Well ,we finaly got our sub forum's (thank you TF :) ) ,and i already started with moving a number of thread's to their respected forum's.To give a bit of explenation ,this is where the subforum's are for:

gouverment:
obviously ,this forum is where the leader's post their thread's related to their function ,and post their decission's.By default this forum is for leader's only and no citizin's should post in it ,although i fear that this rule won't stand long.Anyway ,i will not allow for normal citizin's to open new thread in that forum ,so they would be closed at the spot.
This forum is also used for cabinet vote's and discussion's among leader's.

Citizin's:
Again ,obviously this is the forum where the citizin's will hold their discussion's ,where citizin poll's will be held ,etc...

General information:
this is the forum where we will concentrate all the information one can need.This is the forum where we will keep foir ex the turn chat thread ,the constitution and game rule's ,screenshot's and information about our nation ,etc.


Now we are only just starting with using sub forum's ,so in the beginning thing's may be a bit complicated and such.

If you have any question's ,comment's or proposition's please post them here.
The more feedback i get the better i can work trough this transition.

It's good to have you back, Duck. Hope everything is well. To be honest, the new format confused the hell out of me. I'll get used to it though, and I think it will lend more organization to the demo game. The government forum should be very useful in this respect, particularly to the president before the turn chat.

It has added more order to the threads, at least. No need to scroll down thru so many stickies. :goodjob:

now we should start to organize the forums...
do we really like it as it is?

from the chat-session today, i bring one proposal for the usage:

demogame-forum:
important information (sticky): this will be for example the newspaper, link to constitution, explanation of the game, registry, etc.
polls: sticky=active, unsticky=inactive


sub-forum general-info (to be renamed, for example "turns"):
1 thread for each turn with the savegame, the chatlog and the map(s) as posts in it.

sub-forum government and citizens:
as they are now...


and one point:
we wont get more than 3 sub-forums. so we have to live with it!

NOW START THE DISCUSSION IN HERE! or be quite forever ;-)

I still think we should separate one of the subforums out as a "next turn" sub-forum. As the game progresses, our constant searching for posts that contain that vital piece of info will become progressively longer and harder to accomplish. I realize its asking alot to use one subforum just for this, but the President really does need his Administrative Assistant, and a sub-forum can't be bought or tricked. By having just the Leaders and Governors post their requests and demands before hand, everyone will be able to find them easily. If they are not posted in the AA sub-forum...they don't exist. Presidents prerogative on any issue that's not posted. No more wasting countless minutes trying to find a lost thread or remembering what was said or what the ruling on the poll was. At least this will help.

we could add this to the "turns" thread of my proposal. so there will be all turn-related info (logs, saves, maps) of the old turns and your info, for the upcoming turn and archived in there.

I think that's a great idea. The general info forum is rarely used....

Yes the general info sub is rarely used.The thing i am worried about with making a "turn" sub is that a lot of decission's will be made in the other sub's anyway ,in seperate thread's or in gouvermental thread's.We mod's could move all those decission's that are made in seperate to the turn sub (wich would be unpracticle though ,both for us and for te citizin's) ,but we can't move decission's that are made in gouverment thread's. (and these thread's belong in the gouverment forum)

Exactly Duck. That would be asking for way too much work from you and Duke. You would have to be constantly moving threads. That's why its the responsibilty of the Leaders to post.

Exactly Duck. That would be asking for way too much work from you and Duke. You would have to be constantly moving threads. That's why its the responsibilty of the Leaders to post.

Yep ,but then again that's what the Goverment forum is actually for.The instruction's that the president needs are ment to be posted there.

That's my point Duck. Why isn't it being done? Why does the Prez (or whoever) have to search the first half hour of each chat to find the info. This concept you have for the Govt. forum works fine for the Govt. stuff, but "next turn" stuff is always lost. That's what needs to be addressed. Keep the Govt. forum as is. Set up a new "next turn" system.

Maybe it's a matter of preparation, or everyone just getting use to the layout of the threads.

If the layout of the threads that are within the forums, needs to be changed, we can do that. Maybe where people post stuff is just not the 'best' forum.

This may also touch on the what the duties of the VP should be. Instead of simply being a 'back-up' in case the president doesn't make it to a chat, they should be the one who organizes all the turn info for the next chat.

This may also touch on the what the duties of the VP should be. Instead of simply being a 'back-up' in case the president doesn't make it to a chat, they should be the one who organizes all the turn info for the next chat.

There we go ,that's what we need.Nice proposition Duke. :goodjob:
And now i thought of this ,to organize it smoothly i would propose the following system.

One thread named "Turn Decission's".The vice president open's it ,and gather's all info from the vote's in it for every turn.Then ,the other official's post a summery of their decission's in that thread for every turn.That way we can keep the Department thread's for in goverment discussion's.
The vice president always posts the first reply of every turn ,and the other official's come next in a random order.The vice will give the turn nuber (in large sized font) and information at front of his reply every turn ,so that the president can easely find wich posts are for wich turn.(that is ,all the reply's under the vice's reply)
The president will post a reply on the end of the turn with the ending date (in large sized font) ,the thing's that have happend and decissions been made in the turn ,the save game will be uploaded on that reply also.

And that thread will come under the main forum ,so will all the thread's from the information forum be moved to the main forum ,as the information forum will be banned unless a good alternative can be found for it.

Any comment's ,question's ,proposition's ,please post ,feedback needed. :rolleyes:

Sincerely ,youre overlord. ;)

Let me start off by saying thank you to both Duke and Duck for responding to my posts. It's greatly appreciated. I truly enjoy participating in this forum and Demo game to the fullest extent. The concept of the game was a flash of brilliance, it hit the ground running and hasn't stopped once. I am proud to have become a part of it. That's why I feel I must respond with comments and proposals. I feel I must contribute some feedback to test the envelope, so to speak.

Duck, it appears that I have made you mad. This was not my intent. I merely saw a problem in the game and a way to fix it. The only way to communicate here is to type these messages in these little boxes. You can't hear my tone of voice or any mannerisms of speech, so how could I expect you to pick up the true intent of anything I say. I become angry myself sometimes, especially when I can't express myself well enough for others to understand. But this is what everyone must deal with here. No big revelation. I'm sorry if I've angered you.

I do have a lot more to say but this is probably not the box to type it in.

Duck, it appears that I have made you mad. This was not my intent. I merely saw a problem in the game and a way to fix it. The only way to communicate here is to type these messages in these little boxes. You can't hear my tone of voice or any mannerisms of speech, so how could I expect you to pick up the true intent of anything I say. I become angry myself sometimes, especially when I can't express myself well enough for others to understand. But this is what everyone must deal with here. No big revelation. I'm sorry if I've angered you.

Huh. :confused:

What are you talking about Cyc? I am not mad at you at al.I am only trying to organize the forum in a way that it's good for both the reguler and new citizin's and te goverment itself.

I am glad you contributed youre idea's here ,although i didn't i didn't incoorperate them ,but that was more a "professional" decission than a personal decission.

So don't worry ,you didn't make me mad at all.

but what about having the maps/logs/saves in one thread?
maybe i have another proposal:
we make a thread for every turn chat, title is the starting date. the first post will be when the chat takes place and beneath all the decisions, brought there by the vice (as you proposed, duck). so the pres finds all he needs in one thread. after the chat, the pres (or dedicated player) will also put the save, the logs and the updated maps in this thread, so the citizens and departments find everything they need for understanding the turn in one thread.
i think it doesnt matter whether we use a own subforum for those threads (would keep main forum clean) or put them in the main forum. but the last-turn thread and the upcoming-turn thread should be sticky.

That's basically how we have it in the Civ 2 Democ Game. We have a new thread for each turn and the old turn thread is closed. That way everyone can find the current information at the same spot each time. The turn thread has our 'log', saved game, and screen shots.

That is also why I wanted the Term 2 department heads to make new threads for their departments. It would get very confusing and almost impossible to find the relivant information if we tried to keep the same thread open the entire game.

ok. so why dont we do it like this here?

Originally posted by disorganizer
ok. so why dont we do it like this here?

It can be. It just so happens that's how we decided to do it in the Civ 2 game. It's up to you guys to decide how you want it here. :)

This plan is fine by me. Any plan that stops the constant searching at the beginning of a chat is fine with me. This plan differs from what I would do, in that I would:

combine the ideas for the "turn" forum as stated above, *EDIT* - I guess we wouldn't be able to combine as stated above.* but have 6 sticky threads started by each leader of a Department (the at large council members do not have Departmental responsibilities, but i wouldn't object to one sticky for the both of them) After each turn chat each Leader must post instructions in their thread. If the Prez want to know about Domestic instructions, he goes to that thread. Foreign Affairs, he goes to that thread. Each time he goes to a thread he goes to the last post. If the last post isn't dated after the last chat, he is free to do as he pleases in this case. I feel the reason for having a thread (sticky) for each leader is multi-faceted as not only will the Prez be able to go to the Dept. in question to find his answer, but the citizens will be able to follow the Leaders proposals and requests (as they pertain to chat instructions, not political mumbo jumbo!) in an organized manner instead of combing through countless threads. The Leaders will also find this structure easy to use as they will not have wait for a thread to be posted for them to use, they can just go to their sticky and post whenever. The additional threads for the "general Info" forum could also be included here as we already have threads for "chat logs" "saved game" "maps" etc. Why change this? IMHO this proposal would make it easier on everyone. Which brings up the Vice-President issue. Eyrei does the work of 3 men already. Please don't throw the other Leaders responsibility on his shoulders. If the Leaders don't want to post in the "next turn" thread, fine. They probably won't get elected next term, and this way will make it easy to follow. It is a simple way of solving the problem and an easy way of keeping the Leaders accountable in their responsibilities.

Which brings up the Vice-President issue. Eyrei does the work of 3 men already. Please don't throw the other Leaders responsibilty on his shoulders. If the Leaders don't want to post in the "next turn" thread, fine. They probably won't get elected next term, and this way will make it easy to follow. It is a simple way of solving the problem and an easy way of keeping the Leaders accountable in thier responsibilties.

I agree that eyrei has plenty to do right now. It was a thought to be established with the next election. Instead of appointing the Leader that is next in the COC, we make sure there is either a VP by means of a runner up of the presidency, or hold a separate election for it, or allow the Pres to appoint one; as the Leaders do when they don't have deputies.

As you can see by the 5/10 and 5/12 Chat Instruction threads, that system isn't working, as half the instructions for 5/12 went on the 5/10 thread as there was no 5/12 thread until Donsig had the sense to make one. It's easy to see everyone needs to ability to post for themselves.

We also need a Chain of Command thread that's sticky. I know I saw a thread that had something about the COC, but I can't find it. The COC thread should have the cabinet positions, and who's in them for the current term. It could be put in the Government sub-folder.

I think another problem is that the important turn-chat related threads are mixed in with other threads, and other forums. We had a bit of a problem in 5/12's turn chat with that. We need more stickies, but the forums might get clogged with them. :)

There needs to be something like this:

Sticky: Turn Chat Requests (to be cleared every time the chat ends, or made unsticky and closed)

Sticky: Provincal Requests (for all of the provinces)

Sticky: Links to current polls (maybe one person could be designated to update this list).


And one other thing that could go in the main forum (not the sub-forums).

A turn-chat "story" like the one in the Civ2 Demogame.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22269

Originally posted by Duke of Marlbrough
I agree that eyrei has plenty to do right now. It was a thought to be established with the next election. Instead of appointing the Leader that is next in the COC, we make sure there is either a VP by means of a runner up of the presidency, or hold a separate election for it, or allow the Pres to appoint one; as the Leaders do when they don't have deputies.

You know I wondered how eyrei was 'automatically' picked to be vice-president for term two. I didn't say anything at the time because I already point out so much constitutional stuff as it is.

BUT the constitution already says that the president is a department head with all the rights of a dept. head. I had assumed that since there was no runner up in the presidential election that Grey Fox would appoint a VP based on the clauses in Section C, article 4 and Section I, article 6.

The constitution is here. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=19271)

Here's my ideas for reorganization:

The turn instructions are working well now. Just make sure to close them after the turn chat to avoid posting errors.

Get rid of the General sub-forum. Move this info to the Government sub-forum or main forum as appropriate. Create a new sub-forum called File Cabinet. When a thread is finished, move it to the File Cabinet. That way it's around if it ever needs to be referenced but isn't getting in the way in the sub-forums that are busy.

just call it archive and all will know where to search ;-)

who will decide which posts to move there?

The threads that are no longer being posted to will drop down the page for each forum. They do not need to be moved to a separate forum to keep them out of the way. Any relivant threads will alwasy be at the top of the forum pages.

If people do not want to see old threads, they can change the default view date to a lesser amount of days for the forums.

You know I wondered how eyrei was 'automatically' picked to be vice-president for term two. I didn't say anything at the time because I already point out so much constitutional stuff as it is.

The Domestic Leader is appointed the Vice President because it does not affect the chain of command. Since that seems to be the only real role of the VP, it does seem logical, plus that was the precidence set in Term 1, and unless it is clarified/changed that is how it will continue. I would like to think that we would actually have more than one person running for President some day. :)

Main Forum - Game play related information
Turn instructions
Save Games
Turn summaries & Chat Logs
Constitution
Census
Needed Stuff
What is the Demo Game? (intro thread)
Screenshots
Province Map

Government Sub-forum - Government related information
Government Threads
Council Votes
Elected/Appointed Officials Listing
Province Threads
Budget
Trade Table
Election threads (nominations, polls)

Citizen Sub-forum - Citizen related information
Citizen groups
Discussions
City threads

Poll Sub-forum - Polls
All polls except Council Votes

Comments? I thought polls should have their own sub-forum to keep them organized. They're intrusive in the Citizen forum and several people have commented that they'd like these better organized. It may help voter turnout too if people can go and see right away what polls are current. This proposal basically moves "General" back into the main forum. I've probably missed some of the individual threads but it should be pretty easy to see where they go with this set up.

Any comments/suggestions on my proposal?

i would say: give it a try!
the only thing we should use aditionally: the proposal for the "turn-threads".
starting a thread for each chat-turn with the old chat-turns save and the date and time it starts as first post, the following posts should be the recommendations of the departments, the next post will be the post used for interim save during chat-turn and the last posts will be a plain-text summary of the turn+log+save+maps.
after this post the thread is closed and the next thread is opened

Originally posted by disorganizer
starting a thread for each chat-turn with the old chat-turns save and the date and time it starts as first post, the following posts should be the recommendations of the departments, the next post will be the post used for interim save during chat-turn and the last posts will be a plain-text summary of the turn+log+save+maps.
after this post the thread is closed and the next thread is opened
That's an excellent idea for organizing and also cuts out a bit more clutter. Plus, we're already half way there with the turn chat instruction threads! :)

I'll wait a bit longer for more responses then I'll start up a poll.

I like the 2 recent ideas. They should improve things.

One thing that causes clutter to me is the present form of the citizens forum. In it, we discuss pretty much everything. I find it bothersome though, that every odd post is often an in-game debate and every even post is a game mechanics debate. I wish the two were separated, so if I was only interested in how the game is going, I could check one spot. I think it kinda takes away from the game experience when I find debates on how the game should be played next to a city location debate.

I'm trying to imagine what it might be like for someone new who is looking at it & trying to figure out why the rules change & trying to also keep track of Phoenetica's priorities. Perhaps we do not have room for all that, but that is something I find bothersome.

After taking a closer look at Shaitan's proposal, I'm not sure if a separate "poll" forum is necessary. Stickied threads in the citizens' forum seems ok to me. Changing the Poll forum to a Game Mechanics forum might be one idea - to include the game rules & intros & also debate on the rules.

We have a lot of polls, but relatively low voting. I think it would help a lot if people had one place to look to see the active polls. We could move game mechanics related discussions to the main forum and reserve the Citizen forum for game play discussions. The problem though is that a lot of these discussions grow from one to the other. A discussion on whether to rush a certain improvement somewhere can turn into a debate on the rules, for example.

i again second the poll-subforum idea. so ALL polls should go there. IMHO, also the cabinet-polls. and the poll-related discussion should maybe also moved there.
if you want to know about the game, then you can look to the polls (sticky=active, unsticky=old) and the related threads.
btw: old threads and polls should be closed by the mods.

to get the focus to some things in the citizens forum, we could use the stickyness and maybe close some old and obsolete threads there.

I'd like to keep the discussions separate from the polls themselves. As some discussions lead to polls and others don't, there wouldn't be any easy way to keep this rule. Also, we should keep the poll subforum very tidy so it's a snap to take a peek and see exactly what's up there.

ok. so would it be ok to force poll-posters to also post a link to the coresponding discussion thread in the citizen forum in the poll (maybe last line of description)?
we could the only have polls (active=sticky) in this subforum

Absolutely, yes. Any poll posted should link to the corresponding discussion. Some exceptions would be emergency polls where there was no discussion or flat opinion (feedback) polls. Any poll that did have a discussion should definitely reference it.

well, so if we have our next constitution change, we should make this a rule. (just remember if we are far enough with our "are the cabinet-polls obsolete"-thread in the citizen forum)

Here's what I've got. Comments are requested.

Proposal for realignment of the Demo Game forum

Main Forum - Game play related information
Chat Turn Threads
Constitution
Census
Needed Stuff
What is the Demo Game? (intro thread)
Province Map

Government Sub-forum - Government related information
Government Threads
Elected/Appointed Officials Listing
Province Threads
Budget
Trade Table
Election threads (nominations, polls)

Citizen Sub-forum - Citizen related information
Citizen groups
Discussions
City threads

Poll Sub-forum – Polls
Citizen Polls
Council Votes


Proposal for the Chat Turn Thread (Format & Use)
First post contains the date and time of the chat and the save game that will be used.
Following posts contain chat turn instructions from the officials.
The next post is used to upload the intermittent saves during the chat and the final save when the chat is concluded.
The next posts contains the turn summary, chat log and screenshots.
The thread is closed after all info has been posted.

Shaitan, you are seemingly lumping poll procedures in with your sub-forum suggestions. They are separate things and should be discussed as such. The poll procedure thread is now buried, but they are now being standardized in a thread covering a different topic. As you are a major poller (is that a word? pollist?...), you should be discussing these procedures out in the open with the rest of the citizens, not under the guise of forum reform. Please stop this and resume discussion of poll procedures in the appropriate thread.

Yes, they are related, but the overall form and function of the Forum is the concentration of this thread and the polls being worked on from it. Polls are a secondary consideration to this discussion. As we have continuous and constructive discussion on these issues in this thread I will press forward with the decisions made by the debaters here and present them for approval by the citizens via poll when we have workable polls developed.

Exactly Shaitan. You will push forward your poll procedures in a sub-forum agenda. Go ahead. If you can continue to pull the wool over their eyes, I guess you deserve what you can get.

What on earth is going on in this thread?

Cyc: I am not sure how posting polls can be misleading.

Shaitan: You might want to put this up for discussion in the Citizens forum, as I don't think most people will notice it here.

I've asked the Mods to move this thread into the Citizens sub-forum.

Cyc - I will continue to push forward elements of change that are related to the other changes being discussed. Yes, they do contain poll procedures. The "Poll Procedures" thread died from non-use. I have no problem with handling aspects of it as they apply to current discussion.