First Budget Proposal

Current Treasury: 480(will be 476 on the turn we come out of anarchy)

Treasury Allocation:

Foreign Affairs: 30% (144 gold) I feel we need to set the basis for good future relations with our neighbors. This money can be used at the discretion of the foreign minister, though I suggest using it to esablish embassies.

Military: 30% (144 gold) As we are still at war with several civs,
this money can be used at the discretion of the military leader. Also, the military department may build barracks and walls as it wishes, in cities that border other civs. Note, this is a referance to the domestic departments willingness to pay upkeep, the governor of these cities must also be consulted.

Culture: 30% (144 gold) As we can still build culture buildings that will benefit from the age bonus, this money can be used at the discretion of the culture minister to rush-build. It should pay for a library in a city that has put a few shields towards it.

National Treasury: 10% (44 gold) I realize this is a small amount, and normally, a good chunk of what is allocated now for foreign affairs will be in this category. Right now we need embassies, however. The domestic department has given what would have been it's share to the culture department for the time being. This will be updated soon. The science department will not have a budget until the Great Library is obsolete. Since we cannot trade resources and luxuries yet, the trade department does not have a budget. Once we can, I hope we will actually make money off trade, rather than spend it. We do have iron and horses, plus several luxuries, so most trade should be outgoing, hopefully for gold.

The allocation of science/luxuries/taxes will be reassessed after the next turn. Currently, it should stay at 100% taxes, with one citizen acting as a scientist as we research chivalry.

This is not a final budget, but please respond soon if you have any objections or comments.

Also, a secretary of the treasury is needed to keep track of these
numbers, as departments are free to save their money. I hope that the Domestic Department Deputy, Donsig, will take on this task.

Is the 30-30-30-10 % splits based ont he current "bank account" or the current and future income status?

I believe our income is in the 150 gold per turn range. Would the splits you are talking about split the 150 gold per turn 45-45-45-15 ?

Or are you talking about splitting the income as it comes it including the current treasury?

Or is this a one time grant splitting up the current treasury? (144 gold is not much in this day and age. After all, we're coming up on the 5th century :p :lol: )

In any case I agree to this type of managment of the income. I feel that the foreign affairs department needs a peice of the pie to estabvlish embassies and solidify our position as the superpower. Also the military needs a have a budget in place otherwise we will always end up argueing over guns or butter. The culture and domestic departments kind of go hand in hand as one benifits the other.

Is the 30-30-30-10 % splits based ont he current "bank account" or the current and future income status?

Since our Domestic Leader has included actual amounts of gold (144 gold each to Foreign Affairs, Military and Culture, with 44 to remain in the treasury) I think he is suggesting an allocation of our current funds with the idea that new funds go into the treasury and will be divvied up at a later date so as to give him time to reassess our country's needs.

Also, a secretary of the treasury is needed to keep track of these numbers, as departments are free to save their money. I hope that the Domestic Department Deputy, Donsig, will take on this task.

I just had a discussion today with my wife about a business venture she wants to embark on. She had asked me if I would do the book keeping for her. Knowing my wife as I do I pointed out to her that I can't keep track of what she is doing if she does not inform me of what she is doing! I would point out the same thing here. I am more than willing to record how much each department spends provided the information on our expenditures is availabe - either from the various departments or the turn chat log.

I hope the departments can provide you with information about spending. What needs to be done, is someone from each department needs to post the use of any money before the turns begin. Then, when the president uses it, he needs to make this very clear in the log.

All money gained during the turn is temporarily put in the national treasury until the turn is over. In an emergency, the president can use this money, but normally it will be split up after the turn is complete. This money can be accessed by a department during the turns, if the issue is put to a vote before hand. Departmental funds may be saved, so this money needs to be subtracted from the total before funds are parcelled out after a turn. For example, if the department of foreign affairs has 25 gold left after establishing embassies during the next turn, and the national treasury is 250 after the turn. Only 225 is divided at that point between the departments.

Note that a department does not need any sort of approval to use money that is in its budget, unless it will require upkeep(gold/turn). This should help streamline the game a little as our empire grows.

I am still trying to figure out how to deal with governors and provinces. My thought, at the moment, is that a governor would petition the domestic leader for funds to rush a project. In many cases, these funds would just be offered without a request, as the needs become obvious.

Please post any ideas or questions you have about this. We should be able to implement a system like this, though it may take a little while to work out the kinks.

I will try to work on a book keeping thread tonight. In addition to the treasury amount there will be trade and foreign ministry deals that that generate lump sums of gold and possibly gold/turn as well. We may also have deals where we pay gold/turn. These will all have to be reflectedin our budgetary process.

Unless otherwise allocated ahead of time, any money from trade or diplomatic agreements should remain in the national treasury, barring an emergency, until the end of the turn. Gold/turn agreements in which we pay, I will generally put to a vote if over 2 gold/turn. As the citizenry will have voted, these will not come out of any departmental budget.

We will probably need to decide how many units our military is allowed, particularly if we mvoe to republic, as too many units could seriously affect our economy. Hopefully, though, our economy will be able to keep up, as we need a strong military.

I completely agree with the idea that the monies gained during one "turn" be put in the treasury to be divided up at the end of the "turn." I think this is the smartest and simplest approach.
The bookeeping thread would be a good idea. I know I will follow it closely. Just try to keep it simple for people who have a hard time following the numbers. (ie Balance sheet and income statements would be good. But a statement of cash flows might be too much :eek: )

With my current experience with civ 3, going from Despotism to republic is an ok jump in the units/gold end of it as the significantly reduced corruption makes up what is needed. I think we will be ok as a republic with the current number of units.

I feel quite confident of our nation making a sucessful transition from despotism to republic. That includes the relationships we have with the other civs and the income situation. It really does help that we wiped out the americans and are hammering the egyptians that other nations have backed off. If I remember right, everyone want peace with us and the trend of improving "attitudes" towards our civ by other civs is being displayed.

I see the advantages of putting all ongoing income into the treasury until the end of each chat turn, as it allows for better planning, but based on tonights turns, we may need to make some allowances for adjustments or borrowing against the treasury to complete purchases. For example, Falcon had 144 gold on the first turn, to use to upgrade two horsemen, but the total turned out to be 160. He had to "borrow" that from the treasury, otherwise his 144 would do no good until the next turn chat. Similarly, the next turn I wanted to use my budgeted 144 to rush a library, which cost 152. I assumed we had 30% of our first turn's income (51*30%=15), so no problem, but if we dont count that, I either had to "borrow" the 8 gold, or request the president to release that amount from the treasury. That may be the best solution, request presidential approval for budget overages, as long as they are small (10-15%). As I said, I don't want to complicate the process, but I also don't want to see anyone unable to implement their plans because they are 15 gold short, while we build up 300 in the treasury.

I think the "borrowing" rule is a great idea. I think it should be defined as a percentage. (ie if you have 144 and you need 150 which is like 4% no problem but maybe if you want like 25% that might be a bit much without a vote of some kind)

I suggest that up to 5% of the total cost of an action may be borrowed if their is that much in the discretionary budget with the approval of the president. If the money would have to infringe upon another departments budget, the president may also approve this if it is an emergency. If the leader of that department is at the chat, he may simply agree to loan some gold to the requestor.

I suggest that leaders post about what they need, and how much each part of their needs will cost, so that money can be allocated based on this. Right now, I am doing it in a very general sense based on my perception of the general needs of the empire. If you need something, ask, and if I can, I will include that money in your budget. If we are diligent about this, there should only need to be borrowing in emergencies.

maybe we should hire an accountant? to keep track of all this, and we can post all expenditures in the accountant's thread. Leave you and the rest of us officials more time to worry about the important stuff, rather then figuring out how much money we owe, how long till it will be paid off, and how much money we have left.

Foreign Affairs did not spend any gold.

Military spend 96 gold on a barracks and 80 gold upgrading 4 spearmen to pikemen.

Culture spent 144 gold on a library for Abydos and 56 on another rush job.

We have 960 gold in the treasury.
345 belongs to foreign affairs.
145 to culture.
169 to military.
301 left for reallocation.

We are currently making 10 gold/turn because of increased spending on research now that the Great Library has been rendered obsolete.

Science may need a budget for buying techs.

Trade may need one for making trades or rushing markets.

Military still needs money for upgrades esp. with gunpowder around the corner.

Does foreign affairs with to return part of it's savings to the general fund?

Culture still needs money.

The provinces should be given an appropriation to help pay expenses on their improvements.

Domestic should have a little gold for general puposes.

We still need a reserve fund.

Don't forget the :beer: budget!:D

Originally posted by donsig
Does foreign affairs with to return part of it's savings to the general fund?
Probably not. I still need to do a game analysis after my brief hiatus but I've got projects earmarked for more than that much money already.

New Budget

National Budget: 10% should be in luxury spending, the rest should be arranged so that we spend the most we can on science while making at least 10gpt.

Military: 20% (we are no longer at war)
Trade: 20%
Science: science funds are allocated as part of the national
budget
Foreign affairs: the foreign affairs department has a nice
treasury already, please let me know if more is
needed for some reason.
Domestic and culture: 60% (would the governors please post any
ideas about how to spend this)

I strongly recommend that close attention be paid to our tax/sci/lux rates as micromanagement can speed research whithout losing gold. I am wary of locking in rates.

Resetting the lux rate to 10 % is a good move now. Doing that and putting some entertainers to work and lowering sci to 40% will still get us gunpowder in 2 turns and net us 26 gold/turn.

When one turn away from gunpowder we should see if we can lower the sci rate to gain more gold while still getting gunpowder in one trun. The sci rate could then be upped after gunpowder is learned. We should consider running a small deficit if it speeds up research. Lowering the sci rate when a turn away from a tech usually recoups the deficit and more.

The following cities have entertainers that need to get to work when the lux rate is put back up to 10%:

PDX, Pherris, Washington, Khatovar, Philadelphia, Boston, New York.

Who pays for techs if we buy them?

Why is culture's appropriation now bundled with domestic? Not only makes book keeping difficult but deciding when to rush cultural buildings now means culture must get permission from domestic?

Using eyrei's newest budget here are the figures:

Military: 145 saved + 60 (20%) = 229 gold
Foreign Affairs: 345 gold saved
Trade: 60 gold
Science: nothing to spend
Culture: 145 gold saved + ?????
Domestic & Culture: 181 gold (60%)

Total 960 gold

Originally posted by donsig
I strongly recommend that close attention be paid to our tax/sci/lux rates as micromanagement can speed research whithout losing gold. I am wary of locking in rates.

Resetting the lux rate to 10 % is a good move now. Doing that and putting some entertainers to work and lowering sci to 40% will still get us gunpowder in 2 turns and net us 26 gold/turn.

When one turn away from gunpowder we should see if we can lower the sci rate to gain more gold while still getting gunpowder in one trun. The sci rate could then be upped after gunpowder is learned. We should consider running a small deficit if it speeds up research. Lowering the sci rate when a turn away from a tech usually recoups the deficit and more.

The following cities have entertainers that need to get to work when the lux rate is put back up to 10%:

PDX, Pherris, Washington, Khatovar, Philadelphia, Boston, New York.

I agree that some management of this will need to be done during the chat turn. In the cities of Philadephia and New York, I would like to try to get WLTK days going, which may happen if those entertainers are left where they are. If this does not cause a WLTK day, then they should be put to work.

I do not want to run in a deficit unless we are rushing for something in an emergency. We will need money for many things, including the purchase of technology.

Originally posted by donsig
Who pays for techs if we buy them?

Why is culture's appropriation now bundled with domestic? Not only makes book keeping difficult but deciding when to rush cultural buildings now means culture must get permission from domestic?

Using eyrei's newest budget here are the figures:

Military: 145 saved + 60 (20%) = 229 gold
Foreign Affairs: 345 gold saved
Trade: 60 gold
Science: nothing to spend
Culture: 145 gold saved + ?????
Domestic & Culture: 181 gold (60%)

Total 960 gold

The reason for the grouping of culture and domestic is to provide more options as far as rushing. I suspect most of the buildings we rush will be cultural buildings. Go ahead and keep them separate if it makes it easier, and if the combined gold is used to rush it will come out of the culture department budget first if it is a cultural improvement, and out of the domestic department's first if anything else.

Right now it looks as tho Doemestic and Culture have 576 gold

Trade and Military each have 192 gold

that's a 60/20/20 split.

with the general fund getting 10%, that's 110% of income.

Originally posted by Cyc
Right now it looks as tho Doemestic and Culture have 576 gold

Trade and Military each have 192 gold

that's a 60/20/20 split.

with the general fund getting 10%, that's 110% of income.

No additional funds were allocated for the general fund this turn.

originally posted by donsig:
Using eyrei's newest budget here are the figures:

Military: 145 saved + 60 (20%) = 229 gold
Foreign Affairs: 345 gold saved
Trade: 60 gold
Science: nothing to spend
Culture: 145 gold saved + ?????
Domestic & Culture: 181 gold (60%)

Total 960 gold

originally posted by Cyc:
Right now it looks as tho Doemestic and Culture have 576 gold

Trade and Military each have 192 gold

that's a 60/20/20 split.

with the general fund getting 10%, that's 110% of income.

Eyrei please clarify this. My figures take into account what each department has saved. I think Cyc is taking the current treasury and splitting it without taking these savings into account.

Originally posted by donsig
originally posted by donsig:




Eyrei please clarify this. My figures take into account what each department has saved. I think Cyc is taking the current treasury and splitting it without taking these savings into account.

Yes, you are right. Please see the earlier posts, Cyc. Departments are free to save their money. That is why the math is somewhat confusing. Existing departmental treasuries must first be subtracted from the whole, and then the percentages are applied to find what is added to each department's budget.

I like the proposals & wonder if the suggested luxuries rate & citizen optimizations should go into the chat instructions thread. However, I may be wrong. Are they recommendations or instructions? Or, just thoughts?

accounts as of 680 AD
Military: 229 gold
Foreign Affairs: 345 gold
Trade: 60 gold
Science: 0 gold
Culture: 145 gold
Domestic & Culture: 181 gold
Total 960 gold

Expenditures
Military: 0 gold
Foreign Affairs: 295 (64 gold for library in Macao, 231 returned to treasury)
Trade: 0 gold
Culture: 320 gold for 4 libraries
Domestic: 0 gold
Total Expenditures: 615 gold

account balances as of 780 AD
Military: 229 gold
Foreign Affairs: 50 gold
Trade: 60 gold
Science: 0 gold
Culture: 0 gold
Domestic & Culture: 0 gold
Treasury available for appropriation 640 gold:
Total 979 gold

Just wondering, was Trade Dept. supposed to receive 20% of income according to Eyrei's latest budget review? Our balance has remained at 60g since 680AD.

Zur. Your budget will not change until I have done the new one.

Department leaders (if anyone else has a proposal, please post it as well) please post any budget requests you have ASAP so I can better allocate the treasury. If your proposal would require more than 30% of the treasury, please post it in the citizens sub forum for discussion

Donsig, thanks for doing the budget numbers. Would you edit your post to reflect 0 gold in the culture departments treasury, and subtract 12 from the national treasury?

I edited Culture to reflect a zero gold balance. Since I wasn't really sure how to handle the 'borrowing' the (-12 gold) was not reflected in the treasury figures so no adjustment to them is needed. There should be 979 gold in the pot now with 339 saved up by FA, Trade and military leaving an actual 640 gold to be disbursed.

BTW, should we turn 'domestic & culture' into domestic?

Eyrei:Zur. Your budget will not change until I have done the new one.

Not change as in does it remain at 20% of income?

If so, then it should be above 60g now due to income from last 10 turns. Pls. clarify.

Budget as of May 17

Military Department: 229 + 71 + 300 (enough to upgrade 5 pikemen to musketmen)
Foreign Affairs: 50
Trade: 60 + 100 = 160 (I would like to see this money + the science departments budget be used towards acquiring technology from our neighbors)
Culture: 120 (to rush libraries in Byblos and Elephantine)
Science: 100
Domestic: 200 (I would like to use this to rush a harbor in Eyr to keep that city growing, but probably not until the next set of turns)
National: 191


I hope that answers your question, Zur.;)

Eyrei, please specify what can or can't be done with the 'national' appropriation. Can it be spent (or borrowed agaist) at all and if so under what circumstances?

Originally posted by donsig
Eyrei, please specify what can or can't be done with the 'national' appropriation. Can it be spent (or borrowed agaist) at all and if so under what circumstances?

My take on this is that a department may, if for some reason something costs more during the chat than when it was originally investigated, borrow up to 5% of the cost of whatever it is they want from the national treasury. It can also be used if the president (or whoever is playing) encounters an emergency situation. Currently, the foreign affairs department is trying to get consensus to use it to rush a temple in Macao.

I think things will be easier to keep track of if gold is allotted to depts rather than percentages, so I will start a budget request thread after each turn chat and then allocate money based on this, for particular purchases. Generally, each department will get a small allotment to save after each turn, even if nothing is requested.

What should we do in the event of selling a tech? Should we give all of the money to science? or split it between foriegn and science departments? I'm thinking it would all go to science and maybe 10% to the National or just all to science.

Originally posted by Civanator
What should we do in the event of selling a tech? Should we give all of the money to science? or split it between foriegn and science departments? I'm thinking it would all go to science and maybe 10% to the National or just all to science.

That is a good question. My vote would be that it all goes into the national treasury for reallocation, but others may feel differently. Let's have this discussion elsewhere. I will start a thread in the citizens forum.

Originally posted by eyrei


That is a good question. My vote would be that it all goes into the national treasury for reallocation, but others may feel differently. Let's have this discussion elsewhere. I will start a thread in the citizens forum.

I agree. Otherwise Foreign Affairs, Trade, and Science would end up with all the money. Unless, of course, all the money generated by cities went to Domestic and Culture :):flamedevi

128g from culture (Libraries)
192g from Foreign Affairs (Temple)
160g from Trade (most of Silk Deal)
300g from Military (Pike Ugrades)
216g from Domestic (20 from silk deal, 196 from Court rush, overbudget by 16g)
996 Total Spent

Current Treasury stats: 515g, 66gpt

Originally posted by eyrei
Budget as of May 17

Military Department: 229 + 71 + 300 (enough to upgrade 5 pikemen to musketmen)
Foreign Affairs: 50
Trade: 60 + 100 = 160 (I would like to see this money + the science departments budget be used towards acquiring technology from our neighbors)
Culture: 120 (to rush libraries in Byblos and Elephantine)
Science: 100
Domestic: 200 (I would like to use this to rush a harbor in Eyr to keep that city growing, but probably not until the next set of turns)
National: 191

Please note that these allocations total 1121 gold but the total in the treasury at the start of the May 17 turn chat was 979 gold.

Originally posted by Falcon02:
128g from culture (Libraries)
192g from Foreign Affairs (Temple)
160g from Trade (most of Silk Deal)
300g from Military (Pike Ugrades)
216g from Domestic (20 from silk deal, 196 from Court rush, overbudget by 16g)
996 Total Spent

I've tried to fit the General's expenditure figures into eyrei's appropriation figures to see if any department has any gold saved and this is the best I can come up with:

Military: 300 - 300 (upgraded 5 pikemen) = 0 gold saved
Foreign Affairs: 50 - 50 (towards Cultural Assault) = 0 gold saved
Trade: 160 - 160 (bought silks from India) = 0 gold saved
Culture: 120 - 128 (rushed libraries) = 8 gold over budget
Science: 100 - 0 spent = 100 gold saved
Domestic: 200 - 216 (balance of silk deal, 20 gold and rushed courthouse in Thebes to prep for Forbidden Palace) = 16 gold over budget
National: 191 - 142 (balance of Cultural Assualt) = 50 gold saved

Current Treasury stats: 515g, 66gpt

So, science has 100 gold saved and there is still 50 in the national account. That leaves 365 gold to be allocated for the next turn chat.

Originally posted by donsig


Please note that these allocations total 1121 gold but the total in the treasury at the start of the May 17 turn chat was 979 gold.



:eek: Sorry about that. I got interrupted right in the middle of that and had to leave it for about an hour. I hope it didn't cause any significant problems.

Originally posted by eyrei
:eek: Sorry about that. I got interrupted right in the middle of that and had to leave it for about an hour. I hope it didn't cause any significant problems.

It didn't cause problems but does help to explain (along with the large amounts spent) why the treasury is not at as high a level as we had before.

We currently have 866 gold of which the NSD has 100 gold saved. The rest will be reallocated for the upcoming turn chat.

During the last turn chat we spent 224 gold to rush the temple inThebes (FPC). We also spent much gold on the new war. These emergency expenditures included a wall in Justinian (160 gold), upgrading 4(?) pikemen (240 gold) and rushing a musketman regiment in Justinian.

Can someone please tell me how science spends it's money? I'm not sure if this is a good spot to ask so also kindly tell me so if not.

Curufinwe:Can someone please tell me how science spends it's money? I'm not sure if this is a good spot to ask so also kindly tell me so if not.

I think they can use it to rush science improvements like libraries and universities. Or maybe to pump up the science rate.

I'm not entirely sure because there there are so many overlaps between departments (eg. libraries increase culture) and it's sometimes hard to tell how decisions (including budgetary) should be taken if >1 departments are involved. The constitution only gives a rough guide.

Maybe there should be a thread outlining which departments should handle cross-departmental decisions and the amount of influence each of the involved departments has in these decisions. This should aim to clear up confusion between departments.

If there are cross-departmental conflicts they are solved according to the rank in the COC. Science can use their funds to purchase technology also.

If there are cross-departmental conflicts they are solved according to the rank in the COC.

This may not be a good system because there could be some decisions where a department represented lower in the COC should have a greater say. eg. Science Department wants to build a library (more urgent since research is boosted immediately) but Domestic want to build a temple (less urgent if happiness is not needed immediately).

It's working pretty well. The only build conflict would be Governor/Culture/Military/President. In that chain, the farthest to the right wins (but each of them except Governor needs conditions or Council Votes).

The Science Leader doesn't have the power to override a Governor's build queue. They could offer budget for rushing and there aren't too many Gov's who would refuse that.

can the NSD get 100 gold for buying atronomy from a civilization? if not 100 then at least 50?

Originally posted by Civanator
can the NSD get 100 gold for buying atronomy from a civilization? if not 100 then at least 50?

How much will it cost for us to buy astronomy?

it appears to be around 150 gold seeing as science has 100 and is asking for 50 or 100. This still might be short, as I believe to be.

The Department of Foreign Affairs would like to appropriate funds to rush a library in New Cap City.

The domestic department is hosting a poll to accept or reject the proposed budget allocations for the 5/26 turn chat.

Please vote. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=297926&t=6829#post297926)

Accounts at the start of the May 26 turn chat:

Military: 636 gold
Culture: 312 gold
Domestic: 156 gold
NSD: 156 gold

Expenditures during May 26 turn chat:

Miltary: 640 gold (upgraded 10 pikemen and 2 galleys)
Culture: 308 gold (rushed libraries in Tlaxcala and New Cap City)
Domestic: 124 gold (rushed temple in Alexandria)


Saved for next turn chat:

Miltary: none (4 gold over budget)
Culture: 4 gold
Domestic: 23 gold
NSD: 156 gold

Total saved: 192 gold
Amount of treasury to be allocated for next turn chat: 708 gold

Total treasury currently 900 gold.

Culture: 432 gold
FA: 28
Military: 180 gold
Trade: 28

Current Accounts are now:

Culture: 436 gold
Domestic: 0 gold
FA: 28 gold
Military: 180 gold
NSD: 156 gold
Trade: 28 gold


I have allocated enough to rush temples in New CAP City and Tlaxcala, and to upgrade 3 pikemen though each department is free use its funds as it sees fit.

I am not sure about the totals, but if you allocated 432 to Culture, why is the balance only 224? I do intend to use the money to rush temples, but I would like to know for sure how much is available. Thanks.

Originally posted by Justus II
I am not sure about the totals, but if you allocated 432 to Culture, why is the balance only 224? I do intend to use the money to rush temples, but I would like to know for sure how much is available. Thanks.

Oops!:eek:

I have fixed the error. The Culture Ministry has 436 gold at its disposal.

Military: 180 gold (upgraded 3 pikemen)
Culture: 424 gold (rushed libraries in New CAP City/Plexia and Tlaxcala)
Other: 100 gold to India in the silk deal
Other: 264 gold (market rushed in Heliopolis)

Notes: The 100 gold to India was offset by 37 gold from the Aztecs in the democracy deal. The market place in Heliopolis was rushed in error due to pre-turn chaos and :confused: .

So ends term 2. I suggest that all accounts be reset to zero so the term 3 government is not bound by the fiscal crisis created by term 2.

The Province of Kashmir formally requests assistance in the construction of Cultural improvements through the CAP funds.

I would be in favor of this project, once budgets are again assigned.

What are the budget's to be now. The CAP program can't run itself you know, needs government money.

Originally posted by curufinwe
What are the budget's to be now. The CAP program can't run itself you know, needs government money.

This is under the jurisdiction of the domestic department. Eyrei is the leader and SKILORD is the deputy.

Our treasury is at a much lower level than we are used to and our surplus is not as high as it once was due to increased spending on research.

I know that, isn't Eyrei gone? And I'm happy that research is up, just less for culture and military. Well, whenever you get here and allocate the funds, I give you prior thanks.

Yes. Funds are quite low (119 gold and 16gpt, according to the history books). While I support the CAP program, we should be mindful of our balance. I believe we could only have 280 gold by the end of the next round if we spend nothing.

With a low gold and low gpt, I propose we hold off on the CAP for this turn, until the budget is reviewed and produced by the Domestic Department. Of course, citizen voting and requests to use the money can be made, but it is just a proposal for this round. I'm a bit unconfortable with so little money saved.

If it is needed, you could halt my Amerian growth program by stalling the Aqueducts in San Francisco and Seattle.

That growth loss would be long-term loss for short term gain, the added production, commerce, and science in those added population would pay for itself in a while, though not immediately, and would cost us a bit for the CAP program. But there is more than the present, and we must be mindful of the future.

Originally posted by curufinwe
I know that, isn't Eyrei gone? And I'm happy that research is up, just less for culture and military. Well, whenever you get here and allocate the funds, I give you prior thanks.

Eyrei isn't gone he just hasn't been on-line during the week-ends lately.

I think Cheifpaco's advice about limited spending this turn is good. The trade department may be able to boost our treasury a bit. Better fiscal times are coming with the FP and Smith's both soon to be completed.:)

Originally posted by curufinwe
That growth loss would be long-term loss for short term gain, the added production, commerce, and science in those added population would pay for itself in a while, though not immediately, and would cost us a bit for the CAP program. But there is more than the present, and we must be mindful of the future.

I wasn't calling to stop it entirely, just to put it on hold for a few turns.

The Department of Foreign Affairs requests 84 gold be set aside for establishing an Embassy in England for the next turn.

Eyrei has set a Domestic goal (still up for discussion though) of getting and sustaining 1000 Gold, and I agree with this. Not only for the rushing of a Factory and Coal Plant in preperations for Universal Sufferage (In his plan), But it's always good to have extra cash on hand for emergencies, for example we go to war and we need to upgrade a bunch of Pikes in one turn chat.

It will also be good to keep 1000 gold on hand when we have Wall St. as that will bring in 50 gold/turn in interest.

Didn't think of that Donsig, but that's an even better reason...

Until the completion of Wall Street and Universal Suffrage, I would like to do the budget based solely on requests. If a department or province needs something, please request it in this thread. In the request, please state what the date for the next turn chat so I can keep them straight.

As I feel it is important to our foreign relations to have embassies, 84 gold is allocated to the foreign affairs department to establish an embassy with England.

Well, I have to say one thing....

I NEED MORE MONEY

Our military needs to be upgraded, I don't want to see our 27 Pikemen go against 27 Cavalry.

Since these upgrades are so expensive (I'm Still sore about losing the Leo's race), 2700 gold for just the Pike upgrades (not including 400 to upgrade Knights and an unknown amount to upgrade muskets), I suggest my upgrades be given the priority when distributing profits above any bottom line value (I think it should always be at a minimum of 1000, if possible).

Well, we don't need the 1000 gold until Wall Street is built, which will probably be about 15 turns. How much does an upgrade from pike to rifles cost per unit? 140 gold? Don't we have a few muskets we could upgrade first, to at least get one rifle in most border cities?

The Cultural Department requests 112 gold to rush a university in Tlaxcala (Cyrus).

PB, it will cost triple that, most sorry but you're thinking of the library in Chondote (i believe so)

It's 100 Gold per Pike Upgrade (to Rifles) and I think 60-80 for Muskets.

BTW I feel the 400 for Knights is the priority at the moment, then we can work on Pike and Musket upgrades.

Will there be any budget allocations for the June 9 turn chat?

Originally posted by Falcon02
It's 100 Gold per Pike Upgrade (to Rifles) and I think 60-80 for Muskets.

BTW I feel the 400 for Knights is the priority at the moment, then we can work on Pike and Musket upgrades.

See the turn instructions thread.

The President's office calls for the refunding of CAP and asks that budget allocations be placed in a seperate post in the turn chat thread.

Turn chat 1315 AD (June 12) (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=24529)

I cannot properly allocate funds for CAP without a great deal of very specific input from the cultural department. Please let me know what cities and improvements you consider priorities.

It's probably too late, but I request 240 gold to buy a university in Cyrus whenever the funds are available. It will be less later, though we're building a granary currently, so if that is finished it will cost more later.

Originally posted by punkbass2000
It's probably too late, but I request 240 gold to buy a university in Cyrus whenever the funds are available. It will be less later, though we're building a granary currently, so if that is finished it will cost more later.

If you can get the governor to change the build queue, we will be able to afford the expenditure in a couple of turns after starting. Technically, I believe the cultural leader could override the queue, but Cyc will probably agree with you anyway if the university is to be rushed.

Does it control it's nearby squares (21 radius) if not then switch it, for that university may gain us gems, so trade, science, and maybe even FA and culture all are involved in that.

It is missing one square in it's workable area (21 square radius mentioned earlier) but has extras it can not use. Therefore a representative from culture may over ride it if they see fit, and rush it some time in the future.

The Department of Foreign Affairs requests 1 more gold per turn to possibly satisfy another nation (likely Iroquois), pending public approval. The current spending of FA (6gpt) will expire by turn 6. I suggested 4gpt be reinvested at that time, freeing up 2gpt and I wish to add this 1 back for the duration of this turn. So, temporarily, the spending wil be 7gpt but will be down to 5 by turn 6. Did I confuse you? If so, just say yes :)

Originally posted by chiefpaco
The Department of Foreign Affairs requests 1 more gold per turn to possibly satisfy another nation (likely Iroquois), pending public approval. The current spending of FA (6gpt) will expire by turn 6. I suggested 4gpt be reinvested at that time, freeing up 2gpt and I wish to add this 1 back for the duration of this turn. So, temporarily, the spending wil be 7gpt but will be down to 5 by turn 6. Did I confuse you? If so, just say yes :)

I had to read it 4 times, but it eventually made sense. I don't see any problem with this spending. If there are no objections, it should be carried out.

Eyrei, you can base your budget allocations on projected income or on a split of the per turn income. You can also keep the stipulation that we not fall below 1000 gold mork. I guess what I'm trying to say is you can make specific allocations or set spending parameters for us to follow in the turn chat.

Also, would you please state in the turn thread that you authorize the optimization of the science rate as long as we can maintain the same number of turns to the next tech?

FA is requesting 30 gold to please the Iroquois next turn and 30 to please Rome - pending public and domestic approval - as always.

The Culture department would like to request funding for two projects, which are pending approval by the respective governors. I request a total of 372 gold, 156 to rush a library in Paville, and 216 to rush a temple in Justinian after it spends one turn building it. If the changes to the build queues are not approved by the governors involved, I will return the gold allocated to the main treasury, and make a new request once build queues are posted. My other recommendations for this upcoming turn (which have been sent to the governors) are building a temple in Chondote. This might also need to be rushed, but would not be as high in priority as the first two, and could wait until the next chat. Thank you for the consideration.

The President's office would like a budget allocation for the purposes of buying replaceable parts for our great nation.

I request 200 gold and permission to pay up to 35 gpt. I hope to be able to tie this trade in with our luxury exports to the Iroquois.

Citizenpoll regarding buying replaceable parts. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=25089)

I really don't like that idea. If we can get it for cheap that is one thing, but why spend like 700 gold when we can simply research it in 5 turns. Oh well. I guess 35gpt is a good deal compared to the much higher numbers that Chieftess posted. I don't think we are going to get a good deal on it.

Granted, if there are no further objections (Mine counts as one).

Why spend 700 gold total for Replaceable Parts? We are currently investing (almost that much) 568* gold per turn in science at 70% for 5 turns to get it. I think Rain said it first, but anything less than (568*5 =) 2840 gold would not only be a bargain as far as we're concerned, but would also save us time.

Example:
We could buy it for about 33gpt (a gpt amount donsig suggested) + about 900 gold. That's a total cost of 1560 gold.

Net profit of buying and zeroing science for five turns = 2840 - 1560 = 1280 gold. Plus we'd have the advantage of having it sooner, thereby allowing us to connect rubber, make infantry, and double our worker speed. Negatively, the money we spend would go to someone else.

Also, do you approve of the FA spending proposal?

*Science Spending is affected by libraries so I took the difference between the overall surplus per turn gold at 70% to 0%.

I agree, it seems cheaper to buy it then to research it. And the benefits of having it earlier is also worth something. (Replaceable Parts doubles your worker speed, and you can research someting else instead).

If what Chiefpaco says is true, the savings are obvious.

The FA requests 3gpt for pleasing the Iroquois next round.

The Military Dept. asks for the HUGE sum of 1920 gold (with 4095 we could afford it) for upgrading the remaining Pikemen.
A poll may be required to authorize this huge grant to the military.

Originally posted by Falcon02
The Military Dept. asks for the HUGE sum of 1920 gold (with 4095 we could afford it) for upgrading the remaining Pikemen.
A poll may be required to authorize this huge grant to the military.

Go ahead and start the poll, General. The domestic department will abide by the results.