So I got the chronicles pack the other day.
If you got it too, you know there is a DVD with videos included, one of which is about the design of Civ4, were Soren Jensen states they started from scratch with it and used no part of the previous code.

So that would mean that it's more or less useless to them. I'm wondering if we could ask for the source now and is there any obstacle towards this direction? Maybe some of the people left here could help in getting what is needed(bugs fixing, enabling inactive stuff etc.)

So that modding and creators are helped in their work especially with things missing(We all know there's a huge list of those, as listed in the thread when we thought they are going to relese another expansion to Civ3)

I'd say in about 8 years :)

Youz got shiny code! You not need! Give! Please, please, we make sacrifice for you! Cats taste good.

I'd say in about 8 years :)


Why so? They've even gone 3d so they haven't kept any part or look of it.
Unless they plan to do an expansion or at least relesease a patch, I don't see why(and the way I see it, they do focus on CIV primarily now, so).

Hm, unless you mean the same happened with civ 2? Haven't checked those forums for a long time.

Youz got shiny code! You not need! Give! Please, please, we make sacrifice for you! Cats taste good.

I hope that's not a typo and you're not sacrificing Cata. ;)

To my knowledge, they haven't let loose the Civ2 source code yet.
I can't see them ever releasing the source code. It doesn't strike me as the type of thing a company does in the business, based on past precedent.

I guess it's simply Sugar Candy Mountain.

On the other hand, if they are willing to release the source code for a current game (civ4), why not one that's almost 6 years old?

I hope that's not a typo and you're not sacrificing Cata. ;)Well, Cata can be the first sacrificial Romanian... :evil:

To my knowledge, they haven't let loose the Civ2 source code yet.
I can't see them ever releasing the source code. It doesn't strike me as the type of thing a company does in the business, based on past precedent.

I guess it's simply Sugar Candy Mountain.

From what I remember in a thread not too long back, some Take2 guy (I think) stated that they can't release the Civ2 source code due to it not being all in the one place, or lost in the change of companies, I forget which, but basically, they physically cannot give us the Civ2 source code...:(

The Civ3 code, however... we can dream...:rolleyes:

That is for Civ2. Be that as it may. I have yet to encounter one positive indication as to Civ3, though.

Dreams. Dreams are for children and lovers.

I doubt they even have it anymore.

I believe that the source for Civ 2 was lost between Microprose and Activision, and I wouldn't bet against the source for Civ 3 having been lost between Firaxis and Atari and whoever owns them now.

The precedent for releasing the code is Call to Power II, the source for which was released to the community. I still see CtP II on the shelves of game stores - which must mean that it is still selling. Considering that the game came out before Civ 3 I would argue that the source release must have improved the sales and the longievity of the game.

If the code was made available but required the disc to use then i'd warrant that sale would improve exponentially.And it still wouldn't rival the CIV sales, so it's not a threat, but it'd still get them some extra cash. I can only see it as win-win. I don't know why they don't release it.

I can't see exponential sales growth. The target market is, in the end, quite small and limited to a dedicated group of modders. I'd wager that many Civ3 owners are not really pining for it, nor even give it consideration.

It would be great and all that, but the devil needs his advocate. In this case, a market release wouldn't be worth it, and I can't see them releasing another add-on pack for Civ3 with all the focus on Civ 4 and subsequent developments.

Until there is some indication of real movement from the quarters that need it on this issue, then all the threads, petitions, letters and appeals in the world will continue to bring the same result.

Having a game still selling, or at least available on a limited basis does not necessarily speak to the release of the source code. I still see copies of Age of Empires II and games of a similar vintage out and about when I fly back to the city out of the wilderness.


I can't say conclusively why it isn't released, but in their shoes, I'd probably do the same. There simply isn't the demand to make such a venture rewarding and profitable.

I'm wondering if we could ask for the source now and is there any obstacle towards this direction? Maybe some of the people left here could help in getting what is needed(bugs fixing, enabling inactive stuff etc.)

So that modding and creators are helped in their work especially with things missing(We all know there's a huge list of those, as listed in the thread when we thought they are going to relese another expansion to Civ3)

Mybe you havn't seen the Petition for Civ3's Source Code?

If you skip to the end you'll see that Ozy the writer is are best bet to unleash the potential for the greatest strategy game ever.

I think the word you're looking for is "probability". And the probability is good it will be released a decade from now.

EDIT! - Aaaargh - I mistook 2K for Take Two games! My Bad! Ignore everything below! - Oz

EDIT 2! - Aaaargh - I just discovered "2K Games is headquartered in Manhattan and is a wholly owned subsidiary of Take-Two Interactive Software, Inc." So forget, "Aaaargh" #1. :(

OK, BAD NEWS. (http://www.forbes.com/markets/2007/04/05/taketwo-videogame-updatetwo-markets-equity-cx_jl_0405markets36.html)

I won't unnecessarily repost this in each of the - 3? 4? - threads inciting us all to hope for a new editor and/or source code release.

Having spent much time (far too much time) in corporate America, I can assure everyone that - given the article from Forbes linked to above - our desires wouldn't even be a blip on their radar screen.

Sorry. I did everything I could.

-Oz

So... There is a slight chance of the code being released?

So... There is a slight chance of the code being released?

My apologies for the confusion (see my editted post above) but I'd say our chances are nil for the forseeable future. :(

Sorry,

Oz

EDIT! - Aaaargh - I mistook 2K for Take Two games! My Bad! Ignore everything below! - Oz

EDIT 2! - Aaaargh - I just discovered "2K Games is headquartered in Manhattan and is a wholly owned subsidiary of Take-Two Interactive Software, Inc" So go back to, "Aaaargh" #1. :(

OK, BAD NEWS. (http://www.forbes.com/markets/2007/04/05/taketwo-videogame-updatetwo-markets-equity-cx_jl_0405markets36.html)

I won't unnecessarily repost this in each of the - 3? 4? - threads inciting us all to hope for a new editor and/or source code release.

Having spent much time (far too much time) in corporate America, I can assure everyone that - given the article from Forbes linked to above - our desires wouldn't even be a blip on their radar screen.

Sorry. I did everything I could.

-Oz

What!! They all got turfed?? :eek: .... :cry:

Oh jee! I guess it wasn't meant to be.. At least its probable the guy is gone whos decision it was to go ahead with the engine frolics and the fiasco that resulted in its placement.
He's probably neting a few hundred grand to sabatoge a series elsewhere :)

I know its unreleated but I doubt the wrap up party for Civ3 was ever so dramatic. lol

Add: Forgot to thank you for trying!, thanks!

You know what I think honestly, the chances are 0% to 0.001%. It isn't very likely for us to get this source code, but we can always hope.

Well, I wish that guy who was able to edit the .exe wasn't gone - after the NoRaze patch, there was hope.

My apologies for the confusion (see my editted post above) but I'd say our chances are nil for the forseeable future. :(

Sorry,

Oz

So you are saying your "in" on the board of directors was one of the bunch fired, one of the two left from the original board, or is now on the board but won't respond to you because of all that is going on?

Not that it makes any difference.

Mybe you haven't seen the Petition for Civ3's Source Code?

If you skip to the end you'll see that Ozy the writer is are best bet to unleash the potential for the greatest strategy game ever.


I am actually aware of this thread and has posted in it. Didn't know it turned out to a petition for the code(we were just asking for a better editor and such initially). I did think of it when I was writing this one.

So Oz saying we can't expect an update. So, ok, I don't like that much Civ4, I did like what they did with it up to version C or D(in the prototyping video) and such but the finalized was version I or such.

We know they're not gonna support it. so I basically have to go CIV or nothing? Can we at least backwards engineer it or such? There must be some programmers with the knowledge around somewhere.

I know the game has been unofficially patched and the person responsible didn't go further just cause they didn't want to alter the official version much.
And practically CIV code is out there. I don't understand corporations. They could release it with a license to mod the game only or something if they're afraid someone will use it to make a great game(which they think cannot be done since they've gone 3d).

Anyway, I suppose I'm dreaming. Hope dies last and I hope a Civ3 fan programmer will do something for events at least in the long run. Off to Steph's game again I guess(after I'm done with civ3).

Thanks for the replies and updating me.

So you are saying your "in" on the board of directors was one of the bunch fired, one of the two left from the original board, or is now on the board but won't respond to you because of all that is going on?

Not that it makes any difference.

He's one of the new guys. Big media gun (I trust you'll forgive me if I don't divulge his name). This kind of scrutiny will amount to an all-hands-on-deck fire drill while investigators poke into the books (emails, etc.). I was going to give him a month or two literally to just settle in under normal circumstances; now he's part of the fire brigade (have I mangled enough metaphors yet? ;) )

-Oz

I don't understand corporations. They could release it with a license to mod the game only or something if they're afraid someone will use it to make a great game(which they think cannot be done since they've gone 3d).
[...]
Thanks for the replies and updating me.

If anyone's bothered to do a cost-benefit analysis (which I doubt, as I'm certain Civ3 is at the very bottom-most of their priorities) it probably, simply isn't even worth their time to have the requisite legal documents reviewed or written for releasing the code, let alone actually putting someone in charge of the project, acting as liaison, etc. - and all these corporate minutiae must be tended to.

No, my comrades, I'm afraid what we have is what we're going to get. That's part of the reason I started the FUBAR editor thread - to gather together our workarounds etc.

As I've said elsewhere, I am very tired up at the moment, but sometime in May will start a thread on "OzMod1" as I have a large number of ideas to try out, even though of course this will hardly give us an events capacity etc.

And - not to hold out hope, I'll see where this legal mess they're embroiled in goes and maybe go from there - but please don't figurateively hold your collective breaths.

I'm sorry I couldn't do more.

All The Best,

Oz

OK, I don`t understand fully whats going on, but I wanna thank anyone out there trying to get us the code. Not that I would know what to do with a code should I get one, but thanks anyway. Are codes edible? :hmm:

OK, I don`t understand fully whats going on, but I wanna thank anyone out there trying to get us the code. Not that I would know what to do with a code should I get one, but thanks anyway. Are codes edible? :hmm:

What's going on is an SEC investigation that could send people to prison.

-Oz

Well, we've still got SSS, and once I get the FF mod done and learn some more C# and C++, I'll see what I can do to help Steph out.

Oh, I just noticed the link to the article, missed it before so everything confused me alot. Now I`m just as confused as usual :)

We should hook up with one of the SEC guys, and he could say: "give my friends the code, and I`ll keep one eye shut." Yeah, lets try that. My plan to sleep with the entire Firaxis female staff kinda failed.

Oh, I just noticed the link to the article, missed it before so everything confused me alot. Now I`m just as confused as usual :)

We should hook up with one of the SEC guys, and he could say: "give my friends the code, and I`ll keep one eye shut." Yeah, lets try that. My plan to sleep with the entire Firaxis female staff kinda failed.
How many did you get up to before you failed? ;)

As in this thread there are some posts concerning the Civ 2 source code and the Civ 3 source code, I think it could be helpful to remember the statements, that 2K_Jason made in the "Civilization Chronicles"-thread:

a) Concerning the Civ 2 source code:

2K_Jason: Funny story. We don't actually have the source code to the first two games, so we can't release it.

The Civ franchise changed hands a lot of times (Microprose to Hasbro, Hasbro to Infogrames/Atari, then to us), and if the source code was ever involved in any of those transactions, it never made its way to us. So even if we could release the source code (and I'm not sure we ever could), we don't have it to release anyway.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=4512546&postcount=48

b) Concerning the Civ 3 source code:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=4596964&postcount=76

Originally Posted by I_batman
Can you confirm that Take-Two actually owns the source code for Civ III, and it has not been lost in some old server sitting unplugged in a damp corporate basement?

2K_Jason : I can't say that with 100% certainty, but I'm pretty sure the code does exist in some form, somewhere.

Originally Posted by I_batman
I know there have been attempts about lobbying for code before, but if Take-Two has no future plans with it, I would be very interested in discussing the future of that code with whomever controls it.

2K_Jason: In the immediate future it probably isn't feasible. There are all kinds of issues involved with releasing the code...the game uses licensed SDKs which can't be included, etc, so I don't want to get anyone's hopes up. But like I said, it's more of a possibility than any expansions for Civ 3.

5, including some non-staff twin sisters. (You`d be surprised how much secretaries don`t give a crap about Civ, they play Solitaire! And they`re bad at it! I mean, those girls really suck. At Solitaire, I mean.)

K, mr.2K_Jason, the immediate future you mentioned is long gone now, so, where iz da code?

As in this thread there are some posts concerning the Civ 2 source code and the Civ 3 source code, I think it could be helpful to remember the statements, that 2K_Jason made in the "Civilization Chronicles"-thread:

a) Concerning the Civ 2 source code:

2K_Jason: Funny story. We don't actually have the source code to the first two games, so we can't release it.

The Civ franchise changed hands a lot of times (Microprose to Hasbro, Hasbro to Infogrames/Atari, then to us), and if the source code was ever involved in any of those transactions, it never made its way to us. So even if we could release the source code (and I'm not sure we ever could), we don't have it to release anyway.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=4512546&postcount=48

b) Concerning the Civ 3 source code:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=4596964&postcount=76

Originally Posted by I_batman
Can you confirm that Take-Two actually owns the source code for Civ III, and it has not been lost in some old server sitting unplugged in a damp corporate basement?

2K_Jason : I can't say that with 100% certainty, but I'm pretty sure the code does exist in some form, somewhere.

Originally Posted by I_batman
I know there have been attempts about lobbying for code before, but if Take-Two has no future plans with it, I would be very interested in discussing the future of that code with whomever controls it.

2K_Jason: In the immediate future it probably isn't feasible. There are all kinds of issues involved with releasing the code...the game uses licensed SDKs which can't be included, etc, so I don't want to get anyone's hopes up. But like I said, it's more of a possibility than any expansions for Civ 3.

For anybody interested, on the Petition Thread of Oz (I am sure you can find it) there is an entire email trail and proposal I sent to TakeTwo many months ago. Read the email trail. The decision-makers at TakeTwo when I sent the proposal are likely gone or will soon be gone, but I fear it is irrelevant. This company has a ton of other projects/problems to deal with before they look at Civ III code.

As for the person who asked about reverse engineering the code, your best hope is Steph's project. I dreamt of hacking the code this summer, but I think I have come to my senses on that one. To take executable code and reverse the process of getting human readable source code is a nightmare, and best done by real experts. You need to disassemble the code, then delink the code, the decompile it. Frankly, I have no idea how Skyer2, the phantom, did what he did. My time is better utilized working with source code that is available in the Civ IV SDK.

Civ IV, Rocoteh's WWII-Global, and El Justo's scenarios are the only interest I have left in the entire Civ series.

As I said before, they will probably never release the source code, because as 2K_Jason said, some parts are licenced.
So I think the ONLY possibility would be for them to release part of the source code to a small group of trusted programmers, who would then update it to produce kind of mini expansions to correct a few features.
This was the model used to continue the Steel Panther series.

With such a move:
1- The licenced SDK is solved, as it's not included in the package.
2- The result would still need the conquest CD to work. So if some people find the new features interesting, there is a chance they buy additional copies of Civ3 to be able to use the expansions.
3- The responsability of coding and maintenance is transferred to the team, and is not the responsability of Firax / Take2.
4- As it's done by a group of skilled people, when enough time to test, we can have the result is of good quality, and will not cast a wrong light on the reputation of Firaxis. If it's completly free, we could have a lot of crappy expansions.
5- If it's managed correctly by a team, it will be more stable, and more compatible. If dozens of more or less skilled programmers were working on different concurrent projects, we may have some surprises at the end.
6- It would be possible to study the possible of paying expansions. If hosted on the web, no cost to generate CD or packaging, jsut download the expansion. This could generate additional income for them.

Of course, this model would need careful study, but I do think it can be worh it.

In the meanwhile, I'll continue working on SSS with Darque and Bhiita. And all the others who'd like to help.

First, because I think it's very unlikely Firaxis could at last do something. Second, we have ideas for SSS that are very far beyond what we could do with Civ3, even with the full source code. SSS is much more a new game than a new version of civ.

Unfortunately, we cannot work on it as much as we'd like... The best would perhaps be to find a wealthy investors to support the project, so we can work on it a lot more.

So here is an official call: if you know, or if you are, a wealthy would be investor, contact me!!!

Hummachmuney wetalkinbout? Immanot wealthy, or literate, butImma help if I can...

I'm not all that wealthy(and I might not contribute either), but just out of curiocity what sum are we talking about? Not the individual contributions but what you think is needed.

I'd take a wild stab in the dark and put it in the high hundreds of thousands or even over the million. I hear there is a lot of money in these Babbage machines these days.

Seriously, if we had to work on it full time with a small team, we would need about 150,000 $ / year. And that's without increasing the size of the team.
In fact, count 50,000 $ per team member working full time I think.

That means, if we can "sell" it for 15 $ as a kind of beta version, 1,000 new players every month.

To work on it one day / week, it would be 25,000 $ / year. That's roughly 150new players every month.

Once we get something playable, I think we can manage to find a way to generate income. But we need to reach that stage first.

Or course, it's just an estimation, I'm not a businessman. But if there's a specialist out there whose interested, he would probably give a better answer.

Or course, it's just an estimation, I'm not a businessman. But if there's a specialist out there whose interested, he would probably give a better answer.

Project phases & personnel requirements:

1. Conceptualization (already done by Steph)
2. Compilation of "wish list" items (can be done on these boards)
3. Division of "wish list" items into categories for AI design.
4. "Strategic AI design" (i.e., how the AI analyses the board and decides what to do).
5. "Tactical" AI design (how the AI handles, at a detailed level, "local" circumstances.
6. Movement rules design.
7. Combat rules design.
8. Graphics design.
9. Also to be considered is coordination of efforts: coding standards and (I'm presuming) Object design templates must be devised (I'm also assuming the effort would be Object Oriented, so the - I would suggest - simplest possible coding language (e.g., Visual Basic) be used.

- AND that all needs to be done before a single line of code is written.

My personnel estimate would be:
1 Project Manager (Steph)
3 AI specification designers
1+ Graphics person(s) (depends upon Steph's approach)
3-4 Programmers
Hordes of play-testers

I would give it a full year for development & testing.

Caveat: all estimates go up the more features we add to our "Wish List".


Professionally Yours,

Oz

As I said before, they will probably never release the source code, because as 2K_Jason said, some parts are licenced.
So I think the ONLY possibility would be for them to release part of the source code to a small group of trusted programmers, who would then update it to produce kind of mini expansions to correct a few features.
This was the model used to continue the Steel Panther series.

With such a move:
1- The licenced SDK is solved, as it's not included in the package.
2- The result would still need the conquest CD to work. So if some people find the new features interesting, there is a chance they buy additional copies of Civ3 to be able to use the expansions.
3- The responsability of coding and maintenance is transferred to the team, and is not the responsability of Firax / Take2.
4- As it's done by a group of skilled people, when enough time to test, we can have the result is of good quality, and will not cast a wrong light on the reputation of Firaxis. If it's completly free, we could have a lot of crappy expansions.
5- If it's managed correctly by a team, it will be more stable, and more compatible. If dozens of more or less skilled programmers were working on different concurrent projects, we may have some surprises at the end.
6- It would be possible to study the possible of paying expansions. If hosted on the web, no cost to generate CD or packaging, jsut download the expansion. This could generate additional income for them.

Of course, this model would need careful study, but I do think it can be worh it.

In the meanwhile, I'll continue working on SSS with Darque and Bhiita. And all the others who'd like to help.

First, because I think it's very unlikely Firaxis could at last do something. Second, we have ideas for SSS that are very far beyond what we could do with Civ3, even with the full source code. SSS is much more a new game than a new version of civ.

Unfortunately, we cannot work on it as much as we'd like... The best would perhaps be to find a wealthy investors to support the project, so we can work on it a lot more.

So here is an official call: if you know, or if you are, a wealthy would be investor, contact me!!!

Seriously, though not wanting to hijack the thread, what skills are you looking for, and assuming you added no more people to your team, do you have an ETA for your beta release? One year, two years, more? I figure any decent game engine these days, forgetting completely about the graphics portion, is measured in 3-6 man-years of top-flight programming.

Caveat: all estimates go up the more features we add to our "Wish List".


In that case, I say we leave it as some kind of easy-to-edit-everything project :D

Project phases & personnel requirements:
1. Conceptualization (already done by Steph)
2. Compilation of "wish list" items (can be done on these boards)
3. Division of "wish list" items into categories for AI design.
4. "Strategic AI design" (i.e., how the AI analyses the board and decides what to do).
5. "Tactical" AI design (how the AI handles, at a detailed level, "local" circumstances.
6. Movement rules design.
7. Combat rules design.
8. Graphics design.
9. Also to be considered is coordination of efforts: coding standards and (I'm presuming) Object design templates must be devised (I'm also assuming the effort would be Object Oriented, so the - I would suggest - simplest possible coding language (e.g., Visual Basic) be used.

Well, for the language we are using C#: clean efficient, compatible, with DirectX, and fully object oriented.

For the phases, we have already done the conceptualization, even if it's a bit raw. We would need to polish the different parts, and details them. The movement rules and combat rules design is done to. At least first stage: it may change after desting.
The AI will probably come last, as the idea is to make the game logic for single player, test it works as planned, and then design an AI able to work with it.

Here is our approach, for each stage:
- Initial game design (word doc), for example battles or map tiling mechanism
- Prototype programming, with ugly graphics
- Graphists make better graphics, to check it really works well
- Update of prototype after test with real graphics / real case.

We are also using a "modular" approach. For instance, the battle are independant from technology / exploration. So we can develop it, test it, eventually release it as independant minigame, then we'll do another part.

Also, I'm basing everything on a big editor. If I need to add a new feature, I make an editor to do it, and try to avoid as much as possible hardcoded limitations It's not entirely possible, but for instance you could add as many terrain types as you want, and are not limited to grass, desert, plain, tundra. You just have to add it in the editor, and create the graphics. It doesn't mean it's a task that doesn't need a lot of works to do it properly, but it's doable.


- AND that all needs to be done before a single line of code is written.

Actually, as we are using prototypes and modular approach, we do write code before all the steps are done.


My personnel estimate would be:
1 Project Manager (Steph)
3 AI specification designers
1+ Graphics person(s) (depends upon Steph's approach)
3-4 Programmers
Hordes of play-testers

We will need AI experts at a time. For the Graphics I think 2-3 would be better, because we need a lot of tests graphics to make it works, we'll need icons... And when the engine is stable, we'll need a lot of flavour graphics.
For the programmer, we are definitely missing an AI expert, and I think 1 or 2 other programmers would be useful to make "independant" parts, like networking, or the equivalent of civpedia.
I'd like to have a game designer who can takes time to write down all the details of the game logic (battle, etc). and keep the documentation up to date.
And last, a scenario designer who would use the editors to put together the base rules.

These are "job", not necessrily person: the game designer could also design scenarios.


I would give it a full year for development & testing.

If we could work full time, I think we would need 6 months to make a "stable" engine for a playable game, perhaps without all the features. And then, we'd need 1 more year to add features and polish it.
Afterward, a policy of regular expansion to upgrade the game and add features.

Seriously, though not wanting to hijack the thread, what skills are you looking for, and assuming you added no more people to your team, do you have an ETA for your beta release? One year, two years, more? I figure any decent game engine these days, forgetting completely about the graphics portion, is measured in 3-6 man-years of top-flight programming.
It's very hard to tell with only freetime team members, as we are not sure of our free time, and so of the available work force. We went last year slower than expected because of that.
However, when we do find time, we work fast.

I'm not sure that the owners of the code would agree to release it if they found out that there were plans to charge for the finished product. That said, I would personally be happy to put a bit in (as a donation) on an ongoing basis if I was confident that something would come out of it.

I'm not sure that the owners of the code would agree to release it if they found out that there were plans to charge for the finished product.
Except if part of the agreemnt is to give them back most of what is charged for the finished product.

Actually, ignore that last remark, I was somewhere else. God, I've gotten so bad with my posting since I got to 1000.

Anyway, if you're doing a modular game with few hard coded limits and a big editor then we're all interested.

Well, for the language we are using C#: clean efficient, compatible, with DirectX, and fully object oriented.

For the phases, we have already done the conceptualization, even if it's a bit raw. We would need to polish the different parts, and details them. The movement rules and combat rules design is done to. At least first stage: it may change after desting.
The AI will probably come last, as the idea is to make the game logic for single player, test it works as planned, and then design an AI able to work with it.

Here is our approach, for each stage:
- Initial game design (word doc), for example battles or map tiling mechanism
- Prototype programming, with ugly graphics
- Graphists make better graphics, to check it really works well
- Update of prototype after test with real graphics / real case.

We are also using a "modular" approach. For instance, the battle are independant from technology / exploration. So we can develop it, test it, eventually release it as independant minigame, then we'll do another part.

Also, I'm basing everything on a big editor. If I need to add a new feature, I make an editor to do it, and try to avoid as much as possible hardcoded limitations It's not entirely possible, but for instance you could add as many terrain types as you want, and are not limited to grass, desert, plain, tundra. You just have to add it in the editor, and create the graphics. It doesn't mean it's a task that doesn't need a lot of works to do it properly, but it's doable.


Actually, as we are using prototypes and modular approach, we do write code before all the steps are done.


We will need AI experts at a time. For the Graphics I think 2-3 would be better, because we need a lot of tests graphics to make it works, we'll need icons... And when the engine is stable, we'll need a lot of flavour graphics.
For the programmer, we are definitely missing an AI expert, and I think 1 or 2 other programmers would be useful to make "independant" parts, like networking, or the equivalent of civpedia.
I'd like to have a game designer who can takes time to write down all the details of the game logic (battle, etc). and keep the documentation up to date.
And last, a scenario designer who would use the editors to put together the base rules.

These are "job", not necessrily person: the game designer could also design scenarios.


If we could work full time, I think we would need 6 months to make a "stable" engine for a playable game, perhaps without all the features. And then, we'd need 1 more year to add features and polish it.
Afterward, a policy of regular expansion to upgrade the game and add features.

First off to I_Batman and everyone:
considering I started this thread,hijack it all you want if it's going to lead to fruitful discussion like this.

I like the thinking concept of this. It's quite similar to Firaxis. Logical too, though maybe you'd need rather 4 and up graphic creators, (for the last say six months) and maybe a third programmer for peripheral work.

Looks like the team is gonna need circa five hundred thousand for the duration. I mainly asked to check with the possibility for entrepreneurial project funding, some exist in Greece, but can't probably cover that.

Maybe there's something similar in France? Anyway, I think you can raise the price of the end product too, I bought Chronicles for 60 Euro a few days back and most new games are 50 Euro, which is about 65$ I believe, so something like 30-35$ wouldn't be unreasonable. Firaxis could get 10-15$ and the rest would be income for the team.

But the C3 source code for your version, is it really needed? CTP source code which is available could do well I suppose(now CTP wasn't actualised very well, but that has nothing to do with the code), isn't that usable?

Maybe you can turn to the mods here for help to make you a complete subforum that your team can post and ask for things(like graphics and algorithms or whatever)and that could help you in the long run. I'm sure many here would help if needed and asked specifically.

I'll get back to you if I can find a solution for funding.(If all of us fans were living in the same country I'd suggest a public stockmarket funding assuming you guys could create a new company, but that doesn't seem possible considering we're scattered all over the world).

Steph,

I don't know if you know this, but I've actually managed to pick up some C# by working on making Age of Empires III Random Map Scripts... I could see about possibly coming up with some sample language based on Age II RMS (which are a basic non-programming language script for a 2-d game) and the Age III RMS (which are C# files for a 3D game) for a Random Map scripting format and see what you think....

I like the thinking concept of this. It's quite similar to Firaxis. Logical too, though maybe you'd need rather 4 and up graphic creators, (for the last say six months) and maybe a third programmer for peripheral work.
In fact, we don't need that much graphists. As the game is very modular and with a strong editor, we need enough graphists to make a good base, and then I count on modders to expand the game.


Looks like the team is gonna need circa five hundred thousand for the duration. I mainly asked to check with the possibility for entrepreneurial project funding, some exist in Greece, but can't probably cover that.
Maybe there's something similar in France?

The problem is I'm technical, and not at all into financing. So I would need someone to handle this part if we go really serious.


Anyway, I think you can raise the price of the end product too, I bought Chronicles for 60 Euro a few days back and most new games are 50 Euro, which is about 65$ I believe, so something like 30-35$ wouldn't be unreasonable. Firaxis could get 10-15$ and the rest would be income for the team.
Why should Firaxis get anything for SSS??
If you are speaking of an expansion for CivIII, 50 € is to expensive I think.
For SSS, it depends of what we can really achieve. As an indie game, it won't be as polished as a professional game, so we cannot really charge as much.


But the C3 source code for your version, is it really needed? CTP source code which is available could do well I suppose(now CTP wasn't actualised very well, but that has nothing to do with the code), isn't that usable?

We don't need anything, as we are making the game from scratch, with our own engine and ideas.


Maybe you can turn to the mods here for help to make you a complete subforum that your team can post and ask for things(like graphics and algorithms or whatever)and that could help you in the long run. I'm sure many here would help if needed and asked specifically.

We could do this once the base engine is stable enough. In the meantime, we just have our little poor website.


I'll get back to you if I can find a solution for funding.(If all of us fans were living in the same country I'd suggest a public stockmarket funding assuming you guys could create a new company, but that doesn't seem possible considering we're scattered all over the world).
A French guy won 27 M € at Euromillion yesterday... Unfortunately it wasn't me.

The problem is we have only two solutions:
- We continue to develop it during our free time, and charge a little for beta / expansion when we manage to get it
- Or we get some real serious funding.

As I have a good job, interesting and well paid, I can't afford to work full time on SSS unless I have a really good alternative. If I was a student and single, with lot of free time, things would be different...

Steph,

I don't know if you know this, but I've actually managed to pick up some C# by working on making Age of Empires III Random Map Scripts... I could see about possibly coming up with some sample language based on Age II RMS (which are a basic non-programming language script for a 2-d game) and the Age III RMS (which are C# files for a 3D game) for a Random Map scripting format and see what you think....

Sure, why not. Random map is one of the thing I don't have time to do at the moment.