This feature (amongst many others) in the Beyond the Sword expansion has got my interest. How do you think it will be implemented?

I reckon it could require resources to found a corporation and then you might have marketers (:)) which are then used to expand the company to other cities. The civ owning the company then gets extra commerce for every city that the company sells their resource in. So, same as religion but with commerce instead of gold. Also, the company might give a research bonus too and maybe happiness in the city that founds the company.

Franchises would be founded, likely the same way religions are, but I doubt it'll impact diplomacy the way religions do. The question would be the kinds of commerce a corporation would bring in -- straight gold like a religion, or...?

What I think from the BTS Thread

The Implementation of Corporations... they'd probably spread like Religions but if I Were to Implement them, I'd also Add a Share-market Option so the first Civ to research let's say Steel Founds the Ford Motor Company and if another Civ want to Control that Corporation they Can Buy Shares and If they own more then 50% of that Company they can relocate Company Headquarters into any city in their Civilization, As long as the Corporation (Religion thingee has spread to that City)

That or you can control Corporation Headquarters through war instead of Aggressive Financial Power.

I hope they Add More Techs to lengthen the game just little more, not too long, just long enough for Corporations to spread and have an impact on the game like Religion.

I hope they Add More Techs to lengthen the game just little more, not too long, just long enough for Corporations to spread and have an impact on the game like Religion.Maybe corporations would spread faster than religions (which could be considered realistic).

Franchises would be founded, likely the same way religions are, but I doubt it'll impact diplomacy the way religions do. The question would be the kinds of commerce a corporation would bring in -- straight gold like a religion, or...?Maybe commerce and beakers considering they do have a larg impact on technological development.

I hope this figures into a kind of "Economic Victory" condition...maybe when your corporations have a global monopoly or something...

Here's my theory:

After discovering the Corporation, your Great Merchants gain the ability to "Form a Corporation" in one of your cities. This creates a "Corporate HQ" wonder in that city, and consumes the GM plus one resource in your trade network, making it unavailable for the resource benefit to your civ as well as making it unavailable for trade. The Corporate HQ will also generate one "executive" unit (or whatever they choose to call it) for free, and will probably allow you to run Merchant specialists.

The Executive unit is a national unit (maximum 3 per corporation per civ) that can spread your corporation's influence other cities, yielding +1 gpt from cities that already contain the resource, and +3 gpt from cities that don't (making monopolies more profitable). The target city also gains access to that corporation's resource. So if it's an Oil company, for example, that city can now build units that require oil. If the city already has access to that resource, there is no benefit to that city, other than allowing that civ's leader to trade away the resource without penalty.

The Executive can only be constructed in the city that contains the Corporate HQ, unless you're running the Free Market civic, in which case you can build them in any city influenced by the corporation (similar to Organized Religion).

The Mercantilism civic would prevent foreign corporations from being spread to your cities.

If a civilization loses control of the resource upon which the corporation is based, then all benefits from the corporation HQ and all cities influenced by the corporation cease until that resource can be re-allocated to the corporation.

I would also think that, if a city containing a Corporate HQ is captured, it would destroy the corporation and release the corporation's resource.

EDIT: Haha... I can't think of any bigger waste of time than speculating on rules changes that are already designed and that I have absolutely no control over :crazyeye:

Corporations: A new gameplay feature similar to religion that allows players to found companies and spread them throughout the world. Each corporation provides benefits in exchange for certain resources.

I don't know if my interpretation is right, but probably Firaxis has found an interesting way to resolve the problem of having more than 1 resource of the same type which before was nearly useless.How i understand this phrasing is that in the case you have only 1 spice and East India Company corporation available, you have to choose between having 1 spice and not getting bonuses from East India Company or giving 1 spice to East India Company and getting its bonuses.

I would hope that there aren't any corporate missionary equivalents. That the running of the corporation is out of the founders hands even if they still get bonuses for having found the corporation.

I'd be interested if this eventually (patch/mod) leads to a new peace treaty option. The defeated leader agreeing to allow a corporation, founded by the victorious civ, to set up in the his/her cities.

Along with the corporations, we could have some new resources to exploit them. I'm thinking of things like cotton, tobacco.

Steel and aluminium should be refined instead of just magically appearing after discovering the tech. Oil wells really shouldn't double as refineries either. This could be taken to an extreme though, requiring manufacturing of goods such as cannonballs and horseshoes. (Betting this isn't in our future.)

Here's my theory:

After discovering the Corporation, your Great Merchants gain the ability to "Form a Corporation" in one of your cities. This creates a "Corporate HQ" wonder in that city, and consumes the GM plus one resource in your trade network, making it unavailable for the resource benefit to your civ as well as making it unavailable for trade. The Corporate HQ will also generate one "executive" unit (or whatever they choose to call it) for free, and will probably allow you to run Merchant specialists.

The Executive unit is a national unit (maximum 3 per corporation per civ) that can spread your corporation's influence other cities, yielding +1 gpt from cities that already contain the resource, and +3 gpt from cities that don't (making monopolies more profitable). The target city also gains access to that corporation's resource. So if it's an Oil company, for example, that city can now build units that require oil. If the city already has access to that resource, there is no benefit to that city, other than allowing that civ's leader to trade away the resource without penalty.

The Executive can only be constructed in the city that contains the Corporate HQ, unless you're running the Free Market civic, in which case you can build them in any city influenced by the corporation (similar to Organized Religion).

The Mercantilism civic would prevent foreign corporations from being spread to your cities.

If a civilization loses control of the resource upon which the corporation is based, then all benefits from the corporation HQ and all cities influenced by the corporation cease until that resource can be re-allocated to the corporation.

I would also think that, if a city containing a Corporate HQ is captured, it would destroy the corporation and release the corporation's resource.

EDIT: Haha... I can't think of any bigger waste of time than speculating on rules changes that are already designed and that I have absolutely no control over :crazyeye:

I was thinking instead of extra gold they give a bonus reflective of that industry.
-East India Trading Company gives you a 50% bonus to all trade routes with that Corp,
-Ford Motor Company, gives you a 25% production Bonus to all cities with that Corp plus 1 extra movement point too all land units.
-Microsoft, gives you a 10% Breaker/Science Bonus to all Cities with that Corp
-McDonalds, gives 25% Food bonus (Similar to Granary) to all Cities with that Corp.

Etc

Of course you'd have to convert to that corporation to benefit from it, similar to religion and chances are there will only be 7 Corporations the game like religion.

I wonder when Corporations will become available. Obviously there's a "Corporation" technology, but I would like to see them come into play earlier. Maybe after you've researched guilds.

Maybe Guilds will allow you to create things like a Stonemason's Guild if you have a stone/marble resource. A Blacksmith's Guild if you have iron. A Whitesmith's Guild if you have Silver, etc.

Then, when you research Corporations, you can upgrade your guilds into corporations (robotics, military, medical, business, etc).

I wonder if a Great Merchant is necessary to start a corporation/guild?

So many questions!

Do you think the corporations will mirror real-life corporations?

Stonemason's Guild
East India Company
Ford Motors
Microsoft Corp.
etc

or will corporations be more generic:

i.e. 'English Stonemasons Guild' or 'Aztec Robots Factories'

So many possibilities. I'm very excited that the modern era (post renaissance) seems to be getting a major boost.

Do you think the corporations will mirror real-life corporations?

Stonemason's Guild
East India Company
Ford Motors
Microsoft Corp.
etc

or will corporations be more generic:

i.e. 'English Stonemasons Guild' or 'Aztec Robots Factories'


Hopefully everyone can just name their corporations, like cities (there might also be legal problems w/real names).

Hopefully everyone can just name their corporations, like cities (there might also be legal problems w/real names).

Good point. I forgot about the legal implications.

Good point. I forgot about the legal implications. Here's a question--if real world names were used, who would pay for it, Firaxis for the license, or the corporation for the advertising? I'd expect that seeing McDonalds in game *might* lead someone to go buy a hamburger, but seeing McDonalds is in the game won't lead anyone to go buy the Xpack.

I doubt that Firaxis would have any interest for paying companies to use their brand/logo on the game, especially because i think that many civfanatics (me included) would dislike use of real companies in game. It would be very different from using real religion names.

Adverts are already too common in games, and usually paid by the company. Nokia seems to love sport games.

:please: Let's hope this won't turn out to be advertisement. Civ shouldn't be ruined by big corporate companies.

Along the lines of corporations, I like the idea of bringing new resources to the game. It'd really be nice to have some new resources. It was mentioned previously by someone of adding tobacco and cotton to the game, good ideas for sure, considering how influential they've been historically. I'd also like to see them add rubber for jungle squares (to get a little extra production out of otherwise negative influence ont he city until late stage games) and salt peter as a requirement for gunpowder units just like in Civ III. Also I think that adding tungsten would be another excellent mineral resource to add to the game as a requirement for spaceship materials.

Farms, animal husbandry and big cities are good sources for saltpeter :D. In nature it is quite scarce - minus south-america, esp. Chile. Hey, that would actually make nice monopoly!

Here's my theory:

After discovering the Corporation, your Great Merchants gain the ability to "Form a Corporation" in one of your cities. This creates a "Corporate HQ" wonder in that city, and consumes the GM plus one resource in your trade network, making it unavailable for the resource benefit to your civ as well as making it unavailable for trade. The Corporate HQ will also generate one "executive" unit (or whatever they choose to call it) for free, and will probably allow you to run Merchant specialists.

The Executive unit is a national unit (maximum 3 per corporation per civ) that can spread your corporation's influence other cities, yielding +1 gpt from cities that already contain the resource, and +3 gpt from cities that don't (making monopolies more profitable). The target city also gains access to that corporation's resource. So if it's an Oil company, for example, that city can now build units that require oil. If the city already has access to that resource, there is no benefit to that city, other than allowing that civ's leader to trade away the resource without penalty.

The Executive can only be constructed in the city that contains the Corporate HQ, unless you're running the Free Market civic, in which case you can build them in any city influenced by the corporation (similar to Organized Religion).

The Mercantilism civic would prevent foreign corporations from being spread to your cities.

If a civilization loses control of the resource upon which the corporation is based, then all benefits from the corporation HQ and all cities influenced by the corporation cease until that resource can be re-allocated to the corporation.

I would also think that, if a city containing a Corporate HQ is captured, it would destroy the corporation and release the corporation's resource.

EDIT: Haha... I can't think of any bigger waste of time than speculating on rules changes that are already designed and that I have absolutely no control over :crazyeye:Nice idea! Looking at how they have made the game already, with respect to the Rock 'n Roll wonder and what not, maybe the corporations will have their own resources that you are free to 'sell' to the world in much the same way that you described. Using your idea, it would essentially give +3gpt every time. I do wonder whether it would be commerce rather than gold though.

If each company does produce its own special resource, then that could mean extra units/buildings/abilities that could only be made with those resources. Maybe the resources could give happiness, health and have a strategic value. Maybe computers could become a resource! Ha! you could spread your wares to other less developed nations and change their entire technological development (and possibly destroying their culture in the process)!

I would hope that there aren't any corporate missionary equivalents. That the running of the corporation is out of the founders hands even if they still get bonuses for having found the corporation.Wasn't the religion system originally like this but they decided to add the missionary element to give the player more control over spreading the religion.

I wonder when Corporations will become available. Obviously there's a "Corporation" technology, but I would like to see them come into play earlier. Maybe after you've researched guilds.To my understanding, one of the big reasons why corporations were made was to allow investors to take on bigger risks without compromising themselves (limiting their liability). This allowed them to risk big ventures like travelling across the ocean at the risk of loosing everyone on board. I don't know the exact origination of corporations, but I do know that it was useful for allowing for the funding of large cross ocean voyages possible (like with Isabella and Columbus). I guess one could argue that Corporations could become available with compass or something.

i.e. 'English Stonemasons Guild' or 'Aztec Robots Factories'I like this naming style.

Along with the corporations, we could have some new resources to exploit them. I'm thinking of things like cotton, tobacco.

Steel and aluminium should be refined instead of just magically appearing after discovering the tech. Oil wells really shouldn't double as refineries either. This could be taken to an extreme though, requiring manufacturing of goods such as cannonballs and horseshoes. (Betting this isn't in our future.)

afterall we arent playing railroad tycoon right?

Wasn't the religion system originally like this but they decided to add the missionary element to give the player more control over spreading the religion.

Yep.

But I would rather see civs have the choice to invite corporations to operate within their cities (as implied by the second part of my post). I would also much rather see corporations not provide bonuses per city in which they're present (which is part of the reason for religeous missionaries), just provide bonuses per civ in which they are present and for bonuses they consume.

Coca-cola : +2 Happiness -2 Health
KFC : +2 Happiness -1 Health
IBM : +2 Commerce -100% GP Birth
SONY : +2 Commerce -50% GP Birth

Sony is an awful representation of how a corporation should be run in this day and age.

and IBM is actually pretty awesome in having some sense of foresight about developing solutions for customers, not making the hardware. theyre in the idea industry again, just a different way.

I just hope your not forced to have corperations or the 'state property' civic prevents the setting up of corperations in your cities.

Communism 4€VA

I hope Corporations are available before discovery of the Corporation tech. Banking or Guilds should make it possible, imo - after all, historically, the first corporations, such as the East India Company, sprang forth before the industrial revolution of the 19th century.

I just hope your not forced to have corperations or the 'state property' civic prevents the setting up of corperations in your cities.

Communism 4€VA

I suspect the Economic civics may have the following influence on corporations:

Mercantilism - works similar to Organised Religion, in that you can build the "corporate missionaries" without some prerequisites (as Mercantilism basically means the state is protectionist and takes an active role in economy).

Free Market - works similar to Free Religion (no limits to corporation spread, probably some economy bonus from each corporation in the city, to denote the advantage of free competition etc.)

State Property - likely works the same way Theocracy works (i.e. no spread for foreign corporations).

I'm wondering if corporations will work exactly like religions (i.e. you can "own" more than one corporation in your civ) or you can only have one "home" corporation per civ.

Another idea I just had - I wonder if they "retool" corporate buildings, such as factories, or supermarkets, to work the same way as religious buildings do, or introduce new corporate-specific buildings?

In a way, it would be cool, to be able to build factories only if there are corporations in the city to run them - and each corporation would allow you to build another factory, which could be a significant boon/incentive for "free market" type of economy.

But I would rather see civs have the choice to invite corporations to operate within their cities (as implied by the second part of my post).I would imagine some civics would allow such an ability (using the current religious system as a reference).

I would also much rather see corporations not provide bonuses per city in which they're present (which is part of the reason for religeous missionaries), just provide bonuses per civ in which they are present and for bonuses they consume.What do you mean? Are you saying that you would rather that the company who expands into another civ gives bonuses to the whole civ as a whole rather than to each individual city? So something like civA founding a company and spreading it to civB. CivB gets the resource and civA gets additional commerce based on the population size of civB? That would be simple. It would be just like the trading resources for gold in siplomacy but it would be more of a system.

I have allways wondered why everything in the game wasn't turned into an interesting system dynamic like the religious and expansion systems: Advancing could then be by making libraries and then building students and sending them to other civs libraries. Trade could be by building trading convoys and sending them to the other civ, etc. It would make the game more dynamic (for better or worse, depending on ones preference).

I mean that I don't want corporations to be exactly like religions - I don't want the founding civ to get bonuses for every city the corporation spreads too.

I'd say it would be very like the religion system (without the diplo effects)

Diplomatic effects would be something I'd like to see - 'you refuse to do business with our citizens', or something.

Diplomatic effects would be something I'd like to see - 'you refuse to do business with our citizens', or something.


:lol: you mean people would be angry if corporations from another country DIDNT come in and take over from national corporations? I dont think thats what you meant right?

Um, no. Citizens may have been the wrong word but I couldn't think of any phrase that worked in only one word. 'Corporations', maybe.

Similar to 'you have fallen under the sway of a heathen religion'.Another nation should be angry if you don't permit a corporation it founded to make money within your cities.

youve negotiated a trade embargo against our corporation. ?

I wonder if State Property gives you the choice of whether companies are allowed into your empire? Maybe Merchantilism prevents outright and SP allows for choice.

It doesn't seem likely to me that Corporations will be founded the way that religions are. I would assume that they need to be created. Maybe each corporation will be a wonder, and building the wonder "founds" the corporation, or as I suggested earlier, perhaps a Great Merchant creates a corporation as a special ability.

Watiggi:
I wonder if State Property gives you the choice of whether companies are allowed into your empire? Maybe Merchantilism prevents outright and SP allows for choice.

If it does happen then Martinus has stated the most likely form of implementation.

But at the moment I'm being conservative in hoping it doesn't happen. The 4 advanced economy civics are well balanced. Introducing a link to corporations could upset that balance.

Hmm. I'm not a big fan of what Free Market (+1 trade route) gives vs State Property. I would have thought that Free Market would get a bit of a bonus with regards to Corps.

And a lot of people don't like enviromentalism either (though that can't be linked to corporations as easily as the other 3) but all 4 economy civics have their uses. If you play conquest games its very likely that you don't see much of a use for free market and have a preference for state property. State property is designed for massive empires. Free market is usually the best for small empires.

It's entirely possible that corporation effects could be added to the economy civics which maintains, or maybe even improves, the balance between them. I'm being very conservative on this.

Free market is usually the best for small empires.How? I would imagine (up to a point), the more cities, the more total trade routes, only limited to when the city distance maintenance gets too high. That is why I don't like it because State Property overshadows it. Is Free Market with a few cities (and thus a bonus few trade routes) better than having more cities and then switching to State Property?

I just feel that there's an inbalance, but that could also be because I have not experimented much with trade routes. If a few cities + Free Market matched a lot of cities + State Property, then I would be ok with it. This is why I see a big gap between Free Market and State Property and it would be interesting to see if they bridge that gap with giving Free Market a bonus with corps.

Overall I still feel that there is a push towards growing as being a better longterm solution. I would love it if they included things to encourage people to stay small.

Watiggi, Free Market is best for small empires not because of its benefits, but because of its downsides (or rather lack thereof). Before I demonstrate this, let's establish that a small, efficient empire will rely on a lot of trade routes to keep up with its bigger neighbours. A lot of such trade routes will be foreign (since it won't have enough cities of its own to "fill up" all the trade route slots it will have in its cities, especially after building some extra wonders). It will also have a lot of infrastructure in the cities and cities will have a high population.

So now let's compare it with the other eco civics:
- state property is a no-go; first of all, you will want to have a lot of cottages so the benefits for production facilities will be non-existent; your empire also won't be big enough to benefit from the no-distance bonus;
- mercantilism will effectively shut you off from foreign trade routes, for a meagre price of a small number of free specialists (since you have only a handful of cities),
- environmentalism may be actually a good choice to switch from free market, but it comes rather late, plus since you are a small empire, you will likely have developed most areas around the city by the time it is available, which may mean little to no forests (but I agree that if you plan ahead and leave some forests around, environmentalism may be a good choice - but it is quite expensive to run).

With free market you don't get any of the downsides above, plus you get an extra trade route and a cheap civic to maintain.

So, to paraphrase Churchill, for small empires, free market may be a lousy civic, but noone has invented anything better.

Well, Martinus went into it in more detail but I would add that only a small empire is likely to get any new and valuable (foreign) trade routes from free market.

environmentalism may be actually a good choice to switch from free market, but it comes rather late, plus since you are a small empire, you will likely have developed most areas around the city by the time it is available, which may mean little to no forests (but I agree that if you plan ahead and leave some forests around, environmentalism may be a good choice - but it is quite expensive to run).

A small empire is likely to have lower happiness and health caps due to resources. Happiness can be circumvented in a number of ways but it's more difficult to get past the limit imposed by health. Enviromentalism's +6:health: will give a small empire a huge health boost which can be a lot more valuable than all of free markets benefits.

Yeah, I'm glad Firaxis has got a solution to a problem I have spoken about on the forum:
...a resource system that benefits those with 2 or more of the same resource...

...for example in my last game, I had 6 iron at on point near the end of the game, and I was no better off than when I had 1/2 iron near the start.

It seems having loads of extra, untradeable resources will actually be a good thing now. I imagine that either certain techs will yield a coorporation to the first discoverer, or that a coorporation is founded by building a 'great wonder' type of building, or maybe you can pay an excessive amount of gold.

You are right.

Which is actually historically correct - small empires (such as the Dutch for example) went from Free Market to Environmentalism in real life too. :p

Btw, I hope they make Willem Oranje (sp?) or whoever is the Dutch leader Creative and Financial - this is the combination I miss from Warlords (Catherine used to have this in vanilla) and one that would both fit Dutch very well, and be cool to play imo.

:please: Let's hope this won't turn out to be advertisement. Civ shouldn't be ruined by big corporate companies.

(inside a chamber with representatives from different companies)
FIRAXIS DUDE: "Alright, best-effect corporation in our latest game expansion goes to the highest bidder."

Later, FIRAXIS dude meets up with the savvy Civving comunity:
:ar15::ar15:

:ar15::ar15::run:
:ar15::ar15:the Firaxis dude^

@Martinus: Thanks for the explanation. Hmm. I guess there might also be a much bigger difference between having 10-20 cities with trade routes distributed over all of the cities versus having most of the foreign trade routes (plus one per city) focused in only a few cities thus giving more bang for the buck.

Yeah, I'm glad Firaxis has got a solution to a problem I have spoken about on the forum:

It seems having loads of extra, untradeable resources will actually be a good thing now. I imagine that either certain techs will yield a coorporation to the first discoverer, or that a coorporation is founded by building a 'great wonder' type of building, or maybe you can pay an excessive amount of gold.Having loads of extra, untradeable resources is usually the domain of big empires though. I am hoping for something that encourages smaller empires. It will be interesting to see how pans out.

Btw, I hope they make Willem Oranje (sp?) or whoever is the Dutch leader Creative and Financial - this is the combination I miss from Warlords (Catherine used to have this in vanilla) and one that would both fit Dutch very well, and be cool to play imo.


If that happens then I may just have to give up on old Augustus Ceasar.

Having loads of extra, untradeable resources is usually the domain of big empires though. I am hoping for something that encourages smaller empires. It will be interesting to see how pans out.

Yes, it will be interesting to see what happens. Sometimes certain parts of the map - where one civ has expanded - have an excess of a certain resource, so even small empires can have lots of excess resources - like in certain scenerios.
I wonder if coooperations will be integrated with trading resources? Time will tell...

Just to fuel wild speculations more, maybe the profitability of your corporation will be increased if you dedicate more resources to them?

Quite possibly.

But, if you can add all your excess resources to a corporation to make it more profitable, then resource trading system will be hit very hard. Unless corporations are actually integrated with the trading system (a corporation cannot be profitable unless someone buys its services...). It would be sad to see resource trading, a very important part of Civ4, being made useless.

Just to fuel wild speculations more, maybe the profitability of your corporation will be increased if you dedicate more resources to them?Mmm. Love wild speculations! That would make it interesting. I can also see the opposite being relevant (and possible): the less resources you have of any one type, the more profitable it would become. That then would cause you to make the decision to keep your one resource or sell it via the corporation feature. That would also make it more useful for smaller civs and less useful for exanding/larger civs. Hmmm. I guess that would create issues with players of larger civs just disconnecting their excess resources in order to increase profit, but still...

How? I would imagine (up to a point), the more cities, the more total trade routes, only limited to when the city distance maintenance gets too high. That is why I don't like it because State Property overshadows it. Is Free Market with a few cities (and thus a bonus few trade routes) better than having more cities and then switching to State Property?

I just feel that there's an inbalance, but that could also be because I have not experimented much with trade routes. If a few cities + Free Market matched a lot of cities + State Property, then I would be ok with it. This is why I see a big gap between Free Market and State Property and it would be interesting to see if they bridge that gap with giving Free Market a bonus with corps.

Overall I still feel that there is a push towards growing as being a better longterm solution. I would love it if they included things to encourage people to stay small.

You'll find some discussion on this topic Here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=209877). I think Free Market works best for a small-medium empire with a reasonable number of trading partners. Having many trade routes (especially foreign ones) can really boost your economy. And since the benefit is per city, it scales with the size of your empire (to a point).

Even very large empires can get comparable economies with Free Market or State Property. However, in those cases the food bonus to watermills and workshops tips the balance in favor of State Property.

The biggest problem with Free Market is that trade route calculations are hidden from the player, so it's impossible to tell how good they will be until after you've taken your anarchy hit for switching civics. Because the calculated benefit of Free Market is hidden "behind closed doors," most players dismiss Free Market out of hand without knowing what it has to offer.

Thanks for that :)

Another idea just occured to me:

Using the idea of exchanging your excess resources for benefits, what if the benefit you got was a slice of their commerce? If the scope of the idea is on a city by city level (much like religion), then you'd get a slice of the city's commerce when you sell your resource there. If the scope is at a civ by civ level, then you'd get a slice of the total commerce that the civ generates. That'll make for some interesting economic monopolies and/or strategies for manouvering your rivals economies. That'll be cool.