It just boggles me how as many as five prateorians can't capture a city with just three archers. Even if you bring a catapult, since archers have only 3 health each, there is very little collateral damage and if you fail or back down from your attack for just ONE turn, then you could be facing near fully healed archers again! What's worse, the AI seems smart enough to whip an extra archer by the time I walk to their city, so what would have been three archers, ends up being four! Of course the madness doesn't stop there -- once they get longbowman, you might as well give up attacking them until you get Infantry!

Firaxis should really consider toning this trait down. I think the trait itself is not just lame because it's overpowered, but because of its unoriginality. I mean what, were all Asian nations renowned for their ability to defend themselves, or something? Hell, technically China doesn't even count because both Ghangis Khan and his son died before their armies marched over there. I would have much rather seen ANYTHING else, like a diplomacy trait or a lightning unit speed trait, or something. Honestly I hate this trait so bad that I refuse to play with any asian's, so if it's Firaxis' intention to make me a racist, then they're succeeding.

Lol, that is funny ;)

First post I've read arguing that protective is over powered.

Haha... I agree Protective AI civs are annoying as hell... Their cities can be really difficult to take, especially prior to catapults. But I don't think its overpowered at all. I find it a better trait for the AI than for humans (unless in multiplayer) because the AI isn't smart enough to take your cities as it is, so you really don't need the extra city defense against them.

While I don't 100% agree with you, it's comforting to see someone not complaining about Protective (that is, not complaining that it sucks :crazyeye:). I personally think the trait is vastly underrated. Free CG1 is nice for unexpected wars or if you are caught in a pinch. The Drill series becomes very ridiculous if you can manage to get it to Drill3 or 4. You are talking about somewhere between 5-7 Free Strikes. That's easily enough to wipe out a unit unharmed unless you vastly underpowered, in which case it's a chance to easily do respectable damage you wouldn't have done otherwise. If you want to see power, try Churchill CHM/PRO. Drill 4 for 8 XP is crazy. Redcoats will color the earth gray.

It just boggles me how as many as five prateorians can't capture a city with just three archers. Even if you bring a catapult, since archers have only 3 health each, there is very little collateral damage and if you fail or back down from your attack for just ONE turn, then you could be facing near fully healed archers again! What's worse, the AI seems smart enough to whip an extra archer by the time I walk to their city, so what would have been three archers, ends up being four! Of course the madness doesn't stop there -- once they get longbowman, you might as well give up attacking them until you get Infantry!

Firaxis should really consider toning this trait down. I think the trait itself is not just lame because it's overpowered, but because of its unoriginality. I mean what, were all Asian nations renowned for their ability to defend themselves, or something? Hell, technically China doesn't even count because both Ghangis Khan and his son died before their armies marched over there. I would have much rather seen ANYTHING else, like a diplomacy trait or a lightning unit speed trait, or something. Honestly I hate this trait so bad that I refuse to play with any asian's, so if it's Firaxis' intention to make me a racist, then they're succeeding.

I'm not a fan of protective, either. It's already too difficult for the AI to take another AI's cities, but if they are attacking a protective AI, it's even worse. For humans, it means having to bring more seige, and being especially careful to bring a big enough stack that the AI has very limited time to reinforce. If a protective civ has longbows defending a city on a hill, bring trebs and be prepared to lose a number of them (winces).

I must agree that this thread made me laugh, mainly because I got so used to reading complaints about the protective trait.

Even longbowmen (protective civ or not) make taking cities a little more difficult, but even the prat should be able to conquer those cities. Prat's are so cheap for a CR maceman that you should almost easily be able to overwhelm the longbowmen.

:lol: protective overpowered :lol:

Unless I was gunpowder or better vs archers I wouldnt expect to win 5 on 3 in almost any circumstance - I absolutly HATE seeing those 83% odds come up - especially knowing I HAVE to win that battle to take the city on that turn - I can almost feel the smackdown coming and, yep, sure enough I will lose.

I was going against Toku in my latest game - I was suiciding 3 cannon per city just to give my Cav/rifles a chance against him - once he upgraded to CD3 rifles things got ugly - I had a few CR3/anti-gunpowder grens that got me a couple more victories.

Basically you really need to bring it if they are protective - dont split your attack forces and try for more than 1 city at a time - suicide those seige engines and be sure of winning before you commit. I would say in addition to seige engines to have at least 2x units attacking then they have defending.

;)

Get over it! ( Sorry, I couldn't resist )

I find it helps to look at things from different perspectives. For example-
I originally found the barbarian "black ax crush" unbearable in my huge maps.

Trying the shoe on the other foot, I find I like ax rushing one civ each game.
I also learned about the weakness of that approach and how to better defend myself against it.


Try playing as one of those protective leaders, you might like it.
Or you might join the ranks of the complainers. Either way, you'll probably
get a better grasp of it's limitations and maybe even other advantages,
for a more balanced & informed opinion.


Some other things you might try are warring against other civs first for experience, or using the Powell doctrine of overwhelming force, or using as many cats as there are archers/ trebs as there are longbowmen before you attack, since in this paper/scissors /rock world, siege units are the counter to archery ones.

I miss I miss Sun Tzu from Civ 3... But I guess it'd be too broken....
Sun Tzu in Civ3 can give every new captured city a barracks - Just two more turn, your invading Force will all be healed.

About Protective......Catapult or treb the city before your Prateorians comes.

The problem here is that you don't bring enough catapults. Reduce the city cultural defense to 0%, suicide 1 or 2 cats and then take it. Preatorians are easy-mode versus the computer but you still have to do some thinking.

Chu Ko Nus are very overpowered, with Protective traits.
Unless China doesn't have Iron. Then it is a cakewalk.

CR promotions are your friend.

Chu Ko Nu - it`s not overpowered, I think, though it can fit all battle condition - City Attack, Hunt and City Defense. BUT None of the three can be done well by it - City Attack, less efficient than Treb; Hunting, less than Catapult; City Defense, less than Longbow.

If you want to see power, try Churchill CHM/PRO. Drill 4 for 8 XP is crazy. Redcoats will color the earth gray.
i whould love to see an English longbowmen(50%vs melle)

i agree that protective is under rated and a little underpowered

As too most Asian civs being protective, I thought it was to show the traditional isolationist nature of many of those civs. I like the trait, both playing as and against.

Wait, Mehmed isn't protective, neither are Ghandi or Asoka.

(Is Saladin protective? His traits escape me at the moment [Spi/Pro?])

The only Protective leader I like is Toku... After the fade of the samurais, a combat 1/cg 1 / drill 1 grenadier without barracks is a very respectable unit. And try drafting ....

i agree that protective is under rated and a little underpowered

Whiskey-Tango-Foxtrot?

What are you trying to say? I'm sticking with underrated myself, but you say simultaneously that it is underrated for its strength but it's weak? Agh! Logic hole! :)


Technically, Mongolia is an Asian nation, and they don't have any leaders with the Protective trait. I would rather see Toku as Agg/Org, but whatever--it'll probably change around again in BtS. Others have been mentioned...but I don't count India, as it is more of its own culture group (and closer to the Mid. East) than belonging to the East Asian culture group...



Also, sometimes the game odds don't work in your favor. I was just beseiging a city, and I used three catapults/trebutchets to weaken the defenses, and then went for the kill. Much to my surprise, I lost 4 battles in a row with roughly a 70% chance of winning each one. Then another battle when I only had a 65% chance of winning. If you do the math, I had roughly a .3% chance of this happening, but it did anyway. That's the way civilization goes...just imagine how the world would look if Napoleon wasn't as lucky as he was at Austerlitz.

Wait, Mehmed isn't protective, neither are Ghandi or Asoka.

(Is Saladin protective? His traits escape me at the moment [Spi/Pro?])

Except most people wouldn't consider any of those four "Asian".

The only Protective leader I like is Toku... After the fade of the samurais, a combat 1/cg 1 / drill 1 grenadier without barracks is a very respectable unit. And try drafting ....

Yes, AGG/PRO gunpowder is scary. But I also like Churchill. 8XP Drill4? Upgrade to Redcoats? Die die. And the Chinese aren't so bad because Cho-ku-nu's collateral.

After that, I feel largely situational and such. For example, wit Wang Kon, I feel the urge to cottage spam intensely early to allow them to grow, and with PRO archers, I'm not afraid to turtle as I do it.

Chu Ko Nu - it`s not overpowered, I think, though it can fit all battle condition - City Attack, Hunt and City Defense. BUT None of the three can be done well by it - City Attack, less efficient than Treb; Hunting, less than Catapult; City Defense, less than Longbow.

I disagree. It seems most people here haven't really used Drill promotions much. Drill I and proabbly II aren't to special, but once you get to III and IV it's really amazing. You are talking about 4-6 FREE STRIKES. That's free damage. Without getting hurt. Cho-ku-nu's spread it too. They can easily take longbows down because of those two factors. The melee bonus means that's a joke as well. The only thing I see smashing them is Flanking II Elephants (Knights later).

Whiskey-Tango-Foxtrot?

What are you trying to say? I'm sticking with underrated myself, but you say simultaneously that it is underrated for its strength but it's weak? Agh! Logic hole! :)




im saying that the trait as it is underrated but still needs a boost.

It just boggles me how as many as five prateorians can't capture a city with just three archers.Of course they can't - what makes you think that they could?

Even if you bring a catapult, since archers have only 3 health eachYou have GOT to stop thinking like that. An Archer in a city has a lot more than 3 health.

3 Strength
+50% for unit trait (+1.5)
+25% for city defense promotion (+0.75)
+25% fortification bonus (+0.75)
+20% Culture(?) (+0.75)
+50% Walls(?) (+1.5)
+50% Hill(?) (+1.5)

An Archer in a city is potentially a 9.75 Strength defender in a worst case scenario and most important of all: First Strike

You cannot attack at 5:3 odds without heavy bombardment to take out tile bonuses followed up by at least 2 or 3 cats to hurt the defenders enough that your Praetorians have a chance and this would be the case regardless of the Protective trait.

If it were me attacking that city? Five Praetorians and three Catapults would be my attack stack. All 3 cats would die - none of the Praetorians would.

Honestly I hate this trait so bad that I refuse to play with any asian's, so if it's Firaxis' intention to make me a racist, then they're succeeding.The protective trait has nothing to do with why you're losing these battles, since the AI will almost always give Archers the City Garrison training even without the trait automatically. You're losing the battles because you're not bringing enough to do the job. :crazyeye:

@Re/\/\eDy: So you won't play Mongolia, a clearly Asian country with two leaders who don't have the Protective trait? I agree that India and the Ottomans belong more in the Middle East culture group than the East Asian culture group (despite being both on the continent of Asia), but you can't pull that with Mongolia.

@Vizzini: What you said is correct: praetorians are strong, but even they need some siege support every once in awhile.

It just boggles me how as many as five prateorians can't capture a city with just three archers. Even if you bring a catapult, since archers have only 3 health each, there is very little collateral damage and if you fail or back down from your attack for just ONE turn, then you could be facing near fully healed archers again! What's worse, the AI seems smart enough to whip an extra archer by the time I walk to their city, so what would have been three archers, ends up being four! Of course the madness doesn't stop there -- once they get longbowman, you might as well give up attacking them until you get Infantry!

Firaxis should really consider toning this trait down. I think the trait itself is not just lame because it's overpowered, but because of its unoriginality. I mean what, were all Asian nations renowned for their ability to defend themselves, or something? Hell, technically China doesn't even count because both Ghangis Khan and his son died before their armies marched over there. I would have much rather seen ANYTHING else, like a diplomacy trait or a lightning unit speed trait, or something. Honestly I hate this trait so bad that I refuse to play with any asian's, so if it's Firaxis' intention to make me a racist, then they're succeeding.

What a tool :rolleyes:

I must agree that this thread made me laugh, mainly because I got so used to reading complaints about the protective trait.

Even longbowmen (protective civ or not) make taking cities a little more difficult, but even the prat should be able to conquer those cities. Prat's are so cheap for a CR maceman that you should almost easily be able to overwhelm the longbowmen.

:lol: protective overpowered :lol:

No kidding. As I said, the guy's a tool.

What a tool :rolleyes:

You opened up a thread from months ago just to insult someone?

It seems it's been buffed indirectly by BTS with the AI upgrades, with the ai getting shock crossbows.

I see no reason to weaken Protective, you should have the guts to take the bad and the good!

Not to mention the boost to castle production makes it easier to get that +25% espionage points. The trait has gotten a number of "indirect" boosts.

I think it's a great trait. As soon as you get to gunpowder, you get 2 free promotions for every unit, 3 with Japan. It's like having a UU in every era.

I've found one of the biggest advantages, is it allows me to stretch my army further when I'm warmongering, and makes me less fearful of counterattacks against newly captured cities.

With a regular civ, I might feel confident leaving 3 healthy and 3 injured units in a city on the turn I capture it. With a protective civ, I'll leave 2 healty units to protect the city and the 3 injured units, and then send the spare unit off with the rest of the stack.... to attack the next city.

:crazyeye:
... pfff... monti had - of three cities in total - in his capitol just 3 archers when i started approaching into his territory... after three turns by the time i arrived he had added 3 axeman, 3 archers and one of his special units... to top it off, he seemed being able to add like every turn just another unit thereafter... big baaaah!... i decided to retreat with my 20 horsearchers and two axemen and attack his other cities instead... wasnt even worth trying... ::giggle::...
:crazyeye:

I say people find it underpowered in general, because they are on the offensive, not defending.
If you're being attacked it is very useful, provided the AI attack the city, but usually they go plundering around. Hmm....:confused:
One thing is certain for me. If I select opponents for a match that needs extensive warfare, I avoid selecting protective civs. They are simply a pain in the ass when it comes to conquering their cities in a time they have archers or musketmen as their main defenders. And getting a good finish requires early warfare, against archers.

With Japan wait for musketmen as these start with the agg/pro promotions. You can really get a stupidly powerful unit from the free promotions you get when you build them.

You have GOT to stop thinking like that. An Archer in a city has a lot more than 3 health.

3 Strength
+50% for unit trait (+1.5)
+25% for city defense promotion (+0.75)
+25% fortification bonus (+0.75)
+20% Culture(?) (+0.75)
+50% Walls(?) (+1.5)
+50% Hill(?) (+1.5)

An Archer in a city is potentially a 9.75 Strength defender in a worst case scenario and most important of all: First Strike

Culture defence and physical defence (Walls/Castle) don't stack. I'm not sure if Chichen Itza improves cultural defence too, or just physical defence.

With Japan wait for musketmen as these start with the agg/pro promotions. You can really get a stupidly powerful unit from the free promotions you get when you build them.

Don't forget Samurais. They start with Drill I in Beyond the Sword expansion pack, which makes very powerful. Aggressive/Protective-Musketmen defence is more than alright, but I'd attack when I have large Samurai stack, not when I complete researching of Gunpowder.