I've been playing around with different leaders recently (mostly on MP) in order to try out different tactics and broaden my skills. I think that I can make the most of almost every trait now apart from Spiritual. I just can't seem to find a way to use it.

Let's start with the half price temples. I never build temples in the first place so thats probably why I find this so uterly useless. But I can't seem to ever find a good reason to build temples. Its just so much cheaper and usefull to build another archer. I suppose it could come in useful before HR, but I don't usualy have a priesthood unless I'm researching Monarchy. The only exeption to this is if I'm going for Oracle. Still, that means I only build temples if I:
1) Have an early religion
2) Went for Oracle
3) Don't yet have HR
Thats a lot of ifs. The only other time I build temples is into the late game once I have free religion and US. But that doesn't happen often as I play mostly multiplayer, and even then I find that I can build temples in 1 turn anyway.

Onto Anarchy. That is only usefull when you change civics/religion. But that doesn't happen to often. In the course of a game I will probably experience anarchy when I:
1) Adopt Slavery
2) Adopt Religion
3) Adopt HR
4+5) Adopt Beaurocracy/Vassalage + Organised/Theocracy

And by that time my multiplayer games have ended. In SP I will probably switch 2 or 3 more times at the most as I get the 'democratic' civics + communism/fascism. At the most I will experience 10-11 turns of Anarchy if I have a very big empire where it takes 3 turns to change a civic. It just doesn't seem to merit an entire trait. I keep telling my self that I need to make the most of it and switch between Beaurocracy and Vassalge or OR and theocracy more, but I just don't seem to ever find the need. I wouldn't mind going to Nationhood for a couple of turns to whip out a nice army, but it just doesn't seem worth it when you have to wait 6 whole turns before going back to free speech.

So, am I just not using Spiritual properly or is it a weak trait?

It is pretty weak in multiplayer. However, SP is another world. You will make far more changes, probably saving you 15 turns of what would normally be anarchy. However, you will change far more often with Spiritual. Consider that you can run an SE with Caste System, switch to slavery and whip all of your cities, then switch back in time for the regrown population to go back to specialists. Also, another strategy involves theology and vasselage. You start in the builder civic, like organized religion and bureaucracy, then prebuild units in you cities until each city has 2 units to be built in 1 or 2 turns. Then switch, and build the units with the XP, five turns later, the economic civics come back. It is flexibility that is important with spiritual. Also, another example is when war is declared on you. Spiritual allows you to instantly switch to slavery and nationalism to defend wherever the attack is coming from. So, again, flexibility and micromanagement are the name of the game with Spiritual.

I myself was thinkning this, until recently. I change between represenataion, universal sufferage and Police state a lot and later on in the game each of these individual changes can take 2/3 turns. Thats 2/3 of research and production and if you are in war its even better.

Spiritual is my favorite trait. I find it addicting because now whenever I am playing as someone else, I feel my style is limited to a certain strategy. When spiritual, you can change your strategy at any point you want. At war? Switch to Police State, Theocracy, Vassalage, or whatever you want. Expanding your economy? Organized Religion, Bureacracy, Representation... Unhappiness? hereditary rule... Feel like pumping out a great person? Switch to Caste System and Pacifism and work as many scientists/merchants/artists as you want in your GPF until you pump out a great person. Then switch back to whatever you want... You can also switch to anyone's religion to benefit trade negotiations at any point...

And cheap temples are I think the most underrated building in the game. Everyone agrees that happiness is more limiting to your cities than health, and temples take care of that. Not just one cheap temple either, remember there are 7 temples you can build in each city! And you don't need to have it as a state religion to get the happiness from it. Also, the temples allow the cathedrals and are huge for culture.

Finally, the temples allow you to work a priest special so you can pump out a great prophet and either find a new religion or build the shrine.

I think the cheap temples people really overlook. I hear people say Augustus gets 6 cheap buildings, well spiritual leaders can potentially have 7 cheap buildings per city...:king:

I don't play multiplayer games but I can see that spiritual would be less useful in games where you have no need to switch away from Monarchy and since temples are already quite an expensive building for their short term benefit. Spiritual is a very powerful single player trait.

The only curious thing I find in your essay is that you wouldn't consider using spiritual to switch between builder civics and warmonger civics. Instead of

4+5) Adopt Beaurocracy/Vassalage + Organised/Theocracy

what about regularly switching between Bureacracy/Organised and Vassalage/Theocracy as required?. But as I said, I don't play short games so I don't know how useful that would be.

Bonafide11:
And cheap temples are I think the most underrated building in the game. Everyone agrees that happiness is more limiting to your cities than health, and temples take care of that. Not just one cheap temple either, remember there are 7 temples you can build in each city! And you don't need to have it as a state religion to get the happiness from it. Also, the temples allow the cathedrals and are huge for culture.

I don't. Happiness may have a more immeadiate limitation on your growth than health but there are many more ways to overcome a low happiness cap than to overcome a low health cap.

I do not undestand why anyone would consider spiritual week in multiplayer.

Spiritual is one the most powerfull trait in the game. No any other trait come near. So, even with multiplayer handicaps (spiritual advantage to dimplomacy does not exist in multiplayer), it is still the most powerfull trait.
Early on::
Ability to run castle system/pacifism swich to slavery/org religion for buildings, or slavery/theocracy in case you need units rigth now is game breaking.

Even switch to serfdom could be usefull.

Later switch from Burocracy/nationalism or Free speach/nationalism.
Switch religions for religious scouting if you can.
Switch representation/ police state or US for rush buying.

No, no any other traits give you such flexibility, and in multiplayer flexibility will win you the game!

Happiness useally not a problem, health is.
Thought saying that, templess still usefull.

The only curious thing I find in your essay is that you wouldn't consider using spiritual to switch between builder civics and warmonger civics. Instead of what about regularly switching between Bureacracy/Organised and Vassalage/Theocracy as required?. But as I said, I don't play short games so I don't know how useful that would be.


I think you hit the nail on the head there. I rarely play with spiritual civs, so I never have the habit of changing civics. Maybe I could force myself to switch between the two more often. I'll try that in my next game!

i play SP only. i love spiritual and miss it a ton when i don't have it. for me it's not just a matter of "ok i change civics a lot so it saves me turns of anarchy", and the half-price temples i don't really care about at all. what i adore is how flexible it lets me be in diplomacy. someone i don't want to tick off comes by demanding that i convert to X religion? sure, i do it, no anarchy, +1 modifier with him. the +1 stays even after i change back 5 turns later. that of course doesn't enter into MP at all; there you only change civics for the benefits the civics give you, not the warm fuzzies your opponents get when you're using those civics :lol:.

today i sat in front of the screen for about 90 seconds debating whether to give in to a civics change demand, since i wasn't spiritual, so it would cost me 2 turns of anarchy + the 5 turns not in the civic i wanted, but i decided it was worth it anyway since i really can't afford for this guy to attack me. at times like that, i sooooooooo miss spiritual, even if i never build a single temple the entire game. of course, if i want to go to war, i go to war. if someone declares war on me, i don't really have a choice. but if i want to build up relations to get better trade opportunities, or i want to try to delay a war, spiritual helps me do that in ways no other trait can. if they come by with demands that i change civics or religion, the + i get with the demander lasts, any -s i get with folks that think i'm heathen for those 5 turns disappear when i change back. it's sometimes the deciding factor for me when debating "should i use X's favorite civic for a bit to get him to friendly since i really want such-and-such out of him?" if the change won't cost me two turns of anarchy, it's a better investment than if it would cause anarchy, obviously. sadly, spiritual doesn't help at all with those pesky "stop trading with the vile ABCs" demands. *giggle*

it's probably obvious that not only do i not play MP, i don't usually try to crush every rival with axemen before 1 AD :lol:. i take my time and i do it when i'm prepared; until then i try to either stay on their good side, or manipulate things so that they hate at least one other person more than they do me ;). i'm an oddball.