I would like to know HOW it is possible to reenable merc hiring in the code...

The reason is simple: we are witnessing a resurrection of mercenaries: France, the UK and most of all the US all use merc soldiers today ('private armies')

FYI on the resurgence of Mercenaries in the US (http://politicky*****.blogspot.com/2007/02/mercenary-camp-comingright-up.html)

Yep, I can definitely see Songhai SAM Infantry and Visigoth Tanks.

Hmm... do I detect sarcasm? :)

FYI on the resurgence of Mercenaries in the US (http://politicky*****.blogspot.com/2007/02/mercenary-camp-comingright-up.html)

This link doesn't work...


I don't know if this is a good or bad idea... i never use Mercenaries :lol:

lol...

the link gets censored by the forum i guess?

the link is: politicky*****.blogspot.com/2007/02/mercenary-camp-comingright-up.html
the ***** is the b-word

i don't use them much myself, i just thought it'd be interesting to have the choice, since with Dubya it's very much in use...

just my ramblings...

all i wanted to know was how to toggle that option for my own benefit

I would agree to have mercs after nationalism. I've already proposed it somewhere (can't find the thread, it was a lot ot time ago, and there are so many to watch in). Count me on!

EDIT: an idea. Maybe not the technology, but the Nationhood civic should not allow to hire/sell mercs. What do you think?

Hmm... do I detect sarcasm?

Well, my main point was that they would be Xiongnu Helicopters and Olmec Riflemen, which slightly compromises the case for a mercenary resurrection.

Also, I'm just guessing here, but would you be able to hire mercenary nukes?

Also, I'm just guessing here, but would you be able to hire mercenary nukes?

The Islamist dream !!:drool:
You just go to your local Wall Mart in the WMD section and shop around asking the Wall Mart associate/slave what he would recommend for maximum destruction.:D

Do you want to super-size your nuke?

Do you want to super-size your nuke?

It comes with sides of mustard gas and rockets.

Hehe, I see this has become a funny thread... Keep'em coming!

@Phallus: I see your point. I hadn't thought of that. But maybe they can have corporation names? Or they can keep their odd names...

Ok, I finded it! It was on the "Mercenaries" (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=194310) thread. Here was my argument:
I agree with mitsho, but not with Tom Veil. I don't think that Egypt, in the Renaissance era, would hire Nubian Musketmen, for instance. Names would be rather general and open for all civilizations. But it would be good that, further than a generic naming system, have some name of famous auxiliar or mercenary companies, in history. For example: Nubian Archers, Swiss Pikemen, Iberian Swordmen (hired by the Roman Empire), Babylonian Archers, the "Minutemen" (Fusileers), "American Volunteer Group" (Infantry), " Spanish Blue Division" (Infantry, though they weren't exactly mercenaries), "Tonton Macoutes" (Marines), "Sons of Mars" (Swordmen), Condottieri (any Medieval unit), "Catalan Company" (Camel Archers), "German landsknechts" (Muskets), "Ronin" and "Yojimbo" (Samurai), "French Foreign Legion" (Fusileers, though they can appear as any modern infantry-type unit), "Executive Operations, Inc." (any modern unit), "Sandline International" (any modern unit, specially Marines), "Gurkha Security Guards, Ltd." (Mechanized Infantry), "Contra Operatives" (Marines), "Vlassov's Liberation Army" (Cossacks), "Stillwel "Vinnegar Joe" 's Company" (Infantry; again, they were not "exactly" mercenaries, but they can fit here).

As it is deductible from the list, not only Ancient/Classical/Medieval/Renaissance mercenaries should be allowable. I don't see the point on having the mercenary system get obsolete with Nationalism, as mercenaries existed whole history. One of the Mercenary companies detailed above, Sandline International, was closed in 2004. Many of these companies still operate in Africa, South America, Asia (especially Irak), and in many other regions of the world. In Europe, we have the Swiss Guard in the Vatican. And dare you think they are a "testimonial guard". I have seen them, and they are high skilled operatives, fully armed. And the Gurkha Contingent is still operative in Singapore. I have seen them with my own eyes, so don't tell me that they don't exist today!

However, if there is any reason of game balance that explains it, I would be glad to see it. I will comprehend, for example, that civs with the "Nationhood" civic weren't allowed to purchase mercenaries, not only for game balance, but also because of historic background (though Nazi Germany might have been Nationhood and did purchased mercenaries).


What do you think? Do you like these names?

Yep... Now HOW does one get them mercs back then?

The Islamist dream !!:drool:
You just go to your local Wall Mart in the WMD section and shop around asking the Wall Mart associate/slave what he would recommend for maximum destruction.:D

hmm... perhaps you meant to say fundamentalist or terrorist? seems kinda wrong to peg an entire religion here.

also... do you think wal marts 3month return policy would cover detonated war heads?

hmm... perhaps you meant to say fundamentalist or terrorist? seems kinda wrong to peg an entire religion here.

also... do you think wal marts 3month return policy would cover detonated war heads?

Yeah sorry about that, just made a quick association there.

The return policy only works if it detonated accidently, not if you detonated the nuke yourself. Walmart will always ask you to recover the remains of the warhead in order to study if it was accidental or deliberate. Radioactive resistant suit not included.:D

Yeah sorry about that, just made a quick association there.

The return policy only works if it detonated accidently, not if you detonated the nuke yourself. Walmart will always ask you to recover the remains of the warhead in order to study if it was accidental or deliberate. Radioactive resistant suit not included.:D

lol. I'm all for it in that case. Let the indescriminate nuclear wasting begin!

Yep... Now HOW does one get them mercs back then?

That's easy. It's matter to remove the Nationalism "obsolescense" routine. However, forbid the mercs for Nationhood civic will be a little more difficult. (And by a little more difficult I mean I haven't got idea at all).

Yep... Now HOW does one get them mercs back then?

That's easy. It's matter to remove the Nationalism "obsolescense" routine. However, forbid the mercs for Nationhood civic will be a little more difficult. (And by a little more difficult I mean I haven't got idea at all).

Let the indescriminate nuclear wasting begin!

OK, but remember to return the ticket in case of accidental functioning.

hmm... perhaps you meant to say fundamentalist or terrorist? seems kinda wrong to peg an entire religion here.

also... do you think wal marts 3month return policy would cover detonated war heads?

he said islamist not muslim, "islamist" is commonly used to describe radical muslims...

but it still represents a strong and unhealthy connotation between islam and fundamentalism and it is probably better to use fundamentalist/terrorist

yeah, being pc untill we forget their actions root in religion (and islam is a particularly violent one as is christianity)....

but lets not get off topic here :-)

Islamism is political movement. It has not sense associate it with terrorists. Sure some of them should be, like communist or anarchist or something...

so why is it wrong to call an islamistic terrorist an islamist?

i dunno... isn't it kinda like saying that all jews are zionist and that all germans (and austrians, why not) are nazis...

To get back on track, it might take a while to implement, but i'd like to see hidden nationality units come back to Civ. I know they already have it in Ffh, but would it be too much work to port it to the Warlord's codebase?

Then we could have hidden-nationality mercs. Fight secret wars!

no, its more like saying a jewish zionist is a jew or an anarchist butcher is an anarchist, which cant be wrong, does it?
the only reason why the above comparison isnt 100percent correct, is that an islamistic terrorist is a terrorist because he is an islamist
(the anarchist butcher most likely isnt a butcher due to his ideology :-) )

To get back on track, it might take a while to implement, but i'd like to see hidden nationality units come back to Civ. I know they already have it in Ffh, but would it be too much work to port it to the Warlord's codebase?

Then we could have hidden-nationality mercs. Fight secret wars!

It won't be that complicated, I think. Spies already have this type of code, no? So there must be an option in the XML to add the "hidden nationality" to an unit. I'll check this, to make sure. Mercs with hidden nationality will be fantastic! In fact, as it is, it could be a merc-only promotion all mercs have as they start (or make hidden nationality tied to the merc promotion itself).

It won't be that complicated, I think. Spies already have this type of code, no? So there must be an option in the XML to add the "hidden nationality" to an unit. I'll check this, to make sure. Mercs with hidden nationality will be fantastic! In fact, as it is, it could be a merc-only promotion all mercs have as they start (or make hidden nationality tied to the merc promotion itself).

I like the way this is going :)

Off-topic: Mercenary nukes could represent those shady dealings between Civs (though the mercenary screen "middle-man" prevents any diplomatic backlash)!

Sort-of-on-topic: Islamism is fundamentalist Islam. Islam the religion is not Islamism the political movement (from Social Science classes).

Still-only-sort-of-on-topic: The whole concept of armies in the modern age needs to be revamped, not just the mercenaries. Everything should be more like aircraft: missions-based with defenders having interception and engagement.

On-topic: hidden nationality troops. The big problem is: are their nationalities still hidden if they conquer a city? It seems like its greatest weakness to me, which is why I thought of the last paragraph before this.

On-topic: hidden nationality troops. The big problem is: are their nationalities still hidden if they conquer a city? It seems like its greatest weakness to me, which is why I thought of the last paragraph before this.

Though I'm still trying to understand the code, as long as I know, hidden nationality units (meaning, those who can cross enemy borders and are "invisible" to the enemy, summarized in the code by two booleans, if I can remember well) can't conquer cities, sorry. However, I think this makes sense. Mercs do the dirty job, and in the last stage, the glorious marines enter in the city.

Still-only-sort-of-on-topic: The whole concept of armies in the modern age needs to be revamped, not just the mercenaries. Everything should be more like aircraft: missions-based with defenders having interception and engagement.


Hmm, sounds pretty interesting, but in this case I just don't know if it's possible.

Off-topic: Mercenary nukes could represent those shady dealings between Civs (though the mercenary screen "middle-man" prevents any diplomatic backlash)!


I'm now thinking, what would you think about merc spies? They will make modern era pretty much more interesting, no? And it's much more real than merc nukes (or that's what I trust). And, just asking, and merc missionaries? Think at the possibilities...:D

Merc spies? They have to be named "Mata Hari," "James Bond," "Austin Powers," and other notable spies (even if they aren't exactly side-flipping). Aside from that, I don't know if a Civ lending some of its intelligence capabilities to other Civs is realistic (never heard of such a case, but they are spies after all). As for owner-less ones, I think it could only apply in the Middle Ages. Informants, with the settler "father" model, practically the same as spies except no sabotage. I dunno.

Merc missionaries. "The Word of God for only $20,000 folks, yessiree!" or "Be enlightened today, hire our bona fide Buddhist instructor for only $75,000, immigration forms inclusive! --Nirvana not included." or maybe "Our gods can beat your gods any time of the day; learn more from our national missionary for only $50,000!" or maybe even I should quiet down now. I think it would be highly unrealistic if you set a missionary for hire and some Civ, wanting better relations, hires it. Or even having mercenary missionaries at random -- they're missionaries for a reason, and they ain't going to finish any work if they sit there waiting to be paid for their charisma and knowledge of their doctrines.

As for the glory-finish thing, I think it will be pretty obvious to who the mercs were working for by the time the national units arrive -- telecommunications makes that easy. Unhire the moment they their "owner" who hasn't formally declared war yet enters war? Or maybe simply lose the trait?

Oh, and something popped into mind as I write this: is it possible to add a diplomatic penalty with nearby Civs for having too many national troops near a victim's (target but no war yet) borders, like 1-2 tiles away? Penalty being heavier if the victim Civ is friends with a certain neighbor? Ah, that's another mod idea already.

Merc spies? They have to be named "Mata Hari," "James Bond," "Austin Powers," and other notable spies (even if they aren't exactly side-flipping). Aside from that, I don't know if a Civ lending some of its intelligence capabilities to other Civs is realistic (never heard of such a case, but they are spies after all). As for owner-less ones, I think it could only apply in the Middle Ages. Informants, with the settler "father" model, practically the same as spies except no sabotage. I dunno.

Merc missionaries. "The Word of God for only $20,000 folks, yessiree!" or "Be enlightened today, hire our bona fide Buddhist instructor for only $75,000, immigration forms inclusive! --Nirvana not included." or maybe "Our gods can beat your gods any time of the day; learn more from our national missionary for only $50,000!" or maybe even I should quiet down now. I think it would be highly unrealistic if you set a missionary for hire and some Civ, wanting better relations, hires it. Or even having mercenary missionaries at random -- they're missionaries for a reason, and they ain't going to finish any work if they sit there waiting to be paid for their charisma and knowledge of their doctrines.

As for the glory-finish thing, I think it will be pretty obvious to who the mercs were working for by the time the national units arrive -- telecommunications makes that easy. Unhire the moment they their "owner" who hasn't formally declared war yet enters war? Or maybe simply lose the trait?

Oh, and something popped into mind as I write this: is it possible to add a diplomatic penalty with nearby Civs for having too many national troops near a victim's (target but no war yet) borders, like 1-2 tiles away? Penalty being heavier if the victim Civ is friends with a certain neighbor? Ah, that's another mod idea already.

Everybody in Europe is 1-2 tiles away from anybody... i think this won't work very good... :crazyeye:

Bah, ignore that. It's way off-topic.

Back on-topic: I think there should be cheaper mercenaries (no experience) and more mercenaries in general. It was the "in" thing in medieval Europe to have mercenaries fighting your wars, though I think it is already represented by the units you train. Unless of course, you're on Nationalism; that would mean your troops are born and bred of your culture.

I think it would be highly unrealistic if you set a missionary for hire and some Civ, wanting better relations, hires it

OK, indeed a bad idea, thinking back on it. But I have another ones: we have talked about merc nukes... and how about merc ships and/or planes? I played a couple of games where I had to build my navy to invade a country in another isle (yes, I'm speaking about England) or continent. And after you do it, you think: "OK, what I do now with all this stuff". Venice Republic hired her ships for the Crusades, and on modern day it's not misheard about the main powers selling or hiring old ships and planes to third world countries. Specially noticeable Russian nuclear submarines, recicled as "mobile powerplants", and USA selling old carriers in eBay.

I guess that could work out. Let your cities build up the armies and hire out a fleet. Chinese Junks, no less. I think the geographical aspect of mercenaries is overlooked -- I mean, even before Astronomy, you can have an Explorer from Mali do the dirty work of the Incan savages. Then, large sums of gold get transferred to the state who owned the Explorer. It might just be me who feels this, though.

This is cute and all, but doesn't address the underlying broken-ness of Mercs. They're expensive once decently promoted, and I would rather produce 50 of my own units for the same cost than pay 90gpt in upkeep for a foreign unit.

That makes them quite fixed/balanced/underpowered (since broken would mean overpowered in the classical gaming lingo as I know it). Deviating, how about simply making a mercenary unit that builds very quickly (always one turn) but instantly costs one gold upkeep, regardless? That will kinda scrap the whole mercenary mod thing, though, and putting all that hard work down the drains seems a big waste.

That makes them quite fixed/balanced/underpowered (since broken would mean overpowered in the classical gaming lingo as I know it). Deviating, how about simply making a mercenary unit that builds very quickly (always one turn) but instantly costs one gold upkeep, regardless? That will kinda scrap the whole mercenary mod thing, though, and putting all that hard work down the drains seems a big waste.

Broken is broken, but if you want to be technical I should have said nerfed =P.

Well, how often do you actually use the Mercenary feature? I used to all the time in order to make cash. In early versions, you wouldn't pay upkeep on units queued for hire. However, this was broken since players would build enormous armies, ship them off to wait around for free, then call them back when they get declared on/declare on someone.

Since they fixed that, I never use it. If I want to RP the Italians hiring Mercs, then maybe I will. Or if I feel like RPing as Carthage I will. But from an optimal strategy viewpoint, they're useless. They take several turns to arrive, so you can't hire them for emergency defense and keeping them around "just in case" is a waste of gold. If you notice, the civs that are behind always have mercs around =P. So, I think the GPT needs to be liberated from Promotions and be based purely on unit strength. Say, 1/2*strength rounded down as the gpt maintenance. Reduce the hiring cost to Strength*3 and you have a reasonable cost vs. benefit. Now all that needs to be fixed are the units that spawn in the merc screen with 6+ promotions. Have them all come with 0XP, Level1, with Merc I and nothing else.

I use as often as possible -- cashing in on cheap explorers.

As you have well pointed out, RPing is a great point for mercenaries but they are horrid strategically. I completely agree with revamping the whole cost system and changing the spawns -- with that, you can have a mercenary army in no time (which would be great for builders). All that's left is for someone to actually fix what is broken.

I think Whitefire made the best suggestion so far (concerning the basic rules of mercenaries). Is it possible to increase the number of merc spawns? I mean, you don't want to have other Civs miss out on the merc-stack fun.

If you notice, the civs that are behind always have mercs around =P.

Just like real world :D

Is it possible to increase the number of merc spawns?

It's a matter of cost. Make them cheaper, and there will be less mercs. Make them more expensive, and there will be more mercs (I think).

Just like real world :D
Most of the Middle Ages fighting were done with mercs. Who were the colonial powers? Who were the first people who were industrialized? Anyway, it's a game, and by integrating the "candy" features with actual gameplay, I believe it will end up more fun to play.
It's a matter of cost. Make them cheaper, and there will be less mercs. Make them more expensive, and there will be more mercs (I think).
I think it should be the other way around [if the AI didn't buy mercs all the time, and only at the times of need]. By having an inifinitely more accessible and more basic merc pool, then being richer now has a more direct (and realistic) effect on warfare.

I quote (thank you R:TW) Thucydides: "War is not so much a matter of weapons as of money."

I quote (thank you R:TW) Thucydides: "War is not so much a matter of weapons as of money."

I'll counter-reply you with one Al Capone's saying: "You can do more with a gun and a bag of money, than just with one bag of money".

However, I think you're right. The AI won't buy so much mercs if mercs are more expensive, but if they are more expensive, you won't buy them, but you'll sell, instead. It's all of a matter of supply and demand, what mades me wonder if it would be possible to make merc prices to flow? Then, mercs will be cheap if there are lots in the market, but horribly expensive if there are few.

You should probably take this conversation here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=162016).

@Whitefire
Probably. ;D A little more conversation then probably the final draft of the suggestion first. It would distract the momentum of the exchange if the board suddenly changes, no?

@fearuin
I'll simply say without quoting: is the production of a gun free? ;)

Everything is agreeable in the end, no? Anyway, the main concern is the AI usage -- the best and simplest solution would be to simply make the AI hire mercs in imminent war instead of "as long as they have the money." How the AI would determine that would be a breeze if you can simply put coding parameters like 'tiles away from border." As far as I know --I have no idea how flexible the engine is.

I believe the AI purchases Mercs in order to catch up in the power rating.

Really? Cool.

But it will still drain their resources needlessly (outside of war), unlike the intelligent way humans would use them.

But then again, "intelligent AI" has been a great paradox since time immemorial.

@fearuin
I'll simply say without quoting: is the production of a gun free? ;)


Hee, one point for you :)

But it will still drain their resources needlessly (outside of war), unlike the intelligent way humans would use them.


You mean making theaters, libraries, roads and so on? Live in peace, without need of wars? Yeah, wonderful, but very unkind to happen in RFC (or in the real world :rolleyes:). In fact, here you have a challenge (I know you're now trying Japan Space Race, but here's one freebie suggestion): win without fighting a war. Defensive ones included. AIWars included (so beware where your settlers stablish). Easy? Not at all!

No, what I meant was that it is a needless drain to pay for mercs outside of imminent/wartime as buying them for the power rating would do, unlike how a human would use them buy, as in buying mercs only when needed (while mounting an offensive or as defensive boosts and not just leaving them to stand around draining away resources which is specifically gold). I was not condoning war at all.

If the AI bought mercs with more purpose in mind (mounting an attack for one) than just the power rating, then there will be probably more wars.

And whoever said I was doing Japan Space Race? :p I thought that was Whitefire over there.

The :rolleyes: smiley is so annoying. :rolleyes:

And whoever said I was doing Japan Space Race? I thought that was Whitefire over there.

The smiley :rolleyes: is so annoying. :rolleyes:

Whoops, forgive me :rolleyes: .
Whoops, forgive me again :mischief: .
(What a bad joke ;) )
If the AI bought mercs with more purpose in mind (mounting an attack for one) than just the power rating, then there will be probably more wars.

Yeah, but mercs are not only to attack, but also to defend, and if your power level is overwhelmingly higher than hers, she will become frightened of you, and then buy mercs to catch up you in power, so you, if you were an AI, reconsider attacking. I always thought that the worst problem of the AI in this or in every other strategy game I played is to consider that human will guide herself by the same guidelines than she (the AI) does.

Historically, were mercs used outside of conquest? Not counting the Swiss Guard of the Pope nowadays, of course, I know that they're not used for combat.

...or are they? :shifty:

No really, I don't know whether mercs (like those Germans who were called Land-necks or something -- probably due to their lack of hygienic prowess, they're necks were constantly covered with dirt, I dunno) were used outside of wartime.

No really, I don't know whether mercs (like those Germans who were called Land-necks or something -- probably due to their lack of hygienic prowess, they're necks were constantly covered with dirt, I dunno) were used outside of wartime.

For the most part, they weren't which caused large problems for Europe during long periods of peace. It was common for Mercs to continue their behavior regardless of politics, so they would change from hired swords to unlawful raiders depending on the political climate.

For the most part, they weren't which caused large problems for Europe during long periods of peace. It was common for Mercs to continue their behavior regardless of politics, so they would change from hired swords to unlawful raiders depending on the political climate.
So mercs shouldn't be bought by the AI just to catch up in power rating. Maybe a revamp in the power rating system, where gold vs mercenary availability will be taken into consideration, so a Civ with lots of gold while there are plenty of mercs for the taking are quite powerful indeed.

No really, I don't know whether mercs (like those Germans who were called Land-necks or something -- probably due to their lack of hygienic prowess, they're necks were constantly covered with dirt, I dunno) were used outside of wartime.

You mean landsknecht?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landsknecht

So mercs shouldn't be bought by the AI just to catch up in power rating. Maybe a revamp in the power rating system, where gold vs mercenary availability will be taken into consideration, so a Civ with lots of gold while there are plenty of mercs for the taking are quite powerful indeed.

I've been thinking this: if the AI uses mercs for defensive purpouses, and it is checked that in history mercs used to behalve as wanderers in peacetime, then we can make each merc unit when there is no war give a :mad: penalty to each city. That will represent the unhappiness of those citizens that see their land pillaged for foreigners that assure to do it "in name of the King". AI understands pretty well happiness, so she will take this factor into consideration, hiring more mercs in wartime, and dismissing them when making peace (hopefully).

The Daily Show just had a guest Jeremy Scahill speaking about Blackwater and our unmentioned Mercs in Iraq :) it was on Comedy Central on TH 04/19/07... catch it on a rerun maybe [sorry for any offtopicness].

I guess we used those private sector/independent contractors aka Mercenaries in New Orleans after Hurricane Katrina... so that would be "outside of war", correct?

I guess we used those private sector/independent contractors aka Mercenaries in New Orleans after Hurricane Katrina... so that would be "outside of war", correct?

Yes, I guess. Did anybody complaint about them? Any denounce about robbery or pillage? What I said was mostly referred to pre-Nationalism mercs. Maybe today are more professional (and a monthly pay will help a lot, in the old days they hadn't).

I've been thinking this: if the AI uses mercs for defensive purpouses, and it is checked that in history mercs used to behalve as wanderers in peacetime, then we can make each merc unit when there is no war give a :mad: penalty to each city. That will represent the unhappiness of those citizens that see their land pillaged for foreigners that assure to do it "in name of the King". AI understands pretty well happiness, so she will take this factor into consideration, hiring more mercs in wartime, and dismissing them when making peace (hopefully).
Then the AI won't hire a huge stack and march into enemy territory for invasion, if that's the case. What if the :mad: penalty will only apply to cities with mercs within their fat cross or adjacent squares? That has nothing to do with the AI, but I doubt mercs would roam the countryside if they are still under pay, since travel was difficult in olden times.

Then the AI won't hire a huge stack and march into enemy territory for invasion, if that's the case. What if the :mad: penalty will only apply to cities with mercs within their fat cross or adjacent squares? That has nothing to do with the AI, but I doubt mercs would roam the countryside if they are still under pay, since travel was difficult in olden times.

Seems Ok to me.