Consider the following:

Building Research, Wealth or Culture does not consume overflow :hammers:
Building Research, Wealth or Culture does not consume chopped :hammers:
The overflow / chop pool can accumulate while building Research, Wealth or Culture


So what happens when you add these together by chopping while building :science:/:gold:/:culture:?

The ability to store production for an indefinite period of time to 'jumpstart' a future Wonder or important unit.

The actual process is simple:

Accumulate a large amount of overflow -- usually by building a small unit and/or whipping
Begin building Research, Wealth or Culture
Chop down every forest in sight around this city
Begin building Wonder when ready


{
In a recent game of mine, Marble was in an isolated area and not worth settling next to. Instead, I timed my 2nd city's 3rd Culture pop (thank you, Stonehenge) to encompass the Marble sometime before I learned Literature.

Throughout the entire trek to Literature, I built Research in my capital and chopped every forest going to it. When I got Literature & Marble, 98.66% of the hammers necessary for the GL were already stored in the queue.

The result is the attached screenshot.
}

The application of this strategy is not only dependent upon the availability of nearby forests but is also a one-time deal per city.

However, if used properly (such as in the GL Super Chop example), this can be a very strong ability.

Application #2 is to accumulate so much overflow that units pour out of the city in rapid succession to benefit from +XP civics more quickly and for a shorter period of time.


So, is this a strategic tool to keep in your belt, or just a simple exploit?

i think it is just a strategic tool. and the strategie is only very limited usefull (you loose the city production during the research time...)

but all the occ-players (like me) say thank you for remembering us.

not an exploit but usefull sometimes.

I agree with civtrader. I do think that this feature, even being a powerful one, requires a somehow diffult to acheive control of the situation ( all the chops must go to the same city, sometimes this can be hard ), so does not pass the exploit border.

P.S. How about a whip something-> (( research/wealth/culture) banking overflow)->....-> wonder tactic?

Stockpiling timber for a rapid wonder build is no less realistic than having 8 worker units chop 8 forests simultaneously and attaining the same effect, so I don't think this strategy damages the simulation. Nor do I think it unbalances things strategically, since you're stockpiling limited resources, and the same instant-wonder effect can be attained by using a Great Engineer.

chopping a forest with 8 workers is wasteful.

It is a borderline exploit however since you accumulate the disadvantage of only building research,wealth,culture during the time , its not imbalanced

It's another good idea, like the last one. Thanks for these.

While it may be useful in extreme circumstances, there are some drawbacks. Namely, the hammers you get from chopping while you are "building" Research, do not get Org Religion bonuses, or also, in the case of Wonders, do not get the production bonuses of having marble hooked or Industrious trait. In effect, you have wasted a bunch of hammers that those trees could have given you if you were making a building, or a wonder (assuming Ind trait or resource hooked, even worse).

I guess if the wonder is super important to you, and you feel that you will miss it if you wait for the marble bonus hammers, then it may be worth it. Personally I just hate losing hammers; to the point I often attempt to hold off on chopping en masse until Mathematics.

It does not work like that anymore. It was so in unpatched vanilla. Now it just adds all chop hammers + production + overflow and the turn which structure is is being built the resource or trait discount comes into play. For example if you chop all those forests without marble for great library , then build great library the turn you get marble connected , you will get the double production applied to all those hammers. works best if you wait till you get buearcracy+ resource+ industrious+organized relegion+forge and unload all the hammers. You will get 50+100+50+25+25= 250% bonus hammers then. 30 hammers of forest will give you 105 hammers for your wonder :eek: . Works best with spiritual .

It does not work like that anymore. It was so in unpatched vanilla. Now it just adds all chop hammers + production + overflow and the turn which structure is is being built the resource or trait discount comes into play. For example if you chop all those forests without marble for great library , then build great library the turn you get marble connected , you will get the double production applied to all those hammers. works best if you wait till you get buearcracy+ resource+ industrious+organized relegion+forge and unload all the hammers. You will get 50+100+50+25+25= 250% bonus hammers then. 30 hammers of forest will give you 105 hammers for your wonder :eek: . Works best with spiritual .


Really? Wow. I may have to try this then. I have no idea why they changed the mechanics from vanilla, but either way it is good to know. Thanks for the info.

Something pretty similar was done by pre-chopping forests: move to forest tile, road, chop until one turn from completion, next forest. Then, when you build the wonder just move along the road and have one instant 30 hammer boost per worker per turn. This strategy also lets you build other things than research/money/culture in the meantime but has the "defect" that you have to road the tile... well, unless you're Indian, of course. :D And even then, hills have to be roaded first, but you're gonna mine/windmill hills anyway. So make sure you road tiles on which you're going to build improvements first.

I wouldn't call yours an exploit. It was clearly designed to bank hammers when building research/money/culture, how many hammers doesn't matter.

Working out if this is an exploit means second guessing the intent of the designer. It might be worth checking with the moderators if this is a permissible trick in gotm.

I've tried something along those lines in this thread. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=193651)

2 things.
- It is an exploit (at least the way I did it). But it's hard work for a somewhat small reward IMHO. It may be something to use in a tight space race though (see below a similar exploit).
- Prechopping is already somewhat exploitive, and is commonly seen as a strategy. So real chopping but saved through building research shouldn't be seen as more exploitive. In fact, prechopping is more of an exploit, since you can start chopping before mathematics, and wait till maths are in to cut that last tree and get full reward.

Similar exploit, usable in a tight space race :
We all know that space race is more about teching than about building.
But you can start building things before the tech is in :) this way (2 level of exploit possible) :
Let's say the tech necessary (or apollo program, if you go for an internet suicide rush before apollo) is 8 turns away :
turn 1 : assign a building. You need something you don't finish in 1 turn. SO either MM your production city to have at least 1 hammer less than necessary or take a large build.
turn 2 : start another building (can be units, but beware of decaying hammers after 10 turns). Same thing = don't finish it.
turn 3: start another building. Same thing = don't finish it.
turn 4: start another building. Same thing = don't finish it.
Turn 5: finish the smallest of those buildings. (*)
turn 6 : finish the second smallest (*)
turn 7 : finish the third (*)
turn 8 : finish the fourth (*)
turn 9, you can start the spaceship part with 4 accumulated overflows.

(*) second level of exploitive building is to $ rush everything even if you would finish the building anyways. This way you apply 5 turns of production in the first turn of spaceship part building.
If you have enough cities and enough money (not a problem, some buildings are cheap and merchants are really handy in the late game) you can really give yourself a big boost in the final push.

My example is only about 8 turns, but you can start a lot earlier in some cities building up your city in the same time.
Here is a list of things you don't necessarily need to finish long before starting the part :
- forge (who needs the production bonus if you $ rush?)
- factory (who needs the production bonus if you $ rush?)
- laboratory (who needs the science bonus in a production city)
- power plant (beware, plants requires a factory so it's only good if you already have the factory;))
- supermarket/grocer/aqueduct (who needs the health before the factory/plant is built?)
- ....
With those buildings, you prepare your spaceship builder city AND you offer yourself a nice headstart AND if you manage it well, you get production bonus for the overflows.

This is somewhat exploitive too, isn't it?

chopping a forest with 8 workers is wasteful.

Which is why you chop 8 forests with 8 workers

Cabert rushing money takes into account production multipliers. Buying a wonder in an ironworks city would be around half that of an ordinary city. Similarly if you want to develop a city by cash-rushing buy forge first this reduces cost of following building

Which is why you chop 8 forests with 8 workers

so you have 64 workers total? ;) :lol:

Cabert rushing money takes into account production multipliers. Buying a wonder in an ironworks city would be around half that of an ordinary city. Similarly if you want to develop a city by cash-rushing buy forge first this reduces cost of following building
not in warlords AFAIK

I would call this an exploit. While there is a tradeoff that comes from producing only :science:/:culture:/:gold:, the ability to rush a wonder without using any of the current "rush" methods (GE, slavery, US) has to be an unintended effect.

The question then becomes, would making overflow apply to :science:/:culture:/:gold: fix the issue, or would it create a new exploit?

BTW, I also consider pre-chopping forests to be an exploit. However, it is one that is much more difficult to fix.

It is an exploit. It might of might not be useful, but it is defenetivaly an exploit.
The intention the game designers had behind chopping was to give a small boost of production to a local city. Not to accumulate production in order to get a free wonder. I remember that just after/before the release of Civ4, Soren said that they had tried to remove all micromanagement and stop people using overflow to get free wonders.

I've tried something along those lines in this thread. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=193651)

I'm guessing this was fixed in a patch or something, because ...

Overflow cannot exceed HPT. The only way to accumulate overflow greater than your production potential is by chopping or temporarily increasing your production by assigning excessive priests/engineers and miners.

I'm guessing this was fixed in a patch or something, because ...

Overflow cannot exceed HPT. The only way to accumulate overflow greater than your production potential is by chopping or temporarily increasing your production by assigning excessive priests/engineers and miners.

really?
My computer didn't seem to notice this, and I've patched as far as possible.

IMHO you didn't test before stating this, because I've had 81 hammers overflow + forge bonus going to the great library in a size 4 city.
I don't believe my size 4 city had 81 hpt ;).

Here is a very easy thing to test if your statement is true or not :
- pure commerce city (=1 hpt)
- start a library
- after 2 or 3 turns of work, whip it
- check the overflow. if it's only 1 hammer, then you're right and I'll stop posting altogether ;)

IMHO you didn't test before stating this, because I've had 81 hammers overflow + forge bonus going to the great library in a size 4 city.
I don't believe my size 4 city had 81 hpt ;).

Actually, I did.

Click me!!! (http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=150915&d=1175806675)

That was on a real game (the units I had been building moved to the rally point in case you're wondering why they're not in the city).

I also did a World Builder test in which I built a base 145 :hammers: city with every +:hammers: building imaginable and 10k gold to rush / chop / whip to test this.

Actually, I did.

Click me!!! (http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=150915&d=1175806675)

that's not a hpt issue, it's linked to what you build.
you didn't read my exploitive explanation well enough :p .
You won't get more overflow than the price of what you're building.
That's why you should build the less expensive stuff first.

+ you should use stuff you don't finish in 1 turn!

I'd say I'm 94.729% sure about this one.

that's not a hpt issue, it's linked to what you build.
you didn't read my exploitive explanation well enough :p .
You won't get more overflow than the price of what you're building.
That's why you should build the less expensive stuff first.

+ you should use stuff you don't finish in 1 turn!

Explorers cost 40 :hammers:. My overflow was 66 :hammers:. 66 > 40. (I was getting more overflow than the price of what I was building.)

You could be right, though ... I'm probably skipping a step somewhere. :crazyeye:

I also did a World Builder test in which I built a base 145 :hammers: city with every +:hammers: building imaginable and 10k gold to rush / chop / whip to test this.

I guess I need to re-run that test when I get home tonight (prolly 2200 CST [GMT -6.00]), because when I did it last night, I tried every imaginable avenue to get more overflow than my HPT and could only do it with chopping (which technically isn't 'overflow').

I was rushing wonders, units, buildings ... all kinds of stuff ... whipping them, chopping them, buying them. I never got it over my HPT.

Could you run this through your World Builder and post a screenie?

Explorers cost 40 :hammers:. My overflow was 66 :hammers:. 66 > 40. (I was getting more overflow than the price of what I was building.)
epic speed? HE effect?
hatd to tell.
What I can tell you is overflow has nothing to do with hpt

not in warlords AFAIK

Are you sure, slavery which uses same mechanics as buying gets forge ,organized relegion bonuses. So I'm pretty sure it must be for cashg-rushing as well

Are you sure, slavery which uses same mechanics as buying gets forge ,organized relegion bonuses. So I'm pretty sure it must be for cashg-rushing as well
slavery doesn't use the same mechanics anymore, and yes slavery gets forge, OrgRel... bonus.
I'll check again, but I'm pretty sure you don't get the production bonuses for $rushing in warlords.

Cash rushing definitely does not get any benefit from production bonusses. Under US it costs a straight 3 gold per hammer to complete a building or unit that has already had at least one turn of production invested. That cost is increased to 6 gold per hammer for wonders and projects (IIRC but do check that). If a new building or unit does not have any production invested then the cost is increased (by +50% IIRC or maybe doubled). The Kremlin reduces the cost of rush buying by 50% so the basic cost is then 2 gold per hammer.

Slavery of course does get production bonusses from forges etc.

I guess I need to re-run that test when I get home tonight.

I stand corrected.

I guess overflow from production can't exceed HPT. And, gold pays only for the remainder of what you'll need to finish the build. This is only possible by whipping and can be compounded by chain-whipping.

As far as :gold:-rushing and :hammers:% bonuses, it doesn't get them. Whip- and chop-rushing does, though. (I ran that through the World Builder, too.)

I stand corrected.

I guess overflow from production can't exceed HPT. And, gold pays only for the remainder of what you'll need to finish the build. This is only possible by whipping and can be compounded by chain-whipping.

As far as :gold:-rushing and :hammers:% bonuses, it doesn't get them. Whip- and chop-rushing does, though. (I ran that through the World Builder, too.)

try it this EXACT way:
turn 1 : start building something that needs more than 1 turn
turn 2 : start building something else tat needs more than 1 turn
turn 3: $rsh item 2
turn 4 : $ rush item 1
turn 5 : whatever you start you will have exactly 2 turns worth of production as overflow (provided item 1 costs more than 2 turns of production)

Previous build no longer limits overflow. Base production has never done so. There is no limit. It will carry over through multiple builds. Chop 6 forests on the same turn in a 1 hpt city, and watch warriors pop every turn for awhile.

Cash rushing definitely does not get any benefit from production bonusses. Under US it costs a straight 3 gold per hammer to complete a building or unit that has already had at least one turn of production invested. That cost is increased to 6 gold per hammer for wonders and projects (IIRC but do check that). If a new building or unit does not have any production invested then the cost is increased (by +50% IIRC or maybe doubled). The Kremlin reduces the cost of rush buying by 50% so the basic cost is then 2 gold per hammer.

Slavery of course does get production bonusses from forges etc.

Silently goes back and reloads to the turn democracy is researched and not cash rush forges this time :blush: .

Cabert is right. And OTAKUjbski is right. The hammer overflow is limited by the maximum out of total hammers needed for the previous build and Hammer Per Turn. Any excess beyond that is converted to gold at a 1 gold for 1 hammer rate. Gold multipliers do not come into play (this works just like wealth).

As an example here is a marathon barracks (150 hammers)getting overkill chopped out pre-maths:

Before:

http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t218/CivVale/Civ4ScreenShot0000.jpg

Yes that is a forest in the coast. What can I say I'm lazy about world buildering this type of stuff up.

And after:

http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t218/CivVale/Civ4ScreenShot0001.jpg

ZOMG, I'm rich!

Now with a ridiculous hammer per turn on a 80 hammer marathon explorer before:

http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t218/CivVale/Civ4ScreenShot0000-1.jpg

And notice the overflow after:

http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t218/CivVale/Civ4ScreenShot0003.jpg

I have shots with markets and stuff inside the city to show that the commerce multipliers don't change how the wealth conversion happens but I'm just hoping you guys will take my word for it.

BTW, this is with warlords 2.08. Is there a new patch that changes this Ecofarm?

Now THIS feels like an exploit ...

... I think I'm more :confused: than ever, lol.

This means that chopping can be used as a cash source before currency.... :eek: . That can be very useful :D .

Now THIS feels like an exploit ...

Well, I did abuse the well known ctrl-w exploit to set these up.

I'm more :confused: than ever

It isn't too complicated. From the little experiment I did I think this is how overflow is handled:

1. The game figures out which is higher, the total hammers produced per turn by the city or the cost of the previous build. Lets call that max_overflow
2. If the amount left over from the previous build is more than the max_overflow, the overflow you get is max_overflow and you get the difference in gold. Otherwise you just get the entire amount as overflow.
3. Profit

This means that chopping can be used as a cash source before currency....

As can whipping. Whipping warriors doesn't seem nearly as wasteful as it did before I found this out this morning.

Step 1. Build a warrior to within 1 turn of completion
Step 2. Whip it and move it down in the queue until your math powered forest is chopped
Step 3. When the forest comes in, move the warrior back up:

http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t218/CivVale/Civ4ScreenShot0000-2.jpg

http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t218/CivVale/Civ4ScreenShot0001-1.jpg

Step 4. Profit:

http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t218/CivVale/Civ4ScreenShot0002.jpg

That money can fund a decent amount of deficit research. I dunno how abusable this is but I'm willing to try :lol:

:lol: sick!

I'm seeing a new economy type :lol: . How about Overflow economy?

Well keep in mind this was on marathon so 150 gold isn't all that great. Don't forget to scale everything back to allow for game speed. But this does seem like a way to possibly keep a REXed empire afloat while its economy catches up.

You could use Caberts repeated overflow trick with whipping instead of buy rushing to add to this and chop multiple forests simultaneously to turn more of the forest hammers into gold than hammers.

I'm seeing a new economy type :lol: . How about Overflow economy?

I dont think you could base your entire economy around this, but you could definitely use it to subsidize a 100% research rate with a CE

OSC - Overflow Subsidy City

Cabert is right. And OTAKUjbski is right. The hammer overflow is limited by the maximum out of total hammers needed for the previous build and Hammer Per Turn. Any excess beyond that is converted to gold at a 1 gold for 1 hammer rate. Gold multipliers do not come into play (this works just like wealth).

Yeah, so I was partially wrong about the exact mechanic here. Production bonuses have an impact on max overflow. I described it in my most recent post in this thread: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=5351079#post5351079