Well, there's nothing wrong with pronouncing it with a "p" sound. That's how it's pronounced in German, after all (HAHPS-boork).

Is it? Or, let me put it this way: Are you actually telling me that I can't pronounce my native language correctly? ;)

Of the several dozens of Germans I've heard pronouncing the name, none used the pronunciation you mentioned. (Actually, this pronunciation would be slightly awkward for a German, since the "ps" at the end of a syllable would usually command a short preceding vowel, but the word in question clearly has a long vowel.)

Edit: Just to clarify, I'm not saying the "p" spelling is wrong. The family is several hundred years old, and the name has been spelled in a number of ways, so I doubt there can be any "correct" spelling. However, the "p" spelling is unlikely to have originated from Germany due to various reasons, and claiming that "the German pronounciation of Habsburg" includes a "p" sound *is* wrong.

About Hapsburg-Habsburg - in Poland we write Habsburg and I think that this is the original way of writing it down (as it comes from German).

@Traitorfish - you have very strange version of our history. Jagiellonian dynasty was created by Polish Queen Jadwiga and Lithuanian Great Prince Jogaila. Their kids was as Polish as Lithuanian. The King Jagiełło was chosen by Polish nobles - it was clearly not foreign rule.
Then partitions - 1772 was the first partition, which took small parts of Commonwealth. Last partition was in 1795 and this should be considered as start of the period when we were not independent.
So 1795-1918 makes 123 years plus less than 6 year of WW2. In total: 129 years out of 966-2007=1041 years. 129/1041 = 12,4% totally different number than 38%, which I don't know how did you get.
About post-WW2 period - Poland was formally independent, but clearly a vassal state of Soviets. I don't know how to count it, bet even if we compute it with this period (1945-1989) it will be 193/1041=16,6%

BTW - today is exactly 18th anniversary of first elections in communist bloc which were not totally controlled by communists. 4th June 1989 we had elections in Poland, which were won by Solidarity movement. This is the date which we consider as end of communism in Poland, can you tell me why you consider 2007??? Do you think that Poland regained independence this year? I totally do not understand it - nothing special happened this year... Most important dates are: 1989 - first not flawed elections, 1993 - last soviet soldier left Poland after WW2, 1997 - new constitution, 1999 - joining NATO, 2004 - joining EU.

This is the date which we consider as end of communism in Poland, can you tell me why you consider 2007??? Do you think that Poland regained independence this year?
I didn't, I said 1991. Also incorrect, I'll grant you, but no quite as ridiculous as 2007.

Anyway, getting back to the original point, whatever the exact years, this still means that Poland spent the best part of the industrial and modern "eras" under the thumb of someone more powerful. There are other countries who managed to avoid that, and ones that aren't just another European civ, so I'd make them my priority.

I can live with that - you simply have different opinion than I do. I just corrected obvious errors in your previous post, like this:
and then in 1945 it was made independent until 2007
for me it meant that we regained independence in 2007, but I'm not a native English speaker, so I probably misunderstood this part.

I understand that this is just a game and people prefer more exotic civs that European to be included - you know, all those feathers, canoes and this kind of stuff :)

OK, I vote for Polyneasia ;) :D they are a great exporter of sandal wood! (and potassium - greetz Borat).
Second civ which is still missing - I would like to have Eskimoo Civilization. Unique Unit - Fast Sleigh, can move 2 tiles on ice, Unique Building - of course igloo - replaces Granary, gives bonus of 1 food on ice ;)
What do you think about it?

I can live with that - you simply have different opinion than I do. I just corrected obvious errors in your previous post, like this:
"Quote:
and then in 1945 it was made independent until 2007"
for me it meant that we regained independence in 2007, but I'm not a native English speaker, so I probably misunderstood this part.
No, that's actually my fault- what I meant was that Poland has had independence from 1945 up until and including the present date, i.e. 2007. I should have made my meaning clearer.

That might be the case, fish, but how mant other civilizations have you heard of that managed to achieve such a feat, to continue to have a seperate polish identiy even though there were many (sometimes violent) attempts to change it to the partitioning powers.

That, on it's own, was a remarkable feat which definately leaves them deserving of a spot in Civ: BTS

and then in 1945 it was made independent until 2007

English is my first language, i moved to poland when is was 6 so i already new alot of english.

Anyway to me it sounds like Poland regained independence in 1945 and lost it's independence in 2007.

I think you made a typo.

That might be the case, fish, but how mant other civilizations have you heard of that managed to achieve such a feat, to continue to have a seperate polish identiy even though there were many (sometimes violent) attempts to change it to the partitioning powers.

That, on it's own, was a remarkable feat which definately leaves them deserving of a spot in Civ: BTS
So I'm assuming you also support a Hungarian civ, a Lithuanian civ, a Latvian civ, an Estonian civ, a Finnish civ, an Armenian civ, a Bosnian civ, a Romanian civ, a Bulgarian civ, an Irish civ, a Welsh civ, a Scottish civ, a Ukrainian civ, a Breton civ, a Sami civ, a Chechnyan civ, an Albanian civ, a Montenegran civ, a Czech civ, a Slovakian civ and a Croatian civ?
You're not that big a deal, Poland. You're not even the biggest country on that list, let alone the most important. Forget your nationalism for a minute and try to be objective. I have- you'll note that Scotland was also on my list (And don't give me that "you have the Celts stuff, because the Celtic city names are 100% made up of Roman names for settlements in Gaul, and a few in southern Britain. Even if they add Boudica, that only covers the Brythonic Celts, not us Gaels.)

English is my first language, i moved to poland when is was 6 so i already new alot of english.

Anyway to me it sounds like Poland regained independence in 1945 and lost it's independence in 2007.

I think you made a typo.
Yes, I already addressed that. (scroll up a little. :rolleyes: )

That might be the case, fish, but how mant other civilizations have you heard of that managed to achieve such a feat, to continue to have a seperate polish identiy even though there were many (sometimes violent) attempts to change it to the partitioning powers.

That, on it's own, was a remarkable feat which definately leaves them deserving of a spot in Civ: BTS

Um... quite a few actually.

Except that all those other baltic states and ukraine didn't really have a seperate national identity until much later...

Unfortunately, I don't know much about the other states.

Mate, how am I being nationalistic here? I'm an AUSTRALIAN.

Except that all those other baltic states and ukraine didn't really have a seperate national identity until much later...

Unfortunately, I don't know much about the other states.

Mate, how am I being nationalistic here? I'm an AUSTRALIAN.

The Baltic states and Ukraine had a separate national identity. What they didn't have was independence.

No. Latvia, Estonia, etc didn't have a national identity of being Latvian or Estonian.

No. Latvia, Estonia, etc didn't have a national identity of being Latvian or Estonian.

They did. That's why they became independent countries in 1918 and 1991, respectively.

Wait, actually no-one has had a seperate Polish identity except for Poland. J/k, I know what you mean.

Even IF the Balkans didn't have a seperate identity, there are still MANY other places that did.

The Baltic states and Ukraine had a separate national identity. What they didn't have was independence.

@Öjevind Lång: Good point. I'm not actively debating here, but good point.


@Anyone interested in the Austrian name from earlier: The 'p' is an English thing--the Germans use a 'b' if I'm not mistaken. I'm not fluent in German, so I'm not too sure, but if you go to an American university, you can expect to see the 'p' spelling appear quite often. At least when I took my history classes I saw the 'p' spelling.

What I don't like here is that people tend to say that Poland should be included before X and Y... I wrote it several times, but I will repeat - as a petition creator - it was meant to be solely in favor of adding Poland, never against any other country.
Of course I think that it is possible to find some arguments which in my opinion should put Poland in first row of civs to be added, but I know that Firaxis is using totally different criteria and I know that if Poland will exist in BtS, then it will only in a scenario, like it was in Warlords. Maybe this time they will go one step further and make Poland playable in WW2 scenario, but probably not - there will be simply Axis and Allies...

Poland would be an interesting choice, largely due to their dominance in the medieval period. Australia might be interesting for a post-modern choice. Not certain regarding the smaller Baltic states that were subsumed by the Russian bear. Ukraine would be kinda neat, considering Kiev's and Moscow's struggle to become the dominant political power during the early medieval period.

Maybe this time they will go one step further and make Poland playable in WW2 scenario, but probably not - there will be simply Axis and Allies...
Well, it would probably make for a pretty dull game. Best you could hope for would be to become Hitler's vassal, which basically involve sitting put while he invades the USSR.

well i think they want to make an "amazing" WW2 Scenario this time so i wouldn't be surprised if each nation that had something to do with the war, in this case Poland, Will each be playable for the scenario. But would you be surprised if they make it in?

Poland really didn't play a BIG part in WW2, they were just invaded and fell to the Nazis in less than three days.

Germany attacked Poland on 1 September 1939. On the 17, the Soviet joined them. The Polish army surrendered on 6 October.

For comparison, the Battle of France lasted from 10 May to 25 June 1940.

Actually we never surrendered, there was no treaty or anything.

And we kept on fighting till the end, My great grandfather fought in the Battle of Poland, Monte Casino, D-Day and Market Garden himself. Many other poles fought even more then he has.

And yes we played a big part to the war, it's just the American view is very limited to the Western front and the Pacific. And how are we supposed to fight against Germany, Russia, and Slovakia at the same time? In comparison to the French who had only fought the Germans and surrendered nearly the same time as the Pole's "unofficial" Surrender. And besides i though Poland's "surrender" was a bit later then that, well whatever i'm probably wrong.

AntiLogic:
@Anyone interested in the Austrian name from earlier: The 'p' is an English thing--the Germans use a 'b' if I'm not mistaken. I'm not fluent in German, so I'm not too sure, but if you go to an American university, you can expect to see the 'p' spelling appear quite often. At least when I took my history classes I saw the 'p' spelling.

Just so it's known; back in late 2005 Firaxis put a poll up on its website asking poeple what they wanted to see in future expansions. Among the listed civs that could be ticked off were the Habsburgs, not the Hapsburgs.

TheLastOne36,

On a side note, being that today is the anniversary of D-Day (June 6th 1944), I hope the importance of what your great grandfather was a part of is remembered and celebrated. :)

Actually we never surrendered, there was no treaty or anything.

And we kept on fighting till the end, My great grandfather fought in the Battle of Poland, Monte Casino, D-Day and Market Garden himself. Many other poles fought even more then he has.

And yes we played a big part to the war, it's just the American view is very limited to the Western front and the Pacific. And how are we supposed to fight against Germany, Russia, and Slovakia at the same time? In comparison to the French who had only fought the Germans and surrendered nearly the same time as the Pole's "unofficial" Surrender. And besides i though Poland's "surrender" was a bit later then that, well whatever i'm probably wrong.

Notice I wrote the Polish army surrendered, not Poland, not the Poles themselves. And I put in the dates of the French campaign exactly because it didn't last much longer, and they weren't sandwiched as you between two overwhelming forces. So if I gave the impression that I was trying to diminish the worth of your effort, I apologise.

dutchking - you really need some history background :) Polish forces were one of biggest in WW2 - according to www.ww2.pl portal fourth in terms of numbers Allied Army. They fought all over the Europe and Middle East in five groups: 1. regular Polish Army, 2. army formed in France in 1939, 2. army formed in UK 1940, 3. gen. Anders Army - 1941, formed in USSR - then they fought in Southern Europe, 4. 1943 again in USSR, this army fought together wuth Red Army on Eastern Front, 5. Polish Home Army (Armia Krajowa) - underground army acting in occupied Poland.
I have no time to enumerate all places, but I will post at least few best known: Battle of England, Narvik, Tobruk, Monte Cassino, Narmandy Invasion, Falaise, Chambois, Arnhem, whole eastern front, Polish Navy operated on Atlantic and Northern Sea all the war. At the end of war there was 600 thousands of Polish soldiers fighting in Western and Eastern Europe.

I don't think that if in this WW2 scenario when Nazi invades Poland and before Soviets invade (so between 1st and 17th September) France and UK would actually invade western Germany then situation of Poland would be so bad... we had quite big army, if Soviets wouldn't join Nazis and France and UK tied up some forces in the West, then it might be possible to defend Poland.

Well Civ 4 is a "what If" Game, So it would be funny if it ended up Poland conquering Germany before Soviets get a chance to play there part :D :crazyeye: :crazyeye: :lol:

Don't forget that the Poles cracked the code for the Enigma machine.

"The German military model, the Wehrmacht Enigma, is the version most commonly discussed. The machine has gained notoriety because Allied cryptologists were able to decrypt a large number of messages that had been enciphered on the machine. Decryption was made in 1932 by Polish cryptographers Marian Rejewski, Jerzy Różycki and Henryk Zygalski from Cipher Bureau. In mid-1939 reconstruction and decryption methods were delivered from Poland to Britain and France. The intelligence gained through this source—codenamed ULTRA—was a significant aid to the Allied war effort. The exact influence of ULTRA is debated, but a typical assessment is that the end of the European war was hastened by two years because of the decryption of German ciphers."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enigma_machine


It can also be added that the Polish military consisted of 1.7m soldiers (a lot for a 30m populated country), but only 900k were employed largely due to confusion in the first days of the invasion. German planes also bombed most of the main transportation/communication centers making it even harder for the Poles to organize a decent defense, and out of those 900k only ~200k had reached their assigned units on August 31.
The Polish army was "large" in essence, but it was horribly equipped. The infantry, the tanks, planes everything was out-dated. There was also a great lack of anti-tank guns. There were already newer models of tanks&planes in production or at least on the drawing table in 1939, but the Poles weren't expecting a war until 1942 (that is when their 10 year non-aggression pact with Germany ended), therefore all their war preparation was based on that.

I believe Poland couldn't had done much more in preparation for the war,being a financially weak nation and already pouring 1/3 of its income into the military. After all it had just regained its independence 20 years before the war and at that time the country was a mess and in the first years the Governments expanses were 3x larger than the income.

Poland's big mistake was trying to keep an equilibrium between Germany & Russia and counting too much on their British and France allies. Poland didn't want to side with Germany to not provoke Russia and via versa.
The sad fact remains that France had a larger and more powerful army than Germany at the start of the war, if they would had the courage to invade Germany then perhaps Europe could had been saved from the war.

Yes, sadly. That will always remain a what could have been.

I would reeeaaalllyy like some different civs. By different I mean ones that arn't used in many other historical games. I'd love Poland, or Australia, or, Canada! :D

I just think it would be interesting and unique.

@Pullman - I remember about Enigma, in fact my first job after I graduated from my university was in 'Pyry' district of Warsaw city. Before war it was outside of Warsaw - there was a cryptologic center where Enigma code was broken. I worked in the same buildings where Enigma brokers worked - Marian Rejewski, Jerzy Różycki and Henryk Zygalski. There is a big stone with a plate to commemorate it. You can read about it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cipher_Bureau - first this Bureau was in center of Warsaw, then it was moved to Pyry.
Sad thing about thing Enigma-thing is that though Enigma was broken in early 30s, British didn't recognized it until around 10 years ago. If you check older than 10 years editions of Britannica, you will find that Enigma was broken by British cryptologist during the war. It was less than 10 years ago when they finally admitted that Polish cryptologists sent them algorithms to decode and encode Enigma messages. This sad thing lead lead to movies like 'The Enigma Code' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enigma_%28movie%29 where movie makers show that British cracked Enigma Code and Pole is a traitor... while "historically, the only known traitor active at Bletchley Park, was British spy John Cairncross, who passed crucial secrets to the Soviet Union." (cited from wiki).
British cryptologists also contributed a lot, because later Germans improved Enigma and British constructed something like a computer which could decrypt faster those messages.

About 1939 - AFAIK Poland had plan "Z" (like Zachód = West) to defend in case of an attack from west and plan "W" (like Wschód = East) to defend in case of an attack from east, there was no plan "WZ"... Maybe our romantic Slavic soul made us believe that our allies will help us as they said. Unfortunately they didn't and this is one of the reasons why even today Poland is so USA-oriented, they tend to defend their allies and secondly really a lot of Poles live in USA.

This might be off-topic, but generally, there are a lot of very, very bad films on historical events around.

Just think about U571...

I think I can solve the problem of this thread as well. No, it shouldn't be, at least not yet. Let the slightly better civ past first. Like Austria, Israel, some place smaller than Nauru...

I am seeing now this numerous 'Poland has to be a civilization'-topics for a long long while and I simply dont catch it.

Why is it so important that Poland is an 'official' civilization in a GAME ?

What is this all about ?

I mean we all appreciate the progress Poland has made in the last 15 years as an independent state, but is it necessary to overreact, to become overconfident and to get so heavy into this patriotic thingy ? It is mere ridiculous!

I understand that there is no logical reasoning with the patriotic Poles who simply forget the fact that Poland had never any landshaping role in the World or even in Europe. There was never any 'Polish' Age in this World and never any real significance for the development of this world for good or bad. (especially as a German I would stress on both angles). Tell me which influence even the Polish-Lithuanian Realm had for Europe ? And if you name 3 famous Poles like Copernicus and Chopin then I certainly can name at least 10 famous Russians or even Americans (despite their very short history). So obviously there is no logical argument.

But even emotionally it simply doesnt make sense (for me). What is it that you want to get out of this threads ? What is it giving to you ? Why is it so important to have your home country as a civilization in a game ? (apart from the obviously emotionally burdened thingy that Poles do not want to be represented by Russians or Germans.) Please explain yourself..

I am seeing now this numerous 'Poland has to be a civilization'-topics for a long long while and I simply dont catch it.

Why is it so important that Poland is an 'official' civilization in a GAME ?

What is this all about ?

I mean we all appreciate the progress Poland has made in the last 15 years as an independent state, but is it necessary to overreact, to become overconfident and to get so heavy into this patriotic thingy ? It is mere ridiculous!

I understand that there is no logical reasoning with the patriotic Poles who simply forget the fact that Poland had never any landshaping role in the World or even in Europe. There was never any 'Polish' Age in this World and never any real significance for the development of this world for good or bad. (especially as a German I would stress on both angles). Tell me which influence even the Polish-Lithuanian Realm had for Europe ? And if you name 3 famous Poles like Copernicus and Chopin then I certainly can name at least 10 famous Russians or even Americans (despite their very short history). So obviously there is no logical argument.

But even emotionally it simply doesnt make sense (for me). What is it that you want to get out of this threads ? What is it giving to you ? Why is it so important to have your home country as a civilization in a game ? (apart from the obviously emotionally burdened thingy that Poles do not want to be represented by Russians or Germans.) Please explain yourself..

Dunno, I just want to play as my fatherland, just like I prefer playing as my favorite football club in Football Manager. It is certainly more fun playing Civ (at least for me) when you are playing as the country that you are from.
Sure you can download mods but often they aren't compatible with the new expansions/patches.

I don't think it is a HUGE matter of difference. With or without Poland, Civ will still remain a great game which I love playing.

I signed your guys petition. :)

Poland vs. Portugal?

Portugal was important for quite a short time in history and I'm not sure whether Poland or Portugal is a more obvious choice for the BTS expansion. Portugal: one wonder (Magellan's Exp.). Poland: one wonder. Poland for obvious reasons could not colonize South America, but instead it did "colonize" one fifth of Europe.


Hey hey hey... wait a minute!! :mad: :mad: :mad:

I' don't know if the Magellan Exp can be cosidered a wonder, but if it is, it should definitely be a spanish one!!!

I know Magallanes was Portuguese, but still:

1. Magallanes was a Portuguese-born maritime explorer who, at the service of Spain, attempted to find a westward route to the Spice Islands of Indonesia.

2. He did not complete his final westward voyage; he was killed during the Battle of Mactan in the Philippines.

3. Of the 270 crew members who set out with Magellan to circumnavigate the globe, only 18 managed to return to Spain and thereby complete the circumnavigation. They were led by Spanish Juan Sebastián Elcano, who took over command of the expedition after Magellan's death.

4. Magellan did not intend to circumnavigate the world, only to find a secure way through which the Spanish ships could navigate to the Spice Islands. It was Elcano, who, after Magellan's death, decided to push westwards, thereby completing the first voyage around the entire Earth.

(sorry for the copy-paste from the wiki, i'm just too lazy... :cool: )

Anyway it seems they had a quite international crew, with spanish, portuguese, italian, french, english and german sailors...

I am seeing now this numerous 'Poland has to be a civilization'-topics for a long long while and I simply dont catch it.

Why is it so important that Poland is an 'official' civilization in a GAME ?

What is this all about ?

I mean we all appreciate the progress Poland has made in the last 15 years as an independent state, but is it necessary to overreact, to become overconfident and to get so heavy into this patriotic thingy ? It is mere ridiculous!

I understand that there is no logical reasoning with the patriotic Poles who simply forget the fact that Poland had never any landshaping role in the World or even in Europe. There was never any 'Polish' Age in this World and never any real significance for the development of this world for good or bad. (especially as a German I would stress on both angles). Tell me which influence even the Polish-Lithuanian Realm had for Europe ? And if you name 3 famous Poles like Copernicus and Chopin then I certainly can name at least 10 famous Russians or even Americans (despite their very short history). So obviously there is no logical argument.

But even emotionally it simply doesnt make sense (for me). What is it that you want to get out of this threads ? What is it giving to you ? Why is it so important to have your home country as a civilization in a game ? (apart from the obviously emotionally burdened thingy that Poles do not want to be represented by Russians or Germans.) Please explain yourself..

Oh, Your going down...

I'll let most of the other posters to rip you apart but i'm gonna take away a few points right now.

I mean we all appreciate the progress Poland has made in the last 15 years as an independent state, but is it necessary to overreact, to become overconfident and to get so heavy into this patriotic thingy ? It is mere ridiculous!

I hope you know that poland has been a nation for over 1000 years now. Poland might of not always been independent but it has for the majority of it's past. I suggest you read the entire topic and read many others posts in this topic.

And if you name 3 famous Poles like Copernicus and Chopin then I certainly can name at least 10 famous Russians or even Americans (despite their very short history). So obviously there is no logical argument.

Here's the answer: Polish history isn't taught in American Schools, Famous Polish people aren't as "famous", There not well known enough mainly because most of the Polish history has been overshadowed by bigger, Stronger nations such as England and France, and famous discoveries by Polish people aren't gonna be known in England or France.

^ i think that paragraph was confusing :crazyeye:

Why is it so important to have your home country as a civilization in a game ? (apart from the obviously emotionally burdened thingy that Poles do not want to be represented by Russians or Germans.)

I'll explain that to you quick here and now.

Yes you got it correct this time, We don't like to be represented by Russians and especially Germans.

But not just that, There's a complete lack of civs in east europe, Germany is in west europe, and Greece is in south europe.

So the only East European civ is Russia.

And MANY non Russians Slavs would completely hate the idea of being represented by Russia and only Russia. So if you were to fill in the gap for an east European civ, Then Poland is the obvious choice.

And Austria, many people will debate the fact if there even East Europeans, There Germans, and the Vast Majority of East Europe is Slavs so it wouldn't represent east Europe, and it doesn't help the problem about Slavs being represented by Russia only.

I remember we had the same debate over the inclusion of Poland in the Rhye's and Fall of Civilization forum, and the vast majority of us were against it because there was simply no room on the map. However, in discussing the epic game, I will agree that Eastern Europe most definitely needs better representation and that either Poland or Romania are the best candidates. Between those two, I would say Poland gets it.

And Austria...blah blah blah...They're Germans.

:nono: No no...as an Austrian, (who is actually part German, I'm a mutt I live near New York, whatever), I would say that we aren't Germans. Sure we speak German, have a similar culture (but still different), and are in the same region, I'll tell you one thing right now, it's kinda like the Irish-English thing (I'm both of those too :lol: ). Irish people don't like being considered part of the British Isle. So Austria doesn't like being thought of as part of Germany. Germans have their own agenda, cash, tanks, massive killings, etc. Austrians just like to dance around in a ball room. :lol:

Fine i agree with you, but the problem is how are you going to represent East Europe with Romania or Austria or even Hungary when the Vast Vast VAST majority is Slavs? And Russia isn't enough.

@Rod - I think that you are not too good in history of Europe in XV-XVI centuries, if you say that "Poland had never any landshaping role in the World or even in Europe". The fact that you don't know European history too well will not convince me that I should resign from our petition...
http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/shepherd/europe_1560.jpg
@dutchking - the main difference between Ireland-England and Germany-Austria is ethnic origin of those pairs - totally different for former and the same for latter...

I say screw poland and welcome Lithuania.
Give me Austria, the greatness and Austria and the Greatness of Germany were two very different things. I think it would be better to just cull people who think Austria and Germany are exactly the same. Modern Austria is not even a shell of what it once was, its greatness is a thing that should be tributed in this game, Poland however was for a short period near good enough, but I still wouldn't say it's good enough.

I thought Naples, Scicly and Sardinia was spanish in 1560?

Poland , I think has close to 40 million people .Much larger than either Portugal or the Netherlands. Sure they didn't travel the world exploring and empire building but if you're sandwiched between Germany and Russia it kind of restricts you a little .

Poland , I think has close to 40 million people .Much larger than either Portugal or the Netherlands. Sure they didn't travel the world exploring and empire building but if you're sandwiched between Germany and Russia it kind of restricts you a little .

Does the fact that they have 40 million people (which isn't really that big) make them so they have to be a civ? I don't really think population matters in whether or not a country should be a Civilization. :dunno:

I say screw poland and welcome Lithuania.
Give me Austria, the greatness and Austria and the Greatness of Germany were two very different things. I think it would be better to just cull people who think Austria and Germany are exactly the same. Modern Austria is not even a shell of what it once was, its greatness is a thing that should be tributed in this game, Poland however was for a short period near good enough, but I still wouldn't say it's good enough.

Thank you! Someone finally agrees with me! :goodjob: (even though I signed the Poland petition, hehehe)

@Rod - I think that you are not too good in history of Europe in XV-XVI centuries, if you say that "Poland had never any landshaping role in the World or even in Europe". The fact that you don't know European history too well will not convince me that I should resign from our petition...

@dutchking - the main difference between Ireland-England and Germany-Austria is ethnic origin of those pairs - totally different for former and the same for latter...

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Do you realize, that your map makes more of a case for Austria than for Poland? Hint: There is an orange line on that map denoting the European empire of the Austrian Charles V.

Besides that for every European civ in the game (expcept maype the netherlands) there is probably a point in history where its territory was larger than the Polish-Lithuanian territory (And the Polish part of that wasn't that big anyway)

Poland is stuck between Russia and Germany... and so they can't be great. Wait, maybe if I say it again it might just possibly make sense. okay, Poland is stuck between Russia and Germany... and so they can't be great. Nope, not working.

So, let us dismantle your "argument".

You argument starts with an assumtion and then goes onto say that a countries population could qualify it to be in a computer game of Great Civilizations. This population of course is from today, so in other words places like Babylon are no longer in. So by your method the civs in the game are
1. China
2. India
3. USA
4. Indonesia
5. Brazil
6. Pakistan
7. Bangaladesh
8. Nigeria
9. Russia
10. Japan
11. Mexico
12. The Phillipines
13. Vietnam
14. Germany
15. Ethiopia
16. Egypt
17. Turkey
18. Iran
19. France
20. Thailand
21. DRC
22. UK
23. Cheaters
24. Myanmar
25. South Africa
26. South Korea
27. Ukraine
28. Spain
29. Colombia
30. Tanzania
31. Argentina
32. Sudan
33. Poland
34. Kenya

Genius, pure Genius!

Next, their great, however they didn't have the power to compete with those around them and so never became great. Like in AFL, you think they need pity-points for missing the main goal of being awesome. I think Kuwait should be in for being stuck between Iraq and Iran, yeah *smashes head against desk*.

I rate your argument:
*Drum Rolls*
Labor's 2004 election campaign
Congratulations, your a failure, but don't worry you can get a new leader whilst you current one writes a book on how bad a leader he was and then blames it on other people. Of course that leader will be relaced with a Al Gore like figure who everyone one loves dispite the fact he's full of 'Yasmin's getting Married'.

Getting past all this, no poland, shut up. I suggest we get a WINGE thread for you people. If it was down to pure votes, Hitler would still be in power. If you don't think that makes sense, read everyones arguments about Poland being in, they make much less sense.

Hi-five Dutchking, the dutch rock! They're in and all is good in the world. The poles arn't in yet and the balence remains. [The Dutch balence the Native Americans and therfore make the game playable]

expcept maype the netherlands
The Dutch Empire:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c2/DutchEmpire.png/800px-DutchEmpire.png
Not as big as the British, Spanish, French or Portuguese Empires, but bigger than Poland ever was.

Traitorfish you legend!!! Let's join forces and make a winge thread for these people!

And Austria, many people will debate the fact if there even East Europeans, There Germans

More like 'wannabe-Germans' :lol:

and the Vast Majority of East Europe is Slavs so it wouldn't represent east Europe, and it doesn't help the problem about Slavs being represented by Russia only.

If there was no 'Russian' civ, I wouldn't mind a 'Slavic' civilization, but it makes no sense to me to have both 'Russians' and 'Slavs' in the game.

I think Austria would be in before Poland but the problem is that, is Austria really east European?

And besides, i think what people want is a Slavic representation besides Russia because i don't think many Slavs throughout Eastern Europe like being represented by Russia because of the recent history with Russia.

Bullseye! Not to forget that the Slavs are the most numerous people of Europe, and most of them have a negative stance towards Russia.


And by the way.... :hammer: Poland has had a large impact on European history (and therefor of the world) effectively stopping German expansion in to the east in 1410 and as the bulwark of Christianity towards the east, fending of the Ottomans, Tatars and such, and not the least miraculously fending of the Bolsheviks in 1920, who would have over run most of war weary Europe in no time.

The problem is rather with Poland's Image and PR, because these situations have had a low attention factor because they stopped something that would have made an enormous change of over all history, but never happened. These where historical key
situations, undeservingly omitted by Western historians.

This is why many Poles feel Poland deserves more attention from the "West", and the lack of Poland in CIV is one more reminder of the lack of it.

Bolsheviks, they had been screwed to the wall by the russian civil war, a slight breeze could have knocked them over. The red army was a joke at that time. If I had a release the toxic gas in the idiots face button, at this time it would be you.

Bolsheviks, they had been screwed to the wall by the russian civil war, a slight breeze could have knocked them over. The red army was a joke at that time. If I had a release the toxic gas in the idiots face button, at this time it would be you.

For your information the Battle at the Wisla in 1920 was widely considered amongst military historians as one of the twenty (if not ten) greatest battles in recorded history, before the second world war that is, you impolite ignoramus.

Edit to add:
The Soviets had 950,000 combatants with 5,000,000 reserves, if thats your idea of a joke.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish-Soviet_War

Poland is stuck between Russia and Germany... and so they can't be great. Wait, maybe if I say it again it might just possibly make sense. okay, Poland is stuck between Russia and Germany... and so they can't be great. Nope, not working.

So, let us dismantle your "argument".

You argument starts with an assumtion and then goes onto say that a countries population could qualify it to be in a computer game of Great Civilizations. This population of course is from today, so in other words places like Babylon are no longer in. So by your method the civs in the game are
1. China
2. India
3. USA
4. Indonesia
5. Brazil
6. Pakistan
7. Bangaladesh
8. Nigeria
9. Russia
10. Japan
11. Mexico
12. The Phillipines
13. Vietnam
14. Germany
15. Ethiopia
16. Egypt
17. Turkey
18. Iran
19. France
20. Thailand
21. DRC
22. UK
23. Cheaters
24. Myanmar
25. South Africa
26. South Korea
27. Ukraine
28. Spain
29. Colombia
30. Tanzania
31. Argentina
32. Sudan
33. Poland
34. Kenya

Genius, pure Genius!

Next, their great, however they didn't have the power to compete with those around them and so never became great. Like in AFL, you think they need pity-points for missing the main goal of being awesome. I think Kuwait should be in for being stuck between Iraq and Iran, yeah *smashes head against desk*.

I rate your argument:
*Drum Rolls*
Labor's 2004 election campaign
Congratulations, your a failure, but don't worry you can get a new leader whilst you current one writes a book on how bad a leader he was and then blames it on other people. Of course that leader will be relaced with a Al Gore like figure who everyone one loves dispite the fact he's full of 'Yasmin's getting Married'.

Getting past all this, no poland, shut up. I suggest we get a WINGE thread for you people. If it was down to pure votes, Hitler would still be in power. If you don't think that makes sense, read everyones arguments about Poland being in, they make much less sense.

Hi-five Dutchking, the dutch rock! They're in and all is good in the world. The poles arn't in yet and the balence remains. [The Dutch balence the Native Americans and therfore make the game playable]

Hehehe, I like this guy :goodjob: . That's a very good take on the "issue/argument".

The Dutch Empire:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c2/DutchEmpire.png/800px-DutchEmpire.png
Not as big as the British, Spanish, French or Portuguese Empires, but bigger than Poland ever was.

Yayyyyyy! :p Take that Poles! :lol:
:joke:

Wikipedia, what an awesome source, hasn't been wrong entirely before or anything. Sure, I could right now make you be a gayrights activist and nobody would relise how false the statement was until informed 3 weeks later.

*claps rather unconvincingly*
I applaude you mere internet person. Now remember that like during the first world war there was a gun per 2 or 3 people. Also Poland does deserve a position in a later game, but there are more pressing matters so I'll continue with my. Haha, Poland is a hole that shouldn't be in and its creating caused the Second World War.

Haha, Poland is a hole that shouldn't be in and its creating caused the Second World War.

Are you joking...hehehe...if you aren't I think you're damn crazy though...:lol:

Yeah, I'm just sick of their winging about civs like Poland over and over again, in fact let us lighten the mood with a yay for the dutch thread and an up beat dance tune.

Hes crazy alright, with the loss of his ego, one can practically hear the hiss of it evaporating as he goes for "comic bookstore guy" (Simpsons) grade sarcasm with such beauties as "*claps rather unconvincingly*" and "I applaude you mere internet person.", and then rushes of for "Now remember that like during the first world war there was a gun per 2 or 3 people.", which he probably has mixed with the landing of soviets in Stalingrad in the movie "Enemy at the gates".

My eyes are watering with pity...

I don't watch movies, most of them these days are just generic poormans struggle to help his family or misportraying of history for real profits.

Loss of ego, *looks back through his own messages looking for this*. No really remember, the Russian/Soviet Army was very weak at the time, anyhow the war is a very confusing topic which flips between was it Poland or the Russians who were the aggresors and due to the fact that Poland took Vilnius in 1920 I think I have to take the Soviet opinion on this one and say Poland was nothing more than a bully of those who looked weak and the Soviet did shut them up. Poland did get what was coming to them in 1939, they weren't exactly the poor innocent little country people seem to say they are today. Now, take note: I'm awesome, your not. Also really remember, during charges on the eastern front during the Second World War allot of Russian charged with Pitchforks and not bayonettes, but thats not important because it's not spelled out in capatilised bold in wikipedia. Now just crawl back into your corner, and just think about Poland, the nation that was royaly rooted for its arogants.

Whatever, the bottom line is Poland won't be a civ in this expansion.

here, here

Now everyone to the Upbeat dance tune and celebrate the dutch.

Actualy lets change that upbeat dance tune to and play Money for nothing on my new Turner

Talk of Austria being a separate civilisation in any historical context is a historical joke, only producable by people with little or no knowledge of history. Shall we renamed Civ 4 - "Post-19th century Sovereign States"? At least Poland is a historical nation, with a historically distincitive identity and culture (though I recall a letter between a medieval Polish Duke and the King of Bohemia talking about shared language and culture). I don't support the inclusion of Poland for reasons I've already given, but Poland goes in well ahead of Austria for the main game for common sense reasons besides being historically more important that that little region, whose only importance comes from being the place where the main cluster of Hapbsurg estates in Germany lay, and in as a 2nd rate power in the 19th and early 20th centuries. Lithuania, the Magyars/Hungary, Poland, Bulgaria, Serbia in that order are the states/civs needed for expansion of E. European representation, not a German-march/archduchy. Austria can come into individual scenarios designed to simulate state interaction/rivalry at particular points in history in Europe, but cannot come into the maingame when Germany is already there. That is unless we add scores more "civs" such as Wessex, Northumbria, Castile, Aragon, Novgorod, Saxony, Bavaria, Franconia, Gascony, Normandy, Lombardy, several historical Chinese states, etc, etc. But knowing the civ developers, they'll probably add Austria anyways. :lol: :(

:nono: No no...as an Austrian, (who is actually part German, I'm a mutt I live near New York, whatever), I would say that we aren't Germans. Sure we speak German, have a similar culture (but still different), and are in the same region, I'll tell you one thing right now, it's kinda like the Irish-English thing (I'm both of those too :lol: ). Irish people don't like being considered part of the British Isle. So Austria doesn't like being thought of as part of Germany. Germans have their own agenda, cash, tanks, massive killings, etc. Austrians just like to dance around in a ball room. :lol:

Austria is German in most meaningful ways, and the relationship between Germany and Austria is not in any way comparable with the relationship between Ireland and England. Austrians are, in fact, historical Bavarians and undoutedly would have regarded themselves as such into the present if it hadn't been for political developments. Austria, originally Ostmark or the [Bavarian] East March. was to Bavaria what Brandenburg (from in a manner of speaking the "Saxon East March") was to Saxony. Austrians - whatever that means (see below), always regarded themselves as German until recently as I'm sure everyone here knows. And in fact, if you speak to Austrians today - esp. older ones - you'll find they still unconsciously think of themelves as Germans, even if they don't think of this as their nationality.

I can't stand how people almost univerally accept and are prepared to rewrite history in order to sustain culturally and historically arbitrary, recently erected political boundaries, esp. when they were created by foreigners to weaken them. I mean, you get some arbitrary country/detached region created in order to weaken Germany, brainwash its inhabitants, and then they start talking of historical Austrians and Germans as if they were different. Whereas, if you asked any "Austrian" before 1945 what ethnicity he or she was (and in fact even if you asked most Austrians today, in an indirect way), I think you know what they would say. And why did no Austrians settle in the USA before the end of WWII? Answer? They all were recorded and were happy to be recorded as "Germans". By contrast, Scots, Irish and Scots-Irish were not recorded as English or even British. And what is a historical "Austrian" anyway? Someone, for instance, from 18th century or 19th century Salzburg would not have regarded themselves as Austrian even in a regional way, since Salzburg was not part of Austria, but part of the Archbishopric of Salzburg under the King of Germany. Oh, and what was that title the Archbishop used and still uses to this day? Oh yeah, Primas Germaniae, "first of Germany"! Oh, and what about the Deutschlandlied, the German national anthem, music written by Joseph Haydn as the anthem for the German Emperor/Archduke of Austria, Francis II.

Austria is not some neighbour of Germany comparable to Ireland, Scotland or Wales with England. Irish, Scots and Welsh have never ever ever thought of themselves or been thought of as English. The latter are ancient Celtic nations with partial cultural and less partial linguistic anglicisation and political incorporation (not longer applicable btw for most of Ireland). Austria is a result, like Brandenburg, of High Medieval expansion of the German people and state into neighbouring Slavic lands. Austria is more like the English march counties (Shropshire, Herefordshire, etc), except that Austria became the centre of the confederal German state in the early modern era and contains some of the main centres of High German culture, whereas the English march counties were always culturally and politically peripheral. And indeed after the disolution of the "thousand year old" German state in 1806, Austria became the main hope for the ressurection of a united Germany, until defeated by Prussia, a state that only became mostly German because of recent territorial acquisitions.

Germans have their own agenda, cash, tanks, massive killings, etc. Austrians just like to dance around in a ball room. :lol:

I see you've been watching the Sound of Music? :lol: Austrians and Bavarians in fact provided much of the core of the Nazi movement. The Austrians loved their glorious Nazi party and its anti-semitic and expansionary policies as much as if not more so than other Germans. I mean, where was Hitler from .... eh? If it wasn't for the fact that the US and the Soviets decided between themselves to separate Austria again, the Austrians today would be good nationalistic guilt-ridden Germans.

Calm down people ,especially Barton . Don't go banging your head. First of all I'm not Polish and have no nationalistic motive for seeing Poland or any other country or civ in the game. I would say however that Eastern Europe as compared to Western Europe lacks representation . It seems to me that Poland because of among other things it's size is the strongest candidate. Yet BTS will add two more West European civs.
I absolutely stand by my point about Poland being sandwiched between Russia and Germany . In CIV IV terms it's like starting between Monty and Ghengis with no copper, iron or horses. I'd restart the game. I think the history of Poland would back me up on this.
Your list .....well done , it looks pretty good to me . Of course a few names will have to change to reflect the ancient nature of some (Incans, Mayans, Aztecs, Zulus etc ) but basically they're all there aren't they except you seem to have missed Italy/Rome out which unfortunately relegates Kenya . Oh well perhaps they'll get in the next expansion . I don't know who Cheaters and DRC are BTW.

Nice, nice...
Now you have some good points, especially the Austrians are Germans, which is true. Now the point still remains the massive empire under the Austrian and Hapsburgs name, you may not be seeing the wood from the trees here but, I have a real thing about empire over people. I hate the idea of a Native American civilization for that reason, and the celts somewhat annoy me, but I have already given up that rant. Though I am still of the belief that Vienna and Austria do deserve a civ of their own for some of the greatly significant things they had achived and more importantly what the Hapsburgs had done. Though it would be hard in the format of the game to have a Hapsburgs empire. But yes, in allot of Ways Austria was sort of like a more modern Poland, Big empire for a few hundred years then collapse, but they were also an intergral part of the Holy Roman Empire, but it is true they can be under the name of German threre.

Maybe I need to put it down to decide yourselves. I know I think they should be in. Austria was a great and powerful empire that covered allot of Eastern Europe and the Balkans. But the question is down to were they powerful enough for long enough.

In the same way I think Poland should be in a future expansion, but still NOT THIS ONE. I think poland is just under the line at which I would put it in. But you know.

Also Austria is very different to Bavaria now, they have crafted a new identity, remember in under william the conquerer the official language of England was French. Shakespear made nearly half the english language, and english is now essentially a hybrid of Germanic, Romantic & Celtic languages. Things change with time.

Whatever, the bottom line is Poland won't be a civ in this expansion.

Yeah your probably right, would have been fun dough...


Anyway, note how our mutual friend talks of himself in the third person” *looks back through his own messages looking for this*”, actually finding it important to defend his receding ego and making it the first thing he mentions, clearly elevating the issue in to the most important ones, right after denouncing cinema as something below him, as he finishes the topic off with “Now, take note: I'm awesome, your not.” He cements the image of him having a low social status at his school (in the real world), and how large his ego is compared with his actual grasp of reality, and how heavily it (The Ego) must have struck the ground as it was toppled.

Clearly he believes he is some sort of superhero, like Spectacle Man, the one who can give you small burns by using the Sun and his Glasses!

Now Mr Barton

The Soviet army had a 3 to 1 numerical advantage to the Polish, and managed to push the Poles all the way to the capital, so clearly they had considerable forces at hand at the time, which they had scrambled over a three year period, especially compared to say…. Germany who stood practically defenceless after its loss of the war.

Now Vilnius had a population with Poles in majority, so the Polish government was acting according to current standards when the peace negotiations after the Great War had not defined its eastern borders, hence the push in to the Ukraine, and other concentrations of Polish people.

Now in 1939, the Germans and the Soviets had a little pact, and basically decided to divide Poland between themselves, The Bolsheviks did this partly because they where still pissed over their loss in 1920, where Stalin himself had failed personally, and did a very good job of executing over twenty thousand Polish officers, policemen and intelligentsia in the most brutal fashion like in Katyn. So you might as well say that the Jews deserved the holocaust for wearing funny haircuts.

Anyway, your feeble attempts have not budged the points in my initial post at all, especially as you haven’t touched the most of them.

First of a, Poland acted entirely out of line by taking things into their own hands. Germany had been more screwed by Versailles than anyone else. Poland only ended up existing because of Wilson's 14 points, but you know, defent ungreatful jackasses to the high hills.

Now if order to explain why I started with "I don't watch..." is because I answer from the bottom of a post to the top, unless its quite long, or boaring me. And yes, I am a superhero, Bartonman, with the ability to lead a new land into the 20th century with large tariffs because I'm overly Xenophobic.

Low social status, *looks around*, you come to this conclusion cause I got boared and came here, in which case that would mean the same to you. If you want to know my reasons, I am currently suffering from a cold and have gone home to my in the country to relax and I need something to occupy myself. The I'm awesome, your not really shows my low social status doesn't it. Or it may just be I am just really awesome. I think it may be you of the low social status due to the way you seem to take on my ego so. Though you may never touch it for I am so supremly awesome. *Smiles to himself and unleashes the monkey whilst listening to real music [Money for Nothing]*

The third person thing, ???. Just how I put it. *I look around* doesn't sound or look right. It just sounds better to me thats all.

Laciaxa, Cheaters are Italy. They won the world cup on Grosso's diving ability. Lucas Neill did nothing wrong, Italy did not win that game, and as for match fixing... The DRC is the Democratic Rebublic of the Congo [Zaire]. So no, kenyas not off, and I listed the current 34 most populous places to show how you can't just put people in by the population.

Barton you are clearly ingorant of other peoples views, I don't believe Poland should be, or Austria, but i don't attack everyone who does, i respect their views

Nice, nice...
Now you have some good points, especially the Austrians are Germans, which is true. Now the point still remains the massive empire under the Austrian and Hapsburgs name, you may not be seeing the wood from the trees here but, I have a real thing about empire over people. I hate the idea of a Native American civilization for that reason, and the celts somewhat annoy me, but I have already given up that rant. Though I am still of the belief that Vienna and Austria do deserve a civ of their own for some of the greatly significant things they had achived and more importantly what the Hapsburgs had done. Though it would be hard in the format of the game to have a Hapsburgs empire. But yes, in allot of Ways Austria was sort of like a more modern Poland, Big empire for a few hundred years then collapse, but they were also an intergral part of the Holy Roman Empire, but it is true they can be under the name of German threre.

Maybe I need to put it down to decide yourselves. I know I think they should be in. Austria was a great and powerful empire that covered allot of Eastern Europe and the Balkans. But the question is down to were they powerful enough for long enough.

In the same way I think Poland should be in a future expansion, but still NOT THIS ONE. I think poland is just under the line at which I would put it in. But you know.

Also Austria is very different to Bavaria now, they have crafted a new identity, remember in under william the conquerer the official language of England was French. Shakespear made nearly half the english language, and english is now essentially a hybrid of Germanic, Romantic & Celtic languages. Things change with time.
Let's add Makedonia...and the Seleukid Empire. And while we're at it, the Ptolemaic Empire too. They're all covered by pre-existing civs in both rulers and subject peoples, but let's add them because they had a lot of land at some point...and hell of a lot more than Austria ever did, at that! Let's not forget the Timurids either. Maybe, in another 500 years, there will be an Austrian identity that is distinct from Germany, but the two were inseperable until about 60 years ago.

Austria fits under the blanket of "German". Had Austria united the disparate German states and left Prussia in the lurch, people would be arguing how Prussia should be included and how it is different from Germany.

With both Portugal and the Dutch in, I've had enough European civilizations. Let's not forget that Asia and even Africa had some pretty impressive civilizations, some of which even are around today, and none of which are debateable as to whether or not they don't already fit under the heading of a pre-existing Civ, and many of them ruled empires that no one in the west learns about because the west is too damned busy gazing at its own reflection in the pond...

Well said Lance!
Sorry, but this ongoing rant about Austria is beginning to annoy me. Firaxis should be looking for new CIVILIZATIONS, not european nation states or empires that existed for a century or so. Austria, for me, is essentially another state that has German culture, or at least culture that is similar to Germany's. It may have ruled an empire, but then I can think of many other empires that have existed and haven't been included in the main game (the Kushan empire and the Parthian empire to name just two).

But the final Civs have already been decided (I'd be rather worried if they weren't) and we can't change what Firaxis has decided upon anyway.

Pokurcz, leave him alone - he needs attention, if we ignore him, he will get back to do his homework ;)
Barton - you have right to have your own opinion, post it here and do not attack people who have different opinion than you do. It's the bottom line I support :) BTW - your historical background need to be improved

I also would like to see more non-Europeans civs, but it's not changing that I still miss Poland in civ4...

Also Barton please stop or leave the topic before this topic becomes a flame war or before people start posting racist comments.

OH and yes Austria should be in before Poland, but Poland has a chance. It was quite insulting to hear that a civ smaller then Nauru should be in before Poland.

First of a, Poland acted entirely out of line by taking things into their own hands. Germany had been more screwed by Versailles than anyone else. Poland only ended up existing because of Wilson's 14 points, but you know, defent ungreatful jackasses to the high hills.

Now if order to explain why I started with "I don't watch..." is because I answer from the bottom of a post to the top, unless its quite long, or boaring me. And yes, I am a superhero, Bartonman, with the ability to lead a new land into the 20th century with large tariffs because I'm overly Xenophobic.

Low social status, *looks around*, you come to this conclusion cause I got boared and came here, in which case that would mean the same to you. If you want to know my reasons, I am currently suffering from a cold and have gone home to my in the country to relax and I need something to occupy myself. The I'm awesome, your not really shows my low social status doesn't it. Or it may just be I am just really awesome. I think it may be you of the low social status due to the way you seem to take on my ego so. Though you may never touch it for I am so supremly awesome. *Smiles to himself and unleashes the monkey whilst listening to real music [Money for Nothing]*

The third person thing, ???. Just how I put it. *I look around* doesn't sound or look right. It just sounds better to me thats all.



I'll just say that God helps those who help themselves, and I mean it in a totally secular way. No one took it in to their hands so Poland did it itself.

You seem to fit the archetype of the typical westerner who can't understand the magnitude of the misdeeds of the Bolsheviks in those days.

Anyway as long as your listening to "real music" I guess your justifying your existence.

Barton..

When I saw your list the words' foot', 'shot himself 'and 'in the' sprang to mind . Though not necessarily in that order.

As for where it differs from the actual and suggested Civ list other than just the ancient names then would I prefer Brazil to the Hittites , absolutely ... Ethiopia to Sumerians , I think so.

Calm down people ,especially Barton . Don't go banging your head. First of all I'm not Polish and have no nationalistic motive for seeing Poland or any other country or civ in the game. I would say however that Eastern Europe as compared to Western Europe lacks representation.

Representation? We aren't discussing parliamentary elections, you know. "Justice" does not come into it. If that were the case. we would need to add several African and Latin American countries. (I agree with those who see a hidden racistic agenda behind this constant baying for more European civilizations.) We are talking about significant civilizations, and Russia is the only country in eastern Europe that can be deemed to possess significance from a global perspective.

I'm from England so I really don't know much about Eastern Europe . If you say there is no civilisation of significance between Berlin and Bryansk I have to believe you.

Poland had great significance in the Middle Ages, as did Austria in the 19th century. Not to mention the Byzantines and the Ottomans. To say that there are, and have been, no significant countries in Eastern Europe is, quite frankly, wrong. I'm from Wales so I have no nationalistic agenda here, don't worry!

I agree with you Kaiser. Either Poland or The Magyars should be in before Firaxis dig up another long forgotten Middle Eastern/ Mediterranean civ who weren't even a household name in their own house.

I agree with you Kaiser. Either Poland or The Magyars should be in before Firaxis dig up another long forgotten Middle Eastern/ Mediterranean civ who weren't even a household name in their own house.
When did they ever do that? The closest thing I can remember would be adding the Hittites in Conquests, and the Hittites are hardly "long forgotten". Maybe not the ideal choice, I'll grant you, but not quite the same as some long-dead, obscure little nation from the arse end of nowhere.
Of course, maybe my view is skewed from having an archaeologist for a mother- "Hittite" really was a household name. ;)

Poland had great significance in the Middle Ages, as did Austria in the 19th century. Not to mention the Byzantines and the Ottomans. To say that there are, and have been, no significant countries in Eastern Europe is, quite frankly, wrong. I'm from Wales so I have no nationalistic agenda here, don't worry!

The Ottomans controlled most of the Balkans at one point, but they were never a "country in Eastern Europe". Their heartland was, and is, Asia Minor, and they controlled wide lands from Egypt through Arabia to the Caucasus and western Iran. As for the Byzantines, they were at least as much an Asian as a Balkan power. Austria or, rather, the Habsburg Empire (which was a major player from considerably earlier than the 19th century), was not specifically an eastern European power. If we are to talk about countries that genuinely are eastern European, then the only one that cuts the mustard as a civilization of global significance is Russia.

Lacaixa: The operative word here is *global* significance.

The Ottomans controlled most of the Balkans at one point, but they were never a "country in Eastern Europe". Their heartland was, and is, Asia Minor, and they controlled wide lands from Egypt through Arabia to the Caucasus and western Iran. As for the Byzantines, they were at least as much an Asian as a Balkan power.
Sounds like you just contradicted yourself- one minute, the Ottomans were not Eastern European because they were not based there, the next the Byzantines were not Eastern European because their power extended beyond that region. How does that work? :rolleyes:

Poland is stuck between Russia and Germany... and so they can't be great. Wait, maybe if I say it again it might just possibly make sense. okay, Poland is stuck between Russia and Germany... and so they can't be great. Nope, not working.

So, let us dismantle your "argument".

You argument starts with an assumtion and then goes onto say that a countries population could qualify it to be in a computer game of Great Civilizations. This population of course is from today, so in other words places like Babylon are no longer in. So by your method the civs in the game are
1. China
2. India
3. USA
4. Indonesia
5. Brazil
6. Pakistan
7. Bangaladesh
8. Nigeria
9. Russia
10. Japan
11. Mexico
12. The Phillipines
13. Vietnam
14. Germany
15. Ethiopia
16. Egypt
17. Turkey
18. Iran
19. France
20. Thailand
21. DRC
22. UK
23. Cheaters
24. Myanmar
25. South Africa
26. South Korea
27. Ukraine
28. Spain
29. Colombia
30. Tanzania
31. Argentina
32. Sudan
33. Poland
34. Kenya

Genius, pure Genius!

Next, their great, however they didn't have the power to compete with those around them and so never became great. Like in AFL, you think they need pity-points for missing the main goal of being awesome. I think Kuwait should be in for being stuck between Iraq and Iran, yeah *smashes head against desk*.

I rate your argument:
*Drum Rolls*
Labor's 2004 election campaign
Congratulations, your a failure, but don't worry you can get a new leader whilst you current one writes a book on how bad a leader he was and then blames it on other people. Of course that leader will be relaced with a Al Gore like figure who everyone one loves dispite the fact he's full of 'Yasmin's getting Married'.

Getting past all this, no poland, shut up. I suggest we get a WINGE thread for you people. If it was down to pure votes, Hitler would still be in power. If you don't think that makes sense, read everyones arguments about Poland being in, they make much less sense.

Hi-five Dutchking, the dutch rock! They're in and all is good in the world. The poles arn't in yet and the balence remains. [The Dutch balence the Native Americans and therfore make the game playable]

Does anyone actually read the content of what I have written or do they skim read it, assume they understand what I'm saying and go on to typing something whilst their brain is in a vegatative state.

The list is just the 34 most populous countries as of 2007. Now forgive me if this is not clear. Also for anyone not familiar with the Fifa 2006 world cup, and Italians in general: 94th minute [3 mins added on] in Kaiserslauten, and all of a sudden Grosso kicks the ball to one side and dives spectaculary over Neill. PENALTY the retarded ref says, Totti converts to give Italy a 1:0 advantage at the 95th minute. So forgive me if I think Australia was robbed by a load of cheaters. ALSO, for Italian fotball fans, you league sucks, you international team as cheated their way to number one, and should probably be shot for it. Also, *cough* match fixing *cough*.

People seem to have some strange belief in the idea that Austria has only been Austria for 60 years. Others seem to state that Austria was somehow not the dominante power of the Holy Roman Empire for a long while and seem to take it as Germany is the Dominant power. Well, lets think here, the Holy Roman Empire was more of a loose association of States bearly controled by a central force, but you know people can;t be expected to understand an Empires inner working before saying what it is. Before Austria became the great power it was during the time before the compromise, it's ruling family, the Hapsburgs had basically been the Emperors of the Holy Roman Empire. It my take a long time for people to get their minds around this, but the Holy Roman Empire was a name, not a power. Everypart of it ruled itself and they where just united by their Religion, and not by a central power. There was no capital, it was not German, it was not Italian, it was not Austria, it was not Bavarian, it was not Bohemian, it was not anything. You people don't register that Austria was a seperate entity back then as well, it's not just a recent occurance. Bavaria, Prussia... all the German States are seperate as well, but they where united by the Franco-Prussian war. Austria united Bohemia, Moravia, Dalmatia... it forged a Great Empire completly separate from the "Germans".

Now, things to remember:
The Holy Roman Emperor governed over the choices of the individual states, but could not directly control them.
The Holy Roman Empire never had a central government
Austria is seperate to Germany
Al Gore is a Jackass
You can just not type, and save me from doing so in return
Austria was a great empire, so was Poland
Europe is awesome, they are not everything and yes I do think Abbyssinia should be in, so should Khmer and Israel
The Native Americans where a bad choice, in alot of ways the Celts were as well, but at least they had some form of Civilization

Also, Europe is dominant because you was the centre of much of the developments in the world over the last 2 millenias, them and the Middle East... and China.

We need to have Austria to balence the map of Europe, Poland as well... Just not yet. REMEMBER MY LIST
1. Israel
2. Austria
3. Khmer
4. Poland
5. Abbyssinia
...
oh who gives a damn, you people can't listen, just like me you all have your own agendas and opions.

Also, screw solcialism. You wanna be commies.

Back to my Awesomeness, and my Awesome music!!!

Traitorfish

The Hittites are an excellent example. Don't get me wrong I'm not eurocentric and would love to see Ethiopa, Maori,Tibet for example . I suspect with such as the Hittites by the time they get to city number 20 they're starting to make stuff up.

Kaiser Mac Cleg:
Well said Lance!
Sorry, but this ongoing rant about Austria is beginning to annoy me. Firaxis should be looking for new CIVILIZATIONS, not european nation states or empires that existed for a century or so. Austria, for me, is essentially another state that has German culture, or at least culture that is similar to Germany's. It may have ruled an empire, but then I can think of many other empires that have existed and haven't been included in the main game (the Kushan empire and the Parthian empire to name just two).

But the final Civs have already been decided (I'd be rather worried if they weren't) and we can't change what Firaxis has decided upon anyway.

Poland had great significance in the Middle Ages, as did Austria in the 19th century. Not to mention the Byzantines and the Ottomans. To say that there are, and have been, no significant countries in Eastern Europe is, quite frankly, wrong. I'm from Wales so I have no nationalistic agenda here, don't worry!

I can understand why a lot of people don't see the importance of Austria - especially when their knowledge only seems to center around the 19th century and lead up to the first world war. (That's not specifically at you - it's just the impression I get from people in general, particularly when Austria-Hungary is requested rather than just Austria)

Just so you know, in the 16th century Austria was, along with Spain, the most powerful European state. It remained a major power in name until the end of the first world war but had lost a considerable amount of its real power during the nineteenth century (which was when the Austrian-Hungarian state was established).

Sounds like you just contradicted yourself- one minute, the Ottomans were not Eastern European because they were not based there, the next the Byzantines were not Eastern European because their power extended beyond that region. How does that work? :rolleyes:

I said the Byzantines were "at least as much an Asian as a Balkan power." Their heartland was in Asia at least as much as in Europe. Furthermore, their capital was as close to Asia as it could be without actually being in Asia. Look at a historical map and you'll see what I mean.

I suppose a (dubious) case could be made for the Byzantines being "Eastern Europeans", but it would be much more apt to simply call them "Mediterranean" or even "Levantine/Middle Eastern". They lost most of their possessions in the Balkans to invading Slavs at a fairly early time, and after that their most important possessions were Asia Minor, Armenia and Greece. (Most of their later Emperors were either from Constantinople, from Asia Minor or from Armenia.) Asia Minor and Armenia lie in Asia, and of course, Greece is often perceived as being "western European". As for calling the Ottomans "Europeans", it simply doesn't work. You could just as well (or better) declare that the Russians are actually Asians since the larger part of Russia is called Siberia and lies in Asia. It still doesn't feel quite right to call Russia "Asian", does it?

Bottom line: All this talk about how "Eastern Europe needs more representation" or "the Romans are western Europeans and so are the Greeks, but not the Byzantines" means that one cleaves to an artificial perception of all countries and cultures as being wholly of one "continent", when the fact is that continents in themselves are largely an artificial concept where the borders have been redrawn at times - as is definitely the case with concepts such as "Western Europe", "Central Europe" and "North Africa". For example, the ancient Greeks regarded Egypt as being part of what they called Asia whereas today it is officially part of Africa but many debaters here seem to accept it as being "part of the Middle East".

Let's get back to discussing civilizations that would be interesting to have in the game (such as the Khmer, the Hittites, Ethiopia or Polynesia) instead of insisting on some kind of quota system which for some mysterious reason favours Europe (as perceived today) out of all proportion.

Sorry, there seems to have been some misunderstanding here. I wasn't trying to say that The Byzantine and Ottoman empires were exclusively eastern European civilizations, although the Byzantine heartland was around the Aegean. The point I was trying to make was that eastern Europe has not been a power vacuum, as it seems you have been saying.

But if you are trying to say that the Byzantine empire wasn't European, I disagree with you. Europe's boundaries are cultural, not geographical, and in the Byzantine period, much Asia Minor was what I would call 'European'. The byzantine empire was made up of many different cultures, but what I am trying to say is that there have been many different influential civs based in and around eastern Europe.

However, I agree, we should get back on topic. Ideally, I'd like to see Poland included, but the other civs you mentioned - the Khmer, Hittites and Ethiopia, I'd like to see in the game before them. As for Polynesia...I wouldn't like to see them included in BtS.

Hungary and Poland are two of biggest nations in Eastern Europe one of them should be added if civ4 makers got bored of middle asian civilization.

Ottomans weren't a Eastern Europan civ our most culture belongs to asia and middle east.

I have a solution. Screw eastern europe, no more balkan civs, no polish civ, just put in Austria so we can have the Byzantine, Roman, Ottoman, Austrian, Russian, Greek ... need I more domination of this area.

Oh, and Totti is a horrible footballer! Harry Kewell would have screw you Italians to the wall if he was not indured!

Have you read any posts? We're agreeing with you Austria has a good chance of getting in, BUT WE'RE SAYING POLAND HAS A CHANCE TO.

And please stop posting offensive stuff like "a nation smaller then Nauru should be in before Poland"

If you known Polish History you would know why Poland has a great chance of getting in. Polish history was great history, Maybe not as great as Austria, But it was still great.

People can't take a joke here. Which is funny cause more people are one.

The idea of representing Eastern Europe with those who dominated it insted of an actual civ for them...

Oh well, no sense of humor and a couple of Chinese fighting fish in there corn flakes in the morning should be a nice mix.

Poland did dominate eastern europe, So did Austria did not. Austria-Hungary did. But they didn't really expand east much. Ottomans did aswell.

But who lives in East europe? SLAVS, Who above is slavic? POLAND.


And many slavs hate to be represented by russia. so they need another civ to represent them. and who better to represent them then Poland?

You know what, shut up!

Austria did dominate eastern europe before the compromise of the 1850's. The compromise was because of the lack of representation of the East. In fact, go look up the compromise, and infact... look it up on wikipedia so you can be just as useless as the rest of these people.

Also for you second question: how about a slavic nation, not poland. Poland ain't slavic, sorry to tell you.

Also for you second question: how about a slavic nation, not poland. Poland ain't slavic, sorry to tell you.

WTF IS WRONG WITH YOU. i take that as one of your idiot posts.

Do you even have a brain?

And there's is no other "good" slavic nation to pick it up after Poland, Only Bulgaria and Yugoslavia have a chance. Yugoslavia is obviously to new to be in, and Bulgaria isn't good enough to be in and has been counquered by the Greeks, Ottomans, Byzantines, Romans, etc.

So we meet again person with 36 in their name. By any chance do you eat carrots?

Poland has been conquered by everyone as well

No, Tectonic Knights, Bolshevic War, Siege of Vienna ring the bell?

World war 2 is only understandable. Your gonna fight both russia and germany with an ill equipped army?

Well Poland did and the stayed longer then France did only against germany. And we never surrendered. France did.

Tectonic knights, with the powers of continental drift!!!

Rofl...

Review your history lessons.

Id also add the Czechs, they had the Great Moravian Empire during the ninth century, and had a great impact on Slavic culture. Unfortunetly that was over a thousand years ago, but that problem is similar to the one of Poland, whilst Poland peaked in the seventeenth century and lost its position as top Slavic country to Russia during that period.

Otherwise I find the Magyars to be a good competitor for an eastern representative, but Poland is definitely the best added representative of Slavs, in the face of over a representation of Germanic tribes in CIV 4, whilst Slavs are more numerous in Europe.

The problem with Slavs is perhaps the image West-Europeans have of all of them using ciryllics, being Orthodox and being an over all homo genus bunch, which is of coarse based on sheer lack of knowledge, and unfortunately, interest on the part of westerners.:(

Russia doesn't count because we're looking for a non russian slavic nation to represent the slavs who let's just say don't like the russians very much.

I know what the Teutonic order was, Tectonic however has to do with continental drift!

Well excuse me for my bad english.

I won't, and that's because I hate everyone

B

Why wont you blow up Mail boxes with firecrackers to vent your rage in stead of being a nuisance here?

Because, this is much cheaper than the firecrackers.

Firecrackers are much cheaper than broadband, unless someone else is paying for you...

No, I was more refering to the import fees. They're illegal here, and to get them past customs would be hard.

Anyway, you should go out for some fresh air, maybe take up roller blading or perhaps boxing, that will rid you of exes energy so you won't have any left for mischief.

I was just out jogging in 30 degrees C, so now I don't feel like being obnoxious at all.

30 degrees is nothing... I've soccer in 40 before. Anyhow, its night time, 12 degrees and raining and I'm sick. Tell me there's something else to do.

well the other post got locked as i was typing in a reply to why we should have austria thread, so i will post it here otherwise i will feel that i have lost 10 minutes of my life

The origins of modern Austria date back to the ninth century, when the countryside of upper and lower Austria became increasingly populated. The name "Ostarrichi" is first documented in an official document from 996. Since then this word has developed into the German word Österreich.


The first Polish state was created in 966, within territory very similar to the present boundaries of Poland. Poland became a kingdom in 1025, and in 1569 it cemented a long association with the Grand Duchy of Lithuania by uniting to form the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.

There you go if you want to argue who was established first then sure add poland before Austria. If you want to argue it by who has remained independant the longest, sure vote Austria.

If you want to measure who should be first by who has the biggest population at present then sure vote Poland as Austria has 8.2 millon citizens and Poland has 35.8 million citizens.

If you want to choose by using GDPthen sure.

Rank Country GDP (PPP) $m
— World 61,258,714
— European Union 13,111,389
1 United States 12,229,276

Thats the top of the list to put it in perspective for you.

Here is poland 24 Poland 524,435

Here is Austria 35 Austria 281,357
List from the lovely International Monetary Fund.

Now lets do it by military spending!
First i will paste the top 10 :D
Rank Country Military expenditures (USD) Date of information
— World Total 1,164,254,167,000
— NATO Total 849,875,309,000
— EU Total 292,745,000,000
1 United States 532,800,000,000 2007
2 United Kingdom[1] 66,100,000,000 2007
3 France 64,611,000,000 2007
4 Germany 57,500,000,000 2007
5 Japan 46,000,000,000 2007 (est.)
6 People's Republic of China[2] 45,500,000,000 2007 (est.)
7 Russia[3] 32,400,000,000 2007
8 Italy 32,093,537,000 2006 (est.)
9 Saudi Arabia 31,255,000,000 2006
10 India 21,330,000,000 2007

Looking at this first i gotta say woooooo look at NATO Spending thats like 70% of the worlds spending all done by NATO!
Then wohooooo American spends more on its military then the entire world combined (nearly)
Then wohooo the united kingdom is 2nd, yay i live there! Then damn Saudi Arabia, and their regime :nuke:
Then wohooo India is 10th, im half indian :D. It better increase as it will have the biggest population in the world by 2050! We gonna get you china ;).
Also woooo Italy! I remember people talking about italy earlier so i will say point out they are on the list!

Now poland has a total military expenditures(SP) of.. wait for it.. 7.2 Billion!
Now Austria has a total military expenditures(SP) of.. wait for it.. 2.3 Billion!

So in summary i have only really analyised the present, and most people should know that Austria use to be an influential country, and poland was conquered lots, as Germany and Russian GPS always leads them to Poland :lol: :lol: :lol: , so if you measure it by pre-poland becoming free of communisum then i think Austria was greater, if you measure by post-poland becoming free of communisum then i think poland is better. In the end though all i did was post stuff, so that you can quote me and argue, so i can laugh evilily as whilist you debate on whether or not poland or austria should be in the game, Israel has a higher military expenditure budget then both of you :eek: :eek: :eek:

Let's not add a poll to this because to many Polish people are on this thread. :lol: But people, seriously if there were a poll I'd vote Austria over Poland any day of the week.

I haven't read the whole thing, only the first bits and last bits.

But I would say if you wanted to add Austria as a playable civ, then you should just add the holly roman empire: an abvious major player in medievil world.

As for Poland ... well they were pretty much stuck in a crossfire between Asia and Europe for the largest part of their hostory. They were a thorn for the early Rus, but seazed to be so eventually. But in any case Poland was never a major player in history.

But in any case Poland was never a major player in history.

Neither were the Celts, Vikings, Native Americans etc.

And i would vote for Austria over Poland. I'm just saying Poland has a chance to.

You might guess from my name that I'd vote Austria.

Surely two points start to move me into the direction of Poland, though:

- there's been someone running riot on these forums recently, proclaiming his support for Austria, which, I'd think, didn't help the Austrian cause a lot,
- and: my wife is Polish, so I'd better hide my feelings... ;)

Can we have both, please?

not likely to happen. 3 slots left, many fans will go crazy if theres 2 more european civs to.

You might guess from my name that I'd vote Austria.

Surely two points start to move me into the direction of Poland, though:

- there's been someone running riot on these forums recently, proclaiming his support for Austria, which, I'd think, didn't help the Austrian cause a lot,
- and: my wife is Polish, so I'd better hide my feelings... ;)

Can we have both, please?

Well, a whole bunch of people have been running riot for months baying for the inclusion of Poland, which probably didn't help *their* cause much. I'm against including either Austria and Poland because there are so many European civs already. Including more would not be enjoyable, except to those who are driven by chauvinist feelings.

Yes, you know how it feels like when you say, What if Poland is included and someone says "oh the polish idiots are represented by Russia and especially Germany, and there good for nothing other then sausages and being invaded"

Because that's the typical answer from any member of this forum.

Yes, you know how it feels like when you say, What if Poland is included and someone says "oh the polish idiots are represented by Russia and especially Germany, and there good for nothing other then sausages and being invaded"

Because that's the typical answer from any member of this forum.
The Germans are good for sausages, not the Poles! :lol: ;) Anyway, don't be so sensitive to what people say. If you're on a PC you can make your own Poland Civilization just how you like it. I'm on a mac, so that doesn't count for me. But you don't have to wait for Firaxis to get their **** together...:goodjob:

[...]

If you want to choose by using GDPthen sure.

Rank Country GDP (PPP) $m
— World 61,258,714
— European Union 13,111,389
1 United States 12,229,276

Thats the top of the list to put it in perspective for you.

Here is poland 24 Poland 524,435

Here is Austria 35 Austria 281,357
List from the lovely International Monetary Fund.

Now lets do it by military spending!
First i will paste the top 10 :D
Rank Country Military expenditures (USD) Date of information
— World Total 1,164,254,167,000
— NATO Total 849,875,309,000
— EU Total 292,745,000,000
1 United States 532,800,000,000 2007
2 United Kingdom[1] 66,100,000,000 2007
3 France 64,611,000,000 2007
4 Germany 57,500,000,000 2007
5 Japan 46,000,000,000 2007 (est.)
6 People's Republic of China[2] 45,500,000,000 2007 (est.)
7 Russia[3] 32,400,000,000 2007
8 Italy 32,093,537,000 2006 (est.)
9 Saudi Arabia 31,255,000,000 2006
10 India 21,330,000,000 2007

Looking at this first i gotta say woooooo look at NATO Spending thats like 70% of the worlds spending all done by NATO!
Then wohooooo American spends more on its military then the entire world combined (nearly)
Then wohooo the united kingdom is 2nd, yay i live there! Then damn Saudi Arabia, and their regime :nuke:
Then wohooo India is 10th, im half indian :D. It better increase as it will have the biggest population in the world by 2050! We gonna get you china ;).
Also woooo Italy! I remember people talking about italy earlier so i will say point out they are on the list!

Now poland has a total military expenditures(SP) of.. wait for it.. 7.2 Billion!
Now Austria has a total military expenditures(SP) of.. wait for it.. 2.3 Billion!

[...]




wow
thats a very interesting post!
source?

The Germans are good for sausages, not the Poles! :lol: ;) Anyway, don't be so sensitive to what people say. If you're on a PC you can make your own Poland Civilization just how you like it. I'm on a mac, so that doesn't count for me. But you don't have to wait for Firaxis to get their **** together...:goodjob:

For your information Polish sausage is excellent and world renowned (at least in the USA) including "sauerkraut" and beer, and Poles also have vodka, Pierogi and Barscz, So clearly the developers of CIV have made a huge mistake here as it is evident that Poland quite sufficiently represents both Germany and Russia and should have been picked instead of them from the beginning, automatically freeing an extra slot for a non European civ.

Ha!:D

At least some humor in this thread :D
I will live to have all the civs people want in Civilization...
About Austria-Poland thing:
plus for Austria: they were almost included in civ3, so they were seriously considered
plus for Poland: there is WW2 scenario in Civ4:BtS which begins in 1936, so for sure Poland will exists in this scenario. We don't know if it will be a playable civ and if it will be included in epic game - I hope yes, I think "no".

I'm really curious who will make it, it's very possible that both those civs will not be included - there is at least few very interesting ancient civs to be added. Sid said once that he likes the historical background of civ - but Sid is not deciding which civ to include to Civ4:BtS (I think so).

@Archduke Otto - great choice! Polish women always were and still are our best export "product" :D they're great, I know as my wife is as well Polish (nothing strange here in Poland though :D).

Poland should definitely be included.
And as a bonus you would get a new diplomatic option/minigame
- "Let's partition Poland!" (please, don't take this seriously, I really miss Central Europe nations in the game)

wow
thats a very interesting post!
source?
Wikipedia, and CIA world fact book.

For your information Polish sausage is excellent and world renowned (at least in the USA) including "sauerkraut" and beer, and Poles also have vodka, Pierogi and Barscz, So clearly the developers of CIV have made a huge mistake here as it is evident that Poland quite sufficiently represents both Germany and Russia and should have been picked instead of them from the beginning, automatically freeing an extra slot for a non European civ.

Ha!:D

What about the "Schnitzel" (I can't speak German I don't know how to spell it)? :lol: Also, I live in the USA and I've never heard of a Polish Sausage.

Well, a whole bunch of people have been running riot for months baying for the inclusion of Poland, which probably didn't help *their* cause much. I'm against including either Austria and Poland because there are so many European civs already. Including more would not be enjoyable, except to those who are driven by chauvinist feelings.
QFT
There are too many European nation-states as it is, we don't need more.

Is it just me, or are people taking this too seriously? It almost seems like some people genuinely believe that the inclusion of Poland/Austria will be decided by who "wins" this thread. We all know that Poland isn't in the game, and Austria probably is, so why get so wound up about it?

What about the "Schnitzel" (I can't speak German I don't know how to spell it)? :lol: Also, I live in the USA and I've never heard of a Polish Sausage.

Schnitzel is correct, although it's achetypically Austrian ;) a classic original Wiener Schnitzel I once got served in Vienna ranks probably on the top of the "meals I have ever eaten"-like list ;).

btw. "American Dad" had a beautiful reference on the German Bratwurst, Polish sausage thing ;) (I remember it so clearly as it was in the trailer). Beautiful, grandious tv-series. Really ;)

Schnitzel is correct, although it's achetypically Austrian ;) a classic original Wiener Schnitzel I once got served in Vienna ranks probably on the top of the "meals I have ever eaten"-like list ;).

btw. "American Dad" had a beautiful reference on the German Bratwurst, Polish sausage thing ;) (I remember it so clearly as it was in the trailer). Beautiful, grandious tv-series. Really ;)

Wow, you get your information from FOX tv shows? Even FOX news...wow...thats pathetic. :rolleyes: Hehe...atleast you agree with me...I think...

I'm Swiss, I don't receive Fox over here. It was just a reference to popular culture. Please tell me where I wrote something of FOX News in this post. I really can't see anything that would lead me to respond the way you did. I just stated something of German (as in German language&culture area) cooking culture that you didn't know (not really astonishing as you are not from here) and then went on to state something vaguely related to the topic and something you might know as an American just because it was per chance floating around my mind. Please tell me where in this statement I displayed a conservative stance on anything, not that this would be pathetic.

m

PS: btw. American Dad is a satirical tv-show, not a news source. It's entertainment and nothing more.

Yeah! American Dad originated on FOX. They have such stupid tv shows...

Fine i agree with you, but the problem is how are you going to represent East Europe with Romania or Austria or even Hungary when the Vast Vast VAST majority is Slavs? And Russia isn't enough.

Well, I'm afraid you have a wrong image. Without Russia, there are 120-122 million Slavs in Eastern Europe. And 85,000,000 non-Slavs. This means around 41% of the population is not slavic... that's not such a vast majority, it's barely a majority. And this is without counting Turks from Bulgaria, Romanians from Ukraine and Hungarians from Croatia.

Also, I live in the USA and I've never heard of a Polish Sausage.

Maybe you have heard the word "kielbasa", you have if you live in NY, or if you have at least seen the movie about Howard Stern, when there is a woman in the studio who, just as some tourists look in to the studio, shoves a one foot sausage down her throat; a sausage referred to as a "kielbasa".

Now compare these two pics:

http://www.time.com/time/photogallery/0,29307,1626519_1373724,00.html
http://www.time.com/time/photogallery/0,29307,1626519_1373764,00.html

Notice that on the pick with the Poles there is a huge pile of sausages approximately in the center, whilst there are no sausages on the picture of the Germans...

I live near NY and I've never heard "kielbasa", whatever. The Germans look pissed :lol:.
This one doesn't look as filling:
UGH (http://www.time.com/time/photogallery/0,29307,1626519_1373680,00.html)
I feel bad for them.

I live near NY and I've never heard "kielbasa", whatever. The Germans look pissed :lol:.
This one doesn't look as filling:
UGH (http://www.time.com/time/photogallery/0,29307,1626519_1373680,00.html)
I feel bad for them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kielbasa

Well at least those people on that picture are getting a lot of fiber, vitamins and minerals, that a pan pizza lacks.;)

Strange, I live in Berlin (less than 100km from Poland), and the only kielbasa I've ever heard about is a professor in a nearby university, who happen to have this word as a family name.

I think it's a marketing issue. I've never seen Polish sausages advertised. The interesting thing is that you can get hungarian salami (originally italian sausage, but hungarian variation thereof) in every bigger store (and it's quite expensive too).

Hmmm ... now *that* would be a nice way to make your country and its culture better known. Send out care parcels with selected Polish food to those poor people like me who haven't yet heard about it. :)

QFT
There are too many European nation-states as it is, we don't need more.

Is it just me, or are people taking this too seriously? It almost seems like some people genuinely believe that the inclusion of Poland/Austria will be decided by who "wins" this thread. We all know that Poland isn't in the game, and Austria probably is, so why get so wound up about it?

Hey, what indication is there that Austria will be included?

P. S. What does QFT mean?

P. P. S. I love wienerschnitzel.

I am not positive. But I thing QFT means

Quit Fudging Talking

That is if you replace Fudge with a word that rhymes with Duck. :)