Well, the difference to CE is easy:

Don´t build cottages, farm everything (except early capital)...

...

OK, the difference to SE is also easy:

Don´t run specialist (except GS farm)...

...

But how exactly works and FE and where does the research come from?

To answer those questions, I have attached the next screen, where a typical FE city-screen is shown:

151314


What do we see:

We have a size 9 city which has an output of about 50 beakers at 100% research at around 1000 AD.

When you have expanded well and FE is used properly, you will have about 10 -15 of those cities around that time, so your research will be at around 500+ beakers WITHOUT your science city AND your capital (that´s why a tech like assembly line takes only 12 turns to research that early:D)

...

How can this be done?

To analyze this a little closer, we have another look at the city-screen above:

Buildings:

Theatre - first building, to expand city borders
Granary - to speed growth
Lighthouse - to speed growth
Harbour - to increase trade
Courthouse - to reduce costs

I usually build these buildings in this order. More buildings aren´t needed (if it´s a non costal city, you need a market)

Why this buildings:

We want to grow... ...not to be big, but to use the whip to get our buildings faster.

We will whip every single building a city can build, as long as we aren´t forced via emancipation to leave slavery. Economy buildings first, science next...

We only have to take care of the city remaining size 6+, to bring in enough trade via trade routes (+harbour and/or market)

...

There we are

...

TRADE-ROUTES

...

I usually run herrule (NOT rep), nationalism, slavery, free market and free religion.

Now you only have to bribe one of the other AI´s early to switch to free market and your research will go crasy:goodjob:

...

BEFORE reaching free market, I usually run bureau and let my capital do the research (I build 3-5 cottages & academy... ...this will do normally). Another city gets the national epic (and, if lucky, the Great Library) and under pacifism I try to get as many GS as possible.

Around the time when lightbulbing and capital-research start loosing their effects (normally when lib is in), the other cities take over and I switch to nationalism (cheap and baracks help keeping the cities happy)

...

VERY IMPORTANT:

You must go heavy into politics to really be able to work this strat. Early warmongering and playing agressiv normally doesn´t go well with that, so you have to take care which neighbours you can attack (better to prepare every attack via diplo or missionaries)

...

Back that strat up with one science city and 1 (or 2) production cities and you will get amazing results

...

When everything important is build and all city tiles are worked (=most cities are fully grown), only then your cities will start hiring specialists. This is the time, when you can switch to rep.

um you can have traderoutes and still run stuff like specialists and cottages... it also require the AI to have open borders with you AND not run merkantilism which is not allways possible. In the given screenshot i dont see why you wouldnt whip in either a library or the market it is currently building to be able to run some specialists instead of those coast titles...

@ oyzar:

You can always combine any strat in civ4 (what is a good thing)

...

I haven´t assigned specialist in the screen above, because I want to whip the market AND have a city AFTER the whip of 6+ (or trade-routes will break down completely because city is too small), so I have to grow the city to 10, only then I can whip (market = 4 pop)

Running any specialist will greatly slow growing, so I normaly don´t assign specialist unitill all buildings I want are whipped (to build infrastructure at max. speed). Only when and all workable tiles are worked I assign specialists (city size & infrastructure dederminates revenue of trade routes. That´s why you need at least a city size 6+ harbour and/or market to start foreing trade toutes coming in)

Before merk, trade revenue is to small to be important. When merk is discovered (and unsually used) priorize free market in your research and trade/give it away. Most civs cautious or better will adopt free market (after they have discovered astro for oversea trade) when you add it in a tech deal so converting them isn´t that difficult in most circumstances

Very impressive to be researching Assembly Line in 1150 AD. I am also a strong advocate of high food economies although I can't claim to do it as well as you have here :blush:

I note that most of your commerce in this city is from trade, four routes giving 9, 9, 8 and 8 = 34 commerce. That takes some doing in most games. And it is very hard to get enough good foreign routes for 10 cities (needs 40 routes) let alone 15 (needs 60). So how do you manage to stay friendly enough to have open borders with so many other civs? Free religion stops religion being a problem but it doesn't make them like you. You must be a diplomatic wizard :p

You have built a theatre for extra culture. I would usually build a library instead for slightly less culture (this city doesn't seem to need much culture anyway) and obviously another +25% research (= 11 beakers ) plus the ability to run 2 scientists (I understand the GPPs are probably worthless here) as a way to slow growth since you have so much food here (+12 food / turn gives 1 pop every 1 or 2 turns) and whipping unhappiness can grow too high. Even without Representation 3 beakers for 2 food is better than nothing.

Also it is interesting to note that a library gives a better return than a courthouse with the high commerce this city has now. I value +11 beakers more than saving 4.9 gold so I would build a library before a courthouse.

How are you planning to win this game? I note that you have Nationhood running and HR. Are you planning to draft either Rifles (before Assembly line is researched) or Infantry afterwards, or maybe a mixture. I note also that your market looks like it will give + 4 :happiness:. If you are planning to draft I presume you'll build a barracks , although that will not make much difference unless you run theocracy... I guess Infantry in 1250 AD don't really need promotions :D

Any chance of you posting the savegame? I'm interested in looking at other parts of the economy.

@ UncleJJ:

Some good points you have brought up here:

Using a lib & markets combo instead of theatre and courthouse may even be the better combo (I assume your numbers are right)

Concerning trade-route revenue:
When building enough infra in a big town, you will get trade routes up to around 15 each

Politics:
Look for your trading partners... ...when they start to fight each other for example bribe them to peace again ASAP when you can afford it (or you will get too many neg. modifiers because both will ask to join the war when you don´t stop it early)

...

About this game:

It´s a deity game I´m just playing... ...goal is to win domintion... ...but I will probably fail, because I ended up on a conti with zulu, mongolia and england. The other conti has about the same size and there are india, mali and celts (yup, the good old techclub again). Thanks to an uber start, early techtrading, almost all wonders and several golden ages India has run off completely and has x techs on me...


Warfare:

I have already done 3 wars with cavalry & trebs (prebuild chariots and knights, fist war starting around 700 AD) which I have all won without too many problems (always bribe an ally to attack first, join in about 3-5 turns later)... ...next moves will be to take over my conti completely (about 55% of land).

I initally planned to only destroy england completely and to vassalize the others, but since India has run off that far, I reconsidered and will now try to take my conti completely (need all land)

Therefore one more war I plan to do with cav (shaka, he is extremely backwards). Last war I plan to do with cav/gren/rifles, because mongolia has rifles already (but only 5 cities left).

Globe will be finished soon and only then I will start to draft (no drafting except for emergency defence so far).

Basicly, my only hope now is, that I manage to get to artillery fast enough and manage to take enough off Brenus cities after my conti is clear to get to domination before Ashoka leaves for the stars...


Actual save
151322

interesting game. I may have to give this strategy a shot some time. I've recently tried to gear my cities more towards trade based economies (prioritizing harbor etc.) but this really only works on the higher difficulties. Stronger AI = bigger cities = massive trade routes. I don't think this economy would be sustainable at a lower level (also has to do with the massive gold that you can rake in from the AI during tech trades on the higher levels too). It's sort of like how the pure SE doesn't work so well on the lower levels because your economy will run dry as the AI won't have hundreds of gold to give to you :lol:

I love the 175AD "You have discovered liberalism". I'm surprised you didn't take astronomy earlier to establish oversea trade routes - did you not have optics yet? And how have you not hit WFYABTA yet?

:gold:

We only have to take care of the city remaining size 6+, to bring in enough trade via trade routes (+harbour and/or market)



Question: How does a market help you? Especially in the screenshot you have here. A market gives you +25% :gold:. NOT commerce :commerce: (which can be converted to science). Since you are getting no gold from this city (running 100% science), a market does nothing for you. A library would be a MUCh better build, sice it would give you +25% :science:.

Also, you made no mention of the various wonders that increase trade routes. These would make an excellent addition to your article.

@ shyuhe:

concerning WFYABTA:

haven´t traded much... ...I normally don´t trade that much, because in early-game, not much trade is needed:

trades worth to take early-game (in order (more or less)):
iron working, math, currency, monarch, callendar, metal casting, compass

In this game, because I was stuck with the warmongers on my conti I think I even selfresearched callendar & compass (would have hit the magic lib around 1 AD, but somehow it never works off in the end...)

Better to spare most trades for mid-game (that´s where you normally start to fall behind):

trades worth taking in mid-game:
feudalism, guilds, machinery, banking, economics, replacable parts, rifling, constitution + what you can get before you run out of trading techs and hitting the WFYABTA

Key in keeping up with tech is beelining and trading (backfilling older techs)

...

@ lib freebee:

hadn´t researched optics and didn´t dare to delay lib (Ghandi sailed over to me around 1 AD and already had education)... ...I didn´t trade for optics with Ghandi, because I didn´t know at that point the relations on the other conti... ...better delay trading with them, untill you know them all (worst enemy penalty...)

@ scottin:

There are several elements important to consider when talking about trade routes:

1. You have to enable foreign trade routes (via bringing other AI´s to adopt free market for example)

2. You have to make your cities attractive to actually GET foreign trade routes in... ...here you need harbours and/or markets (I don´t know why, but only after you build harbours in your costal cities and markets in inland cities, foreign trade routes will appear... ...perhaps these buildings make your cities attractive for other civs???)

3. What values do your trade-routes have:
This depends on city size and I think certain infrastructure buildings (bigger city and more infrastructure buildings = higher base trade-routes)

4. How is science calculated:
Money from trade routes gets summed up with money generated from the city (all buildings and bonusses are applied). The total is transformed into science when the slider is at 100% science, so a market bonus IS transformed into science

5. Wonders:
They help, but I rarely build any (on higher levels it´s almost impossible), so I have no numbers and experience concerning that. Feel free to add your experience and opinion concerning wonders

...

Summary:
I build markets because they serve two purposes:

Making my city more attractive to actually GET a foreign trade route in AND increasing the revenue... ...a lib only increases the revenue in my experience.

...

But some points brought up by UncleJJ are valid:

"You have built a theatre for extra culture. I would usually build a library instead for slightly less culture (this city doesn't seem to need much culture anyway) and obviously another +25% research (= 11 beakers ) plus the ability to run 2 scientists (I understand the GPPs are probably worthless here) as a way to slow growth since you have so much food here (+12 food / turn gives 1 pop every 1 or 2 turns) and whipping unhappiness can grow too high. Even without Representation 3 beakers for 2 food is better than nothing.

Also it is interesting to note that a library gives a better return than a courthouse with the high commerce this city has now. I value +11 beakers more than saving 4.9 gold so I would build a library before a courthouse."

...

So it might be even better to build lib+market instead of theatre+courthouse (but timeline and construction costs have to be considered as well)

Summary:
I build markets because they serve two purposes:

Making my city more attractive to actually GET a foreign trade route in AND increasing the revenue... ...a lib only increases the revenue in my experience.

If I'm not mistaken, markets don't affect trade routes directly. Researching Currency gives all your cities an additional trade route. Currency is also the tech that allows you to construct markets.

The +25%:gold: bonus that markets give do not (directly) affect research. The bonus is only applied to gold that goes into the treasury. If a city is generating 100 commerce and you're running science at 80% and culture at 0%, then the market will only give you 5 gold per turn (25% of 20). Since you're running science at 100%, that market won't give you any gold at all without something like a religious shrine or merchant specialists.

@ DigitalBoy:

You are right, I just checked... ...no bonus in research from markets

...

To correct some misunderstandings:

Markest don´t increase the NUMBER of trade routes... ...what I meant is this:

Examplecity a with 4 traderoutes, all INTERNAL:
Revenue is like 1+1+1+1 = 4

Examplecity b with 4 traderoutes, all EXTERNAL:
Revenue is like 6+6+6+6 = 24

Markets help in actually GETTING foreign civs start a trade-route in a certain city... ...small cities with no markets and/or harbours will always be like Examplecity a, even when the whole world is running free market (I don´t know why this is so, I even don´t know if it is really true, but this is my experience and the reason I build markets (25% bonus isn´t much compared to getting foreing trade routes in)...)

harbors add +50% to the value of the trade route (the formula is a little more complicated than that) but I don't think markets affect trade route value. I think they only affect gold commerce after the slider% has been applied.

He's not saying that markets affect the value of the trade routes in the same way that harbors do. He is saying that if you have an inland city where you can't put a harbor then getting a market is the difference that gets you foreign trades routes, which are worth way more.

Markets do give +25% to any gold a city produces and that is one good reason to build them. But ...

In a food economy another important thing markets give is happiness. Incidently, I was wrong earlier to assume they would give Snaaty +4 it is only +3 right now ... until he gets the whale resource. And lo and behold, he has a whale inside his cultural borders near Dusseldorf. I recommend he builds a work boat there next and then the market. That will mean he gets +4 happiness from a market which will let him grow his important cities that much larger and work more tiles.

He's not saying that markets affect the value of the trade routes in the same way that harbors do. He is saying that if you have an inland city where you can't put a harbor then getting a market is the difference that gets you foreign trades routes, which are worth way more.

I don't understand how the market gets you foreign trade routes... Isn't the city going to have however many trade routes as your tech/civic combination allows? (assuming that you haven't exhausted the supply of available trade routes with cities).

@ Welnic:

Yes, this is exactly what I ment (but was quite obviously to dumb to describe:blush:)

BTW, just clicked your sig... ...feel free to take the save from some posts up in this thread and finish the game for me via domination please... ...I promise to pay you later

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@ UncleJJ:

I have a whale around somewhere???... ...must have completely overlooked/forgotten that... ...when I play on, I will try to remember to send a workboat there

...

@ shyuhe:

No there is more to it... ...if you look at my save for example, you will see that my military city and my globe city both haven´t any foreign trade routes, although they are bigger then some other cities that do have... ...I don´t know any exact formula/numbers (=no idea why), but when you build a harbour/market, the trade routes of this city usually jump to external next couple of turns (5 or so...)

The overall number of trader routes stayes the same of course per city (4 internal trade routes change to 4 external trade routes for example, but the revenue may jump up from 4x1 to 4x6or7)

ioooo ok. I'm an idiot. Now I understand what you're saying. City A has no market and City B has a market - City B will produce more commerce out of the trade routes so the better routes will get assigned to B. Ok, makes sense now.

I had a look at the 1140 AD save you posted and have a lot of comments and questions. :eek:

You have a lot of techs on Shaka and Kublai and they are at war with each other and neither is popular with the other continent. So both are ripe fruit ready for picking. The question is how it should be done. Since you have a food economy the obvious solution seems to be based on Drafting, either rifles or infantry.

Research: After finishing Steam Power in 1150 you selected Assembly Line. I think that Biology might be a better choice unless you plan to trade with Mansa or Asoka for it somehow but giving them Assembly line could make things tougher for you. Biology just goes so well with a FE and is the ultimate productivity tech :D It should have been your priority after getting Scientific Method unless you had something very strange happening then.

Scientific Method, Monastries, Missionaries and Free Religion: It is unfortunate that you gained SM before building any monastries. I like to have at least one monastry for each religion in my empire. Introducing a religion into a city under FR gives +1 happiness and +1 culture, both of which can be good in a newly conquered city, saving the need to build theatres to expand the fat cross. The hammers for the missionary kick-start the new town come from another city and speed up its path to becoming useful. Anyway it is too late now so let's move on ;)

Drafting: You are running Nationhood and that is a good civic just for the +2 happiness in war ... but only 8 out of 21 cities have barracks :( Why are you running this civic and not making good use of it in cities that have been owned a long time ? I approve of Globe Theatre as a drafting engine, although it is much more powerful drafting rifles rather than infantry, since it takes 2 turns at least to regrow the pop for infantry while rifles can be pumped out every turn if the food supply is high enough. This is another reason to research Biology before Assembly Line... pump out a few cheap rifles before infantry are the draftees.

But to amass a big army fast you could use other cities to draft some troops if the happiness is high enough. You have markets (which with the whale near Dusseldorf give +4 happiness), and barracks to give good happiness for several drafts per city. And you can draft a rifleman once every 10 turns anyway. Then there is the culture slider which you can use to squeeze a few more out. Each 10% culture costs 45 gold at present so that should be the last option if possible.

London has an impressive haul of wonders, Hanging Gardens, Angkor Wat and Uni of Sangkore. How are you planning to use those? Fredrick is philosophical and the next GP only costs 900 GPPs. I guess London could make at least 1 GP if some specialists were worked.

ioooo ok. I'm an idiot. Now I understand what you're saying. City A has no market and City B has a market - City B will produce more commerce out of the trade routes so the better routes will get assigned to B. Ok, makes sense now.

Not to me, it doesn't.

From what I can tell, when the trade routes are calculated ( CvPlayer::updateTradeRoutes ), your cities are ordered based on which have the best trade route multipliers (based on population, buildings, and connection to your own capital - CvCity::totalTradeModifier ), then each of those cities are assigned the most profitable trade routes available (CvCity::updateTradeRoutes)

Trade route multipliers are determined by the presence of buildings which have interesting iTradeRouteModifier values in CIV4BuildingInfos.xml

But a market isn't one of those buildings - so it shouldn't make any difference. There's nothing I see in the code that suggests that the city's efficience in translating commerce to something useful plays any role at all in determining trade routes.

Maybe somebody will put together an experiment to demonstrate otherwise.

What the...? I have to try this one myself, I can't believe you're researching Assembly Line in 1150AD. Way to go! :goodjob:

This might be the best thread I've ever seen on this site!

Seriously, this is incredibly interesting. I mean, it's so simple on the surface, but it's also totally new (to me anyway.)

Questions I have are about the early game. It seems like this would take a while to get off the ground. Usually when I can first build Harbors my trade routes aren't lucrative enough for them to make much difference.

So the goal is to get new cities to 6+ as soon as possible? Does the trade route revenue jump up at that point?

I'm sure I have more questions, but I will have to try this in a game soon. The fact that it works on deity shows that it's viable. As someone said, I think this works better on higher levels because the foreign cities are bigger.

But that's what's so great about it - you are feeding off the AI cities for your research! How great to have a choice between CE/SE/FE depending on your land and traits. (Though I might call this one something else, like a trade route economy.)

Anyway I really like the idea of focusing on trade routes. Thanks so much for the info about how Markets make a city more attractive, and all of that!

Trade route multipliers are determined by the presence of buildings which have interesting iTradeRouteModifier values in CIV4BuildingInfos.xml

But a market isn't one of those buildings

Which buildings do modify it in that way?

Hmm let's say markets do affect trade routes assignation( which i'm not sure about) . Lets say you have 10 ciies and 30 tradable rival cities. And free market. So it should be 3 foreign trade routes per city, with capital , Temple of artemeis,harbor , big cities getting most lucrative trade routes. If market doesn't multiply trade route value at the most it will result in a jump of trade routes between your cities.
Or are you saying that even when there are foreign cities which have no assigned trade routes in your empire suddenly get linked to your cities when you build market. Or a city is not eligible for very high lucrative trades like with a size 30 city till the city meets some requirements :confused: .

I will check your save world edit out all markets and then edit in all markets to see whether I can make sny sense of it.

Btw; why are you running 2f,2c coastal squares instead o some specialist , mine or if you wanted to have 2food squares you could windmill your grassland hills and run 2f,2s,1g squares . And doesn't Ai also run trade route economy . It has even bigger cities than you. And bigger multipliers.

Edit: I am not critical of this. I don't understand how this worked out and want to learn.

A few more thoughts on the situation in 1140 AD, this time long term considerations.

Asoka is the tech leader and Mansa is helping him by providing technical support and trading. They are busom buddies so no hope of getting one to spoil the others chances. The power graph is amusing... you are about 20% of Asoka's power :lol:

But all is not lost. You have 21 cities now and Shaka and Kublai have a lot more that can be yours either directly or as vassals. You need to tool up for Total war and that means Fascism for Police State and Mt Rushmore. Then you can draft the army to take over your continent and not worry about casualties causing WW, which is the great enemy of late game wars.

So my research path from 1150 would be Biology, Assembly Line, Fascism and then perhaps Steel (cannons and drydocks), Railroad (production bonus and movement) and Combustion (ships). I'm not sure what if any of that lot you could trade for. And of course you need Communism for spies to slow up Asoka's race for the stars. Maybe a few carriers could blow up critical spacerace resources or land a few sacrifical troops on Asoka's soil to distract him while you beat on Brennus?

You need to ship your scout over to keep an eye on friends on the other continent, so you can plan your road to victory.

Finally, you have 21 cities, Asoka has 12 and Mansa has 9 (if I counted correctly). So if you continue your conquests trade will be helping those two much more than it helps you, especially as they are tech trading buddies. Perhaps a switch to Mercantilism would be wise as it helps them less and you are philosophical anyway. If you did that I'd switch to Representation too, you don't seem to be using HR (although there are extreme drafting strategies that exploit HR)

UncleJJ: wrong thread?

Without realizing it, I have actually been playing with a less extreme variant of your play style. I usually run a hybrid FE/CE, focusing on growth up to the happiness cap and increasing trade routes as I go.

However, I'm not buying the idea of Markets increasing trade route revenue. My gut feeling says that it just doesn't make sense that a building that produces extra gold (not commerce) affects trade routes. If that is true, do shrines, grocers and banks then also influence trade route yield?

Very informative and interesting thread though!

Which buildings do modify it in that way?

Harbor/Cothon
Temple of Artemis

UncleJJ: wrong thread?

No. I'm commenting on the savegame at the bottom of post #5. Take a look at that if you want to understand what I'm saying.

I don't know why are you mixing temrs, FE with your trade economy?
FE can still run SE, cottages, or in your case trade routes.
In the end it's just a name..

Well, I think that it's also a build queue for new cities. You are prioritizing trade routes over everything, even specialists.

But yes, eventually your cities will start to look like CE or SE cities.

Harbor/Cothon
Temple of Artemis

Doesn't palace have a multiplier too ?

My trade route experience based upon a simple example and some checks in this game:


lets say we have 10 cities and another civ has also 10 cities and we both have free market... ...all other civs are running merk

We have 10 cities with 4 traderoutes = 40
The other civ has also 10*4=40 traderoutes

In ideal circumstances ALL cities of our civ would get a foreing trade route...

BUT

The AI usuall has cities 20+ and gets maybe 3-4 gold for an internal traderoute. So foreign trade routes will only come to our cities, when we are offering better results in trade FOR the AI.

When we have a city that offers the AI 4+ gold per trade route, the city WILL get a foreign trade route within the next few turns

Since city size alone doesn´t make the trade route profit big enough for foreign trade routes to come in, you need buildings... ...ALL buildings increase the trade revenue a bit, but some more then others (this is only based on my experience, but I strongly think it is true).

You can check out my save... ...remove harbours and/or markets in some cities and the traderoutes switch to internal... ...add harbours and/or markets to other cities, they will get external trade-routes

Another prove is, that costal size 10 cities without harbour and/or market only have internal trade routes, but a tiny size 6 city with harbour and/or maket HAS foreign trade routes

...

What I basicly want to say with this:

You will get MORE foreign trade routes when GROWING a city and BUILDING infrastructure (the net revenue of the trade-routes remains the same, they simply switch from internal to external)

The increase in money/research when trade-routes switch internal-external is much bigger, then a cottage or a specialist can ever offer. Better to only use specialists or cottages, when your city is fully grown and you have enough infra to GET foreign trade routes

...

You can again check this out in my savegame:

Worldbuilder in some more harbours and/or markets, hit enter some turns and count the total amount of foreign trade routes... ...they total number will GROW

Remove harbours and/or makets and the total number of foreign trader routes will DROP, because then internal AI trade will bring more profit

...

Back to our 10 city example:

10 cities size 6+ with NO infratructure will have only 40 internal trade routes with an income of 40 gold via trade no matter what civics you run

5 cities out of 10 cities size 6+ with harbours, markets and some other infra will get foreign trade routes (maybe 20*6=120 income + 20 internal)

It gets harder to bring ALL cities to external trade routes, because your last/weakest cities will have to compete with internal AI capital and 1-3 supercity trade, so bringing in ALL 10 cities to EXTERNAL trade requires quite a big city with lots of improvements

...

SUMMARY:

bigger cities, more infra (I still think commerce infra counts higer then others, but everybody feel free to prove me wrong) = more external trade routes = more money

I called it FE, because I used food only to build/grow/prosper (except capital & military city, and later captured cities), but feel free to rename it to whatever you like.

...

Concerning this game:

I don´t know when I have time to play on, but basically I plan to beeline Assembly Line to unlock the German special building and to use it for some trading (bio +x).

The techs and production we have right now, will be enough to stomp our conti completely without too much trouble (cavalry + trebs for Shaka, cavalry, grens, rifles + trebs for Mongolia).

...

Problem starts later... ...here my plan is to try and beeline for artillery and massproduce them via the production boost of the forge and the german special building, bribe Ash and Mansa to war with Brennus and to take enough of Brennus cities with huge artillery stack BEFORE Ash leaves for the stars (what will be the hardest part of it)...

Well, I think that it's also a build queue for new cities. You are prioritizing trade routes over everything, even specialists.

But yes, eventually your cities will start to look like CE or SE cities.


exactly right

Finally, you have 21 cities, Asoka has 12 and Mansa has 9 (if I counted correctly). So if you continue your conquests trade will be helping those two much more than it helps you, especially as they are tech trading buddies. Perhaps a switch to Mercantilism would be wise as it helps them less and you are philosophical anyway.

This is not true because (as always, in my opinion):

1. AI gets much more for internal trade then we do because of bigger cities with more infra

2. We get much bigger revenue for EACH foreign trade route then the AI beacause of 1 (our cities are bah compared to those of the AI:D)

3. We would never get foreign trade routes to ALL our cities anyway because of 1 (AI capitals and supercities just are to good in internal trade I think) . We only need to be better then average Ash - Mansa trade what should be fairly easy for average AI city, because of distance and foreign continent

4. When we go merk, Ash - Mansa trade will STILL be much better then our merk bonus would help us

Trade routes are fairly well understood. This article Trade Routes (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=159047) describes how they work after some discussion. It is clear that the only building that affects the value of trade is the harbour (+50%), and the ToA adds (+100%). Foreign trade routes count double. Otherwise the value is dependent on the size of the two cities. So the marketplace definitely has no effect on the commerce gained from trade.

This is not true because (as always, in my opinion):

1. AI gets much more for internal trade then we do because of bigger cities with more infra

2. We get much bigger revenue for EACH foreign trade route then the AI beacause of 1 (our cities are bah compared to those of the AI:D)

3. We would never get foreign trade routes to ALL our cities anyway because of 1 (AI capitals and supercities just are to good in internal trade I think) . We only need to be better then average Ash - Mansa trade what should be fairly easy for average AI city, because of distance and foreign continent

4. When we go merk, Ash - Mansa trade will STILL be much better then our merk bonus would help us

The problem is you can only ever have 1 trade route with each foreign city.

So Asoka gets 21 foreign routes with you and another 9 with Mansa plus 5 with Kublai. So nearly all his 13 cities have good trade routes. Mansa gets 21 foreign routes with you, 13 with Asoka and doesn't have open borders with Kublai. Again nearly all his 9 cities have good trade routes.

You on the otherhand have 21 cities needing 84 trade routes (if I counted correctly) and yet you only get 13 Asoka plus 9 Mansa = 22 foreign trade routes; not even enough for 6 of your cities. Therefore you are helping Asoka and Mansa MUCH more then they help you. :(

You really should switch to Mercantilism to slow down their research and if you build libraries everywhere and run Representation you can get 21 * 6 beakers.

Although it certainly is not the trade route theory that is making your game interesting, you are certainly doing something right :) . I guess it is you rapid expansion and the 8 GP you created and the good diplomacy and tech trading.

@ UncleJJ:

Thanks for the link...

But my question (after reading a little in the link you posted still remains):

I know now more or less, how trade routes are calculated, but still my question remains:
What mechanics EXACTLY causes a swich from an internal to an external trade route then, when not city infra (pop alone can´t be)???

For clarifcation:
I don´t mean a modfier to the trade revenue (here only harbours, I know) but the actual CHANGING from internal to external trade routes

The problem is you can only ever have 1 trade route with each foreign city.

So Asoka gets 21 foreign routes with you and another 9 with Mansa plus 5 with Kublai. So nearly all his 13 cities have good trade routes. Mansa gets 21 foreign routes with you, 13 with Asoka and doesn't have open borders with Kublai. Again nearly all his 9 cities have good trade routes.

You on the otherhand have 21 cities needing 84 trade routes (if I counted correctly) and yet you only get 13 Asoka plus 9 Mansa = 22 foreign trade routes; not even enough for 6 of your cities. Therefore you are helping Asoka and Mansa MUCH more then they help you. :(


Thanks again for that info (my first post was more or less parallel to yours I think)

...

So I summ this up:

When I was playing peacefull and had about 10 cities (and all my neighbours were intact), I had greatest profit out of foreign trade routes because almost ALL my cities had FOREIGN trade routes

-> go free maket BEFORE REXing or when playing peacefull

...

When you have a decent techlead aquired by using early foreign trade routes and have REXed because you want to go dom, stop external trade routes and go merk

-> will give it a shot (at least, I will have someone to blame, when I loose this game:lol:)

normally I play space-race with around 10 cities only, so this problem/fact is quite surprising to me... ...I was thinking of forgeing trade routes to be more or less unlimited available... ...I have to admit that this is my first dom attemt since quite a while (too time consuming under normal circumstances:blush:)...

I guess what I take away from this thread is that he was able to maintain a tech lead on Immortal without cottage spamming or running specialists. So how did he do it? His focus on trade routes must be the answer

It does seem that, like an SE, you don't want the game to go on too long. An earlier victory would probably be preferrable, because of the diminishing returns discussed above.

P.S.

I think what he's trying to say is that there must be a way a game chooses trade routes among cities of the same population. Even if population were the main factor, there must be other factors determining which cities get the routes. His theory is that it's based around the city's total infrastructure, with extra weight given to commercial buildings. I think that's reasonable given his informal tests - at least the first part, don't know about Markets and such being more effective.

I guess what I take away from this thread is that he was able to maintain a tech lead on Immortal without cottage spamming or running specialists. So how did he do it? His focus on trade routes must be the answer

It does seem that, like an SE, you don't want the game to go on too long. An earlier victory would probably be preferrable, because of the diminishing returns discussed above.


The main problem I see now in this special game (the one I posted a save from), is that the trade-route approach (TR-economy maybe???) doesn´t fit well with the domination approach, because the discussion revealed that it looses effect when you have more then maybe 1/5 - 1/4 of the cities on the map (4 foreign cities = 4 trade routes for 1 city).

When having 10-15 cities, it works great when going for space-race (my usuall victory condition) in emperor/immortal (lower diffculties I haven´t tried & deity is always a gamble, no matter what approach you use)

Snaaty: Do you emphasize coastal locations when settling your early cities? I generally don't weight that factor highly (unless I'm planning to work seafood or lakes, and want a lighthouse).

And as I understand it, you're using a combination of a cottaged/Bureaucratic capital and GS lightbulbs through the early game, with trade routes only taking over after Economics and Astronomy. Yes?

peace,
lilnev

The main problem I see now in this special game (the one I posted a save from), is that the trade-route approach (TR-economy maybe???) doesn´t fit well with the domination approach, because the discussion revealed that it looses effect when you have more then maybe 1/5 - 1/4 of the cities on the map (4 foreign cities = 4 trade routes for 1 city).

When having 10-15 cities, it works great when going for space-race (my usuall victory condition) in emperor/immortal (lower diffculties I haven´t tried & deity is always a gamble, no matter what approach you use)

It is true that trading and relying on trade income is best in a peaceful environment. You can certainly use the approach (as you have demonstrated here) to get an advantage while preparing for rapid expansion by getting the techs and army ready. That is what I thought you were suggesting. But to conquer large tracts of land you need a robust economy in your home cities that can continue to provide research and gold to fund the expansion. And the only way to do that with a food economy is by building key economic buildings and running specialists. A trade based economy becomes very difficult to manage in combination with military action and as we have here in 1140 AD you are helping your main rivals more by trading than you gain yourself.

At some stage this economy needs to transition to a FE based on specialists running Representation, Mercantilism and perhaps Pacifism (if you have a religion). See aelf's current game Immortal Challenge 2 (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=5327633#post5327633) (savegame in post #311) and jihe game Another SE Immortal Game (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=214526&page=2) (savegame in post #31) for an indication of the sort of FE / SE economy we should be aiming towards. In both their games the food is being turned into GPPs and beakers and gold by the many specialists. The other important use of food is to provide lots of hammers from Slavery used to raise an army and to build essential buildings fast. A powerful alternative way to use food for an army is drafting but to use that effectively you need to solve the happiness issues associated with it and war weariness. An alternative to running Nationhood for drafting would be Free Speech for +2 commerce town bonus and 100% culture

I am sure you realise all this Snaaty, I only thought I'd try to put it into my own words :) My other comments earlier in this thread were an attempt to make the transition into a food based war economy suitable for domination.

Looking at your current 1140 savegame it is going to be difficult to make that transition quickly. I feel you should have started in that direction at an earlier stage. If you have a savegame at say 1 AD or even 500 AD then might be the time to start making the transition / preparations before the trade based part of the game diminishes.

Snaaty: Do you emphasize coastal locations when settling your early cities? I generally don't weight that factor highly (unless I'm planning to work seafood or lakes, and want a lighthouse).

And as I understand it, you're using a combination of a cottaged/Bureaucratic capital and GS lightbulbs through the early game, with trade routes only taking over after Economics and Astronomy. Yes?

peace,
lilnev

Question 1:

Yes, I build costal, whenever it´t possible because the trade bonus for costal cities (harbour) is much bigger, once your trade-routes grow

Question 2:

Trade routes start to work in costal cities long before Astro is in and free market is detected (when city is size 6+ and has harbour). But you only have two trade-routes and the revenue is smaller (3-4 per trade-route), because the go to other cities on your conti (costal city of rival AI´s)

Question 3:

Yes, 3-5 cottages in capital I always built extremely early (prio pottery in research) to beef my capital up for bureau

Question 4:

Yes, I always try to have one city extremeproduce GS (NE+ GL or NE + caste). I don´t do this in capital, because capital has to grow cottages and grow big

Question 5:

When astro + free market is in, trade-economy is much more effectiv then bureau..., so I usually switch to nationalism, because it´s cheap and baracks help in getting cheap happiness in (whipping..)

Question 6:

My general playstyle is FE, except of capital and 1-2 production cities (military)... ...I rely on whipping for building and growing (growth is the most important in a trade-economy anyway)

@ UncleJJ:

I will continue this game from 1140 AD... ...don´t like replaying too much... ...but feel free to pick the game at an earlier save an play along (I have 2 or 3 BC saves and saves around 100 AD & 600 AD which I can e-Mail you if you like)

The chances are small but still there to win dom in the end, if I continue from my last save I think

But thanks again for links and tips, will have a look

I've tried SE previously but found that myself falling behind after Liberalism. Reading this thread made me give it another try, this time focusing on the nationalism/caste system combo you described and wow! :crazyeye:

I was so far ahead in tech and production (on Monarch) that it wasn't even funny. I didn't build a single cottage, and still won a space victory in 1854. I think my previous attempts failed because I didn't use CS early and often enough.

Thanks for sharing, Snaaty! :goodjob:

@ yena:

Great that it worked out for you (and yes, you can end up beeing pretty far ahead in tech:lol:) ...

In vanilla 1.61 it was even possilbe to bring home a deity space-race without any cottages when you have drawn a lucky start using this strat

...

Now in warlords with the techclub more focusing on research I tend to build 3-5 cottages for capital early (helps winning the lib-race) and to use FE only thereafter... ...this even resulted in faster teching:)

What mechanics EXACTLY causes a swich from an internal to an external trade route then, when not city infra (pop alone can´t be)???

Don't they simply always switch to the city that would give the biggest prophit? I presume this is carryed out globally, so a civ will co-ordinate it's links to get the biggest gross, rather than get a small gain followed by a larger loss.

Well, the difference to CE is easy:

Don´t build cottages, farm everything (except early capital)...

...

OK, the difference to SE is also easy:

Don´t run specialist (except GS farm)...

...

But how exactly works and FE and where does the research come from?

To answer those questions, I have attached the next screen, where a typical FE city-screen is shown:

151314


What do we see:

We have a size 9 city which has an output of about 50 beakers at 100% research at around 1000 AD.

When you have expanded well and FE is used properly, you will have about 10 -15 of those cities around that time, so your research will be at around 500+ beakers WITHOUT your science city AND your capital (that´s why a tech like assembly line takes only 12 turns to research that early:D)

...

How can this be done?

To analyze this a little closer, we have another look at the city-screen above:

Buildings:

Theatre - first building, to expand city borders
Granary - to speed growth
Lighthouse - to speed growth
Harbour - to increase trade
Courthouse - to reduce costs

I usually build these buildings in this order. More buildings aren´t needed (if it´s a non costal city, you need a market)

Why this buildings:

We want to grow... ...not to be big, but to use the whip to get our buildings faster.

We will whip every single building a city can build, as long as we aren´t forced via emancipation to leave slavery. Economy buildings first, science next...

We only have to take care of the city remaining size 6+, to bring in enough trade via trade routes (+harbour and/or market)

...

There we are

...

TRADE-ROUTES

...

I usually run herrule (NOT rep), nationalism, slavery, free market and free religion.

Now you only have to bribe one of the other AI´s early to switch to free market and your research will go crasy:goodjob:

...

BEFORE reaching free market, I usually run bureau and let my capital do the research (I build 3-5 cottages & academy... ...this will do normally). Another city gets the national epic (and, if lucky, the Great Library) and under pacifism I try to get as many GS as possible.

Around the time when lightbulbing and capital-research start loosing their effects (normally when lib is in), the other cities take over and I switch to nationalism (cheap and baracks help keeping the cities happy)

...

VERY IMPORTANT:

You must go heavy into politics to really be able to work this strat. Early warmongering and playing agressiv normally doesn´t go well with that, so you have to take care which neighbours you can attack (better to prepare every attack via diplo or missionaries)

...

Back that strat up with one science city and 1 (or 2) production cities and you will get amazing results

...

When everything important is build and all city tiles are worked (=most cities are fully grown), only then your cities will start hiring specialists. This is the time, when you can switch to rep.

I believe I have gotten this to almost work on my first BTS Monarch game using Mansa Musa (Marathon Speed/Huge Maps).

I had no rivers at all, so cottaging was really no that efficient but I had all coastal cities. I build the oracle/Great lighthouse/Colossus and turned into more of a seafaring economy. Beelined astronomy, made friends and only went to war when I needed to. I changed to a cottage economy once I got emancipation and corporation (no GL anymore :sad: ), and this worked well.
But the majority of my research came from trade routes and working sea tiles. All this with only 9 cities (again Huge map).

Unfortunately while I was about 2/3s of the way through the space ship parts, my sugardaddy and southern protection Agustus was overrun by Cyrus who eventually overran my lands. If Agustus could have withstood the Persians this strat would have worked.

mad, could you please avoid quoting such a long text for nothing please? Just saying you refer to the OP is enough, i think =)

EDIT: np mad, and you can edit your post as i edited this one ;)

Sorry about that.

Blake nerfed the AI city size as part of their new economic model. BtS trade routes are somewhat less lucrative, but still nice.

Originally Posted by Snaaty
What do we see:

We have a size 9 city which has an output of about 50 beakers at 100% research at around 1000 AD.

When you have expanded well and FE is used properly, you will have about 10 -15 of those cities around that time, so your research will be at around 500+ beakers WITHOUT your science city AND your capital (that´s why a tech like assembly line takes only 12 turns to research that early)

What level are you playing? Researching Assembly line at 1.100 AD???????????

Blake nerfed the AI city size as part of their new economic model. BtS trade routes are somewhat less lucrative, but still nice.

Agreed, but it was added the Customs house, with a 50% bonus on intercontinental trade routes.... Useless in Pangea, but very, very useful in other map types ( especially in the case of the Portuguese UB. BTW the portuguese leader looks very good for the OP proposed strat. IMP/EXP = Lots of big and developed cities )

What level are you playing? Researching Assembly line at 1.100 AD???????????

the game is on deity I believe

Trade Route Calculation (not where they go but how much they are worth when there) has two parts

1. Base value= value of the trade route based on who it is from

2. Bonuses=value based on the city you are in

those two are then multiplied

# 1 is the LOWER of
Population * 0.1 OR Distance *0.06 (standard sized map)
with a minimum of 1 (note decimal places Count here even if you don't see them)

so cities that are less than pop 10 or closer than 15 really don't help


2. has 3 factors that depend on who is being traded with
Foreign cities (at peace) +150%
Overseas +100%
[+50% if Overseas, Foreign, and a Custom House]
Otherwise the bonuses are
Population +5% every pop over 10
Harbor +50%
Is this city connected to the capital=+25%

so assuming that you get 1 base value and you have 2 trade routes (the probable situation early game)
Each population gives you +5% to the base value (total base value of 2) so

Each population adds 0.1 commerce from Trade routes

Of course Each population also increases All City and Civic Maintenance by about 5% as well (1/18 ... except for Distance which goes up 1/10)

So extra population really doesn't help much in your cities. (unless you are having Domestic trade routes)

However, Getting a Harbor, and maintaining peace with multiple overseas (not necessarily overocean) trading partners does help your overall balance.

So a TE (Trade Economy) mostly relies on staying small, and using Food for Production... which means HR and Slavery (whip a cheap Defender when Unhappiness gets too high)
ToA, GL, Bureaucracy are all good ones to get. The Tech lines are the Economic (Currency-Banking-Economics-Corporation) and to Astronomy to get more Trade Routes available.

Also good on multi-player maps, more players means more trade partners that aren'r much bigger than you.

You should play montezuma

The overall number of trader routes stayes the same of course per city (4 internal trade routes change to 4 external trade routes for example, but the revenue may jump up from 4x1 to 4x6or7)

If you dont mind, can you explain this again. What im so far reading is that if a city has a market, it will get foreign trade routes for obviously more commerce than usual. If it doesn't have a market, it will only have weak domestic trade routes.

But from my experience, aren't foreign trade routes capped at the total number of cities other AI's have. So if you have Open borders with only 1 other civ, and the other civ has 10 cities, the max foreign trade routes you can have is 10. Am I correct?

Now what you seem to say is that if you build a market, your trade routes are going up from 4X1 to 4X6, in other words your going from domestic routes to foreign routes. If this was the case, either A. You are taking away foreign trade routes from some of your other cities, due to 1 foreign trade route per foreign city, or B. You still havent reached that cap, so you getting the extra foreign trade routes without taking them away from your other cities. But if B was the case, a market shouldnt make any difference, because you should already have the most profitable route in that city, which would be a foreign trade route anyways.

I simply cannot figure out how markets affect trade routes.

If you dont mind, can you explain this again. What im so far reading is that if a city has a market, it will get foreign trade routes for obviously more commerce than usual. If it doesn't have a market, it will only have weak domestic trade routes.

But from my experience, aren't foreign trade routes capped at the total number of cities other AI's have. So if you have Open borders with only 1 other civ, and the other civ has 10 cities, the max foreign trade routes you can have is 10. Am I correct?

Now what you seem to say is that if you build a market, your trade routes are going up from 4X1 to 4X6, in other words your going from domestic routes to foreign routes. If this was the case, either A. You are taking away foreign trade routes from some of your other cities, due to 1 foreign trade route per foreign city, or B. You still havent reached that cap, so you getting the extra foreign trade routes without taking them away from your other cities. But if B was the case, a market shouldnt make any difference, because you should already have the most profitable route in that city, which would be a foreign trade route anyways.

I simply cannot figure out how markets affect trade routes.

I think (not entirely sure) that the idea is that if there are a lot AIs with open borders with each other you are competing against the other AI cities to get the international trade routes. For example say one of cities is looking for an international trade route and you don't have any trade routes with New York (and you don't own NYC) if NYC can get better routes with another AI you don't get the route and if this happens for all the remaining international cities you get stuck with domestic but you build something in your city to improve the route now maybe you get the route with NYC.

edit: now I don't know why a market would make the difference but maybe the code takes it into account

What im so far reading is that if a city has a market, it will get foreign trade routes for obviously more commerce than usual. If it doesn't have a market, it will only have weak domestic trade routes.

I think you are reading that correctly. It isn't true, but that does seem to be what people are saying.

In Warlords (I haven't checked for changes in BTS), trade routes are assigned by first sorting your cities so that the cities with the highest trade route modifiers go first (in the case of a tie, I believe the older city comes first - I did not look carefully enough to be 100% certain, but that is consistent with what you will find elsewhere in the game).

The trade route modifier is determined by the buildings in the city, by the city population, with an additional term that depends on the city being connected to your capital. The buildings that affect the trade route modifier are the Harbor (and its variants) and the Temple of Artemis.

Once the order of the cities has been worked out, each city in turn will acquire all of its trade routes, choosing of those available the most lucrative. Because you are allowed only one trade route to a foreign (which I believe really means "not my team mate") city, this normally means that your best cities will have all of the really big routes, and your lesser cities will only trade domestically.

I think (not entirely sure) that the idea is that if there are a lot AIs with open borders with each other you are competing against the other AI cities to get the international trade routes.

No. A-has-a-trade-route-to-B does not imply B-has-a-trade-route-to-A.


In any case, Markets have nothing to do with it. They only come into play after the routes have been determined, and the commerce has been converted to gold. Harbors are pretty key, though.

Since I have returned from my little hiatus, I'll add something here.

Myself I have to admit a lot of my income does come from trade routes. Why? Because I skip wasting time on building cottages.

I still get enough commerce to pay my way through each campaign, so that should be a reminder to people that tweaking TRs can have a strong effect.

the game is on deity I believe

Unbelievable if it is on deity...how can you be that advanced in 1.100? Maybe marathon speed but even then it seems ridiculus.

Well that could be answered easily enough... ask for the saves and let's see.

To indian smoke: don deity snaaty is a wizard of the economy, I've looked at his games and don't know how he does it.

Well that could be answered easily enough... ask for the saves and let's see.

It is Deity. The savegame is in post #5.

Unbelievable if it is on deity...how can you be that advanced in 1.100? Maybe marathon speed but even then it seems ridiculus.

Higher difficulty can actually help your tech pace if you are smart with your trades. In a lot of my monarch games I have to research everything myself because the AI tech pace is so slow. A higher difficulty would actually help because then I could get more techs in trade - even so that tech pace is amazing.

Correct me if I'm wrong but wouldn't that be considered more a Trade Route Economy?

How is that considered a Food Economy, all the Research is coming from Trade Routes. I mean I guess because your running farms instead of cottages but that is silly, thats like calling a Specialist Economy a Food Economy.

Aelf actually ran a very good Trade Route Economy on one of his Emperor games, he complimented it with The Great Lighthouse and The Temple of Artemis.

He explains that in the OP, doesn't he?

I know exactly what he says, the point is it should be considered a Trade Route Economy not a food economy.

A Cottage Economy is called a CE because its research comes from Cottages, a Specialist Economy because its research comes from Specialists.

That Economies research comes from Trade Routes, it's a Trade Route economy, it has nothing to do with food and as Aelf did you can run a pretty good one by pairing coastal cities with ToA and The Great Lighthouse.

I can see your french so I'll ignore your arrogant rudeness, and false claims at civility.

What a Civilized Country you have there.

PARIS, March 23 -- On Thursday afternoon, as a crowd of as many as 140,000 young people and others prepared to end their march in the large park fronting the gold-domed Hotel des Invalides housing Napoleon's tomb, gangs of hooded and masked youths darted out of side streets, setting cars ablaze, flipping others upside down, breaking store windows and throwing rocks and stones at police and firefighters, according to witnesses.

Riot police broke up the groups of rampaging youths with tear gas as acrid, black smoke filled narrow streets and billowed above the city skyline.

Police said 60 people were injured in the clashes, including 27 police officers, and 141 people were arrested.

Warned for flaming and trolling.

I know exactly what he says, the point is it should be considered a Trade Route Economy not a food economy.

A Cottage Economy is called a CE because its research comes from Cottages, a Specialist Economy because its research comes from Specialists.

That Economies research comes from Trade Routes, it's a Trade Route economy, it has nothing to do with food and as Aelf did you can run a pretty good one by pairing coastal cities with ToA and The Great Lighthouse.

I can see your french so I'll ignore your arrogant rudeness, and false claims at civility.

What a Civilized Country you have there.

PARIS, March 23 -- On Thursday afternoon, as a crowd of as many as 140,000 young people and others prepared to end their march in the large park fronting the gold-domed Hotel des Invalides housing Napoleon's tomb, gangs of hooded and masked youths darted out of side streets, setting cars ablaze, flipping others upside down, breaking store windows and throwing rocks and stones at police and firefighters, according to witnesses.

Riot police broke up the groups of rampaging youths with tear gas as acrid, black smoke filled narrow streets and billowed above the city skyline.

Police said 60 people were injured in the clashes, including 27 police officers, and 141 people were arrested.

Quoted for reference, so that you know why you got your ban =)

What part of the world do you come from, by the way? I'd like to know, so that i don't make the mistake to think they are all like you over there ;)

EDIT: oh, while i'm here... Sorry, he doesn't mention it in the OP, my bad. You actually had to read to page 2 (hard, i know, but, hey, life's tough). Let me help you:
I called it FE, because I used food only to build/grow/prosper (except capital & military city, and later captured cities), but feel free to rename it to whatever you like.

Still, don't mind me. I'm sure you're not interested in the info as much as you are in throwing away random pieces of text with the vague goal of trying to antagonize people you don't know =)

I kind of agree that it's better off called the "trade route economy", but only at first glance. The key to make it work is called the "trade route" because it's an "economy", but it could also be called food "strategy" because he also uses the whip and drafting, both of which are food "resources"... err... people, actually.

The naming of this strategy is difficult in a sense, because:
- specialist economies also use slavery, but not so much drafting
- cottage economies rely on gold-rushing rather than real hammers most of the time
- hybrid economies don't rely on gold or food for hammers, they tend to use real hammers.

My question is this: when do food economies obselete, and do they then turn into cottage or specialist economies? Or could you always keep the largest cities, keep the biggest empires, have all the resources you need to sustain these large cities, and reap all the most profitable trade routes all the way to your spaceship? And do you actually reap enough trade route commerce so that you could start buying units and buildings?

Great strategy, but I figure I'll probably not try to use it. It just seems too sohpisticated, and I'm one that occasionally beats deity, but plays on immortal most of the time.

I'm mildly confused; it sounds like all the opening post is telling me is:

(1) Use slavery.
(2) Grow big.

But these things are good ideas no matter how you're playing the game.

Why not combine food and cottages instead? Still lots of beakers, still rapid growth, and it doesnt require friendly civs to work. Also slavery gives a better hammer return than mines until the city grows past a certain size so production is not an issue either. By the time emancipation kicks in everything useful should be built, and you have a lot of towns to work. All of this while still having trade routes.

Holy thread necromancy Batman!

Bah, it's only a couple months. I've seen worse! And it's been linked to recently anyways, so :p.

Why not combine food and cottages instead?

Please tell me how you can build both farm and cottage on same tile.

Please tell me how you can build both farm and cottage on same tile.

You need to use a worker and nearly any flatland tile that is a farm can be converted into a cottage. :mischief:

It is easy to have a mixture of cottages and farms for almost any city (which is what he meant by combining food and cottages).

Some of the information you claim about trade route profit is incorrect. Markets have nothing to do with traderoute profits except that they can boost your science rate at equilibrium(no gold lost) by around %10-15, because they increase the total gold you are getting by %25, and more of the total commerce you get overall can be spent into science.,

Refer to Krikkitone's article for full trade route mathematics. I guess since you are playing at deity difficulty, and the AI gets to support really large cities, the trade they generate is larger than lower difficulties. Also, the distance to such cities matters, and you get %100 trade if the trading city is on another continent.

Basically, trade income has nothing to do with markets except if your city grows larger due to the happiness brought in by the markets, then your larger city can support a better trade route.

Link to Krikkitone's article:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=159047

A previous poster mentioned using this high food technique with Aztecs for their UB (Spiritual is also nice for switching between slavery and caste). Seems like a worthwhile idea as whipping twice as much allows for so many possibilities - your primary buildings come out faster, you can whip twice as much military, or use the double whipping speed to abuse overflow twice as much (maybe towards an expensive wonder).

Also, weren't Custom Houses boosted in the last patch?

Assembly line in 1140 is amazing.

Which buildings do modify it in that way?

Just went through CIV4BuildingInfos.XML and found no trade modifiers besides harbor and Temple of Artemis.

In a current game on Monarch level, I have 12 cities. Typical is a size 18 city with foreign trade routes worth 3-5. My best is my capital, pop 28, coastal, trade routes worth 16-18. It's 1886, so all cities have all buildings they could want, I am running free market, have open borders with nearly all opponents, and most of them are running free markety too.

Don't see how an earlier poster's claim that one can routinely get c.10/route is supposed to work.

CK

You probably were looking at the Civ building infos instead of the BtS building infos. Look in the other directory.

Anyway, maybe with Customs in all your cities on a huge multicontient map. If your routes were 3-5 (or higher), then +100% would be 6-10 (or higher).

Wodan

Basically, trade income has nothing to do with markets except if your city grows larger due to the happiness brought in by the markets, then your larger city can support a better trade route.
Krikkitone's article explains how trade route income is calculated, but not how the game determines which trade routes you get.

Snaaty claims that the important factor for getting the critical foreign trade routes is population 6 and the presence of a harbor or market. He never claims that the market increases the trade income earned directly, only indirectly by forcing the lucrative foreign trade routes to appear.

I asked in Krikkitone's thread a long time ago if he could explain the mechanic of how the game determines where the trade routes go. He has never replied and I somehow doubt he will.

As I've said before, I've downloaded many save games from here, but the raw commerce produced in this save file was so far and above better than anything I've ever seen before or since. Understanding the mechanics behind what is going on would be very nice, but unfortunately the article you link does not effectively answer the most important question which again is what determines whether you get the good foreign routes or the bad internal routes.

Barring someone examining the code, I trust Snaaty on this and believe him about the markets. After all, he is the one with the ridiculous commerce figures in 1100 ad. I don't have the patience for the diplomacy needed to really test it though since this economy precludes frequent warring.

Don't see how an earlier poster's claim that one can routinely get c.10/route is supposed to work.

CK

They aren't.

The main factor behind route income is the base value, determined by the size of foreign cities (though capped by distance), so you have no power over it.

Snaaty's trade economy was great for Warlords Deity because Warlords AI favored big cities and deity bonuses made growing them easy for the AI.

BtS AI favored city size is about 10 pop less and monarch bonuses aren't close to deity. It won't work for you.

You probably were looking at the Civ building infos instead of the BtS building infos. Look in the other directory.

Anyway, maybe with Customs in all your cities on a huge multicontient map. If your routes were 3-5 (or higher), then +100% would be 6-10 (or higher).

Wodan

Unfortunately, no.

Custom houses add just one more % bonus to a long list, that includes:

peace with foreign civ = 150%
oversea trade = 100%
harbor = 50%
connection to capital = 25%
pop bonus = 5% for every point above 10 in your city
base 100% (obviously)

So, custom houses are kind of weak, unless you happen to have a route to a very large foreign city, not likely in BtS.

Here's a game example (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6453284&postcount=88) of tons of % bonuses piled in BtS for mediocre return.

Krikkitone's article explains how trade route income is calculated, but not how the game determines which trade routes you get.

I asked in Krikkitone's thread a long time ago if he could explain the mechanic of how the game determines where the trade routes go. He has never replied and I somehow doubt he will.


I have poked around in there, but haven't gotten back to my article

Basically, it goes through all of your cities in order of their basic Trade route modifier (High population cities with Harbors and ToA go first)

and then for each City it gives it the trade route cities that will give it the best profit (commerce value)

The player gets no more than one trade route with each foreign city.

Pop 6 and Markets shouldn't figure in at all. (for trade routes)

What the...? I have to try this one myself, I can't believe you're researching Assembly Line in 1150AD. Way to go! :goodjob:

he is playing on a low level...thats why.

he is playing on a low level...thats why.

No.

"About this game:

It´s a deity game I´m just playing... ..."

he is playing on a low level...thats why.

I laugh at this the thought of Snaaty playing settler. :lol:

It IS pretty funny. I doubt the FE would work on low difficulties actually. Since it relies very heavily on the AI having strong cities for the trade routes, playing on some difficulty where the AI cities tend to be garbage would be counterproductive. Although, on settler you could probably win regardless...

Unfortunately, no.
Oh, I see. My numbers were wrong. I think the point is still valid, though.

Here's a game example (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6453284&postcount=88) of tons of % bonuses piled in BtS for mediocre return.
I don't think that's "mediocre". He has 8/route and 5-6 routes (hard to tell because it scrolls) which is 40-48 commerce, which is going 100% into reasearch and will be modified by the library/univ/observatory for total research of about 150/turn just from trade routes. That's nothing to sneeze at, particularly since that city is a production city, if you ignore the trade routes. Heck, it's been used to churn out wonders.

Wodan

I think what Unconquered Sun's example shows is the weakness of the Temple of Artemis, as far as trade route bonus is concerned in BtS. It used to be a very powerful boost to trade in Warlords and aelf had a game based around it. That 100% bonus seems weak compared to other bonusses like 100% for overseas trade, 100% for foreign trade (custom house is that?), and 150% for sustained peace. So I guess it would only reduce the income from trade routes in that example by 1 or 2 commerce if the Temple of Artemis wasn't present. Of course it still provides a good source of GPPs with its free priest and that is good reason to build it anyway.

Don't overlook that ToA is available early, when those other bonuses aren't available or if available are much weaker. Sure, over time, ToA's value becomes weaker. Heck, the "free priest" becomes a weaker benefit as well, relative to the city as well as your empire as a whole. Over time, both the city and your empire become much bigger. What was once a 5-10% boost is now 1% or less.

Also, in addition to getting them early (when their benefit is more), you get both those things (plus GPP) over a longer span of the game.

Wodan

True, but it still only adds about 1 commerce per trade route in the early game. Is it worth building an expensive wonder just for a little commerce?

My point was that ToA has been significantly weakened in BtS such that it is no longer a powerful strategy to combine it with the Great Lighthouse as it was in aelf's game. The effectiveness of trade is now dependent on several other factors in all cities and the income from trade has been adjusted to take account of that. ToA has suffered from that change in the way trade income is calculated. I suspect that its trade bonus would need to be +300% for it to recover the effect it had in Warlords. I am just bewailing the fact that we've lost one of the old trade strategies :)

I don't think that's "mediocre". He has 8/route and 5-6 routes (hard to tell because it scrolls) which is 40-48 commerce, which is going 100% into reasearch and will be modified by the library/univ/observatory for total research of about 150/turn just from trade routes. That's nothing to sneeze at, particularly since that city is a production city, if you ignore the trade routes. Heck, it's been used to churn out wonders.

Wodan

Still, compare my BtS screen with the OP screen.

BtS: pop 12 capital with ToA and custom house having the highest base value routes possible: 8 commerce routes.

Warlords: pop 9 completely random&average city in Snaaty's empire, has only a harbor, obviously it doesn't get the highest value routes and yet: two routes of 9 commerce and two routes of 8 commerce.

That's nerfing.

Is not that because the cities snaaty is trading with are way larger?

True, but it still only adds about 1 commerce per trade route in the early game. Is it worth building an expensive wonder just for a little commerce?

My point was that ToA has been significantly weakened in BtS such that it is no longer a powerful strategy to combine it with the Great Lighthouse as it was in aelf's game. The effectiveness of trade is now dependent on several other factors in all cities and the income from trade has been adjusted to take account of that. ToA has suffered from that change in the way trade income is calculated. I suspect that its trade bonus would need to be +300% for it to recover the effect it had in Warlords. I am just bewailing the fact that we've lost one of the old trade strategies :)
Yeah, I agree with all that. Well except not "lost" but certainly weakened.

You'd think they would have re-evaluated such things as wonder bonuses when they change the formula for the underlying feature.

Wodan