FfH MaxMod Mod 23c1 Download! (http://www.3ddownloads.com/Strategy/Civilization%204/Mods/Fall%20from%20Heaven/BlazeMod23c1.exe)


Patch 23c4 (http://www.3ddownloads.com/Strategy/Civilization%204/Mods/Blaze%20Maxmod/BlazemodPatch23c4.exe)



Version 21d.6 still Available Here (http://www.3ddownloads.com/Strategy/Civilization%204/Fall%20from%20Heaven/BlazeMod21f.6.exe)

Patch 21f.7 (http://home.earthlink.net/~tkena1/BlazemodPatch21f7.exe)

Note! This will install over your existing Fall from Heaven mod folder! So, if you plan on playing "vanilla" FfH, I would recommend making a copy of this folder and renaming it something easy like, Fall from Heaven Standard(or what ever you wish).



Well, its just a name anyway. I have been tinkering with the code for quite some time, throwing ideas together. Some have been realized as mods already out there, and some just notations in various threads. Patch D is out, so I am trying to get things organized and put up as quickly as my schedule will allow. (And a note I have never seen any other modder out there mention... the change logs may be the most time consuming thing you will do as a full blown mod maker!).

That being said, I will get a change log in place as soon as I can, with the mod to follow directly(or very soon thereafter). Just as a small preview, I have included some of the following:
Maniac's: Rise of Mania
- Selected changes from Maniac's amazing mod, including Nomadism and some of its units, special unit promotions, terrain changes, and Building changes
SureShot's ModMod
- Including new units and graphics(minus the terraforming Units.. I thought that the magic solutions already in place could be made better to allow for this). Promotion and Improvement Changes, New Wonders, and some balancing code.
Golo'waya's Total Victory for FfH
Improvements Outside Borders by TheLopez
Random Name Utilities by exavier
Changes from the great community minds
-bdmarti's Fort code
-Saien's Mokka's cauldron fix
Tech Leak by Sevo!
Influence Driven Wars by Moctezuma
Kill Lists by Rogerbacon
Other Great Idea Implimentations!
-Disciple unit changes and upgrades.
-Defeating a Hero means something to the World! You're units won't make a suicidal run at a Hero anymore with being rewarded with all the fame that comes from defeating these noteworthy foes!


Okay, sounds, exciting, right? I sure hope so. Just like FfH, this is a work in progress, and once I get the changes details up, and the mod for testing, we can all keep going to make this insane mesh of great mods and ideas a growing, living thing.

Cheers!

And for those interested
SDK Changes (http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/27065/CvGameCoreDLL.023.blazemods.rar)

Okay, Here is the basic changelog.


Change Log Updated(8/14) For 2. 023 Patch C Rev 1


Essentials Change Log: Blaze’s Maxmod Mod Ver FIRE! 23c1
Buildings
1. Re-added Elemental Flame Wonder(Reduced Fire bonus to 1)
2. Added 3 New Wonders and 1 New World Project from SureShot
§ Great Zoo- +1 Hap to all cities, Summons the Raider King to your cause
§ Twisted Laboratory- +25% Research, +1 unhealthy. Summons Typhoid Mary to do your bidding
§ Liches Tomb- +1 Death mana, +1 Great Prophet. Unleashes the Lich King on the World(barb unit)
§ The Great Hunt- +1 Nature Mana. Unleashes the Shadow Wolf on the world(Barb Unit)
3. Alchemy Lab provides +1 happiness with Gunpowder. Fireworks! Alchemy Lab increases beakers output by 25% instead of a fixed 4 beakers.
4. Walls defense bonus increased to 35%. Walls cost 90 instead of 120 hammers
5. Hall of Kings requires Divine Right instead of Theology
6. Herbalist requires Herbal Lore instead of Agriculture
7. Syliven’s Perfect Lyre’s cost lowered to 500 hammers
8. Hippodrome requires Stirrups instead of Warhorses
9. Theater reduced to cost 200
10. Bazaar of Mammon requires Trade instead of Currency
11. Celestial Compass requires Alteration. Double production speed with Dimensional Mana.
12. Tower of Eyes costs 500 instead of 700 hammers
13. Great Library now provides only 1 Great Scientist
14. Towers of Magic Cost Increased Substantially. No longer require mana to build, but grant mana when built.
Civilizations
15. Svartalfar: unique units/graphics added for Adept, Mage, Archmage, Conjurer, Summoner, Worker, Settler, Lich, Prophet, Warrior, Maceman, Immortal, Scout, Hunter, Ranger, Beastmaster, Assassin, Shadow, Longbowman, Flurry, Marksman, Horse Archer & Knight.(Credit SureShot)
16. Doviello can still build Forge
17. Calabim :Unique units added for Scout, Hunter, Ranger, Shadow, Assasin.(Credit SureShot)
18. Grigori can run Public Healers
19. Ljosalfar can bloom forest under their cities.
20. Clan of Embers, Doviello, and Lanun special cottages added.
21. Now Using FfH Team code for this function. Added Malakim and Clan of Embers Racial Promotions to that code. ((Civilizations with distinct racial backgrounds, units receive racial promotions. Ljosofar and Svartalfar units get Elf Promo/Khazad and Luchrip units get Dwarf Promo/Malakim gets Nomad Promo/Clanof Embers gets Orc Promo(SureShot))).
22. Hidden Nationality Disabled due to coding conflicts with Fort code(I had to make a choice and stayed with Forts, since Hidden is going away with BtS anyway).
23. Morgoth and Faeryl Have become Adaptive instead of Hidden.
Units
24. Most of Maniacs Promotion upgrade paths added(almost all of them , it’s a big list!)
25. Promotions Added for Disciple Special Damages(Blaze)
26. Reduced Base Priest Strengths significantly, but added Affinities.
27. Disciples now start with Channeling 1 to allow automatic experience.
28. Priests Must be upgraded to from Disciples that have spent some time in the world(lvl 3).
29. Snow and Desert Movement Promotions Added(Credit SureShot)
30. Knight is no longer a national unit: can be built infinitely : -4 strength
31. Doviello melee and archer units now have normal costs.
32. Archer of Leaves starts with Woodsman I, but loses Elven.
33. Nomadic Horseman, Nomadic Chariots, and Nomadic Horse Archer added
34. Man O’ War requires the Blasting Powder technology
35. Hunter requires Tracking instead of Hunting
36. Orc Worker can build Farm, Mines, Pasture, Plantation in Jungle
37. Grigori Medic now requires Herbal Lore and Herbalist
38. Dwarven Druid can see Shadows. Requires Divine Right
39. Flurry and Marksman require Pig instead of metal resources
40. Arcane Barge requires Alchemy instead of Sorcery
41. Monk requires Religious Law instead of Priesthood
42. Bloodpet never becomes obsolete
43. Sailor’s Dirge can move through Ice
44. Rith - shapeshifting hero, can initially shapeshift into a wolf, as he gains Combat promotions he can shift into better animals.(SureShot)
45. Lunaunce – Added as Late game Shapeshifter, First shift is into a Griffon and just gets more exotic from there!
46. Bard (requires Drama)(SureShot)
47. Shadow Wolf added. Barbarian Unit. – Functionality added to Sto maps
48. Civilizations with distinct racial backgrounds, units receive racial promotions. Ljosofar and Svartalfar units get Elf Promo/Khazad and Luchrip units get Dwarf Promo/Malakim gets Nomad Promo/Clanof Embers gets Orc Promo(SureShot).
49. The Drown, Stygian Guard, Eidolon and War Turtle cannot lose Water Walking due to Dispel Magic.
50. Floating Settlement added, Unique SeaFaring Unit. Can built Trading Posts on coast tiles. Consumes Unit
Terrain and Improvements
51. Movement through Ice requires 2 movement points
52. Movement through Tundra requires 2 moves
53. Movement through Peaks requires 2 moves
54. Roads take 4 turns to build
55. Forts. – Forts provide –1 Food, +1 Gold, 25% Defense
56. Sentry Towers can now be Built! They act as an “upgrade” to Forts. –1 Food, +2 Gold, +35% Defense(Can prepare better as you can see your enemy coming from further away).
57. Forts and Towers can be built outside of Cultural Borders.
Spells and Special Functions
58. Visibility and Invisibility spells added(Maniac)(No current Use with Hidden Trait Disabled, code retained)
59. Bloom Forest is possible on terrain improvements and Jungle, but destroys the improvement
60. Spring and Scorch modified to change Grasslands/Plains accordingly
61. Changed Unit level requirement to be sacrificed to lvl 1
62. Retained Mooka’s Cauldron Functionality. Instituted code change to create Skeleton when non-matching unit is sacrificed(Thanks Saien!)
63. Under Military Discipline units gain one extra experience per combat. Not cumulative with Valor.
64. When razing a holy city, a mana node is created and the razer receives a Great Prophet (or Adventurer for the Grigori).
65. Sprawling Cities default number increased to 4. Sprawling cities calculations adjusted(more “dynamic”. Map size changes now change the number of cities by means of multipliers, not additions).
66. When a Hero is defeated, the unit that defeats him Gains the Hero Promotion and reveals his own name!(Blaze)
67. Disciples Gain Affinities when they Reach Priest level.

Wholesale Imports!
68. Fort ZoC and defense calculations added (original code by bdmarti)
69. ChokeFortModule added. Builds forts in “chokepoints” in the map (Credit Dreiche2).
70. Total Victory for FfH (Adapted from Sevo by Golo'waya)
71. Random Unit Names added (Credit Exavier)
72. Improvements Outside Borders added (Credit TheLopez)
73. Tech Leak (Sevo)
74. Kill List (Roger Bacon)
75. Influence Driven War (Moctezuma)

Known Issues

White Rabbit needs animation (anyone up for it?)






Patch notes for 23c4


Patch Notes Change Log: Blaze’s Maxmod Mod Ver FIRE! 23c4
Buildings
1. None
Civilizations
2. None
Units
3. Bard Art Updated
4. Tuurngait Art updated
5. Unicorn size adjusted and they are no longer “wild” animals.
Spells and Special Functions
6. Raise Earth Button art fixed
7. TechLeak rate has been halved(default was for Marathon length games. I set it to disperse on a scale between stnrd and epic).
Other Notes
8. TXT key fixed for Svart horseman.
9. Road Build times now returned to “standard” values


Wholesale Imports!


Known Issues
ü White Rabbit Unit does not have proper animation

(And a note I have never seen any other modder out there mention... the change logs may be the most time consuming thing you will do as a full blown mod maker!).

That's:
1) Why you should make your changelog while you're making the changes, not afterwards, to save you lots of trouble. :crazyeye:
2) Your changelogs will get less and less detailed as time progresses. ;)

Good luck. :goodjob:

(What's The Hidden Nationality solution btw?)

That was your Invisibility/Reveal spells for Hidden Trait leaders.

Thats why I mentioned the first revision would be out close on the heels of me posting the log :). As time consuming as it is, at least I have yours and Sureshots' to work off of. Huge thanks for that :D.


Cheers!

goodluck :)

Already caught some minor glitches on my own. Small update on first post. basic notes in second post.

Have a good night.

Cheers!

Looks nice, I'll check it out when I finish my curent Amurite game

If you're still open to new stuff, I have a set of tweaked civics you can try:


Nomadism receives a 15% penalty to production, but recovers that for military units.
I figured it'd be tough to gather a bunch of nomads together to make any kind of permanent building, especially wonders. Now pasture-spamming is a little harder. It's not very elegant, I'll admit, but there's currently no way to target building production without dealing with state religion.
Agriculture now affects farms again, but the bonuses are a little more balanced. It's still useful (especially now that Nomadism has been nerfed a little), but now it's only very powerful as an early-game civic; as your farms develop, eventually it could hurt you to keep this civic more than it helps you.

Farms: +1:food:
Villages: +1:food:,-1:gold:
Towns: -1:gold:
Metropolis: -2:gold:

Aristocracy has been modelled to (partially) counter Agriculture. For those who complained that Metropolises didn't give enough gold in RoM, Aristocracy was made with you guys in mind. Also, with this setup, Agriculture/Aristocracy is still a good combo (free +1:gold: from towns and metropolises ain't too shabby), but now they are even better on their own.

Farms: -1:food:
Villages: -1:food:,+1:gold:
Towns: +2:gold:
Metropolis: +3:gold:

Naturally, Aristocracy no longer provides a garrison bonus. That's been moved to Social Order.
As I said above, Social Order now provides a garrison bonus. It's upkeep has been bumped to Medium to compensate. I felt the Social Order civic needed something to snaz it up, and since I was already removing the garrison bonus from Aristocracy, I decided to add it here.

Thanks for the idea Mr Underhill. I actually didn't retain Maniac's Village/Metropolis scheme. It might be worth adding.

You're suggestions make some sense however. The "cheapness" of settling units in Nomadism does seem a little off with just the food hit. I wonder if it wouldn't make sense to have those units producable only by means of "Drafting" them from the population of a city.
I like the Arg/Arist balance you're looking at though. I'll give it a shot and see how it works.

When you apply bonuses/penalties like this, they are not cumulative, right? It doesn't apply like the Techyieldmodifiers. Just thinking out loud here, should they be coded to at least act like they are cumulative? or does that not make sense to do?

Cheers!

I thought you might want to know, there are a couple RoM changes that I would personally remove due to changes made by the FfH team:

29. Camel Archer starts with the Nomad promotion

That's also in regular FfH these days.

38. Monk requires Religious Law instead of Priesthood

Because Monks have been reduced to strength 5, I don't think it would be too powerful to put them back at Priesthood.

40. Sailor’s Dirge can move through Ice

I included this because the Dirge sometimes started in Ice. However some code has been changed in regular FfH to prevent this, so this change is no longer necessary.

45. The Drown, Stygian Guard and Eidolon cannot lose Water Walking due to Dispel Magic.

Don't forget about War Turtles.

Thanks for the tips Maniac. Since I merged with patch D, I noticed tha Camel Archer thing, just didn't remove the note.

I left the Monks at Religious Law for 2 reasons. Despite being lowerd in strength, RL isn't that deep into the tech tree that it concerned me, and second, it made more sense to me.. at least, in the fantasy worlds I am aware of, monks are primarily Lawful students of philosophy. Though usually attached to a religion, it didn't seem out of bounds to seperate them off.

Glad to know about that fix on the Sailor's Dirge, but I think I'll leave it for thematic reasons. It is obviously a "ghost" ship(as it produces all those skeletons, so Ice shouldn't really be a barrier for it anyway.

I thought War Turtles were Ocean Domain units... I'll check and adjust if not.
:: I forgot they replaced War Elephants, and are Domain_Land. Oh, the codes already there, just need to change the notes.You're a genius Maniac.

Thanks!

Cheers!

BlazeRedSXT I think there's a little problem with the barb unit strength

Can you be more specific gandalf51?
I haven't noticed anything peculiar.

Can you be more specific gandalf51?
I haven't noticed anything peculiar.

You don't think that a unit with 33 strength for 100 hammers and theater (200 hammers and drama) is not a bit too strong ?

I just ran a quick search in my unitinfos file and didn't find what your seeing.
What Unit is it that you are having trouble with... again, specific would be nice.

Are you seeing the Attack/Defense rates?
A lot of units now have instead of one attack rating, have an attack rate, and a defense rate after it..
Like so 3/3.

Is that what you are seeing?

I don't understand the whole Hidden trait.. It says my units all have the invisibility skill, but I get attacked all the time :s

I just ran a quick search in my unitinfos file and didn't find what your seeing.
What Unit is it that you are having trouble with... again, specific would be nice.

How can I be more specific than giving the unit strength (33, 3 + 10 holy + 10 death + 10 poison), the name (bard), the cost (100 hammers), the tech (drama) and the building (theater) you need to build it ??????


Are you seeing the Attack/Defense rates?
A lot of units now have instead of one attack rating, have an attack rate, and a defense rate after it..
Like so 3/3.
Is that what you are seeing?

I think I can see when it's 3/3 and when it's 33, thanks.
And anyway it's 3(+10 holy, +10 death, +10 poison)

lol. lad, you said 'barb'' at first, so im pretty sure we all thought barbarian.

lol. lad, you said 'barb'' at first, so im pretty sure we all thought barbarian.

Maybe (but in the second post there's theater and drama)

Yeah, the "barb" thing threw me, the rest just didn't really register... Thank you for being setting things straight. You're right, the unit is goofed. I hope Sureshot notices this too, cause I pulled this unit right from his mod... :)
I'll get it taken care of ...
Okay, New patch going up with corrected Unit.

As for the Hidden trait. Good question. I am not really sure myself. As far as I can tell, it gives the Invisible/Reveal spell to all units, and that should grant your unit a promotion that gives them the Invisible tag. So, essentially anything that can see invisible, can see you. Recon Units, some animals, etc...

Cheers!

Ah, that'll explain it. I got attacked by spiders and lions (only had time for 30 minutes of play, and I always play in epic speed). Though I didn't know they could see invisibile units. I suppose lions are somewhat logical (nose) but I don't really understand spiders. But ah well, thanks for the info :)

I think that Giant Spiders are the animal that can see invisible (they also are invisible). The lion could only see you because you were within the spider's line of sight. If any unit sees an invisible unit, the other units nearby can too (I think).

Yeah, spiders can see invisible, and are invisible(think feeling a fly on its web :) ).
True, the Lion itself can't see invisible, but since I as a player can notice invisible units when a Recon is around, then I imagine the AI would use this to his advantage too. As much as there are faults to the more advanced functions(diplomacies, etc... and Kael and Co have made huge leaps to cover that gap!), the tactical AI is pretty impressive in this game.
I have been testing as the Svart recently and I have walked by Lions, Hill Giants, and other creatures with my Hunters without them attacking me... so it seems to be working as intended.

I know the original Hidden trait was intended to function as a continuos Fog of War in the Civs borders, but though the team left the Trait in, I think they said functionality was being pushed back to Shadow(seems appropriate). So, this is kind of a temporary solution that Maniac dropped in, and I just kept it, cause That put an extra button to push on a units abilities... and I am easily distracted by shiny things like buttons :D

So, it seems like everything seems to be working fairly well at this point... except for my Disciple Upgrades. I am considering alternatives to the automatic upgrade. Maybe attach the upgrade to the Temples, and have the Disciple units have to take a turn to "train" the damage upgrade... I'll see if I can get that to work.

Cheers!

Hm, I just noticed I had a 100.1% chance to win.

Awesome, now I really have no chance of losing :D (I'm a bit paranoid with combat odds, losing my heroes at 99% combat odds), but it's most likely a bug.

got a wierd bug , seems to be link to the new victory condition

situation : 16 civ , me as sheim. map custom continent
i desactivate the total victory , only to keep conquest and religion

around turn 10 i got a message that i win a conquest victory
each time i got this again =/
i desactivate conquest and then it work fine

any idea? thanks

Hmm.. interesting, I'll check with Golo'waya. I know he mentioned something about Conquest victory had to over-ride the Total Victory in order for it to work properly, it sounds like its probably tied into that.

The combat chances.. .hmm... I am not sure if that is in the core, or the SDK, but I know I didn't change anything related to combat in the SDK, so I am not sure what your seeing there, were there any specific promotions involved? what where the 2 units in the combat?

Cheers!

Nightfoot vs Goblin (Ancient forest)
+40% Strenght (Combat 2)
+10% from ancient forest (Elven
2 First Strikes (I suppose this is a svartalar thing, seen a lot of first strikes on my units)
Shock aswell, but didn't do anything in this case.
And ofcourse, invisibility.

The goblin had +50% defense from Tile Defense (forest)
Didn't check if the gobline had any promotions which didn't take effect

And I've noticed multiple times that my Rith got attacked while he was invisible. Does the HN interfere?

Edit: Oh and, how do I get those other cottages? I can build the normal ones, but it doesn't say how to build the +food and +production ones. And, a minor bug I suppose, multiple improvement icons in the research panel have three versions:
The usual
The elven (Dwarven if mine)
TEXT_KEY_BUILD_PLANTATION_ORG

Also, what's this "A unit has become legendary" thing? Had it twice until now (at turn 113, year of orthus), I suppose it's a hero with 100exp? Altho turn 113 is a bit fast for a hero with 100 exp.

about bards, i made them before the new strength system was in place, so dont look at me for any weird strengths heh, also, i haven't included them in recent versions because i haven't decided how id like them with the new system.

about the Firststrike for svartalfar, ive changed them since then, im currently trying them with 1 strength switched to poison and regular firststrikes for units of tier2 or higher. not sure if im going to keep it that way tho.

Thats strange Gravage, I don't see anything unusual(like any of the new promotions e.g.), But as I noted early on, There may be some conflicts with the Patch D SDK and the Total Victory SDK... I am trying to check into that now.
Which other Cottages are you talking about? I didn't implement the upgrade path that Maniac had in his original Mod, and The other post dealing with That sort of improvement is something I am still considering(Credit Mr Underhill, good ideas and may make it in. I am testing some of them, and will probably code in the others to test sometime this week).

As far as that 3 TEXT_KEY_ that will probably be the Orc version of the improvement. I put a patch to fix that and the Bard Str issues in my first post. It shouldn't break anything.

Well, they are fixed up right now. I loved the idea SS, so I kept it in(for bards). It is a nice Fantasy style Buffing unit(by the time he comes in, his combat strengths aren't especially high, so I think it works nicely). I'll keep an eye on your thread to see how the new unit str. designs are going.

I'm probably talking about the maniac ones then yea. Even if you didn't implement em in the standard way, I can still put em on my tiles through WB, and the Wiki says they exist. And what's that legendary status thing about?

Hmm.. maybe we aren't talking about the same things then. I didn't even add Maniacs' to the Improvements file.

Sorry, thats in my patch notes. I set it up so that when a unit destroys a Hero, he gains the Hero promotion from him. After all, if some soldier in the cog defeats the mighty Orthus, or Valin, certianly the world would know and he would gain the fame of a hero himself. I'd like to make that message more Dynamic, and possibly add some sort of script to give such a Unit a unique random name with the Promotion.. haven't gotten that far with it yet though :)

Cheers!

Yea I knew people'd get the hero promotion, but I found it rather strange that there had alreday been 2 hero's at turn 113 y'know. Only guess is that Cassiel went great people crazy. And as afor the cottage; that's really awkward. I actually reinstalled FfH today, and then applied your patch..
I've prolly done something wrong. Still awkward tho.

Well.. I suppose I can hunt down an installer program and build it into that. It would make it easier.. I'll see what I can do.
Well, With Rith being a new early Hero, Cassiels Adventurer Hero's and Orthus... it does sound pretty wild that that many got out that early in Marathon, but not unlikely. Also, it could be that whoever took the original Hero status was killed by someone else.

Cheers!

Well actually, Orthus got killed around turn 116, Rith got killed at turn 200something and Branding prolly got killed before turn 113. But besides Branding there must've been another hero.. Also it was Epic, not Marathon.

Just started my first maxmod game. Should an elven slave (dark elf unique worker) really be able to build both elven and dwarven improvements, be faster than a normal worker, and be upgradeable to a military unit (I forget which one)? That seems like too much.

I'm not sure invisibility is working properly. I (Faeryl Viconia) have lost multiple invisible units to barbarians (regular Orc Spearmen, nothing fancy like a Giant Spider) and my units are seen when trying to move through my neighbors territory, generating the usual "are you sure you want to declare war" type message. I also plainly see the invisible promotion on all his clearly visible units (my nearest neighbor is Morgoth). Do does the hidden trait or the invisible promotion (I believe that some of his units were in the line of sight only of a captured lion, who was neither invisible or able to see invisible, iirc) also grant the ability to see invisible, or is this a bug?

It sounds like you downloaded before I added the fixes...(I think there was some copy-paste errors in the UnitsInfo file originally) and the Patch should fix the first issue(and the patch installer got goofed up!) If you have Broadband, you can download the whole thing again, it should include all the relevant fixes.. otherwise, the patch installer path got goofed, if you used that, check in your mods folder, there will be a lonely Assets folder, you can drag and drop that to the actual mod folder, sorry about that... I should be able to get a repaired patch installer up today.

As for the Hidden Trait. This is something I grabbed wholesale from Maniacs mod. It should give those Civs with the trait the ability to use a "spell" to become invisible. I can see that the promotion is there, but for some reason it doesn't really seem to work.
I think I may end up just taking this out, since it doesn't seem to do exactly what its supposed to, and just creates some confusion. I'll give the Svart a different trait to make up for it.

Also, About the Total Victory feature. I can't track down where that conquest bug is. I personally like the idea of it, and would like to keep it in, but if it will conflict with a lot of people's desire not to use it... I could take it out. Anyone have a particularly strong opinion on it? Just a note, Conquest will over-ride it, so if you defeat everyone before Time comes up, it should give you that victory.


Cheers!

The core of the hidden trait is in CvEventManager.py.

def onBeginPlayerTurn(self, argsList):

for pUnit in py.getUnitList():
if pUnit.isHasPromotion(gc.getInfoTypeForString('PROM OTION_REVEALED')):
pUnit.setHasPromotion(gc.getInfoTypeForString('PRO MOTION_HIDDEN'), True)
pUnit.setHasPromotion(gc.getInfoTypeForString('PRO MOTION_REVEALED'), False)

def onCombatResult(self, argsList):

if pWinner.isHasPromotion(gc.getInfoTypeForString('PR OMOTION_INVISIBLE2')):
pWinner.setHasPromotion(gc.getInfoTypeForString('P ROMOTION_INVISIBLE2'), False)
pWinner.setHasPromotion(gc.getInfoTypeForString('P ROMOTION_HIDDEN'), False)
pWinner.setHasPromotion(gc.getInfoTypeForString('P ROMOTION_REVEALED'), True)

def onUnitMove(self, argsList):

pUnit.setHasPromotion(gc.getInfoTypeForString('PRO MOTION_INVISIBLE2'), False)
if pPlot.isOwned():
if (pUnit.isHasPromotion(gc.getInfoTypeForString('PRO MOTION_HIDDEN')) and pPlot.getOwner() == pUnit.getOwner()):
bValid = True
if pPlayer.isHuman() == False:
if (pPlot.getImprovementType() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('IMPROVEMENT_FORT') or pPlot.isCity()):
bValid = False
if bValid == True:
pUnit.setHasPromotion(gc.getInfoTypeForString('PRO MOTION_INVISIBLE2'), True)

def onUnitCreated(self, argsList):

if pPlayer.hasTrait(gc.getInfoTypeForString('TRAIT_HI DDEN')):
unit.setHasPromotion(gc.getInfoTypeForString('PROM OTION_HIDDEN'), True)

Thanks Maniac.

I really like the idea of of this trait and your implimentation( at least until Kaels ultimate vision of it is complete). I just checked, and for some reason, a lot of the code you jsut put up isn't in your python file for ver11 of your mod.
That could definitely be why it didn't seem to be working properly. Not really sure what happened there.

alright, going to get this fixed up and back in, I will just be redefining patch 3.

I like the notes, I'm unsure if I will be able to run it though. In fact, it would be really nice if modders out there include the version of FFH their mods are currently supporting.

edit: Giant Spiders can NOT see the invisible. They can see hidden animals. This means they can't see hidden svartalfar units, and the same goes with regular recon units.

edit2: Maniac, from your code I undestand that the AI will "reveal" the unit if it's defending a city or a fort right ?

Hmm.. sorry, I though it was implied by the 21d in my mod title.

For future references, I will be using that sort of code for all upcoming versions... e.g. when the release version .22 my mod title will show :
FfHMax Mod 22
FfH patches are done by letter, and mine by a period following a patch number... So, currently, the main download shows FfH version 21, patch D, Maxmod Patch 2.

Sound good?

Cheers!

sure does, after it's explained ;)

Cool.

Okay, hopefully someone out there with a knack for this can give me some ideas here. I am trying to get my Combat Upgrades for Priests running.
I found an interesting bit here. It seems like I won't be able to get it working the way it is. Seems like the getNumBonuses isn't coded to be seen in onUnitCreated,
For those unfamiliar, the idea is to give a +1 special damage type to Priests(and Priests are now upgrade only from Disciple units), when the civ has a specific Mana type.
Funny, because it seems to translate fine for the Adepts getting free upgrades in onUnitBuilt, but since my new Priests aren't being "Built", it won't work there.
Anyway, I see 2 ways around this. First, adding the getNumBonuses to the SDK to make it available to CyUnit functions. this may be ultimately the best way to do it, but honestly, I'm not sure my skills are up to it, but I'm willing to give it a shot if the consensus is this is really the most prudent way to do it.
The other way I can see is add it to onBeginPlayerTurn. I would have it see if the player had the mana type and make that promotion true for UnitClass_Preists_x. This would add a some work to processes every turn, but I'm not sure how much. I know Kael and team unloaded a lot of similar functions off to the SDK in this version to keep the CPU cycle at the begining of a turn down, but I am pretty sure I can code this up without too many problems.

Opinions? Ideas?

Cheers!

Your problem isn't that getnumbonus() isn't seen. But that onUnitCreated runs before the upgrade process does. So it follows the following order:

1. Create your new priest.
2. Process him through onUnitCreated (adding whatever you have set).
3. Upgrade- ie: copy all the attributes from the disciple over to the priest (and therefor wipe out anything you did in onUnitCreated).
4. Delete the Disciple.

Its a real pain. I've been meanign to reverse the order for a long time (so onUnitCreated runs after the upgrade). I need to check that out.

In the meantime you may want to grant the perk to disciples when they hit the level they need to upgrade to priests (just in onUnitPromoted). Or you could have a function that checks every turn for priests without their +1 upgrades and applies them (cpu intensive). Or when a disciple dies (sacked by the upgrade) you could search that disciples stack for a priest of the same religion that doesnt have the perk and apply it).

Excellent! Thanks for the response Kael. I can see, once you put it in the current order, why its giving me that error call. It is funny and counter-intuitive the way it seems to process now.

Hmm.. I'll test a couple of your recommended solutions and see what I like.

Thanks!

Hey man, I'm just thinking, if a unit defeats a hero like Orthus, it gets the hero promotion. However, looking at the way you posted it in your 2nd post, when someone defeats a huge ass nasty dragon, it doesn't get the hero promo because the dragon didn't have it. Perhaps change it to World Units _and_ heroes? Just a thought, sorry if you do get hero promo for dragons (haven't tested it out, acheron's constantly spawning far away).
Oh and btw, I absolutely LOVE getting hero promo for defeating a hero. Great idea. (7 str dwarven soldier at turn 120 FTW! :P)
And I really like what you've done so far. Great addition to FfH, though somewhat confusing at times (like descriptions saying "Grants three fire mana", while it's actually a completely different wonder, and Public Bathrooms saying "+3 happyfaces and +1 dirtyface", while you changed it to +2 happyfaces and +1dirtyface. But this is all minor and only annoying when you're really unfocussed).
Edit: Oh, I actually have a(nother ;p) question for ya, when I research fishing, I can create a national unit fishing boat (limit: 1) and a normal fishing boat. Any difference between the two?

That confused me at first too. The boats are the same except that the national unit does not need to be on a tile containing fish, clams, crabs, etc. in order to build fishing boats; when it builds them, there is a chance that fish, etc, will be discovered. Since this action consumes the boat, you can them build another one. I think that the normal boat upgrades to the national unit one, since I have never seen both available at once. The national unit might also cost more, but I'm not sure.

I believe that whales were also on the list of discoverable resources, which seems wrong since they would need whaling boats instead of fishing boats to access. It could also be that the fishing boats created by the national unit are in fact a completely separate improvement, and that it can harvest all the water resources. The fishing boats never actually uncovered anything for me (I didn't really play that long), but they did boost food and gold from my water tiles.

I'm pretty sure I built fishing boats on a normal (empty) tile without the national unit one. I'm also able to build em both, and they cost the same.

I believe that if the national unit one is available, it will be the boat built. It can sometimes be hard to tell them apart. I'm pretty sure that when I had one of each type on the same empty tile at the same time only one of them had the option to build fishing boats.

I thought about adding a Dragons defeat to bring on the Hero Promotion... and it is a good idea, but I kind of started out just doing it against units that were already Heroes. As much as I am kicking things around in this mod, I wanted to kind of keep as much of the status quo as I could, but I"ll add a note to potentially do this in the future.

As far as the boat... I don't know for sure. It was one of the units I drew from SureShot. I don't see anything special about it, other than its a national unit. Any boat should be able to put out fishing nets on any coast tile now, with a chance to discover bonuses. Should be... I wonder if it was originally added to provide the Lanun sea cottages... maybe I am just missing something and SS will call me on it.
This thing has been sort of a mess :) ... more work than I thought it would be, but its been a blast.

Back to testing.

Cheers!

Okay, so heres the whats up with the Priests Combat Bonuses.

I poked around all afternoon getting it to work via Kael's suggestions... but it just wouldn't bite. Either it would tell me that CyUnit didn't have a certain Attribute, or that an 'int' or 'tuple' didn't have an Attribute. Either I am missing some key bit of knowledge about python process here(which is likely), or something... my brain is too tired to consider what else I could be missing... because using the same instances (e.g. unit = argsList[1], as per in the def onUnitBuilt) in different definitions produce vastly different errors... I don't know.. going to hunt food...

I did get it to work though, but I will have to set Priests back to being buildable units, since thats the only place I could get it to work at the moment. With that thought, I was considering allowing Disciples to keep Channeling 1. It would be sort of a trade off situation... Priests that "came up" through the ranks could then access spells like Sanctify, but couldn't have the extra Str that newly trained Priests would have.

Maybe some genius will jump in and tell me what I'm missing, and I'll be able to implement one of Kael's suggestions, and then that will all be moot.

I think the promotion route would be the best way to go.. so this is what I did.. I tried using the code more or less as is(from Adept automatic spell upgrade), but got an 'CyUnit' doesn't have getNumBonuses(I tried using .hasBonus , but it gave me essentially the same error, and tried using "if pPlayer.getNumBonuses"(and .hasBonus), but that gave me a CyPlayer error...so I kept it as close to existing code as possible to eliminate an error of ignorance on my part). I then noticed that the inst. unit was defined differently where I ..err.. borrowed my code from so I created a new instance with the same definition as was used in onUnitBuilt. and got 'int' has no Attribute getUnit... Anyway, this is what I was working with in unitPromoted(the indentation doesn't transfer well here, but its right in the py)
# city = argsList[0]
# iUnit = argsList[1]
# if iUnit.getUnitCombatType() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNITCOMBAT_DISCIPLE'):
# if iUnit.getLevel() >= 4:
# iNum = city.getNumBonuses(gc.getInfoTypeForString('BONUS_ MANA_FIRE'))
# if iNum >= 1:
# iUnit.setHasPromotion(gc.getInfoTypeForString('PRO MOTION_KILMORPH'), True)

Try the following:


def onUnitPromoted(self, argsList):
'Unit Promoted'
pUnit, iPromotion = argsList
player = pUnit.getOwner()
pPlayer = gc.getPlayer(player)

if pUnit.getUnitCombatType() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNITCOMBAT_DISCIPLE'):
if pUnit.getLevel() >= 4:
if pPlayer.hasBonus(gc.getInfoTypeForString('BONUS_MA NA_FIRE')):
pUnit.setHasPromotion(gc.getInfoTypeForString('PRO MOTION_KILMORPH'), True)

if (not self.__LOG_UNITPROMOTED):
return
CvUtil.pyPrint('Unit Promotion Event: %s - %s' %(player.getCivilizationName(), pUnit.getName(),))


Note that I pointed to the hasBonus on the player not the city (thats a special FfH function) because you cant always assume a unit will be in a city when it promotes.

Hey Blaze, forgive the ignorance but does this install over the top of the existing Fall From Heaven install? And if so, will that mean making a fresh re-install whenever FFH or your mod are patched? Is there some way of running the two side-by-side for comparison? Civ4 mods confuse me enough as it is, and mods on top of mods are just too much for my poor head :D

Anyway, really like the sound of the changes and can't wait to give them a try!

Wow, Thanks Kael, I guess I was pretty close.. I must have missed that particular combination. good point about being in a city.

Polycrates: Right now I do have it set up to install over the Fall From Heaven mod directly.

I would say the best way to do it is to go ahead and install the FfH stuff. Then go ahead and install my stuff.

Then you'll have to get a little involved with explorer. Open up My Computer and go to C:\Program Files\Firaxis Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 4\Mods
You'll see a folder there Fall From Heaven 2 021. I would rename that, maybe something like Fall From Heaven 2 021Blaze(or something, just so you know what it is).

Then go back and Install the Main Fall From Heaven install again.

Then, when you go into Civ 4 and go to set your mod, you should see both Fall and Fall...Blaze. Set to play as you wish.

I hope I didn't make that too simple, but it sounds like you are a basic user, so that is probably the easiest way to do it.

Cheers!

Ah yeah of course, that makes a lot of sense. Thanks!

Giving the mod a try now!

Sorry folks, even with Kael's help, it seems this Priest promotion just doesn't want to play.

This is what I ended up with finally, to cover everybody(reiterating for each StateReligion)::

if pUnit.getUnitCombatType() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNITCOMBAT_DISCIPLE'):
if pUnit.getLevel() >= 4:
if pPlayer.getStateReligion() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('RELIGION_RUNES_OF_KILMORP H'):
if pPlayer.hasBonus(gc.getInfoTypeForString('BONUS_MA NA_FIRE')):
pUnit.setHasPromotion(gc.getInfoTypeForString('PRO MOTION_KILMORPH'), True)

And I thought I had gotten pretty close to this somewhere in the middle of my trying different combos... I guess I got close enough. This failed to with..
Attribute Error: 'CyPlayer' does not have Attribute 'hasBonus'.

BUT! With great persistence, and my little bit of know how.. I dug through the SDK CyPlayers to see if there was a function that Would work here... and found it!
#Jmod Grants Priests Bonuses with Mana

if pUnit.getUnitCombatType() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNITCOMBAT_DISCIPLE'):
if pUnit.getLevel() >= 4:
if pPlayer.getStateReligion() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('RELIGION_RUNES_OF_KILMORP H'):
if (pPlayer.countOwnedBonuses(gc.getInfoTypeForString ('BONUS_MANA_FIRE')) >= 1):
pUnit.setHasPromotion(gc.getInfoTypeForString('PRO MOTION_KILMORPH'), True)
if pPlayer.getStateReligion() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('RELIGION_FELLOWSHIP_OF_LE AVES'):
if (pPlayer.countOwnedBonuses(gc.getInfoTypeForString ('BONUS_MANA_MIND')) >= 1):
pUnit.setHasPromotion(gc.getInfoTypeForString('PRO MOTION_LEAVES'), True)
if pPlayer.getStateReligion() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('RELIGION_THE_ORDER'):
if (pPlayer.countOwnedBonuses(gc.getInfoTypeForString ('BONUS_MANA_LIFE')) >= 1):
pUnit.setHasPromotion(gc.getInfoTypeForString('PRO MOTION_HEAVEN'), True)
if pPlayer.getStateReligion() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('RELIGION_OCTOPUS_OVERLORD S'):
if (pPlayer.countOwnedBonuses(gc.getInfoTypeForString ('BONUS_MANA_CHAOS')) >= 1):
pUnit.setHasPromotion(gc.getInfoTypeForString('PRO MOTION_OVERLORDS'), True)
if pPlayer.getStateReligion() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('RELIGION_THE_ASHEN_VEIL') :
if (pPlayer.countOwnedBonuses(gc.getInfoTypeForString ('BONUS_MANA_DEATH')) >= 1):
pUnit.setHasPromotion(gc.getInfoTypeForString('PRO MOTION_ASHEN'), True)

#Jmod End
So, there is the callout if you are looking to effect a Player. with a Bonus.
countOwnedBonuses(int /BonusString).

EDIT:: Tested it good right away, almost forgot to make sure it didn't work when it wasn't supposed to! But the good news is, it tests properly 100%


Cheers!

Hey again, during my current game I'm currently being harassed by nomadic chariots, which started to appear around age 150. Now, perhaps you wanted to add some more challenge to the barbs, but they're really annoying, especially for the civs who didn't get as lucky as I did (got bronze working through goodie hut). With 4 strength and 3 (?) movement they destroy your workers and warriors.

hmm.. as far as I know, I didn't change anything in the way Barbs are able to generate units. I think that x number of Civs have to have the same prereq techs for the barbs to be able to build specific units. That said, the Nomadic chariot may come a bit early, and they may be a little strong overall. I'll double check that, but I think that having wild Nomads coming in to raid you certainly fits thematically.

Also, A note. I mentioned earlier that I noticed a problem With the Shadow wolf getting generated multiple times when you first start the game in a Sto map. I just did a little poking there, and the only thing I can find that is different between Sto's maps and the otehrs I have checked against it is, Sto has a whole set of instructions to place Barbarian units in his scripts, and everyone else seems to be okay using the engines default schema. Not sure If there is anything I can do about this, since I am still not sure why the script picks on the Shadow wolf and leaves Typhoid Mary alone. Orthus and Sailor's Dirge have scripts in FfH to make sure they come out at a specific time, so I can see how they get "immune" to this wierd effect...

Thanks for the feedback Gravage!

Cheers!

Hm, I put goodie huts to crazy (12% of the map's land covered in em ;p), so people prolly just got Animal Husbandry a lot of times.
Thanks for replying so fast all the time btw, and np for the feedback :)

I just checked, and for some reason, a lot of the code you jsut put up isn't in your python file for ver11 of your mod.

Yes it is. :p

edit2: Maniac, from your code I undestand that the AI will "reveal" the unit if it's defending a city or a fort right ?

Yes. Invisible units simply teleport away if you walk in their tile, so without this you could just walk into Sidar and Svartalfar cities unopposed.

Doh! I see what I did. All that code was burried in areas that got moved from py to sdk in 21. I should have been more careful. And I should never have doubted the Mighty Maniac!

On the better news front. I have the bug with the Shadow Wolf in Sto maps figured out, and I put in a little trick to give Units that take on Hero status a unique random name(credit to Exavier for that function!). I want the World announcement to indicate the New name, but still trying to find the right function to make that statement Dynamic. I'll include it in the next patch, along with the Priest Combat Upgrades and some other minor fixes...
It seems that the Priest Combat Upgrades breaks saved games though, so I am trying to pile as much as I can into the next update to really make it count for you all!

Cheers!

I don't understand the whole promotion thing you are working on at the moment, but just looking at it, you are adding fire mana to RoK or something. I think earth mana would fit better thematically :)

Of course, since I don't know what I'm talking about I am probably WAY off!

Well, here is the thing... I pulled the idea from a discussion around here that Priests tended to be a bit underpowered in the mid-late game(stemming from Ring of Fire being too powerful).
I rolled the idea around in my head for a while and decided that the best was to do it was to add an "optional" Str bonus ot the priests. But I felt like they had to be worked for a bit, so I chose Mana Bonuses, and chose ones that didn't automatically relate to the Religion, but were still somewhat thematic
So I came up with those charts...
So, since Tablets of Bambur(sp?) grants +1 Earth Mana already(and Khazad being the most likely to rush Runes already having Enchantment Mana in thier Palace), I chose Fire(I know its already a little "overused", but) because the forges need Fire!(see, a thematic tie.. of sorts).
Anyway, I did a quick comparison on all the Religions trying to get the same sort of prereqs established, and chose a Bonus Mana to more or less fit.
So, I'm not actually adding mana, I am requiring that mana to be available to the civ with that religion in order for thier disciples to gain thier special damage.

Was that too rambling, or did that makes sense?

Cheers!

Ahh I think I get it now ;)

If you have that type of mana, you get a bonus! Would be silly to make it a mana type you will probably have!

As far as the boat... I don't know for sure. It was one of the units I drew from SureShot. I don't see anything special about it, other than its a national unit. Any boat should be able to put out fishing nets on any coast tile now, with a chance to discover bonuses. Should be... I wonder if it was originally added to provide the Lanun sea cottages... maybe I am just missing something and SS will call me on it.

not sure which version of stuff you grabbed, but currently Fishing Boats only find normal fishing boat resources, and Whaling Boats can find whales.

Nope, you're right on SureShot, sorry if my statement didn't make that clear.
The question was regarding a UNITCLASS_WORKBOAT2. I couldn't find anything special about it, other than it was considered a National unit in UnitClassInfos.
I pulled your files from the Last revision before you started your Fire revisions, so I guess that would have been the Complete Modmod 1.46J.

Cheers!

:: Gotcha. Thanks for the info on that... kind of what I thought.

the national workboat is simply less restricted than normal workboats, so that you can create workboats anywhere to make Fishing Boats in any lakes or small bodies of water. a big part of the reason for it was for the Lanun coastal cottages.

Hello all, Just wanted to give a quick update.
It looks like Golo'Waya isolated the bug with conquest victories after 10 turns, and KAel finally got the patch D source code up... so I should be able to get that all set up and included relatively soon.
Also going to be adding some more text( I just recently noticed that Eternal Flame STRATEGY was wrong and the new wonders were linked to it) keys.
I'm also considering adding the Improvements outside Borders modcomp. I know that Forts for instance are generally underused, but I always thought that it might be handy to be able to build them out in the "wilderness" to defend some point etc... Any opinions about the usefullness of that feature?

Alright, I'm off, have a good holiday!

Cheers!

the Improvements out of borders is incredibly useful

Yeah, thats my thought as well. I think I will incorporate it, since Kael released the latest source, and hopefully when someone figures out how to place limited culture patches, it can only get more useful.

Cheers!

I probably don't have the most current version, but civ specific heroes don't seem civ specific anymore.

Yea, I noticed that aswell. The Calabim were attacking me with Wilboman.
Edit: Just downloaded the newest patch. It installs to <Civ4>\Mods\Falls from Heaven 2 021 instead of Fall from Heaven 2 021. Minor thing, but may cause confusion
Edit2: Just booted the game, and during the initial loading time it reported an error about Work_BOAT2 unit false or something.

Okay, confirmed error with Wilboman... also the Svart can evidentally build the War MAchine! haven't checked other cis yet, but I did notice that the Svart can't build Wilboman, and neither can the Hippus. I checked the CivInfo file and confirmed the UnitClass and Unitinfo files.. I don't see why its doing that. Everything looks fine... I'll run some more tests and try and narrow down what is going on with hero units.

Thanks for the Bug reports Gravage!
I have the Workboat thing is a work in progress. I'll be fixing that in the next patch, and designating that as a special Lanun unit, to build sea cottages, I thought that might be causing the Hero thing, since it is a hitch in the UnitClass file, but I fixed it in my testing version and the Heroes are still acting strangely... Maybe they have decided to become mercenaries and are coming to the call of whoever builds them first :). I'll keep looking at it.

Yeah, sorry about the patch installation error.. typo in the installer build. I've got that fixed locally and shouldn't be a problem in the future.

Next patch will also include Improvements Outside Borders(Credit TheLopez). You will be able to build Forts and Towers outside borders. Yes, You will now be able to build Towers! They will be an "upgrade" to forts, offer an extra Gold, and a slightly better Defense(hey, you can see the enemy coming from further away and prepare better). Buildable with Engineering tech.

Cheers!

As Alexis I have built Wilboman, the War Machine, and and Rith. As Svaltafar, someone else has always built rith before I could.

Okay, confirmed error with Wilboman... also the Svart can evidentally build the War MAchine! haven't checked other cis yet, but I did notice that the Svart can't build Wilboman, and neither can the Hippus. I checked the CivInfo file and confirmed the UnitClass and Unitinfo files.. I don't see why its doing that. Everything looks fine... I'll run some more tests and try and narrow down what is going on with hero units.

Thanks for the Bug reports Gravage!
I have the Workboat thing is a work in progress. I'll be fixing that in the next patch, and designating that as a special Lanun unit, to build sea cottages, I thought that might be causing the Hero thing, since it is a hitch in the UnitClass file, but I fixed it in my testing version and the Heroes are still acting strangely... Maybe they have decided to become mercenaries and are coming to the call of whoever builds them first :). I'll keep looking at it.

Yeah, sorry about the patch installation error.. typo in the installer build. I've got that fixed locally and shouldn't be a problem in the future.

Next patch will also include Improvements Outside Borders(Credit TheLopez). You will be able to build Forts and Towers outside borders. Yes, You will now be able to build Towers! They will be an "upgrade" to forts, offer an extra Gold, and a slightly better Defense(hey, you can see the enemy coming from further away and prepare better). Buildable with Engineering tech.

Cheers!

will the ai consider towers/forts the natural upgrade for sentry towers?
and station at least one unit in them...

Thanks for the reporting of that little oddity. I rechecked the files and couldn't find any reason it would be doing this, with the Heroes being available to the wrong civs. But I found a way to fix it. Seems like for some reason I was exceeding some sort of maximum number of <Units> . The schema indicates this shouldn't be possible, as Maxoccurs shows "*"(I assume this means no limit in this context), but maybe there is a hard coded number somewhere. Anyway, I just moved the Units that were Unbuildable(Sailor, Hyb, Bassium), to the bottom of the list and that seemed to take care of it. I feel like I cheated, but it works!

Anyway, Patch 5 is up(as a patch only, The install is still ver 4), and since I added Improvements Outside Borders, and included the fix to Total Victory, It will break saves...The Notes are all updated in the 2nd post.

You guys have been great getting those little bugs IDed for me. Thanks!

EDIT:: eerr, thats a tricky AI thing that I am not sure about. Technically, Forts or Towers don't actually apply to a Bonus, but since they do add yields, and provide Defensive bonuses, they should defend them if it fits into thier usual defense AI scheme. There was work earlier on trying to get the AI to use defenders on Forts more reliably, but it didn't really work as expected... so I guess Forts and now Towers will really still be most beneficial to human players. I think there are some plans to work on the AI more at some point... who knows, maybe someday I'll have learned enough of this stuff to do some work on it :).

Cheers!

It seems like the forts' ability to halt movement is too much. I've had very powerful units with 5 movement remaining (both mounted units and ships) stopped by a single goblin with no promotions. Perhaps it should subtract a movement point or 2 instead of stopping any unit, or only have a chance of stopping enemies based on relative strength and/ the number of units garrisoned in the fort. It doesn't seem right that a powerful unit headed strait for a fort with 100% chance of victory over all the forts defenders, blitz, commando, and enough movement points to let it capture almost an entire empire by itself would be slowed down that much by one unit.

I've also seen areas of the map were almost every tile is covered in forts (many of these were on tundras I owned, where a couple of workers had been set to automate). I don't normally like distance requirements in the game, but a nearly 10 x 10 region of nothing but forts just seems kinds wrong.

I like that forts here are actually of strategic importance, but you may have gone too far.

I appreciate the feedback Magister. I'll shift the movement stop to a slow instead. I haven't seen the fort building behavior you are seeing... but I usually don't automate my workers(they tend to get into trouble that way... this seems a bit worse than usual though!).
The issue could be that there really isn't anything else you can build on Tundras, so the automated worker will just build what it can... thats probably part of the SDK AI behavior, but i'll see if changing some simple settings can curtail that type of building, or I'll need to impose a more exacting restraint.

Why do Flurries and Marksmen require pigs?

Because Pig intestines make exceptional Bow strings. Historically, cat guts were originally the preferred material for the most durable bow strings... but we don't have a cat resource :) . Plus, pig intestines became the most common starting in... hhmm.. France or Italy(can't rememeber exactly) after getting beat down by the english longbows so many times. I think I am remembering all that right(I'm not an historian after all, just an amateur).

BTW, the slow movement function for forts is in on my end, and I am testing exactly how slowed down certain units should be, but I am getting pretty happy with it. I am still testing to see if Fort spam is going to be a regular problem or just an occasional anomaly (sorry Magister, I still haven't seen it yet)..

Ohh, and I am considering your idea on Sprawling City Hubs that you raised in the Mania thread. I may try and work it in and release it to see if we can work out a good balance/cost for them... still not sure yet, as I already have 'buffed' sprawling cities a bit here...

Also, I am probably going to be helping Dark Russell a bit with his new Civ mod, and it very well might end up here... we'll see how it turns out!

Cheers!

does ring of flame deal holy damage now and is pillar of flame weaker than ring of flame now?

does ring of flame deal holy damage now and is pillar of flame weaker than ring of flame now?

Ring of Flames doesnt do holy damage, only fire damage. It does 10-20% damage (before all the modifiers) to all units within 1 tile of the caster.

Pillar of Fire does unholy and fire damage (for ashen veil priests) or holy and fire damage (for everyone else). It does 30-90% damage (before all modifiers, half of each damage type) to all units in the targeted tile.

edit: oops sorry. I was answering for FfH2 in general. Blaze may have changed this.

Not at all Kael, I appreciate the response. I haven't changed any of the damage Types those 2 give off... though in that thought, since I have swapped their position of power(RoF now being Divine/Fire 3 and Pillar being Divine/Fire 2) I may swap the damage typing to keep the holy/unholy damage in the Divine 3 ranked spell.

Also a note, I did not reduce the Str of RoF as Kael did in Patch D. So, with that said, being that RoF can stike at more opponents, with only slightly less damage potential than Pillar(which only does damage to units in one tile, as opposed to multiple tiles), overall I think RoF is not weaker than Pillar.
If you find this to be untrue in practice, let me know and I'll see about creating a better Balance.

Cheers!

Okay, just wanted to pop in and let you all know that I saw Patch f roll right over patch e... and I will get this stuff integrated as soon as I can. I may wait a couple days to see if SureShot or Maniac are going to do anything tricky with this update, and wait till then to upgrade and bring their new stuff in-line.

Cheers!

i really think the damage from pillar of fire needs to be reduced, flipping them just made confessors and ritualists even more uber. also meshabber of dis cant cast ring of flames anymore so his special power with it is useless

Well.. I'll run some more tests.. you may be right about the Pillar damage... I look at it like this though, Pillar can hit a stack in one tile... while RoF can hit stacks in up to 8 tiles... total damage is huge! Plus, I didn't reduce the damage of RoF, like Kael did... my solution was the spell level change... It still may not be the best fix... but I'm always glad to get constructive feedback.

I'll fix Meshabber.

I have patch F mostly corrected, and am looking into a couple of bugs, but should have an updated ready relatively soon.

I appreciate the feedback Magister. I'll shift the movement stop to a slow instead. I haven't seen the fort building behavior you are seeing... but I usually don't automate my workers(they tend to get into trouble that way... this seems a bit worse than usual though!).
The issue could be that there really isn't anything else you can build on Tundras, so the automated worker will just build what it can... thats probably part of the SDK AI behavior, but i'll see if changing some simple settings can curtail that type of building, or I'll need to impose a more exacting restraint.

Actually, I LIKE the fort stopping and doing damage ability- that rocks! It doesn't matter how UBER your stack is, you still have to take out that garrison on your way to conquer.

Well.. I'll run some more tests.. you may be right about the Pillar damage... I look at it like this though, Pillar can hit a stack in one tile... while RoF can hit stacks in up to 8 tiles... total damage is huge! Plus, I didn't reduce the damage of RoF, like Kael did... my solution was the spell level change... It still may not be the best fix... but I'm always glad to get constructive feedback.

I'll fix Meshabber.

I have patch F mostly corrected, and am looking into a couple of bugs, but should have an updated ready relatively soon.

One problem I noticed- the invisibility doesn't seem to work yet, except to make my city defenders get pushed out of my cities instead of defending them. Grr... It's kind of aggravating having to check it's turned off on my troops after they are built- can you make it so they stay if they are in a city, or at least the invisibility is off while in a city?

Thanks for the feedback CV. Well, I compromised on the Forts. I kind of agree with you, but Maniac developed this part of the code first(I think, him and bdmarti were kind of working at it at the same time a while back), and its part of Mania, so I understand most people are more familiar with the slow mechanic. That said, I increased the amount the fort slows, so most units will stop regardless(I think you have to have over 3 movement points, or Commando or be a Mounted unit not to get stopped).

I thought the check for units fortified in cities was already in there... I'll check it out and see if there is an issue with it.. and double check to make sure units in Forts are like-wise visible while in Forts(and Towers).

Cheers!

The problem with forts stopping everyone is that it stops an invading stack from being able to take out the garrison in a direct attack on the fort. I didn't mind it doing damage or being a hinderance to further incursion, but a single goblin shouldn't be able to stop 3 fully promoted wind knight heroes headed straight for the fort. It shouldn't even be able to hold them off for a whole turn in order to call in more reinforcements. If the forts only stopped units already in the zone of control from moving to another adjacent tile it would be fine, but as it is it doesn't give you much of a chance to remove this obstacle. I would also be fine if forts only stopped one passing unit per unit garrisoned, or something like that. If he makes it so that a unit passing uses 2 or 3 movement points, the effect will usually be the same as stopping the unit.

One thing that irritated me enough to make the suggestion was that units don't follow the paths you tell them to; the arrows will show them bypassing the fort's zone of control, but they will try to take a short cut through it anyway. Is there a way to stop this (other than only telling a unit t move 1 tile at a time)?

Thanks for the feedback CV. Well, I compromised on the Forts. I kind of agree with you, but Maniac developed this part of the code first(I think, him and bdmarti were kind of working at it at the same time a while back), and its part of Mania, so I understand most people are more familiar with the slow mechanic. That said, I increased the amount the fort slows, so most units will stop regardless(I think you have to have over 3 movement points, or Commando or be a Mounted unit not to get stopped).

I thought the check for units fortified in cities was already in there... I'll check it out and see if there is an issue with it.. and double check to make sure units in Forts are like-wise visible while in Forts(and Towers).

Cheers!

Commando and mounted bypassing the move restriction would make sense, but still should get the damage "ping" if that's possible.

I should mention I am still on patch D so if you fixed the invisible problem after that, then it's my bad. So hard to keep up with all the patches and mod-mod- patches with 3 games running. So I decided to hold off until patch f updates were available for all the mod-mods before updating, now I see they are so I'll do that tonight!

The problem with forts stopping everyone is that it stops an invading stack from being able to take out the garrison in a direct attack on the fort. I didn't mind it doing damage or being a hinderance to further incursion, but a single goblin shouldn't be able to stop 3 fully promoted wind knight heroes headed straight for the fort. It shouldn't even be able to hold them off for a whole turn in order to call in more reinforcements. If the forts only stopped units already in the zone of control from moving to another adjacent tile it would be fine, but as it is it doesn't give you much of a chance to remove this obstacle. I would also be fine if forts only stopped one passing unit per unit garrisoned, or something like that. If he makes it so that a unit passing uses 2 or 3 movement points, the effect will usually be the same as stopping the unit.

One thing that irritated me enough to make the suggestion was that units don't follow the paths you tell them to; the arrows will show them bypassing the fort's zone of control, but they will try to take a short cut through it anyway. Is there a way to stop this (other than only telling a unit t move 1 tile at a time)?

That pathing problem is annoying. I attacked a city from the tile directly to the right of it, and my unit went up-right diagonal, up-left diagonal, down-left diagonal, and attacked straight down. This not only added in a river-crossing penalty, but left my unit with no movement points to get back to the forested hill he originally attacked from to defend against the counter-attack. And somebody once told me to use the keyboard to move to avoid that, that doesn't work, they still go roundabout ways instead of directly where you want them to go.

I don't think either Blaze or I recommended doing away with the damage from forts. I don't think any type of unit should be immune either to the damage or the movement penalty, but stopping any unit with 7 movement remaining is too much. I wouldn't mind costing 3 movement points, which would leave only properly promoted druids, cavalry, recon, and naval units plus some summons still able to move/attack.

Also, shouldn't forts do damage of the same type as the units garrisoned there? As it is, garrisoning units in forts makes their death/unholy/poison damage useful against passing angels, who would be immune in a direct attack.

Yeah, I like the damage component, and Archer and siege weapons do extra damage if they are garrisoned in the Fort... I am not sure how easy it would be to add the Typed damage component based on unit type in the garrison... I would think one would have to build a rather large if:else block to the code to deal with each damage type eventuality, the cpu time to check this might not be worth it... but maybe. I guess I look at it like, (to follow Magisters example) if an Angel is passing a fortified emplacement, since he is embodied in this world in some way.. a stray arrow or chunk of rock can still injure him... and the fort code includes a check so it can't do max damage. Maybe I should look to add a check so it can't kill a unit no matter what.

The slow is in the latest patch.Sadly, the pathing thing is an AI heavy function, and I am just not to where I want to mess with that sort of thing. Frankly, what I love about the current implementation is that.. what attacking force(with the exception of a fast moving hit-and-run group) would just go around a garrisoned fort, and leave them at their backs... I would think even trained barbarian forces( Orc Axemen for example) wouldn't be that insane... and yet, they do it all the time(in vanilla FfH).

That said, I checked, and for some reason, The code that Mania had to check for the Invisibility promotion wasn't working they way it was intended... for a variety of reasons. I just rewrote that code, and it seems to be working correctly now(the only downfall, is it is located in the onUnitMove function, so it requires a unit to move into a City or Fort, or Tower! fo it to make this check. I am not sure if there is a better fucntion to embed this in without it eating a lot of CPU cycles, but I'll hunt around and see).

Also just added Towers(since they are my Fort "upgrades") to the Fort code and Invisibility fix. And added Cities with Walls! If your city is defended by a wall, it will behave like a fort regarding Damage and Slowed movement... it just seemed to make sense to add it. I considered using this function only if Castles were built, but thought a good Wall would be just as useful to city defenders for a function like this.

going to run a couple more bug test runs before releasing it.. so you might want to hold off on that download a bit CV :)

Cheers!

That said, I checked, and for some reason, The code that Mania had to check for the Invisibility promotion wasn't working they way it was intended...

How do you mean? :confused:

And added Cities with Walls! If your city is defended by a wall, it will behave like a fort regarding Damage and Slowed movement...

Heh I like the idea that cities need walls to slow down opponents.

Hey Maniac, thanks for stopping in.. as per CV's report

except to make my city defenders get pushed out of my cities instead of defending them.

I checked, and that was definitely the case. I'm not sure why.. I looked at the code you were using, and it looked like it should have been valid(but then, it seemed like you used a number of False/True returns to get the correct promotion state.. and frankly, I started getting dizzy tracing it)... but I jsut rewrote it so it was bit more direct in its promotion setting, and it seemed to work fine at that point. I also added Forts and Towers as visibility points.

Yeah, getting Walls to work was kind of a pain(but then I have my code in a seperate file altogether, so I had to get some args imported properly)... but I think worth it...
This is what I added

for iiX in range(iX-1, iX+2, 1):
for iiY in range(iY-1, iY+2, 1):
pCurrentPlot = CyMap().plot(iiX,iiY)
pCity = pPlot.getWorkingCity()
if ((pCity.hasBuilding(gc.getInfoTypeForString('BUILD ING_WALLS')) or pCurrentPlot.getImprovementType() == gc.getInfoTypeForString("IMPROVEMENT_FORT") or pCurrentPlot.getImprovementType() == gc.getInfoTypeForString("IMPROVEMENT_TOWER")) and pCurrentPlot.getNumVisibleEnemyDefenders(pPlayer.g etID()) > 0):


after that I know our codes start to seperate with the slow rates and damage additions...

Cheers!

Ohh, and here is the Code change I made to the Invisibility block
in onUnitMove

pUnit.setHasPromotion(gc.getInfoTypeForString('PRO MOTION_INVISIBLE2'), False)
if pPlot.isOwned():
if (pPlayer.hasTrait(gc.getInfoTypeForString('TRAIT_H IDDEN')) and pPlot.getOwner() == pUnit.getOwner()):
if (pUnit.isHasPromotion(gc.getInfoTypeForString('PRO MOTION_HIDDEN')) and pPlot.getOwner() == pUnit.getOwner()):
pUnit.setHasPromotion(gc.getInfoTypeForString('PRO MOTION_INVISIBLE2'), True)
if (pPlot.getImprovementType() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('IMPROVEMENT_FORT') or pPlot.getImprovementType() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('IMPROVEMENT_TOWER') or pPlot.isCity()):
if (pUnit.isHasPromotion(gc.getInfoTypeForString('PRO MOTION_HIDDEN')) and pPlot.getOwner() == pUnit.getOwner()):
pUnit.setHasPromotion(gc.getInfoTypeForString('PRO MOTION_INVISIBLE2'), False)

I feel like I should be able to streamline it a little bit more... but this works!

Cheers!

Maybe only the base 'physical' strength should be taken into account for fort damage. I can't really see forts doing Holy, Unholy, Death, or Cold damage, although Fire and Poison arrows make sense. I like your idea of units that use ranged weapons doing more damage.

Does the Wall of Stone (the walls created by the earth spell) behave like fort as well?

Maybe castles should also have the slow/damage effect. It would be nice if the stronger defensive building had a greater effect, so cities with both walls and castles could slow and damage the enemy twice as much.

I would also like it if a city built on top of a fort started with walls.

From what I can tell from the code, it sets Damage. It doesn't actually use a doDamage function which might use Typed damage... so, for all intensive purposes, it does "Physical" damage based on total unit Str in the garrison... I suppose that includes the more nebulous damage Types.
Wall of Stone spell does not function as a real wall would, in terms of movement and damage changes. I suppose it could, but just don't feel like it should, you know?
Since you have to have Walls built in a city before you can build a Caslte, they in theory do have the slow/damage effects. I suppose we could add some damage to them, but I think a city with a Castle would have a decent garrison anyway, and likely do a good amount of damage already.. plus you get the defensive bonuses as always.. not sure if it needs a boost.

hhmm.. I kind of like the Idea of building a city on a Fort would give a city Walls... assuming the city was build in the original fortress... which seems more likely than the settlers just ignoring it or plowing it down to make room for their new city... I'll look into that.

::EDIT:: It looks like since Forts are an improvement, it gets cleared before the city is established, so there is no way to read if the plot the city is created on had a Fort on it beforehand, so I'm not sure its possible to grant Walls like this.

Cheers!

What I was trying to say was that, if forts only do "physical" damage, only the "physical" strength of the garrison should count. This was much more of a problem when Bards had +10 damage for 3 different damage types. Your territory could be practically unconquerable if you built a fort on 1 out of every 9 tiles and garrisoned a bard there.

I'm not really sure that walls of stone should do damage either, but then again, my first impression was that the castle was the only building that should do damage. Since walls currently have little use except for be a prerequisite for Castles, and sense they already add to culture and allow certain units to be trained, I guess your way probably fits better in actual gameplay.

I see what your saying now Magister, but I think its just the reverse of trying to impliment special damage types as opposed to excluding them... I'm not sure if the time(cpu)/reward balance is there... and yes, broken units can effect this sort of thing(good news you guys are so on top of me to get these things fixed :) ).

Well, in theory, a Castle could be prepared to use Siege weapons more accurately and at better range, ditto for Archers, than Walls alone, that said, I figured well build City Walls would be just as effective at ranging the enemy as a fortress out "in the wilderness" would be, so it works for me, plus, as agreed, Castles already have several bonuses/abilities built into them.
I'll get patch 7 up in the next few minutes, with the Fort changes/fixes in it and the Invisibility fix.

Cheers!

What I was trying to say was that, if forts only do "physical" damage, only the "physical" strength of the garrison should count. This was much more of a problem when Bards had +10 damage for 3 different damage types. Your territory could be practically unconquerable if you built a fort on 1 out of every 9 tiles and garrisoned a bard there.

I'm not really sure that walls of stone should do damage either, but then again, my first impression was that the castle was the only building that should do damage. Since walls currently have little use except for be a prerequisite for Castles, and sense they already add to culture and allow certain units to be trained, I guess your way probably fits better in actual gameplay.

Aren't bards limited to 3? or am I thinking of something else entirely?

And I don't think castles add culture in FfH, I think thats only in Vanilla Civ4- one of the things I missed.

I checked, and that was definitely the case. I'm not sure why..

He probably didn't turn invisibility off when inside cities.

Bards do 3 damage now, but some horrible typo or copy-paste error at one point made their strength 3, +10 poison, +10 death, +10 fire (I think, I'm not really sure what the 3rd type was)

I was pretty sure they still added culture, but a closer inspection just showed otherwise. Perhaps this should be reintroduced? As they are, castles don't do much for neutral civs.

One problem I noticed- the invisibility doesn't seem to work yet, except to make my city defenders get pushed out of my cities instead of defending them. Grr... It's kind of aggravating having to check it's turned off on my troops after they are built- can you make it so they stay if they are in a city, or at least the invisibility is off while in a city?

He probably didn't turn invisibility off when inside cities.

You're right- that was my original point. That adds a little too much micromanagement. An annoyance, because I have autosaves set to every turn, but I prefer not to have to re-load because I forgot one tiny detail.

Well, I do not play this mods for one reason. That is I think some of the changes proposed by their authors do not fit my idea what to change in FfH. I would really like to see some of those proposed changes in my games but i.e. the fort thing is too much for me.

Now, what would help it would be a conf file [a txt or xml] with flags 1/0 [on/off] for various changes. Just like in HoM&M3 WOG you could chose with modifications include in your game.

Then implement a simple 'if' statement in the major functions[either to do it or skip it]. The only problem would be that you could not change the file till you finish your games or is there a way to save those settings in the save file?

I think a max mod would be the best place to do it but I would wish that the 'vanilla ffh' had such a feature also.

Please, please, pretty please...

Well, thanks for the feedback Valis(I think)... What exactly is your issue with the Forts modifications?

Also, to address your additional comments. I am quite sure that making some features "optional" in a mod situation would be super great. However, I can tell you for certain that its not a matter of a simple if-else statement. There is a reason that it isn't a very common feature.

Cheers!

I just do not like that a terrain improvement deals damage, doesn't fit into the game for me...but that is my, eee? problem?? :) I am looking forward to see the cultural borders for forts with crew ppl are talking about. I hope someone will implement this. Now that is what I expect from forts.

However, I can tell you for certain that its not a matter of a simple if-else statement. There is a reason that it isn't a very common feature.

I am learning python as I type this post :) Maybe some day I will do it my self.

Unfortunately I can only ask for it ;(, if you would be so kind and give me your address so I could use some whipping on you [do not get any naughty thoughts!] then there would be a really nice chance that we will see that option more common. It would really benefit the community, think about that.

;)

_Valis;5336496']I just do not like that a terrain improvement deals damage, doesn't fit into the game for me...but that is my, eee? problem?? :) I am looking forward to see the cultural borders for forts with crew ppl are talking about. I hope someone will implement this. Now that is what I expect from forts.


Have you tried it? I figure the reason for these mod-mods is to see what works and what doesn't so maybe some of the cooler features can make it into the main game sometime. Plus it is interesting that they almost make it a completely different game. I don't like all the changes but I really like others!

Oh another bug I noticed- The "spring" spell keeps changing my deserts into grasslands instead of plains.

Is the f7 patch the most recent? Your update says the f6 will break saves, guess I won't be able to try it yet, don't want to just give up my 6 or so hours invested in my game...

Valis, a note, The Improvement Fort doesn't do damage on its own... it requires that units be "garrisoned" there.
On that note, I noticed that Forts and Towers set on Coasts could attack my Naval vessels as they went by. What does anyone think of that? Should those Improvements not effect seagoing vessels? I don't mind it I think.. it seems like a keep on a coast could assail enemy vessels that passed by... dunno, what do you all think?

Sorry CV, I forgot to add that to the notes. I am not sure what version you are on, and since I forgot to add the notes.. but I think it was fixed in ver 5 or 6. I'll add a not to the update notes now.. better late than never?
Patch 7 includes the version 6 changes, so should be sadly just as breaking to save games.
I am really glad I got myself into this little mess of going public with the tweaks and madness I wanted to toss around in this incredible mod, but sometimes when I realize I spend tons more time rechecking bugs and new features than actually playing... haha, its stunning, but okay, since I am learning quite a bit along the way as well...

On that note, I noticed that Forts and Towers set on Coasts could attack my Naval vessels as they went by. What does anyone think of that? Should those Improvements not effect seagoing vessels?

Following your logic it would be reasonable that after gunpowder is available [blasting powder] they should also affect ships. Historical refference: the role of forts in the north&south war in the history of US [beats me how to translate our name for that war to English]

Hej BlazeRedSXT

First - its a good compilation of various ideas. I am currently playing my first game, to check the balance. I have chosen the fantasy map and up to now it seems like the ffh (fluff wise). I really like the new unit models, but here the credit goes to Maniac and Sureshot.

I must say, that for me there is no problem with forts dealing damage if a unit is present in the fort in general. BUT... I can not find an excuse why it should do it. I mean, it would be ok for catapults or cannons being stationed in a fort, but how come a spearmen unit can do this?

I think the change should be to only allow the units like catapult, trebuchet or cannon to deal damage if stationed in a fort. The same goes for naval units damage. I do not think that adding a specific tech requirement would be necessary as well (forts were used not only in US civil war, but e.g. Constantinople was also guarded by a set of forts and the gulf near by also by a giant chain and as we know the gunpowder technology was not known in Europe in years 500 - 1200, still Constantinoplean forts were able to damage hostile ships passing near by).

_Valis;5339526']Following your logic it would be reasonable that after gunpowder is available [blasting powder] they should also affect ships. Historical refference: the role of forts in the north&south war in the history of US [beats me how to translate our name for that war to English]

You are probably referring to the Civil War.

Valis, to address your point... two things. One: Fantasy World/Game! The idea of realistic values should only be taken so far. (I guess this part addresses Gutus also) That said,(secondly) The Forts do get better with Gunpowder... if you can build a cannon and put it in a fort, it does extra damage because it is a higher unit Str, and the code says it does because its a Siege unit. In this world, gunpowder has some effects, but for the most part, it is only to offset powerful Magic Using Civs... so what about extra damage for Archmages and Firebows? It gets a little complicated, and it may certainly worth a look. Again, it goes back to having to design either a terribly complicated code block, or a large one to deal with eventualities for every potential unit... and as I said earlier, it may be worth it... then again, it may not.
To continue my ramble, mostly for Gutus, the fort code idea was to mirror the concept of Zones of Control, as used in previous Civ games, that allowed units a "free" attack to units that moved into or out of that zoc. Consider those units making a partial attack(sending out a patrol or two from the whole unit) at an incoming enemy, then scurrying back to the Fort before the enemy actually pulled up to the doors of the fort. And, as I mentioned earlier, Archers and Siege Weapons do do damage above and beyond what any other unit type can do.

It seems like the consensus is that the Fort code does need to become more complicated in some ways. I don't really disagree, just have to think about what to start with... and how to do it :)

Cheers!

I disagree- but not for an in-game reason.

I have noticed a large slowdown in game performance relative to "regular" FfH when running your mod. It's not so bad that I stopped playing but there is a good 20-30 second pause while waiting for the computer to do it's turn (on top of the regular turn processing time- where I get to watch all the AI armies scurry around those cities I can see through religious spying). I click on the end-turn button and have to wait that extra time before the cursor even changes to the spinning circle thing. I doubt it's any one change in your mod, but just the sum total of all of them.

Just FYI, I am running this on my laptop- 1.66Ghz Core Duo processor, 1G RAM, 128MB ATI mobility X1300 video- connected to an external monitor 1280X1024 with every single graphical goody turned on and high.

Now I know- a cheapo $700 (last June price) laptop is not going to be top of the line anything, so I don't really mind a slight delay in processing turns. But if a minor change to how points of damage are inflicted out of a fort adds to that processing time, that to me would be worse than just leaving it the way it is.

EDIT: Oh also being a laptop, that means a pokey 5400RPM laptop hard drive... I have been thinking about upgrading- ~$125 to go to 2G RAM and ~$110 for a decent 7200 RPM hard drive, but don't have the $$$ at the moment.

Speaking of performance, yes I am also experiencing this. It is not 30 seconds, more like 5-10, but I have Core2Duo e6400 with 1gig of RAM, running on GF7300 GT and a pretty fast HD on SATA2.

I know that one patch did have some process speed errors... there was a slight incongruity between a couple of the python modules... not bad enough to cause a error, but enough to slow it down during turns while it looked for what was suppose to be there...
I think Gutus's time delays are realistic to what I am seeing on my monster(with its sadly outdated CPU), but since I don't know if Civ4 is capable of multi-threading, I don't know if you are using that full Duo, or just the single cpu at 1.66(and for Gutus 2.2, which is what my processor runs at)...
Anyway, I'll double check with various map sizes and different civs and make sure there isn't something that is going too far over the top with cpu time... but I would expect some extra time over "vanilla" FfH because most of what we out here in mod-land are doing is a little clumsy and heavy on Python processing(as opposed to the geniuses in the FfH team converting things to the SDK and using those sharpened skills for nice clean python codes :) ).

I think when I get a little more comfortable with coding I'll see about improving the fort module(if I can do so with some clean code that doesn't further increase cpu loads). probably not until after .22 is released though. Unless some terrible bug comes along, I'm thinking we are pretty stable here until then... maybe I can finish a game :D

::EDIT:: What do you all think of the changes to Blight prposed here http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=217727 ?

Cheers!

So, I got an easy one I have been thinking about to work, but I 'm not sure if you all will think its a good idea or not: for Sprawling Settlements :
I was able to implement the ability for the Settlements to be able to construct any one, and only one of the 3 basic training buildings(Training yard, Archery Range, or Stables). I always felt a settlement should be able to handle limited "conscripts" to the empires army, and with the -50% production, and no other bonus buildings to apply to it, should be okay. but I am running into trouble with one thing... I can get the buildings built and limited to just one per settlement, but I still can't get them to be capable of building units, and I haven't found where that is being cut off yet.
Any thoughts if I should keep working on this or not? I kind of like the idea...

Cheers!

Going back a little:

One: Fantasy World/Game! The idea of realistic values should only be taken so far.

Fantasy shmantasy, we are still talking about forts and gunpowder that we all know. In FfH they are the same thing as 'here'. Gunpowder is not a black powder that you can find under rocks and you need alchemy to forge a special kind of glass. Combined those two and you get a very unstable butterfly witch explode when they hear a whistle. Nope, the rewelance to 'the real world' in this case must stay, otherwise we could not continue any discussion without specifying some dictionary entries.

The Forts do get better with Gunpowder... if you can build a cannon and put it in a fort

So the forts are better with gunpowder of the canons? I was referring to fort dealing damage on its own. I mearly suggested that they should slow ships down after you have access to gunpowder [Gutus has stated that it is possible for forts to do that without the use of it so I am very curious how it was done] Forts, not the garrison in it!

My perfect fort scenario would look like this:
- forts should give more defence, 50% on clear ground [so it is better to hide in them than to stay in woods], stack with the hill def bonus [forts build on strategical hills, that was their main role in history]
- give healing bonus to your units if it is not in the opponents cultural borders [healing like in cities] {another advantage over the forest}
------------------
those are a must changes, without them forts are useless and illogical

If I were to add anything it would be like that:
- decrease the movement of enemy troops by 1 for every 10 points of strength stationed in the fort [or make it proportional to the stack strength that is passing by, i.e. -1 movement for every 25% from garrison cumulated strength/advancing stack strength {only the attack strength is take under consideration}]
- if there are any siege units in the garrison then make them do some damage to every unit passing by, not to much thoe [and the damage is dealt by the units, not the fort it self]

The last thing is optional IMO. A garrison should be a threat in its self following the rule that even a weak army is a threat by its own existence [for Poles: zasada Krótkiego] You can do two things: The garrison has big defence bonuses so we can just ignore it and go into the enemy territory but then we will have some troops on our backs that can cut of our supply/reinforcements, also if we fail we will have our escape route cut off by those troops. Second way is to take the fort. In this time the enemy will have time to consolidate and maybe come with a rescue force, also we will surely lose some troops or damage them and will have to waste time to heal them to be field fit.
Sun Tzu said that you should not siege cites nor forts and this should be implemented also by the forts mechanics. This is a strategy game if I recall :)

But I do not even play this mod for now so why am I writing this? ^^

PS: A city/settlement build on a fort should have walls build.

I have a few more things to discuss. But first things first...

Blight: The idea proposed by Hawe Hawe are interesting, but I think that blight should not bring fallout upon you. I mean we all know what blight is. I think all of us have heard about great US blights. Blight should bring what it does now - making desert terrains and removing resources at random. Blight is not made because of some pollution rise. I do not see the need for fallout terrain. One thing I would like to see is AI restoring its terrain more often. The problem I have necountered is that AI is not at all terraforming, sometimes having tonnes of not irrigated farms, etc. Maybe blight should also lower the sea levels?

Settlements: Sorry no rose gardens over here :). Currently I have no clue how to change that. I like the idea of it having been able to produce units.

Forts: I think it was clearly stated that a fort is only slowing down units, if garrison is inside. I like the idea of this being related to total strength of units stationed in the fort. If forts will boost healing, then their cost should also be significantly boosted. I also back the idea of boosting the defense bonus. Sorry Valis if I have confused you. Those constatinoplean forts had garrisons inside :P.

One more thing I would like to mention, is again related to Sun Tzu, Sun Pin exactly. It is he, who said, that hilly terrain wins against forests. So maybe its hills who should have +50% defence bonus and forests to have +25% bonus. Sun Pin mentioned clearly that defending in a forest is as much difficult for the defender as it is to attack for the attacker. Your troops get scattered and its harder to command them in forest. You can also not see your enemy coming, nor make any manouvers. Forests should be good only for elves and guerilla units. Dwarves should have a defence penalty in the forests (they do not trust trees :)).

One more thing I would like to mention, is again related to Sun Tzu, Sun Pin exactly. It is he, who said, that hilly terrain wins against forests. So maybe its hills who should have +50% defence bonus and forests to have +25% bonus. Sun Pin mentioned clearly that defending in a forest is as much difficult for the defender as it is to attack for the attacker. Your troops get scattered and its harder to command them in forest. You can also not see your enemy coming, nor make any manouvers. Forests should be good only for elves and guerilla units. Dwarves should have a defence penalty in the forests (they do not trust trees )

A VERY good poit ere :)

_Valis;5343878']Going back a little:

So the forts are better with gunpowder of the canons? I was referring to fort dealing damage on its own. I mearly suggested that they should slow ships down after you have access to gunpowder [Gutus has stated that it is possible for forts to do that without the use of it so I am very curious how it was done] Forts, not the garrison in it!


Have you even tried it yet?

From this paragraph it sounds like you haven't.

The forts do not do any damage on their own, the damage is a function of the strength of troops fortified in them- the "forts doing damage" is just the in-game function used, but it is logically caused by the troops stationed inside.

The game I am trying right now, the only troops I have to man up the forts are werewolves. 1 ravenous werewolf only causes 1 hp of damage. The fort I had 3 blooded and one ravenous actually did (I think) 10 hp. That is not (to me) excessive. It only changed the combat odds a couple percent when my turn to attack came up. I don't have gunpowder and haven't built any siege weapons yet, so I have no idea how much more damage those will cause.

For now the tiny amounts of damage being done haven't really affected the game yet other than to give me an extra couple percent of turning my ravenous werewolves into blooded werewolves. Not that it matters- I get so many ravenous I expect to lose quite a few before they get promoted.

But I do not even play this mod for now so why am I writing this? ^^

This clearly states that I have not tried it out :D I was only asked what I do not like in that concept. The discussion is all about logics, mechanics and alternatives. Yup, the most confusion comes from that it aint clearly described [who deals damage, were is the strength taken from] Now all is clear, thanks from explaining the details.

If it looks like you described then I would say it is good balanced. I will give it a try WHEN I finish my 0.20 games! Damn, those take so long on Huge maps and no time to play.

So, I feel a little silly... it was probably I was working on this Settlement thing too late and just missed something obvious. I found the cannotTrain and canTrain functions... it makes sense... anyway, I realized that adding exceptions to the cannotTrain function would make it huge and unwieldy, so I thought to add exceptions to the canTrain... and that worked.
but unfortunately, I couldn't specific UNITCLASS, only UNIT type... so, any civ that is set to sprawling can only train the basic units there, even if they have unique UNITS normally in place of that UNITCLASS... maybe thats okay, just goes to show they are "conscripted" units from Settlements, instead of the Empires Unique soldiers.

another note, I am considering everything mentioned regarding historic Fort strategies you guys put out there, cool stuff btw... but truthfully, some of those things are in Fact strategies, not something a mechanic should deal with, but a generals decision. Even so, I am thinking of ways to continue to improve the code, and mechanic... though I still doubt it will be out before 22.

In response to Gutus, Fallout is still in the code(the Spell Defile uses it), so thats not so much an issue, but it is an issue if AI doesn't use spells like Sanctify and other plot based spells... it would put them at a bigger dis-advantage. The only thing is, I really don't like the random disappearing resources myself, and it seems like there should be some other secondary penalty, any alternative ideas?
Also, I am interested in the idea about reversing the Hills/Forest defense values. the Idea kind of agrees with me, and Gutus can back up the idea. Opinions?

Cheers!

_Valis;5344109']This clearly states that I have not tried it out :D I was only asked what I do not like in that concept. The discussion is all about logics, mechanics and alternatives. Yup, the most confusion comes from that it aint clearly described [who deals damage, were is the strength taken from] Now all is clear, thanks from explaining the details.

If it looks like you described then I would say it is good balanced. I will give it a try WHEN I finish my 0.20 games! Damn, those take so long on Huge maps and no time to play.

I missed that part!

And I'm still on patch 'd' with 3 huge maps...

Also, I am interested in the idea about reversing the Hills/Forest defense values.

For the early game I think it works nicely as is, I'm constantly debating over a sight bonus or defense bonus to station border patrols. Could you explain your reasoning behind this?

I was able to implement the ability for the Settlements to be able to construct any one, and only one of the 3 basic training buildings

Really excited to see how this works out, opens a whole new ballgame to tinker with :) Is it a one shot deal, or do the other 2 options still list in the build menu? (Build a training yard first, build an archery range later and the yard demos)

CX, glad to see your interest in my little project.