WOTM 08 First Spoiler

Reading Requirements:

You must have reached at least 0 AD.
You must know the location of the capital of any & all other civs on the home continent.


Posting Restrictions

You must not discuss any events post 500 AD.
You must not post any screenshots or details about civilizations not on the home continent. You may post about events "in a far away land".

I started this game with a “fork-shaped” strategy. I would begin with one clear idea, and then follow a separate branch depending on what conditions dictated. The first part of the plan was to build a super science city. This would be powered by cottages coupled with an early academy, great library, and CS-slingshot. Yes, it is supposed to have been nerfed in warlords, but I need to rush for mathematics for the UB in any event, and with a cottage powered start and a library, I should have time to research everything.

Once the science monster is up, I will need to make a decision as to how to push it home to victory. The main options are:

-Rush to macemen and conquer my continent, then rush to astronomy and conquer the world.
-Rush directly to astronomy and gunpowder for the UU powered conquest.
-Use the city to drive research towards an early spaceship launch.
-Rush to astronomy + mass media. Spread Confucism (which the CS-slingshot should will me), and try for an early diplomacy win.

So, that was the plan. Let’s see if it survived first contact with the enemy…

So, in 4000 BC, I founded my capital in place, started production of a worker and began directly with pottery research, which I got in 3640 and went straight on to writing. I met MM around this time, and made a mental note that if I select one of the branches above that will take me deeper into the research tree, I will likely have a trading partner to come with me.

In 3520, the worker came in and began putting down cottages on every floodplain he could find. At the same time, I began speed building a granary (using a forest tile) with the idea of getting it up as quickly as possible to grow to full size as quickly as possible and use scientist in my soon to be library.

In 3120, I got writing, and turned my scientists’ attention to discovering mining, both so that I can mine some hills for production, and on the way to BW for some early whipping. Shortly thereafter, in 2920 I start building my library.

Around 2800, MM asks for open borders, and I decide to keep him friendly, at least for now. In 2560, I learn BW and revolt to slavery. I get the message that MM also did so the same turn (in fact, he went right before me). I start research in mysticism, heading for the CS-slingshot. At about this time, my worker had finished putting down his 5th cottage, which is the number I was planning on needing early on, so he started work on mining the two hills.

2440: I whip the library into place, start researching meditation and begin production of warriors for defense since I expect the barbs to start coming in at about 2000 at this level. I also focus the capital on growth (to the happy limit) and cottage working. (I will not here that I have made a conscious decision to delay fishing. I simply did not think the extra growth potential from the fish was worth the science detour, the time to build the WB, and the turns where cottages were not worked).

In 2240, I start priesthood, continuing on the path to the slingshot, and also start using scientists in the library (alternating between 0, 1 and 2, as I micromanage growth speed as well). In 2160, I begin wok on COL. I need to still peck through it, and math, before I can slingshot to CS. I also produce a third warrior (including my staring one) for defense.

All was peaceful until 2040 when, just about on schedule, a lion entered my realm and was defeated. The next turn, in 2000, and now guarded by 3 fierce warriors, my men began work on the oracle. I learned COL in 1680, and began researching math.

In 1360, I had a lucky even happen. I pop silver under a mine in my capital. While this would actually delay the oracle a shade because of the one fewer hammer, the extra research was always going to be a long term benefit. In 1280, my great scientist came in, and I used it for an academy as planned. That same turn, I learned mathematics, and began researching monarch with the plan of having a “double revolt” to CS and HR (since at this level, I can do both with only a single turn of anarchy), and use my 3 warriors to increase my happy cap.

I then whipped the oracle to completion in 1200 and obviously take CS. I start building a monastery for the 10% research as I wait for monarchy to come in. This happens in 1040, and as planned, I revolt to CS+HR.

In 1000BC, still lacking any strategic resource, I decide to insert a quick AH here to see if I can get horses as I am starting to fear for my defenses. When it comes in two turns later, I see that there are indeed horses nearby, and that will be a prime target for a second city if things get to dicey. I then push on to Alphabet in 950, both with the idea of trading with MM to backfill the early techs, and on the road to the great library.

Alphabet is learned in 850, and I trade COL for Poly + Fish + Hunt + Mason. I then immediately start building two archers for defense, and start researching IW. In 750 BC, I turn my attention to learning paper, and begin production of two work boats to collect the health bonus, and to be able to recover from whipping more quickly.

In 575, paper came in, and I turned to metal casting. I also began pumping out settlers; whipping the first in 550, and then producing a second worker (to take advantage of the bonus on the overflow) and then another settler. I founded the horse city in 475 BC, and began studying machinery.

In 250, it was time to trade again. This time Metal casting = sail + mono + map + 20gc. The map was relatively useful as well, as MM had already done a decent job of mapping out the contour of the continent, so that I now know for sure (though I already suspected it) that it is just he and I. Two turns later, I trade again: Machinery = calendar + currency. I also convert to confucism for the extra happiness.

I now (125 BC) begin research into printing press (for the bonus to my cottages) and start work on the GL. I am tech-ing well, but so is MM (who his map has revealed, also has a high powered research capital) and he gets Music in 100 AD. In 225 AD, printing press comes in, giving research a boost, and I head for the lumber mill tech! Yes, I am planning to power my capital production with lumber mills in order to keep the health bonus the forests provide. I whip the great library to completion in 450 AD.

So, in 500 AD, I have CS, cottages with printing press, Great Lib, and an academy. Unfortunately, I do not have a save anywhere near this date, so I can only guess at my science output. I would estimate that I hade about 4 full cottages (6 gc each) going, in addition to the to the silver mine, the palace, and a couple of see tiles or partial cottages. So that would make about 45 gc plus the 6 from the GL makes ~50. CS ups that to 75, and the academy, library and monastery multiply that by 1.85 for a total of about 140gc/turn from my capital. Not bad for this date.

I also have enough area for decent cottage spamming of about 10 cities, and I have a good trading partner in MM, who also is going well. At this stage, I am considering trying to push this to a space ship launch, hopefully being able to produce a decent date.

Tech path to 500 AD, with those traded for in parenthesis:

3640- Pottery
3120- Writing
2880- Mining
2560- BW
2400- Myst
2240- Medit
2160- Priest
1680- COL
1280- Math
1040- Monarchy
950- AH
850- Alpha (Poly, Fish, Hunt, Mason)
750- IW
575- Paper
450- Metal Casting
250- (Sail, Mono)
200- Machinery (Calendar, Currency)
225AD- Print press.

by 500AD, i was alone once again on the home continent, busy tech through my way to astronomy.

after reading erkon's post in the pre-game discussion, i decided to do the AH gambit, which rewarded me instantly. chariots performed homeland security well, also contributed greated in the early rush of our culturally and financially rich neighbor. my chariots arrived just in time that mansa's skirmishers are moving towards his 2nd city.

i declared at 975bc and killed the 2 defending warriors and sacked Djenne and then ambushed his skirmisher in the open. then i took city of Kumbi Saleh which was also only defended by 2 warriors. when re-enforcements came available, i destroyed the brown city mansa just built and seiged Timbuktu for more than a thousand year until my catapults becomes abundent enough to take the city. mali-ottoman war ended at 350ad with total annihilation of mali empire.

luckily, my war weariness never rose in this lengthy war. i won't complain about it. :) nothing special other than that.

right after dow to mansa
151869

mansa facing his end
151873

year 500ad
151872

What a disaster.

My first-ever GOTM. I forgot about the raging barbarians until I saw them --- extremely scary. I ended up whipping a warrior to save my capital, and then actually whipping the Great Wall just in time (the next turn was to be two barb archers versus one of my very damaged archers). I was especially proud of my second city location, which sealed off the continent from Mansa -- but as you can see by the minimap in the corner, the barbarians caught me off-guard to the point that my current state is quite laughable. I made some other mistakes too which are a little embarrassing, but hey! It's my first one, right? :crazyeye:

http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k138/Cchhrriissppyy/Civ4ScreenShot0008.jpg

On the up-side, I have great wall+pyramids in capital. On the downside, those took until 750BC and 175BC, respectively. I'm having fun, and my #1 lesson so far is to play slower -- there's only one of these a month, so maybe thinking a little more would be useful!

What difficulty was this game? Immortal? At least my landlock neigbor thought so. Man you Tech Monster Musa.

I had planned to go the peace route...culture.. but now it seem the UN may be the fastest.

Took Thrallia's advise and built the GW and that saved my posterior, since I never researched Archary and forgot AH for a while. But in the process of getting my first 3 cities out and the hope of getting a GE from the Capital, I waited too long to start the Pyramids and lost it. The GE ended up being a Prophet. Argggggg.

Between Musa and I, we discoverd all the religions. So may be there still is a chance to go after the Culture which I never tried before. Any advise is welcome.


@Ainwood: Lesbian ? I guess someone PM'ed you.:lol: Must have something to do with your countries PM you seem to adore:rolleyes: .

@Htadus: what is that??

Unfortunately, my spoiler for this game will be nowhere near as detailed as my spoiler last game...

Basically, I settled in place, started off with a worker and researching pottery.

My early research after that though...was unfortunately not as well thought out as I would ahve hoped...I went founded my second city N to grab the corn and horses and was beat to the Great Wall by 7 turns pre 800BC! :mad: in all my tests, the AI never built it before 1AD!

So obviously, I had to hurry on the Oracle and Pyramids or I'd lose them. I built both the Oracle and Pyramids in my northern city, Oracle first, Pyramids second, grabbing Metal Casting with Oracle simply because it was the most expensive tech I could research I cared about(could have grabbed Music, but didn't want it). I adopted Representation immediately after Pyramids finished.

I knew quickly that Mansa was my only neighbor, which meant there was some tech trading, so I figured I'd be in good shape later on when I met the other continent, which is the direction I eventually focused my teching toward.

I founded my 3rd city on the E coast just under the rice, took a barb city with the 4 sugars(or are they silk?) south of the jungle, and my fifth city I founded next to the marble so I could get the Great Library built in my capital in a reasonable amount of time. I still didn't have iron or copper, and my sixth city was a barb city on top of the northern iron that i went ahead and kept for the whale and fish resources(and because that was the only decent spot I could get up there that would net me the iron). And my last city before 500AD was founded at the northeast corner of the continent, with horses, wine, and fur all within its fat cross.

At 500AD, I had built the Oracle, Pyramids, Great Library, and an Academy. I was being outteched by Mansa(darn him with his silk, gold, gems, and floodplains!!!), except I had just built my first two caravels and was beginning my search for other continents.

At this point I think I'm teching too slow to go for a space race victory, unless I can get some really good trades on the other continent, and unless the other continent is very backward, I don't think I'll be winning any military victories...that leaves cultural and diplo, and despite Mansa founding both Judaism and Hinduism, I've only had each religion spread to a single city of mine...so I think I'll be attempting my good old diplo win(I've only submitted 1 non-diplo win in all my GOTM submissions)...hopefully I can get myself an engineer or two to help me get a shot at a fastest diplo.

@Htadus: what is that??
that was from ainwood's signature, which is once again updated.;)


At 500AD, I had built the Oracle, Pyramids, Great Library, and an Academy. I was being outteched by Mansa(darn him with his silk, gold, gems, and floodplains!!!), except I had just built my first two caravels and was beginning my search for other continents.

talking about mansa's golden land, i truely believe that he bribed at least one (if not all) of the GOTM staff, to have them not only giving him all the resources above, but also a fish and a horse, and above all, a riverside/floodplain/plain/hill/gold!:eek: if mined, it's 3f/3s/9(?)g!!! mansa was grinning, "you fool! thinking you are playing on noble? i'm playing on cheiftain!":lol:

@Htadus: what is that??
Well, when I posted earlier, Ainwood had "Am I a lesbian?" under the carbon neutral statement. Funny I thought.

BTW thanks for suggesting the GW build.

It seems that I failed my game, so wont be submitting it. But what I learned pre-500 AD;

didn't do GW, and didn't need it pre-500 AD, and most likely wont need it afterwards. The continent was so small that I was able to cover most areas of my side of the continent to prevent spawning; after the beginning, I really didn't see any barbarians anymore. On small continent like that, Raging Barbarians really isn't the same as Raging Barbarians on Highlands (?)

Maybe do GW for GE, but for the barbarian stopping effect it really seems like its not required in this game.

Nothing else to say about my game; weak military, weak tech. Tried to take Mansas cities, and performed badly. After that I had still weak tech, but even weaker military. =/

Okay, after having finished the game just 10 minutes ago I try to remember the things which came up until 500AD.

Actually my plan was building some 5 to 6 cities as soon as possible so that I don´t need to waste time to build GW. Somehow I underestimated the barb-coming-up frequency and lost my second (1 south of the rice) city even once to the barbs. Luckily only for one round... badly that I lost the already built baracks and library.

Third city had all the sugar end the marble. Fourth city in the north east had the wine and fith city in the north had iron and crabs.

At 500 AD I was really disappointed about myself being far behind in points compared to Mansa. I couldn´t believe him to teching me out. I was able to trade some stuff but realized that I would have to attack him as fast as possible to make sure he won´t expand anymore.

My first builds in the capital were warrior, worker, settler, worker, baracks, warrior, warrior, library.

The fact that it´s noble made me think that I could tech for almost everything before going for alphabet because nobody could techtrade with me for a long time. Mh, okay.. I guess I really have to change my way of playing, because until 500 AD I felt totally like a noob.

The only thing that was making me looking forward was that finally I had some units to control the barbs which gave me the chance to plan the attack on Mansa.

Okay, so far so good (or bad). Everything beyond 500 AD in the next spoiler...

Planning

I had no clear-cut plan at the start of this game.
Having said that, I didn’t have no plan at all – it’s just that my plan involved too many unknowns.

I knew that I wanted to achieve domination of my continent somewhere between 0AD and 1000AD. How I achieved that depended on various things. How many and what kind of neighbours. What resources were available for military.

So these were things that had to be discovered early on, and then the detailed plan could fall into place.

There were also a set of embryonic plans for dealing with raging barbarians, for getting my economy into a good state, which wonders would be useful.

Looking further ahead, I wanted to research Optics, find the other continent before anyone else, and then plot my victory.

So …what actually happened?

Starting out

I ran the settlers north and saw the stone and the second shoal of fish. Had a long think about where best to settle, before running right back to where I was and founding Istanbul in 3920BC.

Istanbul’s early builds went: warrior – bit of a Barracks – worker.
Our initial research went: Mining – BronzeWorking .

The original warriors went and scoped out the lands to the N, while the new warriors headed generally S.

When I realised there was no copper anywhere nearby, I made the next research Animal Husb in the hope of finding some horses.

Some 20-something turns in, I met Mansa, the founder of Buddhism.

By 30 turns, I knew roughly the shape of our continent, and when AH came up I could see where there were some horses to be had. I had a look at the area immediately to the N of Istanbul, and worked out a reasonable location to allow access to the horses, and also allow growth and productivity.

151918

Some warriors went exploring into Mansa’s bit of the continent, just to confirm that there was no narrow connection to any more pieces of land that might contain a third civ.

This was very unlike all of my practice games. We were sharing a substantial piece of land with just one other. That meant lots of empty spaces for the barbarians to lurk. I started to get worried about them, and made sure to research Archery.

151920

Barbarian Days

Edirne was founded by the horses in the north on turn 56 (1760BC).

I had researched Mysticism, to allow for cultural expansions, and then made HorseRiding the next one. I had an idea about rushing Mansa with HorseArchers.

I saw my first barb on turn 60 (1600BC) and 7 or 8 turns later they were coming in thick and fast!
I was glad to have got some Archers ready by this time, who kept them all down to the level of a nuisance.

I built Stonehenge in 14 turns, completing in 1160BC, and hadn’t even hooked the stone up!

Probably the only unit I ever lost to barbarians was the first warrior I built from Istanbul, who had explored all the way S through Mansa-country. Finally he was ambushed by a few too many of the blighters and didn’t have time to heal. RIP!

151919

Research went HorseRiding, then Masonry, and on to IronWorking.

I started the Gt Wall in 750BC, and gave it up just 4 turns later, when I found out that somebody else had already built one. Went for the Pyramids instead, and completed them in 25BC !!

Preparing to Push Mansa into the Corner

During the time I was building the Pyramids, IronWorking came up and I made a couple of interesting discoveries.

First, we had 2 sources of iron close enough to be worked, but not within any borders. The first, on the northern tundra, is not the best city location. The second, on the E coast, has desert around but is the site I would use. We needed a new city, though.

Second, Mansa had some iron within his borders. It might even be hooked up. This meant I had to be careful about wading in with my HorseArchers. A little investigation was needed first.

So, we founded Ankara on the E coast and got the iron hooked up.

We sent a HorseArcher down to have a look at Mansa, and could see that his iron was indeed hooked up.

In the years between 225AD and 500AD, I behaved very friendly with Mansa, while all the time wandering HorseArchers around all his military installations to take photographs. (or paint pictures).
I got a good idea of his total military strength. I estimated it at 15 skirmishers, 2 spears, 3 axes at 350AD. We were still a little behind this, but were building swordsmen 24 hours a day!

500AD Summary

It’s been a very slow and cautious start. We have just 3 cities. We have built Stonehenge and the Pyramids. We’ve been virtually untroubled by barbarians, but that’s thanks to the dedicated ranks of fog-busting units who could have been doing something more exciting, like rushing Mansa!
Anyway, Mansa’s going to be attacked in the very near future. The aim is going to be – snip his iron – march the swordsmen in. Crush his best cities. He gives us lots of tech for peace.

We’ll see in the next spoiler.

I think I'm still expanding too slowly in the begining as Mansa seems to have twice as many cities as I do. Anyways, I settled on the plains hill NE of the starting location (I'm still bit unsure if it was good decicion). Built warrior, worker, warrior and settler.

Started GW on 2400BC. Edirne founded on 2280BC to north, 1S of the horses. I finished GW in Istanbul on 1720BC. Ankara founded on 1280BC in the middle of the forests south from the starting location to deal with most of the remaining floodplains. Started the Pyramids in Istanbul on 675BC. Bursa founded on 475BC in the north to take iron, corn and crabs.

Then comes a mistake, I started to build Oracle in Bursa 475BC. I have no idea why I decided to give Oracle a try this late. If I wanted it I should have founded 3rd and 4th cities in different order. Even with two workers chopping around Bursa I lost the Oracle by one turn in 125BC.

Pyramids are finished 0AD but I forgot to change to Representation (running hybrid economy) until 560AD* :blush: (User comment: Sigh. Changing to representation couple of turn late - yeah, couple). I found Konya on the east cost on 425AD.

At this time I'm hundreds of points behind Mansa. I'd remember he had 9 cities against my 5. I'm building Axes, Swords and Catapults to start a war soon but I'm not too confident about my situation.

*I suppose this doesn't count as a post 500AD spoiler.

Being behind MM early in this case is not really an indication of being to slow... His start location is the best I have ever seen (and I assume it was a WB-special). If the human player had such a start, by the end of this spoiler you would see players with more than twice the score of the AI!

I somehow lost my most current saves halfway through the game and so I can't submit this month...ouch

What a disaster.

[. . . ]

my #1 lesson so far is to play slower -- there's only one of these a month, so maybe thinking a little more would be useful!

I heartily agree with these two parts of your message. I gambled on bronze, went to masonry, and was unable to build the Great Wall in time. I lost three settlers/cities along the way. Accursed barbs.

On the bright side, I might be in the running for my first medal. On the down side, it would be for a big loss.

I don't know about the rest of you, but MM was a double-edged sword for me. With a CS slingshot (oracle) & an early academy, Istanbul was a huge research power-house (I found the unique building very useful, BTW). MM and I both teched fast - even faster than we both could alone. We both had optics before the spoiler deadline. I popped it with a GS & was planning on selling it to MM but he had it too! I knew at this point he had to be stopped now.

Hard to remember back that far, but between 0AD & 500AD or so, the raging barbs were starting to die down and MM was about to hook up his northern iron (luckily with the GW all the barbs had been funneling down to his iron and keeping him from hooking it up). I declared just in time, with a small band of HA and chariots to keep him from hooking this up. I went on a pillaging run taking out all the juicy towns in MM's northern empire. This helped me keep my research going at 100% for a while.

I had no construction at this time, with a plan to get to knights and then to cavalry to take out MM & astro to take out the rest of the world for a "fast" domination victory. I think I attacked just in time. With pikemen I don't think I would have been able to take him out. Anyway more in the next spoiler, but I think I will actually make use of the UU since I'll have gunpowder before MM when he still is defended with LBs. The gunpowder units should help against walls & such since I don't have construction!

Well, glad to know I wasn't the only one who might've been lulled by the above comment that was used to open the pre-game discussion.

I suppose I could talk about my pre-game plans, but once I saw the stone just outside the fatcross -- and then when founding onsite, discovered the second fish -- I tossed them & came up with a new one anyway. Recognizing the commerce-powerhouse/ production weakness of the starting location, plus the chance to get wonders cheap with stone, I went that route, on two-track path to develop cottages & get wall to protect them. Teched to get pottery to cottage spam immediately, then BW for slavery, then writing to leverage cottages & expand borders to pull in stone ASAP. I think I got archery before masonry to hold the borders when barbs hit while wall was built, not sure offhand, and I also got fishing in the first few techs in order to take exploit fish resources early. Anyway I produced a few archers and managed to hang on until I got the wall finished, a couple dozen turns into raging barb onslaught. Not a moment too soon, as there were a couple close calls: archers >75% wounded & barely able to heal in time to face next wave &for the last few turns before finishing the wall I was reduced to mostly protecting the city, quarry, and the road to it (the turn the wall was built there were literally barbarians right outside the gates of the capital, and only one archer inside it). Besides wall, also successfully went for & got pyramids, also Great Library & a couple more wonders in capital.

However all that meant I was a little slow in expanding, and by about 500ad that made it clear that it was going to make things tough. My warrior was killed fairly early so I wasn't able to explore much at first. It had gone exploring south & I had found the location with all the sugar & gems, and I sent my first settler to go there, but it had to sit an wait many turns for an escort while the archers were busy fighting off the barbs while the wall was being built (in hindsight I should have finished the wall before popping a settler? I'd built one archer specifically to go with it as escort, but I underestimated the barbarian invasion -- one stretch of three turns had three barbarians attacking just the quarry square! -- and that archer was diverted to protecting the capital region). By the time I got the wall built to free the settler escort, when I got back down south I found a barb city with two archer garrison already on the sugar site, which I wasn't going to take with my archer escort. So I ended up founding a city in the coastal desert just to the east of this site, capturing the marble two squares west of it, but in the long run a much much less nicer site (this site ended up being holy city for both confucianism and christiantiy, so it was an even bigger loss I couldn't grab the primo sugarfield/ river/ gems site instead). MM later came along and captured the barb city before I could, and so my southern expansion was pretty much limited to that. Everything else had to be built in the north, none of them on good sites IMO.

So I ended up with a monster commerce/wonder powerhouse capital plus 4 marginal additional cities in a star around it by 500ad. I had not even explored most of MM's territory yet by that time, and didn't realize even realize yet that we were the only ones there (though I'd guessed it, and I have already played into the 1600s so I'm not learning anything from the spoilers). MM was the only civ I'd met by 500ad, and although my capital was pumping out incredible research, and I managed to found all the late religions except islam (and MM had hinduism .. that he & I had everything but Buddhism & the very late Islam something that will come back to haunt me later when I found other civs, as you can imagine, but that's for next spoiler thread), MM was still kicking my butt in score, had more than double my score by around 500ad, and appeared to be pulling ahead of me in techs.

It looked bleak indeed, my tech-oriented strategy (getting writing and alpha quickly) had not planned for these circumstances. Because of all the whipping and fast growth I got from the Istanbul site, it had to do double duty for me as both my main commerce & production site. If I had known MM was the only other civ I'd see for a long time (& that he was situated to get the lion's share of the territory and resources on the continent) I'd have considered a very very different path, but c'est la vie. I think people who went for the early kill of MM will do much MUCH better than those of us who didn't & tried to go more pacific/Cottage & tech route. If I hadn't lost the initial warrior early to bad luck with an animal, maybe I would've realized I could fogbusted in the north pretty easily & would've skipped the wall and expanded/built military early. Like I said, c'est la vie. Because there was no copper, and I got the iron and horses late due to exploring/settling south first, a military path seemed already out of reach by the time I realized it's wisdom. I'd planned to go for a tech/spaceship win, but it was starting to look dubious at 500ad because of MM's massive territory lead making up for the very concentrated quality of my capital city. That's for the next thread though.

It also didn't help that I lost the race for two early wonders by less than five turns each (lighthouse and oracle, and also later the one that gives you the +1 hammer for priest, forget it's name) :( :(

p.s. one thing I was surprised to learn in this game about the GW -- apparently it doesn't apply to the sea squares in your territory? I built no early navy because of it and so was very surprised -- and helpless -- when a barbarian galley sailed into my boundaries and destroyed both my fishing boats in capital fat cross :( Oh well, learn something new every game.

In 1360, I had a lucky even happen. I pop silver under a mine in my capital.Wow, that must've been nice! Forget about commerce for a moment, the extra happiness would be great for increasing city size & when whipping. It seems like people are discovering things in their existing mines all the time in recent GOTM, when I can't remember the last time I did :( :( :(

p.s. one thing I was surprised to learn in this game about the GW -- apparently it doesn't apply to the sea squares in your territory? I built no early navy because of it and so was very surprised -- and helpless -- when a barbarian galley sailed into my boundaries and destroyed both my fishing boats in capital fat cross :( Oh well, learn something new every game.

Noticed the same. I also had fishing boats destroyed before I built any navy. I guess it makes sense though ;)

This is what I get for not reading. I didn't realise it was raging barbs until I checked after my 2800 BC capital sacking by barb warrior. Never even met an AI.

Well, I think it's better i write this down before I start forgetting the details.

The Planning

I hadn't played any GOTM ever since GOTM2, though I sometimes check some of the previous played threads. Fortunately, Sisiutil's current ACL game was also featuring Ottoman and I had just read his pregame introduction of MII where I learnt some basic features. But I haven't played any arid map before. So, the first thing I did was to follow the pre-game discussion, and started playing some testing games with the game settings. Then it was pretty obvious to me that Erkon's suggestion most fit my style. The chariot will provide good early protection against any animals and up to axeman on this mainly flat map settings. It also provides possibility for an early rush if the neighbor is close enough. Of course, you have to have horse nearby, so it's a gambit. Other than that, test games told me that the barbs could be really crazy, if you don't have a overpowering army, you'd be in trouble. So, GW is an option, but I thought it would depend on what resource I could immediately have access to. If I could get horse and/or copper, barb won't do much damage. And consider we won't have a super production capital, spending a lot hammers on GW maybe just as equal as some military units which could be multi-purpose, well just my thoughts.

Well, my original plan was to dominate the homeland asap, and then tech to astro and invade. This would be the easiest way for me to complete the game. :)

So, after debating a little bit, I finally loaded my 3rd GOTM with mixed feeling.

The Beginning: before 1000BC

According to my pregame plan based on Erkon's blueprint, I should start to build a work boat right away. But where was the work boat option? doh! no fishing! :lol: OK, plan B right now! What a game plan! Well, i decided i'd still go for AH first, and started to build a worker. Warrior went northwest-wards.

Got AH and met Mansa at 3600BC. And then I saw the horse to the north. It wasn't a great site, but I really need it. I started research Fishing, then Mining, then, BW. No copper nearby. :( Well, at least I could get some mounted units and the whip! :D

I began building an warrior after the worker. Worker started to farm one of the floodplain and build some road towards north. (couldn't do anything else yet. :() After the pop grew to 2, i switched to work boat before finishing the warrior. work boat finished in 2880BC and fish net started working on 2800BC and my food began to grow like crazy. I finished a warrior and began another, but switched to settler when pop reached 4. Finished the settler on 2320BC and the warrior the next turn, and whip a granary the turn after. Founded Edirne on 2200BC with immediate access to the horse, and started building granary there. Finished Stonehenge at 1200BC, just a preference.

My first Chariot was built at 1760BC, and started killing barb right away. And both cities started to pop Chariots. And i slowly move my stream of Chariots to the south towards Mansa's land. I first survyed Mansa's land and found he's already got Skirmishes up in the capital. Too bad, no free meals. However, I did found his 2nd and 3rd cities were poorly defended with a couple of warriors at either city. But Mansa was sending a skirmisher to his 2nd city.

The War: 975BC - 350AD

It was then or never, I had 2 Chariots in range and a 3rd around the his capital. So, when I declared, it teleport my 3rd Chariots right to the attacking range and move one of my standby Chariot one block north to yield to the coming Skirmisher. Then, the war started, I killed the 2 warrior in no time with no loss. And, then killed the skirmisher in the open with no loss! There was a third MM's warrior around in the forrest to the east, but instead of trying to take the city back. That warrior went north. Didn't I mention that I had a stream of Chariots coming down? ;)

Once I got another full strength Chariot, (either coming from south or recovered from the battle), I sent him to survey the 3rd city and see if MM got a skirmisher there. The answer was no. Just 2 warrior, so, I attacked and killed one of them. 3 turns later, I capture MM's 3rd city. And by now I have decided not to pursue peace until either I destroy MM or I couldn't afford the war because of the warweariness. I sent all my Chariots into MM's territory to seige the city and my military expenses exploded. :( And I found MM built a fourth city with pontential copper access. This city had to be destoryed! I assembled 5 to 6 Chariots and I got my first war loss there. But the city was burned to ground, and I made sure MM won't have any mounted units, spear man, axeman, and/or swordman showed up unless he got longbow.

So, I spent some some time teched around and managed to build Oracle at 425BC before I finally focused on Construction, and got it in 275BC, and by 350AD, Mansa's capital fell to an army of Catapults.

Techs

My tech progress by 500AD, very messy.

(3600 BC) Animal Husbandry
(3400 BC) Fishing
(3160 BC) Mining
(2720 BC) Bronze Working
(2440 BC) Pottery
(2080 BC) Writing
(1840 BC) Masonry
(1720 BC) Mysticism
(1440 BC) Polytheism
(1320 BC) Priesthood
(800 BC) Code of Laws
(725 BC) Sailing
(675 BC) Meditation
(500 BC) Mathematics
(400 BC) Philosophy
(275 BC) Construction
(125 BC) Iron Working
(225 AD) Calendar
(325 AD) Monotheism
(375 AD) Theology

This is what I get for not reading. I didn't realise it was raging barbs until I checked after my 2800 BC capital sacking by barb warrior. Never even met an AI.
ouch! 2800BC? i could be destroyed as well if barbs came at that time in my game! :rolleyes:

This is what I get for not reading. I didn't realise it was raging barbs until I checked after my 2800 BC capital sacking by barb warrior. Never even met an AI.

ouch...if I recall, at 2800BC I had 4 warriors, 1 defending Istanbul, 1 defending my worker and 2 exploring. I was building a settler to settle my second city at the time, so if I'd seen more than a couple barbs I woulda been in trouble too. The only reason I was protecting my worker was because I knew it was raging barbs, and had no desire to win a second red ambulance lol

They did it, once again.
If a game is on noble, we are supposed to play at this difficulty.
Why give a start like the one MM has? That hill is insulting for the players, and he has lot of resources, with no need to advantage him in this way.
The tech pace the AI can have at this level is the one of the other continent, not the one MM has.
Our luxury resources are buried in the jungle, and without GW it would be a small war to hook and keep any.
In addiction we need some less-than-optimal cities to hook some resource like fur or wine.

I really don't understand why in any GotM you invent something to alter the balance... isn't the RNG enough?

This is what I get for not reading. I didn't realise it was raging barbs until I checked after my 2800 BC capital sacking by barb warrior. Never even met an AI.

Yow! Were these normal barbarians?? Or did somebody let them out of a hut somewhere?
I certainly didn't think barbs appeared until about turn 50 / 2000BC.
In this game I didn't see even the hair on one of their heads until turn 60 / 1600BC!!

I just checked my notes. In 2800BC I had the stately total of 2 warriors to protect me. I'd just learned BronzeWorking - but a lot of good that was for early units!!

Unlucky. :eek:

I already posted my thoughts about this map.
To clarify: i appreciate the Staff efforts, but i feel that sometime the games are too much unbalanced. IMHO a balanced map for the level increases the enjoyability of the game, helps to attract more people and more submissions.

My game:
Settle in place, warrior/worker.
Research fish/pottery/hunting/writing/mining/AH
then the path for the CS sling: myst/poly/masonry (for GW)/priest/Col
then Math/Alpha
I've built my first WB after the GW, to avoid excessive growth (i can't whip, no BW).
If i has no horses i would have go for archery before myst.
Cottages and more cottages, mined and roaded hills
Edirne founded in t47 (2120 BC), 1N of the water, to grab the horses: warrior/chariot/chariot/oracle (with a chariot after few turns to replace the one lost against a warrior - damn RNG).
Library in Istanbul in 1360 BC, then the stone was hooked, GW - finished in 800 BC, the following turn (775 BC) Math was learned and the Oracle completed, revolt to B. and caste in 700.

Alpha ready in 460 BC, to discover MM has lots of techs.
Traded for sailing, archery, BW, researched Literature/IW/MC
Traded for Construction and Currency.
My research was at 80% for almost all the game, lowered at 60/70% during the Malinese war.
My scouting chariot mapped MM terrritory, with a "sugar" barb city freshly captured by MM; for some reason he culture bombed in this city, delaying the gems in my 5th city.
3rd city to grab the Iron, just to see it popping up in a hill near Istambul 2 turns later.
4th for southern furs
5th for gems
6th to fill the land near the tundra horses.

The rest of the continent was filled by Mansa.
The UB rocks, especialy in this map.
I was building the HG when a GE popped out of Edirne (yes, Pyramids built in 150 BC, repr/slavery in 425 AD. i forget to revolt :mad: )
Used GE for GL, and this costed me the HG, beaten for a turn by Mansa.

First GS for an Academy in Istambul in 425 AD (when i noticed i forget to revolt).
Optics in 520 AD and a simple plan: conquer all the continent in a 1 shot war with the help of my UU and be first to Liberalism to get Astronomy.
I stopped the tech trading with MM after the 3 above mentioned, i didn't want him too advanced.
Better wait for the other civs, he was behind me in the Astro path, he was following a complete different res. path (economics).
He revolted to Vassalage in 50 BC (absolutely out of parameters for a Noble game).

Raging barbs: some warrior (lost a chariot :mad: ), perhaps an archer, never seen an axe and the only barb galley who pillaged a food resource manage to do it because my Frigates was far away

To be Continued... with some thought about the UU :(

I think it was done to help the player, actually.

If you conquered him, you got great lands.
If you didn't conquer him, you got a trade partner that was able to keep up with you for awhile and was actually willing to trade with you since he was Mansa Musa, despite being the only AI on the continent.

I think it was done to help the player, actually.

If you conquered him, you got great lands.
If you didn't conquer him, you got a trade partner that was able to keep up with you for awhile and was actually willing to trade with you since he was Mansa Musa, despite being the only AI on the continent.

Didn't know the only AI would trade you, I'd have picked another approach otherwise. :mischief:

I think it was done to help the player, actually.

If you conquered him, you got great lands.
If you didn't conquer him, you got a trade partner that was able to keep up with you for awhile and was actually willing to trade with you since he was Mansa Musa, despite being the only AI on the continent.

This is not wrong, but I felt better to stop trading to avoid he was becoming too advanced.
He has guilds before i has Feudalism, and before i has machinery: can you imagine what can be happen if he decided i was too weak? (and i was, at that time).
As i posted above, luckily he followed the path to Economics (being first, of course). But if he would have followed the path to MT, i was out.

True, i finished with a great land after wiped him, but i needed cannons and janissaries, plus some gren.
A war at this level is usually fought with maces and cats, against longbows and HAs.
That 2 gold hills in Timbuktu FC with the fp/p one was too much for me, especially compared with our start: 1 fur in tundra, iron and wine in 2 barely acceptable cities.
Not to mention the stone out of any decent city FC.
If i started exploring with the chariot only some 4 or 5 turns before, probably i would have take the "sugar barb city", and this is my fault.
I really don't know how someone can have wiped MM with axes and cats, but congrats to them.

I really don't know how someone can have wiped MM with axes and cats, but congrats to them.
Chariots rush and luck. My chariots crushed all his cities except the capital because he already got tons of Skirmishers there. However, he had NONE at his ring cities when I attacked. Then, i just used Chariots to pillage his horse, stood on his golds, and waited for my cats to be abundant. As you can see, my tech was SLOW...:rolleyes:

BTW: I didn't discover IW until pretty late. So, I barely had axes at early AD and most of them were busy defending the vast northern desert. I did send one axe to MM, but he was one block too late for the final battle. So it was a Chariots/Cats rush. :)

@ Amao
Thanks for your answer.
Of course, when i decided my early strategy i didn't know Mansa lands, nor i knew he was my only neighbor.
When i saw stone (turn 2, i think), 2 things jumped on my mind:
raging barbs + stone = GW ASAP
stone = pyramids (pity i forget to revolt to repr. for 500 years... :blush: )

Not having seen much of the land, and knowing usually 1000/800 BC is a safe date for Oracle on Noble, but the bottleneck is research in warlords, i went fot the CS slingshot.

Also, skirmishers are strong enough (4 vs. 3 of a normal archer), and without cats it would be impossible to win.

Anyway, good job :goodjob: , curious to see your next spoiler.

What a great map. What I love about GOTM is that you just know there will be something different about it compared to your normal single player games.

I was pretty depressed about a feeble Noble performance, until reading this thread and seeing that many people had the same problems as I did keeping up with the Mansa Monster.

I settled in place, but got distracted by the Fishing red herring (get it?) and thus wasted tech and building time hooking up food resources that I didn't really need. I really need to pay more attention rather just following the same formula every time.

I fell behind pretty quickly and so the only wonders I got (and am ever likely to get) were Oracle, Great Wall, and Parthenon.

Like others here, this was my first lesson that Great Wall does not extend out to sea. I guess this makes sense - it is a "wall" after all, not a reef.

No copper - my early rush plans went out the door because by the time I got iron, Mansa had longbowmen and crossbowmen (:eek:)

Not really sure what to do from here. Maybe cultural is my only window of opportunity.

I settled in place, but got distracted by the Fishing red herring (get it?) and thus wasted tech and building time hooking up food resources that I didn't really need. I really need to pay more attention rather just following the same formula every time.

I had a hard time resisting the lure of those Fish in my game too... but I did end up putting them off for awhile and I don't think my game suffered for it. I amseriously wondering if the GOTM staff arranged this start to prove to us that it isn't always the best idea to follow the "let my city grow early while I produce Work Boats" strategy.

I hooked up one of the fish early, and hooked up the second one after I had built the Great Library in Istanbul...and I teched faster than I generally do up through 500AD.

Got up to 300ad so far. Keeping up techwise with Mansa afaik. He's got feudalism and HBR, I've got machinery and lit. By way of a change I thought I'd go for astronomy beeline (no meditation, no CS, no theology). Got Oracle about 1200bc for MC, built Glib about 250ad. Founded confucianism and got shrine with first (so far only) GP.
Settled on start, fishing and pottery early on. Second city for horses in north, built a bunch of chariots for fogbusting which went ok, met about a dozen barb warriors and one barb archer, all defeated without loss. Once I'd noticed the gem/marble/sugar spot I rushed a settler down there and beat Mansa by a couple of turns (it also makes an excellent choke point) which subsequently became confucian holy city. Foruth city went on northern iron, it will be a useful fishing village long term and short term meant I could build/whip units if Mansa became feisty.
Next GP is due in 3 turns (66%GS,33%Prophet); don't know what do with a prophet; maybe settle it. A GS could go on optics (saving 9 turns research) or maybe an academy in Istanbul. Not sure on that one. Currently researching construction to build a few cats, combined with crossbows and spears that should provide a reasonable army for the moment.

Looks like PA isn't an option. Main strategy decision at this point is whether to aim to vassalise Mansa or go for annihilation. I also need to Rex the north part of the island, at which point I'm likely to fall behind in research for a while so can't decide how soon to start that. Maybe after optics, maybe after astronomy for ocean trade to subsidise the economy.

Decisions.. decisions...

I hooked up one of the fish early, and hooked up the second one after I had built the Great Library in Istanbul...and I teched faster than I generally do up through 500AD.Yeah, my boats worked great for me (except for the period right after I discovered the GW didn't protect them). As I mentioned in my spoiler post for my game, Istanbul was my commerce AND my production powerhouse, by virtue of being able to whip like mad (giving away 4 population at a time in some cases) and then get those pop back at a rate of about 1 every other turn by working the boats along with the flood plains.

:hammer2: Sorry, see ya in the WOTM08 last spoiler

@Ramzes XIII: isn't it the first spoiler? did you post on the wrong spoiler? ;)

This is not wrong, but I felt better to stop trading to avoid he was becoming too advanced.
He has guilds before i has Feudalism, and before i has machinery: can you imagine what can be happen if he decided i was too weak? (and i was, at that time).
As i posted above, luckily he followed the path to Economics (being first, of course). But if he would have followed the path to MT, i was out.This is the way I felt too, I came to the realization that to win militarily I had to take on MM. At 500 AD I thought that impossible already so I figured I had to go spaceship or diplomatic (guess cultural could have been an option too but I've never tried that)

Like I said in my game summary near the start of the thread, I'm betting that people who took him out early and thus got his primo locations will do great, and those that didn't (and especially those who didn't expand aggressively to the south before he moved into the space, like me) will face some later game dilemmas as I am.

It's interesting to see the different timing of when people attacked MM. Originally I planned to hit him early, but the tech trading had me hold off until roughly 100BC. It took me a while to kill him with HAs and Cats, but the collat damage of Cats can weaken Long Bows (which he got soon into our war) pretty well, so it wasn't that hard to kill him off about the same time that I was getting Astro.

Doc TK - did you manage to trade with MM? He didn't want to trade with me (perhaps because I stole his worker :lol:)

I wonder which strategy was best. The worker steal I did delayed MM since I also razed the gold on the treasure hill. OTOH, trading tech may enable earlier attack on him, which eventually leads to earlier conquest/domination date. On the third hand, tech trade with MM makes him more advanced and harder to kill.

its amazing to read these post.

people simply make up stories in here its insane. Play the game, have fun, but coming in here to make up a game...lame

@molson: what are you talking about? how is sharing how our games went with each other 'making up stories' and lame?

The whole idea of the GOTM is to play the same game and share how we played to get ideas on how to do better...if that's not your idea of fun, either go play something else, or just ignore us...no reason to insult everyone.

:mischief: :sniff: Do I smell troll?

sniff: Smells like a pretty young troll.

sniff: Smells like a pretty young troll.

Is a young troll called a gonk? http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/22131/gonk.jpg

Mommy, daddy, can I feed the trolls? Pwease? :lol:

@molson: what are you talking about? how is sharing how our games went with each other 'making up stories' and lame?

The whole idea of the GOTM is to play the same game and share how we played to get ideas on how to do better...if that's not your idea of fun, either go play something else, or just ignore us...no reason to insult everyone.

its simple, you read some of these post and you see thats certain event described in write-ups arent possible in this given scenario. I didnt say all written here was made up. It just jumps to your face...

its simple, you read some of these post and you see thats certain event described in write-ups arent possible in this given scenario. I didnt say all written here was made up. It just jumps to your face...

Why dont you identify exactly which. Then, the person involved can clarify what he means. (And making up stories would be extremely shortsighted, since everything can be checked when the logs are made public after the results are released).

its amazing to read these post.

people simply make up stories in here its insane. Play the game, have fun, but coming in here to make up a game...lamelol, god forbid that one should waste any time being SOCIAL, swapping sotries about what you did! Better to sit in front of your screen and keep playing in a new game, mute and detached. Now THAT is much more fun! :rolleyes:

Hey molson, I'm playing along in this game and reading the events of others games. There is nothing I have seen which jumps into my face. I think you'd be suprised at how good at this game some people are. Have a look at last months reports, finished by 100ad on immortal!!! Maybe some people cheat and play twice/reload or make up a porky or 2 but not many.

:hammer2: Sorry, see ya in the WOTM08 last spoiler What he said.

Just finished last night, so its all in the final spoiler.

Will say that like many others, the early game is not the easy cruise I was expecting ... too much sand! :cry: How in the world am I 200 score points behind MM on NOBLE ?! :crazyeye: :sad:

dV

... finished last night...

dV

Yeah! You're right, after finish early in the morning you cannot see the difference between the first spoiler and the last one, and the mistake is obivious only after your proud result is sitting on the wrong place. :D

edit: wrong thread

Vulcans, I'm afraid your post ended up in the wrong spoiler thread! It sounds like you've been playing GOTM18...

It's hard to tell if your late or not in your war with Washington. Let's see when you post your final spoiler? Good luck.