this thread is for discussion of Civics and Charters.

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"Charters" are listed in the first column on the civics screen (F3).

its effect of Charters are described not on the leader trait selection help but in the first column of the civics screen (F3).

each Civ has one of three Charters which cannot be changed during gameplay.

Independent Charter leaders ("Pioneers") have +1 Happiness for every soldier in city and -35% war weariness, and so is the militaristic charter. The downside is the missing research bonus the Scientific Charter leaders receive.

Capitalist Charter leaders have +10% war weariness, and so this is the "war weariness bonus neutral" charter. it has NO unique advantages and so until it is redone such leaders should be avoided. (One way to fix this flaw would be to give Pioneers a -15% research bonus.)

Scientific Charter leaders have -1 Happiness for every soldier in city, +35% war weariness, and +20% research so is the pacificist charter. The downside is the need for short wars and more happiness city improvements to offset city growth.

this post is copied from post 842, page 43, of main SotM mod forum.

my later posts in this thread will try to parse this material for development work.

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the Genetic Screening "special" civic is a must in the current version . . .
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There is no reason for them (the AI) not to use National Emergency (special civic) as often as the rules allow, and so they do.

:/.

I strongly disagree. any civ making repeated use of the National Emergency special civic is not making the proper use of the Genetic Screening special civic.

this makes a huge difference since the latter is NOT time limited in its positive effects. Genetic Screening only produces slightly less than having a National Emergency anyway.

any civ playing the "Normal" special civic is also totally braindead.

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an always available Genetic Screening special civic does create a balance issue since unlike the other special civics it is not time limited.

the Genetic Screening special civic either needs to expire or have a prerequisite tech.

another option (less desirable) would be create another "special" civic that gives unlimited artists or merchants instead.


according to my own strategic analysis, once cities have their pop maxed out, the engineer spec's are then only further useful to create coin or culture (rather than build new units or improvements).


:ninja:

this post is copied from post 867, page 44, of main SotM mod forum.

my later posts in this thread will try to parse this material for development work.

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discussion of Charter civic . . .
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regarding civ's (corporations or agencies which have leaders), the choices of which leader I would want to play are exactly two - either Hera of the Lunar Republic (corp) or Felicia of NASA (agency) since those are the only two leaders who have increased hammer production as two of their three primary civ traits.

these two leaders represent the two of the three possible "Charters," the third civ leader trait - Independent Charter (Hera) and Scientific Charter (Felicity). ("Pioneers" are all apparently Independent in their civ Charter.) there currently is no SotM leader with the double hammer bonus and the Capitalist Charter.

a description of the third (Charter) civ trait that has eluded other posters on this board since its effects are described not on the leader trait selection help but in the first column of the civics screen (F3).

since an option to change to one of the other two Charter civ traits does NOT appear as the game progresses it should not be listed on the civics screen (F3) at all but rather as a civ trait that is described in the leader section of the Civilopedia and at the start of the ("Play Now") game when leaders traits are listed. (neither of these Charter civ trait descriptions is currently implemented).

Independent Charter leaders ("Pioneers") have +1 Happiness for every soldier in city and -35% war weariness, and so is the militaristic charter. The downside is the missing research bonus the Scientific Charter leaders receive.

Capitalist Charter leaders have +10% war weariness, and so this is the "war weariness bonus neutral" charter. it has NO unique advantages and so until it is redone such leaders should be avoided. (One way to fix this flaw would be to give Pioneers a -15% research bonus.)

Scientific Charter leaders have -1 Happiness for every soldier in city, +35% war weariness, and +20% research so is the pacificist charter. The downside is the need for short wars and more happiness city improvements to offset city growth.

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my suggestion is to redo the three possible civ traits so that two hammer addition bonuses are not possible and to add more leaders to achieve a greater variety of traits.

the "Capitalist Charter" needs to be redone so that has some bonus (see above).

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newcomers may be wondering why my emphasis on hammers.

as the game is currently structured getting all four of the national wonders helps immensely, particularly the Fungus and Military Academy. having city health or GPP's are much less important to building up a strong civ.

depending on the amount of dust sea in the game another civ trait that would be at the top of the list of being useful is a mare-navigator trait similar to the Seafaring trait in Civ 3. :ninja:

this post is copied from post 878, page 44, of main SotM mod forum.

my later posts in this thread will try to parse this material for development work.

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http://forums.civfanatics.com/images/icons/icon2.gif nice to know someone else is playtesting this mod . . .

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#4. Civics ~ great ideas. bad balance and overly complicated. If a civic is so strong it warrants a half dozen negative modifiers to balance it, perhaps the positive modifiers should be scaled back a fair bit. Its really tough to advise exactly WHAT is out of balance here, since there were so many different elements on each and every civic, but while playing I simply found the %'s provided for any one area were huge and easy to stack. Sure there may have been a cost, but these costs seemed insignificant and confusing as !@$%. Please consider removing several of the recurring negative penalties, and reduce the bonusses to compensate. While I like the idea of imposing penalties, Vanilla shows that they arent necessary, especially if the choices are expanded so that more "potential bonusses" are sacrificed.



I also found all the negative bonuses to be quite confusing.

in practice I periodically did "what if's" to see which Civics were actually better at a given point in the game.



the Genetic Screening "special civic" is a must for play from turn number one, and currently too powerful.

any civ not adopting GS on turn one will soon fall irrepably behind civs that do adopt it.

unlike the other "special civics" GS is not time limited in duration.

I was originally lured in by the National Emergency "special civic" on turn one, but was burned when I kept it on beyond its intended duration. even so, once I adopted GS I rapidly was able to catch up with the other civs.

my current thought is if GS is to be kept with out a finite duration before it burns you (as is the case with the other "special civics"), GS should come in at least two flavors

1) unlimited eng specialists (current version) and

2) unlimited artist or merchant specialists (not currently a "special civic").

other GS flavors such as unlimited scientist or great general specialists would also be interesting to test.

this post is copied from post 876, page 44, of main SotM mod forum.

my later posts in this thread will try to parse this material for development work.

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untitled post by White Rabbit
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Just wanted to offer a suggestion to the SoM team in response to point 4 by Rashad.

I haven't played this mod and have limited experience with modified civics. So, now that we've esteblished that I am completely unqualified to make the following suggestion I will make it anyway :D

When designing civics it might be a good idea to start small, as it were. Meaning, use only few modifiers, positive or negative. Civics are very hard to balance because they affect the game differently depending on other factors, such as religion or tech progress. In addition of course, there are many possible civics combinations making the task even more difficult.

So, it might be advantageous to look at each civic and decide what is its primary idea, goal or theme and, at first, only implement those modifiers that directly (and clearly) promote that. Later on, once the civics feel good and balanced, start adding the "flavor" modifiers - the ones that flesh out the ideas behind the civics even further and "widen" their effects to areas of the game that might not directly relate to the civic in question. This should make balancing easier as it will be a gradual process.

Anyway, just a thought I had on the issue and if you already figured this out, or you're taking a different approach, feel free to ignore it. :)

This post makes sense. Start small and only add civics as a need arises. We don't need 5 columns of 5 each if there's no need.

This post makes sense. Start small and only add civics as a need arises. We don't need 5 columns of 5 each if there's no need.

I think White Rabbit was on to something.

The current state of the Civics options is a mess. He was suggesting to start slow and see how each addition affected the others.

this post is copied from post 879, page 44, of main SotM mod forum.

my later posts in this thread will try to parse this material for development work.

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http://forums.civfanatics.com/images/icons/icon2.gifuntitled post by Rashad . . .

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This was Rashad's reply to my comments regarding the Genetic Screening civic -



i noticed the same things you did, although i think it merely reflects a failure of the current civic selection then anything else.

I was completely confused by the various emergency civics and never bothered to check if i could even use them as they didnt seem to be worthwhile and the time-burn concerned me. (ie.. if im gonna experience 2-3 turns of downtime from revolution... i should REALLY benefit from these 4-5 turns of a civic).

i think genetic screening could work best if the WHOLE emergency civic branch was treated as a "temporary/reactionary" civic branch, and suffered from the same sort of penalties. (perhaps +1 unhappiness cumulatively each turn after 5 or 10). genetic screening also needs a tech prereq, and greater diversity in the other "wartime" techs could be beneficial.

from post 881, page 45, by Rashad -

Perhaps the Genetic Screening concept is more deserving of a civic branch than of an individual civic ?

Lets say you decide to rethink that whole civic branch... instead of some being temporary and some being permanent... they could all be temporary. ie... citizens could be genetically and psychologically screened and "treated" to conform to the ideals of the civilization... focussing the citizens on production, military, health, happiness... whatever... this would provide the "state of emergency" responses that you were looking for, i believe... but also diminishes the strength of GS by spreading it out.

I'd say we need to rethink every column, that's fine by me. I can easily XML it up if we come up with new or improved choices.

Idea - government civics:

Pioneer/Emergent (first government civic, inefficient compared to others, but not BAD either.) +50% maintenance cost from "palace" distance cost., +1 happy in first 6 cities the civ founds. "This is the first option you have for governing your people. Whether you are a charismatic leader seeking to escape the persecution of people on Earth, or your people are governed by a corporate board seeking to monopolize the Moon's hidden resources, it is the government you begin with."

Totalitarian State (requires some tech that'd point away from interacting with Earth): -1 happy per city, +1 happy if a military unit is in city, +2 free units per city, -1 diplo ratings with other civs. "You have finally liberated your people from the oppressive yoke of the inept rulers of the past, heeding your clarion call to arms and freedom. Little did they know you had no desire to listen to them, or help them in any fashion, seeking only the power of the throne, so to speak. Also, your ever-so-charming personality seems to have alienated the other civilizations of the Moon from you."

Communal (requires some tech which has an environmentalist/"don't let Earth happen again" flavor to it.) +1 health from whatever would seem appropriate for the nearest thing to agriculture in a vacuum, +1 happy in cities smaller than 6, -5 to -10% income, -1 happy per military unit in cities. "At long last the people have come to see the wisdom of living in harmony with the Moon and themselves, even if this means an overall reduction in material wealth. They have been harmed too much by the previous administration and so need a gentle hand to guide them, not the (futuristic armor) heel of military oppression."

Cybernetic Democracy (OK, this is pretty much stolen from CtPII and/or Deus Ex: Invisible War) (requires an advanced cybernetics tech) +2 happy in cities above population 12, +1 health in all cities, +2% to wealth, food, industry, and research generation, +1 free specialists in all cities, -4 diplo to all civs which are not implementing this civic. "At long last your civilization has transcended the boundaries of time-delayed communications, and a means to aid all in your great nation has presented itself. No longer shall there be needless waste, a shortage of skilled labor, nor an idea rejected without first being heard and archived. Unfortunately, the other peoples of the Moon who have not yet achieved our level of transcendence will view us as "abominations" or "elitist."

Just some ideas should civics get a change.

Every civic and column needs a change. I basically put these down in the first week of modding and expected them to get tweaked. They never did to my knowledge.

Anyone who wants to tackle them can. Any type of change won't be rebuked if it has merit. # of columns, # of civics, ect.

How does everyone feel about the SPECIAL column? I never really thought anything about it and now I'd like to use for Ideologies instead.

Never one for patience...I swapped out the Special Civics for now. :D

Now to completely rework and balance the existing ones. :wallbash:

:lol:
You've done it yourself. Only yourself to blame thus. :p

I honestly have never switched civics while playing this mod so I have very little grasp on what's an issue.

Tonight I'm going to pay attention.

I recommend a complete overhaul. Currently, it is too complicated and confusing.

I like the idea of Charter Civics, but they might go if they don't cause python issues.

We now have a Ideology column as well.

What else do we really need?

Currently we have:

Government
Foreign
Social
Economy
Legal

Economy I can see staying, Government and Foreign seem redundant. Legal and Social can likely be combined as well.

Any thoughts on this?

After looking through the Civics XML I can say that Foreign is gone. It serves no purpose. Government is staying, but it will be tweaked. Social and Legal will be combined or maybe one will be eliminated. They're next on the chopping block.

Ugh. Legal simply sucks. Social isn't much better. :wallbash:

So far we have:

Charter - why your faction is there
Government - how you treat your people
Economy - how you run your economy
Ideology - how you live your life on the Moon

What's the fifth column or is four good enough? What part of the game isn't being addressed?

Charter didn't offer much choice as it is: you're or scientific, or corporative, and I forget the last one.
But there's of course room to add the Independency Charter. :)

Ideology and Charter must be carefully looked at, they run over one another a bit (as I proposed it at least). But the same counts for Government.

If you remove legal and social outright, I can't think of something that can replace them. Education perhaps?

They all start overlapping which sucks. Maybe having each civic have less bonuses will make them seem less redundant.

Education is always a good fallback.

The bad news about religion based civics is that it is python controlled. The good news is that Kael said it was easy python. I'm going to look at his code and put this into SotM. :D

I think it might actually be in game and working. :wow:

I'm going to do what we mentioned yesterday Geo and tie the six religions to starter techs and give every civ a chance at founding one. And then I'll see if I've blocked the civics from being used.

6 per column is fine, but with 6 religions plus a default equals seven which is why I split them into 2 separate columns. I'm open to ways to pretty it up.

I need to ask Kael one more question...

Well, this is what a little cut&paste gives me.
So it seems possible?

Fine by me. You'll have to ask AA what to do with font size and 5 columns. I don't think the default civics screen will work with 7 civics.

I don't think the default civics screen will work with 7 civics.

Sorry, what do you mean by this? You mean graphically or codewise?

graphically, not without changing the font size or the blue box size.

Heres is a list for possible education civics.

BASIC-----No upkeep

Explorer---10% science beakers bonus allows 1 programmer spec. low uk

TECH 1----15% science beakers bonus allows 1 lecture low uk

TECH 2----20% science beakers bonus allows 1 lecture ++1 programer spec.

Enlightenment---20% science beakers 2 lectures/1 programer spec.--Much improved chance for Great Scientist--medium upkeep

Dimensional Arts---25% bonus science beakers Unlimited Lectures--Much improved chance for Great AIs--high upkeep


What Im going for is education to mostly help science and to lesser degree growth, leaving money, religion, culture, military to the other civics. That way the education civic will center and cover the science spectrum with clear upgrade path and leave the other civics plenty to cover.

The exact tech that leads to each level can be debated, Im not that clear on all the techs in the tree yet. Hope this helps as a starting point.

Erm, my above pic is the blue box you created. I simply copied the Communism word plus the interval space with Fascism and pasted it below Democracy. :confused:

Erm, my above pic is the blue box you created. I simply copied the Communism word plus the interval space with Fascism and pasted it below Democracy. :confused:

I used some changes AA gave me so the blue got extended I guess. How many columns did you have? I think the text will get bigger automatically if you remove the 6th column, maybe. This is all Greek to me.

Woodelf, for the record, I took that screenshot from your work. The 0.24 version you uploaded for us yesterday. I simply copy/pasted part of the pic in a picture editor to show what I mean. I changed nothing whatsoever on the code.

:lol:

I understand Geo. I'm going to move these threads to the screens area or civics. :p

All I'm saying is that I don't know how the font size will react to removing the 6th column. It might expand so now the 7 choices don't fit inside the blue box. With six columns it squeezes in nicely, but with five the game might stretch the text out. No big deal and easy to check. :D

the text dosn't change automatically, it's set in the python file.
I would recomend just leaving it at 6 columns and space for plenty of options on each catagory untill the civic system is finalized. then the screen can be pollished for precicely that amount of civics.

Thanks AA for clearing that up. Geo and I speak different languages at times. ;)

I tryed out the new version of SotM today and to tell the truth, I still found the civics options to be horribly confusing. Way too much going on for every option, no sence of cohesion.

So I thought I would propose an entierly new, simpler system. So what do you guys think of this quick sketch of civics?


Charter: - Each nation starts with one - all are available from the start but should be expensive somehow to switch between them.

Survival - for those fleeing earth.
no effects

Scientific for scientific agencys
+science

Mining Profits - for coperations
build improvements faster
+1 gold from Vapor mines

National Security -for governments
+military production



Labor:

Open Labor -default
Reduced city maintanence cost.

Servile
gold rushing allowed

Socialized - requires universal socialism state ideology
+1 Happy in every city with universal socialism

Robotic Labor -requires some early tech
+1 Unhappy in every city
Free Robot Specialist +4 production, no GPP

Engineered Castes - requires some tech and science first state ideology
unlimited specialists




Government: - opened up with Isolation or with lunar independancy state ideology

Vassle -default govt, you answer to your superiors back on earth.
- to city maintenance costs

Despotism
+production

Democracy
+Happyness in larger citys

Meritocracy
+ GP generation
+ science

Military Government
drafting allowed
+2 xp on new units





Economy:

Export Economy -default until isolation, then not allowed
+1 trade route per city

Basic - allowed initially as well
+50% gold in capital

Mechantilism -requires isolation event and Corporate Mercantilism state ideology
no forign trade routes
+1 production from every specialist

Free market -requires isolation event
+2 trade routes

Bureaucratic - requires Bureaucratic Communism State ideology
high upkeep
+2 production + 2 gold in every city with state ideology
+1 unhappy for every non-state ideology present.

Energy Currency -requires some tech
solar collectors +2 gold
+15% gold



MoonSong: - powerfull late game civics options

None - default

Exploit requires industrial capitalism state ideology
gives +2 habitation (health) every city
+30% production

Protect
+1 happy for every 'craters' feature (forests) in city radius
the aliens will not attack you.

Terraform
Requires great project
Converts moon to earth-like terrain gradually
this greatly increases food production on the tiles

I'm all for an overhaul. I just ask that we have some State Religion only civics. :)

You will note that there are state ideology restricted civics noted in the writeup I posted.

I could have noted that had I paid attention. :blush: :p

AA - Did you want to XML this up or do you want me to?

Sure, I can whip up the XML. You said you'd talked to Kael abut making religion specific civics, so would you like to do that part of it?

Charter: - Each nation starts with one - all are available from the start but should be expensive somehow to switch between them.

Survival - for those fleeing earth.
no effects

Scientific for scientific agencys
+science

Mining Profits - for coperations
build improvements faster
+1 gold from Vapor mines

National Security -for governments
+military production

I suggest to rename Mining Profits and National Security to Industrial and Military. Mixes batter with "Charter". Also, I would keep the Pioneer Charter ingame. There's always the possibility that a group of people settle this new land independent from any government and go their own way. Survival doesn't fit this kind of people. I think +25% beakers is good enough for the Scientific Charter. For Industrial, what the heck is a Vapor Mine? :confused: But the idea to give mines +1 gold/commerce is not bad, especially if He³ extraction would become a side-product of ore-extracting. For Military, I wouldn't give quicker military production, but +2 xp for constructed units. To simulate they are soldiers arriving/trained on the Moon, no civilians.
O yes, the survival effect could be +1 :) . They are happy to have left the ravages of Earth. :D


Labor:

Open Labor -default
Reduced city maintanence cost.

Servile
gold rushing allowed

Socialized - requires universal socialism state ideology
+1 Happy in every city with universal socialism

Robotic Labor -requires some early tech
+1 Unhappy in every city
Free Robot Specialist +4 production, no GPP

Engineered Castes - requires some tech and science first state ideology
unlimited specialists

Servile looks too strong. I think a negative modifier should be included, but +1 :mad: doesn't seem to do the trick.

The Robotic Labor could be linked with Telemetric Operations (a BtS tech I came up with), which is an X3 tech in this techtree. In the current version (0.24) only Automation comes to mind.

Engineered Castes: good find, and I suggest a Gene-modifying tech as a prerequisite for this one.

Government: - opened up with Isolation or with lunar independancy state ideology

Vassle -default govt, you answer to your superiors back on earth.
- to city maintenance costs

Despotism
+production

Democracy
+Happyness in larger citys

Meritocracy
+ GP generation
+ science

Military Government
drafting allowed
+2 xp on new units

Let's rename "vassal" to "Mission Command". Sounds less medieval. ;)
And no maintenance costs at all for this civic! The home-civ pays it all! :lol:

Despotism... how about Subjugation? And let it whip populace to death for production + give +1 :) for every military troops in a base. Slavery at its utmost. :D

Democracy... fair enough. Extra commerce/gold in the largest cities too perhaps? To give it a bit of a boost compared to the other Government civics?

Meritocracy... no comment. Looks balanced enough.

Militarism... let's give it drafted + double military production instead of the +2 xp. It's not like soldiers will be trained well but be prepared for the cannonflesh part the soonest.

Before I forget to ask again: Woodelf, or anybody else, isn't it possible to let Civics invoke city facilities to give +1 :food:, +1 :hammers: or +1 :gold: instead of land improvements? This because I noticed the Bureaucratic Communism Ideology gives +1 :food: to improvements instead of base facilities as I proposed...

Before I forget to ask again: Woodelf, or anybody else, isn't it possible to let Civics invoke city facilities to give +1 :food:, +1 :hammers: or +1 :gold: instead of land improvements? This because I noticed the Bureaucratic Communism Ideology gives +1 :food: to improvements instead of base facilities as I proposed...

Let me look, good question.

Sure, I can whip up the XML. You said you'd talked to Kael abut making religion specific civics, so would you like to do that part of it?

It's in python right now so if you keep the old CIVIC tags we'll be fine. We can redo text later. Or if you change the tags I can edit the python. Either way I can fix whatever you do in XML.

Thanks AA.

Let me look, good question.

The main reason is that city facilities have a fixed amount, while with food-producing improvements this might be too strong. In this mod glasshouses can be literally put everywhere within the citycross.

I know traits can add bonuses to buildings. I assume civics can as well.

I suggest to rename Mining Profits and National Security to Industrial and Military. Mixes batter with "Charter". Also, I would keep the Pioneer Charter ingame. There's always the possibility that a group of people settle this new land independent from any government and go their own way. Survival doesn't fit this kind of people. I think +25% beakers is good enough for the Scientific Charter. For Industrial, what the heck is a Vapor Mine? :confused: But the idea to give mines +1 gold/commerce is not bad, especially if He³ extraction would become a side-product of ore-extracting. For Military, I wouldn't give quicker military production, but +2 xp for constructed units. To simulate they are soldiers arriving/trained on the Moon, no civilians.
O yes, the survival effect could be +1 :) . They are happy to have left the ravages of Earth. :D

Renaming those charters sounds fine.
I'd only want to include a pioneer charter if we have any civs that are actually here for that reason. I'm not sure if we do, but it would be nice to have one wouldn't it? I'll add that charter.
I think that +25% research would be way too much 15% is better.
Vapor mines would be mines designed to extract a material that is found in the vapor state at available conditions when purified. He3 would be one such thing, as would be oxygen or hydrogen mines. This would be different then mines for things such as iron or titanium, as it would require entierly different mining techniques.
I like your change to the millitary charter as well.


Servile looks too strong. I think a negative modifier should be included, but +1 :mad: doesn't seem to do the trick.

The Robotic Labor could be linked with Telemetric Operations (a BtS tech I came up with), which is an X3 tech in this techtree. In the current version (0.24) only Automation comes to mind.

Engineered Castes: good find, and I suggest a Gene-modifying tech as a prerequisite for this one.


I don't think servile would be too strong, we can always make the cost a little bit higher for the rushing if we find it to be though.


Let's rename "vassal" to "Mission Command". Sounds less medieval. ;)
And no maintenance costs at all for this civic! The home-civ pays it all! :lol:

Despotism... how about Subjugation? And let it whip populace to death for production + give +1 :) for every military troops in a base. Slavery at its utmost. :D

Democracy... fair enough. Extra commerce/gold in the largest cities too perhaps? To give it a bit of a boost compared to the other Government civics?

Meritocracy... no comment. Looks balanced enough.

Militarism... let's give it drafted + double military production instead of the +2 xp. It's not like soldiers will be trained well but be prepared for the cannonflesh part the soonest.


Mission command, much better name.
In my opinion either of population whipping or happys for millitary is unballanced enough by itself, together they would be unstoppable.
How about pop rushing allowed, high upkeep?
I agree that + millitary production might be good enstead of xp, especially with the opposite change in the millitary charter. How about a more meager +25% to start with?

Renaming those charters sounds fine.
I'd only want to include a pioneer charter if we have any civs that are actually here for that reason. I'm not sure if we do, but it would be nice to have one wouldn't it? I'll add that charter.

Cool. 't Can always be removed if no pioneer faction sees the light.

I think that +25% research would be way too much 15% is better.

As you wish, playtesting will give us the balance answer.

Vapor mines would be mines designed to extract a material that is found in the vapor state at available conditions when purified. He3 would be one such thing, as would be oxygen or hydrogen mines. This would be different then mines for things such as iron or titanium, as it would require entierly different mining techniques.

Okay, I follow you on this one.

I don't think servile would be too strong, we can always make the cost a little bit higher for the rushing if we find it to be though.

Okay.

Mission command, much better name.
In my opinion either of population whipping or happys for millitary is unballanced enough by itself, together they would be unstoppable.
How about pop rushing allowed, high upkeep?
I agree that + millitary production might be good enstead of xp, especially with the opposite change in the millitary charter. How about a more meager +25% to start with?

For the whipping: remember that food production on the moon will be low for quite some time. It will take longer to establish a big enough population every time. And perhaps we could put a +1 :mad: in EVERY city of this faction every time a pop unit is whipped. This would make it a real thinktank effort to pull whipping of. So the extra happiness from military troops might be necesary to quel revolts in all your cities.
For the military production, +25% production is fine by me.

Here's the files I modified to add the new civics.
I didn't update the leaderhead files with new favorite civics, because I don't really know what they leaders are supposed to like.
I also havn't linked buttons to the civics, so they all have the same one for the moment.

Thanks AA. Favorite civics were very bland before. Will I need to redo the default and anarchy civics?

I'll find out in a minute anyhow... :)

i did that already, should be in the zip

Loading it now. :)

A few errors from that damned favorite civics tag, but the rest is good. :)

There are tons of buttons already in the mod so I'll link some up.

I tied in four of the State Religions, but another requires a Moonsong civic (unfinished) and then we need something for Industrial Capitalism.

Super job AA.

Two questions:

Do we want civs to be able to switch Charter civics?

And if not, how do we prevent it?

I would say yes, allow switching of starter civics, but make it difficult. In the files I posted the charter civics all have anarchy settings of 10, (7 turns on normal speed) so it is a substantial thing to do.

If we want them unchangeable, set them as desired in the civilizations xml and make them all require the tech 'Never' to switch to. Also make a tech 'never' that you can never get.

I agree, but my concern is the AI. I hope that they simply wouldn't switch charter civics time and again. Maybe the ones they start with should be the favorite civics?

If we do that the computer will constantly ask the player to switch to them.

Could we just block to AI from switching?

I don't think unchangeable civics are very intuitive in Civ4. the abilitys should be bound to leaders or nations if they can't change.

Ick, catch-22 there. Boy that would be annoying...

Only the charter civicoption is very solid. I will do that first !
You know, the ideologies sounds like governments type. Maybe, there is a strong tie here. I will also propose a civic system if you don't mind.

I have already one :

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/105110/CivicSotM1.png

dont know for which it can be used ...

Lunar Independency?

I'm back and I've made market shares with the moon :

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/105110/Sharemoon.png

I'm back and I've made market shares with the moon :

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/105110/Sharemoon.png

Perfect! :lol:

Heh, very cool snipper.

Today's pic :

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/105110/Civic4.png

Mt. Eternal Light on the southpole? :mischief:

AA- Do you want me to add these in?

MoonSong: - powerfull late game civics options

None - default

Exploit requires industrial capitalism state ideology
gives +2 habitation (health) every city
+30% production

Protect
+1 happy for every 'craters' feature (forests) in city radius
the aliens will not attack you.

Terraform
Requires great project
Converts moon to earth-like terrain gradually
this greatly increases food production on the tiles

I noticed you didn't put them in. Do you not like them because they sound good enough to me for now.

I didn't implement them because they aren't really very easy to implement.
since there isn't a craters feature or any aliens yet protect doesn't do much, and the terraform civic would take a lot of thought and programing to accomplish. So Exploit is really the only one implementable.
I guess that wouldn't be too bad though, since only industrial capitalism can use it. You could implement them as far as you can if you'd like, I just didn't think they'd be balanced yet.

Ugh, I forgot about the whole balance issue. I guess I'll have to figure out if they should go in as placeholders or not.

There's something in the download section !

They're gorgeous, Snipper. :cooool:

I haven't take time to put a name for each one. Maybe you and the ones who know the mod more than me can do that. And thanks for the compliment.

They look awesome. I'll come up with a use for each! :thumbsup:

When done, can you provide me with a list for the missing civics you need to be fullfiled with an icon ?

Yup, no problem.

I'm definitely going to use those buttons for something snipper, but I don't know if it's for civics. I love the lunar look, but they don't speak civics to me. The style is perfect for something, but I need to find out what that is.

Use them for the best, it doesn't matter for me where they go !

Mmm, which are the civics in use atm? Kinda forgot about it. :o

I think I need to upload a v24B internal copy so we don't get too far ahead of ourselves. :)