I am playing a game as Tasunke of the Hippus (great synergistic traits!) and there were 3 civs following FoL - myself (although I had the 2nd lowest score), Varn Gosam (top score, had the FoL holy city), and Cardith Lorda (2nd top score). Huge map - lots of civs that hated us. I had something like +10 to Varn Gosam (no negatives either) and we were best buddies!

Cardith's land separated Varn and my land but we all had open borders. Out of the blue Varn declares war on me and I'm like :confused: This isn't like another game someone posted where the dwarves? killed Corlindale with an assassin - Varn took a couple of turns to get to my land anyway.

Illogical because:
- It was an alliance of 3 who got on really well in a world of enemies.
- There were plenty of other civs whom he hated and they hated him
- Varn has a border with Os Gabella!

Why would you declare war on an ally when there are real enemies nearby?



PS Varn destroyed one of my cities (not an important one) but I killed 3 heros (Baron, Yvain, the national hero str 9) and built Magdanine and pillaged almost every improvement in his territory (and made a huge amount of gold from it!).


Also new smiley! :backstab: This smiley should be in the quick access box! :lol:

how were you doing on the power graph when it happened?

The warscript isnt the only thing that causes wars. The game also uses the traditional function to declare wars. In time I may disable the traditional function but that doesnt sound like a warscript call.

how were you doing on the power graph when it happened?

Hmmm I'm not sure but I was the 2nd lowest overall score out of a dozen or whatever (huge map, default number). EDIT: Here's the graph of the last 100 years:
http://img123.imageshack.us/img123/3342/powergraphtasunkeeb5.th.jpg (http://img123.imageshack.us/my.php?image=powergraphtasunkeeb5.jpg)



Varn Gosam also declared war on Cardith Lorda recently! Cardith was also a close buddy (FoL etc) and was 2nd highest score! I thought good civs were meant to backstab less... EDIT2: Maybe Cardith converted to RoK and this caused the war? I can't remember how long he has been RoK but he only recently built Tablets of Bambur.

Varn's gone a-crazy-loco!:crazyeye:

on that power graph you're very low compared to Varn and Cardith, who are the top 2, where as Os-Gab is right up there with them. you prolly looked like the easiest target nearby.

it does seem weird that he'd attack the only other Leaves follower tho, killing Flauros seems a wiser choice since hes weaker than you and a different religion. maybe they havent met?

Maybe Varn was planning on attacking you a long time ago but then you became "Friendly" with him so he decided to let you live for a much longer amount of time but he was still locked into the decision to declare on you. You've been weaker than Varn for a long time so unless he was "Friendly" with you for all those years, he might have decided to declare on you before you reached the "Friendly" threshold. That's how Civ AI backstabs work, it decides a while back to declare on someone, during which time they refuse to be bribed into war on the grounds that "We have enough on our hands right now." (take this text as a hint next time if the person is not already at war with someone), and after making a decision no amount of relationship changing or military building will ever prevent the AI from declaring on the intended target.

As for why he attacked Cardith, well I've always known Varn to be an ultra bigot (-6 change limit!) so changing to a different religion is often enough to drop a "Friendly" Varn down to at least a "Cautious" unless the other person worked REALLY hard to keep that relationship up.

you can avoid backstabbing a little by calling a holy war but it usually get the ai into war mode so it will declare war as soon as they make peace

Maybe Varn was planning on attacking you a long time ago but then you became "Friendly" with him so he decided to let you live for a much longer amount of time but he was still locked into the decision to declare on you. You've been weaker than Varn for a long time so unless he was "Friendly" with you for all those years, he might have decided to declare on you before you reached the "Friendly" threshold. That's how Civ AI backstabs work, it decides a while back to declare on someone, during which time they refuse to be bribed into war on the grounds that "We have enough on our hands right now." (take this text as a hint next time if the person is not already at war with someone), and after making a decision no amount of relationship changing or military building will ever prevent the AI from declaring on the intended target.

As for why he attacked Cardith, well I've always known Varn to be an ultra bigot (-6 change limit!) so changing to a different religion is often enough to drop a "Friendly" Varn down to at least a "Cautious" unless the other person worked REALLY hard to keep that relationship up.

"We have enough on our hands right now." means they are going to declare war on you? Is there a thread with more info on backstabbing script?

I've been a FoL follower for nearly as long as the religion has been founded and it was the first religion to be founded!

You're better off anway, I've always found Varn to be a horrible ally. he constantly asks for gifts and war help but will rarely ever return the favor. One of my least favorite civs to share a map with, Cardith is up there as well.

"We have enough on our hands right now." means they are going to declare war on you? Is there a thread with more info on backstabbing script?

I've been a FoL follower for nearly as long as the religion has been founded and it was the first religion to be founded!

Can't really say that there is a thread that will tell you exactly when or why an AI will declare on you, it's pretty much common knowledge that gets picked up as you play the game and/or read succession games. All I was really trying to tell you is that if you see the AI redlining all the declare war options in the trade proposals and gives you the reason "We have enough on our hands right now.", then the AI is either at war with someone currently or planning on declaring war on someone (possibly you but also possibly someone else). If the AI is less than "Friendly" with you at the time of the decision and you were considerably weaker, then you may want to start building up a military.

You're better off anway, I've always found Varn to be a horrible ally. he constantly asks for gifts and war help but will rarely ever return the favor. One of my least favorite civs to share a map with, Cardith is up there as well.

Agreed! :mad: I hate when I find Varn Gosam next to me! A creative, financial, ultra bigot next to ME?!? :aargh:

Just wanted to mention that the Tasunke's traits aren't all that fitting :).

You have to check your military power every few turns or so... don't go crazy to check it every turn, but every 15-20. If you're in the top botton list you have not one but several AIs coming for you.

Playing on prince, been the second most powerfull in the game, I've had 4 AIs declaring war on me. They hated me because my religion was different. But I've been declared war by "allies" if my military was very low (I always play with aggresive AI, so maybe this also helps, but I like to have wars).

Just wanted to mention that the Tasunke's traits aren't all that fitting :).

Why don't you like them? I thought aggressive and raiders works very well with a horse civilisation. Agg gives Combat I and raiders gives extra XP as well as commando which works well for making high movement units even higher movement! Also pillaging gives lots when you can pillage a few times per turn with each unit!

I'm wondering if you were using the Aggressive AI option?

I've found one way Fire seems different from Light is that using this option seems to trigger many more wars, the majority of which are declared on me.

Many of them just don't make sense.

For example, as I mentioned in another thread, Svartlafar always seems to declare war on me and they keep sending small groups of Hunters and Warriors with no promotions just to be slaughtered.

I've also noticed some piling on. In one recent game I had five of the nine AI civs declare war on me the same turn. Man, the sound of that nearly knocked me out of my seat.:eek:

Actually I think I had aggressive AI off (but raging barbs on).

i think the AI has gotten a tad smarter since now they really tend to declare war on civ that is already under attack (just like a you would do, right?).

Well in my case it was Valledia who :backstab: me. Before she declared war we had +24 !!! (highest of all my allies), and even during war we had +15 !!
On the powergraph I am on top, but I think it must have been this sneaky Cardith who pulled her right into war :mad:

this one's before she declared war on me:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/94207/Pre_war.JPG
this one's during war:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/94207/War.JPG

so this dogpile warscript thing seems to work almost to good :)

Wow.. -36 with Cardith.. impressive lol.

Strange that you'd be attacked with +24

-36 is not so difficult if you're playing as the Sheaim and everyone is blaming you for destroying the world :D I just love Ashen veil :devil: (at that moment I think the "you are destroying the world" was at -11 or so)

It sometimes seems like Cardith's actions aren't even tied to his opinions of you. Durring a brief truce between him and his permanent ally, Basium, and myself (Alexis, the founder of AV, owner of their patriarch, and by far the strongest AV civ) he was more than willing to trade with me. He gave me two resources for the price of one and freely gave me tribute, even though he was easily the strongest civ in the world. Too Bad Basium quickly put an end to our deals. Whenever he would actually talk to me we gt along fine.

I wsa playing as the sheim, and had sumoned Hyborem. we had been at peace (hey, even friendly) for years... together, we brought that counter up to 47.

than spontaneously, hyborem declares war on me. he maintains the "friendly" during the entire war, though he refuses to talk to me.

Varn Gosam is very well known by me for this kind of illogical backstabbings. Most of the times he doesn't care of any condition and just attacks his neighbour (which I happen to be a bit too often :P). As you can read in the other thread, I hate him. He's the reincarnation of Montezuma :D

Why don't you like them? I thought aggressive and raiders works very well with a horse civilisation. Agg gives Combat I and raiders gives extra XP as well as commando which works well for making high movement units even higher movement! Also pillaging gives lots when you can pillage a few times per turn with each unit!

Okay, Raiders is fine (a bit less since it no longer gives Commando to mounted units), but Aggressive gives nothing to mounted units. I've mentioned this before, I think Aggressive leaders should be allowed to pick which type of unit gains the Combat I promotion at the beginning of the game. Maybe the same could be done with Raiders, it'd be fair if only one type of unit gained Commando.

Okay, Raiders is fine (a bit less since it no longer gives Commando to mounted units), but Aggressive gives nothing to mounted units. I've mentioned this before, I think Aggressive leaders should be allowed to pick which type of unit gains the Combat I promotion at the beginning of the game. Maybe the same could be done with Raiders, it'd be fair if only one type of unit gained Commando.

According to the wiki (http://civ4wiki.com/wiki/index.php/FfH_Aggressive_%28Trait%29) Aggressive trait gives combat I to mounted units - which is why I chose Tasunke. Actually I thought commando still helped mounted units which again is why I chose Tasunke. If these traits don't help mounted units then it does suck quite a bit!

-36 is not so difficult if you're playing as the Sheaim and everyone is blaming you for destroying the world :D I just love Ashen veil :devil: (at that moment I think the "you are destroying the world" was at -11 or so)

I saw in someone's screenshot that the Amurites give a positive bonus if you are destroying the world (strange since they are neutral!). Do you know which civs give positive bonuses for destroying the world by any chance?

Amurite gives a positive world-destroying bonus because she is evil in this game (she has the ashen veil religion)
I think that most (for example auric and feryl viconia do not give that bonus) of the evil civs have a positive attitude towards world destruction, but the religion may also play a role in there, e.g. ashen veil worshippers like it, whereas FoL-worshippers don't like it
but it's just a guess

According to the wiki (http://civ4wiki.com/wiki/index.php/FfH_Aggressive_%28Trait%29) Aggressive trait gives combat I to mounted units - which is why I chose Tasunke. Actually I thought commando still helped mounted units which again is why I chose Tasunke. If these traits don't help mounted units then it does suck quite a bit!

Times have changed. Agressive and Raider both apply to mounted units.

The Game with Amurites liking the destruction of the world could have ben one with random personalities. They could have gotten the Sheaim personality. I know that Auric in my last game had the Arendel Phaedra's personality based on his alignment and favorite wonder.

The Game with Amurites liking the destruction of the world could have ben one with random personalities. They could have gotten the Sheaim personality. I know that Auric in my last game had the Arendel Phaedra's personality based on his alignment and favorite wonder.

Actually the game was without random personalities, so I think it was due to the switch to the AV-religion that made her think positive about the destruction of the world