I favor playing it out too. This is a big challenge, and I think there will be a lot to learn watching you play such a tough challenge. I think you should stick to the REX plan and not sidetrack onto the Hanging Gardens. The pop jump will be only a mild benefit and you're going to be happy-limited so the health + is no big deal. Plus, you can easily be the largest civ and long-term that will be a big help.

For now, I'd Rex the clam-cow city, two cities using the other river, and a city for the Iron. Pump Axes from Edrine to bust that Barb city and found a replacement at the mouth of the river and another using the cow and two fish. Then go for city expansion and courthouses. Any more cities will be too much of a research drag.

You've been getting complacent and its about time you had a tougher game. It is potentially winnable, at least one person has posted a victory (space 1899) in the spoiler thread.

You've been getting complacent and its about time you had a tougher game. It is potentially winnable, at least one person has posted a victory (space 1899) in the spoiler thread.

I hesitated to unspoil it too...

Anyway, I'm pretty sure you can still get liberalism first. Just stop to research anything else : go for CS!

+ you're going to need hordes of workers (and some settlers).
I agree with the fact that more cities = more research in your situation. Don't forget to spread confucianism.

look at it this way :
each city will give you at least 1 commerce (central tile) and 1 gold for you shrine + another commerce for trade route. That's 3 + any commerce tile or scientist you can assign. + cheap courthouses.
IMHO you should build up your empire asap.

hit the barb city before it builds walls (even if you have to temporarily pull military police). Otherwise you might have to get construction or leave it there for a long time, both unsatisfying propositions.

If you can't win the liberalism race, go for drama and music.
Or get Music with liberalism if you win it.
Either way, build up theaters, caste system artists, and start cult. bombing your 3 best cities.

Just my suggestion :mischief:

-WhistlingBear

AIs neglect paper and education, so you still have a good change for a liberalism. I recommend a switch to a caste system, but whip lighthouses, granaries, hammams and libraries before change. You can run four scientists in your capital and 2-3 in Bursa. Maybe 3-4 more in fishing village if you decide to found it. SE is your way to go until you reach liberalism.

I think that you can get at least two GS in time. First one in capital is a bit tricky, as Oracle has spoiled your GP pool. But in Bursa (or fishing village) you surely get GS. Lightbulb philo first, then self-research paper and wish for another scientist to lightbulb education. Timing is important, let Bursa finish GS. (I'm in the office so I can't check current GP points in capital.)

Edirne and Ankara could run merchants when needed with Caste system also, so you don't need currency either. In general those two cities should keep building more settlers and workes to expand. Have scientists where you can, cottagespam everything else so cities can pay their maintenance.

Research CS next. You want bureucracy soon, and maybe you want to build some cottages in capital to boost commerce then. You should also consider building Sankore, you have stone, math and lots of forests around capital. Is it worth it though? I don't know about that. You probably want to switch FR as soon as you reach liberalism to maintain good relations, but at least it would give you some GP points. And it keeps it away from AIs who have enough bonuses already.

Damn. What happened to the SE? You had Writing a little after 1000BC and you were still slow-building a library in the capital at 355BC. Why didn't you whip it much earlier? You didn't mention running scientists. They would've helped you a lot with research. You probably are doing so by now, but you really should have done that since long ago.

If you didn't want to go with an SE (which I think is necessary for Liberalism), you should have gotten started on a CE, but apparently that didn't happen either :eek:

I'm sorry, but at this point the game is looking like it will be a boring catch-up session. But to mitigate my harsh comments a little, you can probably still pull it off. You should still try for Liberalism (do not take Astronomy, that's scuicide, and don't research Monarchy on the way - you have Hammams to help you out). If you don't get it, still beeline to Democracy. Make sure you cottage spam. You should be able to catch up and surpass the AI in the late game.

You may be isolated and hideously backward, but you've been given some juicy land right on the equator.

Cultural's going to be a long hard slog unless you can pick up a couple more religions, but other victories (UN/Space) are still on the cards. Neither would make for the most exciting game since there's not much reason to expand overseas with either option, but they're both eminently winnable and would illustrate how to clamber up the tech ladder from an isolated start nicely.

Finish sailing (for lighthouses), tech to currency (once you get some more commerce going markets will help your economy more than courthouses will), build LOTS of workers and get the rest of the island settled. Go farm and HR-military police happy to grow your cities large (this also helps with rapid infrastructure whipping), as you beeline democracy. As the cities grow, cottage everywhere, use emancipation for rapid growth and a combination of deep beelining and trading to catch up with the AIs.

PS - I notice your riverside cottages are spreading in the capital. Don't forget to leave one tile farmed so that you can chain irrigation to the rice once CS is in.

cultural is virtually impossible without a great number of religions. UN also seems a bit farfetched without the GL to speed uo things though ofc that only means you cant do it as early... It is still possible to catch up as you have a nice amount of land to settle.

Sisiutil- you need to man-up here. As. Dr. Elmore Jiggle once said, there are few map problems axemen can't solve. This may be one. I would say the corollary is "...Axemen or caravels". You've got yourself in a jam. No happiness resources and no trading partner. Isn't the idea of the ALC to play to the leader's strength? You're expansive and your UU isn't around the corner. EXPAND to fill up your island, leaving the barb city for XP. Once you do that, you can hop on some galleys and expand some more until your UU's window has passed. This will give you a toehold on the other continent(s) securing your victory. Although, it's OK to lose once in a while too.

Sisiutil,
Any luck with confucianism spreading on its own ? You need the culture and the happiness to expand throughtfully your continent. Don´t leave any gaps for the Ai to set foot on, you still have time though.
As for a particular religion civic, I am not sure. You usually run OR at this time, but you would lose valuable time researching Monotheism and the benefits of running OR is less than average since you already have cheap granaries and courthouses.

There are a lot of prophets of doom around here :p , but I must agree that things aren't looking easy....
In my point of view the more acheivable victory types are space ( cottage spam, Emancipation, maybe Internet ( if needed ) and maybe Space elevator too ) and Caste system powered late Cultural victory ( the one that you described in your strategy article ( needs beeline to Philosophy and taoism is already founded :( ; also asks for Sistine chapel.... tricky) ) , and I would stick to aelf's plan: ReX, cottage, Emancipation, .... , Space.

About city sites, maybe the cow/iron spot in the north could be next, or the cow/clam in the west, or maybe near the horses in the east ( less fogbusting )

Ankara needs a lighthouse....

About the barb city ... The city placement of barbs takes in account all the resourses, so I'm betting that an oil/uranium in the desert or a coal/aluminium in the hills are waiting to be discovered. But it overlaps with the double fish city.... raze or not to raze.... well, it's your call :lol: .

I think the key to winning isolated starts is NOT to think of them as boring. In fact, it's all the more important to go on automated mode. To Aelf: I think Sisiutil went on autopilot mode, that's why he didn't rush-build the library. Don't go autopilot. Work out every meticulous detail. It'll be a shame to let this game go - the hammams are truly spectacular for this.

I still believe a liberalism-astronomy is possible, should you try hard enough. If not, but you still want to go for liberalism anyway, consider divine right. The hapiness bonus from Islam might help (trade theology from the AI once you meet them with caravels).

I really don't see how this game is lost. It's not. Monarch has launch dates of 18xx at the earliest, giving your cottages plenty of time to tech up and conquer.

It's bad, but not horrible. You have plenty of room to settle a respectable number of decent cities. I'd minimize army, go settler-worker heavy and spam cottages. Screw liberalism, go for optics instead. Cultural victory would be fun to watch, I'm really bad at those myself.

Damn. What happened to the SE? You had Writing a little after 1000BC and you were still slow-building a library in the capital at 355BC. Why didn't you whip it much earlier? You didn't mention running scientists. They would've helped you a lot with research. You probably are doing so by now, but you really should have done that since long ago.

If you didn't want to go with an SE (which I think is necessary for Liberalism), you should have gotten started on a CE, but apparently that didn't happen either :eek:

Tch, you took the words out of my mouth. The downfall came with this comment.

I also began employing the whip as my cities grew in order to hurry the infrastructure along:

You should have been whipping settlers and let buildings/units slowly build. The objective here is to REX as fast as possible, tanking research for awhile instead of slowly expanding and tanking research forever. I would suggest Sis, that you drop the research slider to 0% and settle everything you can. Then, build/whip a Worker and Courthouse in every city. Once those are completed, say goodbye to Slavery and jump to Caste System. Count on your merchants/scientists to keep you alive.

Can you replay that last set of turns perhaps?

I still believe a liberalism-astronomy is possible, should you try hard enough. If not, but you still want to go for liberalism anyway, consider divine right. The hapiness bonus from Islam might help (trade theology from the AI once you meet them with caravels).

I really don't see how this game is lost. It's not. Monarch has launch dates of 18xx at the earliest, giving your cottages plenty of time to tech up and conquer.

It's strange that you recommend cottaging up and going for Liberalism-Astronomy at the same time. Why not grab Nationalism and make a beeline to Democracy?

You should have been whipping settlers and let buildings/units slowly build.

The libraries, though, could not wait.

true about libraries, how can you expect to avoid prophets if you don't run scientists?
A change to caste system would have made it possible to slow build, though.

cultural is virtually impossible without a great number of religions.
I respectfully disagree. I won a cultural victory as Qin on Prince once, from an isolated start, with only one religion.
Damn. What happened to the SE?
The SE struck me as a non-starter due to the lack of neighbours to (a) beat up for gold and/or (b) trade lightbulbed techs with.
Sisiutil- you need to man-up here.
Right. I'm off to consume mass quantities of dead animal flesh and fermented hops-based beverages whilst watching popular sporting events clad only in my underwear. I'm leaving the toilet seat down, though, just so I can tell the divorce court judge I did something right.
Sisiutil,
Any luck with confucianism spreading on its own ?
As I recall, it spread to my 2 newest cities on its own, even before the shrine was built. I suspect I'll have to build very few missionaries.

The SE struck me as a non-starter due to the lack of neighbours to (a) beat up for gold and/or (b) trade lightbulbed techs with.

On this account you are mistaken, comrade. An SE doesn't need neighbours. Like I said, you only need to trade to backfill techs. And that can happen after you've won the Liberalism race. And you don't have to be going to war for plunder either. Specialist beakers and lightbulbing are all you need for a healthy SE.

On this account you are mistaken, comrade. An SE doesn't need neighbours. Like I said, you only need to trade to backfill techs. And that can happen after you've won the Liberalism race. And you don't have to be going to war for plunder either. Specialist beakers and lightbulbing are all you need for a healthy SE.

Thus betraying my limited experience with the SE. Maybe I should play a few more off-line games with it.

I think aelf has it right, and after reading his late-game comeback as Montezuma on Immortal I'm inclined to think you can do the same, following a similar plan. He had very few tech trading partners throughout the game, had to worry more about being invaded, and had worse traits than Mehmed for a space race win. This is very doable.
----------------
I agree with what Melior has suggested too - Bureacracy in the capital will be really helpful, and since Mehmed is Organized the high upkeep shouldn't hurt too much.
It's on the road to Liberalism, which still seems to be one of the major goals people are pushing for.

How long would it take you to research CS and what other immediate tech needs do you have?

You have a lot of young cities and a few more planned on the way - somewhere is going to have to step up and carry the research burden. I don't know how feasible it is to research Monarchy along the path to Liberalism, but if you don't you can stagnate your growth with workers, which you will need plenty of. Getting +50% production in the capital and +25%(on hammers) for Expansive means you should be able to crank them out fairly quickly.

When I think about it Mehmed has great traits and a terrific UB for this kind of situation. If the Janissaries don't feature prominently, oh well - they're another tool in an already strong toolbox.

The libraries, though, could not wait.

When I REX, I generally get all of my settlers done before worrying about infrastructure. It's a more efficient use of whips and it's more efficient for the economy. Since most of the cities will be settled at the same time, when you're ready to switch out of Slavery after whipping a worker/courthouse in your last city without them, the rest should have a Library/Market and some with a Hammam. This makes a huge impact on economy, yes, but it drastically reduces the number of turns to recover.

Thus betraying my limited experience with the SE.

Same here, as my current game shows. I only know it in theory :p

Ok, I guess I just did it recently in an offline game.

When I REX, I generally get all of my settlers done before worrying about infrastructure. It's a more efficient use of whips and it's more efficient for the economy. Since most of the cities will be settled at the same time, when you're ready to switch out of Slavery after whipping a worker/courthouse in your last city without them, the rest should have a Library/Market and some with a Hammam. This makes a huge impact on economy, yes, but it drastically reduces the number of turns to recover.

Why not run scientists and REX at the same time? Remember, the true spirit of an SE is getting benefits now rather than later, which important in winning the Liberalism race. You can't take your time to get to it.

Here's my dotmap, reasoning below.

http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/3860/mehmeddotmap2rq8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Red dot should be the next city you settle. It is close, which means few maintenance fees, has cows in the first ring to work right away.

Orange Dot is the best I could do for the fishing village in the NW. Too bad you can't settle 1S where that peak is.
White X grabs the Iron and the Cow, and has the fresh water from the lake + a river to the east, so it can farm a few of those grassland tiles. On second thought, the fishing village will get the Iron in it's 3rd ring so White X should be 1E of where I put it so it can work more of those river tiles and drop a few deserts and peaks.
If you don't like White X, Black X overlaps a lot with the capital, but grabs cow and can poach rice from the capital when needed. It could potentially work cottages for the capital to take over later.

Yellow ? - I can't tell if it's on a hill or a peak. If it's a peak the city could be moved 1E , which would pick up 1 useless coast tile but that wouldn't be a big deal. It would lose 1 or 2 river tiles in its SW corner though.

Blue Dot looks like an obvious spot, you already have a warrior parked there like he's waiting for the party to come to him.
Pink is just a good commerce spot, plenty of grassland under the jungle with a few hills and a few river tiles. It fits nicely with the other spots as well.
You'll need a lot of workers for when you want to tackle pink and blue.

The NE island is kinda crappy and low on the priority list. The Yellow X's are the best I could do, they grab the most workable tiles they can. The grey > won't be workable, but at least you can chop the forest there.

I don't know what to do about that iron NE of the capital. There's not a lot of food and quite a few hills and plains. 1S of the Iron wouldn't be terrible, you'll want to fill it eventually or it will be a beachead when the other civs come knocking.

Hope you find it useful.

Instead of light yellow, I'd build a city 1 NE/ 1 NW of the Iron/cows. You'd have a nice coastal city with decent production to build the ships you'll need very badly. Plant a 2nd city east-ish of the peak to grab the wheat. You could then maybe squeeze a small city north of pink and west of your capital. Cottage its few tiles all to pieces and it will be close to the happiness cap.

Disclaimer: All this is back-of-the-envelope figuring.

Much thanks to Scaphism and Fetch for the city site suggestions! I count 11 cities on the big island and 2 on the smaller one. 13 has always been a lucky number for me (go figure!), and that's a pretty good-sized empire.

I'll get to it in the next round, following Whitefire's suggestion to REX and then recover, while researching towards Civil Service and churning out Settlers and workers. The barb city can wait for awhile.

Why not run scientists and REX at the same time? Remember, the true spirit of an SE is getting benefits now rather than later, which important in winning the Liberalism race. You can't take your time to get to it.

Yes it's valid, but as Sis found out, isolated tsarts mean fog busting is a priority. The fewer Barbs wasting your worker turns by pillaging or delaying you by forcing unit construction (that may likely be disbanded later) the better. So it's a question of direct benefits from running scientists or indirect benefits from fewer Barb hassles.

I thought a fair bit about a Cow/Iron city but it's really food poor and far from any fresh water making it difficult to irrigate. I don't think we need another coastal city either there are already plenty and there's no plan in place to take advantage of being in the coast. Maybe if the GLighthouse or Colossus came factored it it might have some merit, but I have a feeling those hammers will be spent on infrastructure instead.

Re: Tech path. I know it was said earlier but you are really low on happiness resources, but the good news is that can kind of help you streamline your research.
Calendar is not any kind of priority, nor is construction since you don't have to go to war. Normally those would be eating up beakers at this point in the game, but they don't have to for you.
Sailing is probably a good pickup for the cheap harbors and lighthouses, and after that you can be off to the liberalism races.
If you had Silver or Gems I would say Metal Casting and Forges would be warranted, but with only 1 additional happiness coming from them I'm just not sure it should be a priority. Hopefully the RNG gods are kind and gems or silver appear in one of your mines - you could use a small blessing like that with the dearth of happiness on your island.

From the map above it looks like you can fit 11 cities onto your island with 2 more on the nub the the NE. Is 11 enough to do what you need? Would the Statue of Liberty be a good goal as well?

*Edit* I meant to address the cities to the NW - I think those should wait as well. The barbs require a large force to take down, a force that is currently fogbusting to keep other barbs away. It will take a fair number or resources to settle the area up there anyways - a few workers and settlers and military to clear/garrison the area, and its far away from the area you've just expanded into. Sisiutil already said it, but I agree with waiting to move up there until you start having some extra time and hammers to devote to getting tha area up and running.

Maybe that could be the Janissary campaign? ;)

Much thanks to Scaphism and Fetch for the city site suggestions! I count 11 cities on the big island and 2 on the smaller one. 13 has always been a lucky number for me (go figure!), and that's a pretty good-sized empire.

I'll get to it in the next round, following Whitefire's suggestion to REX and then recover, while researching towards Civil Service and churning out Settlers and workers. The barb city can wait for awhile.

We have a game plan!!! Woot (http://www.woot.com/).

I have a propensity for not sticking out the tougher games, so I patiently await the next installment. ;)

/SitOnEdgeOfSeat

This is a tough and lonely platform from which to launch, but I think it is clearly your best victory strategy.

I suggest you add scientists in your capital and cottage spam there. Elsewhere build settlers and workers to REX fast. Chop everywhere as needed to get courthouses and more settlers and workers.

Liberalism will be very difficulty given this start, but you might as well try since you need all the same techs for space. Ignore military techs, ignore monarch, ignore astronomy. The AI's will come calling soon enough.

Internet is the wonder that you must get to close the remaining tech gap as we enter the space age.

With this large an island and # of cities, you have a chance for a space victory.

Last night I won a monarch game with a large island start, but I was lucky enough to find the AI's by trireme and so tech and resource trading was easy. I REX'ed my island, kept a small military, built a few wonders, and launched in 1838. The only speedbump was the absence of aluminum of my island. I had to fight one short war to capture it from an AI on a small nearby island.

You have a large enough island, but no contact with the AI's and few happiness resources. Just pray you have aluminum.

The AI's are not usually adept at coordinating space ship part construction - lets hope that proves true here. Diplomacy can also help if they can't resist the need to attack each other.

A starting point might be to grow your existing cities (no whipping, maybe the occasional chop for CH) so that a couple can divert to GS production while the others churn out settlers/workers.

You have a large enough island, but no contact with the AI's and few happiness resources. Just pray you have aluminum.

The AI's are not usually adept at coordinating space ship part construction - lets hope that proves true here. Diplomacy can also help if they can't resist the need to attack each other.

Because of the truth of the 2nd statement, I can question the 1st. I've won space race wins without aluminum, a golden age, the Three Gorges Dam, or the Space Elevator.

I think domination and conquest are out of the question, frankly, but space, cultural, or diplomatic are all on the table. But ReX comes first. My aim is to have all my cities established by the end of the next round. That might mean a little military build-up too, to get rid of that barb city.

Here's my dotmap, reasoning below.

http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/3860/mehmeddotmap2rq8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)



I don't like yellow ?. It takes an area that could easily hold 2 good cities, or 3 good/decent cities, and breaks it up. Here are my alternates for that area:

http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/7758/mehmeddotmap2rq8revise1nk0.jpg

1, once the jungle was cleared, would be a cottage powerhouse, though it would grow slowly. 2 would have 8 coast tiles, thanks to the other island, and could grow quickly with the wheat, working those coastal tiles (net 0 food w/ lighthouse) for 2 :commerce: until cottages could be layed out. 3 would be optional, with a lot of overlap/ocean, but some forests and iron to at least have halfway decent production.

Or, alternative 2:
http://img48.imageshack.us/img48/8430/mehmeddotmap2rq8revise2wm0.jpg

Here, 1 would be more of a hybrid, with the iron mine and lots of cottageable jungle. 2 now has more land to work with and less ocean, but still has the wheat and some coast to hold its own until workers can cottage up. On this one, there are only 2 tiles of overlap, and one is a peak.

Re: Tech path. I know it was said earlier but you are really low on happiness resources, but the good news is that can kind of help you streamline your research.
Calendar is not any kind of priority, nor is construction since you don't have to go to war. Normally those would be eating up beakers at this point in the game, but they don't have to for you.
Sailing is probably a good pickup for the cheap harbors and lighthouses, and after that you can be off to the liberalism races.
If you had Silver or Gems I would say Metal Casting and Forges would be warranted, but with only 1 additional happiness coming from them I'm just not sure it should be a priority. Hopefully the RNG gods are kind and gems or silver appear in one of your mines - you could use a small blessing like that with the dearth of happiness on your island.
On the subject of tech, the dearth of happiness actually makes construction slightly more attractive. Colosseum's are +1 :) which isn't to be sniffed at in this sort of situation, and the +1 forges will give wouldn't hurt either.

However, if you think you'll get to CS during the REX phase with the opportunity to research those techs quickly once you're in Bureaucracy, then go for it.

On a hammer-miser tack, is it worth having one city unconnected to the trade network as a warrior pump for cheap garrisons/MPs?

On the subject of tech, the dearth of happiness actually makes construction slightly more attractive. Colosseum's are +1 :) which isn't to be sniffed at in this sort of situation, and the +1 forges will give wouldn't hurt either.

However, if you think you'll get to CS during the REX phase with the opportunity to research those techs quickly once you're in Bureaucracy, then go for it.

On a hammer-miser tack, is it worth having one city unconnected to the trade network as a warrior pump for cheap garrisons/MPs?
That's what I was thinking--take a page from aelf's recent games and bypass certain techs entirely, then backfill them later or not at all.

As for the Warriors, that's why I've hung on to all those extra ones I built for defense who are now fog-busting.

Oh no, he's taking my advice.

Just to reiterate (and make sure you're doing this right) as many cities as possible should be founded on the same turn. Since we're not worried about maturing cottages, delaying the founding of cities for 15+ turns won't cause a major problem, unless Barbs start settling. For this REX, I would suggest 5 cities. Going by the below dotmap, these 5 would cover the pinky city in the NW, the eastern red city, the SE pink and blue, and one city in the NE to fog bust, of your choosing. Then, start on a courthouse until you have a pop of 2, start on a worker, whip the worker, finish/whip the courthouse then jump to Caste System.

http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/7758/mehmeddotmap2rq8revise1nk0.jpg

Your existing cities *must* have a Library and Hammam before this point. I would almost say that Hammers are more important than commerce right now. Anyway, I would normally suggest you staying in Slavery longer, but now that you have Hammams, it's a waste to whip your large populations away on markets, grocers, etc. when they could be producing you GSs and beakers. Anyway, once you fog bust, you can go back to slow expansion. Although, make sure you claim all of the land shortly after you make first contact. Some AIs are quick to grab Astronomy after Optics and I'd hate to see a foreign city settled.

The make or break here will be how you manage your workers. Until you get Civil Service, you're better off improving the tiles around the pink and blue cities. Clearing jungle, or even constructing roads, in the other cities is a waste. Just improve one tile in order to help along the Courthouse, then move away.

And if this all fails, at least Sis won't be to blame ;D.

EDIT

I fgailed to address the issue of the Barb city in the NW. I would personally raze and rebuild it. It's in a horrible location, and shifting it 1 or 2 tiles SE will make for a much better city. I haven't loaded the save to see what units it contains, or the type, but I would raze it withing the expansion parameters I go by.

Every city should have an Axeman. If you're going to settle 5 cities (possibly 6), you need 5 units. We have 2 fogbusters that can turn into defenders, so we will require 3 more axemen. These 3 axemen should be enough to raze that Barb city, unless they go crazy with the Archers. Again, I don't know your existing military, but it may behoove you to whip 1 Axeman and build another before starting on Settlers. That way you can raze the city for gold and lessen the threat of the settler you send to the NW.

I don't understand how people are still suggesting that Liberalism is possible. If my math is right 1100AD (the early end of the AI's Liberalism window) is only 46 turns away. 100 turns after the restart would take it to 1424AD, around the end of the time when you can expect the AIs to get Liberalism. CS is currently showing as taking 75 turns to research. This can be speeded up somewhat by city development and reassigning citizens. However any sort of expansion in the next round will prevent any significant speedup. And REXing will kill the research rate for a while. Even if Sisiutil could somehow get CS done in time he would need to generate 4 GSs to completely lightbulb Phil, Paper and Edu. Given the current low population and food supply I don't see how that's possible. And even if the GSs could somehow be produced in time that would still leave Liberalism to research which isn't going to be quick.

I wonder if any of the people advocating trying for Liberalism would want to indicate how many turns they think it will take.

My advice for Sisiutil at this point would be:

Ignore the Liberalism path for now and focus on more immediately useful techs. Currency then finish Sailing then Monarchy. These three can be finished in about the same time as CS and will provide more immediate benefits.

The reason you are so low in GNP is because you are so low in population. This means more cities with higher population, so REX and stop whipping. Infrastructure isn't as important as gaining population at this point, and all of the cities will have decent production available to build any needed buildings.

I would reconfigure Istanbul to work all the food tiles and cottages but no mines so it can grow quickly to size 8. At that point switch to building a settler and work all the food and mine tiles (no cottages). That will allow settlers to be produced in 8 turns, so in around 40 turns you can settle 4 more cities. I've included a dotmap as to where I think cities should go in the NE part of the continent. I would settle the red, then yellow, then green then orange. The yellow city could be moved 1E to get the cows, but I think the site I've indicated provides a little higher productivity in the long term. The blue dot city will make a good ironworks city with around 50 base hammers, but I don't think it needs to be settled any time soon since you don't need iron or production at this point. The purple dots in the NW and on the island can wait until later, although you could be seeing AI galleons within the next 100 turns.

While Istanbul is building the settlers Edirne and Ankara should be building missionaries, workers and any additional military needed. You might want to think about building chariots instead of axes at this point since they're cheaper.

BTW your current military is incorrectly deployed. You have axes defending your cities while warriors are on barb sentry duty. The roles should be reversed. You want to use the strong units to keep the barbs away from your cities and their precious tile improvements.

I don't understand how people are still suggesting that Liberalism is possible.

/me sighs. For the fourth time, it's not just about winning the Liberalism race. The techs that Liberalism opens up are vital for any economy, so not going that path is stupid.

Milk the barb city for a level 4 unit.

Just realized after Validator's post that the light blue BFC in Scaphism's dotmap is misplaced. Given that, I'd either switch to Val's dotmap or use my second variation on Scaphism's, but with red city 1 moved 1 W to use more land.

75 turns for CS???
that's clearly leading nowhere...

Aren't you working your commerce tiles?
Don't you have scientists???

/me sighs. For the fourth time, it's not just about winning the Liberalism race. The techs that Liberalism opens up are vital for any economy, so not going that path is stupid.

You're right. Communism and Communism are absolutely vital for any economy.

Just realized after Validator's post that the light blue BFC in Scaphism's dotmap is misplaced. Given that, I'd either switch to Val's dotmap or use my second variation on Scaphism's, but with red city 1 moved 1 W to use more land.

Ack. Apologies all, I had Istanbul (the capital!) in the wrong spot. I blame it on all those sugar tiles obscuring the location. ;)

And I will definitely concede that the light yellow ? on my map is the area I'm most unsure of. If extra cities could be squeezed in (and useful) then go for it, I'm just not sure how to fit it in there myself.

I would recommend that Sisiutil makes use of Organised trait to run as many cities as possible on the island, half price courthouses and cheap civics reduce city maintenance costs significantly. There are going to be health/happy caps for a while yet. Twenty size 10 cities work as many tiles as ten size 20 cities . Every tile that can be worked mid-game will help Sisiutil overcome the isolation and catch up.

Its also worth considering heading for astronomy instead of liberalism to open up overseas trade routes asap.

Round 4: 420 AD to 1280 AD

A long round because, when you're isolated, it takes a while for anything to happen.

I started off by running a couple of scientists in Istanbul to help research and to hopefully generate a Great Scientist, though I was well aware I had GP competition from the Oracle.

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC15/ALC15_1280ADa_01.jpg

I decide to follow Validator's recommendations regarding techs, pursuing Currency and then Monarchy. Civil Service was just going to take too darn long. My builds were a mix: granaries, courthouses, libraries, hammams, workers, settlers, Axemen.

Meanwhile, I started expanding, beginning with this city:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC15/ALC15_1280ADa_02.jpg


Why that one first? I wanted access to the iron. That barb city was a threat and a nuisance and I wanted to take care of it ASAP. Some Swordsmen would fit the bill in that regard; I built a couple of barracks to give them City Raider I promotions. Plus this city was a step towards fog-busting the rest of the island.

Several turns later, I finally finished researching Currency:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC15/ALC15_1280ADa_03.jpg

That seemed to help the economy a little bit, though of course I only have domestic trade routes at the moment.

I generated my next Great Person, unfortunately not the Great Scientist I was hoping for, but a Great Prophet. He would have lightbulbed Polytheism, which was hardly worth bothering about at this point. So I settled him in the holy city instead. The 5 gold would help the economy, and the 2 hammers were welcome in a city that's short on them.

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC15/ALC15_1280ADa_04.jpg

And then everybody and his dog started showing up just to rub in how backward I am.

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC15/ALC15_1280ADa_05.jpg

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC15/ALC15_1280ADa_06.jpg

There were more to come, but first, I finished researching Monarchy...

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC15/ALC15_1280ADa_07.jpg

... and switched to Hereditary Rule right away.

I also managed to raze that barb city, at the cost of a couple of Axemen:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC15/ALC15_1280ADa_08.jpg

Yes, and I even got a Worker out of it in the bargain. I was tempted to keep it, but it's not exactly in an ideal spot. Not one of all your helpful dotmaps had a city in that location.

More civs continued to show up. Seems like everybody else discovered Optics at around the same time. Worse still, I can't help thinking they're all tech-trading amongst each other.

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC15/ALC15_1280ADa_09.jpg

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC15/ALC15_1280ADa_10.jpg

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC15/ALC15_1280ADa_12.jpg

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC15/ALC15_1280ADa_11.jpg

Evidently the best was saved for last. :love:

So there I am, isolated and in dead last place, without a tech to trade even to lowly Huyana, who is Catherine's vassal and God only knows what else. I'm torn between feeling sorry for the guy and suffering pangs of jealously.

Catherine was the first to discover Liberalism, while Cyrus was the first to circumnavigate the globe. Cyrus was also, evidently, the first to discover Astronomy (I'm not sure what Catherine chose as her Liberalism tech). A fact from which I could immediately benefit:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC15/ALC15_1280ADa_13.jpg

Fortunately, I was now in a position to rapidly settle the rest of my island, so I don't anticipate the AI settling on my little landmass anytime soon. Invasion, however, is another matter, as I'm dead last in power. But I'll get into that in the next post, which deals with the state of the world.

The State of the World, 1280 AD

Let's start off with a look at the map:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC15/ALC15_1280ADb_01.jpg


So I now have 11 cities, which is more than enough to pursue a cultural win.

To help in that potential regard, I deliberately avoided spreading Confucianism to my new cities using missionaries. I had better things to spend hammers on and the shrine in Edirne ensured that some of those cities converted on their own. But if you look closely, you might notice that Bursa managed to pick up Buddhism!

That could be helpful in several regards. Obviously, if I go for a cultural victory, the more religions, the better (they've all been founded now, by the way). In addition, Cyrus, Frederick, and Ragnar are Buddhists, so I could potentially join their diplomatic block by converting.

I'm hoping some of my other new cities will pick up another religion or two on their own. Judaism would be nice, since that would give me the choice between the Buddhist or the Jewish diplomatic blocks. Hinduism would be nice for culture, but I'm sure everybody else already hates Monty and I have no desire to join his club. However, if and when Monty gets Astronomy, that will likely spell trouble for me.

On another note, I haven't settled that northeast island yet. Should I bother at this point? I don't have any Settlers ready to go (though I am building a Galley), and I wouldn't be surprised if Cyrus beat me there.

The domestic advisor:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC15/ALC15_1280ADb_02.jpg

A mix of builds, but all of them civilian. I figure I'm safe from military incursion for some time, and besides, what would I throw at them if I was invaded? Nevertheless, a conversion to Buddhism to gain some allies is sounding more attractive the more I think about it.

Civics:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC15/ALC15_1280ADb_03.jpg

It would be nice to have and run one of the religions civics, but that clearly isn't an option yet. This is going to be one of those games where I bypass a lot of techs, I think. I'm not even thinking about wonders anymore. I'll be lucky just to survive, let alone win.

However, I think it's time I switched to Caste System, agreed?

Diplomacy:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC15/ALC15_1280ADb_04.jpg

Yeah, I suppose it would be helpful to see how everybody feels about everybody else, though you can gather some of that. Cathy and Huayna are tolerating Monty (they have Open Borders agreements with him), while the Buddhist block is clearly not happy with him (no OB). And Monty is the one who likes me the least. As I said, if and when he gets Galleons, I'm going to have to watch out.

Technologies... brace yourself!

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC15/ALC15_1280ADb_05.jpg

Mind you, I could potentially do without a lot of those techs, like Hunting and Archery, for example. I don't even need Alphabet in a big hurry since (a) everyone else has it and (b) I have no techs to trade anyway.

I don't see any way to rectify this situation in a hurry. I'm thinking I should finish Civil Service, then research Calendar so I can get my sugar plantations going for some more trade, hopefully, once everyone else starts getting Astronomy. After that, I'm thinking Machinery and Engineering in order to defend myself just in case someone gets any funny ideas.

Active trade deals:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC15/ALC15_1280ADb_06.jpg

Religion:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC15/ALC15_1280ADb_07.jpg

So I have 3 cities which could, potentially, still acquire another religion. I suppose that's an argument in favour of settling more cities, but I really think I need to focus on building up the ones I have. I mean, my research is down to 10%! Granted I expanded pretty quickly in the last few turns, but any more cities, especially further away on that rock, for example, and I might start losing the units I need to boost happiness in my cities.

Victory conditions:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC15/ALC15_1280ADb_08.jpg

The one bit of good news there is the land area I have, and keep in mind several of my newest cities have not experienced their first border pop. That, I think, bodes well: I have a lot more land--and very good land at that--than several of the other civs. I just have to stay alive long enough to benefit from it.

The power graph:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC15/ALC15_1280ADb_09.jpg

Not so good. Even vassalized Huayna looks like he could kick my butt. If, of course, he had Galleons. But Catherine can't be far away from getting those. There's a problem: if I convert to Buddhism, it'll tick her off, and who's to say my Buddhist buddies would come to may aid? Nevertheless, some allies are better than none.

Demographics:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC15/ALC15_1280ADb_10.jpg

As I said, the good news there is that I've got land, lots of land: I'm #2 in land area. And I'm number 1 in my approval rating. Well, all that indicates is that, as usual, I'm probably not whipping enough. I guess the other bit of good news here is that they're nowhere to go but up!

And we finally have some information about who built all those wonders:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC15/ALC15_1280ADb_11.jpg

Cathy's been a busy girl. And here I was thinking it was an Industrious leader, but clearly the only leader with that trait--Huayna--has been falling down in that regard (and several others, evidently, since he's now a mere vassal). Though he did manage to build Chichen Itza; well, big whoop, Mr. Industrious, you built the worst wonder in the game! I'm dead last but at least I managed the Oracle! Russia must have sources of both stone and marble, I'm thinking.

Anyway, that's where things stand. On the positive side, I think I can get the cottage economy going to restore my economy and research. I don't think the tech lead is as insurmountable as it looks so long as I pick my techs carefully.

In that regard, I have a choice: I can either plod along and pick up techs I need that the AI civs already have, or I can gamble on more expensive and advanced techs in hopes of trading them. Frankly, at this point, I'm so far behind that the former approach makes more sense. By the time I nab a tech, everyone else is likely to have it. The only exception might be lightbulbing, but we'll see. I truly believe that a late-game Internet bee-line will be required for a space race win.

The key, I think, is going to be avoiding an invasion, or dealing with one if and when it does occur. Diplomacy is going to be very important. So a conversion to Buddhism might be the key first move in the next round.

Its certainly a Challenge.

At least you'll get a discount on known techs now. Once cities start growing your GNP is likely to increase (it could even double to 2 :lol: ).

It might be worth stockpiling any GPs you get (and work on getting some more) so that you might have a chance of some decent lightbulbs later.

I think you're better off with NSR; its safer to have no friends than to have just one enemy. Tech-trading is certainly something for the future (probably 17th century).

Good Luck ;) .

Don't listen to the pessimists.

I think you're better off with NSR; its safer to have no friends than to have just one enemy.

I'm not so sure about this assertion. One problem, of course, is that no state religion would instantly take the happiness cap down by 1. It also renders any religious civics I manage to get useless, aside from Free Religion (but of course I don't have any religious civics now and I'm not targeting any). But I'll wait to see what everyone else thinks of this idea.

Well, what to say? The REXing is (almost)done, now just cut the jungle and cottage it. The small island is crap; let Cyrus take it if he wants to.
About religion, maybe go budhist would help with the Buda guys and it wouldn't hurt the diplo with the others more than staying confucian. So, why not?
With luck, you'll get a GS in 19 turns. I think that you should lightbulb it ( It would give you one less step to go...).
About defence ( against Monty , most surely ) ,Gunpowder is too far away... and you can't rely only in catakazies. So Machinery and Engineering it is...
About victory Types, you seem to be thinking in cultural. I must concur that the space prospecs are starting to be dim, but if you want to go cultural with two religions, you must go to Caste System ASAP ( Music GA and Sistine are gone, so you'll probably need Mercantilism and SoL ) and let cities grow ( one of your cities will need long chain irrigation for farming).

Even if Cyrus, Fred, or Huayna founded Christianity, it is at 1%; 0 spread. There will not be a change in the religious blocks. Monty is a punching bag.

Do you think everyone has theology already? Maybe since they all have philosophy. They are all running organized religion.

If not, you can trade theology around... build a temple(s) in the oracle city and run a priest(s). Even if you never run a priest in that city again, the temples are happiness. Run some scientists too since philosophy wouldn't be bad (though everyone has it for sure). Convert to Buddhism now for the trade benefits needed when the great priest is born and to give them time to hate Monty/Jews. Research Mono, lightbulb theo. Trade it for CS, fued, Alpha, philosophy. Convert to no religion and trade with the Jewish block (no Monty trade should be necessary). Convert to Confucianism. Change civic to organized if you want buildings, theocracy for a few turns if you are worried that the Jews or Buddhists will hate you more than Monty. Even if they all have theology, you might still want access to organized because your are building buildings everywhere and theocracy since you need to build troops before astronomy can be militarily leveraged by the AI (10-30 turns?). Or you can go pacifism and spam artists, but I think it is too early for that.

Side comment: Without Monarchy, Priests would have lightbulbed Theology and then CS. That would have been better than unused happiness now with temples needed for cultural victory.

Edit: Since the Chapel is built, they probably all have theology. What are you going to trade?

You might get theology or CS, lightbulb paper, and find them offering education. Engineering? Are pikes that much better than crossbows, longbows, or maces? Catakazie vs stacks, spearakazie vs pillaging knights.

Pray for war. Since you have nothing to trade, you might try gifting anything you can to the most powerful buddhist, declaring on Monty, and then begging Buddhists to join the war. It's an almost suicidal attempt at causing a dogpile, but if anyone is going to xp_farm off inept AI naval invasions it might as well be you and if the dogpile happens, you are 1/2 way to igniting world war - If Monty goes Jew (he would have to lose hindi founding city), he could get help. You may not get peace from him, but you will not suffer casualities outside cultural borders.

Since you are not winning the liberalism race, you are not likey to have a tech up on the AIs again. Do you really want to just pray for the world war you need to ensure cultural freedom or Internet use, or are you going to do something about it? If you wait much longer and Monty picks you anyway, the invasion will be SoD instead of a furious trickle. If the Jews hit you because your power is so weak, Monty will be a one man dogpile. You need farms because you will never be able to defend your seafood (how close are you to astronomy/chemistry/combustion?).

I don't think research can end at ironclads. It will need to end at liberalism. No US or printing for cottages. Plod to liberal and spam artists after mono and perhaps theo. Ragnar is probably itching to fight with those berserkers about to finish researching +1move galleons.

Then again, Monty and Russia have border difficulties... a civic change by one of them could ignite them.

Was fun, next game. Tried peaceful ploding. Russia declared with grens before I got construction (1430).

At least we have a monopoly on cows!

I'd leave the little island unsettled. You can't afford the maintenence and in addition cities there need to be well-defended or they'll attract assaults.

I'm really not happy with your city placement since you're not making good use of riverine grasslands. There's quite a few that no city can use, but they're one of the strongest benefits to your position. It looks like you founded your expansion cities like early cities (where the goal is to grab resources) and not late cites (where the goal is a large sweep for optimizing cottages or mines long-term) Malatya (sp?) in particular is grossly inferior to a city on the rivermouth but is still close enough to really cramp a city there. You only have one city using the other river and you really should have two. This is particularly bad if you want to shoot for for a cultural victory; I only see two good candidates for legendary cities, Istanbul and Diyarbakar. Too late for now, I guess.

I think you need more workers. The cottage spam should already be apparent by now but I'm not seeing it. That's the point of all these cities; use it.

Allies are useless against invasions. You'll get invaded if somebody sees you as a juicy target, which means you need a decent military. Your allies' attacks on your enemy's homeland, even if effective (unlikely :rolleyes: ) it won't do anything to stop the units on ships toward you. So you'll be on your own anyway. All your coastal cities should have good *defensive* units and walls. That'll cut down on the bullseye you have painted on you. NSR is the way to go eventually but I suspect you can't afford it until Liberalism because of your happy caps. I would push Guilds and Gunpowder soon because you're going to need the Jans after all as defensive units. You need Gunpowder before Monty gets Astronomy.

Well, the All Leader Challenge is living up to its name in this one. :lol:

Opening the save to find Monty tops in power is always disturbing.

First, on the domestic front, good work settling the rest of the continent. Now, how to pay for it? I'm gonna raise the possibility of doing something I wouldn't normally consider: building Wealth in Ankara & Konya, at least for the time being. I would say to concede the island to the NE. I honestly don't think that island will make much difference as far as whether you'll win. If you're invaded, it'll be hard to defend & you might end up building up a city for the AI to take away from you. Also, I don't think Konya should be building a Hammam. It's way below both caps ATM.

If you switch those two cities to Wealth, science can be bumped up to 50% without running a deficit, which cuts CS from 13 turns to 7 turns, which similar dividends for further research. Once other cities get infrastructure online & cottages mature, those two cities can build their own infrastructure. Or if worse comes to worst, rotate cities building Wealth. Drastic times call for drastic measures.

I'm trying to figure out what the Woodsman II Warrior is doing in the middle of settled land. Might as well move him to garrison somewhere & delete some lower level Warrior to save on upkeep. Or is he to the be the garrison for the island city?

Your cities are all at least 3 below the happiness cap. One of the reasons for getting CS earlier is to irrigate the cities that need it to grow. Then again, if you had gone CS first, you probably wouldn't have Currency yet & can't build Wealth to pay the bills. But then again, going CS first would have allowed you to whip some infrastructure probably. So I'm not sure which approach leaves you coming out ahead. Anyway, now that CS will be coming in, farm as much as needed to get to happiness cap & whip away.

You've got stone, so you might want to build Walls in your coastal cities. They boost Power rating & that could have a deterrent effect on a would-be invader. Walls can buy you time to bring up reinforcements to a city that's had an enemy stack landed next to it. Sometimes, the AI breaks up a stack after a couple of failed attacks & starts pillaging the countryside, so you can pick them off one by one. If your cities were more established, the 50% defense bonus isn't so important, but 50% is nothing to sneeze at in cities with minimal culture.

One more thing on the domestic front, some of your cities are in places where they'll need 2 border pops to cover up all the land that can be settled by an AI. You should probably decide how you want to deal with that & design your gameplan with that in mind. You could switch over to Caste System & run artists to get the required pops & preclude the AI from settling in some nook on your continent that'll result in border clashes. If it's Cyrus or Fred, that's not so bad, but Monty & Ragnar get extra ticked over close borders.

I would seriously consider dedicating a city to keep pumping out military. If you wait until you tech to Machinery & Engineering to start building up your army, it might be too late to offer any resistance to an invasion, which is probably not a matter of if so much as when.

Joining the Buddhist bloc could pay off, as once those guys get to Pleased, you can start begging stuff from three AIs. In fact, switching over to Buddhism would probably get you to Pleased with all three pretty quickly. Ragnar is the most volatile of the three Buddhists, but his favorite civic is HR, so hopefully, that will get him not to attack you.

As far as foreign policy, I think you'd be wise to give in to any demands from Monty or Cathy, until you've had time to build up a credible military. Assuming you switch to Buddhism, I'd tell your co-religionists to beat it if they demand anything, as a -1 penalty from them can be compensated for by the shared religion bonus, over time. Pray that in combination with giving tribute, the favorite civics bonus will get you to Pleased with Cathy too, over time. Then again, I have been attacked by her even at Pleased.

Techwise, I would recommend Feudalism to give you a decent all-around defensive unit. Build Longbows & Catapults. The Longbows should be able to hold down the fort at a city under attack, long enough to bring reinforcements, provided you have three Longbows & Walls. And the Cats will soften up enemy stacks for your offensive-challenged Longbows to take out. Teching to Machinery & Engineering will take too much time. After Feudalism, Paper, Education, Gunpowder. Then, go for Democracy to get Emancipation-powered cottage growth.

Bear in mind too that if you ask an AI to gift you a tech, they can somehow sense how far along you are in researching it. So if you beg them again after some more research on it, they might agree. Being diligent in checking these things could save you valuable time, as you're playing some serious catchup.

Victory conditions, I think is still too early to tell what to gun for. Cultural is certainly possible. Space probably less so, but not out of the question. Diplomacy may also be possible too, depending on how events unfold. I wouldn't be surprised if you find yourself #1 in population towards the end of the game, as you've got some good land. Mix in some happy/health resources from your Buddhist buddies & you might find yourself on the UN ballot without ever asking to be on it.

I've got to continue to throw my support behind a culture victory here, but I think the order of the day is cottage spam and development. You have to start making this great grassy island work for you. Keep along the 'cottage' tech path.

As far a diplomacy goes I think switching to Buddhism is a no-brainer. You are in HR so you can make up the happy, and you are not running any religous civics. As someone else said, moving to Buddhism is not going to be any worse than staying confusion, and it could potentialy be much better. You might even be able to get the AI's to gift you a tech or two.

Cottage cottage cottage = Culture Victory, I still have faith.

Edit: Also, remember that being in the bottom half of the score card gives you immunity from WFYABTA. Probably won't matter, but something to keep in the back of your head

As far as foreign policy, I think you'd be wise to give in to any demands from Monty or Cathy, until you've had time to build up a credible military. Assuming you switch to Buddhism, I'd tell your co-religionists to beat it if they demand anything, as a -1 penalty from them can be compensated for by the shared religion bonus, over time. Pray that in combination with giving tribute, the favorite civics bonus will get you to Pleased with Cathy too, over time. Then again, I have been attacked by her even at Pleased.

i can't stand cathy, she is one of my most hatest leaders. izzy is a fanatic and i think most people hate her more, but at least she has a reason. cathy just gets in these moods. she is the one AI i don't even try to get along with, since it does me no good to even bother. you can bribe her to go to war against somebody she is officially Friendly with. so what is the point of even getting to Friendly? but i know S likes her.

Edit: Also, remember that being in the bottom half of the score card gives you immunity from WFYABTA. Probably won't matter, but something to keep in the back of your head

very good point, i doubt S is used to that situation. it matters sometimes! i use it to my advantage in every deity OCC game i try :lol:. it only gives you immunity with the people that are in the bottom half with you, so the chances that you'll get the very best techs aren't that hot, but it doesn't hurt. keep an eye on who's in the bottom half, they'll act a lot more like mansa than you're used to if you're down there too, it's kinda cool.

Read that (excellent) strategy thread carefully. You're only immune to WFYABTA if both of you are in the bottom half of the scoreboard.

But definitely, Sisiutil is doing better than I expected. And he's right in that religions should be used to boast hapiness, not improve relations. You're not trying to survive as long as you can, you're trying to win. It's like trying to win in a poker game rather than trying to survive until you're second place. Go for the win.

And I also have an unusual request: do you mind listing exactly what techs you have at the moment? Like, all of them? Tech choice is critical at this point.

I doubt it's a grim as it appears, if the the demographics hold any truth. Too bad about the Janissaries, but...c'est le vie, eh? Spam the cottages....and I'd actually advocate some thought of domination. How often do we see you fighting serious wars with more modern units? When was the last time you employed carriers and marines and tanks and the like in a serious war against a near-equal opponent? I don't think I ever have, but in my experience, warring with all those shiny toys is actually quite enjoyable, especially with air superiority. Just a crazy thought....

I would research techs that would get you better military options and the best civics options available.

Ideally, you'll want to stick with HR until you can get down the Constitution/Democracy path and then decide whether Representation or Universal Suffrage is the way to go. If you want to run more Scientists, then make the switch to Caste System. Free Religion is the only religious civic you need concern yourself with, unless you think you can pull a Cultural victory off. As always, it's either Mercantilism or Free Market for the economic civic, depending on the situation. And Bureaucracy is what you want as well.

Diplomacy-wise, I don't think it matters what you do with religions, because Monty will start preparing to invade once he's got Astronomy. So you should see if you can push Ragnar into war with Monty. Ragnar will likely never switch to Free Religion since he founded Buddhism, but the other two in the Buddhist block might, so Ragnar is the one you should try to make your friend. The Jewish block could be broken up if Frederick gets Liberalism.

The game is salvageable but its going to take some time.The first stage is actually surviving long enough to begin to catch up. At the moment its likely than any AI will get to astronomy and miltrad before you get to feudalism and build up longbows or machinery for crossbows, especially if you're going for civil service and calendar to improve economy. At least you have a lot of cows to trade.
If any AI lands on your island with half a dozen cavalry then your game is in serious jeapordy. You have nothing to bribe any AI into war on your behalf; even a GM trade mission will need optics which is many turns away. That's why I said no friends is better than one enemy. Keep a low profile and hope for the best.

On the diplomatic side, you should convert to Buddhism first. Running HR would placate Catherine and her vassal (though the latter's opinion doesn't count) while Buddhism will make you chummy with that bloc. Can't do much about Monty, though, so be on guard.

It seems everyone's bent on Cultural Victory but what about Diplomatic? You should be able to get all buddhists to vote for you. Prioritising biology and gifting it to your newfound buddies would bring in sufficient votes I think.
Perhaps go beat up Monty a bit and grab some of his land as well. No one will mind anyway and you can get a nice mutual struggle bonus out of it too. I'd consider a fake war with Monty for that purpose alone in fact; all you need is a good naval defense to keep him at bay.
I'm not entirely convinced of cultural regardless. You only have two religions and it's rather late to start on such a victory. I suspect an AI may launch well before you get there to be honest.

For the immediate tech issue: cottage up everything (why so few cottages by the way?) and you should catch up nicely. In the mean time you could try begging techs from the other civs. Most of the techs have virtually no value to the AIs since everyone except you have them already, so even with a mere Cautious attitude you may net a few.
I would go settle that smallish island myself and even squeeze in another city to the north of your capital. But again, that's mainly assuming cultural victory is far from in the bag; extra cities would only be useful for space or diplomatic. Still, it'd make a total of about 15 cities which is a very sizeable empire on a standard map.

Finally a small nitpick: why did you put that city to the NW of your capital in its current spot? Sure, you grab the iron but you have a source of iron already and you'd be able to hook the resource after second border pop anyway. If, however, you had put the city 1e you would have traded no less than 5 desert/mountain tiles for workable ones!

It seems everyone's bent on Cultural Victory but what about Diplomatic? You should be able to get all buddhists to vote for you.

At this point I think diplomatic is much more viable than cultural. I thought cultural had promise when Christianity, Taoism, and Islam were still on the table, but Sisiutil said all religions have been founded now, so at this point for a cultural win, we'd be either working with just two religions or crossing our fingers and hoping one or two more spread to us. Normally if you want to win by culture with only a few religions, you do it with wonders, but Catherine has seen to it that we won't be doing that. With Montezuma willing to attack anyone whose power isn't twice his own, the slow buildup to victory could be extremely risky.

It's fairly easy to see what needs to be done for a diplomatic win. I'm not saying it will be an easy win -- just that the route to victory is obvious. Clearly Catherine will be your opponent. She leads on score by a substantial margin, she has the land and population lead, plus she has a vassal. There's no way she gives up that lead. Therefore, you need to be friends with all of the Buddhists. If you can afford the happiness ding from losing state religion in most of your cities, I'd strongly consider the conversion to Buddhism. And then spread it fast.

Perhaps go beat up Monty a bit and grab some of his land as well. No one will mind anyway and you can get a nice mutual struggle bonus out of it too. I'd consider a fake war with Monty for that purpose alone in fact; all you need is a good naval defense to keep him at bay.

Mutual war is always a great diplomatic tool, especially when you have a universal enemy like Montezuma; however, at this point we have nothing (and I mean nothing) that we can use as bribes, so the only way it turns into anything besides Montezuma kicking our ass is by luck. This is something that we should remember for later after we (hopefully) catch up a little on technology.

Once you start making some friends, don't forget to go begging for free stuff. You're so far behind that you should be able to get a free outdated technology out of most of the AI's if they like you enough.

If you can get your relations to pleased with some of the civs then you can ask for some of the old cheap techs. I have done this before when I feel behind on an island start and I was able to get about 5 or so of the basic techs that I had skipped past.

This game definitely has the potential for a replay of this gem in aelf's first Immortal challenge. Speaking of which, This image from that game is another good reminder of the power of democracy:

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j76/aelflune/Immortal%20Challenge/Immortal180.jpg

[aelf was the Aztecs, and the sudden vertical ascent of his GNP marks where he converted to emancipation.]

Given the internet, your skill at trading, the amount of fairly good land you have settled (just not developed), and the potential to make nice with the Buddhists, I'd say even a space race isn't impossible. :crazyeye:

Whatever victory you go for, the biggest asset will be that the AI doesn't focus on a win, like a human can. So while they're eventually going to launch, they'll also divert to pick up techs like flight, mass media, composites, etc., giving you some extra time to cross one finish line or another (hopefully).

you need to focus on growth and economy. Right now you are working almost no cotteages whatsoever. There are some cities you can whip in granaries in. Get the cities to grow as fast as possible and start working those cottages. You have way too many cities focusing on production. This just wont hold if your not gonna go for any sort of military victory. Keep whatever tricks you need to not get invaded then focus on growing all your cities on those cottages. You probably need more workers too.

As other have mentioned just beeling to democracy asap. Thats quite expencive so you need to get more cottages out there and worked asap. You realy shouldnt bother with production in most of your cities as he whip should take care of that problem. Dont let your cities work any title with under 2 food unless you cant avoid it(plains cottages are still better than plains farms...), hopefully most should have a surplus of 3, 4 or more and grow quite rappidly. Both philosophy(bulbed hopefully) and nationalism and constitution should be easy enough to trade away for sevral techs to let you catch up somewhat(hopefully you can get paper and printing press for them at least).

1 or max 2 production cities should be more than enough to cover all your needs in that area...

another good reminder of the power of democracy.

I might add that the exhilaration can be quite addictive ;)

Wow, I'm glad you didn't listen to me and move up a level. Although I think you have a nice chance of pulling out a victory, if you lose, do you replay with Mehmed? I would like to see that, as then there could be a legitimate janissary rush.
Assuming you aren't isolated again...

you need to focus on growth and economy. Right now you are working almost no cotteages whatsoever. There are some cities you can whip in granaries in. Get the cities to grow as fast as possible and start working those cottages. You have way too many cities focusing on production. This just wont hold if your not gonna go for any sort of military victory. Keep whatever tricks you need to not get invaded then focus on growing all your cities on those cottages. You probably need more workers too.

As other have mentioned just beeling to democracy asap. Thats quite expencive so you need to get more cottages out there and worked asap. You realy shouldnt bother with production in most of your cities as he whip should take care of that problem. Dont let your cities work any title with under 2 food unless you cant avoid it(plains cottages are still better than plains farms...), hopefully most should have a surplus of 3, 4 or more and grow quite rappidly. Both philosophy(bulbed hopefully) and nationalism and constitution should be easy enough to trade away for sevral techs to let you catch up somewhat(hopefully you can get paper and printing press for them at least).

1 or max 2 production cities should be more than enough to cover all your needs in that area...

I fully agree. Growth and commerce should be the name of the game right now.

Cottages are being built but some cities aren't working as many as they could be, Istanbul is a good example.

Also, you have a couple of cities that can whip Granaries at the moment :whipped:

Why is Konya building a Hammam? It doesn't need it yet.

With Civil Service right around the corner, I would cottage the heck out of Istanbul. It should be able to contribute a lot of your science in the near future.

I would assign a city or two for military production, use Izmir as a GP farm and focus the rest of your empire on commerce. Hopefully you can start catching up and/or beelining to techs the AI values highly for trade. If you're going for space, Democracy is definitely a priority as others have pointed out, although a bit in the long term. You have neither happiness issues, nor are you running any religious civic so I would convert to Buddhism and hope to be able to beg some techs.

hmm.

everybody reccomend cottage, but it is already late and your cities are way too small. In my opinion you need at least +5 food in *each* city (+6 if no granary). +5 is really a magic number that can halve the number of turns required to get a decent size.

Whatever win you choose to pursue, you need your cities to be at least 12-15.
that means farms. Besides +5, there is no real gain, so you can still cottage other tiles. It is too late for a full SE, but the HE road is better, as you get both size and the financial benefit of towns.

and you want to grow now, not when biology kicks in.

btw, first to liberalism was acheivable with a full SE, i missed it for 3 turns and did some very weedy moves, starting from your 580BC save.

It looks bad, but hope remains. Maybe a Defensive Pact with a strong leader could discourage Monty and his flying circus from attacking you. Are you sure you can pull out a culture victory though? I would recommend a beeline to Fiber Optics for Internet if that isn't unreasonable. The AI could launch a space ship before you even finish the Internet, unless you're confident you can tech fast enough.

BTW, I moved up to Prince last week, and your guides are part of what gave me the confidence to finally move up.:goodjob:

I have read a lot of post regarding just these ALC, and they have always given me some insight on how people play, and whats good and whats not.
Recently I am involved in a game with an isolated start just like the one in this game, although I am much better off since I am playing Bismark, and as an indostriuous leader managed to pick up the pyramids, colossus, and the great library, and all those wonders made me the tech leader in the game for now. Although my landmass is much less, and could only fit 5 cities on the island, so I am wondering if to go for astronomy, which would destroy my colossus, but give me galleons for invading others.

But I have a question, since the game is similar to this one, would 5 cities be enough for a cultural win???

The game is certainly winnable if you aren't invaded. You might want to whip courthouses and granaries (both cheap) in all your cities before switching to caste system.

A potential solution to tech deficit may be to study GP preferences and prereq techs etc. and go for a deep beeline (burning 3-4 GP very quickly to get an advanced monopoly tech then trade it for loads of others). In the long term cottage economy is the way to go however.

It might also be worth building some small cities on the island. You will need every tile you can get and you can't guarantee acquiring overseas possessions quickly or easily.

@menssana: if you are financial, do not obsolete colosus

NE Island: Forget it, the AIs are on their way and you can't afford more cities or spending your hammers and food on settlers right now.

Caste System: At the very least whip granaries in all cities before switching. Granaries enable growth, which you need in order to run specialists.

Don't forget Expansive's +25% Hammers towards Worker production. There may not be many cottages now but Sisiutil just founded 7 cities last round. This dip is inevitable.

If/When you get Feudalism, you could think about switching to Serfdom for your army of workers to speed up how quickly they improve tiles. I don't think Feudalism is a priority right now, but it's something to keep in your back pocket. Unfortunately you're not spiritual. :)

Converting to Hinduism does seem like a no brainer, you're below the happiness cap in every city (as little as 3 under and as much as 7! in some cities). Right now, GROW GROW GROW, get citizens working tiles!

Whoever said Hammams aren't necessary? They're a no-brainer in every city (although after granary and courthouse). If it weren't for Hammams this game would be truly, utterly unsalvagable. And as far as space race is concerned, having Monty around is better than "Mansa Musa on the other continent". Everyone trading with the Mansa while you're isolated kinda means you're truly screwed too.

I repeat, I'd rather have Monty over MM any day.

Whoever said Hammams aren't necessary? They're a no-brainer in every city (although after granary and courthouse). If it weren't for Hammams this game would be truly, utterly unsalvagable. And as far as space race is concerned, having Monty around is better than "Mansa Musa on the other continent". Everyone trading with the Mansa while you're isolated kinda means you're truly screwed too.

I repeat, I'd rather have Monty over MM any day.

Hammams aren't necessary if your cities aren't anywhere near the happy or health caps. In that case it's clearly better to build something else first.

Hammams aren't necessary if your cities aren't anywhere near the happy or health caps. In that case it's clearly better to build something else first.
like a granary or a library

like a granary or a library

Okey-dokey, I'll check the builds and adjust them accordingly. I'm mainly going to alternate between infrastructure and Workers. Serfdom is attractive, but a diversion to that tech is not. I might just compensate by leveraging the Expansive trait for more Workers.

I'll get the citizens working more cottages, but up until now, I've been focused on growth.

As for military, you will need to beef up one way or another. Your best units are currently Swordsmen (as soon as iron is hooked up). It's not great, but it will have to do for now. One of your cities should probably keep pumping out whatever it can.

For now your best hope is diplomacy. If you really expect a fight there are two choices to make: Gunpowder or Engineering. With Gunpowder you obviously get Janissaries. With Engineering you'd get Increased Road Movement, Catapaults, and Pikes. You have a large island and will probably have a smallish and spread out military. The extra road movement is what's most important to cover your territory effectively.

It seems likely that someone is going to declare on you - you are just a juicy target at the moment. So the questions are: How long do you think you have til someone does declare, and What is the best unit you could reasonably expect to field at that time?

For Gunpowder you'd probably go through CS->Paper->Education, a route you already plan to go to get to the cottage techs for your economic recovery.
Construction should be cheap-ish by now, but Engineering requires Metal Casting and Machinery.

How many beakers(and turns) it will take to get to either of those goals is fairly important at this point. I can't look at the save right now, hopefully someone else can.

I might just compensate by leveraging the Expansive trait for more Workers.

I'll get the citizens working more cottages, but up until now, I've been focused on growth.Stay focused on growth until you hit the happy cap, then stagnate working cottages. Unless you go purely cultural (which is an option, although space is the way I'd go in this situation), emancipation is what's going to salvage this so early cottage growing isn't an absolute priority - the ability to grow lots of cottages quickly (ie by having large cities and lots of workers to cottage over farms) is more important.

Essentially a deep beeline to democracy is key here. If that doesn't yield any trades, it'll give you the commerce necessary to make a subsequent beeline to something that will. The only military you really need at this stage of the game are catapults, which can pulverize any landing stack well enough...I'd grab Calendar for those sugar plantations and then get cracking on the long slog to the emancipation civic. If you can generate a GS or two to help along the way, so much the better.

Buddying up to the Buddhists is an option, but I'd be reluctant to pursue that at this early stage. It's going to be a long time before you have anything to bribe them with should Monty decide to attack you, and an equally long time before any of them become reasonable trading partners. Cyrus is unlikely to invade as he's generally one of the more agreeable AIs, but don't be surprised if a Persian galleon or two bearing settler parties shows up. Unfortunately even a single unclaimed tile will be enough for the AI to leap in at this stage of the game.

A bit late now, but what was the point of expanding so rapidly when no one else was competing for land? It seems like this was one situation where you could expand exactly at your own pace and maximize your science, with a continent to yourself...

A bit late now, but what was the point of expanding so rapidly when no one else was competing for land? It seems like this was one situation where you could expand exactly at your own pace and maximize your science, with a continent to yourself...

I actually disagree, I think he made the right choice, as the AI should start showing up pretty soon with settler parties. Should be fun seeing him try to dig his way out of this one, looking forward to it.

Now this situation is looking more like one of my games. That's not good news. I often don't manage to salvage them.

One minor point, if possible: try to build up some tribute money. That might buy you a little grace if things get dicey, but not more than a few hundred. Otherwise, I would probably go for liberalism and democracy for the economy and research bonuses, then start the long space race. This will be a challenge, especially diplomatically.

I actually disagree, I think he made the right choice, as the AI should start showing up pretty soon with settler parties. Should be fun seeing him try to dig his way out of this one, looking forward to it.

I agree. I've tried it both ways and REXing your own continent works better almost every time. You're screwed tech-wise no matter what; the majority of your catching-up will be done post-astro when someone finds you.

In this game: if we can keep the AIs at bay long enough to beeline for democracy and get even one tech over someone like Monty, that may be enough to bribe Monty (or whoever) into attacking someone else, if he doesn't do it himself. AI v AI wars drastically slow down the AI tech competition both in direct costs and indirectly because the land between two warring AIs tends to get pillaged to high hell, thus slowing down whoever wins the war almost as badly as whoever lost the war.

I actually disagree, I think he made the right choice, as the AI should start showing up pretty soon with settler parties.

yeah, that's my theory too. if there is an AI left in the game, then they are going to have a settler on a boat, even if it's 2049 and all spots are taken. that's just the way they are. so i'd definitely have staked my claim now on the coast.

One minor point, if possible: try to build up some tribute money. That might buy you a little grace if things get dicey, but not more than a few hundred.

hmmz. i've always figured (but just from intuition, couldn't check code if i wanted to) that i shouldn't have too much money sitting around, because they'll ask for it; if i don't have it laying around, they can't ask for it, and i get to invest in science. sounds like you're saying that if you have money, and they ask for tribute and you give in, then they might not go to war with you yet? but if you don't have it, then they can't ask so the war is earlier by default. is that really how it works?

hmmz. i've always figured (but just from intuition, couldn't check code if i wanted to) that i shouldn't have too much money sitting around, because they'll ask for it; if i don't have it laying around, they can't ask for it, and i get to invest in science. sounds like you're saying that if you have money, and they ask for tribute and you give in, then they might not go to war with you yet? but if you don't have it, then they can't ask so the war is earlier by default. is that really how it works?

Only thing I can think of, is if you have the money, they'll ask for it to give you a chance, if you have nothing to give them, they'll just attack you giving you no chance to appease them, so I think what he's saying is if you have some money laying around that would give you the means to appease an AI, and maybe even get them to like you. Whether I agree or not... I'm not sure...

having money is good, for the reason cds0528 mentionned
having lots of money isn't, because AIs ask for a portion of you gold.
If your pockets are full, a portion of your gold is a huge amount.
If your pockets are almost empty, it's a coin :lol:.
I like to have 300 or so gold in the bank for this reason.

Someone sent me a PM wondering if this is possible and I honestly don't know.

Can you vassalize yourself to an AI civ? Thereby gaining their protection? Having to surrender a resource or two might be worth it.

having money is good, for the reason cds0528 mentionned
having lots of money isn't, because AIs ask for a portion of you gold.
If your pockets are full, a portion of your gold is a huge amount.
If your pockets are almost empty, it's a coin :lol:.
I like to have 300 or so gold in the bank for this reason.

Much better said. You want enough to make it cost you around 100 for a +1 diplo modifier, but not much more than that. 300 is also useful for that one emergency promotion should we be forced to go to plan B at some point. It may not matter, but it may buy some time, and money can always be used eventually.

Someone sent me a PM wondering if this is possible and I honestly don't know.

Can you vassalize yourself to an AI civ? Thereby gaining their protection? Having to surrender a resource or two might be worth it.

This option is turned off.

This option is turned off.

Ah, so there's a custom game setting that allows the human player to vassalize him/herself to the AI?

I don't think so. "Turned off" should mean "completely unavailable". I think they said it could lead to all sorts of exploits, that's why they didn't include it.

Ah, so there's a custom game setting that allows the human player to vassalize him/herself to the AI?

Turned off meaning, in the code, it was disabled. It could be turned back on, but the consequences are unknown (as far as I know). And, as carl_corey said, it can be exploited in many ways.

it actually IS possible to do so as this very slow-moving game demonstrates (http://www.deviantminds.us/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=84). The Master demands resources from you as well as gifting you resources (and taking them away as well) and tech

Sisiutil,

Oh, how did you ever get into such a sorry shape :confused:

I think it all stems back to only 2 cities in about 600BC. What the heck?

Maybe the whipping of the ewarly wonder held back your Capital also.

Anyway, It's probably not right to dwell on that right now. Good luck getting out of this jam. That's why I usually play on Pangea ;)

BTW: Any thought to having some of your cities just build 'Research' to hasten along your techs somewhat? Or is that a bad idea?

Cheers.

Sisiutil,

Oh, how did you ever get into such a sorry shape :confused:

I think it all stems back to only 2 cities in about 600BC. What the heck?

Maybe the whipping of the ewarly wonder held back your Capital also.

Anyway, It's probably not right to dwell on that right now. Good luck getting out of this jam. That's why I usually play on Pangea ;)

BTW: Any thought to having some of your cities just build 'Research' to hasten along your techs somewhat? Or is that a bad idea?

Cheers.
I lay it all at the feet of the barbs, frankly. If you don't get one of the 3 early strategic resources in the capital's fat cross on an isolated start, you're going to have a very hard time. I had to build and whip Warrior after Warrior because it was either that or lay down and die.

I suppose the sensible thing would have been to forgo any wonders (which I'm doing now) and focus on expansion and growth, but hindsight is always 20/20.

Only thing I can think of, is if you have the money, they'll ask for it to give you a chance, if you have nothing to give them, they'll just attack you giving you no chance to appease them, so I think what he's saying is if you have some money laying around that would give you the means to appease an AI, and maybe even get them to like you. Whether I agree or not... I'm not sure...
I still deny extortionate tribute because of my experiences in CivIII. In CivIII, the AI would demand tribute - and then sneak attack 2 turns later anyway if I gave in. I've never tested it, but the Civ IV AI seems even more eager to attack when it thinks it has a military advantage, so I figure it will still do the same thing.

At present I give in to demands only with the aim of making AI which aren't going to attack me anyway become or stay friendly. Tribute sometimes permits open borders, and then it's often worthwhile.

Round 5: 1280 AD to 1358 AD

I didn't play very many turns during this round because I'm in a precarious position and I want everyone to alert me to any necessary course corrections ASAP. That being said, things are starting to look up a little bit.

I started off by postponing the build of a hammam in Konya as all of you were urging:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC15/ALC15_1358AD01.jpg

Easy for you lot to suggest! With all those Workers out toiling away in the jungle all day, the place is starting to reek. But the city is still growing, so I suppose their wives are just pinching their noses shut and tolerating it as best they can.

Now that they have a new whipping boy, the other civs came by to push me around a little. Guess who was first in line:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC15/ALC15_1358AD02.jpg

Not that giving in made him any friendlier, but I suppose I'd rather have a demerit with the much more reasonable Frederick than this nut. Not, I suppose, that it will make much difference in the end, but it may buy me time, which I very much need.

And Montezuma wasn't the only one who felt like showing poor ol' Sisiutil who's boss:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC15/ALC15_1358AD03.jpg

Oh, rub it in, why don't you, babe? :p

Fortunately, not everybody else was so nasty. Freddy turned out to be very forgiving:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC15/ALC15_1358AD04.jpg


I don't really need the health bonus, but he had no other resources to offer and this way I start accumulating a diplomatic bonus for resource supply to offset the trade cancellation Monty forced me into.

And look who was feeling generous!

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC15/ALC15_1358AD05.jpg

You'd never peg Vikings as being a bunch of softies, would you? What a guy. This enables forges, of course, and since I have a source of gold, it means I have another means to boost the happiness cap (not to mention production).

Shortly after this, I finished researching my next tech:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC15/ALC15_1358AD06.jpg

Of course I immediately changed civics to take advantage of it:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC15/ALC15_1358AD07.jpg

Unfortunately, everyone already has CS, so I wasn't able to trade it to anyone. I started researching Construction with an eye towards building several Catapults for defense as some of you suggested. I agree that I should bee-line to Democracy soon, but I think Cats for defense, then Calendar to give me sugar for trading are necessary pits stops before pursuing that path.

Speaking of trade, I had some luck on that front as the other civs gradually obtained Astronomy:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC15/ALC15_1358AD08.jpg

In fact, by the end of this round, I had several trades in place which allowed me to raise the research slider:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC15/ALC15_1358AD11.jpg

Here's a look at foreign relations, which seemed to be the focus of this round:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC15/ALC15_1358AD10.jpg

And finally, a look at the map:


http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC15/ALC15_1358AD09.jpg

I shifted tiles worked as the cities grew to the cottages, which I was laying down with the help of a couple more Workers that I built. I would have built more but some of the cities haven't popped their borders yet. With so many civs having Astronomy, I'm beginning to think that I should waste much more time in that regard waiting for other religions to spread to me. Next round I think I should just spread a religion and get all my land claimed to keep out the other civs.

Speaking of religion: I spread Buddhism to Istanbul and Edirne, but I haven't converted, nor have I given up Confucianism. Any recommendations there? Even without converting, I've managed to get almost everybody up to "Pleased", so is it really necessary?

The saved game is below.

How big is everyone's tech lead on you now? I think you should rush up to that little island to get the copper, if only for denial/trade purposes. I think it's pretty amazing that you have everyone up to pleased, even though you have a state religon that no one else has!

The Vikings gifting you a tech? Whew... This is a challenge.:D

I would have built more but some of the cities haven't popped their borders yet. With so many civs having Astronomy, I'm beginning to think that I should waste much more time in that regard waiting for other religions to spread to me. Next round I think I should just spread a religion and get all my land claimed to keep out the other civs.

is there a "not" missing in there somewhere? you shouldn't waste much more time?

Speaking of religion: I spread Buddhism to Istanbul and Edirne, but I haven't converted, nor have I given up Confucianism. Any recommendations there? Even without converting, I've managed to get almost everybody up to "Pleased", so is it really necessary?

well, the only benefit to staying confused is if it's already spread to your cities, to save you hammers in making missionaries. the line of sight you get from it being your state religion isn't gaining you anything since you're the only with it in any cities, and you get the shrine money whether it's your state religion or not. you can still spread it to get more shrine money, to your own cities and to AI cities, even if you're no longer a "true believer" of course.

there could be real benefits to converting to buddhism. if you're the only confused one, nobody's on your side. if you're buddhist, then the non-buddhists think you're a heathen, but they already think that so that's not a negative of the conversion plan. the buddhists tho, they'll change from think you're a heathen to thinking you're one of the righteous. that's a good thing. only down sides are making the missionaries to spread it around, and i suppose giving ragnar line of sight into your cities although i never worry about that ;).

i don't know if it's absolutely necessary but it's something i would definitely do. using religion in diplomacy and politics is part of my style, and something i concentrate on. having wicked fun in a current game, i sent jewish missionaries to genghis when he surprisingly opened borders after a present. i sent hindu ones (my own religion) to saladin and frederick muhahaha. genghis is gonna die soon :mischief:. i'm much better at that sort of manipulation than i am at the "make a ton of chariots and kill somebody off before i learn construction" angle *giggle*.

As I said before, it's not a question of if, so much as when...

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q29/anoxia_mutant/Civ4ScreenShot0002.jpg

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q29/anoxia_mutant/Civ4ScreenShot0000.jpg

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q29/anoxia_mutant/Civ4ScreenShot0001.jpg

:eek: The two highest power civs both have enough on their hands. Looks like you're gonna have a chance to see those Catapults in action.

That isn't necessarily true; check to see who Monty and Cathy hate most. As long as you aren't their Worst Enemy, you will probably not be first on their hit list. If there are any barb cities still in play, they might even be targeting those instead of you. However, if you are someone's worst enemy, and they have full hands, and no barbs are around, then peace won't last much longer... Normally what I'd do is bribe someone to attack someone I know is about to attack me. That's the only way to avoid war. But right now, there isn't anything we can offer in terms of tech, and I doubt we have enough gold to bribe. So uh, yes, build more cats. :)

Heheh, I just love how "We have enough on our hands" is code for "We're planning to attack you." I still say a DP is the best way to cheat death, but it looks like Sisiutil may not have that much time. Just how far away is Military Tradition?

Cathrine and Monty share borders (see diplomatic advisor). There is some hope.
Pay tribute in any way possible or good luck with those cats.

Axident, this is not true. In my last game I was up to +7 to Genghis but was lacking a bit in military power but was leading the score. Even if there were other characters with +4/+5 I got still invaded like no tomorrow.

Anybody who says that the AI is not able to land a decent SoD has never seen Genghis move an invasion force of 25+ units with boats. I was like "What the.........!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" Lost 2 main cities (defended by 6 units) in the first 2 rounds.

I would have expected some more coastal cities Sisi, but I guess you choose the cottage appraoch with as many workable tiles as possible. Good luck in the next round.

As I said before, it's not a question of if, so much as when...

:agree:

Monty is only Annoyed with you and Frederick, and I doubt Frederick is anywhere near the top of his hit list.

By this time period, I presume everybody has Knights. It's somewhat of a gamble, but loading up on cheap Spearmen might not be a bad idea, either.

If you can wrest a World Map from somebody, that might at least help us to know which direction he's coming from, too.

http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u128/OTAKUjbski/ALC15Notgood.jpg

How big is everyone's tech lead on you now? I think you should rush up to that little island to get the copper, if only for denial/trade purposes. I think it's pretty amazing that you have everyone up to pleased, even though you have a state religon that no one else has!

http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u128/OTAKUjbski/ALC15BassAckwards.jpg

In no particular order:

State Religion

I vote either NSR or Buddhism. We have no religious civic running, so except for the +1 :), it may very likely be doing more harm than good -- especially where Monty is concerned. Losing that -4 might buy as a few more turns of preparation.

Land is Power and Power is Land

Even though the island is a bit far from Istanbul, I think it's worth it. Our traits will get us a 50% off Lighthouse, Granary and Courthouse -- all the things we NEED this city to have ASAP.

Given the 4 Forests in the SW of the Island, that would be the place to stake a claim, if there ever was one. If you found a city 1S of the Desert tile, you'll have 3 Forests in your inner ring for a total of 132 chop hammers. Courthouse + Granary = 135 hammers ... Lighthouse = 45, which +29 of can come from the forest outside the inner ring (+44 if we bring along a Missionary to pop the borders).

This city will increase our total maintenance by 12 :gold:, I think. Rushing our 3 primary builds, working the Coast and adding in +2 :commerce: from trade routes means we shave off 11 of that (albeit 2.5 of it is in beakers). Leaving 1 total commerce lost for the city, which should be recouped in 17 turns when it 2 pops -- at which point we might work the mine or a Cottage.

Who knows, maybe this city'll become a distraction to the AI if/when they invade.?.

Istanbul = :science: City

http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u128/OTAKUjbski/ALC15NoGNP.jpg

Even though Istanbul is the top :hammers: city right now, we are way down on GNP, so I think we should focus Istanbul on :science:.

As soon as the Axeman is finished, lock in 2 Scientists, 1 Merchant and set the governor to :food: & :commerce:. This will allow you to increase the Science slider by 1% (thus speeding up Construction a turn) and also speed up the GP by 2 turns sooner (granted, this might 'pollute' the pool, but even a GM would be better than a GPr right now, though we all pray dearly for an Academy-building GS.)

Making this switch in Istanbul will also result in +7 food, which is highly respectable and will get us to working all the cottages that much sooner.

Edirne = Dry County

Edirne's Rice isn't Irrigated. This could be rectified in one turn with all the Workers running around.

Speaking of Edirne, I might also run a Merchant there -- at least until the Rice Farm is irrigated and the Lighthouse is finished.

Bursa = :hammers: time

Since Bursa is #2 on the production list, I'd recommend moving all military production there (especially if Istanbul is switched to Science).

To facilitate this, chop 2 of the forest tiles for +88 hammers towards the Forge.

Given the fear of invasion, we need this city up and running ASAP.

Crutch city

I just recently learned the power of the crutch and have never gone back.

I'm talking about a city whose purpose in life is to work cottages for other cities until they can stand on their own feet.

Build a crutch on the hill between Istanbul and Konya. There are 7 forests surrounding this site, resulting in 308 chop hammers. Courthouse 90 + Granary 45 + Library 135 = 270 w/ 38 overflow.

Similar to the island expansion, you can time the chops to all hit the city on turn 1 as it's built -- in which case it will almost immediately pay for itself after cottage / trade routes are factored in.

The crutch will be able to work 2 tiles from each city and will later have a number of its own grasslands and hills to draw from.

Alternately, I would also have the crutch take over Istanbul's Rice for the 1st 7 turns it needs to grow to pop 2 -- thus enabling it to work both of Istanbul's east river cottages. This will still leave Istanbul with +4 :food:.

I believe making the Istanbul changes and adding the crutch will increase science by 6 and gold by 8, if my numbers are correct. Total cost goes up to 93, though, so running a Merchant in Edirne and Istanbul along with the crutch is almost a must at first.

The crutch is nearly impossible to do in conjunction with island expansion, imo ... it hurts a lot ... if the crutch is built first and the expansion is built after the crutch 2 pops and Edirne & Istanbul run Merchants, :D THEN you'll more-or-less break even building both of these cities quickly.

Tiiimmmmmbbbeeerrr!

There are Forests all over the island ... is there a particular reason why we aren't chop-rushing anything?

Given that we're post-Mathematics, every Forest is a Granary or Lighthouse ... every 2 Forests is a Courthouse ... every 3 a Library. If not anything else, that's a ton of units waiting to be unleashed, too.

My 2c

I think that pretty much covers my immediate suggestions. My biggest fear is still that Monty is about to come squash us.

I concur that the AI will attack people it likes if it thinks there's a good opportunity. I've had AIs at "friendly" declare on me for no reason other than a power score 2-3 times mine (kinda like real people!). With these power differentials I see little chance for appeasement, especially with Monty. Maybe you can use Cathy's lust for tribute to get really high and that will save you from her at least. If Monty's just getting Astronomy now you've got a few turns before he can build an invasion fleet.

I don't think you can do much to forestall an invasion once the AI has set it in motion. My impression is that once the AI has sent units out on an attack plan it has a hard time recalling them. If you can reinforce the target the attackers frequently suicide. Programming limitations, I suppose. So once those knight get loaded on the Galleons they're going to be attacking your walls eventually.

Will knight(s) soon fall upon Mehmed's kingdom?

Well, the game is in a critical point. Sisiutil's civ is slowly recovering of the isolation, and if he could manage to pass the next two centuries unharmed, he has conditions to win the day. But Melior Traiano is right: unless Monty and Cathy are preparing to figth each other ( that would be nice...), we will see some uphill figths ( Gunpowder is far away, we would need to research Archery + Feudalism for longbows and Guilds is far away and needs HBR...., that leaves you with cats+axes+swords+spears for the near future) and, after construction ( for the cats ) we need to beeline gunpowder for the jans...

The crutch city of OTAKUjbski seems like a good idea, but i wouldn't go for the island like he suggests ( dangerous gamble... )

About the game geography, it looks like a 3 continental system world: you in one, Monty and Cathy ( and Capac, maybe on a nearby island ( no close borders)) in other and Freddy and Cyrus ( and Ragnar in another island ) in the last. A heavily divided world, good for diplo or cultural wins.

About the buddhist thing, having 3 more friends would be nice, but Monty is Hindu and Cathy is Jewish. It won't hurt you a lot, but it won't help with the big dogs.

Said that, attach well your helmet's strings and good luck :goodjob:

Just a minor quibble, but if you're in need of border pops, a swap to caste system might not be a bad idea.

I know you aren't spiritual and us lot normally encourage you to make fewer civics swaps rather than more, but it'll be the fastest way to close off any remaining land on your current island and things are getting to a stage where growth is likely to be more useful than the whip.

Until Monty shows up with 20 knights and trebs anyway :crazyeye:

(actually, my gut feeling is you'll be OK from invasion for a while yet - cue famous last words)

it's too late now to do anything to be nice to monte or catherine (she's the only one who would attack even if friendly btw).
If you could bribe someone vs monte, you can delay his attack. But being 20 techs back makes this rather unlikely...
Are you working towards your scientists (lightbulb education to open up gunpowder)?

I blame the barbs. I also, however, think that whipping wonders is too costly. How often do you guys whip wonders?

Let's grab some gunpowder and make Monty look like a fool!

how long til you can get a scientist? That would probably be able to lightbulbphilosophy and trade for construation at aleast and hopefully paper and maxhinery too..

it's too late now to do anything to be nice to monte or catherine (she's the only one who would attack even if friendly btw).


Really? does she do that ? I was under the impression that a friendly relationship meant no backstabbing, whereas pleased could be trouble with low power.


Let's grab some gunpowder and make Monty look like a fool!


Are we finally put the UU to use, in what might be a critical struggle for survival ? A couple of rounds before, we definitely heard people asking for a restart in order to see some janissaries action. Might not be necessary, after all.

Have you tried begging yet? You have 3 pleased AI's that haven't given you anything yet. If you can scam Calendar and/or Construction from an AI, you'd be in much better shape.

Charou -- Some AI leaders are more treacherous than others. So, ANY leader can attack when "Cautious"; SOME leaders can attack when "Pleased"; but only a few particularly sneaky leaders may launch a war against you even when "Friendly".

Catherine is one of those sneaky AI leaders. (Elizabeth is another.) Oh, she's less /likely/ to stab you if she likes you, but she still might.

So, the only way to be sure you're safe from her is to be stronger. Not an option here, alas.

BTW, there's a similar distribution WRT to power. That is, most AIs won't attack you if you're stronger -- but there are a couple of crazy-butt leaders who will. (Mr. Montezuma, pick up your phone.)


Waldo

Monty doesn't have Astronomy, so if he's already planning to attack somebody, it probably isn't you. Catherine can attack, which is scary, but you did give her tribute, which helps. (I hope you sold your map to everyone else the same turn you gave it to her, so you could get something for it...) Who's her worst enemy? If it's Freddy, he's the one likely to get dogpiled, and you're safe...for now.

Of course, if (when) war breaks out, expect to have everyone begging you to join in on their side. A great opportunity to improve relations with some (and ruin others) so you'll have to decide if it's worth getting involved.

I'm baffled as to why your GNP is in the toilet -- was the barbarian rush really that bad? Hmmmm...didn't somebody suggest chopping The Great Wall? :p

Since you have many civs "Pleased" with you, see if you can beg some techs from them. Hopefully you can get Poly/Mono (you need OR in a BAD way!!) and possibly Alphabet (to build Research). Try to beg a map from somebody, too -- it's critical to know where everybody is.

I don't see any reason to switch religions unless you want to goose up relations with the Buddhist bloc, and possibly sign a DP when it's available (Ragnar would be a good choice) -- Cathy's founded Islam, so she's likely to go Free Religion soon. Not a lot you can do about heathen Monty...but like others said, if the AI's already planning to attack you, switching to NSR probably won't deter them now.

Good luck with the next few centuries...you'll need it! :cooool:

how long til you can get a scientist? That would probably be able to lightbulbphilosophy and trade for construation at aleast and hopefully paper and maxhinery too..

We'll have a 66% chance 7 turns from now in Istanbul. If we add any other specialist, we can bump it up by 2 turns (my recommendation is a Merchant).

Monty doesn't have Astronomy, so if he's already planning to attack somebody, it probably isn't you. Catherine can attack, which is scary, but you did give her tribute, which helps. (I hope you sold your map to everyone else the same turn you gave it to her, so you could get something for it...) Who's her worst enemy? If it's Freddy, he's the one likely to get dogpiled, and you're safe...for now.

I think he's right. I didn't check the Resources tab last night. However, after looking at it just now, Monty and HC are both disconnected from the trade route -- which means they don't have Astronomy.

That should buy us at least a few turns.

both konya and Giazantep are working a mine when they would be working a cottage both to speed up growth and commerce. why are your workers improving around Giazantep when edirne and ankara both need more cottages badly(they are allready big enough to work more! Bursa could easily work 4 cottages if they just were there. Samsun could also work 2 more cottages if they were just built. You need more workers badly... thats 10 cottages your not working that you should be! Not to mention that your capital could easily work 4 cottages more too.. Your paying 9 in unit cost each turn. This could easily be reduced a bit by disbanding 3 warriors. Neither fredrick nor ragnar have philosophy yet. Lets hope that is the case when you hopefully spawn a scientist in 7 turns. You dont need silk yet. Way better to trade for 11 gold from catherine each turn... Also keeping these ships is only costing you more gold than the fishing nets they protect give you. Who are you deluding? You are not gonna protect from galleons with triemes... Just delete them. Everyone have construction. You can trade for it. You are not gonna beat macemen with axemen no matter how hard you try. Just research a couple turns on 0 research towards it i supose while praying hard for a scientists to pop philosophy(so you can trade for some techs) and then use the saved up gold to go towards nationalism.

Here is a save with some changes and notes.

Elizabeth the backstabber? I never knew that. I never was the receiving end of that, and thank goodness, because her traits could make a technological nightmare.

As for gunpowder... like I said, don't bother with military, as you need to build up and just try to win, or go down in flames. Monty might attack Freddy now, and you'll probably be the next target, by which point you'll need more than rifleman.

Have you tried begging yet? You have 3 pleased AI's that haven't given you anything yet. If you can scam Calendar and/or Construction from an AI, you'd be in much better shape.

Seconded. You don't get a demerit for begging, just for bullying and demanding tribute.
Start asking, they may be more than willing to give you Construction. The AI seems to be able to sense when you've put a bit of research into the tech, offering more reasonable trades.

Monty might attack Freddy now, and you'll probably be the next target, by which point you'll need more than rifleman.
Also seconded. I can't check here, but if Monty is asking you to cancel trades with Freddy then maybe Freddy is his worst enemy/poor sap he's planning to attack.

I don't think Organized Religion is needed now, particularly since a switch to a different religion or no state religion could be imminent.

I also support selling your map if possible, and trading your resources for gold in the meantime. That means Pig-Cow with Freddy and maybe Silk-Cow with Cathy.

OTAKUjbski's Crutch city sounds like a decent idea, if we can afford to produce a settler now. I don't think the NE island is feasible - it would require a Settler, Worker(s) (chopping and improving tiles), Missionary (Border pop - do we even have a monastery?), and garrison troops. Which would probably mean two galleys to get everything over there, and even then it'll be ~20 turns minimum before you can get all those units over there, plus another 15 or so for chopping.

While it would be nice to claim that island (and keep it away from the AI), I think the priorities right now are:
1) Researching as quickly as possible to make up ground.
2) Building some troops to deal with potential (imminent?) invasions and bolster power rating to stall them.

The argument in favor of settling the island is that it keeps it from the AI (which it won't, they'll settle the other spot near the fish before you can claim it) and it's another city to boost you down the road.

IIRC, you have a sizable landmass already, if not the most land area then very close. While more land is better, will that island be the tipping point that allows you to win the space race? Will it be decisive in boosting research or trade opportunities?
I think that if you're going to win the race, you can probably do it with the land you already have and going after that area would be spending crucial resources right now. Hammers should be going towards crucial infrastructure (forges, courthouses, libraries, lighthouses and harbors where appropriate) and workers (hammers + food) to develop tiles for those cities. More cities will stretch your resources thinner and slow the development of your core even futher.

I think Sisiutil did a good job in the last short round, the builds looked good, the trading/diplomatic situation was handled very well, just a few more trades for gold would be ideal.

With getting the important people to pleased I would not worry as much about the religion. I would definitely switch to Bud if asked though.

I would also see who else is feeling generous now that you are pleased with them. Go in and start asking for those old techs that are cheap. If you get lucky you might get a few, and since your pleased the worst you will get is a slap across the face from Catherine.

First time poster. I am only a noble player and do not have the skill of all of the posters here. I have enjoyed and learn a lot from the ALC games. It seems that if or (when) attacked it will be by overwhelming odds (at best knights and maceman VS axemen archers spearmen and cats). It would seem that building a navy and attacking the galleons will give you better odds. You use cats as throw away units to weaken the attackers so less strong units have a fighting chance. Could you do the same with your weaker navy. Sink a galleon full of Knights (4) might take four ships but the payoff would be better than having to fight the knights on land. Just a thought..

Could you do the same with your weaker navy. Sink a galleon full of Knights (4) might take four ships but the payoff would be better than having to fight the knights on land. Just a thought..

Interesting idea. I think the main problem is that you're not likely to encounter a single, isolated galleon all by itself. If there's a stack of two or three, the least injured ones would defend the stack each time you attack. It could easily take two or three suicides per ship before you can even kill one. Against three galleons, that's a lot of suicides.

One secondary problem is that we don't know where anyone is, so we don't know which direction they'll be coming from. That means we'd probably need not just one fleet of about a dozen galleys but two -- one on each coast!

Another secondary problem is that the AI's might not be as far away from Chemistry as we'd like to hope. If they get frigates, it doesn't matter how many galleys you throw at them, you're not killing anybody.

I'll bet you Cathy's coming for us. Since it is unlikely we'll reach gunpowder in time to stop anything. Jannisaries aren't really a match for grenadiers anyway:lol: :lol: .Monty is less likely.
Right now it looks like if we want to survive, we NEED to get Friendly with her. Switch to Budha and hope for the best. :mad: :mad:

Another secondary problem is that the AI's might not be as far away from Chemistry as we'd like to hope.

They're actually there already. I opened up the Diplo screen for each AI to see if there was anything helpful to be seen and was surprised by Ragnar's greeting: "Fear my Grenadier" :eek: . It turns out that Huayna also has Grens, while the rest have knights as their best unit except for Monty who's fielding muskets. Since Monty has Guilds I'm assuming this means he doesn't have horses. Good news unless it makes him more likely to research Chemistry.

Overall this is a tough situation to judge. Sisiutil is way behind in techs but has the most cities (no AI has more than 9). While we don't know what the AI's land looks like yet it isn't likely to be more cottageable than Sisiutil's continent. So Sisiutil will probably have the best economy in the late game, if he survives until then.

The question at this point seems to be whether to try and beeline a military tech to give some chance of surviving an invasion or beeline Democracy to get the economy going. Given the AI's level of advancement I don't think gunpowder is going to be enough to provide a solid defense. Remember that Janissaries bonuses are all applicable against units from earlier eras; they have no bonus against gunpowder units. I'm thinking Steel for cannons would probably be necessary to provide some degree of comfort.

At this point I think I'd be in favor of going for Democracy first and risking the invasion. One thing that could help a bit on the military side (just a tiny bit) is that Machinery is a pre-req for Printing Press and therefore it's needed for Democracy. I would look to get it soon so that Maces will be available.

A few things for Sisiutil:

Now that you're running Bureaucracy Istanbul should be working all its cottaged tiles. You don't need hammers there at the moment.

If Istanbul produces a GS in several turns presumably you'll be using it for Philosophy. At the moment both Ragnar and Freddy don't have that tech, so you may be able to trade it. I think you'll get better deals from them if you can bump them up to Friendly, so this is another point in favor of switching to Buddhism ASAP.

Ragnar has a corn available and he needs rice. You've traded one of your spare rice to Cyrus for 2 gpt. I would cancel that trade and get the corn. Remember that you have other means (HR and culture) to provide happiness, but you're going to need health resources for your cities to reach there maximum potential. A +2 :health: corn is too juicy to pass up. (Someone suggested trading resources for gold at this point since you don't need the health or happiness from resources right at the moment. The problem with that is that the resource may not be available later when you need it.)

With the pending health concerns in mind you'll want to think twice before chopping any forests.

If Istanbul produces a GS in several turns presumably you'll be using it for Philosophy. At the moment both Ragnar and Freddy don't have that tech, so you may be able to trade it. I think you'll get better deals from them if you can bump them up to Friendly, so this is another point in favor of switching to Buddhism ASAP.



A couple things:
1. Are we putting our hopes in getting a GS? This could be our end if Istanbul
gets unlucky and produces a GP.

2. Grenadiers? :eek: THAT is why we need to convert religions and pray!

3. While in anarchy, even though GPP aren't increased the chances for a GS is. I wish we were in Caste System, but we can't afford another turn of anarchy.

Ragnar's greeting: "Fear my Grenadier"

I do! I do!

Given the AI's level of advancement I don't think gunpowder is going to be enough to provide a solid defense. Remember that Janissaries bonuses are all applicable against units from earlier eras; they have no bonus against gunpowder units. I'm thinking Steel for cannons would probably be necessary to provide some degree of comfort.

At this point I think I'd be in favor of going for Democracy first and risking the invasion.

That's my feeling as well. Militarily, we're so far behind that beelining a military technology is just going to make us a little less backward. I mean, so what if we get macemen or longbows? As far as military goes, our best options are (not necessarily in order):


Beg for old technologies.
Get the economy rolling so after we get the really old technologies for nothing, we can research the only a little bit old technologies faster.
Make catapults.
Pray. :bowdown:

You're going to need to build up defenses, with any leader other than cathy, diplomacy is usually enough to keep them from attacking. But Catherine is notorious for being the only AI that will declare war on people who are friendly. You can probably keep most of the AI at bay with shared religion, but Monty is not likely to get above pleased, which still leaves him a good probability of attack, and cathy is going to DoW you any way it goes. Gunpowder may be a good one to shoot for, because after that comes chemistry, which will be nessicary for what i'm about to suggest.

I suggest heading to chemistry and churning out Frigates in all coastal cities and grenadeers in inland cities. After chemistry head to steel for ironclads and cannons to further bolster homeland defense. If ANY AI declares war on you, immediately send your frigates towards them, and block off all of their cities. The AI seldom builds more than one or two ironclads and seldom recognizes a need for certain units over others. By blocking their ports, they can not get their superior land power to you, the AI's ineptitude at ground wars is only second to their ineptitude at anything involving the ocean. Head to combustion ASAP, aim for naval military techs and head up to spaceship techs, hopefully with blockaides you will be able to get some leverage in a peace treaty to help out with techs.

On the economic front, you need liberalism and democracy. I'd personally go for Universal Suffrage/Free Speech/Free religion. Depending on how well your relations with the AI get, free market may be a slightly better option than State Property. Your labour civic will naturally be slavery until emancipation :mad: starts hurting badly enough. Once you have naval superiority, I'd say you could probably stop focusing on land military, putting most of your hammers into beakers or wealth to assist your catching up. I'd keep one coastal production city constantly churning out frigates, ironclads, and later on, destroyers. If you sidetrack to industrialism, you can access marines for burning AI coastal cities with fire support from your massive Turkish navy :lol:

1. Are we putting our hopes in getting a GS? This could be our end if Istanbul
gets unlucky and produces a GP.


There's not much we can do about changing the odds of a GS now. It might be a good idea to get Izmir going as a GS farm ASAP though and to stop running scientists in Istanbul to avoid the chances of getting an unwanted Prophet.

Ragnar has a corn available and he needs rice. You've traded one of your spare rice to Cyrus for 2 gpt. I would cancel that trade and get the corn. Remember that you have other means (HR and culture) to provide happiness, but you're going to need health resources for your cities to reach there maximum potential. A +2 :health: corn is too juicy to pass up. (Someone suggested trading resources for gold at this point since you don't need the health or happiness from resources right at the moment. The problem with that is that the resource may not be available later when you need it.)

oooooh! very true that the resource might not be there later. i never felt the pain of that until i started playing OCCs, where you need trades so much. and for space race, you'll want to build production-increasing buildings, those will be adding health problems to your cities. every one of those cities will already have a granary, so corn does count as +2 not just +1. validator is 100% right. maybe 200% ;)

Sisiutil is way behind in techs but has the most cities (no AI has more than 9).

sidetrack ... that is the thing i miss the most in OCC games. because i can't trade any cities with the AI, their list of cities doesn't show up in the diplomatic window, not even redlined. so i don't have any idea how many they have without seeing the maps! it's a very odd feeling, you get used to the information just being there *giggle*.

I don't know if anyone has mentioned it, but you may want to secure a 2nd source of copper in case someone gets rowdy and takes the one you've got. Copper is a great help for the Internet, which you'll need.

I don't know if anyone has mentioned it, but you may want to secure a 2nd source of copper in case someone gets rowdy and takes the one you've got. Copper is a great help for the Internet, which you'll need.
Even if we manage to snag it (the internet), we'll probably be in trouble because considering how far we are down, the AI's will be REALLY close to launching before we even get The Internet. But that is beginning to look like a dicey gambit.

I still think a Diplomatic win is possible. If Sisiutil switches to Budhism, that should get Cyrus, Frederick and Ragnar's votes. If we had enough population, that should be enough to win. The only problem would be if Cyrus had more population than Catherine, and ended up being the opponent, but I don't think that'd happen.

Bh

I still think a Diplomatic win is possible. If Sisiutil switches to Budhism, that should get Cyrus, Frederick and Ragnar's votes. If we had enough population, that should be enough to win. The only problem would be if Cyrus had more population than Catherine, and ended up being the opponent, but I don't think that'd happen.

Bh

2 other problems :
- Mass media! building the UN! What if cyrus builds the un?
- survival! if catherine attacks, it's game over

2 other problems :
- Mass media! building the UN! What if cyrus builds the un?
- survival! if catherine attacks, it's game over

Right, but I think he was addressing the claim that the Internet is necessary for victory. It's probably necessary for a space race victory, but I don't think we need to be 100% committed to space race at this point. We might lose, but if we win, it could be by either diplomacy or space race.

Oh, of course, it could go wrong. Getting invaded is likely to be game over no matter what strategy Sisiutil ends up going with. :)

You're right, however, if any of the Budhist block builds the UN, it would split the vote as well. I'm not sure that we'd be able to get to the UN before them. Still, I was just pointing out that the Internet isn't the only way to win, like Civman123 was suggesting.

Bh

Oh, of course, it could go wrong. Getting invaded is likely to be game over no matter what strategy Sisiutil ends up going with. :)

You're right, however, if any of the Budhist block builds the UN, it would split the vote as well. I'm not sure that we'd be able to get to the UN before them. Still, I was just pointing out that the Internet isn't the only way to win, like Civman123 was suggesting.

that's exactly why diplo seems a bad choice now
it's like running a marathon with one leg

Sisiutil has a lot of basic catching up to do before thinking about diplo or space. At the moment he doesn't want to be anyone's enemy, he's got nothing to win friends to his cause but despite all that he's going to win.

Perhaps pigswill is being polite, or optimistic (just look at his nick name. Pigs will fly?)

But note that victory is NOT guaranteed in these ALC's. Just look at Aelf's defeat a few days ago as Federick. But yes, a lot of catching up to do. One thing I do believe is the impossibility of diplomatic though. Religious bonuses are gone with the advant of free religion, trade bonuses are very late (like you'll ever have a tech the AI doesn't have at this point, eh?) and only +4 at most, open borders and peace are only 1-2 at most, and the rest really have to be acquired through mutual military bonuses. Like, multiple times, for it to build up. And that's risky for a defenseless Ottoman empire. At least you don't have "our close borders spark tension", but still, you need more than the +8 minimum to secure votes.

Plus, it's not like you'll be second in population in the first place. In fact, you better be careful who to vote for to avoid a diplomatic defeat. Abstaining could sour relations too.

I don't know, perhaps space race or even domination sounds more realistic. Cultural at this point will be slower than an AI launch.

Domination? Are you nuts? :)

I really don't think that Diplomacy will be a problem as long as the Budhists don't get the UN. While Sisiutil is dead last in population right now, he's also number one in land area - meaning he's got the most growth potential. He's also got the most cities. Grow up all those cities, and I don't think having the population to be in the vote will be a problem.

But really, all of the "win" strategies need to take a back seat to "survival". Both the UN and Internet are pretty far off.

Bh

Domination? Are you nuts?
I have found that the IA's seldom upgrade their units, so if you survive and catch up domination may still be on the table. The AI will have lots of units but modern armor can overcome that. The surviving will be the trick and getting the Internet.

Or maybe I've won a shadow so I know its possible (tho I was slightly ahead of Sisiutil at this point in the game (if that's not a spoiler)).

Sir Dale: My (limited) experience suggests the opposite. The AI seem to regularly update their units in my games.

Sure, the AI won't upgrade their units when you're on the other side of the world. But park a stack next to their city and watch how fast they all magically get upgraded.

I still think Sisiutil can pull this one out. But there's no way I believe that Domination is on the table.

Bh

Is a cultural vic truly out of the question?

There isn't much going for culture axident because we don't have many wonders or GA potential so the only way is running 80 or 90 % Culture which is a risky (and cheezy) way to win.

Running culture instead of science is out of the question, he's already dropped too far behind. Cathy attacking is inevitable, the best he can hope for is racing to grab a tech that will grant him some decent form of self defense. He also missed Sistine Chapel and only has a couple of religions, which make the other method of culture victory out of the question. Diplomacy is shakey at best, you have a pair of unpredictable psychos and a mediocre population for your own votes, the AI are all pretty unpredictable when it comes to voting. As I see it, the only option is spaceship, unless somthing like a world war happens on the other continent, decimating everyone's troop strength.

Either way, it's going to be the bumpiest ride yet in the ALC series.

Actually,the comment made about domination earlier is valid, the AI is pretty bad at modern age warfare, so if you can catch up in tech by then (should be possible), then domination is definitely an option, albeit a tough one.

The big issue is that he won't be arriving in the modern age until at the very least 3-4 techs after the last AI gets there at the rate he's going. He won't be able to get enough land for the domination cap before the AI launches a ship. The only warring I think he could do is naval warfare and strategic spies and marine strikes, mainly aimed at delaying AI spaceships while he catches up. Too bad he's not America, this is one of the few situations where SEALS would be very useful. Is it possible to halt an enemy AI's space program entirely if you torch their Apollo city? If so, that might be a good method for buying time.

Is it possible to halt an enemy AI's space program entirely if you torch their Apollo city? If so, that might be a good method for buying time.

if the apollo program is complete, then you can't do anything that will stop them from having the ability to make space ship parts. you can sabotage production of the parts, or nuke/capture their cities, or pillage the land so that they can't physically get the parts out in any reasonable length of time. but once apollo is done, it's done, and not even razing that city will take away the technological capability they now have in theory to build the parts.

older versions of civ were quite different. in at least one, you had to survive for 20? years after launch i think it was. if you lost your capital at any time during that period, "game over man, game over". it added a bit more flavor in some ways. then again, in some cases you're just ready for it to be over by the time you get that last part done.

Is it possible to halt an enemy AI's space program entirely if you torch their Apollo city? If so, that might be a good method for buying time.

It's too bad that doesn't work because that would be awesome.

on a side note, I've wondered before if I torch the UN city if the UN goes away or do we still vote every few turns? It would be great to burn it before I'm forced into Environmentalism

KMad, IIRC, in Civ2 the SS parts could be built in other cities, but the actual "ship" was in your capitol. Theoretically, you could have just started over again, but it the AI was strong enough to torch your central city, chances were they could launch before then. The time thing was that you could build a bigger, slower ship, and if you weren't careful, an AI could launch a faster ship and beat you by a couple turns. (Happened to me a couple times, especially early on.)
Definitely added a bit of suspense to the end game that's been lacking in 3 and 4. Of course, as someone here pointed out, you could conquer most of the world with a spy and enough money, so there was . . um . . imbalance in other facets of the game :)

first of all: what can i type that's actually on topic?
Is a cultural vic truly out of the question?
i don't know if anything is ever truly madly deeply out of the question. but i'm pretty confident in my ability to get a cultural victory if i put my mind to it, and i wouldn't be able to get one if i started at ths game at this save. i am of course little miss permanoob so that's not saying all that much, plenty of other people are better than me. it wouldn't be easy tho.

@uncarved block:
i loved that you could "buy" barbarians with spys, and if they were closer to enemy cities than your own, they were assigned to the magical home city of "NONE", meaning they never caused unhappiness by being too far from home. those were the days *giggle*. ah, the memories...

i distinctly remember that you had to choose how to design your ship, you picked a weight and an engine, part of it was speed and i forget what else, more people on it maybe? more safety? that was the reason you had to wait (and stay alive and maintain your capital) after the launch, to be sure your ship landed before anybody else's did. but that was cool. it wasn't just "build the same parts X Y 3xZ 5xC 7xB" or whatever each time. the press release info for beyond the sword said something about making the space race more strategic/tactical/i forget which buzzword. i hope it works :) i think it's kind of silly that in civ4 all you have to do is launch. we just automatically assume the ship gets there no problem. that'd be spiffy but given the rate our expected great scientists sometimes turn out to be great artists or great merchants, i'm not sure i'd bet my life on a spaceship they designed, you know?

there are definitely bits and pieces i'd take from each version of civ i've played if i was making one ultimate version. and i'd put in the UN-equivalent from SMAC on how you could bribe the other leaders to vote a certain way for you at the next council vote. they'd agree to do it, for X amount of credits, but then sometimes they wouldn't actually do it after taking your money! how cool is that?

i loved civ2, it was the first civ i ever played and the first computer game that introduced me to "one more turn"itis. but i honestly don't remember any games like this current mehmed one, knowing it would be a rough ride ahead, winnable if i put my mind to it, do things right, have some luck, monty has bad luck, and cathy magically has a good mood, but not being sure i can count on all those things happening together, not being confident i'd win. note that the "i" here is really me, not S. i have more faith in his abilities as a player (paricularly as a warmonger) than i do in my own. if he doesn't win, so be it, but i'm not getting all doom-and-gloom at this point is what i mean, just saying i'm too permanoob my own self to know that i personally could do it.

maybe i was just playing civ2 on too easy a level, or maybe the game really has changed and progressed that much. i miss the railroads tho. i loved the straight, oh-so-cute railroads that didn't curve around. they were just better!!!

on a side note, I've wondered before if I torch the UN city if the UN goes away or do we still vote every few turns? It would be great to burn it before I'm forced into Environmentalism

that question came up earlier today, about what happens if the city containing the UN is razed, but nobody replied with the answer last time i checked the thread. i got curious enough to try to search the forums for an answer but it was fruitless. i couldn't come up with the right terms to find the info, too many things contain the phrase "un" and the search function doesn't know i'm only interested in the uppercase i guess. i'm curious, have you ever been forced into environmentalism via UN? i never have. but if my games go that long it's usually because i'm trying for diplomatic victory myself, and i'd not call for that vote, so then by definition the UN couldn't force it on me. i rarely see the UN controlled by an AI; either i have it, or the game's been won by that point or maybe lost, but don't tell anybody, or i got bored and saved it to go back to some other day and probably forgot and never did go back to it *giggle*.

cultural is not out of question, but it would be a real gamble for the following reasons :
- it would require some more religions to come in cities (at least one!)
- it would require teching towards liberalism NOW! (should already be in in fact)
- it would require some backfilling of techs (since no trade is possible, asking politely could work but there is really no sure way to do it), including music if I'm not mistaken
- the military isn't up to date now, and it will get worse if cultural is pursued= tough diplomacy challenge
- it would require to grow those cottages (without sistin chapel, specialists just won't work), which requires democracy which is quite far away

I can't uderstand why in the whole ALC there is always fair wars. The name of this game is "divide and Own".All of you say "attack the strongest". I say aways attack the weeker for fast clear rewarding war .That way you become more competitive with the strongger rivals.

The the level here is Monarch so nothing is lost(all win types are still availiable). Sisiutil have 2 relegions and it is easy to make World War on the other continent by converting and bribing(+ the "Monty" factor). Just needed to survive till ate game.

I can't uderstand why in the whole ALC there is always fair wars. The name of this game is "divide and Own".All of you say "attack the strongest". I say aways attack the weeker for fast clear rewarding war .That way you become more competitive with the strongger rivals.

The the level here is Monarch so nothing is lost(all win types are still availiable). Sisiutil have 2 relegions and it is easy to make World War on the other continent by converting and bribing(+ the "Monty" factor). Just needed to survive till ate game.

I challenge you to take that game and go for any of the following :
- conquest
- domination
- time

Even diplomacy and cultural seem unlikely.
Only space is possible still, but highly difficult.

While Sisiutil is a long way behind on techs its also worth considering that these are still relatively cheap techs so he could be for instance 10,000 beakers behind the pack and still catch up once his island is covered in towns and he's generating 500 beakers/turn more than the AI.

While Sisiutil is a long way behind on techs its also worth considering that these are still relatively cheap techs so he could be for instance 10,000 beakers behind the pack and still catch up once his island is covered in towns and he's generating 500 beakers/turn more than the AI.
In fact, being backwards can be leveraged ;).
With a switch to either no state religion or to buddhism, he can have a few pleased civs ready to give him a few techs.
How to proceed :
- get pleased first!
- ask for 1 cheap tech from each pleased AI asap
- wait for 20/30 turns
- repeat
The idea is to tech to a not so cheap while begging, then trade for more advanced techs.

Definitely worth moving out of confucisianism particularly as you're not running any religious civics. Buddhism or NSR is trickier depending on whether you want to polarise or neutralise relations.

I'd forget building up an army, if someone goes for you you're dead, game over etc and half a dozen cats and a few axes won't change that. In fact unit maintenance is costing you 9gpt, you can get rid of your warriors as a start coz they ain't scaring anyone and by the time you can afford to upgrade them you won't need them. As part of demilitarisation I'd also suggest forget construction, go for calendar instead and check out the global market for sugar.

Edit: On the subject of demilitarisation switch Istanbul to working cottages instead of mines, you can grow to size 15 before hittings caps and the extra commerce is more use to you than the extra production.
Don't forget that you're only one courthouse away from Forbidden Palace so its worth thinking about best city for it.

i distinctly remember that you had to choose how to design your ship, you picked a weight and an engine, part of it was speed and i forget what else, more people on it maybe? more safety? that was the reason you had to wait (and stay alive and maintain your capital) after the launch, to be sure your ship landed before anybody else's did. but that was cool. it wasn't just "build the same parts X Y 3xZ 5xC 7xB" or whatever each time. the press release info for beyond the sword said something about making the space race more strategic/tactical/i forget which buzzword. i hope it works :) i think it's kind of silly that in civ4 all you have to do is launch. we just automatically assume the ship gets there no problem. that'd be spiffy but given the rate our expected great scientists sometimes turn out to be great artists or great merchants, i'm not sure i'd bet my life on a spaceship they designed, you know?


From memory, you would build specific components. The ship had to have a minimum superstructure, and you could then add components. You had to build habitation pods to support colonists (and increase your score when your ship lands), and engines for speed. If everything was maxxed out it took like 10 turns, but you could go faster (less colonists) or slower (fewer engines) or a combination of both.

Don't forget to build a few tC's while you're building those 7 xB's!

Slightly off-topic, but for KMad:

Remember the line from "Armaggedon" - "We're about to ride on top of a shipful of high explosives designed and built by the lowest bidder." Or something like that. :)

It does make you think you should have to make sure your ship makes it, although I can get some enjoyment out of nuking everyone on the planet just before launching.

It was even more challenging in Civ3, where as soon as you launched a nuke just about everyone would declare war on you no matter HOW powerful you were. I'd launch all my nukes about 5 turns before I was to launch, then just see how long I could keep from losing any cities while up against the entire world. The ultimate Scorched Earth policy - "We're leaving, don't follow us. And just to make sure you CAN'T follow us....better re-learn how to duck and cover.":mwaha:

At this point in the game, I would probably set up a GP farm for engineers and start a beeline for the internet in hopes of snagging a space victory. Ally with the buddhist block and do your very best keep them at war with the others and consentrating on anything but their space ships.

It's late for culture and you're not philo.. domination requires you to be able to field an army against several technologicly supperior foes.

Diplomacy is probably your second best option if you take the time to switch to a full FE and back door it, but you'd probably still need some help.

Tough position to be in.

As far as the techs Sisiutil should beg for, the only three I see he should put on his list are Hunting, Calendar and Alphabet.

If an AI invades Sisiutil with Knights, Spearmen will help a little in that aspect, and you need Hunting for Spearmen.

Alphabet should be one Sisutil can obtain, because he can trade techs with everybody else since everybody else has Alphabet. Plus, if Sisiutil did gamble on the Cultural victory, Alphabet would be needed for Drama (to get the Culture slider going and to build Theatres). EDIT: And I just checked, and Alphabet is also needed for Music, regardless of whether you follow the Drama path or the Literature path.

Calendar would allow for Plantations for the Sugar and another possible resouce to trade.

Otherwise, there aren't any techs I would beg for, because most others are either not necessary at this point or the AI would consider gifting the tech to give too much of an advantage away.

And as for the three I mentioned, I'd probably put Calendar at the top of the list.

Alphabet should be one Sisutil can obtain, because he can trade techs with everybody else since everybody else has Alphabet.

But for the same reason, Alphabet isn't as important to us. If everyone else has Alphabet, then you don't need it yourself for trading technologies. Its only value then is as a prerequisite -- for Drama, Literature, and indirectly Music and Military Tradition. Drama has some value in terms of happiness from theaters, but the others are mostly useless at this point. The Great Library has been built, we can't build the Heroic Epic, the National Epic would be useful, we don't need cathedrals because there's no way we're getting within miles of a cultural victory, and we're so far away from even thinking about needing Military Tradition for Cavalry that we don't even need to discuss that.

Plus, if Sisiutil did gamble on the Cultural victory, ...

If he gambles on the cultural victory, he's crazy. We have 2 religions in the empire, and every wonder we know about has already been built. Where is the culture going to come from?

Otherwise, there aren't any techs I would beg for, because most others are either not necessary at this point or the AI would consider gifting the tech to give too much of an advantage away.

You might be right, but that's not a good reason not to ask. As someone else mentioned earlier, if the AI doesn't want to give you a technology, they just say no. There's no diplomatic penalty for asking.

What a pickle!

If Cathy or Monty attacks in the near future, you're probably hosed - but, as a general rule of isolated island Civ warfare, I have found two things to usually be true:

1. AIs attacking across seas usually send wimpy landing parties sporadically instead of true stacks of doooooooooooom.

2. Enough catapults can repel almost any invasion.

Given that the AIs have grenadiers, rule #2 might not be true, but it certainly wouldn't hurt.

Cottages and Catapults are what you need. Do everything you can to be able to hurt an invasion force, even if it might be futile, and crank up your cottages to shoot for sufficient military techs to finally be able to breathe a sigh of relief about being attacked.

You can make up a huge amount of your tech disadvantage if you can get Steel before a couple of the AIs do - I doubt you'll get it first, and to have any chance, you need cottages doing their commerce thang.

If Monty and Catherine are gearing up to invade you, this game might be over - and badly. Here's hoping they're going to beat on each other instead........

Monty ,shall we say isn't the best preparer for a wars. (like SoD with no ships) I'm more worried about Cathy and NO leader will declare war if you're Friendly. Cats save us

Monty ,shall we say isn't the best preparer for a wars. (like SoD with no ships) I'm more worried about Cathy and NO leader will declare war if you're Friendly. Cats save us
with the notable exception of catherine

NO leader will declare war if you're Friendly
with the notable exception of catherine

This has been discussed a few times in this thread. There seems to be some disagreement on the issue, so I decided to settle it once and for all by looking into the XML leader definitions. I'm not sure I'll succeed in resolving it definitively, but here's what I found.

This looks like the piece that controls whether a leader will or won't declare war based on his or her attitude.

<NoWarAttitudeProb>
<AttitudeType>ATTITUDE_FRIENDLY</AttitudeType>
<iNoWarProb>100</iNoWarProb>
</NoWarAttitudeProb>

Each leader has a series of these elements with different values for AttitudeType and iNoWarProb. Now, the critical point here is that every leader except Barbarians, including Catherine, has a value of 100 for Friendly.

Unless I'm misinterpreting it (which is entirely possible), that seems to say pretty indisputably that Catherine will not declare war if her attitude is Friendly. She will, however, declare war with a 20% chance (80% of no war) when she's Pleased. That's the highest value for any AI, but it's not unique. There are six other leaders that also have an 80 for Pleased.

One possible explanation for the controversy is that this value could be modified based on difficulty level. Then, for example, the leader would have a decreased chance of no war if you played a Diety game. That seems intuitively reasonable, but I can't find anything in the handicap level definitions that supports this theory. And even if it's true, that would change all of the 100's for Friendly leaders, not just Catherine's.

I think the idea is that Catherine can be bribed against friendly civs. She won't declare war on her own without anything against friendly though.

Unless I'm misinterpreting it (which is entirely possible), that seems to say pretty indisputably that Catherine will not declare war if her attitude is Friendly. She will, however, declare war with a 20% chance (80% of no war) when she's Pleased. That's the highest value for any AI, but it's not unique. There are six other leaders that also have an 80 for Pleased.

One possible explanation for the controversy is that this value could be modified based on difficulty level. Then, for example, the leader would have a decreased chance of no war if you played a Diety game. That seems intuitively reasonable, but I can't find anything in the handicap level definitions that supports this theory. And even if it's true, that would change all of the 100's for Friendly leaders, not just Catherine's.

nah, i don't think it's difficulty level. i looked into it some more and i think it's actually the coding about bribing that got read by somebody somewhere as DoW code. and then the word got passed around. i know i read it, believed it, and saw something on the tables that said "friendly" on it that seemed to confirm it. anyway...

every leader has "DeclareWarRefuseAttitudeThreshold", you have to be closer to them than this limit for them to help you in a war.
every leader also has "DeclareWarThemRefuseAttitudeThreshold", our intended victim has to be no closer to the person we're bribing than this limit.

so, if we want catherine to attack gandhi, that's easy as sin. her values are: her attitude towards you (the one asking for the war) has to be better than annoyed, and her attitude towards asoka must be friendly or lower :lol:. she really is rather a slut. "if you have enough money and i'm not furious with you, anything is possible" is her motto i think.

gandhi, by contrast, has to be higher than pleased with us to consider helping, and has to be be annoyed or worse towards catherine. that guy has standards. ok ok, i will admit that he doesn't do the cute ponytail toss thing. :rolleyes:

those values, i think, are only for trades, which would be bribing into wars, not for the RNG rolls of "is it time to declare war". so it's not really the same thing as "catherine will declare as friendly" on her own out of the blue, altho that's how i read it when the rumor started going around. altho i suppose it does make her even more of a backstabber/dogpiler than we already knew she was, if that code applies across AIs too and not just between them and the human player. all i know is, i hate catherine. totally and completely. i'd rather face 4 isabella's in a game than 1 catherine some days.

In vanilla Civ Cathrine declared war on me while we were both at war with another AI. Backstabber of the worst kind...

Yes, I have noticed that Catherine is not only a peerless backstabber:mad: but she always has the tech lead. Luckily I've always been on her good side;)

Round 6: 1358 AD to 1520 AD

I started off the round by implementing some of your suggestions. I converted to Buddhism to try to court some favour with that religious block:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC15/ALC15_1520AD_01.jpg

I then made the rounds, hat in hand, begging for a handout, alms for the poor, a free tech, if'n you please, sir, and all that. To no avail:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC15/ALC15_1520AD_02.jpg

I got some good news a few turns later, though. I got my next Great Person, a scientist in Istanbul:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC15/ALC15_1520AD_03.jpg

I used him to lightbulb Philosophy, which a couple of the AI civs still did not have. I then made a couple of tech trades:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC15/ALC15_1520AD_04.jpg

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC15/ALC15_1520AD_05.jpg

Once that was done, I went into the tech tree and commenced my bee-line towards Democracy, betting the game on a switch to Emancipation to kick the CE into high gear:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC15/ALC15_1520AD_06.jpg

Shortly after that, once I had Calendar and could get the sugar available for trading, I switched civics:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC15/ALC15_1520AD_07.jpg

...since the Great Scientist had proved so useful, I was hoping to produce more of them in short order, all for the purpose of tech trading.

However, disaster then struck.

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC15/ALC15_1520AD_08.jpg

Yes, the event we had all been fearing most came to pass. And my very recent civic switch away from Slavery, of course, made the timing even worse. I couldn't whip units and had to wait 3 turns to do so. Nor could I gain any allies.

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC15/ALC15_1520AD_09.jpg

As a result, the 1 Knight, 3 Trebuchets, and 2 Grenadiers Cathy landed had a field day.

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC15/ALC15_1520AD_10.jpg

She then went on to raze Gaziantep and Ankara in short order. So I lost 3 cities very quickly, including two of my oldest and best ones, and my sole supplies of stone, horse, and gold went with them. Not good.

Finally I was able to change civics:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC15/ALC15_1520AD_11.jpg

I quickly whipped several units, mainly Catapults, Spearmen, and Macemen. Eventually, I managed to wipe out Catherine's expeditionary force, though obviously at a very high price.

I played a few more turns to wait for Cathy to talk to me again so that I could, hopefully, settle things. Hey, baby, you want some sugar? I got some sugar! I got your sugar right here!

You can guess what that earned me:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC15/ALC15_1520AD_12.jpg

Okay, I probably deserved that.

At any rate, things are not looking good. To add insult to injury, before the embers of Bursa were cold, Ragnar settled a city on the very same spot. I also have a German Galleon sniffing around, no doubt with a Settler on board as well.

I am building a couple of settlers to reclaim the spots left open by Gaziantep and Ankara, but I have a bad feeling that Cathy's on the way with more units, since she's unwilling to make peace. Then again, that could just be because I have no gold or techs to sweeten the deal. Just sugar, which is, this one time, evidently not sweet enough.

So here's a look at the situation. The map:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC15/ALC15_1520AD_13.jpg

Domestic advisor:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC15/ALC15_1520AD_14.jpg


... and the power graph:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC15/ALC15_1520AD_15.jpg


I might be able to hold Cathy off with Catapults. I might be able to reclaim one or even two of my lost city sites. However, I've lost a lot of much-needed population (not to mention 3 cities!) to whipping, and I now have another civilization on my turf. A relatively friendly one, granted, but my island is no longer my own.

I think it's going to be difficult to win from this position, and keep in mind that Cathy has not called off the dogs yet. I'm not saying I'm giving up, just that I don't have a lot of cause for optimism.

Somebody call me a WAAHHHHHHmbulance.

You might be right, but that's not a good reason not to ask. As someone else mentioned earlier, if the AI doesn't want to give you a technology, they just say no. There's no diplomatic penalty for asking.

there's no diplo penalty for asking, but techs given as gifts do count towards WFYABTA. that likely won't be much of an issue in this particular game, especially in light of recent events, just something i wanted to add for folks who aren't aware of that. (i'm quite sure you yourself are!)

S - have i mentioned lately that i HATE cathy? oh yeah i did, was only 3 or 4 posts ago. well i still do. even more so after what she did to you!

What a round. Big props for staying with it. In situations like these, I kill to desktop or reload from an old save. Which brings up a potential question: IF you can't get out of this, will you start a new game or try loading from a save to see if you can win using a different strategy? Not sure if you have a policy for this already, but it'd be interesting to see if is possible to win this with a bit different luck (like with the barbs...).

Of course, I ain't saying you lost this yet. I'd be delighted to see it won! Just know I couldn't:crazyeye:

If nothing else, this ALC was good to give people an idea about the thought process that goes into making decisions, and that sometimes they work, sometimes they didn't.

Case in point: Switching to Buddhism, while on one hand could be used to warm up to the Buddhist, seemed to speed up Catherine's desire to invade. I wonder how much she's at odds with the Buddhist block (don't believe I saw a screenshot of what Catherine's relations with the other AI civs were like) and if that may have prompted her to strike sooner, and if a switch had been made to "no state religion" if that may have delayed her.

But hindsight is 20/20 and all that. Like I said, this ALC, like others, gives you insight into the thought process behind decisions made.

EDIT: I will add one other thing... I'm not the best CIV player around, but I will say this: Forget the settlers, forget trying to reclaiming the land you lost. Get the military going. If you still think you can pull off a win, you should concentrate on keeping the land you still have and not try to reclaim what you lost just yet. Besides, chances are good that Freddy and his Galleon will plop a Settler down before yours are down.

Well our worst fears came to pass. Not entirely unexpected though. I guess we're now at the point where we have to decide if it's worth continuing. I don't see any way this game can be salvaged. If we look at the best case scenario (make peace with Cathy without any more losses and resettle the two cities that were razed) you'll still have lost one city, have two other cities restarting pop growth and infrastructure, and your other cities have been seriously hurt by whipping. The situation was already desparate but IMO this makes it hopeless.

If you do decide to continue you might want to go to 0% research to try to build up a cash reserve to buy peace with Cathy. Also take a look at your cities, some are working :smoke: tiles.

I would argue for the sake of completionism that the game be played until the "you are defeated" screen pops up. However, if this was my own game I probably would have quit a while ago :D.

A number of different factors... er, factored into this loss. Could it have been played better? Almost certainly. But I think it's entertaining to watch a defeat for once, and let's be honest: who would have won in this? The barbs would have killed me too. I think a number of the shadow gmes which were victories did not have to deal with some of the variables that have confounded Sis.

Ouch....

Kudos for still sticking with it, but there was zero what you could do.

In my opinion this game is definetly lost, I don´t see you having a chance to pull yourself out, but I am happy to be proven wrong. In any case, a great game, the ALC were becoming too easy it seemed so far. Not anymore.:)

Does this mean you will retry Mehmed if things go wrong?


Don´t worry about the shadow games. Knowing that you are isolated right from the start makes a HUGE difference in a game..

Case in point: Switching to Buddhism, while on one hand could be used to warm up to the Buddhist, seemed to speed up Catherine's desire to invade. I wonder how much she's at odds with the Buddhist block (don't believe I saw a screenshot of what Catherine's relations with the other AI civs were like) and if that may have prompted her to strike sooner, and if a switch had been made to "no state religion" if that may have delayed her.

i don't think it sped her up, i think she was just being cathy. i do think NSR might have delayed it by taking away any heathen modifier he had from conf or from buddhism (i did recommend going buddhist tho, for buddies). i don't think changing from his own brand of heathen to the group form made any difference though. she's not even at Annoyed in the screenshot where she's declaring, she's only Cautious.

granted, i am biased because i hate her, and granted anybody can declare at cautious, but to me that indicates it wasn't that S got a big fat pile of negative modifiers in a short amount of time. i dunno, last time she was pleased, so he obviously did drop some, and i didn't open the saves to see how big the drop is. i just disagree with you that the change sped her up, i think if you're heathen you're heathen. i do agree that a change to NSR might have delayed her, but i didn't recommend it, i wanted S to have friends, and i think that she (being cathy) would have come at us anyway. see bias mentioned above ;).

Don´t worry about the shadow games. Knowing that you are isolated right from the start makes a HUGE difference in a game..

oh even the same game played by different people over the space of 40 turns can go completely different, mostly due to luck. i'm in a sort-of SG atm, we all play the same 40 turns in a round and then compare results. this latest round was a doozy. we had results ranging from my happy peacenik universe where nobody knows gunpowder except brennus and bismarck, and no shots were fired all 40 years; a round where cyrus declared war on us (india), we're in a peace treaty now and he has at least 2 riflemen in every city that we can see and we're not yet done researching replaceable parts; and a round where a little green frog from france who shall remain nameless lucked into a mostly-technologically-backwards roosevelt waltzing over the water from the other continent to give him zillions of trading opportunities. i think caber---errrr, mr. anonymous---took future tech 438 with liberalism. in some everybody knows everybody, in some the two continents haven't met yet. this was in the space of 40 turns, we all started from one particular 1000 AD save from the previous round. so we all had the same cities, techs, and political situation. we were weak on the power charts going into it, and we knew that, but i don't think that the 2 or 3 that cyrus declared on did anything blatant to piss him off severely. events just converged that way in their universe, and they didn't in mine.

it's just really fascinating to see how different the same exact game can turn out in such a relatively short time, 1000-1400 AD. it's fascinating to watch S's too but we don't get to see alternate universes, and if we do, the player has prior information about the map and/or the civs in the game already. those spoilered ones turn out different but i'm certain even non-spoilered ones would too. there's luck in civ as in life.

plus there's the moodiness of the AI to deal with. have i mentioned that i hate cathy?

i don't think it sped her up, i think she was just being cathy. i do think NSR might have delayed it by taking away any heathen modifier he had from conf or from buddhism (i did recommend going buddhist tho, for buddies). i don't think changing from his own brand of heathen to the group form made any difference though. she's not even at Annoyed in the screenshot where she's declaring, she's only Cautious.

granted, i am biased because i hate her, and granted anybody can declare at cautious, but to me that indicates it wasn't that S got a big fat pile of negative modifiers in a short amount of time. i dunno, last time she was pleased, so he obviously did drop some, and i didn't open the saves to see how big the drop is. i just disagree with you that the change sped her up, i think if you're heathen you're heathen. i do agree that a change to NSR might have delayed her, but i didn't recommend it, i wanted S to have friends, and i think that she (being cathy) would have come at us anyway. see bias mentioned above ;).



oh even the same game played by different people over the space of 40 turns can go completely different, mostly due to luck. i'm in a sort-of SG atm, we all play the same 40 turns in a round and then compare results. this latest round was a doozy. we had results ranging from my happy peacenik universe where nobody knows gunpowder except brennus and bismarck, and no shots were fired all 40 years; a round where cyrus declared war on us (india), we're in a peace treaty now and he has at least 2 riflemen in every city that we can see and we're not yet done researching replaceable parts; and a round where a little green frog from france who shall remain nameless lucked into a mostly-technologically-backwards roosevelt waltzing over the water from the other continent to give him zillions of trading opportunities. i think caber---errrr, mr. anonymous---took future tech 438 with liberalism. in some everybody knows everybody, in some the two continents haven't met yet. this was in the space of 40 turns, we all started from one particular 1000 AD save from the previous round. so we all had the same cities, techs, and political situation. we were weak on the power charts going into it, and we knew that, but i don't think that the 2 or 3 that cyrus declared on did anything blatant to piss him off severely. events just converged that way in their universe, and they didn't in mine.

it's just really fascinating to see how different the same exact game can turn out in such a relatively short time, 1000-1400 AD. it's fascinating to watch S's too but we don't get to see alternate universes, and if we do, the player has prior information about the map and/or the civs in the game already. those spoilered ones turn out different but i'm certain even non-spoilered ones would too. there's luck in civ as in life.

plus there's the moodiness of the AI to deal with. have i mentioned that i hate cathy?


Actually i think Suisuti got it bad due to mass whipping and not letting his cities grow and bad luck. By the same time he could have a bunch of 17 cities and outproduce the other Ai and so start trading earlier. Ofcourse by the time he could get the other Ai to pleased so they don't declare a war it could be too late if he was unlucky. But because he would be higher in the power graph and started trading earlier it would be more unlikely for war to happen.

Let's face it: this Ottoman 'Empire' is our Earth's Africa.

Period.

Isolated starts r so difficult. Never did them right. What Cathy did to you was correct. I would love to hear US when WE could play with Turkish axemen while we r wearing Grenadier uniforms...

Looks like aelf's bad luck is contagious. Man, I freakin hate Catherine. If she's not spreading her legs, she's sharpening her knives. I advocated a defensive pact and bee-line to the Internet before, but it looks like that's not even possible now. I blame the isolated start. I now believe isolated starts are not even worth playing. I would quit now, but if you want to complete the game just for the sake of completing it, more power to you. Winning after all this would make you a CIV god.

Actually i think Suisuti got it bad due to mass whipping and not letting his cities grow and bad luck. By the same time he could have a bunch of 17 cities and outproduce the other Ai and so start trading earlier. Ofcourse by the time he could get the other Ai to pleased so they don't declare a war it could be too late if he was unlucky. But because he would be higher in the power graph and started trading earlier it would be more unlikely for war to happen.

Yes, whipping was probably too hard. Also the CE did not really materialize, and a SE would have been better in those circumstances, methink (at least that what shown by my own failed attempt).

However, this was really a difficult start, and i dont think many would have pulled it out.

Have to give Sisiutl some repect for playing that one out. I probably would have quit as soon as the landing party hit.:badcomp: Anyway, if you plan on sticking it out, I would focus on making the landing party dead on arrival. Forget settling your old cities; if you're quick, you can force them(the new cities, frederick WILL settle on your island) into revolt by putting cultural pressure on them(Time for a culture bomb!)Cities built directly on former sites of cities will be half of the new city's nationality, but the other half will be of the razed city's nationality, in this case, yours. Should be easier to revolt if half the city pop are Ottoman.:D

I would quit, that's a fact.
I did quit in the shadow game for much less :lol:

Now seeing a defensive war from time to time can be very enlightening.

Face it, the game is lost. Even if you manage to fend off Catherine, she'll build a new army and re-invade...probably with Cossacks. :eek:

You can try reloading from the save right before switching away from Slavery, but I don't think the outcome would be much different.

The options open to you now are erm...erm...

erm...

:confused:

I admit, it's looking a little bit tricky at the moment.

I actually don't mind seeing a defeat. You and aelf were wiping the floor with the AI before this week.

CIVILIZATION IV: REVENGE OF THE AI.

Actually, isolated starts are playable. But you need to get the economy up much faster than S did, preferably an SE at first. It still would be more difficult than a normal game at the same difficulty level, though.

Barbs are a problem, but lots of fogbusting with chariots should do the trick. I guess not starting near a strategic resource was bad luck. Still, I think it wasn't impossible. But, anyway, this game wasn't in vain. It did show us how challenging an isolated start can be and kind of gave us a measure of how soon you need to get your economy going. Impressive effort, and I hope we see a new start soon. Continuing this game isn't worth the time.

But, anyway, this game wasn't in vain. It did show us how challenging an isolated start can be and kind of gave us a measure of how soon you need to get your economy going.

i 100% agree with that. seeing it was eye-opening for me, even before we met miss i-hate-her-i-hate-her. particularly given that it's been an awfully long time since i had an isolated start of my own. so long that i hadn't even realized how long it had been until i saw yours; i'd kind of forgotten they exist. i feel rather spoiled now. i'm off to knock on wood since i'm superstitious and hope i didn't jinx myself for my next games by saying that.

Everyone gets unlucky once in a while. You could play it out, but I would only suggest you play it out until someone starts building spaceship parts. Then, if things aren't looking better, *then* quit.

Today I tried playing Korea, on Monarch, just to relax. First I got hit by Hatty with her capital 4 tiles next to mine, so I spend the first 3 milienia freaking about war chariots and cultural pressure. Then I setup my usual great library, national epic for liberalism, and I got FOUR great artists in a row, each of them only TEN percent. That's one in ten thousand chance. The only other person on my continent was Tokugawa, and he never trades, period. So I had to research everything, and then I lost liberalism by 3 turns. Took me forever to take over the continent, then Mansa on the other frick-in far continent launched, with Isabella and Elizabeth as capitulated vassals.

Talk about fustration.

wow that sucks man. isolated starts are auto rerolls for me personally but thats probably a skill level issue. atleast you stuck it out but honestly this game is lost. cathy's next stack is likely to arrive soon, and take your capitol or worse. still if you want to finish might as well, but might be better to just move on to the next game

NaZ

Actually, isolated starts are playable. But you need to get the economy up much faster than S did, preferably an SE at first. It still would be more difficult than a normal game at the same difficulty level, though.

Seeing this game makes me feel better about the hash I've made of games in similar circumstances. ;) Although S did far better than I have ever achieved. It would be nice to see a successful recovery from such a position. :mischief:

However I do appreciate the large amount of work involved from S in running these challenges so I think S should give this game up. In the end there's no enjoyment to be had for S given the current state of the game. Perhaps in the future when S feels like more of a challenge?

For the next game I think it's worth someone else checking the game first to avoid a similar start happening.

The scary part about the current save is that all your cities are redded out so currently no chance of buying peace from Cathy.
I did actually play on a few turns from your 1370 save, I swopped to NSR instead of buddhism and was doing ok up to 1510 (I gave up at that point because it was peaceful, I was getting on ok with AIs, research was up to 70% and I'd completed my shadow already).
You should carry on from this save as hopeless as it currently seems (but maybe Cat will accept peace after another couple of cities, you swop out of buddhism (and maybe check out her fave civic)). The game ain't lost until its lost.
You could for your own education replay your game from last posted save except go NSR istead of buddhism to see if Cat still attacks.

Wow, rough luck. An educational ALC game for me regardless of the outcome. I moved up to Prince a few weeks ago and was able to get my first isolated win on that difficulty last week, thanks in part to the strategy discussions earlier in this thread.

Hmmm..well, it'd be a good idea to break down your defense in-depth. I'm sure there aren't many of us experienced with fighting under a sizable tech DEFICIT. It could be enlightening. Definitely, definitely looking bad, but I still think it can happen. Of course, I am optimistic almost to the point of being blind to the possibility of unfavorable outcomes, especially when judging others, so take my upbeat attitude with a grain of salt....

If you do decide to continue you might want to go to 0% research to try to build up a cash reserve to buy peace with Cathy. Also take a look at your cities, some are working :smoke: tiles.
I agree about the tiles, but I was trying to max out hammers to get units built. Kind of an emergency sitch, ya know? I'll switch the tile assignments first thing.
Does this mean you will retry Mehmed if things go wrong?

Don´t worry about the shadow games. Knowing that you are isolated right from the start makes a HUGE difference in a game..
I haven't even looked at the shadow games. I was very glad that those were carried off to a separate thread. I would suggest that those so inclined continue that trend in future ALC games.

As for retrying Mehmed... probably not, or maybe sometime later. I know he didn't get a fair shake in this game because of the start, but I think a retry would be too repetitive. I may come back to him later, but frankly, I'm more inclined to move on to one of the other leaders many of you have been clamoring at me to try on for size.

While it was educational to try out an isolated start, I will be avoiding them in future ALCs. The main reason is that they obviously make it difficult if not impossible to give me a chance to leverage all of the leader's unique characteristics. Case in point: I really doubt that Janissaries are going to see ANY action in this game. And the Hammams have not been as big a help as we all thought they would be. So I will be PMing the initial saves to Welnic from now on, who has graciously volunteered to do an initial check of them for me to ensure that the map is conducive to the goals of the ALC. I like fractal maps, but I almost always restart when they give me an isolated start.
Man, I freakin hate Catherine. If she's not spreading her legs, she's sharpening her knives.
:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

Best. Leader. Description. EVAR.
Impressive effort, and I hope we see a new start soon. Continuing this game isn't worth the time.

You should carry on from this save as hopeless as it currently seems (but maybe Cat will accept peace after another couple of cities, you swop out of buddhism (and maybe check out her fave civic)). The game ain't lost until its lost.
Consistent advice as usual. :lol:

I think I will continue the game just to see how things play out. We've all seen how hopeless the AI can actually be at achieving a victory, so who knows? I mean, Cathy's invasion stack was actually rather pathetic. In most games I would have wiped it out before it had a chance to do any damage. We all know that for an inter-continental invasion you should bring along at least three or four times the units she did. It was only the fact that I was SO backward that she met with any success. I had no military units because they would have been too primitive to deter an invasion or effectively fight against it. Though in retrospect, I probably should have switched all my city builds to Catapults as soon as I got Construction, but hindsight is 20/20, right?

In any case, I'm interested in playing it out just because I, like most of you, would normally have abandoned this game at any of 3 points: (a) when I discovered I was isolated; (b) when I met the other civs and saw how far behind I was; and (c) when Cathy invaded. I can't help wondering if I sometimes quit too easily. What happens if I don't? I guess we'll find out.

I'd actually have put a (d) in there (well, chronologically, it'd be (b)), when you got raped by the Barbs. By keeping you from early expansion/tile improvement, they pretty much killed your game. I think it would have been possible to recover, but only if too many things went perfectly - which we've seen didn't happen. Closer Copper or Horses, or a faster hookup of them might have made this game a much easier one. In theory, at least.

Still, it's been a great read.

Bh

If you never play isolated starts then you'll never learn how to beat isolated starts. Tougher yes, as tough as the jump to emperor, no.

Well, it's hard to traverse the learning curve of playing isolated while writing up the game as a demonstration. Isolated starts are all about developing a coherent economic plan & choosing the techs that are absolutely necessary to carry out that plan. Yeah, there are lots of techs that need to be backfilled, but when played right, even when isolated, it's possible to stay at or near the leading edge of techs with the AI. I played a shadow game, following the early HR/Bureaucracy/CE template & played to a peaceful space race win in 1911. The only time Janissaries ever fired a shot in anger was against a barbarian Longbow. That kind of a game is going to be boring for people to read about, but there's arguably more strategizing in isolated games than the typical build an army and steamroll as many neighbors as possible game. People do like conflict, I suppose.

Anyway, you're a good sport for giving this isolated start a go. It was strange to see the shoe on the other foot, militarywise. ;)

Going to have to say that you're beaten. Cathy invaded much earlier than I expected she would, if you had the time to hit chemistry you probably could have survived verses her cossacks, although I don't doubt that you would have lost a city or two still.

I must be one of the few people out there who loves isolated starts.
I definitely enjoy the challenge.

If you're going to try to fight on, you need to concentrate on military. I think you should push to Gunpowder for the Jans - Jans + cats will actually kill units with a passable tradeoff. The war won't end until Cathy's back is breaking from war weariness and that's obviously going to need a lot of dead knights. Continual war with Cathy will kill you because she's going to be more advanced for a very, very long time.

Man, I freakin hate Catherine.

me too!

If she's not spreading her legs, she's sharpening her knives.

are we absolutely positively sure she never does both at the same time?

If you're going to try to fight on, you need to concentrate on military. I think you should push to Gunpowder for the Jans - Jans + cats will actually kill units with a passable tradeoff. The war won't end until Cathy's back is breaking from war weariness and that's obviously going to need a lot of dead knights. Continual war with Cathy will kill you because she's going to be more advanced for a very, very long time.


Yep, get gunpowder before continuing the beeline to democracy.
Once you've got democracy you'll have Jans and Cavalry, at least then you'll have a fighting chance.

me too!



are we absolutely positively sure she never does both at the same time?

She can sharpen my knife any day of the week ... :)

I agree that you should grab Jans and calvary, but keep in mind that will require some deviaton from the beeline. If you grab democracy and hang on, you may be able to bribe catherine into peace.

I can't check the save game right now but I don't know how close you are to GP(Gunpowder) tech wise, If you do decide to make a beeline for that tech, which route is faster? The north or South route?

Do you have Fuedalism & Guilds?

How close is your GS gonna pop For education lightbulb?

Well' I'm gonna bet on the northen route for a quicker beeline, although the South Route seems more military Better, if you still have Iron and Horses hooked up by the time you get Guilds you can defend yourself with Knights and later Pinch Knights which are more effective against Grenadiers then Pinch Jans because of the higher strength.

I haven't check your save but it appears that your pop is low and your Research has taken a hit due to all that whipping and working production orientated tiles. If you have any chance of a defence, I Suggest Focusing and commerce and Pray you'll reach that key tech before Cathy reaches you with her units.

If she comes with Cossacks it's as good as over unless you can research Engineering in time for Pikes.

Btw what have you learned from this Isolation start?

I've been playing a couple of Isolated games and realized that.

A) Defending against Barbs, Hooking up Horses or Copper ASAP is 1st Priority. If they’re too far away, Archery or Sailing needs to be Researched Immediately. Sailing because I've had resources on the other end of my Continent once and I started with Fishing (and not Hunting) seemed like a better choice. Also Do not Settle your 2nd city until you know you have a relatively high chance that you'll survive the Barb Attack (includes Pillaging). I believe you said in a previous post that Barbs don't attack until you have (n+1) Cities on your continent or something like that...

B) Monarchy is very important tech if your island is low on Happiness Resources or they'll take too long to hook up eg - calendar resources. You need to raise the Capital’s Pop ASAP to work those Cottages.

C) Great People are very important for light bulbing, depending on your tech goal, they're be very important for tech trading once you contact the AI.

I've beelined to Optics by 800AD in one game once, it required Oracle SS(Slingshot) to MC and 2 GS to light bulb Machinery & Optics.

If your Capital Focused the Oracle SS to Monarchy, 1st GP is a GS for Academy 2nd GP is a GM for CS SS. Remember to beeline to Currency early for Markets. This method makes researching Techs a Whole lot easier.

If your Philosophical the Philosophy beeline would appear to be the better option. Oracle SS to COL and Create a GS to LB(lightbulb) Philosophy then switch to Pacifism.

Lesson learn next time we play an Isolated start we need to focus on those things, Barb Defence and Economy. Just my 2 cents.

I checked and it seems that he's only 2 techs (finishing printing press and Nationalism) from military tradition and only 1 tech(education) from gunpowder. While nationalism is on the beeline to democracy, Education isn't, so unless you're counting on a GS lightbulbing it for you, Gunpowder seems far, far off. Even though the Janissaries are very powerful against all units older than them, Sisiutil is behing EVERYONE on techs, and therefore most of our rivals probably already have gunpowder. So I see calvary as being our go-to unit to attack quickly, plug up gaps and lead counter-charges. Unfortunaly, we may never see the Janissaires in their prime.
:sad: :( :cry: :gripe: :wallbash: :nope: :scared: :aargh: [pissed] :badcomp: :faint:

Unfortunately building cavalry requires Gunpowder as well as MT so that isn't going to be a quick solution on the way to Democracy.

I checked and it seems that he's only 2 techs (finishing printing press and Nationalism) from military tradition and only 1 tech(education) from gunpowder. While nationalism is on the beeline to democracy, Education isn't, so unless you're counting on a GS lightbulbing it for you, Gunpowder seems far, far off. Even though the Janissaries are very powerful against all units older than them, Sisiutil is behing EVERYONE on techs, and therefore most of our rivals probably already have gunpowder. So I see calvary as being our go-to unit to attack quickly, plug up gaps and lead counter-charges. Unfortunaly, we may never see the Janissaires in their prime.
:sad: :( :cry: :gripe: :wallbash: :nope: :scared: :aargh: [pissed] :badcomp: :faint:

Does Sisiutil have Music? MT require Music be fore you can research it.

Forgot that.:hammer2:

To expand on my previous post, What I meant to say was that you should try to stay on the democracy beeline, but that military tradition can be used for things other than cavalry,namely, defensive pacts. Using Great People to lightbulb education and gunpowder, will allow you to not really deviate from your beeline and use both democracy and MT as bargaining chips for more tech. This will also increase everyone's opinoin of you so that could help on the way to a potential diplo victory.
p.s. Nationalism also unlocks the civic by the same name, which is perfect for dealing with crises like the one we're facing

Uh-oh. He doesn't even have alphabet.

I played the game through to its bitter end, more or less, earlier today. However, I had to finish my taxes tonight (April 30th is the Canadian deadline, so NO, I'm not LATE). Which means I'm spent. :sleep:

Yes, I lost. Surprise! Details tomorrow night.

Stunned silence :sad: .

She can sharpen my knife any day of the week ... :)


Just make sure you double-bag that knife in latex. Catherine gets around...

I am sorry to hear it.

On the other hand, it shows that this is a real challenge! The title isn't "All Leaders Walkover", after all.

Kudos to Sisiutl for playing it out.


Waldo

I am sorry to hear it.

On the other hand, it shows that this is a real challenge! The title isn't "All Leaders Walkover", after all.

Kudos to Sisiutl for playing it out.


Waldo

right
+ this isolated start was quite difficult. I had to admit a loss in my shadow game too, and those who managed to get through to a space win had a hard time obviously.

:goodjob: sisiutil. Can't win them all.
I say try mehmed again, on a continent (or pangea but that's cheating ;)) map, and enjoy the janissaries ;).

Both Sis and aelf losing? There must be something wrong in the cosmos.

Personally, I believe Sisiutil lost mostly because of bad luck. Sure, he could've optimised his play more, but there was nothing he could've done against Catherine, or the eventual launch. Aelf, although playing on immortal difficulty, made the mistake of accepting vassals. I feel his mistake was not razing Isabella's cities and pressing the advance to finish her off, and it costed him economically, as you pay for your vassal cities' maintenance.

But an occasional loss keeps it interesting. The number of views of these threads are off the charts!!

Personally, I believe Sisiutil lost mostly because of bad luck. Sure, he could've optimised his play more, but there was nothing he could've done against Catherine, or the eventual launch. Aelf, although playing on immortal difficulty, made the mistake of accepting vassals. I feel his mistake was not razing Isabella's cities and pressing the advance to finish her off, and it costed him economically, as you pay for your vassal cities' maintenance.

Nope. That's not the cause. Rather, I should have just accepted that further expansion after Isabella was not feasible. Sure, that would mean capturing Cordoba, but Isabella would still become a vassal.

And, not to put Sisiutil down or anything, but some of us have made comments about how the game could have been played better even before defeat was clear. I believe it was possible to win with only a little luck.

I am personally glad to see both of them lose. My self esteem and self worth go up when others fail, so I root for that.

Ok, not really, but it is nice to see. It was getting to the point that it was like watching a big Hollywood movie, you knew how it was going to end. Entertaining, but predictable. Even when they made some decisions that went against the accepted norms and rinse and repeat strategies, a win almost always seemed on the horizon.

Now with the chance that they might lose, it makes it all the more interesting.

i learn from my own mistakes and i really appreciate the chance to learn from the mistakes and misfortunes of others. i can't imagine ever being as brave as aelf and S are, to put their games out there for public scrutiny like they do, but i'm very very glad that they do. add in that both have writing styles that make me laugh, and obviously i'll be subscribed to all their challenge threads, win or lose. even if they do one on settler level *giggle*.

i learn from my own mistakes and i really appreciate the chance to learn from the mistakes and misfortunes of others. i can't imagine ever being as brave as aelf and S are, to put their games out there for public scrutiny like they do, but i'm very very glad that they do. add in that both have writing styles that make me laugh, and obviously i'll be subscribed to all their challenge threads, win or lose. even if they do one on settler level *giggle*.

I don't need to drop down to Settler level to salvage my bruised ego; an off-line game as Rome remedies that. My Praetorians are currently kicking the Better AI's sorry butt. :D

Oh, by the way, Cathy didn't launch her space ship (though she did start building it). She didn't need to.

I'm intrigued as to how it turned out, loss though it was. Taxes though...damnit. Another fun thing that awaits me once I leave the protective halls of college....

Sis,

Thanks for playing this one out. While there most certainly were points during the game where a change in strategy or simply making a different choice might have lead to victory, only the most gifted will see those points while they happen and react properly most of the time. Had this been a Game of the Month and the rng had sent so many barbs, very few would have won. Still, another great learning experience for those of us who would have restarted very early on in this one.

I think the key problem in this game was managing the barbs on an isolated start with strategic resources so far away. One lesson I draw from this game is that barb management is key in such situations and all early decisions should be driven by that factor. When other AI's are around the barbs are much less of a problem.

I love Mehmed as a leader, but this was a nightmare start.

I don't need to drop down to Settler level to salvage my bruised ego; an off-line game as Rome remedies that. My Praetorians are currently kicking the Better AI's sorry butt. :D

Oh, by the way, Cathy didn't launch her space ship (though she did start building it). She didn't need to.

you goofball! you know i wasn't suggesting you're a settler now :crazyeye:. you'd be at least chieftain with us to help you out. :p i just wanted an excuse to giggle. go praets tho, good to hear!

did they all start building ships? my most fun defeat was OCC aiming for diplo. i didn't have rocketry, i might not have had railroads since this was deity and that ain't my level. they were all building their ships. i did build the UN but they had so many DPs going that i just couldn't swing the votes in time; got close enough that i was proud tho. it was fun because i had just one city, so turns were very quick, maybe 5 seconds at that point. hit enter, hear multiple parts rolling off the line, check one city screen, hit enter, hear multiple parts again, repeat *giggle*. all the while knowing i couldn't do a thing about it. they actually do sound like they're rolling off an assembly line, but i'd never noticed that before.

you'd not have gotten to hear so many so quickly, even if they were all building ships, since your empire wasn't as teeny as mine. and you'd likely not have been as amused. i'd gone into the game not expecting to get even close, it was a goof since OCCs are quick and i wanted to play around with politics. and i tend to giggle more than you i suspect.

Originally Posted by Rancid Sushi:
If she's not spreading her legs, she's sharpening her knives.


are we absolutely positively sure she never does both at the same time?

Well, if Sharon Stone plays her in the movie version of Civ 4...."Basic Instinct 3: Ice Picks and Nice D[censored]ks", we'll know she definintely does.

By the way, wasn't Sharon Stone's character in BI also named Catherine, or am I just a little confused? If she was, I wonder what the programmers were watching when they programmed our Cathy's AI?:rolleyes:

And on the subject of wondering, I wonder if there's hidden code (a la Grand Theft Auto) which unlocks a leaderhead version of Cathy reproducing the famous "interrogation" scene from Basic Instinct? :eek:


Good luck Sisiutil, with finishing Mehmed up. Who knows, you may stumble upon an accidental space race vic in spite of everything, thanks to the AI's part-building incompetence...or you could always go back to that cultural victory idea again. ;)

EDIT: Oh well, like everyone else has said, it was a good try in the face of long odds and a difficult start. That's one of the reason I usually play with most settings on random - it keeps boredom down even though sometimes the challenges are insurmountable, at least for me. :)

Round 7: 1520 AD to 1836 AD
Part 1

I started the round with Philosophy in hand, a tech which only Montezuma did not possess. Unfortunately, he wasn't willing to trade any techs for it, but he was willing to part with some gold:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC15/ALC15_1836AD_01.jpg

This turned out to be one of the best moves I made in a dismal game. It improved Monty's attitude towards me from "Annoyed" to "Cautious", and suddenly he was willing to have Open Borders and trade techs. Not that I had anything to trade to him, but that would soon change.

I also went about reclaiming some of the land I'd lost:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC15/ALC15_1836AD_02.jpg

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC15/ALC15_1836AD_03.jpg

The first city reclaimed that much-needed gold (for happiness, especially when combined with forges), while the second city secured the fifth sugar tile and put cultural pressure on Stuttgart.

My next Great Person appeared, but was not a Great Scientist, unfortunately:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC15/ALC15_1836AD_04.jpg

Pop him for Polytheism? What the heck for? I settled him in Edirne, my shrine city, for the extra income. That was definitely the best use for him.

And I was back to my usual tricks, changing civics like I'm spiritual when I'm not. Once I researched Constitution I changed to Representation and Caste System; then, several turns later, I finished researching Democracy...

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC15/ALC15_1836AD_05.jpg

To help with cottage growth, of course.

In addition, neither Cyrus nor Monty had Democracy, and both, like me, were suffering from the unhappiness caused by all those other civs running it. So I was able to get some decent techs out of it:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC15/ALC15_1836AD_06.jpg

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC15/ALC15_1836AD_07.jpg

And Cyrus also threw in, FINALLY, a world map, and a very complete one at that:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC15/ALC15_1836AD_08.jpg

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC15/ALC15_1836AD_09.jpg

By the way, if you venture into the save, you'll find that Moscow has no less than two friggin' gold mines in its fat cross. Both of them--wait for it--next to rivers. Frankly, for all the talk about careful economic management when you're isolated, I think the deck was stacked against me this time.

Catherine kept refusing to reach a peaceful settlement, even after I built up over 500 gold in my treasury. Instead, a few turns later, she landed another stack:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC15/ALC15_1836AD_10.jpg

Catapults against Cossacks... yeah, that's a fair fight. Give me some credit, I still didn't give up. Diyarbakir fell on the next turn, of course:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC15/ALC15_1836AD_11.jpg


What I did was I left only one unit in each city, a weak one at that, and sent all the others to Antalya. I eventually managed to take down all of those Cossacks, though it cost me several units, mostly Catapults, Spearmen, and Macemen. I also sent a few Catapults at her Artillery and SAM Infantry. Catherine then turtled, hiding in that forested tile within German territory. I left my forces sitting in Antalya, waiting for her units to venture out into open ground. She had tech and strength on me, but I had numbers: over a dozen catapults, and nearly as many Macemen. She stayed hidden. Smart girl. Well, no she's not really that smart, and has about as much courage as your average chicken, but I would have done the same thing after a failed invasion attempt.

I finished researching Liberalism (finally!) and switched civics again, and for the last time in the game:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC15/ALC15_1836AD_12.jpg

I was hoping that Free Speech would help with the economy, as well as reclaiming a few more tiles, and that Free Religion would help with happiness, research, and diplomatic relations. Catherine, however, still refused to consider a cease fire, never mind peace.

I was now starting to gain some techs on the AI. Well, on Monty, at least:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC15/ALC15_1836AD_13.jpg

So Monty was turning into my best buddy! Go figure. He's my Mansa Musa in this game. Yes, that tells you just how sad my situation was!

Unfortunately Monty decided to get a little too friendly:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC15/ALC15_1836AD_14.jpg

Hmmm, yeah, Monty right on my doorstep. That's a comforting though. And with Riflemen, no less. And look at how fraidy-cat Cathy ducked her units into that city on a hill!

Fortunately, a few turns later, I had a useful tech for a good defensive unit, especially to counter any Rifles coming my way:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC15/ALC15_1836AD_15.jpg

Thus far, I'd held off two invasions by the AI. I'd lost a little territory, but still had a decent-sized civ going. My GNP was going up, along with my power rating. I set my focus on a bee-line to the Internet, hoping to get swamped with techs which I could trade, and maybe finally get Cathy to sign a peace treaty. I was far behind, but not without hope.

Then the wheels came off.

To be continued...

Round 7: 1520 AD to 1836 AD
Part 2

As the round started, I had still more reason to be optimistic. I got another Great Scientist:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC15/ALC15_1836AD_16.jpg

I can't recall what he would have lightbulbed, but it wasn't on the route to the Internet, and it wasn't anything everybody else didn't have. So an Academy seemed like the best use for him.

Not everything was looking up, however. Cathy still adamantly refused my peaceful overtures, and decided to harass me further:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC15/ALC15_1836AD_17.jpg

That Battleship made short work of my pathetic Triremes and my fishing boats. So I had growth problems in two of my coastal cities, and health problems almost everywhere. Grrr...

I then obtained another useful military technology:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC15/ALC15_1836AD_18.jpg

Cannon! Wonderful. Much more effective at ruining an invader's day than Catapults.

With Steel in hand, I now decided to pursue my desperate, hail Mary bee-line:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC15/ALC15_1836AD_19.jpg

There were a lot of useful, trade-worthy techs along the way. If I could just hold off Cathy, I might actually have a chance at some form of victory.

As I mentioned, my GNP was on the rise:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC15/ALC15_1836AD_20.jpg

I was also starting to slowly steal tiles from the foreign cities on my island.

One possible victory condition got removed, however. Frederick completed the UN, and Catherine, the largest civ, became his competitor in the SG elections:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC15/ALC15_1836AD_21.jpg

Part of me was kind of hoping Catherine would attempt a diplomatic victory, so I could end this game the way aelf did his recent IMC.

Then I got another cause for hope:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC15/ALC15_1836AD_22.jpg

YES!! Crazy Monty declared war on the most technologically advanced civ on the planet! I was hoping this would distract her from me. Maybe she'd even finally agree to peace so she could focus on one enemy rather than two.

And it might have turned out that way, if it wasn't for the next-lowest guy on the totem pole deciding that I looked like a tasty treat:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC15/ALC15_1836AD_23.jpg

And yet... and yet... I STILL didn't give up! I held off two of Cathy's pathetic-though-costly attempts at invasion. I was determined to show Huayna that I was not to be trifled with, power rating notwithstanding. I'm a human, and smarter than any AI leader! I'm not afraid of you punks! Do your worst, Inca boy!

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC15/ALC15_1836AD_25.jpg

Okay, maybe you didn't need to take me quite so literally there. It's just a figure of speech.

Marsin fell, of course, and Huayna razed it. So much for my gold--Frederick settled right on top of it a few turns later. Huayuna managed to take out most of my nearest city defenders with those annoying gunships, but of course, they couldn't actually capture any cities. And stupidly, he left his ground units lounging around on the coast. I was eventually able to bring down every chopper, and even wiped out his Marine, Artillery, and Infantry, though not without incurring heavy, heavy losses.

Meanwhile, in the northeast, Catherine had captured that Aztec city. Time for me to get a little revenge!

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC15/ALC15_1836AD_24.jpg

Besides, maybe if I took a Russian city, it would be one more reason why Catherine would consider a peace treaty. Or so I thought, but things didn't turn out that way.

Still, though the storm clouds were definitely gathering, there was the occasional ray of sunshine, even if it came from an unlikely source:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC15/ALC15_1836AD_26.jpg

So here I was, battered and bruised, but hanging on, determined to go down swinging. I had now fought off three AI invasions, and had survived! Heck, I'd even earned a Great General and had captured an enemy city. So I was still feeling somewhat hopeful.

But there's nothing like a bunch of Russian tanks to ruin your day.

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC15/ALC15_1836AD_28.jpg

Yes, gang, at that point, I retired. I know when I'm beat. I realized that during this whole round, despite all of my valiant efforts, I'd just been prolonging the inevitable.

The power graph tells the sorry tale:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC15/ALC15_1836AD_29.jpg

As does the pathetic final score:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC15/ALC15_1836AD_30.jpg

Still, there were some useful lessons to be learned from this game, I think.

First off, an isolated start makes it necessary to plan for barbs carefully. With no strategic resources in the capital's fat cross after BW and AH were researched, I probably should have researched Archery before founding any cities. I then should have spawned and positioned a lot more fog-busters. I probably also would have thereby gained a lot of good defensive units that just might have come in handy later on.

I think the pursuit of the Oracle may have been a mistake. I should have given up on wonder-chasing sooner rather than later and focused on rapid expansion and getting the CE up to full gear. Then again, if I'd been able to handle the barbs better so I wasn't so far behind in expansion, maybe it wouldn't have been out of the question.

I also think that I was way too sanguine about my military. Granted I was far behind in techs, but as my handling of the invasions showed, if I'd had enough units on hand from the start, I could have fended off Cathy's incursions even more easily.

All that being said, however, as I noted, the deck was definitely stacked against me in this game and very much in favour of the AI. (Two gold mines? Both on a river? Sheesh!) The lack of any strategic resources in the capital's fat cross was a very difficult handicap to overcome, especially for an isolated start where barbs are going to come out of the woodwork as soon as that 2nd city is founded.

I look forward to your assessments of how this game could have gone better. I won't be attempting Mehmed again in an ALC, or at least not for some time. I'll also be avoiding isolated starts. Though it was worthwhile to try one, it doesn't allow me to highlight the leaders' unique characteristics to their best advantage, which is the whole raison d'etre for the ALC series.

The save below if from the turn following my resignation. Next up is Persia and Cyrus, a leader I've been looking forward to trying on for size for quite some time. I need a little time off to drown my sorrows, though. Well, actually, to play a game as Rome and kick some butt. I think I'll customize the game and hope Cathy shows up right next door to me :mwaha:. So I probably won't start the Cyrus game until next week.

Meanwhile, tell me what you thought of this one!

Kudos for keeping up the good fight for as long as you did. I probably would have given up long before then. Isolated starts suck:cry:

Too bad...Tanks are really beyond the point where you can hope to hold out....

No isolated starts??? not even for Ragnar???

If you ever have an isolated start again I Think it's best to plan a heard especially against the barbs

Going for archers is a valid strategy but I think the critical mistake was the location of Edrine. It wasn't next to the copper so you had to wait for a pop before you built axemen *plus* it didn't have any food resource in the critical early period, since the rice was jungled. Two games in the spoiler thread were won, and in both Edrine was founded immediately adjacent to the copper. I still think between the copper and the cow was the place to go, although one win had Edrine on the other side. Basically you *have* to have a military resource *immediately* on founding the second city in these isolated starts.

Two things that I think hurt were chasing the Oracle and the nonwar footing on encountering Cathy. After the massive hit from barbs, with neither marble nor Industrious, the Oracle wasn't going to be the best use of resources. Consider that there really is no *worse* time to chase a Marble wonder. Likewise once you saw Cathy looked hostile military should have been your #1 goal. Techs should have been chosen with that in mind and you should have stayed in Slavery.

Anyway, kudos on an absolutely incredible run of wins. You're an outstanding player and fantastic writer. The ALC series is the best part of this site, both as education and as entertainment. You've also got a lot more spine than most (especially me!) I never would have stuck it out so long, or done so well against overwhelming military odds.

You held out bravely, I salut you.

I gotta admit that my tolerance of core cities being razed! by the AI is very, very low. Capturing sucks, but razing is definetly too ugly for my taste.

And Montezuma as friend and saviour, this game was crazy indeed!:D

Going for archers is a valid strategy but I think the critical mistake was the location of Edrine. It wasn't next to the copper so you had to wait for a pop before you built axemen *plus* it didn't have any food resource in the critical early period, since the rice was jungled. Two games in the spoiler thread were won, and in both Edrine was founded immediately adjacent to the copper. I still think between the copper and the cow was the place to go, although one win had Edrine on the other side. Basically you *have* to have a military resource *immediately* on founding the second city in these isolated starts.

i think back then we didn't realize just how immediate the need was. at the time, nobody reminded S that "oh by the way, settling your second city will be the trigger event for barbs to show up and harass your cities, since you are isolated". we knew that we were isolated and we knew they would come at some point, and he was researching mysticism before he settled coppertown, because he knew he'd need the border pop. he just didn't realize that settling the second city would be the start of what surely seemed to him like endless waves of barbarians, i think. i know i didn't realize it would be.

so it was definitely a learning experience in that way for me.

Delurking to say thank you for these games, and for playing this start out - isolated starts are difficult for me, and watching this helped me learn a great deal about what to do and what not to do. It's also given me a warning about Catherine, who is almost always my best friend in most games. I didn't know she was so prone to backstabbing.

You did a lot better on a lonely island than Dan Quayle ever would. I'm looking forward to the next one. Cyrus is a great warmonger. I once had a Persian maceman with Combat V and City Raider 3. Pwnage.

Good chutzpah in the end. Suggestions -
* yeah, a more meat and potatoes start with no Oracle.
* on an island one should milk a barb city for a level 4 unit. Alphabet -> Literature is a diversion, but you can treat Literature as key tech like Code of Laws for which you restrain your expansion until you can research it.
* dropping more science. In the 1280 save, about a third of your population was working non-resource production tiles instead of cottages. Settling lots of far-flung cities, needing to catch up to the AI, and not needing a big military all call for that. Alternatively you could have run 2 scientists in every city and switched each one to cottages after it popped a GS, but you weren't really doing that either.
* loading the capital with military police, population, and cottages. Because of Expansive and Organized and Hammams, Mehmed is good for Bureaucracy on an island. And in general a big cottage capital can pull a lot of weight.
* likewise, doing GP farming not in the capital, at least in this case. In 1280 for example, Bursa could have worked 2 scientists and a grass cottage instead of 2 plains forests and a plains mine, keeping a food surplus of 3 and freeing Istanbul for cottages.
* no SR after AI Astronomy and maybe after AI Optics would have been better for diplomatic safety. In a hard game I think one can only keep a steady religion if one has the diplomatic and military situation somewhat under control.

I'm not sure I agree that isolated starts prevent you from showing off leader unique characteristics. Even with Aggressive, for example, Cover Warriors can sort of stand up to barb Archers. Or with Janissaries, in a shadow game (one where unusually I did better than the ALC hive mind) going for space race I put off Chemistry and Rifling and spammed deterrent Janissaries long after they were not truly competitive. But they have a good weight on the power graph, in between Musketmen and Grenadiers, and I never got invaded. Etc.

The real stopper in this game is imho you neither had the size of cities nor the economy to research fast enough.

In my shadow game, i let my cities grow quickly with a SE start (+5 food per cities), working cottages only when i had more surplus and no room for specialist (not under caste system).

this act 2 fold :

- Size 10 cities put you much higher on the power graph even if they are defended by a single warrior, and act as a detterent to invasion,
- your research speed is correct, i was beaten to liberalism by only 2 turn, and did invest some turns in an unneeded tech (dont recall which one) before, so it was possible.

And i started from you 500 BC save, where things were already setted a way i did not like.

I also agree wih others on cities placement. Especially, the city on coast east of capital was huge on my game, and i founded it as soon as possible. Erdine location was good dotmap, except the need for border pop killed you .

That said, you did quite well because this start was really hard, but you could have fared a bit better by listening more to the collective hive mind.

In my opinion isolated starts are easier with philosophical leaders (with judicious lightbulbing you can get to optics very early), and this one was definitely tough in view of the lack of happy.

However, a couple of things that may have improved matters:

As others have said, settling city 2 adjacent to the copper for earlier axes.

Also, when isolated and under no pressure to grab the best city sites ASAP, the pyramids become a viable option. Representation would have done you the world of good in the first few thousand years of this game and there were enough hills in your capital to make them a viable option. The best way out of the hole the RNG had dumped you in was to run an SE initially and then transition to a pure CE with Emancipation getting your cottages up and running. Pyramids aren't essential for this by any means, but they definitely make it easier.

As for Cyrus in the next ALC, in my opinion he's the best warmonger in the game - imperialistic and charismatic just work so well together (cheap promotions and loads of GGs), and unless you have Shaka with bronze as a neighbour, nothing can stand up to Immortals. Just pray for horsies.

Well, all good things must come to an end and I guess this is the end of your winning streak. Damn tough start but still you played well. Better then I would have done and even fought on when your cities got razed. When that is happening I usually quit so good job hanging in there so long. The invasion stack by huayna was hilarious btw with your comments.

Looking forward to the Cyrus game. Imp and Cha is just great. Immortals ask for a quick rush even more then war chariots. Now go play the romans, kick Cathy's behind and get back in the saddle again.

Good effort, Sisiutil. What was the victory condition and who met it? I'm guessing Diplo, since I didn't see any parts being built.

So I probably won't start the Cyrus game until next week.

You might consider posting the pregame thread and/or the start sooner. I can certainly sympathize with your needing a break, but those early discussions take so long that it might be nice to get them out of the way ahead of time.

You did much better against Cathy's pillagers than I would have believed. It's distressing that at no point would she consider a cease fire. From what I gather she wasn't interested in anything you had.

Re: Border pops and isolated starts. I too think getting a military resource in the first ring is really important if you're not creative. On Epic speed a monument costs 45 hammers and takes 15 turns to pop the second ring. That's likely a minimum of 20 turns if you chop a forest and work a 3H tile (30 from forest, and forested plain hill for 5 turns). Without chopping or an improved resource it's more likely 25-30 turns for the first border pop, meanwhile the barbs are already on their way. It's easy to get caught up in the "perfect dotmap" dilemma; I think this situation was a good reminder that early cities have different priorities than later ones.

Re: Oracle. Marble is *rarely* a consideration when going for the Oracle - the problem is never production, it's research. There are too many techs you need to research to pop CoL in time to beat the AI. Even if you pop masonry from a hut (I have) Marble has to be in your cultural borders already (unlikely) and your better tiles need to be improved. Marble is generally on par with a mine, and takes 8 or 9 turns to build. I usually have other, better things for my workers to do.

I also understand the appeal of CoL in this game, or any game with an Organized leader. Founding a religion, unlocking cheap courthouses and Caste System (a good civic) is a powerful lure.
Do you really think it's such a bad idea to found your own religion on an isolated start? Is Monarchy enough when you have so few happiness resources?

Going for the Oracle is almost a fundamental part of my game - usually my decision path goes something like: Scout initial area, decide initial build order (scout/warrior/worker/boat), choose initial tech path (agriculture/Animal Husbandry/Bronze Working). Once those are taken care of and a military resource is spotted I make an almost automatic check to see if the Oracle is a reasonable goal. If it is, then a beeline is necessary at that point (even more true at Emperor).

In this game, I'd say it was - there were plenty of forests, few happiness resources, and the appeal for an Organized leader is even stronger. I'm curious, does anyone else thinks going for the Oracle was really a mistake in this situation?

Here's something I've wondered for a while: Is there a list of dates/ranges when each wonder is "typically" completed by the AI at various speeds/difficulty levels? That would be a useful resource to have.

Great game, and kudos to you for hanging in there.

A couple of thoughts.

1) I can understand you not wanting to do an isolated start again any time soon. However, they are part of the game -- they occur about 2% of the time on Continents maps, and about 15-20% of the time on Fractal. And it's very educational for the rest of us! So, maybe after a few games...?

2) I agree with the poster who said it's much easier with a Philo leader. With Caste System and thoughtful lightbulbing you can get to Optics before you've fallen too far behind.

3) Have you looked at the games in the spoiler thread? Thoughts or comments?


Waldo

Thanks for sticking it out as long as you did.

I'm not going to offer criticisms on the isolated start. I admit that when that happens, I'll often play a game three or four times. My brain can only be in isolation mode for so long, and I'll have to backtrack, once my mind wanders and I start playing as if I had neighbors.

Regarding the next round: I'm all in favor of customizing the game to ensure that Cathy shows up. Nothing wrong with a bit of sweet revenge. Plus, maybe you could vassalize her, if you know what I mean. :p

If you have the time and inclination, posting the pre-game thread would be terrific. But I'd totally understand if you needed a break.

1) I can understand you not wanting to do an isolated start again any time soon. However, they are part of the game -- they occur about 2% of the time on Continents maps, and about 15-20% of the time on Fractal. And it's very educational for the rest of us! So, maybe after a few games...?

they're part of the game, and everyone trying to improve their play has to learn how to play them sometime. but they're just a general fact of civ life, not a leader-specific issue. i agree with what S said earlier:

While it was educational to try out an isolated start, I will be avoiding them in future ALCs. The main reason is that they obviously make it difficult if not impossible to give me a chance to leverage all of the leader's unique characteristics. Case in point: I really doubt that Janissaries are going to see ANY action in this game. And the Hammams have not been as big a help as we all thought they would be. So I will be PMing the initial saves to Welnic from now on, who has graciously volunteered to do an initial check of them for me to ensure that the map is conducive to the goals of the ALC. I like fractal maps, but I almost always restart when they give me an isolated start.

cyrus is seriously fun. even i can wipe out entire continents surprisingly early in the game if i play cyrus. i'm mad at him this week for being a big sneak-attack bully and tech-runaway in a current game, but i'll try not to hold that against you. i hope you plan to have Welnic check to eliminate "no ponies in sight anywhere" starts, like somebody did in the kublai game.