GOTM 17: Alexanderhttp://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/info/leaders/leaders0000.jpg

A slightly higher difficulty level, and we move to an archipelago map (strong navy NOT OPTIONAL! ;)).

This game MUST be played in patch version 1.61. We will NOT accept any games played under any other patch versions, and you can't play it in warlords!

Further, it MUST be played using HOF mod version 1.61.011. (http://hof.civfanatics.net/civ4/mods/HOF-1.61.011.exe)




Game settings:
Civilization: Greece (Leader: Alexander ; Traits: Aggressive, Philosophical)
Rivals: 5
Difficulty: Monarch
Map: Archipelago
Mapsize: Standard
Climate: Tropical
Water level: Low
Starting Era: Ancient
Speed: Epic
Options: <none>
Victory Conditions: all enabled

Alexander:
Alexander is Aggressive and Philosophical; starting with Hunting and Fishing. Aggressive allows a free combat 1 promotion for melee & gunpowder units, and double production speed of barracks and drydocks. Philosophical provides a 100% bonus to the generation of great people, as well as double production speed of universities.

Unique unit: Phalanx:
The Phalanx replaces the standard spearman. The strength is increased by 1 to 5, and the cost remains the same. In addition to the 100% bonus against mounted units, the phalanx also gets a +25% bonus when defending hills.

The starting screenshot is here (click for a bigger version!)
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/civ4games/images/gotm17small.jpg (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/civ4games/images/gotm17large.jpg)

Adventurer Class bonuses:

Player starts with knowledge of agriculture.
Player starts with a workboat.



Challenger Class Equalisers:

All AIs start with a bonus technology.

I think my settler is going to walk for a long time, I need to assess the land we have available before settling.

And maybe I will go Cultural, just to go against ainwood and make my navy completely optional. :)

I'm usually all for moving, but in this case I can research AGR first and then up to BW for 5 chops.
At size 5 we can work the Rice and 4 Grass hills for 13 spt and still have +1 fpt. With metal nearby (hopefully), that's a very nice early production centre for the capitol.
If a neighbour founds an early religion, I may attack them. If not, Oracle --> CoL have suited me fine in the past.

Of course, scout moves first to see if there's another bonus in the south.

Will we know if the landmass type is random, snaky continents, archipelago or tiny islands?

Of course, scout moves first to see if there's another bonus in the south.

It seems more important to move W-NW to see if there's another bonus in the west.

If not, then moving SE to the plains hill must be better than settling in place. Trade one turn for an extra hammer every turn for the rest of the game, in an otherwise nearly equivalent position. Maybe you will even pick up an extra resource to the SE by moving, but, even if not, it's a gain.

Moving the scout to the west hill seems like the first thing to do. Then, if there isn't any resource, move the settler to the plains hill. Any resource would mean settling in place.

We're in the southern half of the map. I don't know if that changes anything. With the low sea-level it's possible that there are some large land masses, and we might be on one of them. But, this may be a nautical exercise. So, research to get work boats and then galleys might be a priority. The size of the home island will determine that. An Oracle slingshot to CoL will be my early objective, however.

Monarch will be fun.

We're in the southern half of the map.

How do you know that?

So, research to get work boats and then galleys might be a priority.

I agree. We start with fishing, so workboats can be built immediately if we choose and sailing is one tech away. I think it will be important to get a couple of early exploring workboats out to find the neighbors as well as good city sites.

How do you know that?

The resource icon's arrow always points to the equator.

The resource icon's arrow always points to the equator.

Plus, the bottom left-most tile that you can see the edge of looks like tundra.

This would suggest that there isn't a lot of room on this island with useful tiles. To the north it looks like there might be only one tile above the northern blue circle. Not a lot of land - 2 cities at most on the starting island, maybe.

I'm going to explore more, too - possibly go north west with the settler toward the other blue circle (maybe a marine resource there) and south with the scout?

It seems more important to move W-NW to see if there's another bonus in the west.

If not, then moving SE to the plains hill must be better than settling in place. Trade one turn for an extra hammer every turn for the rest of the game, in an otherwise nearly equivalent position. Maybe you will even pick up an extra resource to the SE by moving, but, even if not, it's a gain.

I'm a bit undecided on that one. I usually move to plains hills if possible, but in this case you end up with only 3 grass hills if you move. I guess I'd move if the coast ends on distance 3 from the capitol in the north, but there's no way of knowing that on the first turn.

Staying in place I can alternate between an irrigated plain and the plain hills at size 6 for an average of 15.5 hammers per turn.

It's just a feeling I have though, so I'd really like to see the maths on this [pimp]

Edit: could that be another plains hill W NW of the start?

This would suggest that there isn't a lot of room on this island with useful tiles. To the north it looks like there might be only one tile above the northern blue circle. Not a lot of land - 2 cities at most on the starting island, maybe.

Unless there are mountains, you can fit at least 4 cities (including the capitol) on the starting island.

Unless there are mountains, you can fit at least 4 cities (including the capitol) on the starting island.

Of course that's true, but it might be only 3 if you settle in place, and the one in the south might be pretty useless if all that's down there is tundra.

It seems more important to move W-NW to see if there's another bonus in the west.

If not, then moving SE to the plains hill must be better than settling in place. Trade one turn for an extra hammer every turn for the rest of the game, in an otherwise nearly equivalent position. Maybe you will even pick up an extra resource to the SE by moving, but, even if not, it's a gain.

I agree. I normally look at the starting map and decide on the best spot without regards to hidden tile. Then I move the scout to reveal tiles that may challenge the number one candidate. Unless the scout reveals a better settling site, I settle on my planned site.

Of course that's true, but it might be only 3 if you settle in place, and the one in the south might be pretty useless if all that's down there is tundra.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/28463/gotm17large_edit.JPG

Looking at that, though... Maybe a move to the plains hill isn't so bad after all :lol:
It gives you many more options for city placements in the north, which probably will be our base of operations :cool:

Preparing for my first GOTM. I guess I'll have a hard time on Monarch with about one week's experience, and I'm yet to even finish a game :crazyeye:

At the moment I'm trying to decide between two possible starts:

1) Scout W-NW, and depending on what's in the west either settling in place or into plains hill.

2) Scout SW-S, and dependng on what's in the south either settling into plains hill or to S-S. It looks to me that those tiles in the south might have grasslands so there could be some good potential there and it would certainly give more room for another city in the north (looks very likely that there is a sea resource and very little land on that direction).

In a way the northern circle looks like the most interesting spot but I guess there's too much to lose on that strategy; at best you miss 2 turns to get a good spot, at worst you miss those turns and end up in a worse spot than you started.

Just recently new to the GOTM (I'm lovin it! <- sorry McDonalds)

Couple of questions that I'm sure have come up before ...

why is the number of rivals, map type, water level, climate, map type etc.. published??? doesn't this kinda give us "an unfair advantage" <- does the AI know this info?

I assume there must be a reason ... just not sure what it is ???


ALSO, any hints etc.. on how the games are setup??? Is there alot of resource manipulation etc.. by the Administrators

thanks fellow Civvers!

1. When will this start?

2. I have been playing Warlords exclusively for a while now but find these games of the month to be very educational and fun. How much trouble do you guys find it to chop and change between the rules of Warlords and Vanilla?

why is the number of rivals, map type, water level, climate, map type etc.. published??? doesn't this kinda give us "an unfair advantage" <- does the AI know this info?

I assume there must be a reason ... just not sure what it is Humans know that info in every game they ever play, not just GOTM ...

Just recently new to the GOTM (I'm lovin it! <- sorry McDonalds)

Couple of questions that I'm sure have come up before ...

why is the number of rivals, map type, water level, climate, map type etc.. published??? doesn't this kinda give us "an unfair advantage" <- does the AI know this info?

I assume there must be a reason ... just not sure what it is ???


ALSO, any hints etc.. on how the games are setup??? Is there alot of resource manipulation etc.. by the Administrators

thanks fellow Civvers!

Welcome!

The staff presents details that are available once you open the save, which usually is provided on the first of every month (WOTM is 15th). You can find the details in the settings (I think it's the victory advisor / settings). Yes, the AI has access to these details, apart from your starting location ;) There are some details that may not be published, such as options in the map type. This enable players to think about what strategy they want to persue.

The reason for providing this info is to engage players to discuss strategies, perhaps bring up rule questions and most important: for players to quarrel about the best initial settlement spot :) It's also useful for players to give some thought of where to move the scout.

The administrators add/remove/move resources and may also change the terrain. I have not detected any pattern. Sometimes it's best to settle on the inital spot, sometimes its a disaster. Take a look at the map, try to predict how large the city will become for certain tiles, if it will be food rich or hammer rich.

Goody Huts in the immediate vicinity are removed as well. One reason is to reduce the chance in the early stages of the game. One other reason is to reduce the temptation for players to reload the game and alter their actions (which is strictly forbidden).

Good luck!

Yes - the manual placement of resources can often be very different to what you experience in normal games. Expect the unexpected!

did anybody else notice the 5 civs we're going against? It's low seas plus few enemies = lots of land to settle eventually. We can already see an island to the east so there will at least be some island hopping that can be done pre-astronomy. Scout W-NW for me before deciding where to settle. 1 bonus food source is a pretty crummy start location.

Welcome!

The staff presents details that are available once you open the save, which usually is provided on the first of every month (WOTM is 15th). You can find the details in the settings (I think it's the victory advisor / settings). Yes, the AI has access to these details, apart from your starting location ;) There are some details that may not be published, such as options in the map type. This enable players to think about what strategy they want to persue.

The reason for providing this info is to engage players to discuss strategies, perhaps bring up rule questions and most important: for players to quarrel about the best initial settlement spot :) It's also useful for players to give some thought of where to move the scout.

The administrators add/remove/move resources and may also change the terrain. I have not detected any pattern. Sometimes it's best to settle on the inital spot, sometimes its a disaster. Take a look at the map, try to predict how large the city will become for certain tiles, if it will be food rich or hammer rich.

Goody Huts in the immediate vicinity are removed as well. One reason is to reduce the chance in the early stages of the game. One other reason is to reduce the temptation for players to reload the game and alter their actions (which is strictly forbidden).

Good luck!


Excellent points ... thankyou Erkon!

I'm enjoying reading these Pre-Game discussions, I've gleaned a few good ideas already :D


And I'm going to need Good Luck in GOTM/WOTM ... some of the GOTM players are unbelieveable :eek: how they get wins so quickly is beyond me :)

The resource icon's arrow always points to the equator.


I noticed that in Warlords, the Resource Icon's always point the same way, regardless of your position to the equator ... anyone else noticed that or is it just me :confused:

Anyone care to make up a test game? :)

I noticed that in Warlords, the Resource Icon's always point the same way, regardless of your position to the equator ... anyone else noticed that or is it just me :confused:

This was a change implemented in Warlords.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/28463/gotm17large_edit.JPG

There look to be trees west of the 4.

The administrators add/remove/move resources and may also change the terrain. I have not detected any pattern. Sometimes it's best to settle on the inital spot, sometimes its a disaster.

I do try to make it so that there is no massive benefit in going somewhere that cannot be reasonably forseen from the starting screenshot. I may make some good 'second city' locations, but in general, I try to avoid anything that gives the 25% of people that randomly choose to go one direction vs the other, a big advantage. May not be perfect in its execution, but this is the intent.

How about settling E? Pop10 gives you 20h base production in your capital!

Edit: Bottom line is that with rice as the only food resource, both the starting position and the plains hill are lousy locations, food poor, commerce scarce. The plains/hill doesn't even boast of a whole lot of hammers. To the S doesn't look promising either--no hammers. Scout W-NW reveals 9 tiles, if no more food resources, settler moves NW.

If ainwood didn't give us any more than 1 food resource per city, then he abviously advocates abolitionism... :lol:

Am I misinterpreting something, or is the screenshot showing the production values for a bunch of black, unexplored, tiles to the east and northeast?

If those values are accurate then they seem to indicate that the island does not extend any further east than we can see, although it might possibly run further north. You can also see that there are coastal tiles two away from any land that we know about, which implies another island or possibly that the island we are on snakes back around in that direction somehow.

Archipelago? I _love_ archipelago. Although I have never played it with low water level, I think I will try my usual "King of the sea" strategy :-)

Am I misinterpreting something, or is the screenshot showing the production values for a bunch of black, unexplored, tiles to the east and northeast?

That's a good point ... we are seeing tiles we shouldn't see. It looks like we are getting the vision that would be provided by a unit on the grasslands hill tile which is N, NE of the scout. Must be the invisible man ... that would be a better UU than our UUU (useless UU).

So, what are some basic ideas to leverage the Aggressive and Philosophical traits?

I do try to make it so that there is no massive benefit in going somewhere that cannot be reasonably forseen from the starting screenshot. I may make some good 'second city' locations, but in general, I try to avoid anything that gives the 25% of people that randomly choose to go one direction vs the other, a big advantage. May not be perfect in its execution, but this is the intent.

I suspected this was the thinking, hoped that it was and am glad to hear it said explicitly. Although it's a fair debate to have (whether moving significantly away from the original stating location should sometimes provide a material advantage), I am in complete agreement with Ainwood's intent as stated. I hope this is the general thinking for the WOTM games as well.

So, what are some basic ideas to leverage the Aggressive and Philosophical traits?

If there's enough food, maybe build the Pryamids, run a specialist economy (with scientists), race to astromomy then crank up the military machine.

If there's enough food, maybe build the Pryamids, run a specialist economy (with scientists), race to astromomy then crank up the military machine.

You usually don't need Astro with these settings, but you need to explore a lot if you want a conquest victory because crossings between the islands can be in strange places, like near the poles.

Hmm... I guess there's an error in the Adventurer Class bonuses. Number one says "Player starts with knowledge of fishing" but Alexander already has that.

You usually don't need Astro with these settings, but you need to explore a lot if you want a conquest victory because crossings between the islands can be in strange places, like near the poles.

You're right. I ran 10 test maps and found that you can almost always reach all the civs with gallys. Culture bridges should breach the gap for the few exceptions.

Hmm... I guess there's an error in the Adventurer Class bonuses. Number one says "Player starts with knowledge of fishing" but Alexander already has that.

Thanks for pointing that out - I had a brain explosion, in that I had added it in to the save I made, so I saw what techs Alex had, but made the wrong assumption about which one I'd given him.

Adventurer class starts with the added tech of agriculture.

You should prolly update what HOF mod version the game will use :)

Is there any way this can be played with Warlords installed? I just got it and would like to install it. Is there a checkbox I can check somewhere to make it play as if Warlords was not installed?

Thanks

Your warlords install will be a seperate program to start.. you can still start the old civ4 program with warlords installed

Am I misinterpreting something, or is the screenshot showing the production values for a bunch of black, unexplored, tiles to the east and northeast?

It looks like there was originally a unit on the hill 2E 1N, and it was relocated by the admins, but we can still see what was previously visible from that hex.

It looks like there was originally a unit on the hill 2E 1N, and it was relocated by the admins, but we can still see what was previously visible from that hex.That's what I was thinking too, and I presume it was the scout since there is no blue circle on that tile ... which leads me to wonder, why was it moved? This realization coming on the heels of ainwood posting that he tries to make it so that no one can "get lucky" by moving initial settler to a location whose advantages aren't obvious after the first move makes me think there must be something significant to be revealed by moving the scout, probably W-NW, but I suppose the same reasoning could lead you to think a SW-SE move might show something too. But I think I'm going W-NW 'cause it looks more promising.

The same reasoning also makes we wonder how good that 2nd blue circle could be -- moving the scout away from there suggests not much. So almost certainly not risking wasting the turns to go there IMO.

What are the odds on the Persians being just around the corner? I bet Ainwood is waiting for 300 to come out here next week. We were the Persians in WOTM7 and we are the Greeks in GOTM17. No coincidence, surely.

This game MUST be played in patch version 1.61. We will NOT accept any games played under any other patch versions, and you can't play it in warlords!

Further, it MUST be played using HOF mod version 1.61.010.

Is this right? On the HoF page, it says the latest version is 1.61.011. Why do we need to use an older version?

No plains hill for me: adventurer class gets a workboat so it seems pretty likely there's a sea resource to the west!

I'm tempted to explore W with the settler first (since I won't want to settle in place), and if disaster occurs and there are no clams/fish/crabs send the scout SW-SE to spot extra resources in the south. The settler could then move SE-SE again to settle on the forest on turn 3 if there are southern bonuses.

(PS, I'm not playing adventurer, just using the adventurer bonus as a point of inference)

What are the odds on the Persians being just around the corner? I bet Ainwood is waiting for 300 to come out here next week. We were the Persians in WOTM7 and we are the Greeks in GOTM17. No coincidence, surely.

There could be another civ close by but it would probably be the exception. I ran a bunch of test maps with only 5 AIs and found on average the closest civ is 20 tiles away.

No plains hill for me: adventurer class gets a workboat so it seems pretty likely there's a sea resource to the west!

Ainwood also gave Agriculture as an Adventurer bonus. Maybe he's thinking earlier farming of the rice for food and using the workboat for early coastal exploration as the bonuses. The blue circle to the north does suggest there is some resource up there.

Ainwood hasn't disclosed the archipelago option chosen. I'm wondering if he picked Tiny Islands from his hint that a strong navy is not optional.

No plains hill for me: adventurer class gets a workboat so it seems pretty likely there's a sea resource to the west!

Perhaps the workboat will be on the east coast.

There could be another civ close by but it would probably be the exception. I ran a bunch of test maps with only 5 AIs and found on average the closest civ is 20 tiles away.

Other civilizations are likely manually placed, not selected and placed by the computer.

Perhaps the workboat will be on the east coast.

I'd guess (hopefully in an educated way) that the workboat will be one square east from the scouts. My reasoning is that there the boat offers least help concerning the initial settling dilemma. If the boat really IS there I'm most probably going to use it as an explorer towards the island(s) in the east.

And yes, I'm going to take the Adventurer Class because it now seems almost certain that this is going to be the first Civ4 game I'll ever finish - or more likely be finished :scared:

Ainwood hasn't disclosed the archipelago option chosen. I'm wondering if he picked Tiny Islands from his hint that a strong navy is not optional.

Thats just a quote from the Computer when you choose Archipelago as a map type. So I woukldn't interpret anything into it.

With a lighthouse that freshwater lake will provide 3 food, sort of a 2nd food bonus. Sailing will be a must, so we might as well build a lighthouse early...

Like others have said, it looks like our best chance for a sea resource and hence a strong capitol lies to the NW. I'll definitely consider settling there after exploring a little.

You should prolly update what HOF mod version the game will use :)

Yep, thanks.

HOF mod version 1.61.011 has been released, and we'll use it for this game. The first post has been updated, including the download link.

Based on the adventurer bonus I think it would be best to move the settler. I assume the work boat is given to serve a purpose, and the original settler location has no sea resources that I can see.

the original settler location has no sea resources that I can see.

Is 2W 1N water, or land? This will be obvious when the actual save file is available (if it's water then you can see the waves moving against the coast).

I would guess that the workboat will be positioned in a location that reveals a seafood resource. But we (non-adventurer players) don't know where that will be.

But doesn't it also seem likely that the workboat was added for exploration and/or helping to get the circumnavigation bonus of +1 sea movement?

I would guess that the workboat will be positioned in a location that reveals a seafood resource. But we (non-adventurer players) don't know where that will be.

Actually, its directly due-east of the scout. Reason being that, call me paranoid, but people may load the adventurer save to try and get a heads-up on where to settle.

As a general announcement, please note that we would consider this (loading adventurer save to see more of the map) against the rules.

Reason being that, call me paranoid, but people may load the adventurer save to try and get a heads-up on where to settle.

As a general announcement, please note that we would consider this (loading adventurer save to see more of the map) against the rules. I suppose it is no more paranoid than asking us not to post shots of modern resources in the final spoiler (where reading condition is completed and submitted?) :crazyeye: I always find that non-sequitur sadly amusing.

Maybe worth posting the prohibition of this abuse of the adventurer save in the overall rules list and in the disallowed exploit thread?

dV

@DaviddesJ, if you wouldn't mind sharing this, I'm curious how you evaluate whether to accept the Challenger Class save in this situation. How does the extra tech affect your game? Are there benefits that you will try to take advantage of?

You should prolly update what HOF mod version the game will use :)
I'm new the GOTM thread, so apologizes up front for asking a stupid question. What is the HOF Mod? I got that it stands for Hall of Fame, but haven’t been able to find any details on it. Thanks in advance for the help.

-Jason

@DaviddesJ, if you wouldn't mind sharing this, I'm curious how you evaluate whether to accept the Challenger Class save in this situation. How does the extra tech affect your game? Are there benefits that you will try to take advantage of?

Excuse me to sneak in my opinion, although not asked for. In this game, the Challenger Class save is unfavourable if your aiming for a conquest victory or an early religion. For all other victories, I think Challenger enables an earlier victory date.

Regarding settling site: does it really matter if there is a sea resource to the west? The plains hill will provide the worker four turns earlier compared to settling on initial tile, and five turns earlier compared to the hill W/NW.

The most favoured candidate of opening sequence according to me is: settle on plains, build worker, research agriculture, then research mining, build scout, then build settler and research ???. I will call this sequence S1.

Now, if you settle towards a sea resource (lets call that scenario S2), and start with a work boat, you will get it it five turns after the worker in S1. The fishing nets will thus come on line on the same turn as the rice. Now, the rice is irrigated and provides as much food as clam and one less than sea. However, the worker then builds a mine in S1 while the S2-city builds a worker. My gut feeling is that S1 will get better production faster than S2, and will get the settler out faster than S2. Can someone prove me wrong?

The most favoured candidate of opening sequence according to me is: settle on plains, build worker, research agriculture, then research mining, build scout, then build settler and research ???. I will call this sequence S1.

The scout probably won't be much use without a galley to get it across the water.

What is the HOF Mod?

http://hof.civfanatics.net/civ4/mod.php

In this game, the Challenger Class save is unfavourable if your aiming for a conquest victory...But why? I'm curious how do you think that through?

Regarding settling site: does it really matter if there is a sea resource to the west?You're talking about a capital with 1 food resource that is also the weakest possible type of resource: +2f, +0g. This city will grow very slowly to its low limits. Furthermore, the plains/hill site only has 3 grass hills available for production. It's low commerce, low food, average hammers. Its only plus, to me, is the +2h in city center.

Why not S3--settle with 2 food resources and start with a wkr? Sure it pops 4 turns later, but relatively soon the city wiil overtake S1 when it gets the second food online. Plus, the food resource also provides +1-2g.

So it would seem to me, not having tried it out.

@DaviddesJ, if you wouldn't mind sharing this, I'm curious how you evaluate whether to accept the Challenger Class save in this situation. How does the extra tech affect your game? Are there benefits that you will try to take advantage of?

The effects of the extra tech are really minimal, imho. The only significant difference is that it makes it less likely to get an early religion, if you go for that. Other than that, the effect may be mildly positive in that the AIs will be a little bit less behind and have slightly better technologies for trade. But it's such a small difference that I can't see it really affecting play much.

P.S. I'm not going to play this one, either way. If I did, I'd certainly play challenger, just because I find the game more fun when the AIs are less far behind. But it's not enough of a difference to motivate me.

The scout probably won't be much use without a galley to get it across the water.

The scout is only for fog busting. I want one unit to the north and one to the south. I also want to find a suitable site for the second city. It's all depending on the map.

The scout is only for fog busting.

Then why not build a warrior, which costs the same, can fight animals if necessary, can fight barbarians if one does happen to show up in a gap, and is also useful for happiness in your cities when you no longer need the fogbusting?

I just can't see the advantage of a 2nd scout rather than a warrior. Maybe I'm missing something.

You're talking about a capital with 1 food resource that is also the weakest possible type of resource: +2f, +0g. This city will grow very slowly to its low limits. Furthermore, the plains/hill site only has 3 grass hills available for production. It's low commerce, low food, average hammers. Its only plus, to me, is the +2h in city center.

Why not S3--settle with 2 food resources and start with a wkr? Sure it pops 4 turns later, but relatively soon the city wiil overtake S1 when it gets the second food online. Plus, the food resource also provides +1-2g.

So it would seem to me, not having tried it out.

Regarding the extra tech from Challenger Class: If you're aiming for a conquest victory, you will probably want to focus on production, not research and exploration. You probably want to time the alphabet with contact with the AI. If you build an army, you delay alphabet and exploring ships. And you probably want a certain tech level of the AI the moment you want to trade with him. If you are too early with alphabet, you wont get much from it. The same is true if you're too late. I prefer to trade writing first to fill up the cheap tech, then alphabet for the more expensive techs. If I go for conquest, I will be too late with alphabet in Challenger Class. If I go for something else, Challenger Class is an advantage.

Regarding S3: You are correct that your city is better long term, but that was not my point. When does S3 generate a settler? The S3-worker is 5 (not 4) turns behind the S1-worker. The settler in S1 will start 10 or 11 turns after the worker, that is 5 or 6 turns after the worker in S3. You need 45 hammers for the work boat. You get 1 hpt for about 10 turns. Then you are at size two, 10 hammers into the work boat and about five turns behind the S1-settler schedule. Your mine will come online in another five turns, so at that time, you have 15 hammers into the work boat and I have ten turns of settler production. Without further estimation, I believe that the S1-city will be built a lot of turns ahead of the S3-city.

Am I wrong?

Then why not build a warrior, which costs the same, can fight animals if necessary, can fight barbarians if one does happen to show up in a gap, and is also useful for happiness in your cities when you no longer need the fogbusting?

I just can't see the advantage of a 2nd scout rather than a warrior. Maybe I'm missing something.

I forgot that Alexander is aggresive. The difference in strength on plains is 2.2 for scout against animals and 2.6 for warriors against animals. On hills/forests, the warrior is even better. So, you're your probably right, a warrior is better.

The only reason for the scout is that it moves faster, and is better at hut-popping. But the scout can be built later, so I'll go for the warrior instead. Thanks.

You probably want to time the alphabet with contact with the AI.

If you are too early with alphabet, you wont get much from it. The same is true if you're too late.

I don't understand this. I would expect to make contact with several opponents way before Alphabet. The issue, though, is that if they don't make contact with each other, then they will perceive a monopoly and not trade with you. That's not something you can do much about---but, if anything, extra techs will help accelerate them and make them more available to trade.

I would agree that if you plan to conquer an early opponent with axes or swordsmen, then challenger will probably be a bit harder. But I'm not sure that's the fastest route to an overall conquest victory. You can probably find several empty islands to build cities on. And, if you're going as far as macemen and catapults before launching a war, I don't think the early techs will make much difference.

I don't understand this. I would expect to make contact with several opponents way before Alphabet...

Yes, but "way before" is related to the time you get alphabet. So, in absolute years, the "way before" date will be earlier if you go down the research & exploration path compared to the Kill Them All path (which focuses less on research & exploration). My point was basically that cultural/diplomatic/space victories will be achieved earlier in Challenger Class compared to Contender Class, because you can trade for more tech in the BC-years. In the AD-years you probably have to gift tech to the AI anyway to finish early.

So, in absolute years, the "way before" date will be earlier if you go down the research & exploration path compared to the Kill Them All path (which focuses less on research & exploration).

I just don't see any difference. Unless you're planning to attack people super-early, your path of development in the early game is going to be basically the same either way. You're going to need contacts either way.

Actually, if you're playing for a space race, that might be a reason to defer making as many contacts, because you would like to be able to trade for some early, cheap techs without raising your WFYABTA limit with other civs. If you're planning on early conquest, then you might as well meet everyone, if you can. So that's just the opposite of what you said.

plains hill plus rice
worker - warrior - settler

turn 1 city size 1, work rice (+3f 2h 2c), start worker
turn 18 worker complete, begin warrior, start farm
turn 25 finish farm, work rice (+5f 2h 2c)
turn 27 worker does something else
turn 29 finish warrior, begin settler
turn 50 settler finished, start working on something else
turn 53 city size 2
turn 60 city size 3

grassland hill plus rice plus clams
worker - warrior - workboat - settler

turn 1 city size 1, work rice (+3f 1h 2c), start worker
turn 23 worker complete, begin warrior, start farm
turn 30 finish farm, work rice (+5f 1h 2c)
turn 32 start mine on plains hill
turn 33 city size 2, work rice & grassland forest (+5f, 2h, 2c)
turn 37 finish warrior, finish plains mine, begin workboat, work rice & plains mine (+3f 5h 2c)
turn 39 worker does something else
turn 42 city size 3, work rice & plains mine & grassland forest (+3f 6h 2c)
turn 46 workboat finished, start warrior
turn 47 workboat fishes clams, work rice & plains mine & clams (+5f 5h 4c)
turn 50 warrior finished, start settler
turn 65 settler finished

I'd say the advantage for the early game goes to the plains hill city. By turn 65, it has produced worker, warrior, settler and 15 turns toward something else - so production is roughly equal. However, the plains hill city gets a 5 turn advantage on the worker and a 15 turn advantage on the settler. If you allow the worker to chop, it favors the plains hill city even more.

Actually, if you're playing for a space race, that might be a reason to defer making as many contacts, because you would like to be able to trade for some early, cheap techs without raising your WFYABTA limit with other civs. If you're planning on early conquest, then you might as well meet everyone, if you can. So that's just the opposite of what you said.

I would appreciate it if you could elaborate a bit on that. I only have a basic grasp on WFYABTA.
From your words I extract the conclusion that if you trade techs with civ A, but you haven't still made contact with civ B, then the trade raises the counter towards WFYABTA for civ A, but not for civ B. Is that right?

From your words I extract the conclusion that if you trade techs with civ A, but you haven't still made contact with civ B, then the trade raises the counter towards WFYABTA for civ A, but not for civ B. Is that right?

That is correct. There's a counter for each civ. Whenever you receive a technology in trade, the counter is incremented for every civ that you have met so far.

This doesn't really make much sense, imho, but that's how the code works. It means it can be advantageous to avoid meeting some civs until later in the game.

I'd like to add a few thoughts on the map, and how it might affect the game.

I've been playing a few practice games, and also looking into WorldBuilder (though I haven't made a mock-up of anything approximating the actual start yet).

I have been assuming that ainwood hasn't modified the overall structure of the map too much from what would be generated. If I'm wrong on that one, then all bets are off of course, and my other assumptions are not going to work.

The map looks like one that would come from archipelago-archipelago rather than archipelago-tiny islands. The land is broader than normally appears on the tiny island setting, and you also scarcely ever find those small freshwater lakes except on achipelago setting.

Having assumed that, then the normal start islands are usually significantly larger than we can see here. (I know, I'm getting further off the track here, and the chances that ainwood has manually placed the civs is much higher than the chance of the land-masses having been greatly redrawn)
So, if we have a larger island, where does it go?
The south doesn't look good. As somebody pointed out, that is a tundra tile just visible to the SW. However, in many of the maps I saw the islands extended south through a tundra region to touch the polar ice. That wouldn't be nice, but I'm kind of expecting there to be some of that.
To the north, we can see coastline at the western edge, and (probably) to the north of the jungle tile, so the land evidently narrows to just 2 tiles at that point. We can see that the western of those 2 tiles continues north, but the eastern is divided by water. I think this water is where the river continues, turning east to the coast. This shape of island is not uncommon, and I would place a fair chance (maybe 60-70%) that our land broadens again to the north, allowing space for more cities. Of course, the jungle will begin about here, but that shouldn't worry a set of determined workers with ironworking.

Other things I have found from the typical maps are:

We seem to have plenty of smaller islands around to colonise if we wish, usually without competition.

The nearest AI is quite some distance away (as someone pointed out - 20 tiles or so) and I found you really have to make a concerted effort if you want to meet them early. I would guess a couple of workboats and a couple of galleys, too. Otherwise you can miss them and spend a tedious time mapping out the world wondering if you forgot to specify any AI at all!

You are almost certain not to have the resources you want on your home island. Maybe one of the hidden ones (copper, iron, horse) is all you'll get. Sometimes none. You'll often have to colonise nearby islands simply to get these resources.

I have found the AI travelling long distances to plant cities in my own backyard if there is a good resource there. This is just stupid, of course, as they just make themselves ripe for a quick and easy strike. If this happens in the real game I'll just welcome it.

As I said at the start, these could all be meaningless ramblings if the map has been manipulated unduly. Thought I'd let you know what I'd been up to, though.

Hmm. Seems one of those assumptions is definitely wrong. I really should check my facts before posting. :blush:

You can get those one-tile lakes on the 'tiny island' setting. In fact you get them quite often.

I guess I was just unlucky when I generated my tiny island maps for comparison (or I didn't look at enough of them before discarding them as an option).

plains hill plus rice
worker - warrior - settler

turn 1 city size 1, work rice (+3f 2h 2c), start worker
turn 18 worker complete, begin warrior, start farm
turn 25 finish farm, work rice (+5f 2h 2c)
turn 27 worker does something else
turn 29 finish warrior, begin settler
turn 50 settler finished, start working on something else
turn 53 city size 2
turn 60 city size 3


If you'd skip the workboat from the other scenario (Grassland Hill + Rice + Clams) and go with Worker-Warrior-Settler as well you end up with the same situation on turn 60 (or 61 as I get, either one of us is one turn wrong): City Size 3, Worker, Warrior and Settler. Plains Hill has few more turns into 4th build (I calculated that Settler comes on turn 57 on Grassland Hill city, but it's 56 if that one turn error is on my end) but Grassland Hill has better potential.

Turn 23: Worker, Start farming the Corn, Build Warrior
Turn 30: Finish Farm
Turn 32: Start Mining Plains Hill
Turn 34: City Size 2, Work Corn + Grassland Forest
Turn 37: Finish Mine, Work Corn + Mine
Turn 38: Finish Warrior, Start Settler
Turn 57: Finish Settler, Start Something
Turn 61: City Size 3

More and more I'm starting to lean on either settling to place or moving W. Definetely my scout will start by W-NW, I'm totally done with my exploring the south idea ;)

Could someone please tell me what WFYABTA stands for? I get that it relates to tradability of techs. Maybe I am blind, but I scrolled back and forth an still couldn't figure it out.

Could someone please tell me what WFYABTA stands for? I get that it relates to tradability of techs. Maybe I am blind, but I scrolled back and forth an still couldn't figure it out.

We Fear You Are Becoming Too Advanced. Something the AI has as an excuse not to trade tech. This will occur when you have traded a lot, although it is not definite. I've experienced an AI dropping his WFYABTA-stance to "yeah, lets trade".

[QUOTE=Erkon]Originally Posted by Erkon
In this game, the Challenger Class save is unfavourable if your aiming for a conquest victory... [LowtherCastle]But why? I'm curious how do you think that through?[LowtherCastle]

I can't say I follow Erkon and DaviddesJ's discussion about Alphabet etc., but it does seem to me that if you are trying for a fast Conquest your ideal is to have the AIs be backwards and isolated, so you can beat them through sheer firepower and smart tactics without having to develop advanced units. The same would seem to apply to Domination, but too a lesser extent.

Whereas if you're trying for a Space Race or Diplomatic win, especially the former, you're going to need to acquire a lot of technology. Smart trading with the AIs is essential to moving through the tech tree at top speed. And while the extra techs will give the AI a headstart, all that means is they will have more technologies to trade with you when you beeline your way to something they want.

Cultural victories also require a fair amount of research, at least the way most people play them, but not nearly as much as Space Race or Diplomatic. Still, I'm not so sure I agree with Erkon that the AI having a leg up on technology is a benefit for a Cultural player. As he pointed out it means the AIs are likely to beat you to the early religions. You might want to found those yourself when playing for Culture. They'll have something of an advantage when it comes to Confucianism, Judaism, and even Christianity, too. A Cultural game where you fail to found any of those five religions could be tough, especially on an island map where religions may not spread as easily on their own.

For what it's worth! I'm not the best worldbuilder... :mischief:

For what it's worth! I'm not the best worldbuilder... :mischief:

Arrgh! Is this map designed to depress us so much that when we see the real one we are pleasantly surprised!?

I've just started (only the first few moves so far) and I'll give it a try up to 500BC to get a feel for it.

My first impression is that it's a bit unkinder to the player than most of the randomly-generated trials that I've been looking at. However, none of mine are attempting to match the visible start location.

Thanks for your efforts tho. I find WorldBuilder a touch slow and frustrating to use, so I can appreciate the work.:thanx:

I have now released HOF-Mac-1.61.011 for the Mac players out there. The saves for GOTM 17 are set up to use this new version of the HoF Mod, which fixes a lot of bugs and adds some new features.

There's also a new version for Warlords, HOF-Mac-20.8.004, that will be used for WOTM 8.

Both versions are downloadable in the Mac forum thread.

Arrgh! Is this map designed to depress us so much that when we see the real one we are pleasantly surprised!?


Well, erm... I added a little land mass without adding any extra resources. Other than that, it's just how it loaded! It does seem kind of "worst case", but you never know, right? :eek:

... It does seem kind of "worst case", but you never know, right? :eek:

Quite right. It should be available on the 1st, shouldn't it? Well, in a few hours time we'll be looking at the actual one. I do feel that the GOTM authors like to add their own stamp to the map - something interesting here and there - something quirky (hopefully not cruel) to give us a problem or two to solve.

Anyway, I had a play through this map, and I was fairly awful. Me, not the map, take note. I think if I have got anything from this one it is to be far more careful than I was here about getting the most out of the meagre resources. I basically suffered from low food and low productivity. I failed to get the wonders I went for. Never built a big enough force to mount any early attacks. My only achievement was circumnavigation.
That won't win it for me!

Following are the changes with HOF V1.61.010. The new "field of view" option is kind of neat ... it allows you to see more territory before you zoom out to space and I like that.


Upgrade from V1.61.010 to V1.61.011

Changes:
fixed - Changed code for unit movement on plot owner change, city flip and city capture to match the code in warlords
fixed - Changed code for Gifting transport with units in it to match the code in warlords
fixed - Bugfix for defensive pacts flipping state of permanent peace into permanent war
fixed - Added fix for loosing visibility from satelite tech when regenerating maps in Future ages
fixed - ALT-g regeneration not checking canRegenerate function
fixed - redundant HOF Warning message (possible cause of warning lagging from prior game)
fixed - Mod. Special Domestic Advisor: Production (Hammer) column not sort correctly
fixed - Exotic Foreign Advisor: rewrote Technology screen tech logic
fixed - MoreCiv4lerts Tech Trades one turn lag - Changed how Tech Trading alert was being trigger to get it to run after tech updates
fixed - MoreCiv4lerts Culture expansion message not display when culture would equal threshhold - change check to >=
fixed - Exotic Foreign Advisor: HolyCity check when Civ has No religion - (lustus code snippet)
fixed - "Delay for Upate" typo in HOF options
fixed - Autolog onChangeWar python error

added - Enhanced Unit Icons to show pending promo and unit actions - ruff_hi mod
added - Option to dynamically alter Field of View parameter (Gyathaar SDK change)
added - Additional autolog features from ruff_hi mod's version.
- Silent Option (default off) - start Autolog without prompt for name. use defualt named
- Default Log File Name (default off) - use Player Name (i.e. joe.txt) instead of "autolog.txt"
- Show IBT (default off) - inserts "IBT" comment at the end of human turn and prior to computer turns
- First Turn 1 (default off) - integrated turn count start number from Clock Text mod with Autolog
- Log Civics (default on)
- Log Attitude (default on)
added - Options Screen - increase screen size to accomadate new options (autolog, Civ4lerts, Unit icons, etc.)
added - ALT-A to manually check domination and tech trades

For what it's worth! I'm not the best worldbuilder... :mischief:

Looks good to me and thanks for the practice game. After the first few moves we should know how the island is laid out and your test game can easily be updated to reflect the actual conditions. I find it very helpful to practice the early game.

Note: Some of the items from the above list rely on the Windows-only DLL, and are not available in the Mac version.

Looks good to me and thanks for the practice game. After the first few moves we should know how the island is laid out and your test game can easily be updated to reflect the actual conditions. I find it very helpful to practice the early game.

No problem... I'm always asking for other people to make them, so I make them every few games, too. Seems only fair. :)

We Fear You Are Becoming Too Advanced. Something the AI has as an excuse not to trade tech. This will occur when you have traded a lot, although it is not definite. I've experienced an AI dropping his WFYABTA-stance to "yeah, lets trade".

Thanks for the info.

One more thing, when do the GOTM's usually start?
Is it a manual thing that happens to make them available, or is it automatic in which case any idea when GMT they become available (I am wondering if I should stay up and wait for it, or go to bed and start tomorrow).

We Fear You Are Becoming Too Advanced. Something the AI has as an excuse not to trade tech. This will occur when you have traded a lot, although it is not definite. I've experienced an AI dropping his WFYABTA-stance to "yeah, lets trade".

It is "definite" in that the counter for each civ always increments when you make a trade after meeting it.

However, the counters will also randomly decrease over time, and this effect is not entirely predictable.

There are several threads on this, including a good recent one:

Wfyabta (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=206578)

@petritis: Midnight server time ... if the Game Master gets the release page together in time.

The server's on UTC-4 currently.

Thank you, DaviddesJ. I didn't know that.
Still wondering if it has some major implications, I can't seem to find any.