The first civilization to research Divine Right should get a free great prophet. There are no other technologies that give the original discoverer a great prophet but there are for all the others (merchant: economics; artist: music; general: fascism; fusion: engineer; physics: scientist).

It will be much more attractive to try and spread Islam if you not only found it but are able to build the shrine straight away. It also makes getting this technology much more desirable - I maybe research this tech in one game out of every twenty I play ....

I think this is a really good idea. I might even go for DR if I got a free GP, but I'd probably skip the Islam shrine and use it for a golden age.

Yeah, A given Great Prophet should be added for either Divine Right or Theology...

Great Prophet with Divine Right? You get Islam with it already. Same for Theology.

It gives you the shrine for the Holy City. For Islam it should composted for the late appearance

Yeah good idea, Islam comes way too late to be able to spread it efficiently as around 80% of all cities have religion already, some with 2 if Izzy or Saladin are around. The only reason to get Divine Right fo me is for the wonders and when they're gone all that's left is the annoying tech trades that you always get offering Divine Right for Assembly Line plus 800 gold :rolleyes:

Yeah, I do actually think that that would be a good idea. Historically, the religion of Islam was founded in the seventh century, and despite this "late start" on other religions, it is currently the second largest religion in the world. Islam is pretty much never the second or even third largest religion in Civilization IV, so this should be changed to reflect history. What I am concerned with, however, is that if you are given a great prophet for free, you'd almost certainly use it for something other than the Islam holy building, such as lightbulbing the printing press, turning the great prophet into a specialist, or using him to create a building of a more popular religion. This wouldn't help the case of the Islam religion. Alternatively, the Islam holy building could come with Divine Right, but this would lead to spread even if you didn't want the spread, which is also bad, not to mention that it would populate your great person pool (since holy buildings give off great people points).

The best solution might just be to give Islam missionaries an increased chance of success. I have noticed that, as a city gains more religions, that adding a new one tends to be more difficult - and the last one, and thus, most difficult, will generally be Islam. Perhaps this is not true, but it is what I have noticed in my games. In addition to the increased success rate of missionaries, Islam should have a slightly faster spreading rate, and the holy building of Islam should add to its spread even more than a normal holy building would. Through this, Islam would spread more quickly and might just become an influence in the game, as it has so much in real life.

This would make Divine Right a much better tech.

Perhaps Founding islam could give you 3 free missionaries, that wouldn't be too unfair as it's quite late in the game and needs that kind of boost.

The only time i've ever seen Islam even remotely widespread was in a Monarch game I played where I was isolated managed to snag all 6 early religions as Ghandi, quite amazing that I managed to get both Buddhism and Hinduism with Brennus ,Wang Kon and Ramses in the game, but as soon as I popped Masonry from a hut and built Stonehenge that pretty much sealed the deal. Anyway Ramses later discovered Islam on the turn he showed up in his Caravel. So I teched to Astronomy and planted 1 Taoist missionary in every other Atheist civs cities and won the easiest Diplomatic game in my life.

I think this is a good idea. Islam spreads too slow in the game because most cities already have a religion in them, and so the shrine won't make as big of a deal or bring in as much income, until you spread Islam at least. It's a good idea because Divine Right is a dead end tech like some of the other techs that give you a great person. Music doesn't lead to anything, Fascism doesn't lead to anything, Economics is needed for corporations but you can skip economics for a while if you are going for state property instead...

Maybe it is a good idea to permit players to build monasteries after the discovery of scientific method?

And spreading a 3rd faith shouldn't be such a hassle.

great idea. divine rights tech is a bit useless

I think people are missing the point; this isn't about Islam as such, it's about Divine Right. Sure, Islam gets a poor deal, but so what? - the religions are all virtually the same, and there has to be a seventh place. Why *should* all the religions be spread evenly? Just because Islam rarely does well, it doesn't mean the game is broken; it just means that if you want a decent religion (in game terms), you need to make sure you get an earlier one.

My interpretation of what the OP said is that Divine Right - the technology, not the religion that comes with it - is currently of low value, and needs to be improved if it's going to be worth researching. I agree. Adding a free GP for the first person to research it would greatly increase the value of the tech for that person - either you use the GP for some other purpose (a free GP is never a bad thing), or you use it to build the Islamic shrine and hence increase the relative value of Islam (which, in turn, makes the tech more valuable).

The problem with all this is that it *still* only benefits the first person to get the tech. Its only other useful effects are to let you build some wonders (which may already have gone by the time you research it), and to enable (or slightly speed up) the research of Nationhood. It's extremely expensive, only accessible via Theology (and the first person to that gets Christianity, reducing the value to them of reaching DR first for Islam), and is essentially a dead-end tech. You can easily do without it.

Maybe none of this matters and we shouldn't try to make DR a must-have - just because it's there, it doesn't mean it has to be useful to every player in every game. If you want to give it some value though, I think it ought to benefit everyone who gets it, not just the first person and whoever builds the wonders. Maybe it could add 1 happy face to every city with the state religion, or something. Might be a little too powerful though.

what about giving a free GP to the one that discovers a religion founding tech second? "you founded it, but we have the prophet, haha!"

this would make getting a free great prophet a bit of a gamble, what fits to the nature of prophets ^^


there's many techs that are much less desireable, divine right is not the only one. i see no particulary reason to make this single tech more desireable.

Ooh, I like that! :D

The first civilization to research Divine Right should get a free great prophet. There are no other technologies that give the original discoverer a great prophet but there are for all the others (merchant: economics; artist: music; general: fascism; fusion: engineer; physics: scientist).

It will be much more attractive to try and spread Islam if you not only found it but are able to build the shrine straight away. It also makes getting this technology much more desirable - I maybe research this tech in one game out of every twenty I play ....

Interesting thread.
First of all, as always, I apologize for my english, it is not my first language and I now is far away from perfection.

On topic: DR is often useless. The benefits of this tech are:
a. the first to decover found Islam;
b. allow to build Versailles and Spiral Minaret;
c. is a OR prereq of Nationalism (which means that it allow you to Discover Nationalism or gives you an extra bonus on its research if you have both the prereq, Divine Right and Philosophy).

...so if you skip DR, once you discovered Nationalism (with the other OR prereq, Philosophy) and the two WW have been built by other civilizations, it is completly useless to you to research it or exchange it.
You can as well skip other tech:
- Theology: but you won't be able to run Theocracy and discover Divine Right (since it's an AND prereq of DR);
- Horseback Raiding: but you won't be able to build strong mounted unit as Horse Archer, Knight and Cavalry;
- Music: but you won't be able to build Cathedrals, biuld culture, and discover Military Tradition (which means no cavalry and defensive pact);
- Literature: but you won't be able to build Heroic and National Epics;
- Drama: but you won't be able to "set" the Culture% and build theatre and Globe Theatre;
- Archery: but you won't be able to build archery units, which means to forget about the best city defense units are there for a very long while;
- and so on...

None of these tech became so completely useless and absoletes so soon after the discover as DR: once you have discovered Nationalism, and both Versailles and the Spiral Minaret have been built, Divine Riht become completly useless.
So, in my opinion, it is not the free GP to the first to discover to be needed (also if it is not a bad idea too), but something that makes this tech important to be discovered to every one.
Some ideas:
- A bonus on an improvement (as for Chemistry or Printing Press);
- A new Building (like the Stable with Horseback Raiding in Warlord) or even better a new National Wonder (or maybe (?) a new Unit or National Unit);
- Allow GG to build accademies (Education still interesting enough, also if it loses that, i guess) or allow GG to build something else, new (?);
- Improves all the santuary you have built (+25% on the gold Holy Cities generates (?);
- Some other thing that last after the 2 WW have been built.
Just my 2 cents. Hope it is understandable :)

I think this is a good idea. Islam spreads too slow in the game because most cities already have a religion in them, and so the shrine won't make as big of a deal or bring in as much income, until you spread Islam at least. It's a good idea because Divine Right is a dead end tech like some of the other techs that give you a great person. Music doesn't lead to anything, Fascism doesn't lead to anything, Economics is needed for corporations but you can skip economics for a while if you are going for state property instead...

Music isn't technically a dead end tech as you require music to research military Tradition

Interesting thread.

- Allow GG to build accademies (Education still interesting enough, also if it loses that, i guess) or allow GG to build something else, new (?);


I assume you mean Great Prophet (GP) instead of Great General (GG)

Having done a quick search on Divine right on the internet I take that it has only to do with Monarchies, which in today's world does make it pretty much useless.

I guess the only problem I have with it is having to remove it from tech trades later in the game, if you ask an AI "what would you give me for this" the response is always Divine Right, World map and some coin.

yatta77, I think your characteristic of some of the "useless" techs is way off:

Theology - is very useful for a warmonger, due to Theocracy, it also gives you a chance for a later religion when you are beaten to the other ones (when I play a military game, I usually end up being Christian, since I have more important things to research first than the three early religions, and I use my first prophet to light-bulb Christianity)

Horseback Raiding - this gives you access to very good units, and allows for building of Stables

Music - I agree that it is possibly a weaker tech, but you get a free Great Artist for being first to research it - and that's exactly what the OP is proposing for Divine Right

Literature - National Epic is probably the most important National Wonder; Great Library is one of the most important Great Wonders, and THE most important Great Wonder if you are running SE

Drama - I agree, it could use some loving, but it gives theatre which is one of the cheapest non-religious culture-producing buildings in game once Calendar makes Monuments obsolete

Archery - again, it gives access to powerful units

I suggested this idea sometime ago too, but I'm claiming originality here. I'm claiming that it's so blatently obvious it's a good idea, that many people should agree and think of it. The great prophet would probably be used to build the shrine immediately, spreading the faith faster too. As it stands, divine right is kinda useless.

Martinus, I think you misunderstood yatta. He's saying that you can skip divine right just as you can skip other techs, but you won't want to skip the other techs because they are very good, as you pointed out. He's saying that if spiral mirianet and versailles have been built then divine right is useless and you shouldn't even bother getting it, and if you don't want those wonders in the first place even less reason to go for DR.

I have seen it in one or two mods being connected to a (valuable?) new civic of a new column. But the Great Prophet + a continuus bonus to monarchy would also be ok, I think,

mick ;)

yatta77, I think your characteristic of some of the "useless" techs is way off:

Theology - is very useful for a warmonger, due to Theocracy, it also gives you a chance for a later religion when you are beaten to the other ones (when I play a military game, I usually end up being Christian, since I have more important things to research first than the three early religions, and I use my first prophet to light-bulb Christianity)

Horseback Raiding - this gives you access to very good units, and allows for building of Stables

Music - I agree that it is possibly a weaker tech, but you get a free Great Artist for being first to research it - and that's exactly what the OP is proposing for Divine Right

Literature - National Epic is probably the most important National Wonder; Great Library is one of the most important Great Wonders, and THE most important Great Wonder if you are running SE

Drama - I agree, it could use some loving, but it gives theatre which is one of the cheapest non-religious culture-producing buildings in game once Calendar makes Monuments obsolete

Archery - again, it gives access to powerful units

As Civver says (thanks!), you are saying exaclty what I said! You can skip these techs (and win space race) but you lose something important could help you in the game. DR you can skip it and lose nothing, once the 2 WW are built. Probably my english wasn't good enough to explain myself, sorry.

I think DR should give something to all the player discovers it, nothing too important, but a bonus or so that gives an important reason to research it or trade it (like you said for the Teology which allows a useul Civic to all players beside founding Christianity for the first one to discover). Hope I could explain myself this time. :)

To be honest I don't think Divine Right needs to have something to offer all civs, there just needs to be more incentive for civs to research it. If you don't get it first and are beaten to the GP, tough. :) Polytheism is largely a worthless tech if you are not playing for the wonders or religion associated with it, except as a prerequisite for other techs. If Divine Right is not changed then which tech should give a free GProph? There are currently no technologies that give a free GProph but there are technologies that give all the other great person types.

Polytheism is largely a worthless tech if you are not playing for the wonders or religion associated with it, except as a prerequisite for other techs.
Good point! :) Polytheism is necessary for Literature, but if you don't care you can skip it. I never thought about that! (I always build National Epic as soon as I can, and sometimes the Great Library is in my plans, so Literature is a tech I value). DR to me it is just too expansive to become so early an obsolete tech, this is my thought. It needs a little bonus associated to it.
If Divine Right is not changed then which tech should give a free GProph?
I agree with you on this. If there's to chose a tech which gives the free GP, DR would be the best choice (earlier in the game would be a too big bonus, and later a GP would be less useful, besides that after DR in the tech tree there's no other tech associated somehow to the religions).

Late religions have a higher spread rate than early ones.

Islam does come to late to be super useful in the tech tree, but I don't think changing the tech is the necessary change, instead change the prerequisites to make it easier to get earlier. For example make it's only prerequisite Theology, so if you miss christianity you can try immediately for Islam.

That would place Islam in the same general "tech" layer as Toaism and it would be a toss up from game to game which of those technologies came first and/or spreads furthest.

That is definately a great idea, Divine right is a dead end tech that founds a religion which seldom spreads, pretty pointless atm. Ive gone many games without even getting divine right, but with a gp, i still wouldnt build the shrine, but it might actually make the tech worth something.

Would be an interesting idea but as mentioned it still only makes it useful if you are the first to get it. Unless I knew that I had a tech lead or really wanted the prophet I doubt I would go for it as it could be a gamble that the AI would beat me. Someone mentioned that the prophet would often be used to lightbulb but for the amount of beakers you put into DR u might as well just research something else.

The thing is that there really should be some civic attached to divine right, that way it would compare to theology and monotheism and CoL and Philosophy, who have a civic as well as a religion.
I would remove the feudalism civic (who uses it anyway) and replace it with something else called [inset_name_here] which gives +1 hammer to mines/+1 food to farms. This would represent the total power of the king and his ability to extort more from the peasntry.
With a good civic, people might then go for Divine right.

I've noticed the same difficulty. I figured it was to make a culture win through religious buildings less than simple (figure each successful missionary in your civ = 1 more temple = 1 more cathedral which makes culture wins a snap). The easiest tweak may actually be to separate Islam from divine right, to another, cheaper tech, or make Divine right cheaper. Basically more balancing so Islam can be founded quicker, but also rebalance the Divine Right wonders, perhaps to another tech, or make those wonders more expensive.

All in all I think all religions should be balanced to be equal in this game.



The best solution might just be to give Islam missionaries an increased chance of success. I have noticed that, as a city gains more religions, that adding a new one tends to be more difficult - and the last one, and thus, most difficult, will generally be Islam. Perhaps this is not true, but it is what I have noticed in my games. In addition to the increased success rate of missionaries, Islam should have a slightly faster spreading rate, and the holy building of Islam should add to its spread even more than a normal holy building would. Through this, Islam would spread more quickly and might just become an influence in the game, as it has so much in real life.

That's an interesting idea. In general, perhaps the later (in turns, not tech) a religion is founded, the more free missionaries it gets?

Perhaps Founding islam could give you 3 free missionaries, that wouldn't be too unfair as it's quite late in the game and needs that kind of boost.

The thing is that there really should be some civic attached to divine right, that way it would compare to theology and monotheism and CoL and Philosophy, who have a civic as well as a religion.
I would remove the feudalism civic (who uses it anyway) and replace it with something else called [inset_name_here] which gives +1 hammer to mines/+1 food to farms. This would represent the total power of the king and his ability to extort more from the peasntry.
With a good civic, people might then go for Divine right.

It's the power of feeding your peasants cake instead of bread.

I completly agree with this. I have nothing else to add. Good day to you!

Originally Posted by Alsark View Post

The best solution might just be to give Islam missionaries an increased chance of success. I have noticed that, as a city gains more religions, that adding a new one tends to be more difficult

Yes, this is true, I read this somewhere (manual I think); To spread a new religion in a city that has already 6 religions is very hard.

CU, Zoid

Well I think that
1. To strengthen Islam, a GP should come with DR.. meaning a Free Shrine for Islam

2. To strengthen DR, let it have the effect of +1 :) for the presence of an official religion

So DR is still useless for those who plan to go for Free Religion, but still good even for the late comer (after the Wonders are gone).