Please, don't you see that the map is exactly contradicting your claim?

The map places western Germany in western Europe, and eastern Germany in eastern Europe. Having parts in both hemispheres is about as central as you can get, isn't it?

Come on, your arguments were better before you heard of the inclusion of the HRE. Please calm down.

1st of all i thought my arguments were always bad. :lol:

and yes i know it has germany there. But i atleast corrected most of his mistakes with "dutch being half central half western" Italy and greece in central europe.

I think after 6 years of Nazi destruction and 45 years of Communism very few countries would be 'impressive'.

Russia still is, no matter how one feels about it.

Russia has vast natural resources which will keep her at the top table.

basically i think the whole "xxx civ deserves to be included" thing is simple.
we got "core" civs, without whom a civ game is just unthinkable (greece, rome, usa, russia, india, china, japan, uk, germany)- that is represented moreless in CIV1, then second league (france, spain, vikings, native americans, afirca) - introduced in (with some exceptions both ways) CIV2 and later.

now countries like Poland are only slightly worse choice than portugal, netherlands etc. so as long as we already had a chance to play the latter it'd be nice to see Poland.. or Austria..

I think France deserves to be in the first league.

Who would have though englishman would say so;)

Hey, sorry guys, though I didn't want to see Poland included, I'm sorry you were pipped by a second German civ. Maybe in the next expansion two or three Polish civs will get added to the main game to make them equal to the Germans and Romans; the developers are apparently capable of anything. :P

The Germans have clearly infiltrated the game developers nest.:eek:

Wait isnt there a WWII scenario? If so you can simily copy edit and paste the xml files into the main game directory for xml files and play as poland? (Yes i know i made it sound soo much more simpilar then it is)
Give slap on a unique unit and building that is fitting, and use the leaderhead you get in the WWII scenario, and bang! you have poland :)

yah a bad version. I truly think that the polish mod made by martinis is better then what fireaxis can do. < i'm obviously wrong though. :rolleyes:

But they probably won't have a proper leaderhead for Poland- they'll either use a non-moving flag image (such as with the Chinese Unification scenario) or just use an existing leaderhead with a different name.

Oh, well, they could always skip the invasion of Poland and start at the time of the Fall of France, after all after Poland fell there was a period called the Phoney War where both sides seemed to do very little. It wouldn't exactly be totally wrong to skip Poland and start at the Fall Of France would it?

I'd actually prefer the scenario to start before Poland was even invaded- maybe around 1936- so you have the chance to effect the run up to war, aswell as the war itself. Which, considering the scenario is called "Road to War" could be a possibility. Invade Germany early to take it out as a threat, and then force vassalised Germany to help you invade Russia. ;)

I'd actually prefer the scenario to start before Poland was even invaded- maybe around 1936- so you have the chance to effect the run up to war, aswell as the war itself. Which, considering the scenario is called "Road to War" could be a possibility. Invade Germany early to take it out as a threat, and then force vassalised Germany to help you invade Russia. ;)

THAT WOULD BE SO SWEET!

Let's not stop there, Let's invade Austria to!

THAT WOULD BE SO SWEET!

Let's not stop there, Let's invade Austria to!

Then to America! BOW DOWN ROSEY, BOW DOWN!

Then to America! BOW DOWN ROSEY, BOW DOWN!

Yes we shall reduce America to colonies again mwuhahahaha :D!
British Imperialisum all the way!

Think it was said that the road to war starts in 1937!

Yes we shall reduce America to colonies again mwuhahahaha :D!
British Imperialisum all the way!

Myself being part British, I have to say it is quite funny that a British man spelled Imperialism wrong. I just had to say that, no offense or anything, seriously man I'm actually laughing! :lol:

Think it was said that the road to war starts in 1937!
Damn, so no hope for the Stressa Front holding together.

Not necessarily; the Pact of Steel was only signed in 1939.

Yes we shall reduce America to colonies again mwuhahahaha :D!
British Imperialisum all the way!



May the worlds greatest accent conquer all!

Srsly, I need to find a British girl. I love the accent.

Soooo off topic >.<

I was postponing sending of my petition to Firaxis to be sure if Poland is in... now it's almost sure that there is no Poland, so I'll be posting it soon. Anyone who's interested, sign it now - I will print it within few days (when only there will be officially confirmed list of new civs) and send it to Firaxis

Myself being part British, I have to say it is quite funny that a British man spelled Imperialism wrong. I just had to say that, no offense or anything, seriously man I'm actually laughing! :lol:

I blame bacardi and lack of sleep :mischief:

Wouldn't it have been better to send the petition while they were still in the decision making process to add pressure . Probably too late now for this expansion pack.

I was postponing sending of my petition to Firaxis to be sure if Poland is in... now it's almost sure that there is no Poland, so I'll be posting it soon. Anyone who's interested, sign it now - I will print it within few days (when only there will be officially confirmed list of new civs) and send it to Firaxis

I opposed Poland being in, but now it seems like dreamland compared with a second Germany civ. I'd sign it if I knew it could only get in wearing the dead man's shoes of medieval/early modern Germany (sorry, Holy Roman Empire).

...they probably got a brand new BMW M6 each for the trouble, and all the Knackwurst they can eat...

I was postponing sending of my petition to Firaxis to be sure if Poland is in... now it's almost sure that there is no Poland, so I'll be posting it soon. Anyone who's interested, sign it now - I will print it within few days (when only there will be officially confirmed list of new civs) and send it to Firaxis

Honestly, LDeska... it might help if 90% of the people who signed the petition weren't Polish. :D

Honestly, LDeska... it might help if 90% of the people who signed the petition weren't Polish. :D

lol QFT.

But i agree with that fact that Poland was probably overlooked by the biased and stereotypical attitude most people have here about Poland.

^ "Oh Poland died in WWII"

Seriously these are completely ignorant posts that people make.

Not to mention all the Polish jokes going around...

I like Polish jokes. There are funny, especially like every nation has it's own jokes about other nation whiach are very similar to others. So one time is is about Polish, next about German or Russian :lol:

The one of the best is respond to one of the german joke:
- "Come co Poland, your car is there already "

respond:

-"Come to Germany, jewellery of your grandma is there already" :lol:
and similar ones like, "how many people are needed to change a bulb?"
I heard at least 5 different versions of this. The best was about psychiatrists but I cannot remind it right now.

btw, any new polish jokes?

There is plenty of foreginers who signed our petition, you check it - link is in my sig.
I think that it is good time to send this petition now, becuase they will probably start now preparations for third add-on or civ5, in each case it's the best time.
About jokes - of course each country has such jokes about it's neighbours. In Poland most of jokes are about Germans and Russians, there is no jokes about other neighbours (Lithuania, Slovakia, Czech Rep.) - strange... but true :)
There is really plenty of jokes like 'Pole, German and Russian are doing something..' and then various things happens. I don't have to add that Pole is the smartest and those two other generally get screwed ;) :D
I will not post such jokes as I don't want to offend anyone (most people do not get offended, but still there are some people ho are touchy and that's why I will not post any joke about the beauty of German girls and wisdom of Russian boys ;) )

Well, good luck with your petition, I have added my name, and I am not Polish (from UK). :)

I think it is one month too late now.

There is plenty of foreginers who signed our petition, you check it - link is in my sig.
I think that it is good time to send this petition now, becuase they will probably start now preparations for third add-on or civ5, in each case it's the best time.
About jokes - of course each country has such jokes about it's neighbours. In Poland most of jokes are about Germans and Russians, there is no jokes about other neighbours (Lithuania, Slovakia, Czech Rep.) - strange... but true :)
There is really plenty of jokes like 'Pole, German and Russian are doing something..' and then various things happens. I don't have to add that Pole is the smartest and those two other generally get screwed ;) :D
I will not post such jokes as I don't want to offend anyone (most people do not get offended, but still there are some people ho are touchy and that's why I will not post any joke about the beauty of German girls and wisdom of Russian boys ;) )

They have the same jokes about Germans and Russians in Sweden, but the smart guy is always called a "Bellman" who was a famous poet in the eighteenth century, here in Sweden, and wrote a lot of poems and songs about drinking wine.

and out of the three, our Vodka is the best :)

Well atleast i think so ;)

I hope in Civ 5 they actually consider the idea of Poland.

In Soviet Russia, Polish joke invades YOU!!

I honestly can't believe this thread is STILL going. Poland is not going to be in civ, it's not even what you would CALL a civ. It's a stupid idea based only on some kind of blind nationalism and not even worth any sort of debate let alone 27 pages.

I honestly can't believe this thread is STILL going. Poland is not going to be in civ, it's not even what you would CALL a civ. It's a stupid idea based only on some kind of blind nationalism and not even worth any sort of debate let alone 27 pages.

Be nice.

Anyway, it appears that Poland will definantly not be in Civ 4 Beyond the Sword.
To be honest, I would rather have other civs in, but Poland is possible in a third expansion PLEASE

Poland would make a third expansion but is unlikely to make Civ 5 since this would probably default back to the bread and butter civs again like England, Rome,Greece,France etc.

It looks like Poland didn't make it...

The IGN article says the final civs are the HRE, Ethiopia, and Khmer. All good choices, although I disagree with the HRE myself. I'll be renaming it Austria once I get the game... :)

I honestly can't believe this thread is STILL going. Poland is not going to be in civ, it's not even what you would CALL a civ. It's a stupid idea based only on some kind of blind nationalism and not even worth any sort of debate let alone 27 pages.

Read the post for crying out loud and see, many people aren't Polish... Read the historical facts and please reconsider.

Let's add Canada, too.

So HRE is in and Eastern Europe is still represented by Russia only... great news.

They most frustrating was Alex's answer to TheLastOne36 question during chat. Will there be any new Eastern European civ in BtS?
Alex: does HRE counts as Eastern Europe?

Disgusting... at least he haven't asked if Portugal or Netherlands counts as Eastern Europe :D

I won't buy BtS, it's just the waste of money. I'd rather won't play Civ5 either. It's quite frustrating - permanent speculations. And despite the great work of Polish moders still nothing. I'd rather pretend that there never was a game called "Civilization". I signed a petition and I won't kneel down again. Puting Stalin into Civilization was enough, but I was stupid already. For those who do not know - Stalin murdered several tousands of Polish officers in Katyn and Boris Jelcyn announced this fact in 1996, I guess. Stalin murdered also many Poles in his work camps (direct way of killing people). Many of them had to travel thousands of km's in horrible conditions. He was a war criminal (murdered people during war) and none of them deserves a place in a game. And writing that Stalin was a controversial person (quote from Civilopedia) is terryfing. [it's a divine intervention that not even once Stalin appeared in my games]. There are many mysteries about our country, perhaps that's why you do not know it very well. For those who wish enlarge their knowledge, read Norman Davies "God's Playground". No more word from me on this forum ... and try not to be catched by tendentional books - try catch objective ones. Time to play some other game. Farewell.

You know, what civs are in the game actually isn't as important as the game itself. But whatever man, it's your choice and saving money is a good thing so I really don't care.

It is sad that Poland is once again missed. Of course its it is fine that Holy Roman Emipre is now represented, so many citizens/players from this country demanded it.

Also i want to say thank you to all the people who have supported this topic and the Petition. Your help and generosity is much appreciated.

Also i want to say thank you to all the people who have supported this topic and the Petition. Your help and generosity is much appreciated.

You're welcome...I'm glad with the civ choices, except Khmer and Ethiopia. HRE, they had the assets so....:goodjob:

I'm having the feeling that fireaxis wanted to make HRE as OP and fun as possible to reduce complaints.

Eh, I know I'll be modding the game so the Holy Roman Empire is Poland instead. Charlamagne is a dead ringer for Casimir III
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/a/a4/Charlemagne-by-Durer.jpg/250px-Charlemagne-by-Durer.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/40/CasimirtheGreat.jpg/250px-CasimirtheGreat.jpg

I'm having the feeling that fireaxis wanted to make HRE as OP and fun as possible to reduce complaints.

Aren't there 11 new civs now? Cause the HRE?

Yes but i'd rather have Sobieski that's my prob.

Dutch, can u explain more clearly?

Yeah, I wish I knew how to mod LHs, so I could have Józef Piłsudski in as well. It should be easy to make him out of Bismark.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/a/a4/Charlemagne-by-Durer.jpg/250px-Charlemagne-by-Durer.jpg


HOLY HAND GRENADE!

HOLY HAND GRENADE!

QFT.

Seriously i didn't know they had grenades back then.

Yes but i'd rather have Sobieski that's my prob.

Dutch, can u explain more clearly?

there are these civs, right?:
Babylon
Khmer
Ethiopia
HRE
Netherlands
Portugal
Sumeria
Byzantine
Mayan
Native American
woops, nevermind, i thought there was another one.

QFT.

Seriously i didn't know they had grenades back then.

well ofcourse they did, they were first made in Antoich and blessed by the Pope before being shipped away in 'Jumbo' Fed Ex packages.

many a mule died delivering them.

ROFL.

Good thing Camel's can't light lighters :)

Or can they? ;)

If the petition was hosted by a site that didn't demand so much personal information to sign it like zipcode I would glady sign it. :)

A petition (Poll) on CFC might even carry more weight, since you're getting more direct Civ traffic.

You could sign a giant one in front of the place where the firaxis people hang out...like a starbucks or something...IDK...that petition isn't really getting anywhere...:dunno:

It's supposed to be for Civ 5. It's a possibility.

@NYHunter - you don't have to put your ZIP code, it's optional.

About petition - we are about to send it, we think that it's the best time to do it, because I think that Firaxis will start now preparations for third add-on or civ5.

We have one great idea, but it's too soon to post it here, if this idea will work, I will surely post it here... :)

People you are seriously obsessed. Do Polish people have such a strong inferiority complex that they need to go around signing petitions to be actualy included in a "GAME"? I think your efforts would be better spent creating a small, high quality mod to include a Polish civ. But going around starting thread after thread about how it is Poland that has to be in the game is just plain sad.

People you are seriously obsessed. Do Polish people have such a strong inferiority complex that they need to go around signing petitions to be actualy included in a "GAME"? I think your efforts would be better spent creating a small, high quality mod to include a Polish civ. But going around starting thread after thread about how it is Poland that has to be in the game is just plain sad.

You are wrong ! Poland is a huge country, a country full of history!!! The thing is they include some small, not so important countries where almost nobody plays civ game. This is sad !

You are wrong ! Poland is a huge country, a country full of history!!! The thing is they include some small, not so important countries where almost nobody plays civ game. This is sad !

I'm crying on the inside, I can assure you.

You are wrong ! Poland is a huge country, a country full of history!!! The thing is they include some small, not so important countries where almost nobody plays civ game. This is sad !

Great so let me get this straight. The importance of the country depends solely on whether or not it is included in Civ IV..... Damn.... I'm gonna go write the report for the UN so that everyone sees the light.

Look I'm not saying that Poland is not important, what I'm saying is that you guys are over-reacting. And seeing how many threads were started on the boards about this topic, the only feeling I get for some reason is that you people are desperate to be included, in a game of all thing.

You are wrong ! Poland is a huge country, a country full of history!!! The thing is they include some small, not so important countries where almost nobody plays civ game. This is sad !

Poland needs to be included in the game so poor Poles everywhere can feel they are just as important or better than people like the Celts, Inca, Mali, or Ethiopia?

Look I'm not saying that Poland is not important, what I'm saying is that you guys are over-reacting. And seeing how many threads were started on the boards about this topic, the only feeling I get for some reason is that you people are desperate to be included, in a game of all thing.

Not in a game, but in the CIVILIZATION IV. Since the 1992 we have never been included in a civ game. Because there are so many fans in Poland, we deserve to be given some attention and have this possibility to play our own country. This is what I mean. I guess that it is a great suprise to any Polishman that out of all these civs that have been added, there is no Poland. This is unbeliveable ! - it's like having no Germany in the game.,the more so that so many intersting things/scenario can be made with the inclusion of Poland.

maybe Poland isn't that important after all. In fact the more posts in this thread, the more I'm happy their aren't included.

Poland needs to be included in the game so poor Poles everywhere can feel they are just as important or better than people like the Celts, Inca, Mali, or Ethiopia?

Not important than anyone, but have the possibility to play my own civ ! I am not saying I do not want Celts, Inca etc. I want one more civ, which is Poland !

Poland needs to be included in the game so poor Poles everywhere can feel they are just as important or better than people like the Celts, Inca, Mali, or Ethiopia?
Just think of how proud the Germans feel! Would you deny that feeling from the Poles?:rolleyes: Actually, I would....Poland doesn't deserve two Civs. No one does.

In any case, I'd love much broader representation. Bombard me with Polish history, I want to mod in stuff that should've been in, and, no offense to Poland, but the HRE set that bar very, very low. So Poland clears it with no trouble, even when drunk and overfull on sausages:goodjob:

:satan: Inlude USSR in the game, that'll make Polish happy.....ok, I'm gonna go hide somewhere now :sarcasm:

Just think of how proud the Germans feel!
Do they?

(10Chars)

I don't think you Polish are really serious about having a polish civ. But, if you are you're going to have to take this campaign to the next step. Hunger strikes, assisinations, suicide bombings and just making general nuisance of yourselves. Show the world that the MIGHTY POLAND IS NOT TO BE TRIFLED WITH!!!

hahahaha 'FOR POLAND!!! AIIIIEEEEEE!!!'

Thats good to know. I'll try again. :)

The moment it's decided to create a duplicate of an existing Civ, lump together tribes as a Civ, and include remote nomads as a third Civ -- but disclude a nation that's been around as long as most of europe and whom represents a peoples who have limited/no representation compared to others with tri-fold representation.... they should be in the game.

Hah, you contradikted your self, i think you mean 'should not' be included.

Hah, you contradikted your self, i think you mean 'should not' be included.It's rather obvious that by "they" he meant Poland ...

You know, I don't want to heat up this debate, but I'm really having great fun while reading all those 'Polish' threads :) the fact is that it was me who started the first Polish thread (about petition) but the response from my countrymen is really huge :) anyway - there is 40mln of us in Poland only, not counting emigration (which we call Polonia), so I shouldn't be surpised.

Ii is sad that Firaxis haven't included us, and I will not agree that its 'just a game' - it is THE GAME - the only game I play from civ1 till today, the best game ever created and that's why it is important to me to play using Polish civ. I want to crush my opponents using husaria leaded by John III Sobieski.

http://husaria1.webpark.pl/gfx/husarz3d.jpg

I honestly can't see any good reason for Poland to be included. Just because they've been around so long? Because they've been involved in lots of European wars? Because some of the Poles have contributed to civilization?

In other words, there are many others who have done these things also... like the Hittites, Austria, and Israel, to name a few. They are ahead of Poland in the queue.

wait now, Lets not go too far...

omg..
Firaxis does not chose civs based on a fanbase.
America was included because it was a superpower and Firaxis' home.
The sun never set on the English empire.
Aztec/Maya/Inca were all included because of mathematic and scientific discoveries, etc.
Japan had a rich history as well as a large influence.
China and Korea had long empires and culture.
Mali had so much gold...
Zulu - eh.... I dont know much about them
France, Germany, Spain, Netherlands, and Portugal were included because of their colonies and conquests.
Rome, Byzantium and Greece were in because they had flourishing empires rich in culture.
Carthage was a rival of the romans.
Mongols had large conquests.
Russia also had a rich history.
The Khmer, Ethiopians and HRE I dont know much about sorry.
Celts held much of the British Isles.
Sumeria was the first true civilization.
Babylon controlled most of Mesopotamia.
India also had a large empire and rich culture.
Persia controlled east-central asia.
Arabians controlled... the Arabian peninsula.
Egypt has a very rich culture and history.
The vikings were also very ancient.

Poland just didn't have as much of a worldwide impact.
A civ should not be put into Civ 4 because lots of fans are from it.

PS - Im no history major, so if any of this data is factually incorrect please correct me.
Don't argue arbitarary things such as how "rich" a culture was. It's really a matter of opinion. Look at art, architechture, music, theatre, etc. for culture.

Poland stopped Austria from converting to Islam ;)

Germany wasn't a colonial power, it was the major power in Europe.

Actually in it's few years between WW1 and it's Unification it was a major Colonial Power.

In 1920 Poland stopped the Bolsheviks from bringing the revolution to Germany and the rest of Europe.

If that is not enough of a "worldwide impact" then I do not know what is.

And that is not the only thing. We kept the Ottomans, Huns aswell as the Russians.

Also we had to deal with Austria, Germany, and Russia throughout history, Sometimes all at ounce and Poland is still a nation.

And even though Slovakia, Germany and Russia Attacked us in world war 2, We fought them longer then the france just did to germany. <and we never surrendered. France did.

So what do you think now?

The number of wars that they fought is just not a factor. It dosent make a worldwide impact. If the Polish had not fended off the foes assailing Europe, other European powers would have destroyed the enemies. There's just larger, more prominent civs that were put in BTS. I'd be happy if they put Poland in a third expansion (I Hope) or Civ V, but really the choices Firaxis made (I feel) were right. I believe that the 34 other civs were better choices (Except HRE ) Maybe Poland will become the 35th civ to be featured in Civ 4. Or the 37th-so civ to be featured in the Civ Series. I'd be cool with that, but I would prefer the Dutch or Byzantines or Khmer.

Waffles

EDIT horrible typo

Don't get us wrong, All of us think Dutch, Portugal are better choices.

All of us would also agree that a SE asian civ is also in before Poland. (some of us prefare Nam or Siam before Khmer)

Actually in it's few years between WW1 and it's Unification it was a major Colonial Power.
I think that depends very much on one's definition of "major".

Germany simply came too late for the colonial speed-race of century before, so they tried to hastily grab anything which wasn't already taken. Of course, that late in the process, all "good" places were already occupied and there wasn't much of a free world left to be conquered. Hence Germany ended up with a few strips of land here and there that the other colonial powers hadn't found worth colonizing yet.

I mean, honestly, who else but a desperately colony-hungry latecomer would have tried to colonize New Guinea?

Germany certainly became a *minor* colonial power at that time, but when you consider it major, I wonder what a minor colonising power would be. :)

I think that you guys have a minority complex. I voted for you in all the Polish threads, as I think Poland deserves a place in civ4, much more so than HRE, Korea or even Celts for that matter. But the reasons you use to prove your point are often so bizarre and unjustified that it makes you look quite desperate and at times pathetic, no offence.
Next you'll be telling us how Poland saved the Earth from an alien invasion...

Next you'll be telling us how Poland saved the Earth from an alien invasion...

Oh we did, 3 times infact. :mischief:

And well a say a minor colonizing power is actually Poland-Lithuania. I'd consider that Minor. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Courland_colonization_of_the_Americas

I think that you guys have a minority complex. I voted for you in all the Polish threads, as I think Poland deserves a place in civ4, much more so than HRE, Korea or even Celts for that matter. But the reasons you use to prove your point are often so bizarre and unjustified that it makes you look quite desperate and at times pathetic, no offence.
Next you'll be telling us how Poland saved the Earth from an alien invasion...


Just because you haven't heard about it does not mean it it does not exist.

Here is some reading:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish-Soviet_War

In 1920 Poland stopped the Bolsheviks from bringing the revolution to Germany and the rest of Europe.

If that is not enough of a "worldwide impact" then I do not know what is.

Well, someone might argue that if the Bolsheviks had entered Germany (I doubt they could've gone any further), Hitler might not have gained power... World War II might not have started... by the transitive property, Poland therefore caused World War II.

Interesting logic. :crazyeye: :D

Oh we did, 3 times infact. :mischief:

Nice response :) Respect.

Just because you haven't heard about it does not mean it it does not exist.

Here is some reading:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish-Soviet_War

Who said I haven't heard of it? It's just that there are many ways of saying things. You could present an objective point of view or you could just say "Poland saved the world from communism"!!!

I mean Finland won a war against the Soviet Union so why don't you say that they saved Sweden and Norway or hack even the world from communism.

Nice response :) Respect.



Who said I haven't heard of it? It's just that there are many ways of saying things. You could present an objective point of view or you could just say "Poland saved the world from communism"!!!

I mean Finland won a war against the Soviet Union so why don't you say that they saved Sweden and Norway or hack even the world from communism.

Because in the 1920 instance The Soviets would have rolled on in to Germany with little resistance as the circumstances where very favorable, and world events where between breaths.

In the case of Finland there was no such power vacuum as above, and furthermore, neither Sweden nor Norway are or where remotely as significant for world politics as Germany or France that where threatened in the 1920 case.

More so, international commentators viewed the "Miracle at the Vistula" as pivotal for for Europe. There is an famous article written by a French (I believe) hight diplomat clearly proclaiming that Poland in deed did save western Europe at that time.

Clearly you still need to read up, relevant info can be found in Norman Davies "History of Poland".

Clearly you still need to read up, relevant info can be found in Norman Davies "History of Poland".

No offence mate but all of these "what ifs" are boring and juvinile, and can not be used as a proof of anything. I bet you're a big fan of Red Alert :)
Let's stick to facts, that way we will all be taken more seriously. And the fact is the following, quoting from your link:
"Poland, whose statehood had just been re-established following the Partitions of Poland in the late 18th century by the Treaty of Versailles, sought to secure territories which she had lost at the time of partitions; the Soviet's aim was to control those same territories, which had been part of Imperial Russia until the turbulent events of the Great War."
The rest is speculation.

I mean it's not like I'm not giving Poland credit, as I said in my earlier post I think Poland was a powerful empire; I'm just saying that there is no need for exaggeration when listing Polish achievements, they are good enough without it.

I don't feel like arguing today so i'll come back tomoroo. I really have to say this though, I'm tired of Racist people. Poland does not suck any more then england or france or any other nation does. Poland is not any better then England or France or any other nation.

I could say America sucks if you say Poland sucks, But do i? No i don't. so why should you do so?

This is not pointed at anyone. This is a more of a general post.

I never liked Red Alert, I liked Total Annihilation.

It is not a matter of "what ifs", the battle is called "the miracle at the Vistula" for a reason, and its direct result was that the Bolsheviks, in the midst of their revolutionary frenzy, did not sweep over disintegrating Germany.

Just as that the Soviets beat the Germans at Stalingrad was a turning point in WW2.

You know when I read the history of Poland, it looks like their sole purpose was to annoy the Russians for the entire period of their existance. :rolleyes: Just read the news, they are steel doing it admirably :lol:

Poland also seized to exist on several occasions due to it being partitioned between major powers at the time.

You know when I read the history of Poland, it looks like their sole purpose was to annoy the Russians for the entire period of their existance. :rolleyes: Just read the news, they are steel doing it admirably :lol:

Poland also seized to exist on several occasions due to it being partitioned between major powers at the time.

First they where annoyingly larger and stronger, and then when they where smaller, and even "conquered" they still where freer in spirit and annoyingly aloof in refusing to assimilate. Is that what you mean?

I think Poland is a pathetic civilization.

During the EU-summit in Germany, the Polish president complains about his country voting power, it's to low because there died many poles during World War II he said.

Get over it. It's 62 years behind us.

Combined with the irritating complains of the i-want-poland-in community here on this forum, I'm now sure their pathetic.

First they where annoyingly larger and stronger, and then when they where smaller, and even "conquered" they still where freer in spirit and annoyingly aloof in refusing to assimilate. Is that what you mean?
This will be more correct: "First they annoyingly tried to conquer and assimilate, and when they became smaller they are annoyingly afraid of larger, stronger and freer in spirit neighbour."

About the topic, I don't mind including Poland in the game. Anyway, it will be better than HRE.

I think Poland is a pathetic civilization.

During the EU-summit in Germany, the Polish president complains about his country voting power, it's to low because there died many poles during World War II he said.
.

Despite I don't like him, he was somehow right ;) Milions died, millions were incorporated into Soviet Union lands. Anyway German voting power system is worse than presented by Poland, but very few people are brave enough to say that.

Despite I don't like him, he was somehow right ;) Milions died, millions were incorporated into Soviet Union lands. Anyway German voting power system is worse than presented by Poland, but very few people are brave enough to say that.

If you are saying (your English is a bit eccentric in the post quoted) that the voting system that all EU members (including Poland) agreed to in 2004 is inferior to the one Poland has now suddenly demanded, why is it that no other EU country shares the Polish attitude? I do hope you aren't going to claim that the reason is that all other EU countries are afraid of Germany, because that would simply be nonsense.

And DO NOT bring up WWII. The whole point with the EU is to put all that behind us. If Poland does not want to do that, then you should leave the EU.

I just looked in my picture folder and discovered a Dutch poster, I got from my sister last month. It's about the European Union.
The Dutch government threatens the dutch that they withdraw from the EU, if they reject the EU-Constitution once again.

But the poster asks: But do we want a part of this Europe.

And the reason, we would NOT want a part are.
The Irish send their women to sea for a abortion.
The EU subsidy Tobacco-Farmers in Spain, while spending millions on anti-smoking campaigns.
On Malta they shoot millions of birds, with no good reasons.
An stupid monthly migration of EU Members of Parliament between Brussels and Strasbourg.
The Roma are even today discriminated in Hungary and often don't get the Healthcare and Education they need.
Bulgaria is one of the most corrupt nations in Europe.
And the Polish government investigate if one of the Teletubies is gay.

Germany wasn't a colonial power, it was the major power in Europe.
Wrong.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a7/Deutsche_Kolonien.PNG
In the words of Patrick Milton, learn things. Learn things.

Despite I don't like him, he was somehow right ;) Milions died, millions were incorporated into Soviet Union lands.
While no one will dispute that (at least I hope so), this is still a very bad argument to base a claim for more voting power on.


Anyway German voting power system is worse than presented by Poland, but very few people are brave enough to say that.

It doesn't have anything to do with bravery.

First of all, the "German" voting system isn't substantially worse (or better) than the Polish version. The German version is favoring the largest and smallest member states, while the Polish version is favoring those in-between. None of the two is inherently better, but since one of them is backed by all member states, and the other one is backed by exactly one member state, I'd say go with the first.

There are people who'd prefer a square root system, even here in Germany. But they are in the minority, and most of them realize that a change in the voting system is very much necessary due to the growth of the EU, and they accept that the majority favors a different system. That's how democracy works.

Poland has to accept that once it joins a larger community, there will be *some* decisions that disfavor Poland. Without accepting this, international communities cannot exist. Personally, although I've welcomed the addition of Poland to the EU (contrary to many of my countrymen, who feared an influx of cheap workers etc., you know the deal), I think that when Poland is actually willing to block a decision that is necessary to make the EU a workable political body in the future, then the EU would be better off without them.

Whether Germany was the major power in Europe is a matter of opinion.

This will be more correct: "First they annoyingly tried to conquer and assimilate, and when they became smaller they are annoyingly afraid of larger, stronger and freer in spirit neighbour."



Well they did try to conquer a few times, but not as often or as aggressively as some of its neighbors, despite them being bigger and stronger, they never where as expansionist/imperialistic.

When ever has Russia been free in spirit and not a land of serfs? Kiev Rus?


On the topic: As long gone civs seem to be less controversial maybe Kiev Rus would be a good alternative to Poland, as dead and "ancestral to many present nations" as HRE.

Lithuania could be nice as well.

I think Poland is a pathetic civilization.



Says a guy who comes from a country that has built its wealth on chickening out of wars and then profiteering from them during and after, whilst it otherwise always has been a backwater.

Whether Germany was the major power in Europe is a matter of opinion.

In the years preceding the Great War it's a matter of fact.

I just tried to convince you to be more objective, it seems you don't like Russia. Our countries have many difficult moments in history, but as for me I don't think Poland is "better" or "worse" than Russia. We can improve our relationships if we won't recall the history too much.

Kiev Rus IMHO will be like "another Russia" (and HRE is like "another Germany")

On the topic: As long gone civs seem to be less controversial maybe Kiev Rus would be a good alternative to Poland, as dead and "ancestral to many present nations" as HRE.

Saying that would be highly controversial to the Ukrainians.

As for Poland, it had a misfortune to be stuck right in the middle of several expanding empires, it's been invaded from scandinavia, russian side, and german side.

I can't comment on the free spirit and things like that, but Poland pretty much had to be artificially reinstated as sovereighn nation after WWI. Later it's territories were shifted to the west with parts being taken by USSR and parts taken away from Germany. So from the point of view of outsider Poland has been pushed and pulled around by anyone who pretty much wasn't lazy enough to do even that. This is hardly a defining characteristic of a great civilization.

So from the point of view of outsider Poland has been pushed and pulled around by anyone who pretty much wasn't lazy enough to do even that. This is hardly a defining characteristic of a great civilization.

That is from the pov of an ignorant outsider (or at least one with surface deep knowledge of the events).

Poland was a great military power, or at least the most militarised country in Europe at the time of the partitions, because the noblemen had military training and the right to bear arms and constituted ten percent of the population.

The problem was rather that the noblemen had to many and to far going rights, like the veto, that cripled Polish internal politics and laid the country open for foreign meddling.

All noblemen had the right to vote for the sucessor for the throne, and a lot of other rights. Poland had religious freedom and the first modern constitution in Europe (2nd in the world).

(red_elk, Russia has acomplished many impressive things, amongst them in music and literature, but not a lot in the field of its citizens rights)

In the years preceding the Great War it's a matter of fact.

Germany was not a mightier military power than Britain.

Germany was not a mightier military power than Britain.

You aren't right. Germany couldn't invade in England because the British Navy was better than the German Fleet.

Could a moderator please lock this thread? The Poles are not in BtS. End of story. Discussion over. It's degenerated into a silly AH-style debate.

Could a moderator please lock this thread? The Poles are not in BtS. End of story. Discussion over. It's degenerated into a silly AH-style debate.

and its geting into off-topic stuff. hehe.

Says a guy who comes from a country that has built its wealth on chickening out of wars and then profiteering from them during and after, whilst it otherwise always has been a backwater.

OK, if it's national flames you want...

1. Poland didn't mind playing the hyena and grab the Cieszyn area from Czechoslovakia when Germany was about to gobble up Czechoslovakia in 1938. And then there was the complacent Polish attitude to the Holocaust. There was a reason why the Nazis placed all the death camps in Poland; they knew the Poles wouldn't mind.

2. To put it mildly, Sweden was and is less a backwater than Poland is. I suppose that's why you choose to live in Sweden. My suggestion to you is: Be a hero and go back to Poland.

You aren't right. Germany couldn't invade in England because the British Navy was better than the German Fleet.

Yes, and that proves my point. And then the troops from the British Empire started to arrive in Europe.

Could a moderator please lock this thread? The Poles are not in BtS. End of story. Discussion over. It's degenerated into a silly AH-style debate.

I agree with you. Let's move on.

P. S. Before this incessant campaign started, I wouldn't at all have minded if Poland had been included as a civ in the game. I would now.

You are both right anyway. The British Empire could call on huge manpower resources and spent more money on WW1 than any other power but this couldn't be done straight away .The Expeditionary Force of about 100,000 professional soldiers was consumned by the conflict within weeks.

Could a moderator please lock this thread? The Poles are not in BtS. End of story. Discussion over. It's degenerated into a silly AH-style debate.
yep, please lock this thread. I'm thread maker

That is from the pov of an ignorant outsider (or at least one with surface deep knowledge of the events).

Poland was a great military power, or at least the most militarised country in Europe at the time of the partitions, because the noblemen had military training and the right to bear arms and constituted ten percent of the population.

The problem was rather that the noblemen had to many and to far going rights, like the veto, that cripled Polish internal politics and laid the country open for foreign meddling.

All noblemen had the right to vote for the sucessor for the throne, and a lot of other rights. Poland had religious freedom and the first modern constitution in Europe (2nd in the world).

(red_elk, Russia has acomplished many impressive things, amongst them in music and literature, but not a lot in the field of its citizens rights)

I'm not sure you should be advertising this as an + point for Poland. What you are basically saying is that Poland had muscle, but not brains. And even if it was a military power, that power was absolutelly useless, because it couldn't be directed anywhere, because the country was in a political limbo.

So I don't see anything wrong with my comment about the Polands situation. The fact that it was military power, is sort off irrelevant, since nothing could be accomplished with that power.

You are both right anyway. The British Empire could call on huge manpower resources and spent more money on WW1 than any other power but this couldn't be done straight away .The Expeditionary Force of about 100,000 professional soldiers was consumned by the conflict within weeks.

True. That's a good summing up. My point was merely that Germany's position as the mightiest military power in Europe in 1914 was not a given.

OK, if it's national flames you want...

1. Poland didn't mind playing the hyena and grab the Cieszyn area from Czechoslovakia when Germany was about to gobble up Czechoslovakia in 1938. And then there was the complacent Polish attitude to the Holocaust. There was a reason why the Nazis placed all the death camps in Poland; they knew the Poles wouldn't mind.

2. To put it mildly, Sweden was and is less a backwater than Poland is. I suppose that's why you choose to live in Sweden. My suggestion to you is: Be a hero and go back to Poland.

Heck man he started it, I did not call his homeland pathetic, he called mine for no reason other than his deeply cemented belief of Swedish supremacy, I merely pointed out some facts. But you are unable to grasp that because your the bad sort of Swede (a Kind not uncommon) that thinks his country is number one, not unlike a "patriotic" America.

1. Poland was no more or less antisemitic than any other country in Europe, and had no people in the SS, unlike Sweden. The bloody king of Sweden wrote fan mail to Hitler.

2. Of coarse Sweden is less an backwater than Poland Now. Because you sat out WW2 as a Nazi fiefdom and profited of the war, whilst Poland got awarded with 50 years of totalitarian communism that froze social development.
Sweden was a backwater until it got industrialized, and did not get ahead untill after WW2 for the above reasons. You can read it in in history class for gods sake. Or read Alf Henrikssons "Sveriges Historia".

Where amongst other things youl find that in the seventeenth century Stockholm was to Krakow as Växjö is to Paris Today.

So be a hero and admit your a nationalist, damn supremacist you!

really, guys, at this point (after 1st expansion), there aren't any real superpower or pop-culture-popular civs to add. it then gets to the point where they look for the "most obscure ethnicity", as someone puts it. by then, any regional power or semi-regional power is game.

So be a hero and admit your a nationalist, damn supremacist you!

What did he say that is nationalist?:confused:

This thread should indeed close -- people are just flaming at one another.

This thread should indeed close -- people are just flaming at one another.

i agree. even Pho doesn't get this hot. :)

wheres the moderator?????????????????????? :mad:

Yes, and that proves my point. And then the troops from the British Empire started to arrive in Europe.

With the troops of USA.

I'm not sure you should be advertising this as an + point for Poland. What you are basically saying is that Poland had muscle, but not brains. And even if it was a military power, that power was absolutelly useless, because it couldn't be directed anywhere, because the country was in a political limbo.

So I don't see anything wrong with my comment about the Polands situation. The fact that it was military power, is sort off irrelevant, since nothing could be accomplished with that power.

Well it is true, no need to hold it in then. Of coarse the decline of power was much more complicated then that. Amongst other things similar social unrest was happening in Poland as in France, so the partitions where justified by the partitioner's as neccessary to prevent the spread of revolution.

But you claimed that Poland could be pushed around by anyone and that is far from true. It took the three regional superpowers to do it.

What did he say that is nationalist?:confused:

This thread should indeed close -- people are just flaming at one another.

He went of on the old "my country is much better than your country" BS.

To hold such beliefs and voice them is the definition of being a nationalist in my book.

And he wrote:"Be a hero and go back to Poland." Which is classical Racist/nationalist rethoric, sure set of some bells in my head.

Saying that would be highly controversial to the Ukrainians.


Why? The Ukrainians where part of Kiev Rus, have I missed something?

Agh.. Moderator please close this topic. I can't stand people argueing like this.

" Poland SUCKS"

^ I don't want to hear this and i'm quite tired of hearing this, and it is getting thrown in and out everywhere in this thread. I'm tired of Racist people. Poles are the same as any other people in the world. Except we're obviously kinder, and we don't say bad things about other peoples. Proof is in this Thread.

Seriously guys, Chill out. This is a game. Poland is a Marvelous option just as Austria, Sweden, Ukraine is. I just wanted some East European representation. (preferably slavic), and what other better option is poland or ukraine. I don't mind if one get's in or the other. Although Poland seems more likely cause of the russian thing with ukraine.

And i have to say, WE ARE ALL NATIONALISTIC. Just because your X and i'm Y and Y isn't in the game, It doesn't mean Y isn't a bad option, so X shouldn't say it's a bad option.

He went of on the old "my country is much better than your country" BS.

To hold such beliefs and voice them is the definition of being a nationalist in my book.

And he wrote:"Be a hero and go back to Poland." Which is classical Racist/nationalist rethoric, sure set of some bells in my head.

With both the nationalist and racist part you refer to the following sentences?
"To put it mildly, Sweden was and is less a backwater than Poland is. I suppose that's why you choose to live in Sweden. My suggestion to you is: Be a hero and go back to Poland."

Here he admits Sweden is also backwater. Giving in to that means that he is not really nationalistic. Maybe proud, but that is hardly a crime.
The "go back to Poland" thing is indeed quite ruff. This could indeed be considered nationalistic, although not racist. I had more the idea that he meant that someone shouldn't criticize the country he/she is in if he/she thinks the "homeland" is better. (Only less polite)

Agh.. Moderator please close this topic. I can't stand people argueing like this.

" Poland SUCKS"

^ I don't want to hear this and i'm quite tired of hearing this, and it is getting thrown in and out everywhere in this thread. I'm tired of Racist people. Poles are the same as any other people in the world. Except we're obviously kinder, and we don't say bad things about other peoples. Proof is in this Thread.

Seriously guys, Chill out. This is a game. Poland is a Marvelous option just as Austria, Sweden, Ukraine is. I just wanted some East European representation. (preferably slavic), and what other better option is poland or ukraine. I don't mind if one get's in or the other. Although Poland seems more likely cause of the russian thing with ukraine.

And i have to say, WE ARE ALL NATIONALISTIC. Just because your X and i'm Y and Y isn't in the game, It doesn't mean Y isn't a bad option, so X shouldn't say it's a bad option.


you're the most reasonable (and still Nationalistic) Pole here. :goodjob:

maybe i should start a Vietnam thread too. :D

where is that moderator already!

you're the most reasonable (and still Nationalistic) Pole here.

Well i take that as a pseudo-compliment thing. And your the most Reasonable (yet nationalistic) Viet here. :goodjob:

Why? The Ukrainians where part of Kiev Rus, have I missed something?

It's a bit of a touchy topic. Ukrainians don't like Russians that much at this point. And there was a bit of national pride thing going recently. To make long story short, Ukrainians don't like being associated with Russians in any way.

OMG. Look at this thread (especially the last few pages)! It’s a shame. What will the rest of the world think about us Europeans?
I hope in 50 years we won’t have such kind of conversations – which European country was/is the “coolest”/sucks and stuff like this.
“God bless the EU”. That's one reason why we need it and I hope it will work.

It's a bit of a touchy topic. Ukrainians don't like Russians that much at this point. And there was a bit of national pride thing going recently. To make long story short, Ukrainians don't like being associated with Russians in any way.

neither do any other non russian slavs.

I'm a pole and i hate to be called a russian or a german.

That is why Poland is an option for the game. Just like Ukraine is.

With both the nationalist and racist part you refer to the following sentences?

To put it mildly, Sweden was and is less a backwater than Poland is. I suppose that's why you choose to live in Sweden. My suggestion to you is: Be a hero and go back to Poland."

Here he admits Sweden is also backwater. Giving in to that means that he is not really nationalistic. Maybe proud, but that is hardly a crime.
The "go back to Poland" thing is indeed quite ruff. This could indeed be considered nationalistic, although not racist. I had more the idea that he meant that someone shouldn't criticize the country he/she is in if he/she thinks the "homeland" is better. (Only less polite)

He claims that Sweden has always been less of a backwater than Poland, which of coarse is a factual error that I pointed out.
The reason why I reacted so harshly is because I have spent most of my lifetime in Sweden, constantly having to defend my country of origin from people like him, claiming BS like the above.

So he pushed my buttons claiming ignorant BS that I have heard over and over again from Swedes for years.

:gripe:
You see the problem with a lot of Swedes is that because of their countries obvious material wealth and social and moral successes, they occupy a self proclaimed moral high ground which in essence is all about that everything Sweden does and has done is morally superior to whatever anyone else has done and will do.

It is irritating as heck, especially in the long run.

I mean living here it is quite easy to see for one self that Swedes are no better or worse than anyone else.

Unfortunetly, unlike most other people, a huge part of the Swedish population live in the delusion that practically everything in Sweden is superior to everything anywhere else.

And huge structural problems in Swedish society, are not taken care of because "this is Sweden and nothing is ever wrong here, therefor there is no need to do anything about the problems because they do not exist lalalah".

Basically Sweden is the world center of double standards.:vomit:

God did any of you read my posts. It doesn't only refer to Poland it reefer's to Sweden and every other country, Nation and Identity.

Oh thats great, no one likes the russians no more. Atleast there in the game though :P

God did any of you read my posts. It doesn't only refer to Poland it reefer's to Sweden and every other country, Nation and Identity.

Yes of coarse your right, I just had to explain myself a bit.:hammer2:

Sorry.

Go EU Go!:banana:

With the troops of USA.

As I recall, the American troops didn't start to arrive until late in 1917, and they were not present in force until the following year.

Basically Sweden is the world center of double standards.:vomit:

In which case you should do yourself a favour and not live here. I think that that is merely a common-sense suggestion. You insult my country and yet insist on living here. I call *that* double standards.

In which case you should do yourself a favour and not live here. I think that that is merely a common-sense suggestion. You insult my country and yet insist on living here. I call *that* double standards.

It can't be double standards if I haven't claimed that Poland is better to live in than Sweden.

Great a Swede war in a polish thread :crazyeye:

Damnit where are the russians when you need some Annexing to be done :P

Hell with russia, let's get Rome instead! :lol:

He claims that Sweden has always been less of a backwater than Poland, which of coarse is a factual error that I pointed out.
The reason why I reacted so harshly is because I have spent most of my lifetime in Sweden, constantly having to defend my country of origin from people like him, claiming BS like the above.

So he pushed my buttons claiming ignorant BS that I have heard over and over again from Swedes for years.

:gripe:
You see the problem with a lot of Swedes is that because of their countries obvious material wealth and social and moral successes, they occupy a self proclaimed moral high ground which in essence is all about that everything Sweden does and has done is morally superior to whatever anyone else has done and will do.

It is irritating as heck, especially in the long run.

I mean living here it is quite easy to see for one self that Swedes are no better or worse than anyone else.

Unfortunetly, unlike most other people, a huge part of the Swedish population live in the delusion that practically everything in Sweden is superior to everything anywhere else.

And huge structural problems in Swedish society, are not taken care of because "this is Sweden and nothing is ever wrong here, therefor there is no need to do anything about the problems because they do not exist lalalah".

Basically Sweden is the world center of double standards.:vomit:
That sounds eerily similar to....here. Which would be the United States....

Hell with russia, let's get Rome instead! :lol:

no, how about the Holy Roman Empire?

or even better, Vietnam? :lol: (that won't happen any time soon, sorry Pho)

cybrxkhan: I think TheLastOne wants to see another Pole on St Peter's throne :D

hey! I get that... :lol:

i didn't :(

Heh heh...

Hell with russia, let's get Rome instead! :lol:

Damn straight: a better climate, and a place where they appreciate the cream of Poland when they see it! :goodjob:

i didn't :(
Pole on St. Peter's throne = Pope John Paul II

Yah it took me awhile for me to get it due to my english but i understand now.

Thread closed at the request of the thread starter.

Oh, and let's stop the Polish jokes.

-- Your part Polish Moderator.