View Full Version : The useless Wonder.


Moon Pine
May 12, 2007, 10:55 AM
:D What`s the worst wonders,you think? I just find most of the wonders in Civ4 is not worth building.:cry:
Most useless: Chichen Itza (+25% defense in all your cities
) :eek: I never build walls let along this......Wonder?
The Pyramid (Enables all government civics) :scan: You`re making me laughing for spend 450:hammers: in early for not gov civics(Dare you use some other civics instead of Hereditary in Early game? ). If, it enable Bureaucracy, Free Speech, Emancipation, State Property, Pacifism or Free Religion......The only useful is Representation - maybe it`s useful, but worth 450:hammers:?
The Kremlin(-33% hurry production cost ): :mad: HURRY PRODUCTION? If I have the money( Slavery? Crazy...... ), I`ll boost my tech researching.

GoodSarmatian
May 12, 2007, 11:26 AM
The Pyramids are great.
Representation is one of the best civics and you have the option to adopt Universal Suffrage for rushing (but without towns it's only worth it for Spiritual civs).
And the engineer points are quite nice...Great Enginners are also the only reason to build the Hagia Sophia.

KMadCandy
May 12, 2007, 12:02 PM
chicken pizza is probably the worst wonder IMO. i got it for free the other night, peacefully flipped the city that had it by culture, and i still didn't care *giggle*. that's what i consider useless, if you spend no hammers making it yourself and still don't really see a point to having it :lol:. then again everybody liked me, i might have appreciated it more if folks had DoWd me in that game. i culture-flipped hagia sophia in another city, and that was really nice, since it never went obsolete (cultural victory, i was never going to research chemistry or steam power). not usually a wonder i care about, but in that situation, it was the only way my workers would ever get faster!

pyramids, i totally disagree with you. they're fantastic, one of the most powerful wonders out there. rep is awesome, and the road to constitution is long without it. if you're running SE, you're gonna get enough beakers back by the time you learn const to justify the 450 hammer cost of building it. and it can let you focus your research differently--since you have rep, you have the freedom to concentrate on the bottom half of the tech tree (guilds/banking/etc) if that's your sort of thing earlier than you could if you felt that you had to rush to constitution for representation. police state can be spiffy too if you like to clobber people over the head.

what's very very nice if you can swing it is to get an early GE by building great wall and/or a forge from early metalcasting and use him to build pyramids free, so that you don't spend the 450 hammers. that method does not always work out. hoping a neighbor builds it, and that you can capture it early, sometimes works; sometimes the RNG defines "neighbor" as somebody overseas, or shaka with 4 metal sources all directly underneath cities when you're playing egpyt and have horses, but no metals of your own, that sort of thing ... those don't always work out either. ;)

Thedrin
May 12, 2007, 01:55 PM
Chichen Itza is the worst. Increasing the defensive bonus by 25% doesn't increase the number of siege units required to reduce defences to 0%. A much better bonus would be a 25% reduction in bombardment damage (similar to that provided by walls and castles).

Another disagreeing with the idea that the Pyramids are a bad wonder. It's certainly expensive and I won't go for it often but it provides so much freedom in the early game that I have to rate it as one of the most fun wonders in the game.

I know it's a popular wonder but, unless I really want that opening great prophet, I don't think that Stonehenge is worth the effort. I don't go for religeous strategies often but when I do, I often pick Egypt or the Arabs for unique building prophet points. Alternatively, any spiritual civ comes with cheap temples.

DrewBledsoe
May 12, 2007, 02:22 PM
By far the worst wonder, is the Hagia Sophia, as even on huge maps, you just don't need the workers to do 50% more work at that time of the game, there isn't (or shouldn't) be much left to do.....Chichen Itza is most probably 2nd worst.

Edit: And to my utmost glee, one of the ais always seems to pop an engineer around that time, and uses him to rush said Hagia Sophia...a horrible, horrible waste

Bongo-Bongo
May 12, 2007, 02:42 PM
Hagia Sofia and Chichen Itza are definetley the worst. The worker bonus for Hagia Sofia is nothing spectacular, certainly not worth the productions costs, and the defence bonus that Chichen Itza gives is worthless. It doesn't take any longer to bombard the defences then it would if it wasn't there.

The Kremlin isn't much better though. The sheer fact that you need to be running Universal Sufferage in order to get the bonus makes building it seem pointless.

Finally, whilst not a bad wonder, the Hanging Gardens can be a double edged sword. The extra health is obviously great, and the extra population points is very useful towards your score, but this can sometimes drag your city into unhappiness. Not a bad wonder, but it's not always that beneficial.

KMadCandy
May 12, 2007, 02:46 PM
@bongo-bongo: kremlin "hurrying" counts for pop-rushing too. hanging gardens i often prefer to capture, the instant growth spurt can be a hassle.

Thedrin
May 12, 2007, 02:52 PM
I'll agree with the Hagia Sofia. I never persue great engineers - to me they are the downside of the Pyramids - and I only ever consider switching to serfdom when I'm a spiritual civ. I don't often make such a switch during the pre-steam power lifetime of the Hagia Sofia.

I'll disagree about the double-edged sword affect of the Hanging Gardens. If it does increase a city's population above the happiness cap, then the only real difference is that an extra 2 (or possibly 3) :food: are consumed. You don't have to increase your food output to meet this extra demand since the citizen is useless. You can also whip away the extra citizen.

DrewBledsoe
May 12, 2007, 03:13 PM
Sorry to butt in again, ;) but the Gardens (for a huge map / marathon ) player like myself, are one of my fav wonders. As Thedrin said, you can almost always do something with the extra populace, and since I generally get Monarchy first, happiness is not an issue at that time, but health often is.

And The Kremlin in a recentish game was a huge boon. It was a tiny islands / huge map, with most cities having very little land area, and hardly any production, but I had a huge amount of commerce and hence lots of gold to spend rushing. Since many cities started very late (as I said because of the map type, 60% of the world land was vacant until Astronomy), in a lot of cities, I bought most buildings.

And last point, what on earth's wrong with running Uni Suff anyways? In many games it's a no-brainer.

Defiant47
May 12, 2007, 03:42 PM
The Pyramids is the ONLY must-have wonder.

Most of the time, depending on the leader, I'll play a specialist economy. It is suggested that in order to get past the lower levels such as noble, you should try playing without going for any wonders at all, because then you'll learn how to actually manage your economy. I agree, and some expert players have said that it is possible to get a wonder on Deity if you devote yourself to it, but not multiple wonders. I believe Pyramids is the only must-have wonder, unless you're actually a financial leader.

Jedoc
May 12, 2007, 03:48 PM
Boy, that takes me back. "The Useless Wonder" is what my football coach always called me in junior high.

For my money, you can't get much more useless than the Internet. I built it in a few of my early games out of some misplaced nostalgia for the Great Library, and I've never managed to get more than two techs out of it. Plus, I always suspect there's some hidden production penalty because half your citizens are wasting all their time in forums.

Thedrin
May 12, 2007, 04:18 PM
The Pyramids is the ONLY must-have wonder.

You don't have to run a specialist economy if you're not financial, a cottage economy will do fine. The award goes to either the Great Library or the Oracle.

Rusty Edge
May 12, 2007, 04:48 PM
:D What`s the worst wonders,you think? I just find most of the wonders in Civ4 is not worth building.:cry:
Most useless: Chichen Itza (+25% defense in all your cities
) :eek: I never build walls let along this......Wonder?
The Pyramid (Enables all government civics) :scan: You`re making me laughing for spend 450:hammers: in early for not gov civics(Dare you use some other civics instead of Hereditary in Early game? ). If, it enable Bureaucracy, Free Speech, Emancipation, State Property, Pacifism or Free Religion......The only useful is Representation - maybe it`s useful, but worth 450:hammers:?
The Kremlin(-33% hurry production cost ): :mad: HURRY PRODUCTION? If I have the money( Slavery? Crazy...... ), I`ll boost my tech researching.

Yeah, the Chicken Itch/Chicken Pizza is the most useless in my opinion.

The Pyramids do what they did in Civ I, allow you to change gov types to suit the circumstances before you've researched the nescessary techs. There it was considered a gamebreaker. I think it's one of the coolest wonders in history, IRL and in the various versions of Civilization. Granted, it's handier if you draw a leader like Brenus, so that it doesn't cost you any anarchy if you want to use Police State during a war, or switch to a cottage economy early for example.

The Great Wall? It's quite useful against the Black Ax Crush on a Huge, Marathon Plains map. I don't normally build it, but I do love the way it builds itself right off of the plans in the video.

The Kremlin is handy when you suffer a surpise attack and can't switch to slavery without some turns of anarchy to rush some wartime production.

I don't like slavery as a civic because I don't like slavery in history. The idea of whipping people to death because you lack patience is so disagreeable to me that it drains fun from the game. That probably makes The Pyramids and Kremlin more important to me.


Sometimes , though, I just build wonders to keep others from getting them.


Hagia Sophia at least gives Great Engineer points.


One I personally consider of little use is The Oracle because compared to a pair of scouts, it's an expensive way to get a tech in the early game.

Jerrymander
May 12, 2007, 04:53 PM
The Kremlin CAN be a powerful wonder. It comes in late, but so does UniSuf (I think that's the one that lets you spend the gold). Without Pyramids, of course. -33% is great, especially if you have a lot of low-production cities.

Defiant47
May 12, 2007, 05:08 PM
You don't have to run a specialist economy if you're not financial, a cottage economy will do fine. The award goes to either the Great Library or the Oracle.

...*cough*

...I believe Pyramids is the only must-have wonder, unless you're actually a financial leader.

mythmonster2
May 12, 2007, 05:11 PM
One I personally consider of little use is The Oracle because compared to a pair of scouts, it's an expensive way to get a tech in the early game.

O RLY? I always grab Theology or Feudalism with it, each at that point take about 27 and 45 turns respectively to research.

Jerrymander
May 12, 2007, 05:14 PM
I Oracle slingshotted Feudalism once. The Oracle is a powerful wonder.
Running around with Longbowmen vs Warriors is fun.
And Vassalage is a wonderful Civic. After two military instructors, you've got longbowmen with Drill 3 (or Drill 4 for Protective civs) coming out of a city. :D

Thedrin
May 12, 2007, 05:21 PM
You don't have to run a specialist economy if you're not financial, a cottage economy will do fine. The award goes to either the Great Library or the Oracle.

...*cough*

I believe Pyramids is the only must-have wonder, unless you're actually a financial leader.

I don't see what you're alluding to.

Rusty Edge
May 12, 2007, 05:36 PM
O RLY? I always grab Theology or Feudalism with it, each at that point take about 27 and 45 turns respectively to research.

I'm probably teching differently than you. For Feudalism? Go for it!

I usually think of it as I can't have everything, go for pyramids.




Oh, and Haga Sophia is handy for workers rebuilding stuff that's been pillaged,
especially if you have a vassal that's only pillages your enemy and settles in the culture gaps between conquered enemy cities.

Moon Pine
May 12, 2007, 10:15 PM
Hagia Sofia, right. I forgot this giantic fake^^
One I personally consider of little use is The Oracle because compared to a pair of scouts, it's an expensive way to get a tech in the early game.
......It`s most the best wonder, I think, 150:hammers:= 1 free tech + 2:gp:

Representation......Really worth 450:hammers:? And for :gp:, just one Engineer. Maybe, I built the Pyramid too early^^.

The Kremlin is handy when you suffer a surpise attack and can't switch to slavery without some turns of anarchy to rush some wartime production.

I prefer Nationhood -> Drafts.

KMadCandy
May 12, 2007, 10:31 PM
about the oracle...
......It`s most the best wonder, I think, 150:hammers:= 1 free tech + 2:gp:

Representation......Really worth 450:hammers:? And for :gp:, just one Engineer. Maybe, I built the Pyramid too early^^.

if you time it right, you can sometimes oracle to metalcasting, pronto chop a forge in a city that did NOT build the oracle, and run an engineer so that it will get a GE before oracleville gets its GP. if life is perfect and the RNG gods smile upon you, use the GE to build pyramids :lol:. ;)

Rusty Edge
May 12, 2007, 11:46 PM
about the oracle...


if you time it right, you can sometimes oracle to metalcasting, pronto chop a forge in a city that did NOT build the oracle, and run an engineer so that it will get a GE before oracleville gets its GP. if life is perfect and the RNG gods smile upon you, use the GE to build pyramids :lol:. ;)

Since lately I've been going the axeman and alphabet route climbing the tree and blowing with the wind on religion, I tend to think of The Oracle as "a chance at a tech" because the A.I might beat me to it. I forget that it's a choice of a tech if you get there first.

Like life, a lot is in the timing.

Oracle = Feudalism or The Pyramids is a "whole new ballgame"

Defiant47
May 13, 2007, 12:03 AM
I don't see what you're alluding to.

I'm alluding to the fact that I specifically said that Pyramids would not be a must-have wonder if you're using a financial leader (after which you said that it would not be a must-have wonder if you're using a financial leader).

My point was that almost always I'll be using a Specialist Economy, so more often than not, Pyramids is a must-have wonder.

Thedrin
May 13, 2007, 01:32 AM
You misread me.

I said "You don't have to run a specialist economy if you're not financial, a cottage economy will do fine."

DrewBledsoe
May 13, 2007, 03:00 AM
Agreed, huge maps/ many (8 or so plus) cities before wars, specialist economy just doesnt work..ok In circumstances yes, but I recently managed 20 cities on standard Monarch(with no cheat techniques) pre COL or Currency by pure cottage (and mega holy city admitted), with Persians.....

Moon Pine
May 13, 2007, 09:33 AM
if you time it right, you can sometimes oracle to metalcasting, pronto chop a forge in a city that did NOT build the oracle, and run an engineer so that it will get a GE before oracleville gets its GP. if life is perfect and the RNG gods smile upon you, use the GE to build pyramids .
:lol: I always oracle to metalcasting:D

Rusty Edge
May 13, 2007, 09:53 AM
:lol: I always oracle to metalcasting:D

If you get the Great Engineer, how do you use him? I'm guessing not to build the Pyramids.

Moon Pine
May 13, 2007, 10:08 AM
If you get the Great Engineer, how do you use him? I'm guessing not to build the Pyramids.
Just see which can be build first^^ Like Parthenon and Great Library.

Thedrin
May 13, 2007, 10:11 AM
If you're playing as the Chinease you should strongly consider using the engineer to pop machinery. Early cho-ko-nus can be devastating.

Jerrymander
May 13, 2007, 02:01 PM
Lacking Iron, your plan would fail. D:


But, I love Great Engineers. They're the best of the great people (+800 hammers, instantly!). I always build Pyramids, Great Wall, Hanging Gardens, Hagia Sophia, the Pentagon, West Point, and Ironworks in one city, especially if I'm Industrious.
6 Engineer Specialists (1 Forge, 2 Factory, 3 Ironworks) + Wonders = ~29 Raw GE points. (11 Wonders, 18 Specialists)
Therefore, the Hagia Sophia is not a useless wonder. It's much more useful than I originally though, as are the Hanging Gardens and the Pyramids.
I often use my GEs to build the awesome wonders, like Great Library or the Pentagon. (Or the Parthenon)

marioflag
May 13, 2007, 05:15 PM
Definitely Chichen Itza which is totally useless.
Hagia Sophia can have it's usefulness if you have a large empire or you have some newly conquered cities which are in urge to develop.
Kremlin is a specialized wonder but definitely a good one, not a case it was nerfed in patch 1.52 or 1.61.

Antilogic
May 13, 2007, 05:28 PM
I have to go against this thread on Hagia Sophia. I actually like to build this one...Great Engineers are hard to get because the forge only allows a single Engineer specialist. So, any wonders that boost that are a boon to me. I love getting one-turn wonders, or, later in the game, 4-5 turn wonders. It's a great use for your great people points.

But, at least the way I see it, Hagia Sophia gives you all the benefits of the Serfdom civic without actually having to run said civic. So, you can stay in slavery, and whip away your food production into something else, but still have your workers work faster. It has its uses...


I don't really have a "must-have" wonder--I build a few different ones every game, and conquer the rest. Keeps it interesting and varied.

Slobadog
May 13, 2007, 05:38 PM
I don't like slavery as a civic because I don't like slavery in history. The idea of whipping people to death because you lack patience is so disagreeable to me that it drains fun from the game. That probably makes The Pyramids and Kremlin more important to me.


Maybe they didn't die and instead got tired of the wipping and simply left to go live in the wild. Thats what i think to make myself feel slightly better when i use slavery.

Bushface
May 13, 2007, 06:05 PM
Chichen Itza is indeed pointless (is that why it has a flat top ?) but for really poor value I'd say The Internet is unparalleled. By the time you have Fibre Optics you're almost at the top of the tech tree, you'll already have all the earlier techs except, possibly, some you bypassed and don't want, and the chances of two AI civs having any of the top techs are vanishingly small - if indeed you have allowed two other civs to survive so far. Also, by that stage you can probably research any tech in less time than building the Net.

Hackapell
May 13, 2007, 06:18 PM
Weird that no one's metioned Angkor Wat! Horrible,horrible waste of hammers unless you're running a preist-heavy economy, but then something's REALLY wrong:mischief:

Put me in as another one for the pyramids. Planning to conquer the world? Police state. want to win culturally with a SE? Repesentation. Aiming for a space race with no production? US. Really, too overpowered IMHO. In the hands of someone like Asoka...:eek:

The Hagia Sophia is usful for two things: not running serfdom, or GE points. Other than that, Kinda useless.

And I believe you were preaching to the choir when you named Chichen Izta as most useless wonder. Duh!:p

ac196nataku
May 13, 2007, 06:19 PM
Fiber Optics is useful on high levels/isolated starts when you beeline to it (so I hear).

Chichen Itza is useless. I only built it once, and that was because I was stockpiling Great Prophet points. Of course, since that game, I've realize GP's are useless. I ended up settling most of them.

Moon Pine
May 14, 2007, 03:21 AM
If you're playing as the Chinease you should strongly consider using the engineer to pop machinery. Early cho-ko-nus can be devastating.
Korea -> Construction = Spear + Rocket Cart and......^^many captured cities

Angkor Wat, :( it`s not her useless but the Great Prophet in late game:(
:mad: If two or more Great Prophets can start a Golden Age, it still have a little use.

sabo
May 14, 2007, 10:10 AM
Has anyone mentioned the 'internet' yet? I mean a wonder that gives you a technology already known by two other civs at a time when you've already discovered 99.9% of the technology tree... All I have to say is... "Huh?"

GoodGame
May 14, 2007, 11:05 AM
Chichen Itza is quite good of you're warmongering rapidly, and not properly garrisoning.

The pyramids is not so hot if you only want Monarchy, but great for Representation if you want a Specialist economy, and pretty useful if you have the Spiritual trait.

Pyramids+Kremlin+spiritual+a lot of cash would be quite a good combo.
(Mali comes to mind).

Overall all, I tend not to build the cultural wonders like Sistine Chapel. The great wall strikes me as only useful in a barbarian-heavy game, or to stockpile in a Great Engineer wonder city. I tend to build the Great Library, but really it's a bit overvalued, and not as powerful as in Civ3.
I agree that the internet is usually worthless towards the end of Space Race, but it might be crucial in a late Modern conquest.

No wonder is absolutely bad. It's a matter that only a few wonders are good for every strategy, and most wonders are only good for a specific strategy.

:D What`s the worst wonders,you think? I just find most of the wonders in Civ4 is not worth building.:cry:
Most useless: Chichen Itza (+25% defense in all your cities
) :eek: I never build walls let along this......Wonder?
The Pyramid (Enables all government civics) :scan: You`re making me laughing for spend 450:hammers: in early for not gov civics(Dare you use some other civics instead of Hereditary in Early game? ). If, it enable Bureaucracy, Free Speech, Emancipation, State Property, Pacifism or Free Religion......The only useful is Representation - maybe it`s useful, but worth 450:hammers:?
The Kremlin(-33% hurry production cost ): :mad: HURRY PRODUCTION? If I have the money( Slavery? Crazy...... ), I`ll boost my tech researching.

Vizzini
May 14, 2007, 12:10 PM
I never build walls let along this......Wonder?Not having to defend against Barbarians == impossible to overestimate the advantage of that... because all the barbs will beeline the AIs instead of the player and I no longer have to defend my workers or tile improvements. The Great Engineer PP and Great General PP? Gravy.

Remember that Barbarian AI makes the player the primary target for Barbarians. They will walk right past an AI Civ to get to you. If you take yourself out of the equation the Barbs will instead maul the AI Civs tearing down improvements and even capturing/razing cities.

It's a "If I think I can get it I'll build it" Wonder, but definitely not in the useless category.

The Pyramid (Enables all government civics) :scan: You`re making me laughing for spend 450:hammers: in early for not gov civics(Dare you use some other civics instead of Hereditary in Early game? ). If, it enable Bureaucracy, Free Speech, Emancipation, State Property, Pacifism or Free Religion......The only useful is Representation - maybe it`s useful, but worth 450:hammers:?Definitely worth 450 (and especially if you have Stone) Early Hereditary or Representation + Great Engineer PP?? You damn skippy that's worth 450 hammers.

Rusty Edge
May 14, 2007, 12:21 PM
Has anyone mentioned the 'internet' yet? I mean a wonder that gives you a technology already known by two other civs at a time when you've already discovered 99.9% of the technology tree... All I have to say is... "Huh?"

Agreed, although the Al Gore icon is hilarious.

Rusty Edge
May 14, 2007, 12:35 PM
Maybe they didn't die and instead got tired of the wipping and simply left to go live in the wild. Thats what i think to make myself feel slightly better when i use slavery.

Thanks. I wonder what the game would be like if

the neighboring civs got a free settler for every 2 pop whipped away..

Wlauzon
May 17, 2007, 10:05 PM
Has anyone mentioned the 'internet' yet? I mean a wonder that gives you a technology already known by two other civs at a time when you've already discovered 99.9% of the technology tree... All I have to say is... "Huh?"

That is by far the most useless of all, you don't even get any culture or any other bonuses with it.

gettingfat
May 17, 2007, 10:23 PM
Pyramid a useless wonder????

Put it this way. With stone it takes you 225 hammers to build it.

You switch to early police state, it'll save 25% hammers building military units. So it's roughly equivalent to 1 free unit for every 3 units you build.

225 hammers are roughly equivalent to a bit more than 3 macemen. So basically you build 13-14 macemen and you'll get your hammers spent back. This is about what you need in only one small-scale war. Certainly you can take out a couple more neighbours if you wish with the increased production.

And the free great engineer is worth more than 450 hammers.

Not to mention how many free beakers you can get from early representation during peace time.

The only problem of pyramid is in early stage, building one without stone will certainly slow down your military production. With an aggressive neighbour you'll 80% be hammered if you are too fixated with that.

Moon Pine
May 17, 2007, 10:40 PM
the Free Great Engineer? You mean when it finished, I can get a free GE :wow: I`ll try the Pyramid:lol: Right, the City more likely to generate GE in early time is the most useful for the Pyramid:D

DrewBledsoe
May 17, 2007, 11:02 PM
Pyramid a useless wonder????

Put it this way. With stone it takes you 225 hammers to build it.

You switch to early police state, it'll save 25% hammers building military units. So it's roughly equivalent to 1 free unit for every 3 units you build.

225 hammers are roughly equivalent to a bit more than 3 macemen. So basically you build 13-14 macemen and you'll get your hammers spent back. This is about what you need in only one small-scale war. Certainly you can take out a couple more neighbours if you wish with the increased production.

And the free great engineer is worth more than 450 hammers.

Not to mention how many free beakers you can get from early representation during peace time.

The only problem of pyramid is in early stage, building one without stone will certainly slow down your military production. With an aggressive neighbour you'll 80% be hammered if you are too fixated with that.

Thats quite a cunning plan :)

I never thought of using Pyramids plus Police State as a "buy now get your money back later" in terms of troop cost saved...I like that idea...

But as I tend to come out in a violent rash when trying to run anything approaching a specialist economy (terrible allergy you see), I can't remember building the Pyramids in a long time. Maybe I'll give your idea a try ;)

Hold The Onion
May 18, 2007, 12:50 AM
I hate when my neighbor builds Chichen Itza. I target that city first for capture. I never build it, but like to capture it for front line defense in cities. Who wants to bring extra units to garrison? Chichen gives enough bonus that my healing units that stayed behind can hold the city til the front line become my next captured city.

Pyramids are nice to have if you can get em, but if you're pressed for space early axemen are a much better investment.

I've never built the internet. I don't even know what the video is like for it. If I've gotten that far, I'm winning the space race. The AI never has the management skills or the production to actually get the ship together in time even if they are slightly ahead. And if they do beat me to space, I haven't made it to fiber optics yet (or probably have quit). Besides, don't we all delay Fiber Optics so it doesn't obsolete the Kremlin?:lol:

All the wonders are nice to have in some situations, but none of them are "must haves". Play a couple of games and don't allow yourself to build any of them (yes even the Great Library you cookie-cutter Liberalism chasers) and you'll see that you can live without them.

Can we include national wonders here? I guess it's not "useless", but how often does anyone build the Hermitage?

nikosison
May 18, 2007, 02:42 AM
I love the great wall!! In my Genghis Khan game I saw that in the after game replay, I saw that every AI civ on my continent lost a city to those barbs. This later allowed me to steam roll Mao, Wan Kon (Both protective) and Mehemed with a stack of ten Keshiks. I did meet the odd CGIII archer in mao and Wan kon but they fell to my Combat V Flanking II Keshiks :lol:

gettingfat
May 18, 2007, 02:59 AM
Thats quite a cunning plan :)

I never thought of using Pyramids plus Police State as a "buy now get your money back later" in terms of troop cost saved...I like that idea...

But as I tend to come out in a violent rash when trying to run anything approaching a specialist economy (terrible allergy you see), I can't remember building the Pyramids in a long time. Maybe I'll give your idea a try ;)

If you play a spiritual leader you may use it to max effect. Ramesses is one of the leaders that you can pull this trick really well. Most of the time I play him and see stone nearby I'll pull this trick. With industrious trait and stone the pyramid costs essentially 180 hammers. Chop the pyramid ASAP. Then switch to police state and quickly backfill my army with war chariots and I can start rushing any neighbours without copper. After getting more room to manuever then I will switch back to representation and be a builder for a while. The GE produced from the Pyramid may be used for GL or lightbulbing metalcast for cheap forges depending on the need. It's a fun plan.

But I won't do it without stone. And if I play philosophy leader representation (so specialist economy) is still the way to go.

rabidveggie
May 18, 2007, 09:12 AM
I've built the Internet once and it was so my friends couldn't build it in a hotseat game and possibly catch me in space race. The Chichen Itza, Angor Wat, and Sistine Chapel seem mighty useless from my point of view. Built each of them maybe once when I first played the game. The Oracle, Pyramids, Pentagon, and Great Library are the best wonders in my books.

r_rolo1
May 18, 2007, 09:22 AM
Sistine Chapel is a must for a Cultural win.Besides that... I agree , is almost useless.
Angor Wat has its uses, but.... nah
Chichen Itza.... what?

About the others:

Oracle - Is a great wonder, but has a too much powerful addictive aspect: " Oracle must build ... Oracle must build ..." . It can kill you if you're near Alex or Monty

Pyramids - Great wonder , but a costly one. See Oracle.

Great Library - A must, if you can get it.

Pentagon - It's good to have some more XPs per unit, but maybe it would be better to spend those :hammers: in units, methinks...

rabidveggie
May 18, 2007, 09:51 AM
I agree that the Oracle can get you killed due to its addictive nature and proximity to the Pyramids. I've lost matches due to that stupidity. As for the Sistine Chapel I'm sorry but Culture victories just take soooo long to complete and most other victories will come before it. I don't normally adopt vassalage or theocracy (although I should) so the Pentagon is very useful for me.

amaterasu
May 18, 2007, 09:58 AM
For the sistine chapel with mercantilism it can be really useful for boarder dispuetes and the like.

Also the prymids own as said, the orcale is awsome when used properly( dont get fishing from it ffs...)

GL is so useful, epecially with the prymids.

As for the pentagon, when I have a good hammer city or spare GE perhaps, the extra promos are always good.

Chemtech
May 18, 2007, 10:27 AM
Agree w/all on Chicken Pizza - never built it.

I usually try for Oracle but only go Pyramids if I have stone and am isolated - if I have neighbors I'm usually cranking units with the 3 cities I have at that point and trying to put a hurting on everyone near by.

I usually build Pentagon if my game reaches that point (ie. I havent given up yet) but its usually more of a defensive build than out of any real need for the xtra xp -it certainly helps but it's more to keep it out of the AI's hands than anything.

Vizzini
May 18, 2007, 11:29 AM
That is by far the most useless of all, you don't even get any culture or any other bonuses with it.Except for the fact that you can turn off your research slider at that point. In my last game I was going for a Domination victory and it was taking a long time (isolated start, lots of island continents, strong AI, and lots of 'em) Anyway, building the Internet meant I could turn off the research slider completely and still get the Future Techs the rest of the AI were researching. Kinda handy. Granted not much of one but...

gettingfat
May 18, 2007, 03:26 PM
Agree w/all on Chicken Pizza - never built it.


I said if you have stone and is playing an industrious leader, build it till 1 turn left, then wait for the inevitable cash. The best way to get your research or war fund.

Antilogic
May 19, 2007, 02:03 AM
I forgot the Internet was even a wonder in the game, or I would have slammed it!

I could see the value in building the Internet, and then dropping your research to zero and buying military units every turn, though... (and using the free techs to stay caught-up)... Could that work? I might have to try it.

ElGrillo
May 19, 2007, 02:17 AM
Many times found useless Internet (always), Artemis, Hagia Sophia, Manhattan Project and some others like Hermitage, Taj Mahal, Kremlin, mainly due to game strategy used and game conditions.

Many times found Parthenon useful and the Spiral Minaret vital for my economy.

Also, many time I had the luck to concentrate Pyramids, Great Walls, Hagia Sophia in the same city and it started to pump out GE like it rained.

Antilogic
May 19, 2007, 02:24 AM
I'm banking against you on Hagia Sophia--I've found it a nice build on occassion, but I wouldn't do it every game. Taj Mahal is great--a free Golden Age. If you have already had one or two, then it's a great alternative to the truly prodigious number of great people you need to start another. I don't always build the Hermitage because I tend to forget about it and favor troops.

BYC
May 19, 2007, 03:43 AM
Kremlin is definitely not the worse. Remember, it was too good in the past, as it got a major nerf from 50% to 33%.

Chicken Pizza is pretty horrible, and Hagia isn't much better.

I would say honorable mention goes to Temple of Artemis. It's really expensive, it's only really great on a coast city, and the benefits aren't mind blowing.

Another horrible one is the Space Elevator. I can't recall it ever being useful as my high production cities can crank out spaceship parts really fast.

rcoutme
May 19, 2007, 04:48 AM
Weird that no one's metioned Angkor Wat! Horrible,horrible waste of hammers unless you're running a preist-heavy economy, but then something's REALLY wrong:mischief:


I have to disagree with this thinking. If you have temples and/or holy cities a priest-heavy city can be awesome.
1. You make the holy city building for enormous quantities of cash.
2. You get cash and hammers from priests. If you have the AW, those priests produce as much as an engineer-with the extra cash as bonus!
3. You can use extra GP's in cities that are low in hammers; this can easily double a city that has poor production.
4. You can use GP's for a Golden Age (1/2 of it for the first; although I rarely do this).
5. Those temples (and later, possibly, cathedrals) can give you beakers if you produce the Sankore wonder. They can also provide direct cash with the Spiral Minaret.
6. If you have Representation, those priests (and prophets) add 3 beakers to your research--along with the hammers and cash.

Moon Pine
May 19, 2007, 07:32 AM
I have to disagree with this thinking. If you have temples and/or holy cities a priest-heavy city can be awesome.
1. You make the holy city building for enormous quantities of cash.
2. You get cash and hammers from priests. If you have the AW, those priests produce as much as an engineer-with the extra cash as bonus!
3. You can use extra GP's in cities that are low in hammers; this can easily double a city that has poor production.
4. You can use GP's for a Golden Age (1/2 of it for the first; although I rarely do this).
5. Those temples (and later, possibly, cathedrals) can give you beakers if you produce the Sankore wonder. They can also provide direct cash with the Spiral Minaret.
6. If you have Representation, those priests (and prophets) add 3 beakers to your research--along with the hammers and cash.

You will get a great many of useless Great Prophets in that way and you can`t start a Golden Age with two same Great People.

ElGrillo
May 19, 2007, 09:10 AM
Anyway I always tend to build the Hagia Sophia, but many times it goes obsolete too quicky. But when I point on particular directions with research it can be useful. The oracle is one i forgot to mention. Depending on the resources in my hands it can be vital to have a boost. Same as Stonehenge, because in the first stages it's better to expand soon as possible all the cities in case a resouce appears right out of the borders: many times it saved me from settling too far from the capital

gettingfat
May 19, 2007, 04:18 PM
You will get a great many of useless Great Prophets in that way and you can`t start a Golden Age with two same Great People.

It shows that you don't run a specialist farm. It doesn't matter you use two priest specialists in every city, as long as you have a specialist farm with National Epic and Oxford devoted to running scientist specialists (like 3-4 scientists), you'll get GS much more often than GP.

AW can be very useful if one decides to run a religion-based specialist economy. First, if you have holy cities (particularly a multiple religion holy city) but do not have the shrines yet (happens a lot because we often intentionally farm GS or GE as our first few great people), one can temporarily turn off the specialist farm and rely on the city with AW to quickly rush out the needed GP to build the shrines (therefore the city with AW must have enough food to take advantage of the 3 priest specialist slots). Then you build the Wall Street there to take advantage of the church money (like how those TV missionaries use the donation /lol )

Second, if you have a lot of grassland cities it gives you the much needed production as if using engineering specialists, only with higher research. Combined with Spiral Minaret and U Sangoke one can easily dominate the pre-modern era.

But AW is useless if you don't really play to exploit it. So it depends on your game style.

Oh, did somebody just mention Space elevator is useless? OMG.

Thedrin
May 19, 2007, 04:21 PM
But AW is useless if you really play to exploit it. So it depends on your game style.

That's the difference between Chichen Itza and Angkor Wat. Angor Wat can be exploited to provide massive bonuses. Chichen Itza can't.

DrewBledsoe
May 19, 2007, 05:16 PM
It shows that you don't run a specialist farm. It doesn't matter you use two priest specialists in every city, as long as you have a specialist farm with National Epic and Oxford devoted to running scientist specialists (like 3-4 scientists), you'll get GS much more often than GP.


Sorry to pick on this bit (and well off topic), but that isn't really the best way to make a GP factory. Oxford city should be you're top science city (i.e. cottages and nothing but). The best GP farm should be one with a couple of food sources and then nothing but grassland that can all be chain / irrigated. A chunk of jungle is often a great bet.

This kind of city can often support 15 or more specialists post biology. It doesn't need wonders apart from Nat Epic (and maybe Globe). Having your GP farm in a city that can't support a least 10 specialists is a waste.

Capt Buttkick
May 19, 2007, 05:38 PM
Depending on map, difficulty and VC you're going for, Oracle can be anything from a preempt so that the AI doesn't race too far ahead (usually waste of hammers imhso, build troops instead) to a very late tech surge. In a recent Chieftain game for the HoF, I got EDU with the Oracle. Going for Diplo on Settler, you should be able to get Electricity or Radio with the Oracle :science:
Has to be my fav and most-built wonder.

I agree with AW being very narrowly suited to a particular strategy, but I think it adds a lot to the game by making that strategy an interesting one.
Settle a GPP and you get 2 hammers and 5 gold, right? You can easily get to 3 hammers and 15 gold in a specialized shrine city (even without IW or civ-specific buildings).

I think the reason that the pyramids are so popular, is that they can fit any strategy and any VC. You'll get the hammers back in most cases. If you can only survive long enough... [pimp]

Every wonder fits a strat, imhso. And that is part of what makes Civ4 such a great game.

The ones I rarely build are:
Hagia, would build if I only had slow units and had a lot of road work to do on a huge map.
Chicken, would build if I were severly pressed by Genghis or Monty on a high difficulty level and needed to defend while rebuilding.
Internet, obviously more useful on modern starts.
Sistine, except for kulcher games, which I guess is around 1/30 of the games I've played so far...
Stonehenge, because I only very rarely have enough cities to warrant the hammer investment before I grab Calendar.

Somone mentioned the extra person from the HG was np, even if it was unhappy. If it's unhappy, whip it! You may have to pay extra civic upkeep for that whiner.

Bad Brett
May 19, 2007, 05:40 PM
Before the patch I used to do the following when possible:

1. Build The Great Wall. (+2:gp: Great Engineer)
2. Build The Oracle in another city (+2:gp: Great Prophet)
3. Go for Theology
4. Get a Free Engineer.
5. Hurry The Pyramids. (+2:gp: Great Engineer)
6. Adopt Representation
7. Go for Alphabet
8. Trade Theology for lots of techs
9. Get a Free Engineer
10. If possible, Hurry The Parthenon (+2:gp: Great Artist)
11. Build The Hanging Gardens (+2:gp: Great Engineer)
12. Build The Sistine Chapel (+2:gp:Great Artist)

By doing this, I used to get tons of Great Engineers and Great Artists, my two favourite Great People.

This doesn't work as well after the patch. I guess this was the reason why they modified The Great Wall.

Anyway, the most useless wonders must be Kremlin, Hagia Sofia, Citzin Itca and I'm not a huge fan of Artemis either.

Loge
May 20, 2007, 02:00 AM
I gotta give some love to Versailles. Insanely expensive, requires Divine Right (most useless advance), and almost impossible to beat the AI to it (whatever, let 'em have it). Versailles is most useful in newly conquered territory, but those cities usually have other priorities like defense or culture. Maybe if you have a GE sitting around with nothing better to do.

Otoh, arriving on a new continent and discovering your target has already built it...

Capt Buttkick
May 20, 2007, 05:08 AM
I knew there was something wrong about what I wrote on the AW: if you settle GPPs, they have 3 hammers as a base, with forge, factory and power, each GPP will give you 5 hammers (!).

Problem is: how long can you stay away from computers?
...just one more turn...

r_rolo1
May 20, 2007, 05:18 AM
I knew there was something wrong about what I wrote on the AW: if you settle GPPs, they have 3 hammers as a base, with forge, factory and power, each GPP will give you 5 hammers (!).

Problem is: how long can you stay away from computers?
...just one more turn...

Conquer/Dominate the world before that... With all those :hammers: from the priest-specialists and settled GProphets, it shouldn't be hard do adquire enough units for a full scale world war in the late rennaicense/early industrial
( tried once with Japan... Samurai-> Agg/Pro Grenadiers... nice game)

Thedrin
May 20, 2007, 06:05 AM
Settled great prophets - even settled great prophets in the civ with Angkor Wat - only provide 2 hammers.

Capt Buttkick
May 20, 2007, 10:33 AM
Settled great prophets - even settled great prophets in the civ with Angkor Wat - only provide 2 hammers.

Thanks, didn't know that. Guess that shows how much I use it myself :hammer2:

Jerrymander
May 20, 2007, 01:56 PM
I'm modifying Chichen Itza in my upcoming mod:
650 Hammers
+3 Culture, +1 GE point
+1 Experience for ALL units
+2 Experience for units created in this city.

D: Probably gonna modify the Angkor Wat and Hagia Sophia, too.

gettingfat
May 20, 2007, 03:53 PM
I gotta give some love to Versailles. Insanely expensive, requires Divine Right (most useless advance), and almost impossible to beat the AI to it (whatever, let 'em have it). Versailles is most useful in newly conquered territory, but those cities usually have other priorities like defense or culture. Maybe if you have a GE sitting around with nothing better to do.

Otoh, arriving on a new continent and discovering your target has already built it...

I agree. The reason you need Versailles is because either you have such a big empire or occupying three continents so Forbidden Palace alone is not enough. By that time communism is coming and one can go for state economy anyway. I'll let an AI build it and I'll use the saved hammers to take this AI down.

jeejeep
May 20, 2007, 04:05 PM
I'd say the worst are:

1. Angkor Wat: I don't usually play a religious-style game, so I hate to see great prophets. Only useful for an extremely religious game.

2. Chichen Itza: Yeah. The worst part about both of these two is the great prophet points messing up the GP pool.

3. Hagia Sophia: Pretty much useless, but GE points.

4. Sistine Chapel: Mostly just useful for culture victory, but could be good to repel cultural pressure.

I probably forgot a few that I hate. Are there any really bad modern ones?

gettingfat
May 20, 2007, 04:23 PM
Sorry to pick on this bit (and well off topic), but that isn't really the best way to make a GP factory. Oxford city should be you're top science city (i.e. cottages and nothing but). The best GP farm should be one with a couple of food sources and then nothing but grassland that can all be chain / irrigated. A chunk of jungle is often a great bet.

This kind of city can often support 15 or more specialists post biology. It doesn't need wonders apart from Nat Epic (and maybe Globe). Having your GP farm in a city that can't support a least 10 specialists is a waste.

I know, but sometimes I do that because I care more about the mid-game rather than post-biology game, and I don't use Caste system too often. So I'd rather have a food-rich city having NE + oxford + GL + 3-4 scientist specialists to generate the GS I need. Certainly that may be a bit short-sighted, but it helps my liberalism rush quite well.

gettingfat
May 20, 2007, 04:35 PM
The ones I rarely build are:
Hagia, would build if I only had slow units and had a lot of road work to do on a huge map.
Chicken, would build if I were severly pressed by Genghis or Monty on a high difficulty level and needed to defend while rebuilding.
Internet, obviously more useful on modern starts.
Sistine, except for kulcher games, which I guess is around 1/30 of the games I've played so far...
Stonehenge, because I only very rarely have enough cities to warrant the hammer investment before I grab Calendar.


Hagia is useful when you've got too much jungles to clear and is also a bit warlike. But it's generally not that useful

Sistine is quite helpful if your goal is cultural win.

Stonehenge costs 120 hammers. If you are industrious it effectively costs 90 hammers, if you have stone it's 60 hammers, and if you are both industrious and have stone it cost 48 hammers. So for industrious leaders you'll almost always get back what you invested, and if you have stone it's a great investment. And if you go for cultural win a lot, you'll find it almost a must. Because you can get it so early, its already high culture point production will doubles very soon. The great priest generated will help you found a religion (I'll pick Theology so I can build sistine to go for cultural win. People may also forget how hot a commodity Theology is in the eyes of AIs) early. If you don't have a lot of Calender resources I'll even delay its discovery a bit. Stonehenge is a very useful wonder for non-creative leaders IMHO.

jerVL/kg
May 20, 2007, 05:44 PM
Seems like this topic comes up every month or so...

Chicken Pizza is the most useless wonder, bar none. Whenever the AI builds it I make a point to crush that civilization to dust, saving the CI city until last...just to drive home the point. :lol:

Angkor Wat can be useful if you have lots of religions and build temples everywhere -- the downside is that you'll tend to spam Great Prophets like crazy, the worst of all GPs.

Hagia Sophia? Two words = Great. Engineer. Points. (oops that's 3 words) Build it in the same city with Forge/Pyramids/Hanging Gardens/Pentagon and you'll have a steady stream of Great Engineers for the whole game.

Speaking of Hanging Gardens, that's one of the most underrated wonders IMO. The extra pop boost is nice (and you don't get it if you capture the wonder) and who cares if the cities grow into unhappiness, just whip away the excess population, free hammers!!

Stonehenge...the problem is those obelisks disappear after the wonder goes obsolete, whereas Obelisks you build yourself remain forever and continue to produce +1 (eventually +2) culture. Important to remember if you're going for a culture victory. Speaking of culture victory, Sistine Chapel is widely considered essential for it, but I've found that you can often do without it. However, Sistine + Mercantilism has great synergy, your newly founded cities will pop borders quickly with +2 culture from a free citizen specialist. So it does have its uses.

Who the heck said Pyramids are a useless wonder????????

And I too suffer from Oracle Addiction...though I've yet to have a game where building the Oracle turned out to be a bad idea...

Antilogic
May 21, 2007, 01:15 AM
And I too suffer from Oracle Addiction...though I've yet to have a game where building the Oracle turned out to be a bad idea...

The thing is, to build the Oracle (and guarantee you get it), you have to go for Priesthood relatively early. I sometimes put off all the religious techs and wait until somebody spreads a religion to me before trading for them. I'll get Writing, Alphabet, and Iron Working earlier, and only have Mysticism on the religious tree. It's a different way of playing the game, and I'll do that simply to mix it up--I get bored if I research the same techs in the same order every game.

r_rolo1
May 21, 2007, 06:45 AM
And I too suffer from Oracle Addiction...though I've yet to have a game where building the Oracle turned out to be a bad idea...

I had one ... Vicky, Nice capitol site, worker, warrior, settler. Research to BW and found second city near cooper. Found Alex nearby while researching to Priesthood. Started Oracle while mining cooper. Alex got third settler and find that only site with cooper in the sorroudings is in my city radius. Alex declares war and attacks my cooper city with the two archers from the settler escort my city with one warrior ... and after that my capital. I've tried in despair to research AH ( I hadn't cows or other AH resourses so i had let it to second plan) and pull Chariots, but there aren't any nearby horses.... in a absolute :smoke: and no hope move, whipped warriors. No hold. Game over very quickly [pissed] . I believe that if I hadn't gone to Oracle I may had not passed by this provation ( more workers, maybe)...

Well, lesson learned ;) . With nearby Alex, forget Oracle and Axerush with no mercy... :lol:

sylvanllewelyn
May 21, 2007, 08:40 AM
I used to think Angkor Wat is a poor wonder because the hammer return is so small. But now I'm thinking it may be better than I thought, because philosophy is a tech that human players like getting early (liberalism rush), and computers is a very late-game tech. So you a wonder that can last from 500BC to 1750AD, if you work around it with a spiritual civ. Plus, it becomes incredibly powerful with statue of liberty, allowing you to buy a temple and then build the rest of the basic infrastructure with +2 hammers a turn, which is to say, a lot.