Can someone explain this to me? I'm sitll pretty green at the game. I play mostly on Noble and have absolutely fallen in love so much with the Financial trait, its practically become a crutch for me. I've become pretty economically dependant on cottages, but I'm curious about this alternative option I keep hearing about? Can someone explain it to me in a nutshell. I rarely use specialists, so I'm probably inadvertedly nerfing my abilities from the get-go.

At least I'm better than my roommate... He ONLY plays as Rome. :rolleyes: And guess why. ... It's not because of the traits. :lol:

Well I'm no expert myself, but in a nutshell:

Using specialists in the early/mid game to fund your scientific research. From my understanding, trying to get wonders that grant free specialists is key. This coupled with running representation (easier with the pyramids, but not neccasary) to add more beakers to each specialist. This specialist economy is then sent for a boot around the time emancipation comes around and cottaging everything that should be. This is because villages are much more powerful than a few specialists.

For a more detailed discussion there is alot in the war accademy.
Particularily read the last section of this guide: http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/strategy/gettingthemost.php

To challenge yourself a little, try running a cottage economy when you're not a Financial leader, just to get used to not having your "crutch".

Try this thread for more info on the SE: A Beginner's Guide to the Specialist Economy (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=197818)

To see an example of it in action (in vanilla Civ IV, granted), follow the link in my sig to the previous ALC game links and check out the one for Frederick/Germany. The Alexander ALC game is similar but features a hybrid economy--specialists in some cities, cottages around others.

To challenge yourself a little, try running a cottage economy when you're not a Financial leader, just to get used to not having your "crutch".

I run cottages regardless of my traits. It's how I get my economy going. I guess I should clarify that I don't only play with Financial civs, its just that when I do I see how broken it is in my opinion and its just murder (literally? :hammer:) for the opposition.

BTW- I love your ALC threads. Keep it going!

Financial trait is one of weekest trait in this game.

Financial trait is one of weekest trait in this game.

Are you serious? Whenever I play a game as a financial leader it's practically a guaranteed win. The fact that a lot of players refuse to play as a Financial leader because they consider it a "crutch" speaks to its phenomenal strength.

Financial trait is one of weekest trait in this game.

:sarcasm: or :smoke: ?

I am serious. The higher level you go, the weeker financial is.
There no sarkasm here.
I am sorry, I was thinking that my reputation should make people to accept my comments more on face value.

Financial is mostly middle/late game trait.
I allready put all this discussions, but I repeat.
Early in the game financial is mostly useless. On low level one can affort to build early cottagess, but in higher one need production, production, production...

That mean farm and mines, financial no help.
Yearly research come from special resources, capital and warter ties.

That is one set of maps where financial does shine - archipelago. Ability to instantly use warter for +3 commerce or +4 with colosys is powerfull. It is instand no civic town.

Otherwise, for up to may be liberalism one useally has only few ties with more then 1 commerce, so, financial is not mach help.

Or one need to build cottages, and every time I am forced to build cottage early on I am crying, I lost production for very few commerce.

Even building wealth(especially inderect, by loosing wanders build with special resource) is more efficient then early cottages.
There are so many ways in the game to get early commerce/gold from production (directly or inderictly) which beat +1 commerce from ties by far.

When one base game around production ( by whipping, slavery or mines) one has flehibility to produce gold, wanders improving one civ or army to take over somebody else. That is mach more solid and efficient way to play the game. But as useall, it demand a lot of planins, reacting on situation in order to take advantage from flexibility this stile providing. That is not newbie way to play.

Financial is Newbie trait. It is automatic, demand very little micro and easy to use. In addition, if one CAN affort not to have production, like on easy level, cottagess will pay off eventially. Nothing beat fully developed town under rigth civics + financial. Problem is, on higher level one can not affort to invest mach in this very long turm goal.

I understand what your saying but in a nutshell, your point is obvious.

Of course Financial is useless for a Specialist Economy. If you aren't working money tiles, the bonus doesn't exist. I on the other hand, have just established I have yet to truly run one yet. So far the Cottage Economy, it's pretty much game-breaking.

I pretty much strive to get production almost everywhere regardless of the difficulty I'm playing on though. It's been extremely frustrating for me to adjust to Civ4 because you can't just mine EVERYTHING IN SIGHT like in Civ3. In fact, I almost despise grassland now because it's so devoid of production. Except you can't change irrigate until CS so I get mad at tons of plains as well. BAH! In fact, hills are the only tile I still love. Except they always seem to be in AI territory in my games...

Are you serious? Whenever I play a game as a financial leader it's practically a guaranteed win. The fact that a lot of players refuse to play as a Financial leader because they consider it a "crutch" speaks to its phenomenal strength.

Same here - or at least at Prince, FIN is about the ONLY one I can win 50-50.

I have had some luck with other combinations, but at least for me gold seems to be at least part of the answer.

I guess if I had the willpower to really stick 100% to a specialist economy, others would be better, but I keep going off track on that :(

But reading over Mutineers post makes me think that BECAUSE I go financial might be a good reason why I am usually ahead early but fall way behind in power in the late game.

mutineer's a really good player. he amazes me in the SGs i've seen him play. he does things i would never in a million years think to do. some seem obvious once i see them in action. i've learned a lot from him, but a lot of it i still have trouble applying to my own games, or flat out doesn't work in my games since they're so different. for instance, he has a tendency to go start beating up other people a LOT earlier than i do :lol:. he's really used to playing on the very high levels now, i bet he hardly remember what it's like for some of us ;).

ps thank you thank you thank you for helping me last night with that pest george washington! :) i gave him back his stupid national epic city so that i could build mine in my GP farm. i did keep his chicken pizza city just to spite him. you saved my game (i think ... still haven't played it out to see if i win before gandhi launches...)

@mutineer---you make some interesting arguments. i will have to check out some of the games you've played. thanks in advance for the knowledge i will gain.

lol, mutineer has been cultivating a hate relationship with financial trait for a longest time now...
Financial is pretty weak on highest levels and only place where its good is on archipelago map, not because of cottages but because of extra commerce on water. The more landmass, the less useful it is. Early game you work resources so financial is pretty useless until much later. By the time you can effectively use financial trait the game should be in such a position that you don’t need financial to win; or you'll lose the game anyway. That’s speaking for highest levels; on lowest a good player don’t need single trait to win a game so it’s useless to argue it for low levels. That’s the whole point; people have different understanding about what trait is more/most useful because their understanding of game mechanics differ. I guarantee if you ask some of the best players around, very small percentage will favor financial.

well these are some surprising and interesting comments about the financial trait...here I was assuming that trait was generally agreed to be a good one but now you've got me thinking! I think this again shows how cool this game is... you really can't box in your thinking that any one particular trait or strategy or whatever is the best or better way to go. It all depends on the situation.

well these are some surprising and interesting comments about the financial trait...here I was assuming that trait was generally agreed to be a good one but now you've got me thinking! I think this again shows how cool this game is... you really can't box in your thinking that any one particular trait or strategy or whatever is the best or better way to go. It all depends on the situation.

Yes, what you're seeing here is a debate between players on the higher levels versus those on the lower ones. I play at Monarch myself and Financial is still a very strong trait there, but based upon the exchanges here I suspect that it peters out at either Emperor or Immortal level.

One way to cultivate financial is to build towns next to rivers, and seek out seafood. Another is to place cities that maximize the number gold-type resources per city. Make those cities financial cities. Make the green cities your SE cities.

But growth = power (more tiles worked = more hammers) and financial requires you to sacrifice the growth (farm) for the town. Ironically you need the production to maximize the benefit of the financial thru banks.

So overall you need a mature city to benefit from financial.
But one trick to getting early religions is seafood (even if not boated) plus financial. That will help you win a tech footrace to religions.

@goodgame, i think the argument will still stand at higher levels for your early seafood resource to get an early holy city. Since at levels above emperor, the ai gets such a research advantage over you, that 1 extra gold isn't going to allow you to net an early religion, imho.

I have little trouble to understand what wonders you should focus when trying SE. I have been trying to get pyramids and the great wall to one city and vatiety of Wonders in others. I know you need lots of food around your gp-"farms" ("" cause I usually don't succeed, seems like GreatPersons don't pop up too often), but I have absolutely no idea how to forsee their appearance. Only thing I know is how to look city growth where it tells how many turns there is before next GP, but I don't know the mechanics how to increase those points.

Is it totally wrong to keep a city which builds wonder after wonder, expect those special wonders that I want for military or economic reasons (or GreatWall and Pyramids for only great engineers)?

EDIT: Of course I try to build panthenon. I also try to build national epic to the city (no military or economy city) where I have most wonders anyway.

Yeah financial is clearly a weak trait:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=205997
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=202226


incidently i'd take creative over any other trait.
(is that sarcastic or not, u decide)

I am sorry, but main reason incas coyuld be very good are quechas.

I have little trouble to understand what wonders you should focus when trying SE. I have been trying to get pyramids and the great wall to one city and vatiety of Wonders in others. I know you need lots of food around your gp-"farms" ("" cause I usually don't succeed, seems like GreatPersons don't pop up too often), but I have absolutely no idea how to forsee their appearance. Only thing I know is how to look city growth where it tells how many turns there is before next GP, but I don't know the mechanics how to increase those points.

Is it totally wrong to keep a city which builds wonder after wonder, expect those special wonders that I want for military or economic reasons (or GreatWall and Pyramids for only great engineers)?

EDIT: Of course I try to build panthenon. I also try to build national epic to the city (no military or economy city) where I have most wonders anyway.

I'm no expert, but having a single city focus on wonders is a bad idea. Building your national wonders is different, but should be decided on very carefully when you are attempting to specialize your cities.

As for GPP, they are dependant on a few things.
1)Wonders: When you are looking at a wonder it will often say +2 :gp: (Great Scientist). This means that this wonder will add 2 great scientist points to your GPP pool every turn.
2)Specialists: Every specialist you have working in your city adds +1 :gp: based on the type of specialist. A scientist adds great scientist points.

Now when you are in the city details screen, if you mouse over the GPP bar on the right side of the screen, a menu should pop up telling you the percentage of getting a Great Engineer, Scientist, Artist, etc. These percentages are based on the flavour of GP points in your GPP pool.

Are we confused yet? (mainly because I'm not really on the ball today :sleep:)

I'll explain with an example. If you have built the pyramids in a city (I am going to assume 2 GE points) and you are running 2 scientists. What is going to happen is the city will have a total of 4 GPPs added each turn, but when the GP is generated, he will have a 50/50 chance of being an engineer or scientist.

On a side note, I don't know what happens to the GPP pool after a GP is generated (does a GS just clear out the GSP out of the pool, but leaves some remaining GEP in the pool to further increase the chance of a GE next time?)

So one thing that is very important for a GP farm is it should be in a city with NO WONDERS. The main reason behind having a single GP farm is it is easier to get the type of great person you want. If I want a Great Engineer, I don't want a city that is polluting the GPP pool with great artist or great prophet points from wonders. I want to have only GE points being added to the pool so that the chance of generating a GE is extremely high.

Well I'm tired after that, I hope that explains some things about a GP city. And for clarification, city specialization is different than a Specialist Economy.

Sounds like you aren't on the ball today, indeed.
Specialists give +3GPP.
Also, each specialist and each wonder counts as a source of GPPs, so pyramids/2 scientists example would be 33% engineer, 66% scientist probability.

I think the GPP source points pool is cleared when the GP pops.

Thanks, for the clarification, I must really be off today. So if a specialist is 3GPP each, then yes the 33/66 percentage is correct.

But I still stand by the point that wonders in a GP farm is very bad for screwing up your percentage of getting the GP person you want.

The number of GP points contributed doesn't matter for the percentages, just the number of sources. So if say a wonder gave +10 GPPs (Everton FC for example), it would still only count as 1 source of GPs in the percentage chance, and each specialist would be 1 source each.

Wow.. I did a quick test what happends when you change specialists in city with lots of food and pyramids-GreatWall-NE.. well they started to starve but rate was quite good. So if I understand it correctly I should never let computer to decide how many specialists I want to run in my city because it seems like that by default it wants to maximize growth.

I only tested quickly and it seemed promising. How can you specialize a city for certain kind of specialists? I have huge problem if I for example notice after building a pyramids that there would be only few turns to oracle? Should I just let it go and try to build it somewhere else and possibly let computer have it?

Caste system is best if you want quick scientists, merchants or artists.

I tend to build Oracle and Pyramids in separate cities. The easiest thing to do (on Epic speed) is to build the Oracle (normally in my 2nd city), take metal casting as the free tech, build a forge (in another city, usually my capital), and run an engineer (better if you have the great wall), you should be able to get a great engineer before the prophet from the Oracle. Then use this to build the pyramids in 1 turn. This gets harder on Normal speed since GPs pop at 100 points rather than 150 so you have less time to build your forge (probably need to chop trees or use slavery to get it quick enough). Engineers are so useful I tend to not build any non-engineer wonders in my pyramids city (even better if you have Great Wall there too). It's worth building the Hagia Sophia and Hanging gardens in the same city for the GE points too. EDIT: The hanging gardens are worth building anyway. Hagia Sophia is pretty useless though, except for the extra GE points.

Hagia Sophia is pretty useless though, except for the extra GE points.
Not if you're doing a SE->CE switch, or have a lot of midgame expansion due to playing on a big map, or from a successful war.

Wodan

True but you can always just nip into serfdom for a bit as well. I find I have oodles of workers if I've been playing a SE style warmongering frenzy too.