Well, the question is: don't you find annoying (and weird)lwhen you're leading the tech race, and, suddenly, when all the europeans civs spawn, find that now your 4th or 5th. It happened to me with Greece and Rome, and I found it very annoying. As I usually do, I imagined:
AUGUSTUS: Oh, our Governor in Spain, please give your report.
GOVERNOR: Augustus, do you remember those pesky barbs from Spain?
AUGUSTUS: What happens with them?
GOVERNOR: Well, they are more advanced from we expected.
AUGUSTUS: How much advanced?
GOVERNOR: Well, I woke up one morning, and they were menacing my house with strange big bows. But the worst was their big war machines. Much more better than ours!
AUGUSTUS: That's impossible! Praetorians! Throw this liar to the lions! And call my Generals: we¡re invading Spain tomorrow!

My conclusion is: shouldn't the civs spawn with a number of techs that depends on the average tech level? If the present civs are backwards compared to real history, there shouldn't be a "forced tech race". Plus, spawning civs rarely trade their techs until other civs have discovered something worthy to trade with.

If needed, technologies may be arranged to be cheaper or more expensive depending on the period (maybe this is already done, but I'm not sure). In any case, that tech "jumps" make the earlier civs to have big problems to catch up and win the tech race.

It's just a opinion, but I think Rhye put so much effort in balancing spawning civs with earlier ones, that now earlier civs are in clear disadvantage.

What do you think?

Bah, it's balanced the way it is. Have you ever noticed that in AI Europe, Rome sometimes becomes the leader in that area, and sometimes the world?

Besides, that's history for you. When there is innovation, there is opposition. Where there is establishment, there is conservatism and that is opposition to change. Innovation is the natural enemy of conservatism.

It is only when the leaders realize that at least some of the changes brought by the radical innovators are good. A good example would be when a certain recording company rejected the Beatles, claimig that they had only had mediocre guitar skill. The Beatles style would soon sweep across the mass media world (the innovation), and it was only through the actions of the recording company that did accept the Beatles was that achieved (they are the leaders).

In Civ terms, when faced with high-tech adversity, do not be content with your previous comfortable place. Innovate, compromise. Start teching up with commerce or beeline for war techs to beat the techs out of another civ.

i think it's not completely realistic now but a different implementation would be much more complicated and less balanced

i havn't ever seen that as a big problem. if anything their too far behind!

I don't see this as a problem too. Their starting advantage in techs is necessary for them to survive.

i think it's not completely realistic now but a different implementation would be much more complicated and less balanced

As ever, Rhye hit the point. If he says that another way will be much more complicated and less balanced, I believe him. However, he also admits that it's not completely realistic, which is the conclusion I reached.

Now it should be discussed if the actual system may be improved without blowing it up. I have very little idea of coding, so my propositions are very limited. The only thing that pops up now in my mind is that if early civs cannot reach the state of development of medieval ones, then maybe the values of early techs should be lessened so it's easier to catch up. Also, it may be easier to discover a tech if there are more players in game, than if there are few, but I don't know if it's possible to do it.

As ever, Rhye hit the point. If he says that another way will be much more complicated and less balanced, I believe him. However, he also admits that it's not completely realistic, which is the conclusion I reached.


In the early stages of the mod (when it was called Catapult) I considered this, but ended up to that conclusion.
To have enough chances to survive, the new civ should have top quality units right from the beginning. Especially if it's supposed to expans quickly such as Arabia. As giving units without their prerequisite techs would be silly, I'd need to:
- first, check the surrounding civs advancement
- then, choose the techs to give to the new civ, including some new tech not yet discovered but whose prerequisites already have been
- then write a myriad of checks to select the proper units (if guilds have been discovered, place knights; otherwise place horse archers; and so on...)

I'm sure you'll agree that this is not convenient



Also, it may be easier to discover a tech if there are more players in game, than if there are few, but I don't know if it's possible to do it.

afaik, it's already this way (but I might be wrong). The tech cost formula is a bit complicated...

As giving units without their prerequisite techs would be silly, I'd need to:
- first, check the surrounding civs advancement
- then, choose the techs to give to the new civ, including some new tech not yet discovered but whose prerequisites already have been
- then write a myriad of checks to select the proper units (if guilds have been discovered, place knights; otherwise place horse archers; and so on...)

I'm sure you'll agree that this is not convenient


Hmm, I didn't considered it that way, but you're right. Sounds like a lot of loading time. Well, I guess NitroJay's fantastic job with late saves will be enough for now.

Just a question: would it be possible just to copy the techs and some units from the "mother civ". All civs spawning in the mod have a clear ancestor:
Persia -> Babylon
Japan -> China
Greece -> Egypt and or Babylon
Rome -> Greece
Spain, France, and England ->Rome
Germany -> Celts
Vikings -> Celts? (Ok, here I don't see it clear at all)
Russia -> Germany
Arabia -> Persia
Mali -> Arabia
Turkey -> Arabia
Mongolia -> China
Aztecs -> Natives?
Incans -> Aztecs
America ->England

As you can see, with the exception of two cases, the rest might just check the former civ they split from, or, if collapsed, the independents, and copy their tech level plus a number of units you consider reasonable. That will make spawn of civs a lot more realistic, and may not (don't know) make the game slower. What do you think? It's possible? Will or won't make the game too slow?

id argue this one- Mongolia -> China /and this one- Russia -> Germany

The only place where acquiring techs from a parent Civ is in America's case. In all the others, direct transmission of ideas would not be realistic.

And Mongolia did not spawn from China. China was a place of culture, and was much more technologically advanced than when Mongolia started invading.

id argue this one- Mongolia -> China /and this one- Russia -> Germany

OK, then what about Russia -> Vikings (And on Vanilla?)

And Mongolia did not spawn from China. China was a place of culture, and was much more technologically advanced than when Mongolia started invading.

Hmmm, you're right. My Asian history knowledge is a little rusty, sorry. Then it can have its reference on the Independents.

And I have already assumed that it's not completely realistic, just more realistic than the fixed tech spawn system. In fact, taking as example Mongolia, it spawns being the most advanced civ of Asia (with the exception of Russia, time to time) most of the times. It's realistic? I think it doesn't.

Russia - Vikings would be completely realistic, as Vikings for example found Kiev.

But what happens if the parent civ is dead? I think this feature would cause tons of bugs.

It would best be if its historically accurate.
Egypt, China, Babylon and India would be the first 'Empires'. They were all pretty influential and powerful in their time. They are done up pretty good.
The next Empire to emerge are the Persians. They had all of Babylons lands up to Greece. So Persia should come with an adequate force to be able to achieve this.
http://edsitement.neh.gov/lesson_images/EvalGraphics/PersianEmpire03.jpg

The next Empire is the Macedonian Empire (Greece) led by Alexander The Great. It start from Greece, Babylons lands, most of Egypt up to and some of India, basically the Persian Empire :)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/40/MacedonEmpire.jpg/800px-

After the break up of the Macedonian Empire, it should probly comprise mostly of independent states, and the Previous civilisations, babylon, Persia, Egypt, Greece, The new Civilisations to come to power are Carthage and Rome. Carthage had Northern Africa, some of Spain and some Italian islands.
http://membres.lycos.fr/majed/tunisie/histoire/carthage/empcarth.jpg

They were the hardest rival of the Roman Empire.
The Roman Empire starts of in Italy and conquers th Mediteranean (which is impossible in the current mod)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/f2/Roman_Empire-117AD.png/800px-Roman_Empire-117AD.png

Now the big Barbarian hordes from the North and Atila the Hun. If it its possible to script a massive Barbarian uprise in Germany going towards Rome, which would ultimately cause the colapse of the Roman Empire. And also Spain and France spawning taking lot of land. Lot of independt states after that and again the old civilisations reapearing greeks, babylonains, egyptins etc. Im not exactly sure what follows next, Arabia ? Arabia is pretty good, I conquered most of their historical territories and beyond while playing with it.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/20/Age_of_Caliphs.png
The Turks are next, they are done ok too. etc. etc.
Mainly the problem is in he Ancient times. Persia, ALexander, Rome. Those Empires dont really have the chance to become as mighty as they historically were.
Im not to familiar during the periods after the Arabian Empire, Probably The Francs (Hoy Roman Empire), then Napoleonic France conquering most of Europe. WW2, we know that the Germans should pretty much 'own' eevryone in Europe, after that comes the Soviets and finally USA :)

Just my 5 cents, I really like to see these changes take place and thats probly possible by making the timeline longer, adding fewer units here and there and scripting.

And credit to Rhye, trully a great mod, one of the best I played.

Russia - Vikings would be completely realistic, as Vikings for example found Kiev.

But what happens if the parent civ is dead? I think this feature would cause tons of bugs.

To answer you, I'll quote myself:
As you can see, with the exception of two cases, the rest might just check the former civ they split from, or, if collapsed, the independents

The problem comes in Vanilla, because there is no independent. The only thing I can figure out, it's that if the parent civ is dead, then it should apply the standard fixed techs. But I think there won't be any problems to make a check with a dead civ, because after all, when a civ resurrects, it does it with all the techs it had, no? Or does she have the techs from the occupant? I don't know. But the system applied here should be similar.

And I have already assumed that it's not completely realistic, just more realistic than the fixed tech spawn system. In fact, taking as example Mongolia, it spawns being the most advanced civ of Asia (with the exception of Russia, time to time) most of the times. It's realistic? I think it doesn't.

Mongolia soon loses its tech advantage, because Mongolia's new founded cities generate MUCH less beakers then well-developed cities of China, Japan and India. If we give Mongolia the same tech level as China, poor Mongolia will soon fall behind.

Hmm...I like where you're going with this Fearuin, but I *fear* that the solution will even make things more complicated. It does seem strange when a completely new civilization spawns and is more advanced than civilizations much older than it ever was but I guess this is to make it easier to survive because if say France or Spain spawn without a decent army then Rome will be able to destroy it even easier than it does already. The spawning civs only have 2 or 3 brand new cities to work with and in some situations they are competing against well-entrenched empires with a pretty nice infrustructure already in place. So some kind of advantage MUST be given to those spawning civs.

Now is it totally realistic? Probably not but this mod is the closest thing to perfection I've seen; balancing both history and gameplay. Improvements could (and should) be made definitely but I wouldn't start trying to change the big events too much.

It does seem strange when a completely new civilization spawns and is more advanced than civilizations much older than it ever was but I guess this is to make it easier to survive because if say France or Spain spawn without a decent army then Rome will be able to destroy it even easier than it does already. The spawning civs only have 2 or 3 brand new cities to work with and in some situations they are competing against well-entrenched empires with a pretty nice infrustructure already in place. So some kind of advantage MUST be given to those spawning civs.


Want to give an advantage? Give them zounds of troops, give them lots of gold to hire mercs, but not tech, because giving tech is irreversible (does this word exist in English? I mean that it has no turning back). Now I ask to myself: is it possible to giva to a civ a "half-researched" tech? Then civs may start "near to discover" new techs, but not spawn with them.

I know game balance it's very important, and I'm usually the best defender of it, but I just feel unfair find the Turks or the Mongols to become leaders in tech when they spawn. From time to time, it leads to really weird situations. For example, I don't know exactly what was the tech level of Turks when they "spawned" in real history, but I'm pretty sure that when Arabs did, Civil Service was still very remote and, in fact it developed first in ruralized civilizations, like fallen West Roman Empire.

The only thing I complain is that there should be a way to balance spawning civs without enforcing the tech race. Another idea: increase the effect of "joining forces", in time and in chance. If most of the army of the old civ joins the new one, it will fall down in power quickly. And this effect may last until peace is done, not just after 10 turns.

I hate that affect! and irreversable does indead exist in english (just curius as I have no idea about other languages, how can you say a word and not know if it exists?)

(just curius as I have no idea about other languages, how can you say a word and not know if it exists?)

I think he ment that he doesn't know if it existed in English, like one day I tried to say "Saudade" in English... but then someone said to be that this word only exist in Portuguese! >_<


From WikiPedia


Saudade is generally considered one of the hardest words to translate. It originated from the Latin word solitatem, but developed a different meaning. Loneliness in Portuguese is solidão (a semi-learned word), from Latin solitudo. Few other languages in the world have a word with such meaning, making saudade a distinct mark of Portuguese culture. It has been said that this, more than anything else, represents what it is to be Portuguese.

Solitude? also (I would guess) comes from Solitudo...

and surely if he translated it then it must exist, otherwise ya couldn't?? I am confused

I think he ment that he doesn't know if it existed in English, like one day I tried to say "Saudade" in English... but then someone said to be that this word only exist in Portuguese! >_<


Yes, exactly. As a romanic lenguage, most Spanish words, like 'irreversible' have a latin root. Some of these words exist in English but are archaic or unused (yep, "archaic" it's an example), some others are still used nowadays, and finally others have been replaced for germanic words, or mixture between a latin root and a germanic one (like "unused": "used" comes from latin "usus", but "un-" has no traslation into latin, it comes from germanic tongues).

And Saudade does not only exist in Portuguese, it exists too in Galician lenguage (the original one of the region I come from), and roughly with the same meaning. But, of course, Galician and Portuguese were an unified lenguage in the medieval ages, and both come from latin, in their origin.

archaic isnt that archaic ;)

Oh, fantastic. It's a word I like a lot. Some of those words that, if I had to compose an universal lenguage, I'll add without doubt. :)