Is anyone using the Raging Barb option in Fire?

I stopped using it (and Marathon speed as well) when it seemed like the counter was moving too fast for me to keep up. Getting constantly pounded by barbs held back my research, growth, etc. and I was dead meat when the Horsemen appeared.

Anyway, I went back and just started 3 Raging Barb games on a huge Fantasy Realm map at Epic speed. Here are some observations on those 3 games. Your comments are welcome.

1. My first game my starting screen had FIVE barrows. Not a single goodie-hut - I'm not sure if there is a relationship or not. However, I decided there was no way I would be able to get all of the Barrows before they were protected (see below). Exit to Main Menu, start a new game.

2. In my next two games before the yr. 10 one AI civ was eliminated. It could only have been Skeletons, right? Maybe the Dirge dropped a few right next to a civ's only city. I think some AI civs explore and leave the city without a defender. Even so, one Warrior likely without promotions will get killed by one or more Skeletons. I had it happen to me once.

3. In my other games I moved my Scout/Warrior to take out a Barrow close to my city. I was shocked when a Skeleton guard spawned in yr. 4 to protect the barrow. No way my Scout or Warrior is going to win that battle. This means Skeletons will be spawning from the Barrow close to my city until I can get a unit strong enough to kill the Skeleton Guard. Note: the same thing happens with Lizardmen and their Ruins. I thought yr. 4 was a little early in an Epic game to have Skeletons spawning. But, then again, you get the Dirge in yr. 1!

4. Schizophrenic Lizardmen. Has anyone been able to figure out their behavior in the early game? I haven't. I saw one right next to an AI Scout with only Combat II - an easy kill. The Lizardman moved away. However, next turn he killed my Warrior!! Sometimes they just buzz around, sometimes they attack, sometimes they just guard their ruins. How can you develop a strategy against these whacky creatures?

5. In both games there were plenty of Lizardmen and Skeletons buzzing and attacking before the orc spearmen and goblins appeared. These are Strength 3 units and you have warriors and scouts. It can be tough unless you manage to get promotions before your units are killed. Also, I noticed in both games when the spearmen and goblins came, when you add in the Skeletons and Lizardmen, the animals had completely disappeared from the map. Capturing animals, if you had a chance, was no longer possible. You had to wait until you could build Nature's Revolt in mid-game.

6. As expected swarms of raging barbs appeared and attacked me for about 50 turns before moving on to attack some other poor civ. This prevented me from advancing in the game much - no improvements, slow techs, no additional cities and I fell behind 5 other civs who had not been swarmed by the barbs.

7. The counter was moving at a hasty clip - up to 20+ before turn 175. I was just getting Hunters and ready to settle my second city.

Conclusion: I think Fire is fantastic, but you still cannot play it using the raging barb setting with Epic or Marathon speed.

PS. One question: The barbs come in Epic around yr. 72. In Marathon, they come around yr. 114.

However, in both speeds you get the animals, most Skeletons, etc. in yr. 7, Why isn't there an adjustment made to Marathon as in the case of the barbs?

Normal speed, map huge, raging barbs, Fire 0.20h: All seems ok. Some times an AI gets obliterated in first 70 turns after Ortus has spawned or Acheron but nothing too serious like in a 4th turn. The first swarms start to appear when I am going to build my 1st or second settlers and then it is a rought battle for survival, very flavorwise.

It seems that only the other speed settings are jinxed althou 0.21 might change something there I am not aware of.

might be nice if ruins and barrows spawned animals until barbs appeared.

I play huge- epic and haven't noticed that problem as severely. Yeah- the unending stream of goblins/orcs requires at least 2-3 defenders per city by around turn 50-70, and an active defense to protect workers and improvements. Fortunately I find I can still expand at a decent clip- new cities only require a single defender on fortify until I get arund to sending workers to it to start building improvements, at which point I can usally shift an experienced warrior/swordsman from a city less likely to be attacked directly.

Granted there is still the bad luck chance of barrows/dirge, but that has been in FfH since I started playing.

might be nice if ruins and barrows spawned animals until barbs appeared.

Ruins- Rats, and Barrows- bats! Both str 1 non-capturable barb animals. Sounds like a good suggestion, and fits the fantasy theme :)

BTW- the first ever game I played of Fire, I saw a gorilla on a jungle covered island, but never managed to get over to fight it. I have never seen another one in any of my games since. In fact now I think of it, I haven't seen the Toads resource in my last couple games either. Were these removed?

gorillas are only in jungles, so it really depends on the map type, and toads are only on hell terrain, so they dont show up to later if at all

I play on pretty much the same settings and find I have had to restart about 50% of my early games because of Barrows being nearby but if they arent it has normally lead to me getting a butt load of Experienced units early on that always works to my advantage whether im playing to up AC or reduce it.

Edit: When I say nearby I mean within my first 5 turns I have spotted more than 1 barrow. I can normally deal with 1 or even 2 as you can build enough warriors to wear down the early Skelly that pops before a 2nd appears without retarding your start too much.

might be nice if ruins and barrows spawned animals until barbs appeared.


Now that, IMO is one helluvan idea!

I use it consistently (but not on very big maps because it slows the computer too much) and it doesn't affect the AC in a really significant way. I play normal speed though, I think the other speed settings are not balanced (not a FFH problem only). You really should avoid them IMHO.

not to hijack the thread, but how are the other speeds unbalanced? I play only on marathon speed (sometimes with raging barbs, but it depends), prince difficulty and I have never had issue with too many barrows/ruins or the AC going up too quickly.

I'm playing Noble, Epic. It was always a fun challenge keeping my cities alive, every now and then you'd have 5-6 jump you. I pretty much had to put a horse on each of my worker stacks for protection. Basically if you keep a few scouts around your city it tends to be okay because the vision keeps them from spawning and when they come you quickly knock em off before they hit your city.

The main problem I'm having is there will be 1 black spot and chariots suddenly pop out, move onto an improvement, and destroy it in one turn. Hella fraustrating.

Though on my like 5th turn once I had a skeleton come from nowhere walk to my city kill the bloodpet and take it. I don't think it needs so much tweaking, just requires a bit more luck I guess.

not to hijack the thread, but how are the other speeds unbalanced? I play only on marathon speed (sometimes with raging barbs, but it depends), prince difficulty and I have never had issue with too many barrows/ruins or the AC going up too quickly.

I'm not sure if you get more barrows/ruins in a raging barb game. These were just three games I cited that I tried to play recently. Maybe just bad experiences.

However, with the first version of Fire I gave up on about 6 games at Marathon, Raging Barb/Agg AI, Monarch setting.

The problem I was having with the counter moving too fast - maybe this os onedreamer's unbalanced statement which I tend to agree with.

With raging barbs you spend more time in a defensive rather than expansive mode. You are slower to get the techs, wonders, etc. as you have to protect your one or two cities as the barbs get after you.

The barbs take down cities and one good strategy is for you to take down barb cities when you can. In both cases the counter will likely advance.

I was finding the counter hitting the 60s and bringing the Horsemen when I only had Tier II defenders, in some cases without Courage. It wasn't pretty.

So, I started playing at Epic without raging barbs, but still Agg AI to keep the game interesting, and had no problems with the counter. It seemed to move just about right.

I'm playing Noble, Epic. It was always a fun challenge keeping my cities alive, every now and then you'd have 5-6 jump you. I pretty much had to put a horse on each of my worker stacks for protection. Basically if you keep a few scouts around your city it tends to be okay because the vision keeps them from spawning and when they come you quickly knock em off before they hit your city.

The main problem I'm having is there will be 1 black spot and chariots suddenly pop out, move onto an improvement, and destroy it in one turn. Hella fraustrating.

Though on my like 5th turn once I had a skeleton come from nowhere walk to my city kill the bloodpet and take it. I don't think it needs so much tweaking, just requires a bit more luck I guess.

That's an interesting strategy of using Scouts to surround your city to keep the barbs from spawning near you - especially if you can find an Ancient Tower or two to help with the sight. Of course, having Scouts raises your maintenance costs and they are not good defenders.

Yes, the Goblin Chariots and Worg Riders are the biggest nuisances when it comes to protecting your improvements.

One thing I have seen in raging barb games is that the barbs will target a particular city. Then, if you open the World Builder, you will see them lined up from far away in a conga line approaching your city. In this case, I'm not sure your Scouts would be much help and they would be the first to go.

Still, I will try your strategy in one of my games. Thanks.

the scout strategy is more effective if you grab hunters right off and use them, and then work towards rangers. by the time you get rangers you'll have Sentry hunters too, they can really scope out the area, and once you get rangers you can put them on mountains so most barbs cant take them out.

also, putting a sentry2 unit on a tower gives massive line of sight.

Haha I'll have to check the congo line that's hilarious, but I don't doubt it for a second when for a few turns they just pile into my city area. Ya the one game with the horses my jaw dropped when I got horse back riding from a hut, made my life extremely easier =P

But yea, the thing is barbs only spawn in fog of war, so a lot of the time I don't really fight barbs but fog of war. I should of said I put bloodpets on hills, or even horsemen, because yea when they come I like to instantly take them down and put them back into outpost position, so I like sending out units that can fight barbs. Also, ships on the coast do great wonders for getting rid of fog, and can't be attacked. Sadly, I also end up building cities close by just to get rid of fog and make other cities safer.
Edit: I also play on Noble, but I'm bumping up to Prince this new game coming so I'll see how it is. I assume barbs are easier in Noble, might explain why I'm not having so much difficulty yet. Except for a skeleton ending my civ in 5 turns ><! =P

I do like Sureshot's idea though. That's a great strat too.

2. In my next two games before the yr. 10 one AI civ was eliminated. It could only have been Skeletons, right? Maybe the Dirge dropped a few right next to a civ's only city. I think some AI civs explore and leave the city without a defender. Even so, one Warrior likely without promotions will get killed by one or more Skeletons. I had it happen to me once.

or the AI went to a goody hut with a non scout and it went hostile on him. usually after which the barbarians, fresh from a kill, come after me. I imagine this happens most often to khazad, since as i recall, they get no scout, only 2 warriors to explore with. But I've seen it happen a few times, stupid AI.


3. In my other games I moved my Scout/Warrior to take out a Barrow close to my city. I was shocked when a Skeleton guard spawned in yr. 4 to protect the barrow. No way my Scout or Warrior is going to win that battle. This means Skeletons will be spawning from the Barrow close to my city until I can get a unit strong enough to kill the Skeleton Guard. Note: the same thing happens with Lizardmen and their Ruins. I thought yr. 4 was a little early in an Epic game to have Skeletons spawning. But, then again, you get the Dirge in yr. 1!

A warrior fortified in a city gets 25 fortified plus 25 city for 50% to his 2, for 3 total, making him atleast a match for the skeleton, and after 1 battle he usually has combat 1 for an extra 20. while i don't play on epic, i like to leave the barrows alone and rack XP especially since skeletons can't pillage, and i've never seen them go for my workers, they beeline right for the city.

I won't argue with you on the lizardmen, words cannot express my hatred for them. Atleast they don't pillage either, but it matters little since you can't build anything while they are around.

4. Schizophrenic Lizardmen. Has anyone been able to figure out their behavior in the early game? I haven't. I saw one right next to an AI Scout with only Combat II - an easy kill. The Lizardman moved away. However, next turn he killed my Warrior!! Sometimes they just buzz around, sometimes they attack, sometimes they just guard their ruins. How can you develop a strategy against these whacky creatures?

I've only ever seen them leave one guard on a barrow. And if the lizardman sees a city it considers vunerable, or certain other high value targets, i've seen it often bypass my troops no matter how weak, or wounded, or oppertune. A cheap tactic i occasionally use to save a wounded warrior, or a worker even, when i see a lizardman, assuming he's out of range of the city, is to move most or all my defenders out, he goes for the city, i move the defenders back and hopefully get my guy to safety. course he sometimes kills him anyway if its on the way to the city.
I can't explain all their behavior, but i guess thats because some of what they are reacting to is out of my visible range.

6. As expected swarms of raging barbs appeared and attacked me for about 50 turns before moving on to attack some other poor civ. This prevented me from advancing in the game much - no improvements, slow techs, no additional cities and I fell behind 5 other civs who had not been swarmed by the barbs.

Something i noticed a while back, the closer i am to the equator, and the closer i am to the center of my continent, the worse it will be, to the point that the one time i started dead center in both, it was just stupid ridiculous, they even walked right past lightly defended cities of other civs just to fight me. I've struggled to find an explanation for this behavior, thats all i can come up with. They just didn't like me being in the middle.LOL.

Many interesting points, Seont, thanks!

I always wondered how Khazad was able to get Runes of Kilmorph so early. In my last game, he got Pact of Nilhorn around yr 112 (Epic speed) and ROK about 20 turns later.

I know some have said the elves have an advantage in getting FOL because they have those 2 elven scouts. But, with two Dwarven Warriors you really have to wonder how Khazad is able to get Cartography, Mining, Mysticism, and Ways of the Earthmother with only one city and two warriors this fast!!!

When I send a warrior out exploring, I almost always get a hostile reaction, as you mentioned, lose the warrior the next turn and then have a couple of orc spearmen wandering around the map.

I lost a game in yr 18 when two Skeletons killed my only Warrior defender. In Epic/Marathon games it can take 30+ turns for you to get that second defender. My Warrior was fortified, but had no promotions.

Interesting strategy on the barrows - leaving them around to build up XP. That is helpful particularly if Orthus pays you an early visit. I don't know, I just think they are disruptive like the Lizardmen when you are trying to build improvements.

I play almost all my games on a huge Fantasy Realm map. It is mostly land and scrolls. It always seems like the AI picks on me in raging barb games and this really slows down expansion, etc. However, I have to admit, in Light the AI was unable to handle the raging barbs and was often eliminated one by one leading to an early Conquest victory for me.

I am not seeing that as much in Fire as not only do the AI civs survive the barb onslaught, but also seem to expand at a good clip.

Still, I think the counter moves too fast in the raging barb games played at the slower speeds.

Well Sarisin. I now have to sadly side with you on this one =P My first game in prince, in the first what 20-30 turns, 3 AI die, and then ONE skeleton runs up and slaughters my TWO freaking bloodpets -.<.

It seems MUCH better on Noble because your warrior generally almost always trumphs the skeletons, where as on Prince they generally get their asses handed to them, twice. I guess like someone else said, if you're going to play higher difficulties you need to play faster games speed =( So for now I'm sticking to noble, which sucks because I really wanted to up my gaming.

Oh and another thing, I saw my brother playing his first FFH game, and he built his city next to a burrow :lol: on the first turn, the next turn bam a skeleton was there. Not sure if the city triggered the defender, but that was pretty bad. I think hypothetically the problem is there might be a universal spawn time for defenders and skellies, when it needs to be extended for slower game speeds.

Well Sarisin. I now have to sadly side with you on this one =P My first game in prince, in the first what 20-30 turns, 3 AI die, and then ONE skeleton runs up and slaughters my TWO freaking bloodpets -.<.

It seems MUCH better on Noble because your warrior generally almost always trumphs the skeletons, where as on Prince they generally get their asses handed to them, twice. I guess like someone else said, if you're going to play higher difficulties you need to play faster games speed =( So for now I'm sticking to noble, which sucks because I really wanted to up my gaming.

Oh and another thing, I saw my brother playing his first FFH game, and he built his city next to a burrow :lol: on the first turn, the next turn bam a skeleton was there. Not sure if the city triggered the defender, but that was pretty bad. I think hypothetically the problem is there might be a universal spawn time for defenders and skellies, when it needs to be extended for slower game speeds.

I am still playing a Light game (I alternate days with a Fire game) at Emperor, Huge, Marathon, Raging Barb, Agg AI.

However, in Fire I had to adjust. I am playing Prince (and losing about 50% of the time!), without Raging Barbs (but still AggAI), and at Epic speed.

I agree with you that the slower speeds are VERY difficult in Fire because the counter moves basically at the same pace, but your growth is much slower. If you add in raging barbs, your growth really can crawl and you will be left wanting when the Horsemen arrive.

Yeah, I think something has gone haywire with the Skeletons in the early game. I definitely agree that some of those early game events (Sailor's Dirge, arrival of Animals/Barrow & Ruin Dwellers, etc.) need to be adjusted like the arrival of the barbs themselves. As it is now with the lengthy times to build that 2nd defender, you cannot stand up to 2 or even sometimes 1 Skeleton in the first few turns.

I guess its all about experimenting with the different game variables to see what works for you.

few notes and tricks about skeles , lizards , and orcs ...

1 - skeles and liz wont pillage .... EVER .... many times you can ignore them and improve on the other side of the city

2 - typically skeles and liz will attack a lone warrior or a pair of warriors. find a forested hill just a ways out and fortify .... this makes your warrior a 4 and he will level nicely on these guys.

3 - its only the orcs that will walk around you to hit a city or pillage. fortunately they have a move of 1 and if you can place a defender in a forest close he can attack when the orc has no defensive bonus.

4 - if your having issueswith orcs or lizardmen , use the orc slaying promo , it effects both.

5 - a hunter with combat 2 and forest defence is elligible for forest stealth. this is a very strong promo as he cant be killed in forests (normally).

6 - iirc , forest defense applies to attack also

basicallly it comes down to knowing your enemy and using the terrain.

not to hijack the thread, but how are the other speeds unbalanced? I play only on marathon speed (sometimes with raging barbs, but it depends), prince difficulty and I have never had issue with too many barrows/ruins or the AC going up too quickly.

I'm speaking of the game, Civ4. It was built around normal speed, the other speed settings change the balances of the normal setting, especially Marathon.

I know some have said the elves have an advantage in getting FOL because they have those 2 elven scouts. But, with two Dwarven Warriors you really have to wonder how Khazad is able to get Cartography, Mining, Mysticism, and Ways of the Earthmother with only one city and two warriors this fast!!!


In fact, Khazad and Luchuirp are the second best civs (after Ljosalfar/Svartalfar) for exploring, since both their scouts and warriors have double movement on hills.

I must admit, I'm absolutely loving the raging barbs in this game. Makes for a very cool and frantic early game where you're constantly fighting for dear life against massive hordes. Things like the occasional hill giant and Orthus make it even cooler.

I love the idea that this is a totally untamed and dangerous world where civilisation is going to have a really rough time of it. And I really like the idea that you're too busy up to your neck in barbarian corpses in the early game to even think about some cheesy warrior rush on your neighbouring civs.

The only problem is it seems that, for the most part, reckless expansion seems to actually be the best way to combat the barbarians, rather than a horribly risky and probably misguided idea. You've suddenly fairly permanently reclaimed a whole area from orc etc appearance without really needing to fight for it. And because the very food-rich farms make settlers (and road-building workers) effectively very cheap, it seems to promote city spam (which is exactly what the AI seems to do). And of course, sticking warriors etc on hills around your civ is a much better defense (by magically stopping barb appearance) than actually having them within your borders. I know this is a holdover from vanilla, it just doesn't seem to work as well here, and it means that barbs very soon disappear as an actual problem, unless you're unlucky enough to be near Orthus or something. I play on normal size though, so I imagine the dynamics are fairly different on larger game sizes.

I reckon the ruins and barrows are an absolutely inspired idea, though. I'd love to see them expanded to account for the majority of normal barbarians (orc camp, bear cave etc or something) so that you really do have to actually fight for the territory. I'd also love to see them all start with a defender too, maybe spawn another before starting to attack, and maybe a slower rate of new troop spawn (and less tendency to beeline for cities maybe). So you have to mount a serious barb-clearing assault to clear an area for expansion. Maybe give some reward for clearing them (like a goody hut). Some actual barb cities that exist from the start would be cool too.
So barbs stay a force for longer, are more of a hindrance to actual expansion, and you can maybe even get some of those cool carnival bonuses before they all disappear!
It would help give the early game more of a Master of Magic/HoMM sort of vibe.

For the moment though, I've found that running a pangaea map with "cold" climate is great for leaving big tundra/ice areas at the poles that continue to spawn barbs for much longer (and it fits the theme of the mod, too).

few notes and tricks about skeles , lizards , and orcs ...

1 - skeles and liz wont pillage .... EVER .... many times you can ignore them and improve on the other side of the city

2 - typically skeles and liz will attack a lone warrior or a pair of warriors. find a forested hill just a ways out and fortify .... this makes your warrior a 4 and he will level nicely on these guys.

3 - its only the orcs that will walk around you to hit a city or pillage. fortunately they have a move of 1 and if you can place a defender in a forest close he can attack when the orc has no defensive bonus.

4 - if your having issueswith orcs or lizardmen , use the orc slaying promo , it effects both.

5 - a hunter with combat 2 and forest defence is elligible for forest stealth. this is a very strong promo as he cant be killed in forests (normally).

6 - iirc , forest defense applies to attack also

basicallly it comes down to knowing your enemy and using the terrain.


Well said with your last comment daladinn!

1 - Yes, the Lizardmen and Skeletons will not pillage, but they will pick of workers building the improvements. That's what I mean about them being a nuisance. Also, it is not uncommon (although I don't think it is an AI strategy) to have an Orc Spearman or 2 in a stack with Lizardmen and Skeletons that WILL pillage. In raging barb games mixed stacks like this are common.

4 - I always used to go for that Orcish promotion right after Combat I. However, that can hurt you when another non-Orc civ declares war on you. Having Combat II, for example, would help you against, say, a Malakhim Warrior instead of having Orcish.

5 - It's the same with Stealth for a Hunter. With a limit of 100 XP (not Raider and fighting barbs), you have to decide if Stealth is better than something like Shock when you are getting hit by bunches of Orc Axemen.

The terrain certainly can be your good friend in this game!:)

In fact, Khazad and Luchuirp are the second best civs (after Ljosalfar/Svartalfar) for exploring, since both their scouts and warriors have double movement on hills.

Yes, I see that movement pt bonus can help, but...

Do you really send your Warriors out exploring?

I used to, but I got so tired of getting those hostile goodie hut reactions and having Skeletons attack my city, that now I keep them at home or use them to defend in my second city.

I really use my Scout now exclusively. That's one reason I liked Mobility 1 and 2 in Exploration. Also, I just love it when I can get a second Scout from a goodie hut.

I really think the AI might be sending out both early units to explore as I have seen at least one AI civ get eliminated very early.

In Epic and Marathon games it can take awhile to get that 1st Warrior built.

I love the idea that this is a totally untamed and dangerous world where civilisation is going to have a really rough time of it. And I really like the idea that you're too busy up to your neck in barbarian corpses in the early game to even think about some cheesy warrior rush on your neighbouring civs.

The only problem is it seems that, for the most part, reckless expansion seems to actually be the best way to combat the barbarians, rather than a horribly risky and probably misguided idea. You've suddenly fairly permanently reclaimed a whole area from orc etc appearance without really needing to fight for it. And because the very food-rich farms make settlers (and road-building workers) effectively very cheap, it seems to promote city spam (which is exactly what the AI seems to do). And of course, sticking warriors etc on hills around your civ is a much better defense (by magically stopping barb appearance) than actually having them within your borders. I know this is a holdover from vanilla, it just doesn't seem to work as well here, and it means that barbs very soon disappear as an actual problem, unless you're unlucky enough to be near Orthus or something. I play on normal size though, so I imagine the dynamics are fairly different on larger game sizes.

I reckon the ruins and barrows are an absolutely inspired idea, though. I'd love to see them expanded to account for the majority of normal barbarians (orc camp, bear cave etc or something) so that you really do have to actually fight for the territory. I'd also love to see them all start with a defender too, maybe spawn another before starting to attack, and maybe a slower rate of new troop spawn (and less tendency to beeline for cities maybe). So you have to mount a serious barb-clearing assault to clear an area for expansion. Maybe give some reward for clearing them (like a goody hut). Some actual barb cities that exist from the start would be cool too.
So barbs stay a force for longer, are more of a hindrance to actual expansion, and you can maybe even get some of those cool carnival bonuses before they all disappear!
It would help give the early game more of a Master of Magic/HoMM sort of vibe.

For the moment though, I've found that running a pangaea map with "cold" climate is great for leaving big tundra/ice areas at the poles that continue to spawn barbs for much longer (and it fits the theme of the mod, too).

Some very interesting observations!

I agree that in raging barb games you really do not focus much on declaring war on your neighbor or any of the AI civs as you are busy with the barbs. Likewise, having many barbs a-ragin' keeps the warlike AI civs somewhat at bay - although some like Svartlafar still come calling.

I think the 'reckless expansion' strategy in raging barb games is a crapshoot. If you don't get picked on in the early going (I always get picked on), you can expand. And, it is great if you can grow to the borders of another civ, particularly one with the BAR trait.

However, when the barbs come in numbers, your one Warrior defense will not stand and you will suffer. But, often, I have seen the barbs leave after destroying one of your cities and go looking for someone else. Time to expand again???

Well, you do get barb cities sprouting up like weeds. Those are a nuisance, especially when roads magically appear connecting them. Acheron's city can be an especially difficult nut to crack for awhile.

My only problem with the barrows/ruins is that there are too many of them in some games and they are defended too quickly.

I figured out a way to drive the AI raging barbs whacky in my current game.

Through, um, careful planning and some dumb luck I managed to create three choke points on my civ's borders.

I have enough units (plenty of blooded werewolves) to man the choke points, so I am just loving messing around with those bad barbs.

First, I would open a choke point by just moving one unit. The barbs would move towards that open choke point. The terrain is harsh enough that it takes some time to approach my defenders.

Just before the group of barbs (and I am talking a number of stacks, one of which has so many barbs it is truncated in the display), I move the single unit back to the tile to close the choke point. The barbs turn around and then head to my second choke point where I have moved another unit.

It was fun playing raging barb ping pong.

When I closed all three choke points, the mob moved on to pound other AI civs, but that was not so much fun.

If you can get the chokepoints, even using a single unit to block the way (silly when you have a huge stack of barbs) you can send the barb gang packing.

I figured out a way to drive the AI raging barbs whacky in my current game.

Through, um, careful planning and some dumb luck I managed to create three choke points on my civ's borders.

I have enough units (plenty of blooded werewolves) to man the choke points, so I am just loving messing around with those bad barbs.

First, I would open a choke point by just moving one unit. The barbs would move towards that open choke point. The terrain is harsh enough that it takes some time to approach my defenders.

Just before the group of barbs (and I am talking a number of stacks, one of which has so many barbs it is truncated in the display), I move the single unit back to the tile to close the choke point. The barbs turn around and then head to my second choke point where I have moved another unit.

It was fun playing raging barb ping pong.

When I closed all three choke points, the mob moved on to pound other AI civs, but that was not so much fun.

If you can get the chokepoints, even using a single unit to block the way (silly when you have a huge stack of barbs) you can send the barb gang packing.

I think i read about that in some recent succession game, the computer is coded to attack only if there is a route to your city, if not then they won't attack. That would explain why they left for the other civs when you closed the choke.

I think i read about that in some recent succession game, the computer is coded to attack only if there is a route to your city, if not then they won't attack. That would explain why they left for the other civs when you closed the choke.

You're probably right, but there were other, more out of the way, routes to the city.

I had about 30 barbs hung up going back and forth for a lot of turns. Finally, I thought this was boring and I just closed the choke point and let them move on.

Of course, this did mean that later I had beaucoup barbs show up elsewhere, but again, I was able to use the choke point strategy on those too. :)

Evil, Evil, Barbs. I think I'm going to start playing normal speed again though, as much as I love epic, I don't have time for it so I never finish my games ; ; =P

But anyways. See, it's all fine and dandy IF you get up that far, but a lot of the times you get raped within say, the first 20 turns? Maybe even less because sometimes I don't get a 2nd warrior before a skeleton knocks on the door going I don't like you so die. =( Any luck with barbs and such Sarisin Wonder if they could impliment it where if you play on harder difficulties you get added units.

I think raging barbs is also far to fun to turn off, it adds so much more flavor and greatness to the game. It's like every city has to pass the "barb" survival test to be allowed into the game =P -sees Orthus dressed up as the guy from Saw- Wanna play a game? I call it, BARBARIANS SLAUGHTER YOU! >.> anyways..

The choke thing is interesting, wondering just how to execute it. I need to find right off the bat strats though, like when you still have your first one or two cities.

I recently started a new game. However, I changed all of the handicap numbers so that nobody got any bonuses against barbs or animals (you should check out those bonuses some time!).

I always play with raging barbs and was looking for a nasty game. Nope. They were quite disappointing, again. The only difference I've seen is that at turn 400+ there are still two bears running around (each with Combat IV, Woodsman I, and Guerrilla I). Then again, I am on a Terra map and no one has made it over to the New World yet ;)

I'm disappointed that I never see the mega stacks that others report. I'm assuming it's because I always max out the number of Civs in each of my games. Maybe I should have a duel with Charadon on a huge Fantasy map . . .

- Niilo

Terra maps are designed small and crowded in the old world. Try maybe pangea with heigh waterlevel, or increase size and take out a couple AI's at the set-up, that oughta do it.

My worst time with Barbs was in Fantasy maps, since those don't have oceans. Even with maxed out Civs (usually 3-6 of them are gone before too long). Even then I didn't get stacks, though, and rarely got blown out of any game early (it did happen a few times - usually when I was stupid and didn't think about defence from Year 1).

By the way, I got to see the New World last night. Since I upped the barbarian unit and city appearance ratio, it is chock full of black. It's going to be fun trying to crack that nut.

Skeletons sure are prevalent now with those barrows. The barbarians are lucky they have an 'understanding' with the undead ;)

- Niilo

By the way, I got to see the New World last night. Since I upped the barbarian unit and city appearance ratio, it is chock full of black. It's going to be fun trying to crack that nut.

- Niilo

Build the Baron and send him with a healer. Tons 'o werewolves :D

Most of them are skeletons. I'm assuming they don't get converted to werewolves.

I'm playing the Grigori, and my first hero, Branding, is a hunter. He's slowly exploring the new land. Very slowly (move to wooded hill, defend, heal, attack adjacent stacks, heal, defend, heal, move to next wooded hill). I'm not taking any chances with him (at least, not below 99.9%).

- Niilo

Well... I think this speaks volumes, maybe otrhers might wanna share. =P Btw this is on NOBLE not even harder ones lmao, I'm not upping until I Can get a good game -.-

-Kills-
Goblins: 267
Orc Spearman: 294
Lizardman: 145
Orc Axeman: 72

Oh, and I that's also because I was lucky and quickly destroyed my 2 burrows on my continent.

By the way, if you want barb problems. Start your civ near the poles >.> I guarantee you you'll have tons of fun <.< Need a lot of rangers with Sentry =P

Love to see your totals Sarisin hehe

I took over my first city in the New World, the city where Acheron resided. I actually had to abandon it because all of the scores of skeletons on the continent immediately headed for my one city and I didn't have enough defensive units - and I certainly didn't want to lose two of my adventurers.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/39005/Civ4ScreenShot0006.JPG

Those large stacks have over 20 skeletons each.

- Niilo

Yes, I see that movement pt bonus can help, but...

Do you really send your Warriors out exploring?



Well, yes of course I do. But I don't pick up goody huts near the capital for the risk of hostiles. But those moderately away are ok. First I produce a scout who will take the nearby huts and then fight animals (and hopefully capture some). Then I make more warriors that will defend the capital.
In multiplayer you can't be so "daring" though ;)

-Kills-
Goblins: 267
Orc Spearman: 294
Lizardman: 145
Orc Axeman: 72


That's not much compared to a game I played I think in 0.16 or 0.20 with Elhoim: I was kinda at the center of the map and Orthus spawned quite away but decided to raze exactly me (this I found out later... initially I didn't know it, of course). Well, since when he spawned, ALL darn barbarians in the world were heading straight to my capital !! One turn I defended from a stack of 14 goblins in one city. I don't think I would have survived that initial stage if not for the Elhoim defense bonus. The rest of the game was hard though because fighting back the hordes of barbarians seriously hindered my expansion.

Oh sorry, shoulda specified that was only on my continent, not going to new worlds or barbarian horded areas.

@Dreamer: Hehe that sounds pretty crazy >< -taps side of head- Those barbarians are crazy, I think 70% of this game is just fighting Barbarians, the other 30% is the actual civs :p

@Vorsh: Now that's just disgusting lol, reminds me of the time I had a ruin on an island spawning lizardmen that couldn't go anywhere :lol:

You should always have a powerful caster with you when trying to conquer a raging barbarian continent. I prefer Spell Extension I and II Air III Archmages. Skeleton spams cannot survive Maelstroms from 4 tiles away. Of course, you are probably trying to take this territory before these are available.

You should always have a powerful caster with you when trying to conquer a raging barbarian continent. I prefer Spell Extension I and II Air III Archmages. Skeleton spams cannot survive Maelstroms from 4 tiles away. Of course, you are probably trying to take this territory before these are available.

Actually, I just did natures revolt with rangers//beastmasters and a few powerful vamps//the Baron fo ralive units. But cities are much easier to take when bears are guarding them. But I'll definately have to look into that for when actual barbs start spawning again. Sounds like a good strat to me :D

You should always have a powerful caster with you when trying to conquer a raging barbarian continent. I prefer Spell Extension I and II Air III Archmages. Skeleton spams cannot survive Maelstroms from 4 tiles away. Of course, you are probably trying to take this territory before these are available.
Yeah, the best I've got at the moment is my adventurer mage. Twin-casted fireballs at full empowerment aren't too shabby. I'm currently bee-lining for the tech that gives me archmages, then it'll just be unfair :evil:

- Niilo

-Kills-
Goblins: 267
Orc Spearman: 294
Lizardman: 145
Orc Axeman: 72

Love to see your totals Sarisin hehe

My last Light game (yes, I still play Light games :p ) the body count included more than 1,000 Orc Spearmen and Goblins. There were also 100s of Lizardmen, Orc Axemen, Worg Riders and Goblin Chariots.

I play Light with a Huge fantasy realm (almost all land) map, 10 AI civs (always seem to get at least one with the BAR trait), Emperor, Marathon, AggAI, and, of course, raging barbs.

The Fire games I play are much different. I cannot use the same settings as above in Fire games. Still, they are lots of fun, just different.

For example, in the raging barb Fire games, I find a much higher count of Lizardmen and those rascally Skeletons. It seems to me that more powerful barbs come earlier in Fire vs. Light.

I see large stacks in both versions of FFH.

Well, yes of course I do. But I don't pick up goody huts near the capital for the risk of hostiles. But those moderately away are ok. First I produce a scout who will take the nearby huts and then fight animals (and hopefully capture some). Then I make more warriors that will defend the capital.
In multiplayer you can't be so "daring" though ;)

So, onedreamer, you are saying you send BOTH Warriors out exploring, but you don't pop any goodie huts with them close to your city? Then, you build a Scout and send him out for the goodie huts?

I don't suppose you are playing at Epic or Marathon speed, or it would be quite a few turns before you got that next Warrior as a defender of your city. I think that is a big risk with the roving Skeletons that are so plentiful these days.

I think this is the problem with the AI and why I often see an AI civ eliminated in the early going, especially in raging barb games. They send their Warriors/Scouts exploring and leave the city without a defender for awhile. A good strategy unless you happen to have the bad luck of a Barrow producing a Skeleton or, worse yet, having the Dirge unload a few Skeletons near your civ.

I don't know, I just seem to have very bad luck using Warriors as explorers, especially with goodie huts and Giant Spiders, so I keep them either in the city or very close by.

If I see an AI killed too early, I usually go back to the previous turn autosave and delete a skeleton or two from around their city. Gotta give the AI a helping hand sometimes... I usually stop those assists around turn 100 or when Orthus comes out to play.

I don't know, I just seem to have very bad luck using Warriors as explorers, especially with goodie huts and Giant Spiders, so I keep them either in the city or very close by.
I agree. When I play at levels that are challenging for me, sending out my warriors to explore is a recipe for a very short game. At most, I send them out to within a few tiles of my borders, typically targeting hills, so they 'explore' the immediate map area around me, but then they head straight back to prepare for the onslaught.

Mmm, onslaught.

- Niilo

i think that the barb behavior needs to chanage so it attacks all civs equally instead of ganging up all on one person

I would like it if there were a diplomatic stance between war and peace. Everyone would start with this towards everyone, including barbs. Civs in this state could attach each other's units but could not capture cities. Automated units would not attack the neutral units. Attacking would not start a war, but it would upset the units owner. He would declare war with you pretty quickly if you kept this up. You could not go back to the pre-war state once you have been at war with a civ, you would need a peace treaty. Declaring war after having a peace treaty would cause other civs to dislike you, but war without peace would only effect your relations to that one civ.

I would also like it if there was a state between open and closed borders. You could move in rival territory without having an open border agreement, but this could greatly anger the owning civ. They would have every right to kill the trespassers, and could unilaterally decide to close their borders to your units. Then, your would need to either get open borders or declare war.

I think that this system is more diplomatically realistic, but will probably never be adopted. In the unlikely circumstance that it is, then the barbarians could still attack everyone but could focus on those with whom they are at war. They would chose who declare war on based on more reasonable factors, like who would be easiest to defeat. Like everyone else, they would prefer one front wars, but would be unable to make peace treaties with other civs (except those with the barbarian trait)

Anybody tried to play Clan of Embers or the Doviello? They arent in war with the barbs. Huge advantage on your "enemies", they have to build an army, you dont...!!!!!

Have you read their trait description at all?
Look in the civilipedia about those civilisations:
http://civ4wiki.com/wiki/index.php/FfH_Clan_of_Embers_%28Civilization%29

I think the barbs are good the way they are. They are much less of a threat on archipelago, or continents maps. They seem to be vanishing quickly also on maps with a lot of AIs. Axctually i find them boosting my development. I always beeline for an early, good melee unit, like axemen, or such and go searching for those poor barb cities. This does not happen too often, as now I tend to play with 14+ civs on pangea, which means a quick death for the barbs, unless they can find a spot for a city, where the AI wont be attacking them and they can put Acheron inside.

As for the barb swarms attacking me, then yeah, this can be very, very annoying, but then I know, I have the weakest military and I need to produce more units, or "pact of nilhorn" if I can. Its all to have early barb slayers. In general barbs no longer exist in my games after 300-400 years. Starting from this point, only the Acheron is a threat.

Anybody tried to play Clan of Embers or the Doviello? They arent in war with the barbs. Huge advantage on your "enemies", they have to build an army, you dont...!!!!!

But on the other hand, you have no random units to level up your troops and build a core of "veterans"

So, onedreamer, you are saying you send BOTH Warriors out exploring, but you don't pop any goodie huts with them close to your city? Then, you build a Scout and send him out for the goodie huts?

I don't suppose you are playing at Epic or Marathon speed, or it would be quite a few turns before you got that next Warrior as a defender of your city. I think that is a big risk with the roving Skeletons that are so plentiful these days.

Yeah, I don't play Epic or even less Marathon. As I said many times, I think these 2 options are totally unbalanced, and the barbarian problem is one more proof to add to a very long list. I play on standard and I have never seen a civ eliminated in the early age by barbarians. The only mod I've ever played at epic was TAM.
Btw, I move as much as I can with my initial settler and try to spot all barrows around, and send my warrior and scout to destroy those I see (leaving them in the city is probably more risky than trying to destroy the barrow). If I don't arrive in time (with Emperor you often see skeletons spawned on the barrow at turn 5 -standard speed) then I might send back the warrior (the scout is worthless to defend the city) to the city if the barrow is near enough and the city is not producing the next warrior fast enough. I also noted that barrows spawn skeletons randomly. I initially thought they would spawn them every X turns, but I noticed this is not the case.

i think that the barb behavior needs to chanage so it attacks all civs equally instead of ganging up all on one person

Yeah, this is a HUGE problem. But I haven't found a pattern for it yet. Sometimes it happens, sometimes it doesn't. I say it's a huge problem because the game becomes unplayable when it happens to you. Or at the very least, not funny anymore.

Yeah, I don't play Epic or even less Marathon. As I said many times, I think these 2 options are totally unbalanced, and the barbarian problem is one more proof to add to a very long list. I play on standard and I have never seen a civ eliminated in the early age by barbarians. The only mod I've ever played at epic was TAM.
Btw, I move as much as I can with my initial settler and try to spot all barrows around, and send my warrior and scout to destroy those I see (leaving them in the city is probably more risky than trying to destroy the barrow). If I don't arrive in time (with Emperor you often see skeletons spawned on the barrow at turn 5 -standard speed) then I might send back the warrior (the scout is worthless to defend the city) to the city if the barrow is near enough and the city is not producing the next warrior fast enough. I also noted that barrows spawn skeletons randomly. I initially thought they would spawn them every X turns, but I noticed this is not the case.

I agree that Fire is unplayable with raging barbs/aggAI, at Marathon on a huge map (land are the only one I play) with the default number of ai civs. If you add more civs, as one poster noted, it might work as it squeezes out the barbs.

However, I have found my comfort level in Fire using Epic speed with all the variables above. Yes, it can be very challenging and when you have the bad luck to be chosen to be a barb pounding board, you will fall far behind the ai civs. However, if you survive, you will have a very veteran army, especially if you have the Raider trait and you will be able to easily conquer other civs.

I found you comments on barrows interesting. I thought they spawned skeletons (same with ruins/lizardmen) on a fixed schedule - every so many turns. The earliest I saw a barrow spawn a skeleton was Turn 2 (Epic). I sent my scout to take it out and was shocked when he was killed by the skeleton that magically appeared!

Again, I think that just like there is an adjustment to when the barbs arrive on the scene based on game speed, there should also be an adjustment on when barrows/ruins spawn units and when animals appear on the map.

I also like the strategy of moving my settler at least once to get a better look at the surrounding area before settling my first city.

Well, with my PC, setting raging barbarians on a large or huge map is unplayable for me because of the load on the CPU, even on standard speeds. So I play standard maps, or no raging barbs. Sad state of affairs... but that's how it is.
On barrows, I initally started thinking the spawn rate was random because of events like the one you described (once you find skeletons very early, other times at turn 22 there is still an empty barrow, etc) . Then I placed a warrior on a forested hill accross a river next to a barrow, for defensive reasons (the barrow was near my capital and I wanted to know when a new skeleton would spawn and if lucky enough to kill him thanks to the defense boni). After a skeleton appeared, I reloaded for other reasons 2 turns back, and the 2 turns after that skeleton didn't appear again. And he didn't for a long time. So this seemingly confirmed my initial thought that skeletons don't appear at fixed intervals. I'd guess they have a % to spawn at the beginning of a turn ? Only Kael knows ;)

The chance that barrows/ruins spawn units is defined in CvMap.cpp in the SDK and as far as I can see not in any way effected by game speed. How likely they are to spawn is only effected by difficulty level (iBarbarianCityCreationProb, the higher it is the more likely something is created). No barbarians spawn if there are 5 or more units on the plot.

Snarko, the fact that the spawn rate is not affected by game speed is exactly the problem that Sarisin was pointing at. This is just one more element of unbalance of slower/faster speed compared to a game that is clearly thought on the standard speed; the other speeds have been added to make some players happy but they've really been cheated since the work done to balance the game speed changes is really approximate (I'm talking of Civ4 in general).
In the case of barrows, the problem is that skeletons will spawn more or less at the same speed of a normal game, but in a marathon game the time it will take you to build your first warrior is a lot more than the standard one, so sending out your initial warrior is almost suicidal, as he was pointing out. At least I think this is what he meant, I don't play anything else than standard speed.

Snarko, the fact that the spawn rate is not affected by game speed is exactly the problem that Sarisin was pointing at. This is just one more element of unbalance of slower/faster speed compared to a game that is clearly thought on the standard speed; the other speeds have been added to make some players happy but they've really been cheated since the work done to balance the game speed changes is really approximate (I'm talking of Civ4 in general).
In the case of barrows, the problem is that skeletons will spawn more or less at the same speed of a normal game, but in a marathon game the time it will take you to build your first warrior is a lot more than the standard one, so sending out your initial warrior is almost suicidal, as he was pointing out. At least I think this is what he meant, I don't play anything else than standard speed.

Yes, you nailed my views precisely, onedreamer. Thanks.

I'm not a programmer, but it seems to me if you can adjust the appearance of barbs in the game, you could also adjust the appearance of other things like the Sailor's Dirge, skeletons/lizardmen spawning, etc.

I haven't played a Normal speed game, but I am guessing you can build your first Warrior fairly quickly.

In Epic it takes about 30 turns. In Marathon 50 turns. Yes, this can be reduced a bit as the city grows, but the point is that it takes a long time to build that Warrior, especially compared to a Normal speed game. Yet, you are faced with skeletons, lizardmen the same time as a Normal game. You must keep at least one Warrior at home to defend, and normally it will take only two skeletons to give your game a premature end.

To carry it further, in an Epic game the barbs usually appear around yr. 72. In Marathon games around yr. 114. If you can have this graduated introduction of bad guys like barbs, why not for the others?

In Epic it takes about 30 turns. In Marathon 50 turns.
I won't disagree that the appearance of skeletons and lizardmen should be throttled to the game speed (my last game had so many skeletons in the New World that very few barbarians appeared to harass me).
However, I just want to point out that these build times, if correct (I cannot recall but they seem high), are also likely for a city left to its own devices (i.e., balancing growth with production). When faced with a threat, emphasizing production will speed things up considerable (at the cost of growing, but that's part of the strategy).

- Niilo

My last two games both huge fantasy map, epic, Prince, raging barb/aggAI:

Game 1: Reinforces my earlier point on delaying the appearance of skeletons, etc. based on game speed. I kept my Warrior at home fortifying my capital and sent my Scout out to explore. Turn 22 a Skeleton attacked and damaged my Warrior defender. Turn 23 another Skeleton killed my Warrior. Game over. I still had 4 turns to go before my next defender was built.

Game 2: From the get-go I was swarmed by Skeletons and Lizardmen were buzzing around. I successfully defended against the Skeletons, but was unable to build improvements or think about settling a second city. In Epic the goblins and orc spearmen usually show up around turn 72. It went past yr 100, then yr. 125 and yr. 150. I still saw only Skeletons and Lizardmen. Curiosity got the best of me and I opened up the World Builder. NOT A SINGLE GOBLIN OR ORC SPEARMAN ON THE MAP!! No animals either. Only Skeletons, Lizardmen, Orthus, and the Dragon! I never saw a game like this before. Every ruin and barrow had a defender on it. Each remaining goodie hut had a Skeleton defender. Around turn 200 I started to see an occasional goblin or spearman, but still plenty of Skeletons and Lizardmen which were now more aggressive.

Naturally, 4 of the AI civs could not defend against this onslaught and were wiped out making it a big tougher with more open space and few civs left.

Although I had taken out several barrows, there were some left. Also, as I mentioned before it appears that the AI was spawning Skeletons and Lizardmen very early in the game instead of the usual goblins and orc spearmen. It created quite an early challenge.

In the two games above I was surprised by something else:

In my starting position I noticed at least 2 other civs start with 2 Scouts. Morgoth, and I think it was Valledia/Amurites started (Prince difficulty) with 2 Scouts and a Warrior. Obviously, this really helps them exploring as they can send out the 2 Scouts and keep the Warrior home to defend.

Is there a place that shows the starting units for each civ? Is it dependant on game difficulty?

Thanks.

The extra scout you saw was based on your difficulty setting. This page (http://www.civ4wiki.com/wiki/index.php/FfH_Difficulty_%28Feature%29) shows the extra units the AI gets at each difficulty level. At Prince they get an extra Scout, at Monarch they get an extra defender and a worker, etc.

I'm not sure if it's stated anywhere what starting units individual civs gets.

In the two games above I was surprised by something else:

In my starting position I noticed at least 2 other civs start with 2 Scouts. Morgoth, and I think it was Valledia/Amurites started (Prince difficulty) with 2 Scouts and a Warrior. Obviously, this really helps them exploring as they can send out the 2 Scouts and keep the Warrior home to defend.

Is there a place that shows the starting units for each civ? Is it dependant on game difficulty?

Thanks.

I still had 4 turns to go before my next defender was built.
Was it possible for you to emphasize production in your city to get that warrior out sooner? I sometimes have to do that just to make sure I'm 'safe'.
NOT A SINGLE GOBLIN OR ORC SPEARMAN ON THE MAP!!
This is definitely annoying. My last FfH game had raging barbs on a terra map. I've already said what happened in that game.

Perhaps skeletons and lizardmen should have a limit below the limit of barbs (half? one quarter?). Or perhaps a ruin/barrow can only 'support' 2-3 units. I doubt either would be easy to implement...

- Niilo

Game 2: From the get-go I was swarmed by Skeletons and Lizardmen were buzzing around. I successfully defended against the Skeletons, but was unable to build improvements or think about settling a second city. In Epic the goblins and orc spearmen usually show up around turn 72. It went past yr 100, then yr. 125 and yr. 150. I still saw only Skeletons and Lizardmen. Curiosity got the best of me and I opened up the World Builder. NOT A SINGLE GOBLIN OR ORC SPEARMAN ON THE MAP!! No animals either. Only Skeletons, Lizardmen, Orthus, and the Dragon! I never saw a game like this before. Every ruin and barrow had a defender on it. Each remaining goodie hut had a Skeleton defender. Around turn 200 I started to see an occasional goblin or spearman, but still plenty of Skeletons and Lizardmen which were now more aggressive.

I think if there are a lot of barrows and ruins they spawn the max limit of barb units early and no more can be created.

I had that happen in a raging barb game where I thought it would be fun to add a huge plot of land with a bunch of ruins- after about turn 100 there were no more barbs. I didn't see any at all until I mounted an expedition to kill the lizardmen. It was strange that they never left the jungle plot I gave them too.

Sarisin, if I understand the code well, currently the skeletons and lizardmen (btw -I think- I saw that liz. assassins and undead corpse can spawn from ruins and barrows !) have a chance of appearing on a barrow or ruin every turn. So this doesn't scale to game speed, the code would need a patch to take that into consideration, maybe with a penalty to the random number which grows with speed...

Sorry to be a bit offtopic, but doesn't it take months to play a FFH game on Marathon speed or even Epic?

I only play Quick speed when playing FFH and even then I feel bogged down. I know it's intended as more of an epic game than civilization with an emphasis on the early exploration/development (one of the things I love) but the AI is too poor and the game too easy for me to commit to a Normal or slower speed game.

I usually play Quick/Standard/+1-4 Civs/Emperor+. I love the mod, but my main frustration is with the slowness of research - especially in the early game. I can't imagine Huge/Marathon...

Sorry to be a bit offtopic, but doesn't it take months to play a FFH game on Marathon speed or even Epic?



It really depends on how many hours a day you play, I suppose. :)

At the conclusion of each game you can discover how many hours you played. I think Epic/Marathon games usually take me about 40 hours or so. However, it does depend too on the type of victory. Obviously, time victories (I don't see those often in raging barb marathon games) will take longer.

Also, the hours may be inaccurate as I often walk away from my PC to do other things with the game still going.

Sarisin, if I understand the code well, currently the skeletons and lizardmen (btw -I think- I saw that liz. assassins and undead corpse can spawn from ruins and barrows !) have a chance of appearing on a barrow or ruin every turn. So this doesn't scale to game speed, the code would need a patch to take that into consideration, maybe with a penalty to the random number which grows with speed...

Yes, you are right. I never saw lizardman assassins, but I remember one game where I started to see lots of diseased corpses paying me a visit. I wondered where they came from, and, sure enough, there was a barrow that had somehow survived in a neighboring ai civ's territory. I could not go in and take it out (no open borders agreement) and the damn corpses kept stumbling into to my territory rather than going after the ai civ!:rolleyes:

Was it possible for you to emphasize production in your city to get that warrior out sooner? I sometimes have to do that just to make sure I'm 'safe'.

This is definitely annoying. My last FfH game had raging barbs on a terra map. I've already said what happened in that game.

Perhaps skeletons and lizardmen should have a limit below the limit of barbs (half? one quarter?). Or perhaps a ruin/barrow can only 'support' 2-3 units. I doubt either would be easy to implement...

- Niilo

I will try that strategy in my next game, but remember in Epic/Marathon settings cities grow a lot slower too and I'm not sure if fiddling with the production would help if you have a small pop.

I like your suggestions on the barbs and barrows.

Honestly, I don't think there will be many adjustments on the time variable of FFH or with raging barbs. FFH is a great mod, but I think most players use the faster game speeds without the raging barb option and aren't concerned with these things. I suppose it is impossible to please all the players by working on all the variables. I would love to play Fire with the variables I like (mentioned in this thread previously), but I just don't think I can. So, I enjoy playing Light with these variables and adjusting the variables to play Fire. :)

I will try that strategy in my next game, but remember in Epic/Marathon settings cities grow a lot slower too and I'm not sure if fiddling with the production would help if you have a small pop.
It won't help every time, but it can make a huge difference. The program will optimize your city's growth to have at least 2 surplus food (in my experience), so your first city, at population 1, will usually have one or two hammers of production (since the 1 citizen will typically grab a grassland tile, hopefully with forest on it). Switching that citizen to work a plains hill will increase your production to 3 hammers (in the typical situation), which can be a 200% increase. Of course, you won't be increasing your population while this is so, but I find such tactics necessary for survival in the harder games (all we humans need is to get a toe-hold and then we spread like cancer ;)).

- Niilo

I will try that strategy in my next game, but remember in Epic/Marathon settings cities grow a lot slower too and I'm not sure if fiddling with the production would help if you have a small pop.

I like your suggestions on the barbs and barrows.

Honestly, I don't think there will be many adjustments on the time variable of FFH or with raging barbs. FFH is a great mod, but I think most players use the faster game speeds without the raging barb option and aren't concerned with these things. I suppose it is impossible to please all the players by working on all the variables. I would love to play Fire with the variables I like (mentioned in this thread previously), but I just don't think I can. So, I enjoy playing Light with these variables and adjusting the variables to play Fire. :)

I like Marathon, huge.

But the game really bogs down and I tend to quit when I control half the world. So I am trying normal, large game now. I'll see if I have the stamina to actually finish a game now :)

Ditto on that. It gets to the point where there's no more point except to try to get to the end for the sake of ending it. Since I enjoy the conflict and mystery of the opening game so much, I just start another game (says the person who's played a total of two Fire games).

- Niilo

Agreed.
Once you lead the pack scorewise, motivation tends to fade quickly.
AI is simply too incompetent to do anything other than outproduce you.
And that only happens with lotsa cheating due to difficulty settings.

More on topic.. i always play epic with raging barbs.
The key is to let the starting warrior do some pet-hunting in the first 50 turns,
so you have hill defense and some combat promotions when the skellies arrive.
Don't let the scout have all the fun.