A request, instead of having the tomb of succelus grant a free population point to all cities in the empire, could it be changed to something else?

Everytime i build that thing, by the time it's complete, a good number of my best cities are already topped off happiness wise, then bam, extra population point, now i have unrest, which means a mooch of a citizen in everyone of those cities draggin down the economy, if i am lucky, theres a building i can rush, but sometimes i've already got em all, and just have to ride it out till a new tech is discovered or a trade route opens up for a luxury.

it's not just that the mooch eats 2 food and does nothing, its the non mooch citizen who could focus on production, but now must be a farmer to make that two food.

I like the life mana, and usually need the 2 health it brings, and who doesn't want culture, but that pop point, could it be replaced with something else that fit with the story line?

it's not just that the mooch eats 2 food and does nothing, its the non mooch citizen who could focus on production, but now must be a farmer to make that two food.Why? Move him from the farm to the mine and starve the malcontent. If a man doesn't work, neither shall he eat.

Wow... Someone is showing a... darker side....

{EDIT} @Coko & Seont: Good point, I forgot about that; how about using OO and slavery?

Doubt you'll have Feud at that time...

Try playing as the Calabim sometime, and have one of your vamps eat the poor sap. No one will miss him. :evil:

I freely admit i am far from the best player, but how the heck you get a vampire when you are just completing the tomb of succelus?

Why? Move him from the farm to the mine and starve the malcontent. If a man doesn't work, neither shall he eat.

Lol, that will work, but why have a wonder give me what amounts to a useless bonus? and secondly, i always forget i've done something like that and it ends up costing me later when i find out my city is no longer on Comp management(like i said, i'm far from the best player)

{EDIT} @Coko & Seont: Good point, I forgot about that; how about using OO and slavery?


Just got OO a little while ago, so you are close, but its still going to be another 20+ turns before i can get the tech after it to get the slavery civic(actually more, cause i have more pressing technological needs, but its 20 or so if i went straight for it now). That still means supporting the mooch for quite some time after i get him(really, i thought the AI would have had the tomb about 20 turns ago, not sure how i managed to get it) before i can sacrifice him(and who knows who else) Which pretty much means he's still a drain on society.

Maybe a better player could manage it? But not I.

I agree. Why not have tomb of succelus provide one life mana, and also one free priest specialist in the city that builds it, like the great library does? Flavor wise, that could represent the priests that arrive in your city from different nations to care-take, study, and work at the tomb.

Just got OO a little while ago, so you are close, but its still going to be another 20+ turns before i can get the tech after it to get the slavery civic(actually more, cause i have more pressing technological needs, but its 20 or so if i went straight for it now). That still means supporting the mooch for quite some time after i get him(really, i thought the AI would have had the tomb about 20 turns ago, not sure how i managed to get it) before i can sacrifice him(and who knows who else) Which pretty much means he's still a drain on society.

Maybe a better player could manage it? But not I.

Couple things:

Build a Pagan Temple after you have Mysticism then use priest specialists and you will pop out a Great Prophet a little before you finish the religion. Then just hold onto it until you're done. I've used this to get Arete right after RoK, not sure if it works for stapling. If we can verify it doesn't then do...

What I know does work is building an Elder Council and getting a Great Sage from the specialists. Then use the Sage to build an acadamy and get a bonus to all future tech. Once when I was lucky enough to get Education from a goodie hut, the Sage gave me Writing - which gave me a free Great Sage for being first, which I used for the academy.

Lastly, and totally dependent on luck. Once, getting Festivals and Drama gave me a Great Bard which had Message from the Deep as a free tech option.

Couple things:

Build a Pagan Temple after you have Mysticism then use priest specialists and you will pop out a Great Prophet a little before you finish the religion. Then just hold onto it until you're done. I've used this to get Arete right after RoK, not sure if it works for stapling. If we can verify it doesn't then do...

This is one of the reasons I've advocated attaching an extra requirement to the second religious techs. Animal Handling to Hidden Paths, Smelting to Arete, Optics to Mind Stapling... and I had a couple for Order and Veil as well, but I forgot them. It worked well in Sureshot's old mod.

That would mean no stapling with Barbarians, mostly. Bleh

Doesn't the extra health from the life mana counteract the extra pop anyway?

It counteracts the health penalty for the larger populations but not the unhappiness problem from 'overcrowding'

Couple things:

Build a Pagan Temple after you have Mysticism then use priest specialists and you will pop out a Great Prophet a little before you finish the religion. Then just hold onto it until you're done. I've used this to get Arete right after RoK, not sure if it works for stapling. If we can verify it doesn't then do...

see, this is why i'm far from the best player. It takes me a long time to see this kind of stuff in this type of game.

What I know does work is building an Elder Council and getting a Great Sage from the specialists. Then use the Sage to build an acadamy and get a bonus to all future tech. Once when I was lucky enough to get Education from a goodie hut, the Sage gave me Writing - which gave me a free Great Sage for being first, which I used for the academy.

Lastly, and totally dependent on luck. Once, getting Festivals and Drama gave me a Great Bard which had Message from the Deep as a free tech option.

Thank you for the tips Saien, have to give it a try next time. but i still think the pop point should be replaced with something else. like this:

I agree. Why not have tomb of succelus provide one life mana, and also one free priest specialist in the city that builds it, like the great library does? Flavor wise, that could represent the priests that arrive in your city from different nations to care-take, study, and work at the tomb.

sounds good to me. definetly better than anything i could come up with.

Simple solution - Don't build it if you don't need it.

would be nice if only cities that didn't have "Halt growth" selected could grow.

thats the real problem, because when you want your cities to grow, its great when they gain +1 pop, its just when you're at max and have hit "Halt growth" and then grow anyways that its really a bother.

maybe instead make it max out the cities food storage, so if the city wanted to grow it could but if it had "Halt growth" selected it wouldn't.

I also get that problem of having most of my cities at maximum happiness when I do build ToS and subsequently get the unhappiness issue.

The city-growth unhappiness happened to me in my current game also. The unhappiness only happened in my two largest cities (one my capital), my other 4 cities it was a welcome boost. I was only about 20 turns away from founding Leaves when I got the tomb. When I got Leaves, which fortunately founded in my second largest city I sent the free disciple to the capital and converted to my state religion- unhappiness problem solved.

Don't think I've ever built it - the AI always rushes it before I get round to it :)

Why? Move him from the farm to the mine and starve the malcontent. If a man doesn't work, neither shall he eat.

yeah but you will loose the whole stock in the granary.

why would you need a granary stopck if when it grows you just get a non working citizen?

On the same topic, the mines of gal-dur... why 3 iron? I'm not aware of any bonus for having multiple sources of iron, and i personally hate trading luxuries to my allies(i prefer foods, and not brewable ones), much less a military resource.

Also, on a side note, given the nature of dwarves(khazad) shouldn't stone, marble, iron, copper and especially mithril give dwarves a happiness bonus?

why 3 iron?

You answered it your self.

trading luxuries to my allies

The mod is not done for you and only you. It is a game [removed]. Ppl play to have a challange[and for some other reasons] Your argumentation is strictly personal and cant ever be considered as a valid modify request.

Also, on a side note, given the nature of dwarves(khazad) shouldn't stone, marble, iron, copper and especially mithril give dwarves a happiness bonus?

I will quote you a random dwarven song that will answer your side note question:

Gold, gold, gold
Gold, gold, gold
Gold, gold, gold
Gold, gold, gold

Gold, gold, gold
Gold, gold, gold
Gold, gold, gold
Gold, gold, gold

Ref:
Gold, gold, gold
Gold, gold, gold
Gold, gold, gold

...

On the same topic, the mines of gal-dur... why 3 iron? I'm not aware of any bonus for having multiple sources of iron, and i personally hate trading luxuries to my allies(i prefer foods, and not brewable ones), much less a military resource.

Also, on a side note, given the nature of dwarves(khazad) shouldn't stone, marble, iron, copper and especially mithril give dwarves a happiness bonus?

Yeah its just there for trading. Helpful as a player, but also if an AI player builds the mines he will have extra to trade to you.

Stone and Marble are very handy for the Luchuirp. The Khazad get a nice perk from copper, iron and mithril with their Dwarven Smithy. I didnt have either boost happy because in Civ4 higher happy means larger cites. I don't want the dwarves to be populous, I want them to be productive so I tend to grant them hammer bonuses instead of happy bonuses.

_Valis;5315852']The mod is not done for you and only you. It is a game, not a bl00w job.

wow, What was that?

Yeah its just there for trading. Helpful as a player, but also if an AI player builds the mines he will have extra to trade to you.

Most wonders provide a more direct valueable boost to the player that builds it, this on the other hand benefits others almost more than you. You incur the cost of building it, you get unhealthiness for building it, then either sit on the 2 iron, or give it your allies/ enemies for a fraction of what its worth cause they never seem to have enough of a positive cash flow(i miss the old civs in that respect, asking for what it was worth instead of what they can afford) All assuming there isn't enough iron to begin with. And now, you've made your allies/enemies that much stronger(unless they already had mithril, which i'm betting it got built before then)
(before someone says it, i know, you don't have to build it, thats not the point)
seems like granting a couple of engineers or something similar might be more useful


Stone and Marble are very handy for the Luchuirp. The Khazad get a nice perk from copper, iron and mithril with their Dwarven Smithy. I didnt have either boost happy because in Civ4 higher happy means larger cites. I don't want the dwarves to be populous, I want them to be productive so I tend to grant them hammer bonuses instead of happy bonuses.

fair enough, i was looking for larger cities to make up for the fact that they had so few cities, or else numerous but smaller unhappy cities, because of the dwarven vault mechanic. They don't seem very viable to me with both against them, I wasn't considering the dwarviness of it.

fair enough, i was looking for larger cities to make up for the fact that they had so few cities, or else numerous but smaller unhappy cities, because of the dwarven vault mechanic. They don't seem very viable to me with both against them, I wasn't considering the dwarviness of it.

For dwarves, you pretty much MUST found RoK.

Then build up the financial lines, build markets/courthouses/moneychangers/etc. Also, the Spire helps too!

By mid-game you can easily be raking in gold faster than you can build settlers to send out. 500 a city isn't so difficult if you just don't sit there looking at it thinking you have to spend it :)

I always ended up expanding in phases with the Khazad- 4 or 5 cities, build up for a little while, until my income recovered, then pump out 4 or 5 more settlers. The bonus from holding the 500 per city helped a lot with happiness and is definitely worth keeping.

For dwarves, you pretty much MUST found RoK.

Then build up the financial lines, build markets/courthouses/moneychangers/etc. Also, the Spire helps too!

By mid-game you can easily be raking in gold faster than you can build settlers to send out. 500 a city isn't so difficult if you just don't sit there looking at it thinking you have to spend it :)

I always ended up expanding in phases with the Khazad- 4 or 5 cities, build up for a little while, until my income recovered, then pump out 4 or 5 more settlers. The bonus from holding the 500 per city helped a lot with happiness and is definitely worth keeping.

Well, While these design choices do a good job in capturing the feel of dwarves i have from most of the books i've read, they perhaps do so too well, since i can't really recall a single book where the dwarves are the super power, rather usually they are a secluded, waining race. In my experience, it would seem rightly so...

As i've said before, i'm far from the best player, I've tried what you suggest, and other strategies, most of my games failed horribly, often we me being technologically inferior, or my production boost paling to what everyone else could accomplish with their sheer number of cities, and with most of the usuable locations taken by the time i could field another wave of settlers.

I can admit i am a terrible player, but i wonder how many people might admit they have a far easier time with other races. But then if its about the challenge and not about being fair, or if i'm just much worse than i think, so be it.
Heck though, even the AI seems to fail at khazad in my games.


waiting anxiously for the animal pack addition, so my dream of a vampire gorilla army can finally come to fruition.

My big cheat is I like to take a look around the map with worldbuilder on the first turn, if I don't like my spot, I go back and start over...

I built the mines in my second most recent game because I had been granted enough tech boost from huts that I had a shot at building nearly all the wonders and went for it.

There are two other good aligned civs in that world, so I suppose I could share Iron with them before they find their own, but really I've just been dealing with the unhealthiness and moving on. More engineers would make me (as a solo, perfectionist player) MUCH more happy than a surplus of a tradeable strategic resource.

However, wasn't this thread about the Tomb? I play on Marathon (which has some issue with the lable (as a player I shouldn't see "Game_Speed_Txt_Marathon" or whatever that string name is, I should see the value of the string) ) and I pretty much always have the shoulder room for my new people.
OTOH, I haven't yet at this game speed seen any stack of units in excess of five, and I rarely have more than two defenders for any of my thoroughly built-up cities. Is this to be expected at Marathon speed?

Well, While these design choices do a good job in capturing the feel of dwarves i have from most of the books i've read, they perhaps do so too well, since i can't really recall a single book where the dwarves are the super power, rather usually they are a secluded, waining race. In my experience, it would seem rightly so...

As i've said before, i'm far from the best player, I've tried what you suggest, and other strategies, most of my games failed horribly, often we me being technologically inferior, or my production boost paling to what everyone else could accomplish with their sheer number of cities, and with most of the usuable locations taken by the time i could field another wave of settlers.

I can admit i am a terrible player, but i wonder how many people might admit they have a far easier time with other races. But then if its about the challenge and not about being fair, or if i'm just much worse than i think, so be it.
Heck though, even the AI seems to fail at khazad in my games.


waiting anxiously for the animal pack addition, so my dream of a vampire gorilla army can finally come to fruition.

I find playing as Khazad easier than others. I usually only have 1-2 cities by the time I found RoK. If my first city has good enough terrain, I'll build my second city after I get RoK so I can use God King's +50% Gold in the Runes Holy City. From there my priorities are commerce (third priority if I have a few of gold, gems, or wine), money (Festivals), military (Bronze Working or Arete if I don't have copper). Once my first cities have temples built I'll build up my money for several turns to improve the vault. Then you pretty much just advance down the melee line filling in whatever else you need. By the time you get hammerfists and trebuchets, you should be able to pump out units in every city in 3 turns or less, so even if you only have 4 cities you can still build a huge army fast and crush the AI.

The Mines are awesome if you don't have copper (Arete is better than Smelting for the cost early on), they can give you a nice military boost (Str 4 warriors), and the engineer points are nice, but it's not always a good choice to build them. Maybe 1 Iron and a production boost would be better, but it has its uses.

However, wasn't this thread about the Tomb? I play on Marathon (which has some issue with the lable (as a player I shouldn't see "Game_Speed_Txt_Marathon" or whatever that string name is, I should see the value of the string) ) and I pretty much always have the shoulder room for my new people.
OTOH, I haven't yet at this game speed seen any stack of units in excess of five, and I rarely have more than two defenders for any of my thoroughly built-up cities. Is this to be expected at Marathon speed?

My apologies, with the mines of gal-dur i kinda shifted the thread to out of whack(in my oppinion) wonders, but yeah, the dwarven thing was kinda left field.

no idea what to expect on marathon, i 'm still trying to play well on normal. I almost always have full cities, as more population means more production and science and its generally the only way i can seem to keep up with the AI, build a single wonder, and hold off the barbarian hordes.

I find playing as Khazad easier than others. I usually only have 1-2 cities by the time I found RoK. If my first city has good enough terrain, I'll build my second city after I get RoK so I can use God King's +50% Gold in the Runes Holy City. From there my priorities are commerce (third priority if I have a few of gold, gems, or wine), money (Festivals), military (Bronze Working or Arete if I don't have copper). Once my first cities have temples built I'll build up my money for several turns to improve the vault. Then you pretty much just advance down the melee line filling in whatever else you need. By the time you get hammerfists and trebuchets, you should be able to pump out units in every city in 3 turns or less, so even if you only have 4 cities you can still build a huge army fast and crush the AI.

The Mines are awesome if you don't have copper (Arete is better than Smelting for the cost early on), they can give you a nice military boost (Str 4 warriors), and the engineer points are nice, but it's not always a good choice to build them. Maybe 1 Iron and a production boost would be better, but it has its uses.

Well, then its probably going to come down to map settings, cause you guys aren't saying anything i haven't tried(and often with a touch of cheating). generally, the settings i play with, if you don't make a quick grab for some city plots, there will be nothing left to grab, and if you do make the grab, you slow your economy down so badly you get lapped there instead. So perhaps then they are more viable on settings i don't use. But then if i'm right, to have a civ thats only viable in certain situations is kinda silly.(can you say land locked lunan 5 times fast)

is it so useless to add a building that gives 3 rescources but doesn't give mana?

what if the mines gave 1 iron 1 earth mana and a great engineer upon creation

what if the mines gave 1 iron 1 earth mana and a great engineer upon creation

then it would be vastly overpowered,
I guess it really only needs to give 1 iron, just like the eternal flame...

Giving 3 iron is very nice. A dillema if you should give it away or not to bosten your ally/opponent is very interesting. Having iron for 'free' is very powerful, why shouldn't it have some disadvantages, were it is an advantage if you can use it well.

Look at the case of death mana and that wonder that grants it.

Side note: The eternal flame could grand a fire resistance to units build in the city? I really liked the wonder and would like to see it back, even if it loses the 3 fire mana bonus.

Well, you gift to you a would be ally, and then ungift it when you attack them. If they have access to known, it hurts them quickly, sure their first units to fight you have it, but ah well, he won't expect an attack from such a nice ally, MWHAHAHAHHAHAA

is it so useless to add a building that gives 3 rescources but doesn't give mana?

If thats the case then Ygdrasil would have to be changed too.