Because of the numerous amount of spoilers in Sisiutil ALC games, he has given his blessing to a thread purely devoted to his current game and those players that use his beginning save to play it out. Sisiutil will not be peeking at this thread at all. Hopefully you can share your game here. There shouldnt be any need for spoilers in his current ALC game.

Guess Ill start. This was a tough map to play. Monarch on an isolated start. I started with a worker first as it seems like the best strategy to me given the starting techs.
Research was
Mining
BW
Masonry
AH
Fishing.......Fishing was chosen in anticipation of my second city site which would claim the clams, cow and rice directly west of the capitol.

I started in the Great Wall after 2 warriors and another worker. I feverishly chopped it out and completed it in 1780BC and I still only had 1 city....ouch.

Settler will head here first. I didnt need metals right away, I need growth and production. This would do that.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/97311/Civ4ScreenShotB1.jpg

This is the same city in 1178AD and it had built the Collosus.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/97311/Civ4ScreenShotB2.jpg

This was the point where i had just gotten Optics after beelining for it. I had to meet people. But, this is where i found out how far behind i was. This is the tech screen with the only civ I had met...Monty.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/97311/Civ4ScreenShotB3.jpg

Pretty Bad. I didnt have hardly any cottages. My tech rate was awful. I had 6 cities at this point all in decent locations. BTW, I stayed behind most of the game. I did beeline a few techs to try and trade, but most of the time, the AI beat me to it.

Between giving in to allmost every demand ther AI made, never converting to any religion, and signing defensive pacts with 2 powerhouses...Cyrus and Cathy, I never fought anyone. I had 1 phony war with frederick pre-Astronomy, but that was it.

Once I settled my island, cottaged it up, and made sure i had a steady stream of Great People. I started catching up. It wasnt until I beelined for the Internet and built it in my Ironworks that i caught up.

After that, it was a matter of destroying all the cottages in favor of watermills, farms, and workshops. I launched in 1899. Heres a few pics of some cities the turn before launch.

Capitol
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/97311/Civ4ScreenShotB4.jpg

Ironworks
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/97311/Civ4ScreenShotB5.jpg

My 11 cities
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/97311/Civ4ScreenShotB6.jpg

Final score was 16191...Augustus Caesar

Long story , short , i have won through diplomacy at 1904 after 4 failed attempts. (the previous years) I could have won much earlier and i was hitting the enter button like Hell. I and others only had war with Montezuma who was our constant Punching bag . He proved a great help to get the Others to like me. As he was a neighbor of Catherine and Capac he never sent anything at me. I stayed without religion until the end to where i converted to Confucianism to apease Frederic and Ragnar.


The capital was a 25 population city and a great Specialist farm. But i was making great merchants rather that what you expect . Why ? , but for the +1 food of course .

The isolated start proved to be a great advantage . The Ai where Warring with each other and could easily be manipulated to like you or to war some more.



Here is the last save.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/110801/Sisiutil_AD-1903.CivWarlordsSave

I'm also playing a shadow game. Only got up to 40bc. Could people put details of their game in spoilers because otherwise the various shadow games get spoiled anyway :lol: .

i have won through diplomacy at 1904 after 4 failed attempts

I Built the UN as well, but couldnt get the votes.

I Built the UN as well, but couldnt get the votes.

Yes it was harder than it seemed . Ragnar even though he was pleased with me and cautious with Cyrus he would always sustain. I had to adopt to their religion and force Ragnar into war with Cyrus and Frederic to stop trade with him so they could vote for me. But then I didn't tech as fast as you so i wouldn't win by Space race faster anyway.

you have to get +8 to have them vote for you...

one suicide internet win!
OK, this is doable :).
I believe beelining to optics is counterproductive (not much to trade).
I don't have time for it right now, but I would try a pyramids gambit with the faraway stone city.
I believe a standard CE (loads of workers, cottage spamming, rush to liberalism) approach would be an almost sure win.

Sisiutil ALC 15: Ottoman Empire
A Shadow Game

I too decided to try and play Sisutil’s Ottoman all leaders’ challenge game. Here is my take on it.

Early Game: 4000BC-10BC
I settled in place and started work on a worker while researching hunting. I wanted to get a scout out to pop the huts. I would use my warrior to map, and not to pop huts. Hunting would make animal husbandry cheaper later anyway.

Prior to the worker’s completion, Istanbul’s borders expanded, popping a hut in the process which generated mining.

When hunting completed, I took advantage of having mining already and begun research on bronze working.

Once bronze working completed, I began to research animal husbandry.

The scout completed as Istanbul grew to size 3 and I set it to build a settler (assisted with a chop).

After animal husbandry, I researched mysticism, polytheism and priesthood.

The first hut I popped with the scout generated masonry. Researching hunting and building a scout just paid for itself.

I sent the worker (guarded by the warrior) south to the copper site to secure it and to start building the roads that would be required to hook up the copper prior to the settler founding a city there.

The next hut got me a measly 22gold.

When the settler was completed, he, escorted by the scout, moved south to join the warrior and worker while the capital started work on some military police (a warrior) while growing its population.

Edrine was built directly between the copper and the cows. When it was constructed it was already connected to the capital and the road to the copper was ½ complete. I set it to build a worker. This will be required to help build the oracle in Istanbul. You can have a look at its placement in the screenshot below which shows an overview of the empire.

Sending out a scout to pop huts turned out to be a mixed blessing. I did manage to get masonry (but might have gotten that with a warrior) but I also had to research hunting and build a scout instead of a warrior. Additionally, I just found a hut guarded by an archer. If I had popped the hut earlier with a warrior I would have got the results (good or bad) immediately instead of having to worry about clearing an archer. I plan to pop the hut with a city.

I decide to try to build a third city prior to starting the oracle. I have to do something while I wait for priesthood to be completed.

In 2110BC, I find one last hut (besides the one guarded by a barb archer) and manage to pop pottery. I must say I am very pleased at this point with the whole hunting and scout approach.

Priesthood completes and I begin research on writing (to allow code of laws). Istanbul builds the settler and it sent north (to a waiting warrior) and starts on the oracle. In the meantime, Edrine is set to produce some axemen for defence.

Ankara is founded to the north next to the cows and begins work on a worker.

Writing completes and I start research on iron-working. Its not that I need swordsmen, but rather that there is a LOT of jungle on this island and I’ll need it eventually. Its better to know where the iron is early so I can make the most of its position (and hammers).

In one of the first battle with the barbs, I lose an axemen to a marauding archer (in the first battle one of my axemen killed a warrior).

Ankara completes its worker and begins work on an axeman. Istanbul completes the oracle and begins work on a worker (I lost two mines and a farm to barbs). Confucianism is founded in Edrine.

I adopt Confucianism as a state religion and undergo the first civic switch (adopting caste-system). Two turns of anarchy later, I am ready to resume growth.

In 1000BC, the listing of biggest civilizations is published and Immaculate’s Ottomans are third.

In 975, Istanbul reaches it maximum size. I assign between 3 and 4 merchants in the hopes of beating the prophet points being generated. I want it to birth a merchant to light-bulb metal-casting. This has the secondary effect of allowing me to return to 100% science. The screenshot shows the pyramids but I actually started to build a settler instead.

http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t206/Immacu-lattte/ALC15-001.jpg

Iron-working completes and the island contains iron but not really in a useful spot. I set research to mathematics. The next great person (here’s to hoping it’s a great merchant) will arrive prior to its arrival so if it is a great merchant it will light-bulb metal-casting and not currency.

In 745BC, Andrew Carnegie is born in Istanbul and is immediately used to light-bulb metal-casting. I should mention that I set all six points of Istanbul’s population to merchants for the last two turns, and starved the city down to size five. I will regrow it to size six prior to continuing production of the settler (while building the pyramids at max food).

Eridine produces a settler (to be sent to found a city near the horses and sugar) and I assign two scientists. This scientist will be used, hopefully, to light-bulb machinery. Until I light-bulb that tech (which requires that I finish math and alphabet first), I can’t research fishing.

Bursa is founded and I assign an artist specialist. He will be assigned only so long as I need him to pop the borders. Bursa begins by building a granary.

In 460BC, Konya is founded near the stone. Three workers are already in place building a road on the stone itself prior to its founding and once it is founded a quarry is put into place. With this stone, Istanbul begins work on the pyramids. It has 4 mines, stone, and mathematics for efficient chopping. With the pyramids and representation, the greatest problem for growth (happiness) will be solved without paying an arm and a leg for massive numbers of military police. The increased research won’t hurt either.

Ankara builds a settler which is dispatched to the gold site. This will help with any immediate happiness problems, especially in conjunction with forges from metal-casting.

When Konya’s borders pop the archer-guarded hut is popped and it reveals a map. Now I can see more ocean… that rocks!!!

Samsum is founded and again, an artist is assigned to pop the borders. This city will get gold online and help with happiness issues. Unfortunately, it can’t build a fishing boat until I pop a scientist and light-bulb machinery.

So as to allow the scientist to light-bulb machinery, I need to research alphabet so when mathematics is complete, I assign our wise-men to learn the alphabet.

I lose another axemen to a barb archer. I’ve had some pretty bad luck with barbs this game, but at least things are starting to come together nicely despite a few minor skirmishes that have gone badly.

In 235BC, Tacitus publishes his great work and reveals that we are the largest civilization.

In 175BC, Istanbul completes the pyramids and begins work on a hamman so as to build the hanging gardens. After some anarchy, my science output increases by 9 beakers due to assigned scientists in Edrine and the happiness cap is lifted across the entire kingdom. This impresses me and I assign scientists in Ankara too (I will need a scientist for optics either way).

10BC arrives and that seems like a good time to finish up for tonight. This game has already been interrupted a few times tonight and its sort of amazing I got as far as I did.

I am running 40% science but have employed six scientists who are, together, generating 36 beakers due to representation.

Here’s a look at the empire and the three largest cities. I am third in manufactoring, 4th in crop production and 1st in land. Otherwise i am last in all categories (including GNP).


http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t206/Immacu-lattte/ALC15-002.jpg

http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t206/Immacu-lattte/ALC15-003.jpg

http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t206/Immacu-lattte/ALC15-004.jpg

http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t206/Immacu-lattte/ALC15-005.jpg


Anyway, I will add more when I play more.

Early/Middle Game 10BC-650AD:

I should mention that I know that we are in need of optics to reach other continents despite the presence of another landmass to the northeast of our island; I read the Mehmed spoiler thread when posting the first instalment. So this will affect game play unnaturally a bit.

In 5AD, alphabet completes, and I decide we have enough time to research a few techs before preparing for optics. There is 10 turns until we develop machinery (or can start researching fishing, sailing and compass), which means we can divert research towards other goals in the short term. I therefore decide to pursue organized religion. The production bonus is nothing to sneeze at and the organized trait means running expensive civics is actually more beneficial relative to without this trait.

With organized religion completed, I set research to civil service. I don’t intend to finish it promptly, but I will need it for later and I can’t research towards optics quite yet.

In 95AD, after pulling most of my measly military police from their respective cities (mostly axemen), I take the barb city to the west of the empire and burn it to the ground (I didn’t like the placement).
In 140AD, the great scientist, Al-Kwarzihmi, is born and light-bulbs machinery. Research is reset towards fishing, sailing and compass. Edrine can now focus on production and growth.

In 230AD, the Hanging Gardens are completed in Istanbul.

Afterwards, I focus on REXing the island. I found seven more cities in quick succession, using the artist trick to widen borders where necessary.

In 635AD, Rene Descartes is born and used to light-bulb optics. I immediately change production in two of the coastal cities to caravels. I should mention that this is a bit later then I would have hoped, and I am sure others could have gotten here faster, but I personally, don’t know exactly how do to do that. Obviously it would have been faster with a philosophical civ or if I had had marble for the Parthenon.

In 650AD, I complete the colonization of the main island.

I decide to stop play here for a bit.

Missionary-laden caravels are just around the corner and I will soon be able to investigate the rest of the world. Research is a bit slow right now with all the small cities which are not contributing specialists to the empire’s economy, but that will change with the production of workers and the development of the surrounding lands. The expansion phase is at its plateau which means that the economy can only get better.

Here’s a look at our lands and at the demographics. It’s the first time I’ve ever been in first place for life expectancy. I guess that’s probably based on the fact that we haven’t ever whipped a single building.

I've never ever played a pure SE before this game so its sort of interesting. My GNP is -19... Thats funny.


http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t206/Immacu-lattte/ALC15-006.jpg

http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t206/Immacu-lattte/ALC15-007.jpg

Did you settle on your Hunting/Scout option before you knew you were on an island? Have you done this gambit before in other games?

If you are going to stay in an SE, do you plan to bee line for Pacifism? It would be a great civic with so few military units to pay for.

How are you funding the cost of so many small cities?

Congratulations on the rapid and efficient settlement of this large island.

I have done the hunting/scouting option before, but i must admit that i had read the main Mehmed thread which showed the main island being isolated, so yes, that influenced my decision (which it could not have for Sisitul of course).

Don't know about Pacifism yet... i like organized for the production boost but you are right, pacifism would be appropriate.
EDIT: Like i said, this is my first real attempt at a pure SE, so i don't really know exactly how to do it very well. I think once i meet other civs and trade for meditation, i can get a few monastaries built for the spread of Confucianism and at that point it would be worth shifting gears probably.

I am not really funding them yet. I am at 20% science. I have courthouses in the older cities though. Research is purely through specialists.
EDIT: I was at 0% science for a bit and had to fund maintenance through merchant specialists. That was scary.

I'm not really so sure it was that rapid; i am sure others would have done it more quickly/efficiently then i did. For example, i don't have enough workers to develop the land so most of the new cities only have 0-1 improved tiles to work with. Hopefully that will change now that i don't need to spit out settlers.

In a pure SE, any extra gold you have is put into the Cultural slider. The increased happiness leads to a larger pop and more specialists.

1869 spaceship win. score 24k.

The start 4000bc-100bc.
Settled in place. Popped mining from a hut, researched pottery while building a worker then put cottages on the riverside sugar tiles.
Research then went BW, AH, mysticism (so I could get culture in new city),fishing. Founded Edirne in 2590 around rice/clams sw of Istanbul.

By 2000 bc it was looking like total isolation on a big island with barbs likely to be a major problem. Switched to hunting, archery and spent the next thousand years building warriors and archers to fogbust. On the whole it worked quite well, lost a couple of warriors but nowhere got pillaged.

It also seemed likely that I wasn't going to see any tech trading for a long time so I was going to fall well behind. There was plenty of land but limited resources so even with hammans city size would be limited. I decided that the long term objective was to pack the island with smallish cities thinking that organised trait would keep expenses manageable. For this I was going to need courthouses sooner rather than later, building fogbusters meant I couldn't build Oracle so I was going to have to research CoL the long way.

These decisions basically determined the rest of the round. I didn't need alphabet but wanted writing for libraries to run for a GS, I also wanted IW to cut down jungles (and locate iron). Tech path was IW, writing, meditation, priest and CoL. I finally got CoL in 115bc and as an unexpected bonus got to found confucianism in the process. The next round of city builds was delayed by fogbusting but I built Ankara 850bc (north east iron,cows), Bursa 460 bc (north west fishes,cows) and Konya 250bc (south copper).
Edit: Fogbusting wasn't perfect as I was more concerned with avoiding FoW near my cities than covering the whole island so a barb city (Bulgar) got established on the gold/stone site about 700bc

http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g166/pigswill-2006/alc14a0000-1.jpg

At this stage I was running research at 30%, generating 18 beakers/turn @+1gpt. Hopefully growth and courthouses would improve that figure.


Home Alone 100bc-1000ad.
Not surprisingly this was a quiet set. Basically expansion, building as many cities as I could afford. Got a GS in 70bc who established an academy in Istanbul in an attempt to boost research. Essentially went for cheaper techs so I wouldn't have to trade for them later (and opened up more expensive techs for later trading as well). Taoism was founded in 605ad but not by me. Techs: maths, masonry, monarchy (500ad, revolt to HR), polytheism, monotheism (695ad revolt to OR as I'd been spreading confucianism), sailing 800ad, started CS (unfinished).

The economy was struggling:
http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g166/pigswill-2006/alc14g.jpg

I captured the barb city in about 700ad (losing three swords in the process!) and that was the end of the barbarian presence. I'd built a few more cities and had some settlers in place for when I could afford next round of cities:
http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g166/pigswill-2006/alc14f.jpg

Neighbours. 1000-1400ad.
The round started off fairly quiet. I built a few more cities. Popped a GS for philosophy in 1055ad, hoping it would provide trade material. Finished researching CS in 1184 and switched to bureaucracy.

Then the neighbours started turning up (I can't remember in which order). Fortunately philosophy had been kept back as a monopoly tech so I was able to trade it freely because I was in no position to be aiming for liberalism. Between 1200 and 1400 by a mixture of trade and research I picked up feudalism, alphabet, currency, MC, calendar, machinery, HBR, construction, compass and guilds.

I'd started building longbows once I'd got feudalism and had been heading towards gunpowder for UU when I diverted to banking for mercantilism. I'd kept borders closed because I didn't see any point in the AI having trade routes with me before I could have trade routes with them. Monte varied between cautious and annoyed depending on who I was trading with. I'd switched to NSR when AIs started turning up because I'm a wimp like that.

A few more towns:
http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g166/pigswill-2006/alc14h0000.jpg

http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g166/pigswill-2006/alc14j0000.jpg

Despite that the economy was starting to improve:
http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g166/pigswill-2006/alc14i0000.jpg

I was running a cottage economy because specialist economy is still too clever for me. Obviously democracy would be jolly helpful but there were other priorities (defence and trade principally) just to confuse things.

EDIT: I was at 0% science for a bit and had to fund maintenance through merchant specialists. That was scary.

In another game with Mehmed I was trying to go for Gunpowder but had Ivory so I thought a bit of early(er) war would be in order. Well, when I was first attacking I hadn't finished Code of Laws, I didn't have a single Market up, and was running deficit at 0% science... Luckily I got Code of Laws, pillaged some enemy tiles (otherwise I was at 0 gold the next turn) and switched to Caste System for Merchants. Yey for Anarchy! (how often do you hear that?!) For a while there I thought I'd see my units disbanded while advancing toward enemy cities. Would have been no fun, no fun at all.

After that, I planted courthouses everywhere. You'd be surprised how much it costs to keep a decent sized captured city! And the thing is, the more cities you capture and keep, the farther they usually are from your capital, meaning more maintenance. So while courthouses are useful in close cities too, check out the far ones to see if they couldn't use a courthouse too. And remember, they're cheap since you're organized.

Also, if you want to use Bureaucracy at its maximum, you'll have to cottage the capital. High upkeep shouldn't matter again because of the organized trait.

We Demand Emancipation. 1400ad-1667ad.

Having discovered banking in 1400 I immediately switched to mercantilism and caste system. My immediate tech aims were gunpowder (defence), astronomy and economics (trade routes) before heading off to democracy. Got a GS in 1442 who helped towards education (1478), then gunpowder in 1514 and started building some janisseries, next GS turned up in 1532 leading to a temporary diversion to PP(1541) before picking up astronomy (1562) and economics (1580). At this point I opened up my borders and revolted to free market. By a fortunate coincidence the AIs were switching out of mercantilism at the same time so trade routes provided a substantial boost to the economy.
http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g166/pigswill-2006/alc14k0000.jpg

Then it was a straight beeline to democracy: liberalism (1601) (switched to free religion), nationalism (1622), constitution (1637) and democracy (1658). Switched to emancipation in 1661 though stayed in HR and bureaucracy. The cities were still growing, universities and observatories were beginning to appear. The economy continued to improve:
http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g166/pigswill-2006/alc14l0000.jpg

However to remind me just how badly I was trailing Cat went and built the Kremlin in 1649 :eek: .
http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g166/pigswill-2006/alc14m0000.jpg

Foreign affairs remained surprisingly quiet. At some point Monte demanded sugar from me (the only item of value I had for him) and not being in a position to refuse I agreed (and quietly cancelled the deal when I remembered about it later). Cyrus declared on Fred leading to a speedy capitulation and that was it. A few cautious AIs and a few pleased AIs seperated by ocean led to a peaceful life.


The Internet for Dummies 1667ad-1814ad.

At the beginning of this round it had began to sink in that even though the economy was improving and was likely to improve further with emancipation I was still a long way behind on research. The Internet beckoned as the way to catch up and that's what determined tech path for the round.
Tech trading proved very useful in narrowing the gap. Steel (1694) got traded for corporation and scimeth. Electricity (1740) got traded for communism and steam power. Radio (1758) got traded for artillery and railroad. I was first to rocketry in 1770 much to my surprise and that got traded for biology, AL and combustion. I got a GS in 1792 who helped lightbulb fission (1798) which I later traded for MT and mass media and then traded mass media and fission for plastics in 1814. Ironically by the point I was able to research fibre optics for the Internet I no longer needed it because I'd caught up techwise in the process :lol: .
http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g166/pigswill-2006/alc14p0000.jpg

I'd been running the economy at a slight profit and using the money to upgrade units as I went along (LBs and Jans to rifles). I popped a GM in 1738 that got sent on a trade mission (completed in 1770) and I immediately spent the cash on a major upgrade from rifles to infantry. Despite this my power rating was still pathetic and if anyone had seriously decided to invade me then it would have been game over. Maybe it had a slight deterrent effect, maybe it just helped me feel I was doing something. In the event peace prevailed, AIs generally got friendlier and I felt a bit more secure when Cat offered me a DP in 1760 (which I readily accepted).

Cities were growing slowly. One minor benefit of running several (relatively) small cities was that they generally kept below health caps (aided naturally by expansive's +2 health) so I was able to build forges, factories, coal plants and labs as they became available.
http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g166/pigswill-2006/alc14r0000.jpg

GNP continued to grow and beakers/turn followed along. This was aided considerably by switching to SP, US and FS in 1808 (something I should really have done earlier).
http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g166/pigswill-2006/alc14q0000.jpg

http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g166/pigswill-2006/alc14s0000.jpg

Overall by the end of this set I was beginning to feel comfortable for the first time in the game.



Home run 1814ad-1869ad.


This was a very quiet period of the game. I built a few more infantry and a few tanks and also got a DP with Cyrus in 1840 to keep things peaceful. I built Scotland Yard and deployed spies to my main production centres for counter-espionage. I won the fusion race and used the GE for my first and only wonder (space elevator). I made my usual mess of the space race and had actually completed the rest of the spaceship before I'd even finished researching genetics for stasis chamber which pushed the win date back by about ten turns. On the other hand even though the AIs were also going for space no-one really threatened, the closest was Cat who'd built five casings, a couple of thrusters and cockpit when I launched.

http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g166/pigswill-2006/alc14t.jpg

http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g166/pigswill-2006/alc14u.jpg


Afterthoughts
I've been keeping an eye of the real ALC15 and I did a few things different [Edit: I should clarify that I'd played my sets well before Sisiutil did and so this really is an unspoiled version.] Instead of going for Oracle I put more effort into early fogbusting which I think paid off in terms of early research. Researching basic techs and catching up with philosophy certainly helped in the middle game. I think building cities to make use of more of the tiles on the island is worth doing, though without organised trait this would have been more expensive. I'm wondering if I should have gone for the Internet and not done so much trading, obviously it helped me but it helped the AI as well and if I'd built Internet I'd have got all their techs anyway.
I'm sure that a better player could have won this game at least a hundred years earlier but at least its a win.
I'm certainly confident that Sisiutil can catch up techwise with or without the Internet but it will be interesting to see how he does it.

__________________

continued from post #9 (april 17th)


Middle/End Game 650AD-1565AD:

So, I stand corrected. I am not running at 20% science. I am running at 0% science. Not only that, but I am losing money at 0% science. Here’s a quick look:

http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t206/Immacu-lattte/ALC15-008.jpg

So, that’s sort of scary… but its not the end of the world. I go around, city to city and assign merchants where I can. I employ a total of 6 merchants (and one engineer and one artist) and finally come to -1gpt at 0% science. This will let me continue for another six turns approximately and which point I will have to come up with another solution. Here’s a look a the financial advisor after making these changes.

http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t206/Immacu-lattte/ALC15-009.jpg

In the following years, the economy runs at 0% science for a long time and the only thing that moves the beaker count is the beakers produced from running merchants under representation.

I focus on spitting out the required workboats and workers and work on granaries and courthouses between worker builds to allow growth.

Caravels are launched to go make contact with the unknown civilizations.

In 785, I finally make contact with a new civilization, the Vikings led by Ragnar. Ragnar practices Christianity but is not the founder of the religion.

In 800AD, Henry Ford, a great engineer is born in Istanbul.

In 815, Monty comes to our shores. He is practicing Buddhism but has not founded the religion. In the same year, our ships meet with Frederick. He too practices Christianity but is not the founder. We have an opportunity to trade techs (we have compass which he doesn’t have), but I hold off on trading with him for now.

In 845AD, we meet the founder of Christianity and trade him machinery for: the rest of civil service, currency, and meditation. Research is set to paper. The same year we also meet the founder of Hinduism, Capac who refuses to open borders with me (or trade techs- you sure? I got machinery? Don’t you want some macemen buddy?)

The following turn I trade civil service to Frederick for Monarchy and Calendar. I may be able to trade my way to tech parity faster then I had expected. I still hold compass and optics over several of my competition.

In 890, we make contact with the Jewish state of Russia led by Catherine. Not surprisingly, she already knows ‘animal husbandry’.

In 920, our missionaries start to do their work when Ragnar converts to Confucianism.

In 1010, we are the first to circumnavigate the globe.

Shortly thereafter, we abandon religion and proclaim ourselves without a state religion Paradoxically, we maintain that we are organized atheist so as to continue building Confucian missionaries.

This should let us open borders with Monty so we can get some missionaries into his cities.

Once we are pagan we can trade optics to the Incans for the last of paper and drama (a useful tech for trading purposes with the other continent). Using the paper and drama I get from them, I throw in optics for Cyrus’s world map, money, theology, and literature. I could have got archery but didn’t see the point.

In 1136, Monty declares war on the Russians/Incans. I close borders with the Russians. I can’t close borders with the Incans because our treaty is to recent.

When Catherine asks for help in destroying the Aztecs, I have to refuse her. If Monty asks, I will accept. I have chosen my friends. Shortly thereafter, I get impatient and declare on Catherine anyway. I want to build up some mutual military struggle.

In the same year, I trade Drama, Paper and Theology to Frederick for Engineering and his cash. I immediately use Henry Ford to hurry the Hagia Sophia.

Frederick converts to Confucianism (only 2 missionaries required).

In 1272, it seems everyone gets education (one turn before I do). I don’t have philosophy yet and most of the other civs do, so I burn a scientist on printing press (required to get to mass media anyway) and finish up researching that tech. No one has printing press yet so I should be able to get a nice bundle of techs for it if I can get to it first. I really want to win this liberalism race and get overseas trade routes first. I have maximised my specialists… We will see if it works out.

The Vikings get Astronomy first and I trade them copper (I have iron) for corn and 7gpt.

Monty demands Education and since everyone else has it except for Ragnar, I trade it for him (he is finally willing to trade now) for philosophy, feudalism and some cash. Sorry, not interested in your dirty archery.

I get beat to Liberalism by two turns. DAMN THAT CATHERINE!!!

Now that I can afford a bit of anarchy and I have built some monasteries, I switch to pacifism/mercantilism and Confucianism. I also bribe Monty to become an organized religion prior to doing so. I want to flood him with missionaries while I can and theology is hampering my efforts. I have already gifted him 3 missionaries but he doesn’t seem to be using them.

Once I finally finish researching liberalism (I slowed research down considerably when everyone else got astronomy and I got many more happiness resources so that I could grow), I traded it away to Ragnar and Frederick to stop them from trading with Catherine. While this may not last, it does ensure that they probably won’t vote for her when the time comes.

In 1442, against considerable odds, a great prophet is born in Istanbul This actually serves me well since I had spread Confucianism considerably in my attempt to win over allies for a diplomatic win. He builds the shrine and I set to work backing it with a market, bank, and grocer.

In 1446 a publication arrives stating that we are the biggest nation, followed by the Russians. This is perfect for diplomatic purposes.

Monty comes around to the Confucian line of thinking just as Ragnar drops it in favour of free religion. I need to flood him with more missionaries and ask him to rejoin the fold (adopting pacifism for example). The change to free religion has also driven a wedge between him and Frederick which is leading to ‘you have traded with our worst enemies’ demerits for me (despite the fact that they are trading with each other).
Frederick soon joins him in free religion. Is it possible to get them both back into the religious fold?

In 1529, I receive another great person, an engineer; I will save him for the united nations I believe.

In 1544, I finally finish up research on scientific method and set research to physics. Its true what they say about SEs in regards to larger techs, they do tend to bog down considerably. Fifteen turns for scientific method. Now that I have a tech that no one else has, I decide to see what I can get for it. I trade it to Cyrus for nationalism and I trade it to Frederick for replaceable parts. Lastly, I trade liberalism and scientific method to Monty for war with Cyrus. With nationalism in hand, I assume the nationhood civic for the happiness bonus. This will become important when I cut all ties with Cyrus and refuse his dyes.

I can’t seem to get Ragnor or Frederick to return to Confucianism (even though every Viking city has Confucianism in it- “that would go against everything they stand for”).

At this point I have to stop for the night.

Here’s a few visual descriptions of where we are:

Our island:
http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t206/Immacu-lattte/ALC15-010.jpg

Our domestic advisor:
http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t206/Immacu-lattte/ALC15-011.jpg

You’ll notice that some of the build times are really huge. This is because the city’s population has maxed out and I have set it to maximum specialists. I have a total of 49 specialist (all but 3 are scientists) employed across the empire.

http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t206/Immacu-lattte/ALC15-012.jpg
I am trying to get Frederick and Ragnar and Frederick and Monty to stop fighting. To do this, I want to convert them all to Confucianism. I have many of their cities converted (all of both Ragnar and Monty) but obviously some are still in free religion.

So, I don’t think it will be too difficult to get to mass media and build the UN (I have an engineer hoarded up), but it will be hard to get the votes. I just need to make Cyrus and Catherine a common enemy to all.

Power-wise, I am still second-last (Capac is last), but I am not too worried. I have been keeping Catherine and now Cyrus busy with proxy wars.


Anyone got any bright ideas on how i can get fred to make nice with Ragnar and vice-versa and how to win both of them over to +8 (so they vote for me).

oh, this is the game that made you wonder about "that would go against ..." in that other thread! i remembered after replying to that one that i did once get mansa to change back to whichever religion after he went to free religion. he's spiritual and he went back to free religion not all that long later. the little sneak, doesn't he know that's my trick, making just a temporary change for the +modifier? anyway, i know that it is possible to get them to go back to being a believer in something even after they've seen the FR light. i do not recall whether it was redlined for a time in his case, or whether i've done it (or even tried) in other cases. quite often i don't put the "adopt FR" option up for UN vote simply because whatever religious factions still exist are helping me out.

"Anyone got any bright ideas on how i can get fred to make nice with Ragnar and vice-versa and how to win both of them over to +8 (so they vote for me)."

you may already know this, but +8 sometimes isn't enough. a total of +8 is all that you need, provided that they don't rank your opponent even higher. but there are invisible modifiers that you can't see. this thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=145865) has good information about that, particularly ori's posts.

you can often force civics changes by adding them to a peace treaty. of course that involves being at war with the leader, which kind of doesn't go with the goal of becoming better friends, so i'd not really advise it. had to type it tho since it made me giggle.

Thanks that helps. I think i have to sustain the same resource trade for as long as possible. Otherwise i am sort of stuck. I'll keep spamming missionaried to freddy though, see if he will adopt Confucianism or if its also 'against everything he stands for'.

Immac.

Immaculate: who's the biggest civ in your game (and of course your likely UN opponent)?

I am biggest :)
Catherine is second.
Cyrus is third
Then Monty
Then Rag & Fred
then little ol' Capo Cupac.

Maybe its worth running the culture slider for more specialists...? Would that have a net positive or negative effect on my research rate?

I can build the UN on that little island with the engineer and some cash if i do the US thing for a turn and then gift that town to anyone i want. I could make Cupac the opponent if thats a good idea- just not sure if it is or not... Cathy doens't have too many friends anyway 'cause she keeps fighting with Monty (and me) and we are so beloved :)

I think whoever builds the UN stays a candidate. It doesn't matter if you gift/lose the city it was built in.

I think whoever builds the UN stays a candidate. It doesn't matter if you gift/lose the city it was built in.

no, it's whoever controls the city that has the UN, when the vote for secretary general comes up. i don't know what happens when ownership of that city changes hands during the term of the secretary. i do know for sure that gifting the UN city away to the civ you want to be your rival does in fact guarantee that they're up for the vote.

Ok, didn't know that. In that case you can only gift it to Fred, since he has a city there and will have some cultural overlap with your city. Other civs won't want the city.

By the way, KMad, what happens when someone razes the UN city?

By the way, KMad, what happens when someone razes the UN city?

i cry. no actually, i don't really know!

i cry. no actually, i don't really know!

Cry my friend.... If you raze UN city, UN doesn't go away :confused: :mad: :lol: . You still have those annoying popups asking for your vote :suicide: ( I've tried to stop the 300 Kg gorilla of one of my games to win diplomatically razing the UN city some time ago... didn't work [pissed] )

But who is the "default" candidate? The one who built the UN? The one who owned the UN before it being razed? The one who did the razing?

I really don't recall..... the save is gone too.

darn barbs
i quit after my gold city got razed by a single archer (the guy killed 3 defensively placed warriors!)

Was an interesting Monarch game, the fact that the AI was way ahead of Us.

I decided to see if I could keep up in tech by Beelining to Optics, using GS lightbulbs. 1 for Machinery and 1 for Optics. Got Optics around 815 AD, met everyone except HC by 1000AD... later realized he was eliminated from the game by Monty and Cathy Combination.

I Could keep up in the game is probably because I picked up Monarchy very early and mass produced warriors in my capital while I Was growing it incredibly fast working cottages. Z

Never finish the game, Because I could keep up in tech.

The game is certainly winnable if you mass grow your cities , play it nice diplomatically and keep a nice fleet.

I also played out Sisuitil's 4000 BC save going for Astronomy, just to see how much difference foreign trade routes would help an isolated economy.

To summarize, i went with a heavy CE with scientists. Oracle for COL. 1st 4 GPeople were scientists. 1st for Philo (switched to pacifism right away) in 110 AD, 2nd & 3rd on Astronomy in 815 AD (needed a switch to caste system in 650 AD for timing), and 4th on Education. Won Liberalism race in 1238.

Got lucky with wonders, built both in ankara to keep a pure Scientist pool in capital (ankara founded 1150 BC, Oracle right away). Oracle in 730 BC and then HG in 425 AD.

Got lucky with the progress of the other civs (quite a few wars on both continents). I think 4 civs DIDNT have COL in the 900s AD. I had Astronomy, some COL and maybe machinery here and there on them, and they all went down the feudalism/guilds path on me. I got Monarchy and some junk from my first contact, a Vassalized Huyana, but after that I wouldn't trade nothing. Finally after Democracy I opened up to get Banking for Corporation purposes. My AIs were weak, and their wars were a reason for that. I met Ragnar to find him at war with cyrus ad fred. Cathy attacked Huyana who vassalized to Monty, although a couple centuries after peace. Later, Monty attacked Cyrus, and then everyone attacked Freddie. I went Free Religion and played nice.

Got Lucky with Liberalism, took Nationalism and beelined to Democracy. and then on to a sloppy space.

As far as Astronomy goes, it helped, but maybe not as much as I thought. I wonder if two academies would get a quicker victory. But it did have its benefits. After Optics and Calender I went Currency and halfway through Currency I got the 2nd GS for Astronomy. Finished Currency, then CS, paper and Education w/ 4th GS. But here's the thing. I got my Observatories in before Education, so I could go right on to Univerisities. And Observatories are cheaper too. Another thing for Astronomy is you get first pick of everyone's resources. The extra dye, wine, silk and gems i got on this start was the biggest help. I originally planned to include Monarchy early on but I found that with Confusionist temples, forges and especially the Hamman, I could afford to head straight to Astronomy with size 10 cities in the mid ADs. Trade routes helped some, but i should have kept better notice to get exact numbers. I should play out my 815 save a hundred years to know exactly what they add. But it was the Observatories and resources that helped the most. Later Trade route were huge (as they always are), but hey, every little bit helps.

I also got lucky diplomatically as no one declared on me. The power graph below is pathetic, but I did whatever Monty and Cathy said, except fight in their wars. But i tend to find these things easy to predict and manipulate, especially if everyone hates frederick.

I could've played the end a little tighter and probably should've laid some more cities down and faster, but oh well. Should've had more workers too. Whatever...

Space in 1876
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/104782/Civ4ScreenShot0005.JPG

GNP graph
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/104782/Civ4ScreenShot0003.JPG

and power
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/104782/Civ4ScreenShot0004.JPG

The save just after Astronomy
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/104782/Sisiutil_AD-0815.CivWarlordsSave

1352
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/104782/Sisiutil_AD-1352.CivWarlordsSave

And a turn after victory
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/104782/Sisiutil_AD-1876.CivWarlordsSave

slaze: how did you deal with the early barbs?

Immaculate: any updates on SE diplomacy?

I got Edirne out pretty quick, 2580 BC, so I knew I had some time. I gambled and built/chopped a monument first instead of the axeman. I had warriors busting by the NW lake, one on the desert hill in the south and another by the river rice in the middle. The turn before Edirne's borders popped an Archer appeared right between it and the capital, and it went on to pillage two sugar farms. I could've whipped an axeman right away, but my granary was almost done, so i let it finish and then whipped. But after Edirne and then Istanbul's third pop the west was sealed and i could look east.

I got lucky though. I don't think i saw an axeman at all. Also The barb city spawned pretty quick and I didn't see too much action after that. I think one lowly warrior came outta the fish desert

But having two axemen by 2000 BC makes things alot more tolerable.

Immaculate: any updates on SE diplomacy?

Realistically, CIV won't be available for me for about 10-12 days (after that i'll play it).
I.

Well played slaze, I thought this position was winnable. These games often turn on a little bit of good luck at the start or maybe just the absence of bad luck which others had on this map. Looking at your savegames, you took an approach I would never have adopted. :) Beelining for Astronomy before Liberalism is radical and interesting but like you (with the benefit of hindsight) I doubt whether it was really worth the trouble, although the observatories sure are nice. Going for Liberalism earlier would open up Paper (Uni of Sangkore?... with stone) and Education (universities and OU) would probably have been just as good at boosting research. I guess Free Speech would boost output more than anything given you have several towns. Getting Free Religion before contact with the other civs should help with diplomacy.

In 1385 AD when you get Liberalism I would be tempted to change civics to Slavery and Free Speech and then increase the number of workers so the jungle can be chopped and chain irrigate. Having 10 cities and only 5 workers is a major limitation on expansion rate of your cities including the new ones you've founded. At that stage Slavery is the quickest way to crank out the 2 or 3 settlers and 10 workers :eek: you need, plus the troops to take the barbarian city. Several cities need infrastructure and you need universities for OU. But forget my criticisms, thanks for sharing an interesting game.

So, i got a chance to finish up that game. I got a diplomatic victory in 1774AD but i'll post the details after some sleep.
I made some stupid mistakes (bee-line biology first in the future) but the dipomatic manipulation was pretty fun. It had the added benefit of allowing me to ignore WFYBTA with a few civs, thus enabling some much better trading. Emancipation hurt happiness but 100% commerce helped more. By the end every single viking, german or aztec city practiced confucianism (never did get wall street for my shrine though) but strangely enough, only Monty was in free religion.