Hi everyone,

I am so pleased everyone is enjoying BetterAI.

Unfortunately, I am extremely busy with a new job, so I have almost zero free time. I still intend to get back to BetterAI, if/when I have some free time to devote to it.

I am actively seeking someone who can devote time to doing the last few bugfixes, and other tasks. If you are a C++ programmer with Visual Studio 2003 (paid version), and hopefully some experience looking at the SDK, contact me to get added to the sourceforge project (you will need to register on sourceforge if you have not already).

I appreciate all the feedback and I wish I had more time to devote to this project, but I do not at this time.

-Iustus

There is nothing better than an update to quell the speculation. Thanks.

Well, clearly we can see you're busy with a new job, but what we're wondering is: what is the new job?!? Is it working on BTS? :mischief:

Hi everyone,

I am so pleased everyone is enjoying BetterAI.

Unfortunately, I am extremely busy with a new job, so I have almost zero free time. I still intend to get back to BetterAI, if/when I have some free time to devote to it.

I am actively seeking someone who can devote time to doing the last few bugfixes, and other tasks. If you are a C++ programmer with Visual Studio 2003 (paid version), and hopefully some experience looking at the SDK, contact me to get added to the sourceforge project (you will need to register on sourceforge if you have not already).

I appreciate all the feedback and I wish I had more time to devote to this project, but I do not at this time.

-Iustus

They are totally working on BTS!

I wouldn't be too sure. In that case it would be pretty pointless to update Better AI since the new AI would be in BTS anyway.

I wouldn't be too sure. In that case it would be pretty pointless to update Better AI since the new AI would be in BTS anyway.

That's not true. Better AI improves Vanilla and Warlords AI, but BTS will only improve BTS AI.

They are totally working on BTS!

Got to be. If they weren't they'd have said so.

Got to be. If they weren't they'd have said so.

Yeah, and they're probably gay. If they weren't they'd have said so. :rolleyes:

I wouldn't be too sure. In that case it would be pretty pointless to update Better AI since the new AI would be in BTS anyway.

Not exactly. Once BTS is released and IF it includes "Better AI", "Better AI" can at this point only be improved further through official patches and after a while we won't get any more of those even if needed :cry: .

So after BTS is released (maybe after one or some BTS patches) there will be no more improvement on the AI, official improvement that is. I would be very very very....very surprised if the AI was "perfect" at this point (it won't be :mischief: ) without things that still could and should be improved. Here is where we once again return to the unofficial Better AI so the improvements on AI can keep coming after Firaxis leaves us screaming for more shutting down the Civ IV office and starts working on Civ V :cry: .

So. Even IF "Better AI" is in BTS there will still be further improvements to be made to the AI after this. Especially after the masses starts using the new AI and discovers the inevitable flaws and AI loopholes. So once again the mighty "Better AI" Team will be our saviours and we shall give them the credits they deserve for spoiling us! Hail the kings :king:

Ofcourse. This is only IF "Better AI" is actually in BTS. IF it is not, "Better AI" will reign even more supreme after the BTS release as long as the "Better AI" Team wants to and got the time to continue to reign supreme. :D

Once again, hail the Better AI Team! :goodjob: :blush:

My new job does not involve either BetterAI or Civilization in any fashion, let me put those rumors to rest. As I said, if/when I have time, I plan to get back into BetterAI, but I would also like to find someone willing to take it on in the meantime.

-Iustus

Well that killed all our fun. :(

How about Blake. Is he still working on it?

How about Blake. Is he still working on it?

My bet is that Blake is working on BTS. While Iustus informed us about what was going on in his life... Blake suddenly stopped to post in this forum some time ago (but was still seen on-line lurking on many occasions). If Blake is working on BTS... Iustus certainly would know that.. but I doubt he could tell it.

Well it was my bet that Iustus was working on BtS too, but apparently not... unless of course Blake is busy with BtS, it prevents Iustus from working on Better AI properly and so has put it on hold or something. But I am now questioning whether Blake is actually working on BtS. Hope he is though. If not, I suspect the Better AI mod is dead in the water.

Well, that's disappointing... I hope to God Blake is working on BTS then because I don't want to return to an AI that is too stupid to move units to their cities when they're about to get taken. If I find out Blake is not working on BTS, I may have to strongly consider not getting it. I'll at least wait to see what initial reactions are to the AI's supposed 'improvements.'

Why wouldn't Firaxis include this in BTS? its basicaly freecode thats handed over to them thats been shown to make a massive improvement. As well as that, occasional including fan-based products is the best way to stimulate the modder community, which increase the longlevity of the game.

Well, Firaxis has consistantly demonstrated a conservative approach when it comes to civ 4 and Better AI isn't conservative.

The problem is that many of the non-civ fanatics don't understand how stupid the computer is... There are still people who have trouble on Warlord or Noble without the Better AI, just because they don't understand how to specialize their cities or how to take a prop\per offensive...

Is Iustus and Blake's AI the same Better AI ? I understand that there is one Better AI created by Iustus and Blake ( not two seperate mods )? Am I right ?

Is Iustus and Blake's AI the same Better AI ? I understand that there is one Better AI created by Iustus and Blake ( not two seperate mods )? Am I right ?

You are right - Iustus and Blake are the developers of the BetterAI mod, unfortunately both are currently inactive :sad:

Well, that's disappointing... I hope to God Blake is working on BTS then because I don't want to return to an AI that is too stupid to move units to their cities when they're about to get taken. If I find out Blake is not working on BTS, I may have to strongly consider not getting it. I'll at least wait to see what initial reactions are to the AI's supposed 'improvements.'

Interesting. My observation is that the Better AI is too passive, to the point that it is unable to respond effectively to invasions. Other people have this problem, too -- see the questionable behavior thread [about 10 pages long...] or the latest version thread.

The BetterAI seems to do well pursuing other victory types, but this will be included in BtS. Aside from this, I don't see many benefits to BetterAI -- it makes the AI far too passive, and has several bugs. My hope is that, if Blake is working on BtS, that they test it a lot better than BetterAI has been tested...

The BetterAI seems to do well pursuing other victory types, but this will be included in BtS. Aside from this, I don't see many benefits to BetterAI -- it makes the AI far too passive, and has several bugs. My hope is that, if Blake is working on BtS, that they test it a lot better than BetterAI has been tested...

I think you're being somewhat unfair. There has been a lot of testing by users here but it's quite difficult to make a balanced mod.

There was a major bug earlier where everyone was complaining the AI was far too aggressive. Until the bug was found Blake and Iustus were trying to moderate this aggressiveness. However I suspect that they didn't get a chance to remove all the moderating parts when that major bug was fixed.

Well, whatever the reason, the AI is considerably inferior to stock Warlords 2.08.

I handed over the BetterAI to the stock AI, and what a difference it made. Within 10 turns Bismarck declared war on me, landed a stack of 6 cavalry by a coastal city. Simultaneously, he brought in trebuchets from the north in a stack with cavalry to take some of my other cities.

He hasn't succeeded yet, he's still trying to wear down the defenses, and he might come up short. But it sure beats a snoozefest for the whole game.

Bismarck's' tactics seem fine, too.

Stop saying stupid things, please. The warlords 2.08 AI included big parts of Blake and Iustus' BetterAI, that's why it's a good AI. Firaxis told it in the release notes.

Then Blake and Iustus tried to improve it in many ways and published several newer versions. It's an unfinished work so yes you'll like some of these versions and hate some other ones.

I suggest you use the 1/30 version, which is, if I remember correctly, is the most agressive one. You will have many nice wars with this one.

The latest versions are known to be much more passive, so if you want to use it, please use the 'Agressive AI' setting.

http://sourceforge.net/projects/civ4betterai/

That's the build that's totally broken and has dozens of needless wars..where Iustus said the AI declares war 95% of the time instead of 5%...

not much of a solution...

aggressive AI does similar thing - war, but needless/nonstrategic wars

do the other versions at least fix the "no standing army problem"?

and what did I say that was so stupid? seems like you agree I am right

And by the way, the warlords 2.08 patch does NOT note any blake changes to tactics or war competence, which is what I was referring to. It just notes city placement/Ai emphasis buttons, etc.

From playing vanilla 1.61 a lot, I know the war AI - defensively and offensively - was better than Blakes' mod.

It's not perfect, but the AI is smart enough to build some axemen and move units to their cities that are about to get taken, making it more realistic. It's enough that I moved down from a level or two since Warlords 2.08. I really think you haven't played it enough if you think the AI is worse at war.

Yes, read the beginning of the thread and you'll understand what was improved.

And by the way, the warlords 2.08 patch does NOT note any blake changes to tactics or war competence, which is what I was referring to. It just notes city placement/Ai emphasis buttons, etc.

From playing vanilla 1.61 a lot, I know the war AI - defensively and offensively - was better than Blakes' mod.

You're the only one thinking that, but ok the earth is flat. :rolleyes:

How "normal" are wars in Civ4 games? I'm in year AD-1230 and so far no sign of a war anywhere yet... This is using latest build of Better AI and playing on Chieftain difficulty

How "normal" are wars in Civ4 games? I'm in year AD-1230 and so far no sign of a war anywhere yet... This is using latest build of Better AI and playing on Chieftain difficulty

I think you should try it harder, and pick more Civilizations. I'm playing on Prince difficulty, and I always take 3-4 extra nations in standard map.

My best record so far with BetterAI is 26 AI vs. AI wars at marathon speed, but I think my ongoing game is going to be better. There have been lot of messages of great generals, first came before 1000 BC. Very fun game indeed.

This is my first "real" play so I wanted to start out slow (difficulty wise). Still have troubles with happiness and Health :/

What about the "Aggressive AI" setting? Recommended or not?

This is my first "real" play so I wanted to start out slow (difficulty wise). Still have troubles with happiness and Health :/

What about the "Aggressive AI" setting? Recommended or not?

OK. When you feel comfortable with the game, move up in difficulty level. Then there will be more wars.

Personally I don't use the Aggressive AI (but I like Raging barbs). There is enough wars already. Like I said, pick more civilizations and there will be less room and more clashes - and probably not all have the same religion.

Yes, read the beginning of the thread and you'll understand what was improved.

the beginning of the thread is misleading..it certainly doesn't mention that the AI is ridiculously passive, and doesn't even have a standing army to respond when I declare war on it!

Why are you being so hostile? I think my complaints are reasonable, and MANY others have them, as I've seen on these betterAI boards.

And your recommendation for me to check the 1/30 build is hilarious, since Iustus admitted a problem with that build that made war declarations occur 19 times (no exaggeration) more than they should !

the beginning of the thread is misleading..it certainly doesn't mention that the AI is ridiculously passive, and doesn't even have a standing army to respond when I declare war on it!

Why are you being so hostile? I think my complaints are reasonable, and MANY others have them, as I've seen on these betterAI boards.

And your recommendation for me to check the 1/30 build is hilarious, since Iustus admitted a problem with that build that made war declarations occur 19 times (no exaggeration) more than they should !

Perhaps you should look at this thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=204248). You can see how the AI's aggression and intelligence varied. And yes, the consensus did seem to be that the latest build was a bit too passive. I still believe that one of the problems was that all the nerfing that was put in to address complaints that the AI was too aggressive was never taken out. Unfortunately neither Blake nor Iustus had a chance to address this before RL in the case of Iustus and BTS, I suspect, in the case of Blake claimed them.

I think some of the , not so friendly, comments were because you came in and just baldly stated that the Better AI was crap. It may well be that the last build doesn't meet your requirements but that's not the same as saying that all of the Better AI is no good which is how I think it came across. In addition it might have been better to post in the thread I mention above rather than this one.

Uh, when do I say "all of" BetterAI is crap? I'm sure some of Iustus' improvements are worthwhile.

However I think this latest build is broken, just as the 1/30 build is broken. Was there any good build of BetterAI without the passive bug or the war bug?

Also - why has blake stopped posting without informing people what he's doing? That's kind of obnoxious. Who's heard of a NDA that prohibits a modder from saying they are employed by a company? Makes no sense. Firaxis outright says they are using the fan community in BtS with scenarios, why not say it with AI if it's true?

Uh, when do I say "all of" BetterAI is crap?

IMO this is where it seems to come across:


Well, whatever the reason, the AI is considerably inferior to stock Warlords 2.08.

Note that this is only my opinion. You asked why you were getting hostile responses. I merely attempted to give a answer to the best of my ability. If you don't agree then fine.

Yeesh, lots of defensive hostility here. The AI is inferior because it doesn't know when to end wars, when to declare them, and how to defend against them. That's an opinion about an AI, not a personal attack on anyone. Nor does it say that all of Blake's improvements - eg city placement, governor management, production management, etc are inferior. Why can't we discuss the AI and keep it mature.

Yeesh, lots of defensive hostility here. The AI is inferior because it doesn't know when to end wars, when to declare them, and how to defend against them. That's an opinion about an AI, not a personal attack on anyone. Nor does it say that all of Blake's improvements - eg city placement, governor management, production management, etc are inferior. Why can't we discuss the AI and keep it mature.

Problem is that you can't discuss this. In order to do so we would need 1000 of games to compare between BetterAI and VanillaAI. Only then we could say for sure, which one behaves better, more realistc, more aggressive, you name it.

From my perspective both AIs are fun, but BetterAI is better :D Warfare is one story but a lot of other things are just nice to have (e.g. the automated workers work much better now).

Yeesh, lots of defensive hostility here. The AI is inferior because it doesn't know when to end wars, when to declare them, and how to defend against them. That's an opinion about an AI, not a personal attack on anyone. Nor does it say that all of Blake's improvements - eg city placement, governor management, production management, etc are inferior. Why can't we discuss the AI and keep it mature.

Actually being mature also means accepting that other people have different opinions than yours ;)

I played many Warlord games on monarch and emperor with the stock 2.08 AI and with BetterAI. MY opinion is BetterAI plays better even for wars. It makes much bigger stacks than stock AI and uses them better (less divided between stacks...), which is a key for success. It knows about cultural victory too, which is very nice. I don't see any real difference in the way they declare war though, unlike you. It depends on the version, we can't really talk about 'BetterAI' with the version number, there are many very different 'BetterAI'.

But if you give me money I'll say I agree with you, since it looks important for you (and because I need money). :lol:

No, I don't want you to agree, I was asking for you to not be a douche bag about a comment I made about an AI mod.

I don't see any real difference in the way they declare war though, unlike you. It depends on the version, we can't really talk about 'BetterAI' with the version number, there are many very different 'BetterAI'.

What version are you using? Do you use aggressive AI?

This guy remembers me of a nice quote :

"Never argue with a fool, people might not know the difference." - Mark Twain

:lol:

Clever. You insist on being hostile..I guess you people like BetterAI so you don't want to hear any criticism of it. Sort of a waste of time to quote Mark Twain and call people stupid over their valid questions/complaints about betterAI, though. if you don't want to talk about betterAi, why are you on this forum

This guy remembers me of a nice quote :

"Never argue with a fool, people might not know the difference." - Mark Twain

:lol:

Nice. "This guy remembers me of a nice quote."

How old are you ?

Guys, could you both please stop this flaming? Thanks! :) If you love each other so much, send private messages. ;)

Guys, could you both please stop this flaming? Thanks! :) If you love each other so much, send private messages. ;)

Looks like Twain was right. ;)

You both realise you're arguing over the integrity of a mod that is in the alpha stage!

Also - why has blake stopped posting without informing people what he's doing? That's kind of obnoxious.

If you've been watching American Idol, then you know where Blake has been. Who knew he could sing?

Also - why has blake stopped posting without informing people what he's doing? That's kind of obnoxious. Who's heard of a NDA that prohibits a modder from saying they are employed by a company? Makes no sense. Firaxis outright says they are using the fan community in BtS with scenarios, why not say it with AI if it's true?

This is a mod by a private individual (or two) not by Firaxis.

He/they can stop whenever they want to, it is their hobby, not a job. Therefore they do not have to tell anybody what they are doing - if they so choose.

You are the one being obnoxious - grow up. :mad:

er, people without jobs can still be obnoxious. they might not HAVE to do anything, but they can certainly still be rude.

Incidentally, you're an ass.

But i dont have to apologize, since i'm an unemployed student, right? :rolleyes:

Blake just bailed ..lame.

Where is a moderator when you need one. This was a very interesting thread until wiglaff came along and ruined it. wiglaff's quotes for the record:

Blake just bailed ..lame.

Incidentally, you're an ass.

Clever. You insist on being hostile..

No, I don't want you to agree, I was asking for you to not be a douche bag about a comment I made about an AI mod.

Yeesh, lots of defensive hostility here.

Why are you being so hostile? I think my complaints are reasonable, and MANY others have them, as I've seen on these betterAI boards.


If you aren't capable of having a civil discussion quit posting.

You might notice all of those comments are in response to you people being hostile over criticism of an AI mod. In fact, some of those comments were direct responses to being laughed at, being called "stupid," or being told to "grow up" or being called a "fool" by some genius quoting mark twain.

My questions about the mod from my earlier post remain...[regarading better AI war effectiveness in 1.61] before I was just laughed off rudely.

In addition, there is NO reason for Blake to stop posting, that's pretty clear, no NDA would prohibit him from saying he's involved in the project...no reason to. Firaxis already admits fan involvement in BTS.

In addition, there is NO reason for Blake to stop posting, that's pretty clear, no NDA would prohibit him from saying he's involved in the project...no reason to. Firaxis already admits fan involvement in BTS.

I agree that Blake should just have come by and said "I have enough on my hands right now ;)" - but if you look at the comments by Rhye in his mod's forum he seems to be involved in BTS but is extremely cautious in not stating this, so I am pretty sure that some agreement with Firaxis either prevents him from outright saying he works for them or as Griselda put it over at Realms Beyond:

Well, for the core game I had to sign a NDA, and I will say that it's very non-specific, with a lot of gray area about what you actually can and cannot do. In most cases, people would probably rather err on the side of caution, so not a lot of information gets out.

Maybe Blake doesn't want to be spammed by people saying: "you should do thsi...", "wouldn't it be great if this was done...", ect...

Hmm...i guess it is possible there's an NDA...it just seems odd for 2 reasons

1- firaxis already says fan-made stuff is in BTS
2 - firaxis has hired apolyton members like Trip and had that beta test of cfc/apolyton members in the past, with no NDA ...

Besides, theres just no way an NDA prohibits you from saying who employs you, unless maybe you work for the CIA...

I am using most of BetterAI in the code for Smarter Orcs (a FfH II mod) (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=219448).

I don't think I'll have time to work on this mod directly, but I'd be happy to back-port the pieces we create for Smarter Orcs that would likely be useful to this mod if that would be of assistance.

I am using most of BetterAI in the code for Smarter Orcs (a FfH II mod) (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=219448).

I don't think I'll have time to work on this mod directly, but I'd be happy to back-port the pieces we create for Smarter Orcs that would likely be useful to this mod if that would be of assistance.


That would be wonderful mate... keep us updated :goodjob:

Hmm...i guess it is possible there's an NDA...it just seems odd for 2 reasons

1- firaxis already says fan-made stuff is in BTS
2 - firaxis has hired apolyton members like Trip and had that beta test of cfc/apolyton members in the past, with no NDA ...

Besides, theres just no way an NDA prohibits you from saying who employs you, unless maybe you work for the CIA...

Hi there wiglaff, this is Ass, replying. :D

1. If Firaxis want to use existing fan-made stuff that is logical and does not need an NDA.

2. A contract of employment is a form of NDA. You can be sacked if you break it.

3. The Beta testers are asked during development not to say that they are testers or what they are testing. Also there are different levels of testers that are added too as game testing progresses.

They may say they were testers, once a game/patch is released - but not give details of what happened during the test process.

True - having signed an NDA you can say what you want afterwards, but you will never be a game tester again.

4. If you have never seen or signed an NDA - how can you possibly comment on them?:lol:

3. The Beta testers are asked during development not to say that they are testers or what they are testing. Also there are different levels of testers that are added too as game testing progresses.

They may say they were testers, once a game/patch is released - but not give details of what happened during the test process.

Not entirely true. I know Solver, a poly poster, is beta testing BtS [as he did civ4] before release. I don't know details of the product because he cannot divulge them, but I know he is working.

There is no reason for Firaxis to prohibit Blake from saying he works for them. Of course they can say - Say nothing about the production. But Blake saying "I work for firaxis" -- I can't see why that wouldn't be ok. Especially since Firaxis has a long history of relying on the game community, and has been so open about it.

Could you please give it a rest wig? You are complaining about why someone didn't/doesn't post. No one here owes you anything. Have you invested money into Better AI? Didn't think so.
Let people do whatever they want with their lives and stop whining.

No one here owes you anything.Especially Blake.

Could you please give it a rest wig? You are complaining about why someone didn't/doesn't post. No one here owes you anything. Have you invested money into Better AI? Didn't think so.
Let people do whatever they want with their lives and stop whining.

I don't owe it to anyone to help an old lady who can't reach a book she just dropped.

Doesn't mean I'm not obnoxious to ignore her, though...

heh
I rest my case

what are you talking about?

Let it go man...

Could one of you with a compiler and some brains (I know you're out there) pick up the ball, and the rest of you weenies stop whining and griping at one another. You're arguing like a bunch of kids.

Personally I'd be glad to do a little tidying up, but I don't have the (non-free) Visual Studio, which makes it impossible for me to help whether I want to or not.

Personally I'd be glad to do a little tidying up, but I don't have the (non-free) Visual Studio, which makes it impossible for me to help whether I want to or not.It doesn't make it impossible. You can if you really wanted to set up the free version to work with the SDK. There are threads all about it and I have set it up myself to work with the 2005 visual express edition without any probs.

Yeah, you can get it working with the free version, although it will take some steps to do so. Try this thread:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=196283

I am using most of BetterAI in the code for Smarter Orcs (a FfH II mod) (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=219448).

I don't think I'll have time to work on this mod directly, but I'd be happy to back-port the pieces we create for Smarter Orcs that would likely be useful to this mod if that would be of assistance.

Send me a PM with your sourceforge ID and I will add you to the sourceforge project.

-Iustus

Could one of you with a compiler and some brains (I know you're out there) pick up the ball, and the rest of you weenies stop whining and griping at one another. You're arguing like a bunch of kids.

Personally I'd be glad to do a little tidying up, but I don't have the (non-free) Visual Studio, which makes it impossible for me to help whether I want to or not.

I was the one that originally made this requirement. The reason was that the build from that version is smaller and likely runs a little bit faster.

Since no one has stepped up yet, I am sure everyone would be happy with whatever anyone can do.

So, if you want to be added to the sourceforge project, I will be happy to add you.

I would like to see someone step up to be in charge of the thing, to make sure the different people do not work at cross purposes.

If you get fixes working and building in code::blocks, perhaps you can locate someone with the pay version of Visual Studio 2003 to do your builds for release. (Or in a pinch, I might find the time some weekend to do that).

So, if you or anyone else wants either:
1) to have access to sourceforge, to be a contributer
or
2) to oversee all the changes and coordinate when a release should be done

send me a PM with your sourceforge login ID

-Iustus