I read on gamespot one of the new CIV's introduced in the 2nd expansion was the Netherlands. Im from the Netherlands myself so I am anxious to get the 2nd part.

I was wondering what leader, UU and UB there will be available for Holland, this is my guess:

CIV leader: Willem van Oranje Nassau (Founder of the Netherlands as a country, First King also I think, before him the land was divided by landlords)
Economic, Agressive.

Unique unit- A VOC ship. (Our glory days were in the colonial age, we plundered the world with our small VOC ships. Also we had an 80 year war with Spain which is maybe a nice scenario?)

Unique building- Probably something economic, like a better bank.

Favourite CIV should be free speech and/or free religion, u can say and do almost anything in this small country.

Any other Ideas?

Maybe a "Coffee :smoke: House" for the UB?

Well I am a Canadian with Dutch roots :D , and I will wager that the Dutch leader's traits will be Finacial and Organized OR Financial and Creative.

A scenerio against Spain would be cool. Isabella has been spectacularly rude to me in past games, I would luv to teach her a lesson! :lol:

The Coffee House UB is sooo :mischief: ;) Seriously, I have no idea what the Dutch UU will be, I doubt it will be a ship since all UU's in Civ IV are land units... and the UB I agree will probably be a financial building like a variant of the bank. You know, a train station could be an interesting concept for a wealth bonus in Dutch cities. Or if they introduce canal building as a new worker function, maybe the dutch would get a variant building that boosts canal construction?

Civ IV is very modable so I am hoping they are creative with all the new features!

one my ex girlfriends was dutch. so id say aggressive and imperialistic.

one my ex girlfriends was dutch. so id say aggressive and imperialistic.

:lol: yeah I know, we Dutch guys should have warned ya... the women folk in my family (mother, sister, aunts, grandmothers,...) are definitely NOT - er - "timid" :mischief: :scared: :hide:

:D

one my ex girlfriends was dutch. so id say aggressive and imperialistic.

Welcome to holland !

Well the women CAN"T be timid.......... Someone over there has to hold the fort down. LOL

one my ex girlfriends was dutch. so id say aggressive and imperialistic.:lol: ;) That's why, as a dutchman i have a latin girlfriend :D

I don't want to jump on the OP author, but he has some serious wrongs in his OP ;)

1. Willem van Oranje was not the founder of The Netherlands.
2. Neither was he the first king, he was, and stayed, nothing more then a steward, it was the later King Willem I who became the first king.
3. Agressive as a trait? Seriously, the dutch agressive?
4. Our VOC ships 'plundering'? Nah, it was more trading all over the world, and indeed, in those days that included some stuff that isn't acceptable in our days anymore

For the rest it's a nice overview of the nation :D

Coffee Shop as a UB sounds great, +3 unhealthy faces and +3 happy faces, and your cities grow half as fast as normal, something like that? :D

Coffee Shop as a UB sounds great, +3 unhealthy faces and +3 happy faces, and your cities grow half as fast as normal, something like that? :D

And you get a lot of American tourists.

I demand the red light district as UB

It would be nice if Johan de Witt would be the Dutch ruler instead of Willem van Oranje. Afterall, Johan turned the Netherlands into a superpower of that time. To make Willem I the ruler (who was indeed the first king) would be strange; because of him the Belgians declared independence and the empire broke down. Besides that the best times of the Netherlands were in the time of the Dutch republic.
But more than likely Willem van Oranje (Fin/Phi) will be the Dutch ruler in the new CIV IV expansion.

UU is always difficult to choose for the Dutch. As long as this time it is a DUTCH unit and not some kind of Central European mercenary (not a knock on the Swiss, a UU should just be of the same nationality).

If the Flemish are included with the Dutch, the most likely UB would be the stock exchange, since the concept was developed there, but this is already owned by the English. So then I think the Dutch should do well with a coffee shop. ;)

Don't speak around me about Dutch girls. First I thought all girls were slutty and had the illusion that they are superior, but that only holds for Dutch girls. Now I have an American girlfriend (although luckily she is not a stereotype American girl). :)

Maybe there wille be some new treats introduced. Maybe trader. Extra trade routes> Because that will fit the dutch.

I don't want to jump on the OP author, but he has some serious wrongs in his OP ;)

1. Willem van Oranje was not the founder of The Netherlands.
2. Neither was he the first king, he was, and stayed, nothing more then a steward, it was the later King Willem I who became the first king.
3. Agressive as a trait? Seriously, the dutch agressive?
4. Our VOC ships 'plundering'? Nah, it was more trading all over the world, and indeed, in those days that included some stuff that isn't acceptable in our days anymore


Ok your probably right about willem v Oranje, Thought he was the King but everyone was called Willem those days.
I think the dutch 'were' agressive, the dutch way of trading was like barging onto shore and claiming the area and shooting anyone who resisted. In my book that is plundering.
Even now our government supports George Bush with his wars(not the common people tho) . Now we dont come with wooden ships but with helicopters and missles to make the islam world democratic.. I think that is an agressive approach.
But the dutch common ppl arent that aggressive (apart from most woman), Its a bit like the shire here and we hobbits drink smoke complain and bore ourselves to death. :beer:

I think that just like in Civ3, they put Netherlands and Portugal in expansion because of scenario. There will be probably a scenario about 'new world' and they needed the countries that was 'discovering' those new continents.

It's great that there are new civs, but when will we know full list - I'm anxious to see it, maybe it will invalidate our petition (link in sig) :) (I hope)

Yay for the Netherlands, I will be buying this expansion.

As a Belgian, I'm looking forward to defeating the Dutch time and time again :D
(probably playing as the Germans :p )

Privateers and Coffee Shops here we come!

As a Belgian, I'm looking forward to defeating the Dutch time and time again :D
(probably playing as the Germans :p )

There must be a reason why they dont make a CIV from Belgium. Hard to find a historical important belgium figure. Oh wait I forgot Urbanus..:lol:

Well, the Belgians could have Filip de Winter as their leader, or should it be a Flemish civilization then? :D

Well, the Belgians could have Filip de Winter as their leader, or should it be a Flemish civilization then? :D
No thanks.

But about the topic of the possibility of a Belgian civilization in CivIV: In the 19th century, Belgium was one of the most industrially evolved countries in the world (e.g. the first country on the European continent to have railroads). The people living in the area that's now Belgium have always been part of bigger empires (the Romans, the French, the Spanish, the Austrians, even the Dutch, ...), but they never aspired to be a world power themselves, maybe except for King Leopold II, who conquered the Belgian Congo all for himself. To be short: I don't see why a Belgian civilization would be needed in Civ IV...

Of course in the late middle ages, the region that is now Belgium was one of the most important regions in Europe. Cities like Antwerp and Ghent were amongst the biggest European cities and the level of culture was extremely high (music, painting, architecture...). The whole area of Belgium and Holland was referred to as "The Low Countries" and only after the reformation and the war with the spanish, the North and South started to become separated, and the economic centre started to shift to the North (from Antwerp to Amsterdam), leading to the Dutch Golden Age.

In terms of Civ, I would much rather think that a civilization called 'The Netherlands" would refer to the Low Countries from the 15th/16th century, so including Both the Northern Netherlands and the Southern Netherlands (= Flanders, Brabant, and also the parts that are now French-speaking like the county of Henegouwen/Hainaut, the prince-bishopric of Liege, the Grand-Duchy of Luxemburg and parts of Flanders that are now part of France).

In terms of gameplay, this could be explained is if the Southern part of the Netherlands was lost to the Spanish Empire (and with a difference in religion between the southern and northern cities). tis might even make a nice scenario? :)

Hard to find a historical important Belgium figure. Oh wait I forgot Urbanus..
the first names that would come up are:
King Leopold II (although I don't like him that much because of the awfull things he did in Africa)
Count Guy de Dampierre (Gwijde van Dampierre in Dutch) who beat the French in 1302
Count Godfrey of Bouillon (Godfried van Bouillon in Dutch) who lead the first cruscade and became King of Jeruzalem
Spanish King and Holy Roman Emperor Charles V was actually born in Ghent and raised in the Southern Netherlands

besides Willem van Oranje, I couldn't name many historically important Dutch leaders either...

I'm sure they'll go with Billy Orange. What will the starting city be though? How was it in civ III? The other civs so far set a mixed precedent: Japan starts with Kyoto (old capital), Spain with Madrid (new capital). I guess most foreigners would think Amsterdam to be the natural starting city, but that would be weird seeing how new a city it is, though The Hague would hardly make more sense.

Oh, and imagine the spoken dutch in the game. I'm sure it will be delightfully 'tenenkrommend'...

No thanks.

But about the topic of the possibility of a Belgian civilization in CivIV: In the 19th century, Belgium was one of the most industrially evolved countries in the world (e.g. the first country on the European continent to have railroads). The people living in the area that's now Belgium have always been part of bigger empires (the Romans, the French, the Spanish, the Austrians, even the Dutch, ...), but they never aspired to be a world power themselves, maybe except for King Leopold II, who conquered the Belgian Congo all for himself. To be short: I don't see why a Belgian civilization would be needed in Civ IV...

Of course in the late middle ages, the region that is now Belgium was one of the most important regions in Europe. Cities like Antwerp and Ghent were amongst the biggest European cities and the level of culture was extremely high (music, painting, architecture...). The whole area of Belgium and Holland was referred to as "The Low Countries" and only after the reformation and the war with the spanish, the North and South started to become separated, and the economic centre started to shift to the North (from Antwerp to Amsterdam), leading to the Dutch Golden Age.

In terms of Civ, I would much rather think that a civilization called 'The Netherlands" would refer to the Low Countries from the 15th/16th century, so including Both the Northern Netherlands and the Southern Netherlands (= Flanders, Brabant, and also the parts that are now French-speaking like the county of Henegouwen/Hainaut, the prince-bishopric of Liege, the Grand-Duchy of Luxemburg and parts of Flanders that are now part of France).

In terms of gameplay, this could be explained is if the Southern part of the Netherlands was lost to the Spanish Empire (and with a difference in religion between the southern and northern cities). tis might even make a nice scenario? :)


the first names that would come up are:
King Leopold II (although I don't like him that much because of the awfull things he did in Africa)
Count Guy de Dampierre (Gwijde van Dampierre in Dutch) who beat the French in 1302
Count Godfrey of Bouillon (Godfried van Bouillon in Dutch) who lead the first cruscade and became King of Jeruzalem
Spanish King and Holy Roman Emperor Charles V was actually born in Ghent and raised in the Southern Netherlands

besides Willem van Oranje, I couldn't name many historically important Dutch leaders either...

Thnx for the history lesson, although we always call the belgians dumb people I know they are not. And after some thinking I don't remind any dutch leaders worth mentioning either. But in CIV 4 England has queen elisabeth. Well why would she be in the game, because she sits on the trone the longest of all queens?? In that case they might Include Queen Beatrix or Juliana for the dutch CIV. Beatrix has the arrogant look of Elisabeth.

I would also like the Dutch in the expension to include the Southern Netherlands, since in the Southern Netherlands you also have something you could call "Dutch culture". And indeed, I think that Belgian (especially Flemish) accomplishments should not be ignored too much.
And I can think of a better Dutch leader than Willem van Oranje.... Johan de Witt. But this will of course be against the idea of the Southern Netherlands to be included, since when he ruled, the Southern Netherlands were owned by the Spanish. I think that we shouldn't look later in time though. Putting any members of the Dutch royal family (after 1815) in the game would be strange, because the Netherlands declined under the rule of the present monarchy.

I stay with Prince / Stadholder Willem van Oranje (de Zwijger). He was the leader during the the up-rise against Spain. If he hadn't Willem, we wouldn't exist at all.

And he stands for the complete Nassau-dynastie that even rules today. And of course Amsterdam will be the Capital, because it's the most important city since the V.O.C.

I was thinking that the dutch might have some kind of uber-windmills. :king:

A lot of buildings in the game are "claimed" by the unique buildings of other civs but there are going to be more buildings added in the BTS expansion so who knows what the Dutch UB will be.

I can definitely see a Financial/Creative William (the Silent) as the Dutch leader.

The Dutch will rule this game :) - they'll be the "Clockwork Orange" :D (my last name is Bos).

I can see a financial/organized leader being dutch, they were Washington's old traits and they were so deliciously overpowered. The Dutch had a large trading empire back when they owned the east indies, lotsa gold. Their UU will probably be somthing like the civ 3 one, or some kind of ship. I'd like to see a musketman who had a chance to make the killed unit into a slave worker, as the Dutch were big players in the slave trade. I think Firaxis is avoiding naval UUs since they were beyond useless in civ 3, especially on pangea maps. Their UB will probably replace a financial building or maybe a lighthouse, maybe a lighthouse that adds +1 gold in addition to the +1 food?

I know people are joking about the coffee houses, but considering the role the coffee trade played in Dutch history, is it that far-fetched?

I know people are joking about the coffee houses, but considering the role the coffee trade played in Dutch history, is it that far-fetched?
Maybe your not aware of this, but Dutch "coffee houses" actually don't sell much coffee! They sell something completely different... :lol:

But in CIV 4 England has queen elisabeth. Well why would she be in the game, because she sits on the trone the longest of all queens??
I'm pretty sure the Elisabeth in CIV4 is Elisabeth I (who reigned during the 16th century), not the current Elisabeth II... :confused:

Maybe your not aware of this, but Dutch "coffee houses" actually don't sell much coffee! They sell something completely different... :lol:


That's now, I'm talking about then

There must be a reason why they dont make a CIV from Belgium. Hard to find a historical important belgium figure. Oh wait I forgot Urbanus..:lol:

Wasnt Tin Tin and Lucky Luke from Belgium?

Your forgetting Ambiorix a Belgian/Keltic Leader + The Flemisch part of the Netherlands (wich is a part of Belgian) was the richest area of the middle- ages in Europe, city's like Antwerp,Bruges,Ghent where like what are Berlin,Paris and London are now ;)

i know nothing about the Dutch but just so the OP knows economic is not a trait so you might want to edit your first post

i know nothing about the Dutch but just so the OP knows economic is not a trait so you might want to edit your first post

Im not into CIV that long, everyone knows I meant Financial right?

It is a pity that the Flemish and the 'other' Dutch from above the artificial border have so many times at least some animosity between them.

We speak the SAME language for f#@*sake!

Flemish people have made present day Amsterdam so beautiful. Thanks.

Maybe our founding city in the game should be Antwerp. It would confuse the ignorant too much I'm afraid.

Wasnt Tin Tin and Lucky Luke from Belgium?
They were both drawn by Belgians, that's for sure. But I think Lucky Luke is still American ;)

the first names that would come up are:
Count Guy de Dampierre (Gwijde van Dampierre in Dutch) who beat the French in 1302
On second thought, I don't think my French speaking fellow-countrymen would like Guy de Dampierre (count of Flanders) very much as a "Belgian" leader (although he was most likely French-speaking himself - but during the battle of the Golden Spurs in 1302, he was actually taken into custody by the French, and the Flemish troops were led by his son and grandson)

Ambiorix would be a probable leader as well. Maybe he wasn't that important leaders, but through the books of Julius Caesar he's certainly one of the best remembered leaders of the "Belgae" tribes. But of course these have nothing to do with modern-day Belgium; they just happened to live in roughly - and I mean very roughly- the same area

The Netherlands is a tiny nation which had a 100 year lasting golden age around 1700. They were even able to more than match the French and English fleet, mostly overpowering them in battle. They also had the biggest trading fleet. In these days, the Dutch trading fleet was 10 to 20 times bigger then the English and French fleets together. That really did frustrate those nations a lot, because tiny Holland could in no way produce so many vessels. But they could produce more ships than any other nation and there was a simple reason for that.
The Dutch invented a mechanical saw machine which made it possible to precisely saw trees 15 times faster than before. So in stead of three months, it took them only 2,5 days.

That was, although mostly unknown, the biggest reason for their success!!!!

This "saw-machine" was powered by the force of windmills which you could find at the Zaansche Schans in enormous quantities these days.
The wood was brought in from Scandinavia by the Oostzee, which in these days was relatively calm and free of pirates and the English navy.

So regarding unique buildings, one could also increase the benefits of the windmill or the lumber mill a bit more. One could also lower the costs of frigates so that they can be able to produce more ships in less time. Then you have their unique unit.

The great leader in my opinion must be Michiel de Ruyter. If he didn’t defeat the English fleet so many times, Holland, or the Netherlands might never have existed. He truly is: The saver of the fatherland.

The Netherlands is a tiny nation which had a 100 year lasting golden age around 1700. They were even able to more than match the French and English fleet, mostly overpowering them in battle. They also had the biggest trading fleet. In these days, the Dutch trading fleet was 10 to 20 times bigger then the English and French fleets together. That really did frustrate those nations a lot, because tiny Holland could in no way produce so many vessels. But they could produce more ships than any other nation and there was a simple reason for that.
The Dutch invented a mechanical saw machine which made it possible to precisely saw trees 15 times faster than before. So in stead of three months, it took them only 2,5 days.

That was, although mostly unknown, the biggest reason for their success!!!!

This "saw-machine" was powered by the force of windmills which you could find at the Zaansche Schans in enormous quantities these days.
The wood was brought in from Scandinavia by the Oostzee, which in these days was relatively calm and free of pirates and the English navy.

So regarding unique buildings, one could also increase the benefits of the windmill or the lumber mill a bit more. One could also lower the costs of frigates so that they can be able to produce more ships in less time. Then you have their unique unit.

The great leader in my opinion must be Michiel de Ruyter. If he didn’t defeat the English fleet so many times, Holland, or the Netherlands might never have existed. He truly is: The saver of the fatherland.

Was the saw machine invented in the Netherlands? I've never heard that before? What you say does makes sense, I just can't remember it from history lessons. How do you get this info?

I especially like how you state "free of pirates and the English navy", that's humour at it's best ;) :thumbsup:

;) mick

Well, I found it on Wikipedia (my source of historical knowledge ;) ):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_inventions_and_discoveries

Or more specific:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornelis_Corneliszoon

And "saw machine" is maybe a little bit confusing. It was a "sawmill" that was invented by Cornelis Corneliszoon.

Well, I found it on Wikipedia (my source of historical knowledge ;) ):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_inventions_and_discoveries

Or more specific:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornelis_Corneliszoon

And "saw machine" is maybe a little bit confusing. It was a "sawmill" that was invented by Cornelis Corneliszoon.

Ah yes Wikipedia is a brilliant site.
The old sawmill was recently found in het Noorhollands kanaal near Alkmaar in 2004. Lol I live in Alkmaar. I like the sawmill Idea over the coffee shop and the windmill as UB for the dutch CIV. I still stay with Willem van Oranje.

I would prefer an economical building over a production building. Although you give such a building a commerce bonus.

Maybe as an idea: the Forge (not a very good choice... suggestions? Maybe drydock?) should be replaced with the Dutch UB "Sawmill"? It would have the same properties except for a commerce bonus.

Problem is the drydock arrives with metal ships. If the unique building is to be related to increased output of naval vessels then how about a port which gives production bonuses to ships. Personally I would rather an economic building.

Indeed, the drydock comes very late and even if you would introduce it earlier, it wouldn't make sense that a sawmill could increase the production speed of metal ships (later on in the game). :rolleyes:

Maybe a building is being add to BtS in such a way that the Dutch could replace that. This is an awkward solution though.

I was wondering what leader, UU and UB there will be available for Holland
Well, Pim Fortuyn of course! :yeah:

Just kidding. ;) I'd vote for William of Orange.
A little history lesson, especially for the Dutchies here:
The William of Orange was not king, but stadtholder. There were five stadtholders (William I - William V), before the first king, also a William (same family), was installed.

UU: the Swiss Mercenary in Civ3 was ok, but probably not smart to choose the same now. How about a partisan, sort of guerrilla unit during our war of independence against the Spanish? A better boat seems logical, but we were either traders or pirates, which are both non-existant type of ships in Civ4.

UB: how about a better harbour? :yeah: One that gives +15% more trade income, just like England's better bank, the stock market, does. Calling it "haven" would be fun. :p (That's just the Dutch word for "harbour".)

I like the extra trade income with specialised harbours. This empathises the fact that the wealth of the Dutch was generated by trade instead of commerce that a single city generates. It also would encourage the Dutch to adopt "Free market" (extra trade route allowed in cities?), which should also be the favourite civic. I'm going to be pissed off if the favourite civic will be "hereditary rule".:mad:
Now that you mention it, Matrix.... For some reason in Civ 3, William of Orange is "King" (even if you have a republic or democracy). I never got that. This will (hopefully) change.

Well, Pim Fortuyn of course! :yeah:

Just kidding. ;) I'd vote for William of Orange.
A little history lesson, especially for the Dutchies here:
The William of Orange was not king, but stadtholder. There were five stadtholders (William I - William V), before the first king, also a William (same family), was installed.

UU: the Swiss Mercenary in Civ3 was ok, but probably not smart to choose the same now. How about a partisan, sort of guerrilla unit during our war of independence against the Spanish? A better boat seems logical, but we were either traders or pirates, which are both non-existant type of ships in Civ4.

UB: how about a better harbour? :yeah: One that gives +15% more trade income, just like England's better bank, the stock market, does. Calling it "haven" would be fun. :p (That's just the Dutch word for "harbour".)

Heh, that's pretty neat, must be where the English word comes from, makes sense because calling a place a haven for someone would be like a harbour for a ship. Anyways, I think a galleon with extra spaces would work, maybe have 3 extra spaces in a galleon that only accept Missionaries, Great People, and corperation people (however they end up doing that). They could also do a privateer, frigate that displays no nationality but has -20% verses other Frigates. But it'd have to be an aditional unit with normal frigates still available for straight up naval warfare, but the privateer would be good for taking out unprotected galleons. Would make the Dutch AI a pain in the arse for sure.

So will the dutch have the special ability to split the cost of buying a tech from a 3rd party with a 2nd party?

[Hail Agustus Ceasar, do you want to go Dutch on Iron Working with me?]

UU: I think an updated Caravel with increased movement that could carry multiple people makes sense, especially if corporations have missionary-type units in BTS. Giving the Dutch an advantage in setting up colonial corporations makes sense.

If you don't like a naval UU, I like the idea of the Swiss Mercenary in that there is no UU Pikeman in Civ4 yet.

UB: I like the updated harbor, but most ideas make it sound similar to the Cothon. I think giving a Dutch harbor drydock benefits until Steel makes sense and it would allow for synergy with any naval UU.

How about a partisan, sort of guerrilla unit during our war of independence against the Spanish?a "Geus" unit, as these partisans were called, if I remember correctly :) but that would probably unpronouncable for the native-English speakers :D (it sounds a bit like "goose")

a "Geus" unit, as these partisans were called, if I remember correctly :) but that would probably unpronouncable for the native-English speakers :D (it sounds a bit like "goose")

And have 'Gilles the Geus' as CIV leader (its a comic character). :lol:

http://www.stripster.nl/Links/pic/KOLK004.jpg

As far as I know the dutch fleet won from the spanish fleet not because they had more ships, but because their ships were very small. Thus making it very hard to hit for the spaniards who had very large battleships. It was easy for the dutch to hit the spanish vassals, they were huge ( for what Ive read). So maybe make a small warboat with withdrawal chance as UU for dutch CIV.

Geus! That's right. :) Thank you!

@Kietharr: Privateers were fun in Civ3, but I don't see how you could make it a workable UU, because of multiplayer. Too hard to make it unclear who owns what privateer, especially in turn based mode.

@Wolfwindrunner: "spaniards"? http://www.straland.com/images/smilies/what.gif

If you didn't make Privateers a UU, and instead made them a unit anyone can build...

Privateers are invisible units. They cannot attack.

You can move them into an area and set them on "piracy". When set on piracy, they automatically attack any weaker ship that passes within 1 square of them. It then moves in a random direction with any remaining movement points.

If your ship moves into the pirate's square, the pirate is automatically attacked by your ship, even if you can't see it.

I wouldn't want to see a naval UU, as navies as a whole aren't that important in Civ IV (of course this might change in BtS as it sounds like they are overhauling a lot of stuff). Even the Vikings didn't get a naval UU in Warlords.

I found it funny, and the comments about Dutch women aside, what about the traits?

Financial/Organized was removed before due to its strength from Washington.
Elizabeth is currently Financial/Philosophical...

I wouldn't mind seeing a Financial/Creative combo (I think that's unused), but how about we give him Financial/Protective and change one of the Asian countries to a non-Protective trait combo. For variety's sake and discussion...tear it apart! :)



EDIT: On the navies, I don't believe any Civ will ever have a naval UU in the game, being that Firaxis steered clear of naval UUs for Britain and the Vikings, the two other civilizations that perhaps "deserved" a naval UU.

...Maybe as an idea: the Forge (not a very good choice... suggestions? Maybe drydock?) should be replaced with the Dutch UB "Sawmill"? It would have the same properties except for a commerce bonus.

That's the Mali mint if I'm not mistaken. Perhaps a lighthouse that boosts commerce? I'm kind of free-balling this...or maybe a harbor that gives a free merchant specialist? There's an idea!

I am Canadian with a Dutch ancestry. I even had the opportunity to live in the Netherlands for 8 years. I lived in Den Brielle, (voorne putten) ZH.

The mention of geus reminded of the story many natives of Brielle talked about. The watergeuzen who ousted the Spanish or French. Don't recall but I think it was the French. How about that for a UU watergeuzen.

And what of the Batavians.....

EDIT:
Wikipedia reference for watergeuzen:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watergeuzen

It was the Spanish

I found it funny, and the comments about Dutch women aside, what about the traits?

Financial/Organized was removed before due to its strength from Washington.
Elizabeth is currently Financial/Philosophical...

I wouldn't mind seeing a Financial/Creative combo (I think that's unused), but how about we give him Financial/Protective and change one of the Asian countries to a non-Protective trait combo. For variety's sake and discussion...tear it apart! :)



EDIT: On the navies, I don't believe any Civ will ever have a naval UU in the game, being that Firaxis steered clear of naval UUs for Britain and the Vikings, the two other civilizations that perhaps "deserved" a naval UU.

Well, both Indian leaders and both Mongolian leaders are not Protective. If you want to include Persia and Russia as Asian civs too, well they're not Protective either. There - lots of variety.

Financial/Creative for a Dutch leader sounds great because of the seafaring synergy you get with Financial and Creative could perhaps be a nod to great artists like Rembrant and Van Gogh.

Well, Pim Fortuyn of course! :yeah:

Just kidding. ;) I'd vote for William of Orange.
A little history lesson, especially for the Dutchies here:
The William of Orange was not king, but stadtholder. There were five stadtholders (William I - William V), before the first king, also a William (same family), was installed.

UU: the Swiss Mercenary in Civ3 was ok, but probably not smart to choose the same now. How about a partisan, sort of guerrilla unit during our war of independence against the Spanish? A better boat seems logical, but we were either traders or pirates, which are both non-existant type of ships in Civ4.

UB: how about a better harbour? :yeah: One that gives +15% more trade income, just like England's better bank, the stock market, does. Calling it "haven" would be fun. :p (That's just the Dutch word for "harbour".)\

there where more stadthouders, if you count the friesian stadthouders. (the orange branch wich died out now)
Maybey knights or pikeman styled like the army of the duke of burgoundie. Under his leadership the lowlands reached its largest size ever in europe. Till he met an unfortunate end at the swiss, who ended his victory streak.

I liked the Swiss Mercenary Unit but not the name, so I renamed it to Nightwatcher (like in the painting of Rembrandt van Rijn). All the cities had those units and they were Pikeman and Musketeers watching over the cities. And in game the were the best city protecters too. So it fitted perfectly.
But I agree that the Geuzen or Geus would be a perfect Dutch UU. Probably unspeakable for most languages correctly except Dutch, German and French though. The "eu" sound in Dutch is almost the same as the œu in the French word for Sister = Sœur or the German ö in the german town of Köln (Cologne in english).

Dutch Dyke:
Replaces Harbor. Grants +1 production from windmills.

Dutch Dyke:
Replaces Harbor. Grants +1 production from windmills.

A dyke would be great! That is a clever idea; I know lots of "Van Dykes". I don't know about it replacing the harbour, though, that particular structure is still really important to Dutch power on its own. A dyke is kind of like a fortification, one made against the forces of nature, so maybe it could replace walls or castle. Then again those are taken by other civs, so maybe the drydocks? or a new building introduced by BtS?

A dyke would be great! That is a clever idea; I know lots of "Van Dykes". I don't know about it replacing the harbour, though, that particular structure is still really important to Dutch power on its own. A dyke is kind of like a fortification, one made against the forces of nature, so maybe it could replace walls or castle. Then again those are taken by other civs, so maybe the drydocks? or a new building introduced by BtS?

UBs have all of the properties of the original building, with extra bonus's.

So you'd get the usual health and trade bonuses from harbours: but you'd also gain a bonus from windmills.

The Dutch 'Dijk' can be a new world wonder.. Which gives culture, increase of population and health bonus?.

I hope they give whoever is the Dutch leader traits of Financial and Creative - this is the combo Catherine used to have in vanilla, but disappeared from Warlords, and one I enjoyed playing a lot. Plus it will also be fitting for the Dutch. :)

UBs have all of the properties of the original building, with extra bonus's.

So you'd get the usual health and trade bonuses from harbours: but you'd also gain a bonus from windmills.

I think the windmill should replace some non-coastal building (such as granary or maybe grocer - grocer may be more appropriate, as otherwise you will have a "windmill" UB long before you can build windmill land improvements), rather than harbour. It could give some trade bonus (maybe an extra trade route) in addition to the normal granary bonus.

Clearly the Dutch leader should be Jan van Riebeek... And a UU being a Settler called the Hugenoot(sp)... Mind you, they were more French really...

>_>

<_<


Ahem, yes... Born South African of Dutch/Belgium decent. Ignore me...

*Slinks off*

Clearly the Dutch leader should be Jan van Riebeek... And a UU being a Settler called the Hugenoot(sp)... Mind you, they were more French really...

>_>

<_<


Ahem, yes... Born South African of Dutch/Belgium decent. Ignore me...

*Slinks off*

A settler unique unit would be interesting but only for a civ that has been around for a long time and continues today - kind of like the Indians and their fast worker. Settlers and workers are the two units that are at the beginning of the game and retain the same characteristics all game (except workers can build different things).

For the Dutch I think why not add a politician next to Willem of Orange (why not just van Oranje), maybe someone like Den Uyl or Wim Kok...

to be honest, even as a dutchman, Holland hasn't been that influential for that long so maybe Michiel de Ruyer or Johan de Witt, or Willem 1...

As Unique units really some trading or wealth producing unit, that's really the classifying Dutch trait...

If they do make the Dutch UB a Dyke it should confer some sort of health bonus, maybe even eliminating the health penalty for building a city on flood plains.

Now that you mention it, Matrix.... For some reason in Civ 3, William of Orange is "King" (even if you have a republic or democracy). I never got that. This will (hopefully) change.

Actually, iirc the leader of the Dutch in Civ3 isn't William I/Willem van Oranje, but rather William III/Stadtholder Willem III who actually was a king in his time (of England, that is... talking about important other Dutch figures, I guess we have one right there).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_III_of_England

Actually, iirc the leader of the Dutch in Civ3 isn't William I/Willem van Oranje, but rather William III/Stadtholder Willem III who actually was a king in his time (of England, that is... talking about important other Dutch figures, I guess we have one right there).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_III_of_England

Besides, only because the country has a title of "king" does not mean that the country is a monarchy in Civ4 terms - for example, modern UK is ruled by a Queen, but in game terms it would have Universal Suffrage, not Hereditary Monarchy.

True, though it has to be noted that the first real "King/monarch" of the Netherlands lived more than a century later than "King" William III, so keeping that in mind Matrix and Aart of course have a valid point. :)

Btw, any ideas on the Dutch city list? I'm kinda hoping the famous Dutch city of Holwerd will make an appearance once again.. :D

Of course, the downside of the Dutch Dyke is that it reduces population growth.

Baboom, ching.

dutch dyke. we should be able to reclaim land of the sea. let the other wage war for land, w'll make our own.

I agree another Dutch leader would be nice.... but Wim Kok would be ludicrous! (I'm not going to discuss this, because it would invoke politcal debates instead of discussing civ.) I would vote (still) for Johan de Witt.

When I first read "dyke", I interpreted it differently. :blush: :mischief:
If the dyke concept will be add I think "World Wonder" is a little bit overdone. Then they should replace it with the Delta Works. ;)

And I still think that the "Atomium" and "Manneken Pis" should be added to civ as World Wonders. :p (To please our Belgian neighbours :goodjob:)

I think since "Oranje" is such a big part of Dutch culture (sports teams, flags, royal family), a William of Orange will most likely take the leadership position. And an alternate leader like de Witt seems like overkill for a Dutch civ. Besides, the Fatherland is so glorious it only needs one leader in the game :D.

Btw, any ideas on the Dutch city list? I'm kinda hoping the famous Dutch city of Holwerd will make an appearance once again.. :D

Cities of the dutch should be:

Amsterdam Capital
Rotterdam
Den Haag
Haarlem
Den Bosch
Arnhem
Enkhuizen :king:

Are you from enkhuizen? ;)

If they don't add the Dyke as a dutch national building, the delta works really need to be a world wonder.

how bout Almere?

Are you from enkhuizen? ;)

I live very close to Enkhuizen, there was a celebration last year because Enkhuizen existed 650 years. That place still has that colonial look, very nice to visit on a sunny day.

What did Arnhem ever do for Dutch civilization, apart from being destroyed by the Germans ? Nijmegen, Maastricht and Dorestad/Wijk bij Duurstede are much older.I think Utrecht, Leiden, Dordrecht and Alkmaar ( `Bij Alkmaar begint de victorie´ ) would be more worthy candidates, never mind Groningen, Eindhoven and Enschede .

Also, I'd like to see the Dutch Marines as a special unit, They're after all one of the oldest Marine Corps units in the world, and first appeared in one of the most famous Dutch feats of arms, the Raid on the Medway (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raid_on_the_Medway). Make them amphibious Musketeers or something.

Also, I'd like to see the Dutch Marines as a special unit, They're after all one of the oldest Marine Corps units in the world, and first appeared in one of the most famous Dutch feats of arms, the Raid on the Medway (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raid_on_the_Medway). Make them amphibious Musketeers or something.

That's quite a good idea, I like it!

Making a list of cities is for any civ incredibly difficult. What do you have to take into account? I'd say: Population/Size, regional distribution and historical importance. In that order. Then I would suggest the following:
Amsterdam
Rotterdam
Utrecht
The Hague
Groningen
Leiden
Delft
Nijmegen
Middelburg
Maastricht
Den Bosch
Leeuwarden
Zwolle
Arnhem
Enschede
Dorestad
Zaandam
Flushing
Breda
Alkmaar
Apeldoorn
Tilburg
Gouda
Den Helder
Venlo

Making a list of cities is for any civ incredibly difficult. What do you have to take into account? I'd say: Population/Size, regional distribution and historical importance. In that order. Then I would suggest the following:
No Eindhoven? OK, Eindhoven doesn't have a lot of "historical importance", but at the moment it is one of the biggest cities (certainly in terms of production... lots of hammers! and beakers as well: Philips Natlab, etc. :) )

btw, Flushing = Vlissingen I guess?

Just checking in as a Dutch-Canadian, saying hi to all my homies in Brugge.....er I mean Haarlem. I am looking forward to this release, indeed.

I am liking the thoughts of the UB, very interesting. A mill of some sort is good. Would it need to be build in a city that has a river to simulate draining the polderland or would that make it not as useful? Of course mills would have to be added for other civs to make it a UB.

I like the haven idea with trade bonus; that is a winner with me so far.

Nice list Matrix, but you forgot Holwerd... and Lauwersoog of course! ;)

How about Dordrecht? It's the most important city in the history of the dutch

Making a list of cities is for any civ incredibly difficult. What do you have to take into account?

Beam has a nice list iirc.

I think you'd at least have to include the Hanze cities Kampen and Deventer, plus the roman cities Maastricht and Nijmegen. Dorestad. Some flemish cities? But in the end we'll end up with Holwerd again :crazyeye:

BTW, Flushing?

My Citylist for the Dutch;
Amsterdam
The Hague
Utrecht
Rotterdam
Middelburg
Den Bosch
Groningen
Breda
Maastricht
Leeuwarden
Dordrecht
Haarlem
Zwolle
Alkmaar
Roermond
Arnhem
Zutphen
Almelo
Assen
Nijmegen
Delft
Enkhuizen
Kampen
Hoorn
Vlissingen

and of course, we OWN the right to use the color Orange. I think that Willem van Oranje, is the only leader we should use.

We speak the SAME language for f#@*sake!
I disagree, i lived, 26 years, 2 miles from the Dutch-Belgian border. There are a lot of words we 'the dutch' wouldn't use. And i had to ask about the meaning of those words. I think US English and UK English have more in common then the Belgians and the Dutch.

That's why i reject the ideas of the Dutch Language Union. I think the Dutch decided which word is dutch, and which isn't.
The France and England don't ask other countries about their language

A good UU would be Maurician Infantry. Musketeers with first strikes?

As for leaders, I'd like to see Johan De Witt :) although Willem van Oranje or Den Uyl would work for me too. It seems most CIV leaders need a certain amount of glamour and fame though .. as they need to be selling points too ;)

UB? Ugh, now that's a hard one..

I do think the UU must be the Swiss Mercenary/Halberdier. ;)


(Yes, I'm Swiss)

mfG mick