Talked a bit to Conroe today, and we need to come up with a definitive plan. Some ideas kicked around are:

1) Take Kia Ora and Ciao on the first turn via Pirate attack. Units then try to get to the horses at Privet to disable them.

2) Sail right into the Gulf between Hej and their capital, and take one or both. They might see us coming and would have 1 turn to prepare. We could hide in a new town to be built north of Chappaquiddick SE of the pigs.

3) Some combination of the above or something completely different.

Here is the dotmap:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=152326&d=1178064501

I'm copying this post from strategic affairs thread for easier reference. It is our original invasion plans from a chat that Killercane, Whomp, and myself had about a month ago.

The basic idea is to begin the assualt with our Galleons positioned 4 tiles away from Kia Ora. Line of sight over water is 2 tiles beyond the border. By placing our forces at 4 tiles, they won't see the fleet. We then declare, invade, and capture Kia Ora all on the same turn. This would mean attacking from the ships, and thus a 50% penalty. But cavs versus axes makes it a moot point. ;)

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/62616/mtdg_1040AD_AttackPlan.jpg

Hit 'em hard; hit 'em fast. :D Our doctrine for victory!

But, the whole thing breaks down if Kia Ora gets a border expansion. Hopefully that won't happen in the next 20 turns. But it is a possibility. The city is generating at least 5 culture per turn, and more than likely 7 cpt.

As Killercane noted above, we are thinking about expanding the invasion to include Ciao on the eastern side of Aloha's empire. Ciao would be attacked using the 6 cav's that Epsilon is going to build for us.

Okay, so am I correct in thinking that the ToF would be nine cavs for Kai and six for Ciao?

That makes me nervous. If we are doing pirate attack it seems that our casualties could be high and we wouldn't be able to keep the cities.

I like the idea of a two-pronged attack, but splitting up our forces to that degree makes me nervous.

What about concentrating on Kai as was initially propossed with follow up defensive forces for keeping it.

See if we can arrange a galleon swap with Epsilon and three cavs in the area of the red dot. Have them do a hit and run on the horses near Privit and perhaps hang around to KEEP the horses off-line. (Maybe we could even talk Epsilon into keeping a galleon and three cavs near that red dot to gift back and forth when our raiding force gets weakened?)

In the meanwhile we consolidate Kai and reassemble our naval force to hit Hej/Aloah. If we needed to, we could also keep one Galleon available to ferry troops to Kai and hit Caio overland.

Just another proposal. I really HATE splitting forces until I KNOW what I am getting into.

That makes me nervous. If we are doing pirate attack it seems that our casualties could be high and we wouldn't be able to keep the cities.I ran a test in WB earlier today. I put in 4 boats loaded with 6 cavs and 6 cats. Those went up against a city with 40% cultural border, with two CG1 Musketmen defending.

The first thing that I discovered was that Catapults cannot bombard from sea. :sad: They can collateral, but no bombarding. So that means we have no way of lowering the city's defenses.

Basically, 3 Cavalry was enough to take the city with only a single loss. Tried the test again, but this time with the CG1 muskets having the full 25% fortify bonus. In that scenario, it took 4 Cavalry with 2 casualties.

All of this was done without the assistance of any suicide cats. And going up against a worse case scenario of promoted muskets. I'm not too worried about the initial assualt.

What does worry me is crippling Aloha before they can get their hands on Cossacks. That is one of the reasons Killercane mentioned going after Privet. Aloha's horses are outside of Privet.

Okay, so am I correct in thinking that the ToF would be nine cavs for Kai and six for Ciao?

What about concentrating on Kai as was initially propossed with follow up defensive forces for keeping it.The original plan was to hit them at Kia Ora in a sneak attack and then quickly move onto their capital at Aloha.

Now there is no way that Epsilons 6 Cavalry can be in position in time to participate in the initial assault. So the idea is to attack Ciao on the first turn, raze the city, and march on Privet to secure the horses.

The red dot idea has merit. I'm thinking that is something worth considering ... Because the idea of splitting the forces isn't so much to take cities, but to prevent the appearance of Cossaks. Your red dot idea goes right to the heart of the matter! I like that! And it also increases the odds that we will actually hold onto the horses, once they are razed.

But I'm also thinking that losing two cities before you even know that you are at war would be a huge psycological blow to Aloha. Someone with some MP experience correct me on this point ...

- Are we sure that they are Aloha's only horses? are they trading any away?

- I'm in favor of splitting forces as suggested, but I think that either we need to be building settlers (in just one city) or keeping a couple of the cities.

- was Epsilon supposed to be in this war? I'm not sure that we want them helping if they weren't supposed to be involved, as they'll expect payment of land, gold or both for "helping" however small. And since this is our opportunity to get up to speed with them, I think that it might be best to do this as much by ourselves as possible

- Are we sure that they are Aloha's only horses? are they trading any away?

- I'm in favor of splitting forces as suggested, but I think that either we need to be building settlers (in just one city) or keeping a couple of the cities.

- was Epsilon supposed to be in this war? I'm not sure that we want them helping if they weren't supposed to be involved, as they'll expect payment of land, gold or both for "helping" however small. And since this is our opportunity to get up to speed with them, I think that it might be best to do this as much by ourselves as possible
That was my question exactly, the horses thing. Conroe thinks that they are. C, can you confirm from an old save prior to us hooking up horses? It just seems like they had 2 at some time but I dunno.

Epsilon is not supposed to be in this war but I bet they try to sneak settlers in if we raze too many cities.

In fact I dont like razing cities at all. Aloha's cities should be well placed and they come with population (which we need). The only thing is protectin' em. If we go with the Booti Horse Thrust Plan (tm), right to the heart of the matter, it will be a bit easier to protect. We can hit Privet, maybe even burn it, then hit Ciao and keep it while the other forces move into position.

That was my question exactly, the horses thing. Conroe thinks that they are. C, can you confirm from an old save prior to us hooking up horses? It just seems like they had 2 at some time but I dunno.I believe it is their only source of horses because everybody else only has 1 source. And horses don't randomly pop up like metals do.

But I went back to the 820AD save, which was the turn before we connected our horses. Aloha had only 1 source of horses available to trade. They also had no trade deals other than OB agreements.

Epsilon is not supposed to be in this war but I bet they try to sneak settlers in if we raze too many cities.I'd have to go back and read the fine print of our contract, but I am under the impression that Aloha's lands are ours and Loco's lands are theirs. We then split (as evenly as possible) Innovia's lands.

In fact I dont like razing cities at all.Seems you are not alone. But trying to hold Ciao could be the difference in taking the horses.

Although the more I think about it, I really like Kickbooti's idea of going straight for the horses. It is not as bold of a move, but it is probably safer. I figure we can see what their tech does over the next 10 turns before we decide.

I don't know, though, some of you MP folks tell me ... would there be a psycological benefit to capturing 2 cities on the first turn of the war? In other words, is it worth our trouble to plan it out?

What about we forget Ciao, send 2 galleons loaded with cavs to Privet, take and hold Kia Ora, and then go for the capital and Hej with boats and boats of catapults? We can move all axes up to Kia Ora and upgrade them up there. It shouldnt take but a few maces/cavalry to take Kia Ora, with or without catapults. If they do have a lot of troops there we can destroy em with cats.

We can then take Ciao at our leisure, and make headways into the interior. Without Hej and their capital they are cooked.

To get up to Privet we might have to send cavs up through Epsilon and only send empty galleons there so that will take some planning.

Some production numbers (assuming I can add):

We can have 13 cavs ready to go in the next 14 turns. This includes the Chariot upgrades, but it does not include the Epsilon units.

Alternatively, in that same 14 turn period, we can have 11 cavs and 3 CG2 muskets. The advantage of the CG2 muskets is that they free up the cavs from having to defend the captured cities.


My guess is that 6 cavs, attacking from the sea, will be more than enough to take the Aloha capital. And another 4 cavs for Kia Ora. With support from the cats, of course.

I like the plan of ignoring Ciao and going for Privet with Epsilon cavs.

The thing is that these other cities won't have the production to generate cossacks like their capital will have. I'd actually be completely fine with taking Kia Ora and their capital and holding them and ignoring (for the moment) the eastern cities. Leaving those cities there will allow us to reinforce our western forces and (as an added benefit) will keep the rumored Epsilon settler horde at bay.

If we take Kia, the capital, and Privet/Ciao, we wont have to defend those cities, and we can always use maces brought from the rear. More cavs no muskets! Cats everywhere! No more buildings other than the grocer! Units units units! Give Robi and BCLG a taste of their own poi!

I reworked the attack plan to include the city of Hej, as Killercane suggested. Originally we were just going after Kia Ora and Aloha.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/62616/mtdg_1050AD_AttackPlan.jpg

We will need to train 12 cavs, and a few more cats and boats as well. It will take 16 turns to get all of the forces equiped. It will then take another 3 turns to get all of the forces to the staging area. So we would potentially be looking at declaring in 19 turns.

If we take Kia, the capital, and Privet/Ciao, we wont have to defend those cities, and we can always use maces brought from the rear. More cavs no muskets! Cats everywhere! No more buildings other than the grocer!Not sure I agree with you on the maces over muskets ... Aloha had horses connected up long before anybody else did. And I recall someone saying that BCLG preferred the ponies. My guess is we will be defending those cities over there against Knights. Those Knights will chew up our Macemen. Whereas a CG2 Musketman will be a pretty good defender against an Aloha attack.

I dunno, I think I still prefer 2 cavalry instead of 3 muskets. Kia wont need to be defended I dont think (they would have to first bypass the capital which we will hold), and each cavalry can do well enough defending vs. Knights.

Will we be getting Engineering anytime soon to upgrade the spears?

Edit: We can sail the cavs up to the tundra above Privet, drop em off, and then return our 2 galleons. This is a 12-14 turn round trip but we can reuse the galleons closer to home. So as soon as we get the troops for this we need to head that way, and have them positioned to get there the quickest (dont know where that is). We also need to avoid any Aloha boats including that galley of theirs.

I dunno, I think I still prefer 2 cavalry instead of 3 muskets. Kia wont need to be defended I dont think (they would have to first bypass the capital which we will hold),Alrighty, no muskets. At least not in the first wave. You are probably correct in that they won't counter at Kia Ora. :hmm: They are going to see all of those Galleons sailing up thier coast heading towards Pearl Harbor. They are probably going to start moving in extra troops to defend Aloha (least I'd do that). We may need the extra offensive strength. Probably ought to work in an extra boat or two, as well ....


As for Privet, I have not worked that into any of my numbers. I was thinking of using the Epsilon troops for that part of the campaign.

With my extremely limited MP experience, from a logistics standpoint, taking Kia Ora and Ciao in one turn and threatening their capital and Hej from there would be staggering from a psychological standpoint. That's half their lands in 3 turns.

A lot more data will be welcome, and hopefully Epsilon comes through with some nice maps for us.

Edit: forgot the logistics bit. I meant to add that it would take a bit of time to move troops all the way around to take the horses, a point which has been made prior. But I felt it worth re-iterating. If we could get Epsilon to do that for us, it would be wonderful... but it would also put us in their pocket.

Been playing around in excel -- it looks like we can have 14 cav's, 12 cat's, and 9 boats in the next 15 turns. Is everybody OK with those numbers? Because if they are adequate, we can be in a position to declare in 1230AD.

Can the boats be at Destination Red Booti Dot to let off cavs sooner? In other words, let the troops off there on say turn 10, and have the galleons be coming back down to pick up reinforcements to go to Kia Ora after the main wave goes in? Say on Turns 18-20.

I haven't figured out a good way to integrate the attack on Privet into our war plans. Your idea of a 14-turn round trip to drop off some cavs was a good idea. But, that 14-turn round trip pretty much means that those boats are not available for the main assault (at least not for a 1230AD assault).

At least not in a way that I can visualize in my head. :dunno: I guess before we can answer your question we would need to know how many troops are needed for the Hej/Aloha assault.

Well how soon can we have about 6 cavalry? Those can be first on the ships to go up north.

Edit: It will take 6 turns for them to get there. We could pick up some more troops above Argyles Watch to take on Ciao. I dont know about this however, as we wont have enough troops maybe for the main assault. We need to figure out what to do with all the maces (axes) we have. 6 of them can either burn Ciao or at least provide a distraction upon landing. I have to think that the cavalry above Privet would be as surprising as Aloha troops coming from where our silver is.

Could Epsilon gift us a couple of galleons and transport the Privit offensive? We just give them back, but it would keep our timetable on track.

Edit: It will take 6 turns for them to get there. We could pick up some more troops above Argyles Watch to take on Ciao. I dont know about this however, as we wont have enough troops maybe for the main assault. We need to figure out what to do with all the maces (axes) we have. 6 of them can either burn Ciao or at least provide a distraction upon landing. I have to think that the cavalry above Privet would be as surprising as Aloha troops coming from where our silver is.I would prefer to use Epsilon's troops to pillage the ponies. The main assault of Aloha and Hej is what will handicap Aloha. The ponies at Privet are just an insurance policy. The troops we are training over the next 15 turns should IMHO be reserved for the main assault. That leaves Epsilon's troops.

The attack on Ciao, I think, is out. It is a nothing city -- it doesn't have a Forge and there are no visible mines. Securing the horses at Privet is the goal. Since Epsilon must bring the cavs to Brilliant in order to gift them to us, any operation must begin at Brilliant. And hopefully Epsilon will have 3 Cavalry to us in time.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/62616/mtdg_1050AD_RedBooti.jpg

The idea is that the forces muster at Brilliant 4 turns prior to the assault on Kia Ora. They sail north hugging the Epsilon coast line. The landing will be coordinated with the assault on Kia Ora. When the main assualt force musters, this force turns west towards Aloha's coast line. They will be undetectable under the black fog during turn 0 of the war.

On turn 1 of the war, we take Kia Ora. That same turn our cav's land on a hill outside of Privet. Two turns later, the horses are pillaged. And Aloha and Hej also fall.

The horses can be pillaged a turn sooner by departing Brilliant 2 turns sooner. But that depends on how quickly Epsilon supplies the Cavalry.

This plan involves :whipped: one more Galleon, giving us a total of 10 Galleons. It also assumes that 3 Cavalry will be enough to hold the horse tile outside of Privet. Privet itself will NOT be assaulted unless it is poorly defended.

So, is 3 Cavalry enough?

The horses can be pillaged a turn sooner by departing Brilliant 2 turns sooner. But that depends on how quickly Epsilon supplies the Cavalry.

This plan involves :whipped: one more Galleon, giving us a total of 10 Galleons. It also assumes that 3 Cavalry will be enough to hold the horse tile outside of Privet. Privet itself will NOT be assaulted unless it is poorly defended.

So, is 3 Cavalry enough?

All we need to do is cut the road to the ponies. I think three Cav's would be enough to hit and run. If not, Epsilon would probably have our remaining three ready. With the mountains etc., around the horses I think our cav's could cut, run and harry.

All we need to do is cut the road to the ponies. I think three Cav's would be enough to hit and run. If not, Epsilon would probably have our remaining three ready. With the mountains etc., around the horses I think our cav's could cut, run and harry.Good point. :thumbsup: I hadn't thought of that. With our cavs sentried nearby and the roads pillaged, they wouldn't dare bring out the work crews. That'll work!


As for Epsilon, they said they would see about having all 6 cavs to us in 20 turns. But, I'd rather not wait that long to begin the offensive.

If Kia Ora gets one more border expansion, it is no longer a sneak attack. They will see our forces muster.

I have been reading up on the attack plan and you guys seem to reasoning through the different ideas very carefully, but one I thing I have noticed that is not being discussed much are contingency plans. It would seem to me that while we plan this attack we should think of at least a few of the most likely situations that could pop up that may alter the effectiveness of the attack. If something comes up, we should try to have a backup plan or a way around the problem. The last thing we want is to be in the midst of our attack plan and get blindsided by something we should have been able to foresee.

What happens if we move to take the horses and we find that they had extra troops nearby and are able to defend that tile?
Where might they be harboring their extra troops? Could there be a way to lure them away from our primary target with some type of distraction? What happens if Kia Ora does expand its borders? What happens if we are attacked while in preparation or at war?

You guys know the situation much better than I and I am sure you can think of some more likely and pertinent situations.

Contingency plan is a good point, I guess it would be just pillage as much as possible around their big cities.

3 cavs sounds fine. We are whipping a galleon out of brilliant right?

You guys know the situation much better than I and I am sure you can think of some more likely and pertinent situations.Good questions! :thumbsup: :thumbsup: I like that! It makes me stop and think. That is how we make sure we don't miss anything. Especially the obvious. Keep 'em coming!

I have been reading up on the attack plan and you guys seem to reasoning through the different ideas very carefully, but one I thing I have noticed that is not being discussed much are contingency plans.In order to do a contingency plan, you must first do a risk assessment. We have done that. Have we missed something? :dunno: I prefer to do worst case scenario planning. So we have attempted to include any known risks into the main assault plan.

You may recall that the initial WB testing used CG Musketmen. A much tougher defender, and yet Aloha lacks the technology. But it is reasonable that they could acquire the technology soon.

The whole discussion of the ponies at Privet is in case Aloha manages to gain access to Cossacks. And even then, the strength 10 Knight will be their strongest counter force. And we also know that their turn player, BCLG100, likes to play with the ponies.

What happens if Kia Ora gets a border expansion? It is no longer a surprise attack. They will have a 1 turn advance warning. We are taking 4 cav's to assault Kia Ora. As of 10 turns ago (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=5326837&postcount=394), Kia Ora was defended by an Axeman and a Warrior.

A bigger concern is that Aloha recently acquired Optics. What happens if they build a Caravel and discover our fleet? And we already know, from Epsilon, that Aloha has a Galley that will be sailing to Brilliant. We have taken steps to hide the fleet. At 6 turns prior to the invasion, the fleet will be brought back. Thus reducing the possible warning time to 6 turns.

What happens if we move to take the horses and we find that they had extra troops nearby and are able to defend that tile?
Where might they be harboring their extra troops? Could there be a way to lure them away from our primary target with some type of distraction?:hmm: The best way to answer this, I think, is to have a look at the power graph. These folks are not prepared for war. On top of that, they have scaled back on GNP and increased manufacturing. But since there is no increase in power, those extra hammers are being directed to either infrastructure or wonders. Certainly not troops.

http://img293.imageshack.us/img293/2330/mtdg1050adpowerug1.jpg

But, this also brings up the biggest risk of all. Well, second biggest. That power graph does not include a single Cavalry. When our cavs start coming off the line, you are going to see a white line heading straight up. In addition, Epsilon is about to start training Cavalry, as well. So that will be another straight line up.

Now, when two of your neighbors have a power rating off the chart, what do you do? (Besides changing your shorts?) Our contingency? Overwhelming force! And we have advanced our timetable by 5 turns. Hit 'em hard; hit 'em fast!

3 cavs sounds fine. We are whipping a galleon out of brilliant right?I'm currently planning on whipping 3 boats at Brilliant and another 2 out of Twaddle. Brilliant has the food to whip a lot more, but we run the risk of making the city totally useless. The city will have about 50 turns of whip anger to work off after those 3 boats.

I like your point Conroe, if they notice that power graph continuing to rise in the next handful of turns, it's not going to be a surprise attack anyway. If you think they are likely to check that, we may not be able to wait to have the perfect troop setup.

Conroe
Are you planning for a second wave? What are the logistics for that? Do we have enough defensive support for the home front?
BB

iirc, there are some maces for homeland defense. 2nd wave = more cavs

if they notice that power graph continuing to rise in the next handful of turns, it's not going to be a surprise attack anyway.True. I shall leave that problem to the diplomats of the group. :shifty: Killercane is scheduling a chat session with Aloha, in which he will reassure them. :D "No! No! No! Those boats are heading to Loco ..."

Are you planning for a second wave? What are the logistics for that?Nope. :nope: Wouldn't be a bad idea, though. Suggestions are always welcome. We'll have 10 boats and Hamburger will be cranking out a cav every other turn by then.

Do we have enough defensive support for the home front?Enough? How about any? Nope. :nope: We are counting on the fact that Aloha does not have Astronomy and therefore cannot launch a sea-based invasion. They will have to come down by Chappaquiddick. Our forces will see them coming and we will then divert some cavs to defend the isthmus.

iirc, there are some maces for homeland defense. 2nd wave = more cavsI would love to save our Macemen for upgrading to Redcoats. CRIII Redcoats will be unbelievably overpowered. But, I sense that I may be a minority on this point ...

no I would be fine with redcoats.

Turn 169 - 1090AD

Aloha has acquired Military Tradition!

..........

Aloha has hit the :whipped: for 1 pop in their capital. Personally, I don't like whipping my capital while in bureaucracy. So what was so all fired important to warrant the whip? The Heroic Epic! Timed to complete just as MT comes available. :dubious: I must confess, I probably would have :whipped: the HE, as well. :yup: Nothing like 2-turn Cossacks coming out of the starting gate!
Assuming that Aloha has dastardly plans for our future....and since they don't have astronomy.. that means that they'll be heading through the isthmus.

That could still be good for us. They'll likely have the force build up on their west coast and I would recommend hitting their capital first to stop the flow of cossacks. Is that doable?

P'rhaps we should attack a few turns sooner? Take Kia Ora and hold it down while we shipchain other units there. Kill the galley and send troops up to their horses?

They'll likely have the force build up on their west coast and I would recommend hitting their capital first to stop the flow of cossacks. Is that doable?The original plan called for a 2 prong attack against their capital and the horse resources. The assault on Kia Ora was more for effect.

Edit: To answer your question, yes it is doable. But Aloha would see our forces sailing up their coast towards their capital, so there is no possibility of a surprise attack.

P'rhaps we should attack a few turns sooner? Take Kia Ora and hold it down while we shipchain other units there. Kill the galley and send troops up to their horses?An interesting idea ... :hmm: worth exploring ...

You realize we've only got 2 cavs at this point? Where do we go after Kia Ora? Do we march on Aloha (HE) or Privet (horses)?

Just took a cursory look at a possible timetable of Killercane's suggestion ...

It will take 2 turns to get 2 Galleons over to Twaddle. That would put them there at 1110AD with no movement left. In that time period, we can have 4 cav's ready to sail (5 if we delay another turn).

Another 2 turns to sail to Kia Ora and we attack on 1130AD. Aloha should have 2 Cossacks at that point. And possibly another 2 by 1140AD.

Can we have the ships loaded up with cats at that time?

Can we have the ships loaded up with cats at that time?Hmmmm :confused: not 100% sure what you are asking here ... It will take 4 turns to get all four boats back to Twaddle. So on the fifth turn (1140AD) they will have movement and begin operations.

But assuming we don't need all 4 boats to begin the assault on Kia Ora, we can begin operations sooner. I calculated 1030AD when I initially looked at it above. But if we replace one of the cav's (3 instead of 4) with a cat, we can invade a turn sooner (1120AD).

Edit: Once the offensive begins, it will take 2 more turns to setup the ship chain. Thus the initial invasion force will need to withstand any counter-attacks for 2 more turns before reinforcements arrive. Kia Ora is located 5 tiles from their capital.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In case anyone is interested, I've calculated out our production capacity. Our previous plan required us to have 10 boats all together. I've replaced the extra boats with Catapults in this estimate.

153294

And here is an estimate of Aloha's production capabilities:

153293

The assumptions that I used to derive Aloha's numbers were that their capital could do 2 turn Cossacks and that Hej and one other city could do 4 turn Cossacks. And since they have a better base mfg number than we do, they should be able to have another couple cities turning out Cossacks, as well. Hopefully these Aloha numbers are a worst-case estimate.

P'rhaps we should attack a few turns sooner? Take Kia Ora and hold it down while we shipchain other units there. Kill the galley and send troops up to their horses?I've given this a bit of thought today to try and figure out how to do it. And frankly, I'm not seeing it ....

1120AD - attack Kia Ora with 3 cavs and 3 cats.
1160AD - begin marching north with 8 cavs and 7 cats.
1170AD - ship chain arrives with 3 more cats.
1200AD - begin assault on Aloha Capital.

By my estimate, Aloha could possibly field 10-13 Cossacks by 1200AD. With those numbers, I think we lose the battle ... and ultimately the war. :eek:





Oh and I also think we need to raze Kia Ora. The city has a single mined hill visible, but it does not have a Barracks or a Forge. I don't think this is one of their production cities. There is no way we can march on the Aloha capital and defend Kia Ora.

Ideally it may be better to bypass Kia Ora and go straight for the Aloha capital. They'll see us coming, of course .... but it would be faster than sailing all the way to Privet.

Their capital BTW has not only the Heroic Epic, but also the Globe Theatre.

Have we had any word on Epsilon help for pillaging those horses? Or is that something we decided not to even broach with them?

We havent discussed it with them I dont think but we can.

I would be surprised (and worried) to learn that Epsilon had a couple of Galleons in position on the Aloha side of their continent. Because without those Galleons, they are not in a position to provide assistance. It will most likely take Epsilon the same number of turns as it would for us to sail up the coast to Privet.



The problem, as I see it, is time. It is going to take too many turns to deal a crippling blow to Aloha. And in that amount of time, they have the potential to train quite a few Cossacks.

Well the Privet operation wont cut it with only a few cavalry, they will annihilate that force with their cossacks. I think our only options now are burning Kia and the capital or just going straight for the capital.

I'm assuming that we all agree that the original (pre-Cossack) plans are off the table?

I think our only options now are burning Kia and the capital or just going straight for the capital.Not sure which option is better, so taking each one separately ....

Kia/Capital: Use 2 Galleons (3 cavs & 3 cats) to take and raze Kia Ora. Ship chain reinforcements until 1150AD when (8 cavs & 7 cats) begin to march to Aloha capital. Ship chain 3 more cats along the way. Attack the capital in 1200AD with 8 cavs & 10 cats.

Capital Only: Use 3 Galleons (5 cavs & 4 cats) to sail up the Aloha coast to the capital. Our fleet would be visible in 1130AD. In 1150AD we would declare and land our forces on a hill next to the capital. Attack the capital in 1160AD with 5 cavs & 4 cats.

3rd Option: is to not invade at all. Send everything we've got to defend Chappaquiddick. All the while researching to Rifling.



Time to vote! The save should be back in our hands in about 6 hours. Which option do we want to do? Or is there a better option?

I vote to raze their capital, but why couldn't we attack the city from the boats if it is lightly defended?

Kia and then the capital for sure, I guess we cant get enough cat support up to go take the capital only? But Kia is their shipping center towards us, it wont be bad to raze. It will be nice to be in a war!

I vote to raze their capital, but why couldn't we attack the city from the boats if it is lightly defended?My guess is the capital will not be lightly defended. I figure it will be jam packed with Cossacks.

It will be nice to be in a war!Hmmmmm :hmm: reminds me of those famous words (http://www.moviesoundclips.net/movies1/aliens/elevator.wav) by a certain Private Hudson ...

Thats a bad link to the Aliens file!

I just looked at the save. We need to recall all the galleons west of Chappa and load them up regardless, and move the galleon by the capital over to get loaded up. Why are they all the way out there? Better to hide them at least somewhere close.

Lets raze KO with the biggest force we can muster; I hate that it takes 10 turns to get to the gulf by their cap but so be it. If the capital is highly defended we can sail up to Hej and raze it; I dont think they can defend both well enough.

If we choose to not attack and not upgrade troops, how fast can we research Rifling at 100%? I mean, we are getting a bunch of cash from a GM really soon, aren't we?

Thats a bad link to the Aliens file!Odd. The link works for me. Nothing terribly important, though. Just my thoughts about how badly we're going to die in this war ... :(

Why are they [the Galleons] all the way out there?That's all been pretty well documented in my turn reports. But basically it was to prevent some prying Aloha eyes from getting wind of the fact that we were going to attack them in 20 or so turns. A bit of a moot point, now.

Lets raze KO with the biggest force we can muster;Can you elaborate on biggest force we can muster? 3 cav's and 3 cats can depart next turn and raze Kia Ora in 2 turns. How many troops do you think we need? And, what time frame do we need them?

If the capital is highly defended we can sail up to Hej and raze it; I dont think they can defend both well enough.Ok, you've lost me here. The original plan called for us to sail up the coast, but I thought your new plan was to ship chain reinforcements? And besides, if we've already landed, why not just march up the Aloha coast rather than taking the 50% amphibous penalty?

If we choose to not attack and not upgrade troops, how fast can we research Rifling at 100%? I mean, we are getting a bunch of cash from a GM really soon, aren't we?We can have Rifling in 23 turns at 100%. That could probably be lowered to about 20 by tweaking the ecomony for max commerce.

As for the GM, don't forget that we only get half the bounty. About 500 gold would be my guess. Thus we could only sustain 100% for about 10 turns.


Assuming that Aloha has dastardly plans for our future....and since they don't have astronomy.. that means that they'll be heading through the isthmus.They do have dastardly plans! Behold the city they have just built!

http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/4876/mtdg1100adcrossingbk8.jpg

I assume there is a city at white dot. And after a border pop (another 5 turns), their Galleys will be able to reach us via that 1 tile island.

I'm rather surprised that our friends with the Caravel didn't send us an intel photo. Especially considering the number of photos that I have sent to them.

and Chamnix wonders why noone likes his team :rolleyes:

Ok, you've lost me here. The original plan called for us to sail up the coast, but I thought your new plan was to ship chain reinforcements? And besides, if we've already landed, why not just march up the Aloha coast rather than taking the 50% amphibous penalty?
I thought we were razing KO, then loading back up and sailing over to the Hej/Capital City gulf. We can attack either of those cities from there. We probably should raze that other city they just founded as well. If we march up the coast we have no defense against the Cossacks.

and Chamnix wonders why noone likes his team :rolleyes:
Chamnix? ....+xcl

I thought we were razing KO, then loading back up and sailing over to ...Ok .... but then why the ship chain?


Edit: Should we just schedule a chat on MSN to discuss our war plans? It might be easier ...

:bump:

So what's the plan for the invasion? Are we ship chaining troops and attacking the capital over land? Or do we sail the coast and hit their capital with whatever we have available?


Also, how many units do we need for Kia Ora? How many for their capital?

I dont know about the shipchain, I guess we can do it and hold KO and destroy the other town they just founded. If we do that we can march on their capital in a few turns and just try to trade cavs. Based on the power graph this should work, we have a 1/3 edge in power. We just have to keep pumping out the units.

We need some pikes as well. Once we have 4-6 of those we can gather a bigger stack.

Razing Kia Ora and the new city sounds good. Back on the boats after both encounters; we don't want to give their Cossacks any targets to attack. Either way, we need to be the aggressors, because it would be very bad to see Cossacks in our home lands.

I take it we revolt to Merc as soon as we can bear a 1-turn loss of production.

I really don't like these turn of events. Any chance Epsilon is giving us the :backstab: and stacking Aloha against us?

Lets raze KO with the biggest force we can muster; I hate that it takes 10 turns to get to the gulf by their cap but so be it.How many troops do we need to take Aloha's capital?
8 Cavalry & 10 Catapults can attack in 1200AD (overland)
5 Cavalry & 7 Catapults can attack in 1150AD (by land or by boat)
4 Cavalry & 8 Catapults can attack in 1140AD (by boat)
BTW, it is currently 1100AD.


I think we are SOL if Epsilon does decide to give us the :backstab:.

The only advantage we would seem to have left is our galleons (cavs and suprise seem to have gone - did epsilon or innovia sell us out?).. at least until redcoats, so we could utilise this by using guerrilla (seems absurd at sea) tactics, and retreating to the sea again (are any of the galleons promotable to medic?) Razing the 2 southern seaside cities would seem a prudent step, and at least we could dominate the sea and get intelligence this way, making a counter attack very difficult, and giving us time to get rifling. Going straight for the capital seems to be putting all our eggs in one basket... what if it fails?

Of course, I say this without civ at the moment, and am a little unsure of the defence of the capital and the chance of success. If we have a good chance at it, or if eps can speed up their cav gifts, let's go for it. If we've missed this chance at their capital, let's not get stuck with anm outdated plan.

Going straight for the capital seems to be putting all our eggs in one basket... what if it fails?We're done... but the same is true if we spread too thin and don't focus on the right thing and we end up losing our cavs and have a declaration of war vs a team with Cossacks without an ability to defend currently

Going straight for the capital seems to be putting all our eggs in one basket... what if it fails?We're done... but the same is true if we spread too thin and don't focus on the right thing and we end up losing our cavs and have a declaration of war vs a team with Cossacks without an ability to defend currentlyAs Tubby says, we're done. If any part of our invasion fails, we're done.

But I don't think we can allow their capital to stand, either. It has the Heroic Epic and the Globe Theatre. It is (most likely) their largest city. It could potentially be half of their production capability.

And, sadly, we will probably raze it to the ground ...

Well we arent done by any means if we fail to take the capital; hey we can still kill em with ships! And they have to make a landing anyway (tough).

I think we should just take what the defense gives us atm, and see how the power numbers shake out after we raze those two cities asap.

OK, no response on my last query. So I went with speed. How about this for a timetable?
1120AD: raze Kia Ora with 3 Cavs & 3 Cats (2 boats)
1140AD: raze Aloha Capital with 4 Cavs & 8 Cats (4 boats)
1140AD: simultaneously raze Allegra with 1 Cav & 1 Cat (1 boat)
1150AD: raze Hej with whatever is left over from capital assault
1170AD: reinforcements arrive at Pearl Harbor (2 Cavs & 1 Cat)
1210AD: overland assault of Privet (assuming anything survives) and raze itThoughts?

Well we arent done by any means if we fail to take the capital;Their capital should be able to turn out 2-turn Cossacks. Meanwhile it will take us 3-5 turns just to get reinforcements landed.

We are sorely lacking in production capabilities. We've now lost our tech advantage over them. The only way I see us winning is to quickly and decidedly cripple their production capacity. That means taking out their HE city.

If we fail? I still think Tubby is correct ... We're done!

I think that it's a no-brainer... people with fighting skillz figure out how many units we need to most likely take theri capital and roast marshmallows in the embers. hit them as quick as we can with as much as we can.

if we don't, we lose... if we fail, we lose.... so let's just win

READY



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BREAK

Ha. On two. Ok I like the updated timetable. Lets do that. We can always call the forces back if we cant take the city, or go on to Hej. I still think we are fine even if we fail; they cant build boats except at their capital and Hej so they wont be exactly swarming us with Cossacks before we get our UU.

1140AD: simultaneously raze Allegra with 1 Cav & 1 Cat (1 boat)

:cool: nice and ambitious... I like it. The updated timetable seems pretty good to me. (damn I wish I could view the save)

You get my vote. Time for the Hail Mary pass (and so early in the game!)

Man I'm glad you guys know what the heck you're doing. I like it.
Here's my speech...
But I firmly believe that any man's finest hour, his greatest fulfillment of all he holds dear, is the moment when he has worked his heart out in a good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle - victorious.--Vince LomWhompdi

I too am glad you guys are carying the ball on this.

I can only add my words of encouragement as well.

http://www.finebaum.com/audio2_2001.html (click on Bobby Kinght's Rant).

On to victory!

This turn will be a good one! Hope Loco plays quickly.

... maybe the last good one? :scared:

not unexpected either....Well its a well known fact that tubby isn't much of a poetIs Robi's reply an attempt cover up a perceived slip of classified info? Robboo's statement can be interpreted in a number of ways. But Robi's reply doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

I wonder if Aloha has just told us that Innovia gave us up?

Robboo's a bit of a pot stirrer so it's possible he let the cat out of the bag.

Robi D's comments probably don't mean anything since Robi D, Mauer and I had some pitboss conflict with Tubs, Robboo and GeorgeOP and Robi's on our c3c MTDG team. I think there's a bit of good natured ribbing going on.

Tubs and I are having a hard time remembering who's on who's team!! :lol:

yes.. I took no offense to any comments directed my way. Robboo will let info out if you get him talking enough. So could someone befriend him on MSN? :mischief:

No, I didn't mean to imply that Robi's comments were offensive. I just find his reply to Robboo as odd and unnecessary. It is Robi's reply that makes me think that Robboo said too much.

I have been very careful not to give Aloha any in-game warnings. No scouting or anything like that. Maybe they figured it out based upon Epsilon's scouting pattern? :dunno: It just seems most likely that Innovia was the source. I probably need to dig through the thread and find the transcript of that conversation ....

To quote the great S. Baldrick: "I have a cunning plan!"

With BCLG's comments about Epsilon in the main forum, what if we asked Epsilon to declare on us? :eek: It would be a phoney war, of course. And I'm not sure if Aloha will buy it ....

I think the rules have something to say about phony wars... I'll go check now

eDIT:: nope just checked and there's nothing about phony wars.... I'd be a little leary about anyone declaring on us. and anyone who knows how to look at the power graph can plainly see that we wouldn't be fighting. and why would we care about if everyone knows that Epsilon and us are in bed together?

They still owe us cavalry units, correct?

I find it funny that GenW is calling for peace when clearly Conroe pointed out in the Stories of Bravery and such that we clearly were not the aggressors in the whole episode. Also aren't they going to be declaring on Loco soon? :lol:

Between the quick technology increase of Aloha and the 2 robs' comments, I'm inclined to agree. Any chance Innovia was just trying to stir up an attack against us from Aloha and we caught it before it finished? I don't remember, but weren't they a prime candidate as a source for some of the techs that Aloha has recently gotten?

Any chance Innovia was just trying to stir up an attack against us from Aloha and we caught it before it finished? I don't remember, but weren't they a prime candidate as a source for some of the techs that Aloha has recently gotten?No, they couldn't have gotten the techs from Innovia. Innovia doesn't have them.

Aloha most likely researched either Gunpower or Military Tradition. And then traded for the other. They told KC that they were researching MT. Gunpowder could have come from either Loco or Epsilon. MT could have only come from Epsilon.

My guess is Loco is their trading partner. At one point, Loco picked up 60 gold from somebody. And I also think they traded for Nationalism.

If we got Epsilon to declare on us they wouldn't be able to give us the troops (or have we got them?), otherwise this may confuse people even if only for a few turns. It would then however confirm that we have not only been trading but are actively working together.

I've given some thought to a new plan, since we are unable to take their capital. As suggested, we park our 4 boats outside of Aloha and have a look at Hej next turn. This garrison will be reinforced with 2 more boats carrying 4 more cavs. It will take 5 turns for the reinforcements to arrive.

We currently have a boat off the coast of Allegra. I'm thinking of heading this boat NE, to a position that is no longer visible to Aloha. They will probably presume that it went west. Here we have an option: we could hit Ciao next turn. This city could possibly be undefended if they pull every availble unit to defend their capital. Alternatively, this boat, with its 2 cavs, can be saved for an assault on Privet. We will need Epsilons cav's for that. The first one arrives next turn.

It will take 7 turns to sail to Privet. The earliest that we can depart is next turn. Would 3 cavs be enough to take Privet? :dunno: I'd rather have 5. Hopefully one of our diplomats will be able to light a fire underneath their behinds.

I'm also thinking we turn research back on and forego future upgrades.

I agree with research on. Redcoats would turn all this discussion on its heels.