I'm not sure if this has been posted before (I didn't see any threads) but some new info is included (Including the leader for Portugal, Joao II, who is Imperialistic and Expansionist) New screens included!

http://pc.ign.com/articles/788/788749p1.html

Thank You Wooly!!

Anyone have an idea of whom that guy (2nd pic in Wooly's post) is? Either a second Incan/Aztec leader or a Mayan leader? I am trying to find out what ancient city is in the background of the pic for a clue.

awesome find :goodjob:

bts gets my vote for best expansion ever

corporation and spy seems to be pretty cool. I don't really care about new civ and new leaders. I have played so far, maybe 4 different civs, they are all about the same anyways.

I'm putting my money on that dude being Maya, we've got 10 new civs so we can safely assume one of those will be Maya

Are those new units in the screenshots from bts or warlords? (the howitzer, dude dragin a cart, lancer, teutonic knight)

I'm putting my money on that dude being Maya, we've got 10 new civs so we can safely assume one of those will be Maya

Yeah I am starting to think so as well. The background kind of resembles Tikal too.

http://www.mexconnect.com/mex_/travel/ldumois/maya/maya3.html


Also, the Native American archers are going to be tough.
Protective = 1 free first strike upgrade and 1 city defender upgrade.
Barracks = 3/5 experience for 2nd first strike/city defender upgrade
Totem Pole = only needs 2 experience (which seems reasonable) for 3rd upgrade.

The blue feathers on his head are reminiscent of Capac. Although his behaviour is reminiscent of Monty.

"Also, the Native American archers are going to be tough.
Protective = 1 free first strike upgrade and 1 city defender upgrade.
Barracks = 3/5 experience for 2nd first strike/city defender upgrade
Totem Pole = only needs 2 experience (which seems reasonable) for 3rd upgrade."

Wouldn't they be much tougher if they had protective three? Ie +60% to city defense??

They nerfed Cavalry! (sort of)
For instance, the Cuirassier is a new mounted unit that takes the place of the old Cavalry unit in the technology tree. We pushed Cavalry back to require rifling, thus extending the age of the musket and making the beeline to Military tradition less of a dominant strategy.

And old-Civ style spaceships!
The space race is now more suspenseful because victory is not achieved until the spaceship actually arrives, not when it's launched. Therefore, you may pull out a victory even if you launch late, by building a faster spaceship and overtaking your opponent on the way to Alpha Centauri.

...although I wonder if you can force the ship back like you used to be able to do?

Great article! Tons of details info. I am trying to do a summary for the news post but it's kinda hard because so much of the info are new. :D

Nice find thanks :).....from the article:- However, in general, we added units to fill needed roles, rather then adding exotic units and trying to dream up roles for them. For instance, the Cuirassier is a new mounted unit that takes the place of the old Cavalry unit in the technology tree. We pushed Cavalry back to require rifling, thus extending the age of the musket and making the beeline to Military tradition less of a dominant strategy

I could quote half a dozen various posts where I suggested doing this, and actually pushed back Cavalry after Rifling myself a while back...but I won't I'll just gloat instead ;)

Nice find thanks :).....from the article:-

I could quote half a dozen various posts where I suggested doing this, and actually pushed back Cavalry after Rifling myself a while back...but I won't I'll just gloat instead ;)


Great idea! Napoleanic heavy cavalry. Congratulations.

They gave Portugal a naval UU (Carrack)?! I didn't think they would do something like that. Hopefully naval units in general will be made more useful in BtS.

They gave Portugal a naval UU (Carrack)?! I didn't think they would do something like that. Hopefully naval units in general will be made more useful in BtS.
Not really surprising. :) They had the carrack as their UU in Civ3 (http://www.civfanatics.com/civ3/civilizations/portuguese.php) too.

Holy cow, is that first pic really one of the scenarios, with Civ4 in space? That looks like it's from a completely different game.

Not really surprising. :) They had the carrack as their UU in Civ3 (http://www.civfanatics.com/civ3/civilizations/portuguese.php) too.

The English had the Man O War and the Americans had the F-15 in Civ3. These units were replaced with land units in Civ4. I thought that they would try to eliminate naval/air UU's completely in civ4, and I am surprised they added in the Carrack now.

Hopefully they majorly boost the Carracks effects.

One of the scenarios looks like a holy grail one

Also, notice how none of the pics show any roads/railroads. Interesting

Looks awesome. I'm looking forward to trying the Civ in Space scenario.

Any guesses as to how long it'll take spaceships to reach Alpha Centauri? According to Wikipedia it's 4.37 light-years away, so that could take quite a few years by spaceship.

Holy cow, is that first pic really one of the scenarios, with Civ4 in space? That looks like it's from a completely different game.
Its not a scenario, its the new space race victory screen ... by the looks of it the ships spiral in towards the the earth like planet near the center and which ever one get there first wins. The wreaked space ship over at the side makes me wonder if they can somehow attack each other? and the circling planets make me wonder if you need to avoid colisions with them?

I hope they include the option to do the space race without it winning/ending the game.

Hopefully they majorly boost the Carracks effects.

Makes you wonder what "special" it will have...can't be like in Civ III (ocean travel with optics instead of Astronomy), that would be far, far too powerful..Plus one mvt pt would make it exactly like a latter day viking boat, so I doubt that too...dunno any ideas anyone?

I really like the change-up with Cavalry, that was probably the closest thing to a "one right strategy" when it came to pre-rifles warfare, beeline military tradition and blitz your enemies before they got rifles.

I wonder if many of the "forbidden traits" are going to be available now... That and what a Great Spy would be able to do...

Makes you wonder what "special" it will have...can't be like in Civ III (ocean travel with optics instead of Astronomy), that would be far, far too powerful..

Maybe a caravel that can carry workers and settlers?

I'm not really convinced that even a caravel that can carry all units would be overpowered. Why do you say that?

The other benefit carracks had in Civ3 was they could be both a military and transport ship (2 attack, 2 defense compared to 2-2 for frigate (mil) and 1-2 for caravel (trans)). So maybe they'll have a combat value high enough to defeat galleons but still low enough they can be sunk by frigates.

Or what DaviddesJ said. We'll find out. For that matter, we aren't even sure if it's replacing caravel or galleon. It replaced caravel in Civ3, but that doesn't necessarily mean it also will in Civ4.

Its not a scenario, its the new space race victory screen ... by the looks of it the ships spiral in towards the the earth like planet near the center and which ever one get there first wins. The wreaked space ship over at the side makes me wonder if they can somehow attack each other? and the circling planets make me wonder if you need to avoid colisions with them?

I hope they include the option to do the space race without it winning/ending the game.
I think it's a scenario. Look at the structure at the left... it looks like a space station ("city").

Alex did say the look of the game has been completely transformed for some of the scenarios, and that one of the scenarios is Civ in space. :)

Its not a scenario, its the new space race victory screen ... by the looks of it the ships spiral in towards the the earth like planet near the center and which ever one get there first wins. The wreaked space ship over at the side makes me wonder if they can somehow attack each other? and the circling planets make me wonder if you need to avoid colisions with them?

I hope they include the option to do the space race without it winning/ending the game.

In CivI a ship had a estimated arrival and a % chance of success, depending on the number of components of varios types ( more engines &fuel meant a faster trip, more life support , a better chance of success). You didn't always make it on your ffirst attempt.

I think it's a scenario. Look at the structure at the left... it looks like a space station ("city").
I thought it looked more like a wreaked space ship.

Caravel that can carry workers and settlers?

I'm not really convinced that even a caravel that can carry all units would be overpowered. Why do you say that?

For various reasons discussed in the "does it erk you that tiremes and galleys can't enter oceans" thread, plus the fact that if you're a marathon player, then Astronomy is often a huge research compared to Optics...often 35-40 turns or so. On watery maps with a lot of open land, if the Portuguese can go settle with optics and carracks, then thats a massive advantage.
And even on normal game speed, its almost the equiv of giving them a free tech, PLUS they are imperial / expans trait, so those settlers come very cheap at that time , as do the workers to go with them.

Edit: I like Quintillus's thought of making them a combo transport / attack shiip and replacing the galleon..anyways we'l have to wait and see

Hopefully they majorly boost the Carracks effects.

Depends what it swaps for and what abilities it gets. Think of the advantages of a oceangoing troop ship instead of a caravel @Optics..

Yeah, it wouldn't be much use on a pangea map, but then an early UU like chariots/immortals isn't much use on an archipelago map either.

For various reasons discussed in the "does it erk you that tiremes and galleys can't enter oceans" thread

Huh. I can see why galleys crossing oceans, as in Civ3, would be a problem. But this seems completely different. And a caravel that can carry settlers, or even military units, is still vastly inferior to a [EDIT] galleon. My experience with Civ4 is that the ability to build new cities overseas, as late as Optics, is just not worth all that much. Just as easy, and more valuable, to go conquer some cities.

My experience with Civ4 is that the ability to build new cities overseas, as late as Optics, is just not worth all that much. Just as easy, and more valuable, to go conquer some cities.
I agree, its easier and more worthwhile conquering a nearby civ than spending 30turns sailing around the world to settle some island just for corn & cows.

I agree, its easier and more worthwhile conquering a nearby civ than spending 30turns sailing around the world to settle some island just for corn & cows.

Hmm, again depends upon map...the last game I played (random huge map) it gave a huge amount of splintered islands. More than 50% of the world land surface was "virgin" unsettled land before Astronomy, but yes this was quite unusual. Though often some of my better cities have been founded post Astronomy. I suppose there's more room on huge maps.

......And a caravel that can carry settlers, or even military units, is still vastly inferior to a galley.

How??

For various reasons discussed in the "does it erk you that tiremes and galleys can't enter oceans" thread, plus the fact that if you're a marathon player, then Astronomy is often a huge research compared to Optics...often 35-40 turns or so. On watery maps with a lot of open land, if the Portuguese can go settle with optics and carracks, then thats a massive advantage.
And even on normal game speed, its almost the equiv of giving them a free tech, PLUS they are imperial / expans trait, so those settlers come very cheap at that time , as do the workers to go with them.

Edit: I like Quintillus's thought of making them a combo transport / attack shiip and replacing the galleon..anyways we'l have to wait and see

Maybe they'll do something different and simple , like allow them to travel a certain number of squares from the coast- seas without seas if you will. That would aid "expansion and colonization" without granting circumnavvigation on a Terra map.

And a caravel that can carry settlers, or even military units, is still vastly inferior to a galley.

How??

Let's see. 33% of the transport capacity. 75% of the speed. 75% of the combat strength. How is it not inferior?

Hey kids,

It's Steve from IGN. I meant to send out a heads up about the interview before we posted it but I'm traveling this week and my web access has been spotty. I would have asked Charles to do it but he's from Canada so he's a little slow, eh? Anyway, I just wanted to point out that the leader in the screenshot is Pacal of the Maya.

Love the Simpsons reference, mrbee. Thanks for the chime-in.

Let's see. 33% of the transport capacity. 75% of the speed. 75% of the combat strength. How is it not inferior?

Again what are you talking about? Do you mean a galleon as compared to a caravel..because you said galley, and then quoted yourself as saying galley. If you meant a galleon is superior to a caravel, then of course it is. If you still mean a galley, then your above percentages make no sense.

Sorry, I wrote "galley" when I meant "galleon". Surely that's obvious and you are just being difficult.

The jaw dropping change for me is the "espionage slider" . That's 4 sliders to think about now. It will impact on slider debates to do with SE vs CE because we will probably pay for it with commerce.

Also the need to get Great spys could make a simple SE more difficult.

Second thoughts, the specialist that generates the great Spy probably generates epionage points too so we may have achoice about how to gain espionage too.

State property blocks corporations, so State property is no longer a no-brainer in the late game. That could make for some hard calculations and decisions

Great spies? So we will see James Bond and .... Austin Power? :crazyeye:

wow I'm really excited for this, this can easily be better than Warlords.

Great spies? So we will see James Bond and .... Austin Power? :crazyeye:
http://www.crimelibrary.com/terrorists_spies/complete_list.html

On that page, Scroll down to the section about spies and assasins. The great spies names will most likely be taken from those.

Its going to be funny in game whenever a spies born, when it says "Sidney Reilly born in england" :lol: real stealthy

The more i read previews about this xp the more i'm convinced that this xp is not only about quantity but also quality.
Corporation feature a si understand it should make every single resource a lot more useful, and having 4-5 resource of the same type give advantages!Really a must have feature.
Espionage also seems a lot more important, than the 2 or 3 espionage missions added, considered that there is a new building all about spies and GP Spies.
My only fear is that we don't see more modern naval units like Cruiser or Nuclear Submarine.


If Portugal hasn't got a new trait like Seafaring probably we will have the same leader traits available in Civ4 and Warlords

Also the need to get Great spys could make a simple SE more difficult.

Second thoughts, the specialist that generates the great Spy probably generates epionage points too so we may have achoice about how to gain espionage too.
Just a guess, but it is imo likely that Great Spies work more like Great Generals, rather than other kinds of Great Persons, i.e. they are not generated by GPP but independently, by certain actions (e.g. using your spies to perform actions against enemies, having spying slider set to high level, etc.).

Another thought: they could improve Protective (which is, in opinions of many people, nerfed right now), by giving it a bonus to generate Great Spies, in the same way Imperialistic has a bonus for Great Generals. This would also make sense, since "Protective" civilizations would generally prefer more covert ways of defending against possible enemy attacks, etc. What do you guys think?

wow, everything looks awesome :goodjob:

Another thought: they could improve Protective (which is, in opinions of many people, nerfed right now), by giving it a bonus to generate Great Spies, in the same way Imperialistic has a bonus for Great Generals. This would also make sense, since "Protective" civilizations would generally prefer more covert ways of defending against possible enemy attacks, etc. What do you guys think?

Protective gives already a bonus to units, while Imperialistic gives exclusively a bonus to GG points, it would make Protective too much good if spy missions are really powerful.At the moment Protective is not the best trait but certianly has its usefulness if you know how to use it.
Among other things probably Espionage points will be given through funding, more money is diverted toward espionage, more spy points you get perhaps with a fixed ratio like 5 gold=1 espionage point

This info just changed my opinion from "must buy" to "must buy".

Rince

Hey kids,

It's Steve from IGN. I meant to send out a heads up about the interview before we posted it but I'm traveling this week and my web access has been spotty. I would have asked Charles to do it but he's from Canada so he's a little slow, eh? Anyway, I just wanted to point out that the leader in the screenshot is Pacal of the Maya.

Thanks. So another new civilization known.

I like the Statue of Zeus. double war wariness by your enemies

Great info.

[edit] Why doesn't Pacal have a bloodied tongue? :p

Cavalry needs rifling "thus extending the life of the musket" , but doesn't the musket age end with grenadiers? Hopefully the musket will get some bonuses too.

Grenadiers will rule with no cavalry around.

Among other things probably Espionage points will be given through funding, more money is diverted toward espionage, more spy points you get perhaps with a fixed ratio like 5 gold=1 espionage pointHmm. If Espionage points comes from a slider and the slider is based on commerce, then that would mean that a cottage spammed empire would effectively be better at generating 'spy points' than an empire using a specialist economy. I find that difficult to believe personally. Maybe both do exist: one generates points with a strong economy and the other allows points to be generated by actual spying - thus giving to paths to getting spy points.

I do like how State Property effectively kills corporations. It (imo) rebalances the power of State Property by forcing a trade off and makes Free Market more interesting. Man was I (and others) completely way off with how they're implemented. Cool though.

The spy stuff has me fascinated! Great Spy! Heh, I wonder what bonuses they could give? Maybe permanant removal of the fog of war on a selected city, the ability to nuke the city, subvert the city, steal tech.... Damn this looks good. :D

edit: oops, it seems it is a slider that diverts income afterall.

Anyone have a clue as to what the person with the cart is about in the Medieval pic? (and the person with the cross for that matter)

Anyone have a clue as to what the person with the cart is about in the Medieval pic? (and the person with the cross for that matter)

I wanted to ask the same. It looks similar as a treasure in viking scenario, but I doubt that the goal of two units is the same.

Why does a mediaeval monk carry a cart in the picture?

Anyone have a clue as to what the person with the cart is about in the Medieval pic? (and the person with the cross for that matter)

IMO these are units from a Crusades Scenario.The man with the cart seems a relic bearer, the other seems the portray of a Templar Knight

The man with the cart seems a relic bearer,

Could be an inquisitor figure for the apostolic palace victory, removing other religions. But he does look like a relic bearer.

IGNPC: Explain the new advanced start option and how it works? Is it an automatically generated feature or will players have control over what gets placed where? How will it work in multiplayer games?

Alex Mantzaris: Advanced Starts are a pre-game setup phase players use to purchase cities, improvements, buildings, technologies, and units. It works in both single-player and multi-player. The player decides what to purchase and where to place it. When everyone is done, the game starts with players controlling relatively balanced, advanced empires with a working infrastructure. This mechanism is ideal for those who want to jump right in and experience a balanced game in the modern era, without having to start with nothing but a few settlers and units.

i am going to love this feature

: Advanced Starts are a pre-game setup phase players use

But I wonder how you will be able to place the cities. Would the AI do it for you?

But I wonder how you will be able to place the cities. Would the AI do it for you?

You will probably begin with one city as in Ancient era, but with buildings, units and techs chosen by you

The player decides what to purchase and where to place it.

So I guess you place the cities where you want (clicky clicky on the right tiles).

The Weirdest thing with Spies is most of them are going to either be born in a civ they weren't born in, or one they would betray. I can't decide which would be stupider,

Alger Hiss has been born in Moscow!

or

Alger Hiss has been born in New York!

You will probably begin with one city as in Ancient era, but with buildings, units and techs chosen by you

It says you will be able to purchase cities, so you are wrong.

So I guess you place the cities where you want (clicky clicky on the right tiles).how would that work out when the AI also places towns at the same time?

btw I am amazed that some of you hail the SOZ wonder. You mean, you didn't have enough WW issues already? You are begging for more of that :smoke:? Did you ever think about that on higher levels the AI might actually built that before you?

I wonder what benefits the Great Spy super specialist would give?

edit: been thinking: maybe the guy with a cart has something to do with the random events in the game. There are apparently some random events that require you to do something and you'll receive a reward for completing it. Maybe it has something to do with that.

So basically yes, this expansion is heavily favouring sci-fi/fiction/fantasy scenarios over historical ones.

It really pays to consume a Great Person to found the headquarters of a corporation, since the city with the headquarters gets royalty income for each city in the world hosting a branch of that corporation.

Great Person, are they implying a GM or any in particular. If it does take a GM to build a HQ then they'll have 1 extra ability over the other Great People

GE - Wonder rush, SS (Super Specialist), LB (Lighbulb) and Ga (Golden age)
GS - Academy, SS, LB, Ga
GA - Culture bomb, SS, LB, Ga
GP - Shrine, SS, LB, Ga
GM - Trade mission , HQ, SS, LB, Ga

GG - WL (Warlord), Instructor, Military Academy.

SO All Great People except GG can be SS, LB techs and have Ga and have 1 Unique Ability,but if my assumption is correct the GM will have 2 Unique Abilities...

Maybe they'll make it that you can only found Corp through a special ability like golden ages using more then one Great Person and the Corps come with a HQ.

Hmm Unlikely... well I guess I'll need more information... so far Corps seem like more a of a 2nd Religion system in the late game with economy bonuses but without the diplomatic penalties so chances are you'll found Corp through tech. GMs founding Corps through Light bulb will be more important now, kind of like GPs founding religions.

I wonder what the missionary Unit for Corp will be called??... the Salesman??? LOL

Great Spies are born in your cities like Great Scientists or Great Prophets, and can perform the typical great person actions like settling in your city, starting a Golden Age, or building a unique building.

Great Spies will be Produced like normal Great People, not sure if actual spying or the Espionage Slider have anything to do with GSpys. From What I reed, they give you extra intelligence,

Wonder what the GSpy's special Ability is??? a Unique building??? hmmm maybe... I can't think of anything... except stealing a tech which seems more like a Light bulb but to only techs that have been researched by other Civs.

One of my new favorite leaders is Joao II of Portugal. He's especially fun to play because his traits (Imperialistic and Expansionist) and unique unit (Carrack) work very well together for early expansion and colonization.

Makes sense that the Carrack will be a transport ship... don't know if it's a Caravel or Galleon, although I'd prefer a Caravel that can Bombard cities like the Frigate. It'll make capturing Coastal cities more interesting in the early game.

But with Average traits and situational UU, The Portugal Civ better have a VERY GREAT UB.

As mentioned earlier, one focus of this expansion was to add more depth to the second half of the game. Restructuring the technology tree and spicing up the spaceship victory were good ways to accomplish that goal.

New Tech Tree... I wonder how Strategies will change in the game... it's probably more focused on the modern age of the tech tree, but you never know..

edit: been thinking: maybe the guy with a cart has something to do with the random events in the game. There are apparently some random events that require you to do something and you'll receive a reward for completing it. Maybe it has something to do with that.
Escort to city mission maybe?

So basically yes, this expansion is heavily favouring sci-fi/fiction/fantasy scenarios over historical ones.
What is with you people? ":cry:waaa:cry:waaa:cry:wah i can't enjoy anything because its not realistic enought". Leave realism up to Civ4:TR (which i dislike)

The screen shot with the cart was likely from a crusade scenario, just look at the troops. That missionary was probably pulling around a piece of the true cross which gives bonuses to the stack its in. I'm starting to get jitters over the new expansion.

I really like the idea of not having any corporations under State Property. Not only does it make perfect sense, it's also an ingenious way of nerfing State Property without actually nerfing State Property. Depending on how useful corporations are I now might actually use something else besides SP in the late game.

All in all BtS is shaping up to be almost Civ V, they can call it Civ 4.9 or something.

Sorry, I wrote "galley" when I meant "galleon". Surely that's obvious and you are just being difficult.

No. I was confused also.

Okay, this sounds just brilliant.

The cuirasser. About time! That was my suggestion when they made us do that questionaire way back before Warlords.

And the way corporations won't work with state property. Virulent said it. It's very clever indeed.

And needed.

I can't wait for this now.

I really like the idea of not having any corporations under State Property. Not only does it make perfect sense, it's also an ingenious way of nerfing State Property without actually nerfing State Property. Depending on how useful corporations are I now might actually use something else besides SP in the late game.I agree, I like it too! It also indirectly boosts Free Market too. Mercantilism will also become an interesting strategy to expand your corporation too as it's like Theocracy but for corporations.

It'll be interesting to see if any of the old leaders will have their favourite civics changed, now that the economic civics have changed.

I agree, I like it too! It also indirectly boosts Free Market too. Mercantilism will also become an interesting strategy to expand your corporation too as it's like Theocracy but for corporations.

It'll be interesting to see if any of the old leaders will have their favourite civics changed, now that the economic civics have changed.

I'm not sure whether it will boost Free Market.I'm sure corporations are a double-edged weapon.If you have a weak economy perhaps it has the same effect of a too fast expansion where mainteinance costs can have worst effect than the bonus to food, production or whatever else a corporation can give.One thing is sure Economic Civ choice will become a lot more interesting.Just curious whether Environmentalism will get some bonus to strenghten it, and what will be its relation with Corporations.

You're sure? :p

[edit] All corporations should increase gold income, in my opinion.

I am trying to do a summary for the news post but it's kinda hard because so much of the info are new. :D

I can understand. It took me a long time to get everything put into the BtS Information Center (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=222075) thread.

Its going to be funny in game whenever a spies born, when it says "Sidney Reilly born in england" :lol: real stealthy

:lol: Hadn't thought of that!

Wow, I was really impressed with this interview. Makes me wish I could speed up time. Though I can't wait for the game to come out, I shudder at the thought of preparing the HoF for it. ::eek:

Escort to city mission maybe?


What is with you people? ":cry:waaa:cry:waaa:cry:wah i can't enjoy anything because its not realistic enought". Leave realism up to Civ4:TR (which i dislike)




If I wanted to play a space-ship game I would have bought a space-ship game in the first place. If I want sci-fi roleplaying or shooting, I load up Half Life 2 or some other sci-fi game. Don't you think it's reasonable to want historically-themed scenarios in Civilization? Think of all the battles throughout history that they could have modelled and created unique graphics for. History is exciting enough without having to retreat into space ships and ugly monsters. :)

History is exciting enough without having to retreat into space ships and ugly monsters. :)
The monsters part i can understand, however the space race has always been in the game and its about time it was made better than just a easy victory.

On that note i wonder if the space race will get a new victory video?

With the changes to mounted units aren't war elephants going to way too overpowered where they now?

On that note i wonder if the space race will get a new victory video?

I hope so, I always found the space race victory video to be kind of lame. Actually the only victory video that I really liked was the conquest one.

how would that work out when the AI also places towns at the same time?

btw I am amazed that some of you hail the SOZ wonder. You mean, you didn't have enough WW issues already? You are begging for more of that :smoke:? Did you ever think about that on higher levels the AI might actually built that before you?

Statue of Zeus probably expires at an relatively early point (Divine Right?), so unless it's your neighbor the SOZ will have limited impact on you.

I imagine the AI will be selective in building it, I can't imagine one of the more 'peaceful' leaders going for it often (if at all)

I'm not sure whether it will boost Free Market.I'm sure corporations are a double-edged weapon.If you have a weak economy perhaps it has the same effect of a too fast expansion where mainteinance costs can have worst effect than the bonus to food, production or whatever else a corporation can give.One thing is sure Economic Civ choice will become a lot more interesting.Just curious whether Environmentalism will get some bonus to strenghten it, and what will be its relation with Corporations.I never said it would boost Free Market, I said it would indirectly boost Free Market. By making State Property eliminate the corporations bonus and by having Mercantilism make it less enticing for other civs to deal with you (not sure how that'll work, just like trade I presume), it makes Free Market (and I guess Enviromentalism) more valuable for getting the most from corporations.

With the changes to mounted units aren't war elephants going to way too overpowered where they now?What do you mean? I don't see how they would be too over the top with these changes.

btw I am amazed that some of you hail the SOZ wonder. You mean, you didn't have enough WW issues already? You are begging for more of that :smoke:? Did you ever think about that on higher levels the AI might actually built that before you?

Statue of Zeus probably expires at an relatively early point (Divine Right?), so unless it's your neighbor the SOZ will have limited impact on you.

I imagine the AI will be selective in building it, I can't imagine one of the more 'peaceful' leaders going for it often (if at all)

From my understanding of the article, the builder does not receive the doubling from SoZ, so its worth building and keeping it out of your opponents hands.

From my understanding of the article, the builder does not receive the doubling from SoZ, so its worth building and keeping it out of your opponents hands.But that means we need to have that wonder for denial purposes only, as WW doesn't cripple the AI on higher levels. The human however suffers big time, so it doesn't really give a big bonus in SP games...as I said, you need it for denial purpose only

But that means we need to have that wonder for denial purposes only, as WW doesn't cripple the AI on higher levels. The human however suffers big time, so it doesn't really give a big bonus in SP games...as I said, you need it for denial purpose only

In earlier announcements for BtS, it has been stated that the AI is smarter and will no longer need hefty bonuses to compete with a smart human. I originally thought this would mean the AI gets less health and happiness freebies on levels above noble. MAYBE the suffer from the same amount of war wariness now as well. This would cause the AI to suffer the effects of the Statue of Zeus.

Hey kids,

It's Steve from IGN. I meant to send out a heads up about the interview before we posted it but I'm traveling this week and my web access has been spotty. I would have asked Charles to do it but he's from Canada so he's a little slow, eh? Anyway, I just wanted to point out that the leader in the screenshot is Pacal of the Maya.

Thanks Steve!
Almost everything I hoped to be included in the expansion has been confirmed already. Native Americans, Privateers, Mayans, and the Babylonians.

Just waiting to hear about the Mayan UB (Ball Courts hopefully).

With the changes to mounted units aren't war elephants going to way too overpowered where they now?

If you mean Cavalry coming later, then elephants stay useful a little longer, although a pikeman stops them dead in their tracks (in fact even a humble spearmen has generally a 50/50 winning chance), And eles are rather situational don't you think?(only really good against knights, when knights are excellent against anything but eles and pikes), plus you need Ivory of course, which given a huge map is probably only 1/6 games.

Does anything else think the Mayan leader, Pacal, looks like a total jerk? He's probably going to declare war on me for not accepting his corporation - Illegal Drugs 'R Us.

He does look a bit like he's run into a window.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=153099&d=1179370741

I'm guessing that's Mayan, and vague enough to be edited into Indonesian.

@Alsark, are you sure it's Pacal? Smoke Jaguar seems like a better choice to me. Maybe he's mad that we just stole the Ancient Astronaut wonder? Or your human sacrifice was not sufficient enough for Mathematics?

EDIT: Wanna bet what the UB will be?

Stela? (yet another obelisk thing)

Ball court (universally mesoamerican though)?

a Mathematics-founded Observatory (replaces library? More culture less science?)?

I'm guessing that's Mayan, and vague enough to be edited into Indonesian.

@Alsark, are you sure it's Pacal? Smoke Jaguar seems like a better choice to me. Maybe he's mad that we just stole the Ancient Astronaut wonder? Or your human sacrifice was not sufficient enough for Mathematics?

EDIT: Wanna bet what the UB will be?

Stela? (yet another obelisk thing)

Ball court (universally mesoamerican though)?

a Mathematics-founded Observatory (replaces library? More culture less science?)?


Its already confirmed as Pacal.

Ball courts were Mesoamerican, but the Mayans some of the greatest courts, including the one at Chichen Itza.

Native Americans get a totem pole as their unique building. Why not a casino? :D

Native Americans get a totem pole as their unique building. Why not a casino? :D

It's more fun toying with tied cowboys. :D

Statue of Zeus probably expires at an relatively early point (Divine Right?), so unless it's your neighbor the SOZ will have limited impact on you.

I imagine the AI will be selective in building it, I can't imagine one of the more 'peaceful' leaders going for it often (if at all)

I think SoZ is very good for a peaceful builder who wants to be left alone - it is a perfect defender wonder, since it makes attacking the owner much less desireable.

This looks like an extremely different game. I am happy that the company behind this is Firaxis because other companies would just name it Civ 5 and get over with it.

I want to learn more about the Leaders. Firaxis , leak more information !

I wonder what the name of my 5th Great Spy will be when playing the Incas... coming up with historical names for these units will be interesting.

I am especially excited by the way Corporations and the revised space victory will work. I couldn't care less about the scenarios, but they're usually fun to check out at least once.

: Advanced Starts are a pre-game setup phase players use to purchase cities, improvements, buildings, technologies, and units. It works in both single-player and multi-player. The player decides what to purchase and where to place it. When everyone is done, the game starts with players controlling relatively balanced, advanced empires with a working infrastructure.

This could be good for SGs. Set up a modern start and play Epic speed, short turnsets, with variant that is based on the set up that you purchase. For example set up a corporation oriented empire and have a corporation oriented variant/goal.

Also, threads like the ALC can spend 5 pages discussing where to move the settler. Imagine the discussion if you had to decide where to place 5 cities and what infra to build.

I think late starts could become very popular.

I think SoZ is very good for a peaceful builder who wants to be left alone - it is a perfect defender wonder, since it makes attacking the owner much less desireable.


I guess it depends on the cost. Unless I was planning on wreaking havoc with all of my neighbor's economies via phony war (not necessarily a bad idea, to be honest), I think I'd rather spend the hammers on troops.

I also don't think the AI will see it as a deterrent to starting war (if I have it), just make them more likely to offer peace sooner.

First, what I have a problem with: I think they actually went from under-representing spies and espionage to OVER-representing them... this extra commerce slider is really iffy to me. There's so many other things that could potentially make more sense as a commerce slider than espionage. And Great Spies? There's already a number of other great people like Great Statesmen and Great Explorers that, to me, take priority.

But... we'll see. Maybe it will be more fun. I hope so, but my initial reaction is that this is a step in the wrong direction.

Now, what I am happy about: I like the Wonders, however, and I really like that the Civ4 team has been thinking much farther outside the box than Civ3. I would be annoyed if all the wonders were just "gives a free bank" or "gives a free library" or "gives +50% culture". I'm glad they're really being creative with new wonder effects.

I also like the corporations, and I really like that they have made Mercantilism, Free Market, and State Property actually have real depth with their corporation restrictions!

I don't really care a whole lot about new civs and leaders, but those are always a nice addition if they're properly balanced.

I also like that they've brought back the old space race conditions where you actually have to land on Alpha Centauri (or rather the fictional planet orbiting it) to win. But what I really wish is that they would have some more build up. I mean, humans haven't even gone to Mars because it's expensive and requires technologies that have only recently become available... Alpha Centauri would be such a vastly longer journey and require so much more experience with space travel and technological breakthroughs.

On the other hand though... pushing back the space race victory into some kind of futuristic world just gives those creative game developers time to develop a next-generation set of futuristic units that I will probably find too impractical and silly and really kill the effect for me, so perhaps I should be grateful ;)

Can't wait, Mayans are in and that makes me Happy.
Also, like the fact that four new general units have been mentioned for the epic game: privateers, paratroopers, tank guns and Cuirassiers. This means not every UU per new civ will replace the knight or horse archer, they'll spread them out better. I hope there are a few more general units as well to add to the depth of the game.
The corporation and espionage angle is going to give more variety to the game, so you have more ways to play.
Basically, this is going to be the best 30 bucks I've invested in an EP. Just have to wait ...

And wait ...

http://www.mythome.org/mayanames.html

or

Borrow names from myth?
http://www.native-languages.org/maya-legends.htm

I wonder what the name of my 5th Great Spy will be when playing the Incas... coming up with historical names for these units will be interesting.

If it's like GalCiv2 closely, the more money you divert to intelligence, the more general the info you get about their civs without actually spying it out with a unit. Like what techs do they actually have, not just what they're willing to trade. And the more money you have, the faster spies, saboteurs, and counter-spies are generated.

I'd love to see Politicians/Statesman, like an Oratory tech with Sophists, Athenian-style democracy, etc... Explorers being promoted to Great Explorers would be neat. Maybe that's something that could be modded into the quest system.

First, what I have a problem with: I think they actually went from under-representing spies and espionage to OVER-representing them... this extra commerce slider is really iffy to me. There's so many other things that could potentially make more sense as a commerce slider than espionage. And Great Spies? There's already a number of other great people like Great Statesmen and Great Explorers that, to me, take priority.



That's a good change, more realistic. That they kept Cavalry too is great.


They nerfed Cavalry! (sort of)
For instance, the Cuirassier is a new mounted unit that takes the place of the old Cavalry unit in the technology tree. We pushed Cavalry back to require rifling, thus extending the age of the musket and making the beeline to Military tradition less of a dominant strategy.

If it's like GalCiv2 closely, the more money you divert to intelligence, the more general the info you get about their civs without actually spying it out with a unit. Like what techs do they actually have, not just what they're willing to trade.

You can predict what they'll have though because the AI tech paths are so predictable. With OB and a chariot you should be able to find out all you need to know to attack well. I think espionage will have to deliver more than this knowledge to make it worth spending commerce or specialist value on.

You can predict what they'll have though because the AI tech paths are so predictable. With OB and a chariot you should be able to find out all you need to know to attack well. I think espionage will have to deliver more than this knowledge to make it worth spending commerce or specialist value on.

OB= order of battle from the Military advisor?

Ah, but you mostly need open borders for a chariot to spy info!!!

I think if they take away some of the free info you get now and make you pay for it in gold, that will increase the value of espionage. Info like the ranking statistics and knowledge of 3rd party relations should have to be bought.

Again if its like GalCiv2, you'll get a generic spy unit for every x commerce, and the spy can be planted in a city (like a civ3 spy mission), or sabotage production partially, or housed in one of your cities as a counterspy, staying until its neutralized by an enemy spy.

Wow, awesome, well this is beyond words!!!!

OB= order of battle from the Military advisor?

Ah, but you mostly need open borders for a chariot to spy info!!!

I'm trying to figure out if you were joking about OB being order of battle and then you make reference to the necessity of "open borders" in the second line... :confused:

I think if they take away some of the free info you get now and make you pay for it in gold, that will increase the value of espionage. Info like the ranking statistics and knowledge of 3rd party relations should have to be bought.

Again if its like GalCiv2, you'll get a generic spy unit for every x commerce, and the spy can be planted in a city (like a civ3 spy mission), or sabotage production partially, or housed in one of your cities as a counterspy, staying until its neutralized by an enemy spy.

I think, again, that this espionage system is too much. Spies needed some more love, but IMO, giving them a commerce slider was a bit too much love. You've got three commerces now... gold, science and culture totally 100% of your available commerce. Now you add in espionage? And you won't be able to just use 10% effectively... it's clear you have to pass certain "thresholds" to get the benefits... but why just espionage? I mean, if we're sort of breaking this down into a civ's basic budget, why not health? Why not happiness or military (give XP)? I mean, if we had to break down a country's total spending into only four categories for which three of them are things as broad and generalized as gold, culture and science, the fourth category is not going to be espionage.

So it seems to me that if the beef up espionage to justify its place as a commerce, it will overpowered and just silly. If they don't, it will be useless... either way I think it's a mistake.

I'm trying to figure out if you were joking about OB being order of battle and then you make reference to the necessity of "open borders" in the second line... :confused:



I think, again, that this espionage system is too much. Spies needed some more love, but IMO, giving them a commerce slider was a bit too much love. You've got three commerces now... gold, science and culture totally 100% of your available commerce. Now you add in espionage? And you won't be able to just use 10% effectively... it's clear you have to pass certain "thresholds" to get the benefits... but why just espionage? I mean, if we're sort of breaking this down into a civ's basic budget, why not health? Why not happiness or military (give XP)? I mean, if we had to break down a country's total spending into only four categories for which three of them are things as broad and generalized as gold, culture and science, the fourth category is not going to be espionage.

So it seems to me that if the beef up espionage to justify its place as a commerce, it will overpowered and just silly. If they don't, it will be useless... either way I think it's a mistake.

I hate to say it, but I have to agree with you. I am totally excited about everything in this expansion pack, but the espionage slider seems unnecessary, but I could be mistaken and maybe Firaxis will prove me wrong and make it really great.

Not if "once a certain threshold is reached it grants you benefits", and one of these benefits is a chance to learn / steal a new tech, then it could be an interesting investment....

If the espionage thresholds allow some kind of Tech leak it could be good.

Instead of just spending commerce or beakers on tech, you could help it leak in your direction.The tech leaks could give discounts to tech you self research or want to trade for

Also espionage could slow down other civ's teching speed.

I think, again, that this espionage system is too much. Spies needed some more love, but IMO, giving them a commerce slider was a bit too much love. You've got three commerces now... gold, science and culture totally 100% of your available commerce. Now you add in espionage? And you won't be able to just use 10% effectively... it's clear you have to pass certain "thresholds" to get the benefits... but why just espionage? I mean, if we're sort of breaking this down into a civ's basic budget, why not health? Why not happiness or military (give XP)? I mean, if we had to break down a country's total spending into only four categories for which three of them are things as broad and generalized as gold, culture and science, the fourth category is not going to be espionage.

So it seems to me that if the beef up espionage to justify its place as a commerce, it will overpowered and just silly. If they don't, it will be useless... either way I think it's a mistake.

Having the fourth slider being espionage is clearly unrealistic, but from a gameplay point of view it can be really wise.
If the espionage is made in a way that you can use espionage as a soft tactic to fight your enemies with covert actions, gameplay wise it will add a lot to gameplay.So it can be unrealistic (well too much!) but better than having an espionage which is more realistic but not fun to use IMO.

Having the fourth slider being espionage is clearly unrealistic, but from a gameplay point of view it can be really wise.
If the espionage is made in a way that you can use espionage as a soft tactic to fight your enemies with covert actions, gameplay wise it will add a lot to gameplay.So it can be unrealistic (well too much!) but better than having an espionage which is more realistic but not fun to use IMO.

Agreed which is why I said in my first post that we'll have to wait and see how it plays out. It may indeed be really fun, and that will be the determining factor ultimately in how successful it is, not how realistic it is. I'm not opposed to it being a more significant part of the game than it is now (since it's basically non-existent now), and my only real problem is the commerce slider because to me it takes it from being a virtually non-existent aspect of the game to a major aspect of the game when I think its real place in somewhere in between (both from a realism and a gameplay standpoint).

But I'm a modder... so if I really hate it, I'll just cut it out. And if I love it... I'll find a way to improve on it. ;)

I can't wait until I can rule the world through corporations. Finally State Property has a major drawback like in real life.

Excellent interview. Everything sounds far beyond my expectations, so all's looking good so far.

I am still trying to figure out whether those medieval units are part of a scenario or part of reg. gameplay. I'm assuming it's a scenario, but if the Teutonic knights are in play, could Poland or Austria-Hungary be another new civ?

I agreed with an earlier post about the Great Spies. While I am incredibly happy that espionage is finally get its due, I would rather have Great statesmen over great spies. They could have increased diplomatic points, or forced certain diplomatic conditions. Outside of performing some great espionage (read: expensive) action, I just don't see how the Great spies will work if we already have spy units.

Anyway, I am a happy clam otherwise.

I would rather have Great statesmen over great spies. They could have increased diplomatic points

Actually they can't create such diplomatic boost. How would the AI use them against the human player? :p

Something a personnaly hope is that they did something about razing cities. In modern-civ warfare, it's much easier to take cities (with bombardment and 2 moves-units). So if they add some spying action in this way, it will be even easier.

The point is I really don't like to raze cities which have a huge size, and even more, to have my cities razed... Also it's quite unrealistic. I'm note bothered with razing cities of small size, but if it becomes easier to raze cities huge size... :sad:

I am really interested in the spies and what the great spies will do. Notice in the interview it says something about "spreading propaganda."

What do you guys think that will be? Will you be able to incite revolutions? Spread propaganda for diplomacy reasons? Get the opponent to change their civics? What will it be...? :D

I am really interested in the spies and what the great spies will do. Notice in the interview it says something about "spreading propaganda."

What do you guys think that will be? Will you be able to incite revolutions? Spread propaganda for diplomacy reasons? Get the opponent to change their civics? What will it be...? :D

Quite possibly all of the above or something similar.Maybe a way to tip cities that are close to revolting over the edge a bit more quickly? It would be fun if you could spread "bad news" about Civ X to Civ Y, "Civ is X is cruel and nasty, don't be their friend" or something like that. This could cause more inter-ai strife, instead of the normal "great ai hippy hugs-for-all".

Oh, I like that idea :mischief:

Having the fourth slider being espionage is clearly unrealistic

Is it? How much money do you think the CIA, the FBI, the KGB, and the SIS get? I can guarantee you that they are a major part of government spending, not a minor.

I think it’s perfectly realistic to have espionage be so prominent, because the truly successful nations of the world really give a lot of attention to it.

I mean, if we're sort of breaking this down into a civ's basic budget, why not health? Why not happiness or military (give XP)?

Because you have Civics for that. You don’t need a slider for health. In real-life, the slider for health is the slider for research, anyway. The slider for happiness is already there: it’s culture. You just need to build a Colosseum/Broadcast Tower. Military is a combination of commerce and research, so it’s really already there. What is NOT there is a slider for Diplomacy. And this is my next point.

Keep in mind that you’ve got Civics and Improvements that affect: Health, Happiness, Military, Production, Commerce, Religion… and nothing that affects Diplomacy.

So you don't need a slider for any of those except the one that is missing and can't be modified by the other mentioned means: Diplomacy. Let's carry on this thought...

I mean, if we had to break down a country's total spending into only four categories for which three of them are things as broad and generalized as gold, culture and science, the fourth category is not going to be espionage.

You’re looking at this the wrong way. Think of the espionage slider as a Diplomacy slider. Because that’s really what it is. I’m not saying it’s necessarily good Diplomacy, but it is definitely the only slider that can affect your interactions with the other civs.

Maybe you can’t see espionage being so prominent in a civilization, that’s fine, even though it is, as I mentioned above. Just think of it as their way of giving you a Diplomacy slider that the AI can also use.

Surely you agree that espionage has massive diplomatic functions and that Diplomacy is a major part of a civilization’s budget, and that espionage is the only way to make it AI-usable Diplomacy.

Think of it that way. Don’t get hung up the words “spy” or “espionage”. Instead think of all the Diplomacy it entails.

There is no way to affect Diplomacy at this point except through reacting to the AI popping in. The espionage slider will finally give you that ability to invest in Diplomacy. Even if it is adverse Diplomacy.

And Great Spies? There's already a number of other great people like Great Statesmen and Great Explorers that, to me, take priority.

I agree that Great Spies is kind of a weird GP unit. But Great Explorers are not needed since the Great Merchants are already Great Explorers. Columbus, Jacques Cartier, and Vasco da Gama are all included as Great Merchants. That’s what explorers (discoverers) do, they establish new trade possibilities, thus making great income. That’s why they’re in Merchants. As for Great Statesmen… eh… nah. Great Politicians in general are iffy because those are essentially what the leaders are already. However, Great Diplomat is a GP unit I endorse.

We’ve got:

Engineer – Production
Scientist – Research
Artist – Culture
Merchant – Commerce
Priest – Religion
General – Military

Diplomacy is once again the only thing that’s missing. And once again, I see the Great Spy as the Diplomacy unit. It is really almost all it will do, diplomatic stuff. Bad diplomatic stuff, but it will always have to do with something diplomatic. And that is why I am ok with it. It is a GP unit that affects Diplomacy, and that the AI can use.

So:

Spy - Diplomacy

And all is complete.

I don't really care a whole lot about new civs and leaders, but those are always a nice addition if they're properly balanced.

Shouldn’t you be crying out for the Bralizian Empire (like I am)? Your name would definitely be the leader used for that Civilization, and I think it would be sweet. Push for it! Heh.

I hope they up the Genghis Khan AI's emphasis on this new espionage system. He placed a massive investment in creating an intellegence network and I hope that priority is reflected in the G.K's AI.

Is it? How much money do you think the CIA, the FBI, the KGB, and the SIS get? I can guarantee you that they are a major part of government spending, not a minor.

I think it’s perfectly realistic to have espionage be so prominent, because the truly successful nations of the world really give a lot of attention to it.Agreed. It does feel a little strange having an espionage slider in a civ game though, but that's because they have never done it this way before. It's also about having both ways of doing it: making units and diverting commerce to espionage. It's very different and unconventional for the Civ series.

Maybe, when the thresholds are reached, a spy unit is created!

All great dictators had prioritized information networks at some point, from Cyrus to Stalin (dictator i.e. dictator-like powers). :)

Good analysis, Hyoga!

All great dictators had prioritized information networks at some point, from Cyrus to Stalin (dictator i.e. dictator-like powers). :)I just hope it's reflected in the game. It would add a whole new dimension to the AI warmongers strategy imo.

Regardless of whether or not an espionage slider is unrealistic - being able to devote money to foreign policy doesn't sound unrealistic to me - that doesn't mean it's a change for the better. It has, for such a large change to the game's existing mechanics, been described too vaguely to be able to determine if it's a good inclusion.

Regardless of whether or not an espionage slider is unrealistic - being able to devote money to foreign policy doesn't sound unrealistic to me - that doesn't mean it's a change for the better. It has, for such a large change to the game's existing mechanics, been described too vaguely to be able to determine if it's a good inclusion.

I agree with this completely. :goodjob:

The espionage slider sounds like the worst idea of the expansion to me. And likely the possible last straw not to get a feature creep expansion for me.

A bad copy of the Galactic Civilization/Master of Orion design.

I know beelining to military tradition to get cavalry can be over-powering, but has the game, overall speaking, toned down the power of mounted units too much? Compared to the previous Civs series, you don't see withdrawal when being attacked, you don't see three movement units (riders in Civ 3), you see all kinds of unreal counterunits (1 spearman can handle two horse archers? No way in real world) and they are expensive. Afterall, mounted units were the king in cold war, and they are poorly represented in the game.

It does feel a little strange having an espionage slider in a civ game though, but that's because they have never done it this way before.

There was an espionage slider in Master of Orion. And that was basically Civ in space. It worked well, I thought.

It would be very interesting to add to the xml definitions the possibility to restrict maximum number of buildings and improvements per nation, as it is with units.
I would like it, if you are reading this, men from Firaxis :) :) ;)

The espionage slider sounds like the worst idea of the expansion to me. And likely the possible last straw not to get a feature creep expansion for me.

A bad copy of the Galactic Civilization/Master of Orion design.

I think you all have got this espionage slider all wrong. I don't think it will be a slider like the reserch slider (I really don't hope so), but an own slider for every Civilisation you've met in the diplomacy screen. Here you can set the slider for the civs you want to spy on to 1, 2, 3...etc. gold each turn, and over time, this will give you more and more info on that civ. This means you can still research at 100% if you have a surplus.....

Hyoga, you've made some great points, and overall you've made me feel more confident about the system... I still have some concerns however...

Is it? How much money do you think the CIA, the FBI, the KGB, and the SIS get? I can guarantee you that they are a major part of government spending, not a minor.

See, but the problem is there that you've also lumped in some organizations that spend a considerable amount of their time and money on domestic spying and anti-dissident activities. This espionage slider would provide nothing for that... and most other information networks created by leaders had as much to do with the threats from within as the threats from without.

Because you have Civics for that. You don’t need a slider for health. In real-life, the slider for health is the slider for research, anyway.

I'm not sure if I agree with that... the civic for health is Environmentalism which really has nothing to do with healthcare. And while new research does contribute to better healthcare, there's still the matter of that new technology actually being applied to the citizens... that money actually be spent to improve their health.

The slider for happiness is already there: it’s culture. You just need to build a Colosseum/Broadcast Tower. Military is a combination of commerce and research, so it’s really already there. What is NOT there is a slider for Diplomacy. And this is my next point.

Well, and this is really an issue about the somewhat disjointed way in which things work in civ. I mean, we build military buildings and units, but we don't have to actually pay for those things until after they're built in the form of upkeep. In reality, those things cost money and have to be included in the budget.

And ultimately, with upkeep of buildings and units you're determining how much of your gold budget you want to spend on a military... on the other hand, a commerce slider for espionage would be determining how much of your country's total trade/commerce is to be put towards espionage.

If anything, the gold commerce should be subdivided into its own sliders that would basically function as the government's budget. And that would be where I would recommend an espionage slider should go... determining what chunk of the GOLD you make is to go towards spying and diplomacy.

So you don't need a slider for any of those except the one that is missing and can't be modified by the other mentioned means: Diplomacy. Let's carry on this thought...

Well, my real issue is that I think diplomacy/espionage CAN indeed be modified by civics and buildings, and also from direct diplomacy already in the game. And I think that would be a better representation than a commerce slider.

But I'm interested in your points, and you've made me feel better at least about this even if I don't necessarily believe it is the best way to do things.

Shouldn’t you be crying out for the Bralizian Empire (like I am)? Your name would definitely be the leader used for that Civilization, and I think it would be sweet. Push for it! Heh.

I don't know why, but I've never really been big on including modern countries in civ... I'm only okay with America because it's achieved superpower status. If Brazil ever gets to that point, I will support its place without reservation. But I won't complain if they add it either :)

I think you all have got this espionage slider all wrong. I don't think it will be a slider like the reserch slider (I really don't hope so), but an own slider for every Civilisation you've met in the diplomacy screen. Here you can set the slider for the civs you want to spy on to 1, 2, 3...etc. gold each turn, and over time, this will give you more and more info on that civ. This means you can still research at 100% if you have a surplus.....

While I think that would be the best way to do it, I doubt that this will be how it's actually done.

While I think that would be the best way to do it, I doubt that this will be how it's actually done.Uh I dunno, I think Andy_Candy is onto something. I could see a foreign advisor with a slider to set espionage to a particular rival. Think about it this way: If there was one generic slider for all leaders, then that would mean that it would fund espionage against every other leader? So increasing the slider means that your intellegence is improved against every leader in the game - even the ones you haven't met yet? In that context, it makes more sense having sliders per leader, GalCiv2 style.

CIA,FBI,FSB,MI6 doesn't have a budget which is around even 10% of a country.If you consider that USA spend nearly 500 billion dollars for military budget which is around 4% of American PIL and that intelligence is just a small part of the militarty budget you understand how it is unrealistic a spy slider.In any case also spending 100% income in research is absolutely unrealistic.Considering that no feature in the game is trying to simulate reality i don't see anything wrong against it.
What i would find really wrong from a gameplay perspective is if espionage will be just barely useful.If you have an espionage slider (in which you can even set 100% of your income), this feature must give me some interesting stuff, in other words it must have at least some decisive instrument to win a war or to help my armies and being useful even during peace.If espionage will be only about getting info, or "destroy improvement" it will be clear that the feature will not be well implemented because no one would waste money in this way.
I also agreee that some info about treaties, military and other stuff which is freely available in civ4 and warlords should need intelligence spending to make ithe latter more useful.

Spying can drain a lot of one country resourses in RL; just look at the STASI at Eastern Germany.

But, back in to the game: if the spy slider can bring major economic bonuses (representing Private corporated spying too), it can be interesting. Besides that, I can't see an use for it.

Something mentioned here that got me thinking, mabye in BtS we will have internal revolts, and the espionage slider would also make a seceret police force to deal with them :O

Uh I dunno, I think Andy_Candy is onto something. I could see a foreign advisor with a slider to set espionage to a particular rival. Think about it this way: If there was one generic slider for all leaders, then that would mean that it would fund espionage against every other leader? So increasing the slider means that your intellegence is improved against every leader in the game - even the ones you haven't met yet? In that context, it makes more sense having sliders per leader, GalCiv2 style.

The more I think about it, the more this approach makes sense, otherwise if it is an "overall commerce" slider, then you could theoretically have it at 100%, which just sounds so open to various exploits. It also would be frankly ludicrous to have 100% of commerce going towards espionage, therefore I'm with Mr Candy's suggestion as well.

EDIT:- I'll explain a little more clearly ;).....If its a generic slider like the already existing ones, then the most it could be designed to be set at is 20% or 30% (the very most. I mean, think about it, that only leaves 70% for gold and science, and never mind culture). Therefore, if some how you were running 100% commerce to espionage, then that would have to give you insane benefits, which I'm sure would lead to exploits. So that's why I'm with Andy-Candy's idea.

Even so, it's impossible to theorise accuractely over something we have no idea how it works, so until we know more infom we're just completely guessing.........

So can you finally colonize other planets and explore space with this new edition or is this just a space race diagram where it shows the various space ships leaving the planet and heading towards Alpha Centori? :confused:

So can you finally colonize other planets and explore space with this new edition or is this just a space race diagram where it shows the various space ships leaving the planet and heading towards Alpha Centori? :confused:

Yeah it's most likely the Space race or a Space scenario, it you want to play Civ in Space, Play GalCiv2.

I think the espionage slider's usefulness will also depend on what point in time on the tech tree will it become available, Obviously in the early game you have a very limited amount of commerce and you're too busy and surviving and expanding so I Doubt the espionage slider will come into play much at that point in the game.

I Assume the espionage slider will come in play around the late industrial or early modern age, where you generally have a bit of gold spare in the treasury (Most likely from Corporations) or running a surplus that you want to allocate funds on spying an enemies/rivals building the spaceship or something along the lines, we'll have to wait and see how it's implemented in the game.

Another thing I've been wondering will the slider change from 10% Intervals to 5% intervals because of the extra slider, it be difficult to allocate funds the way you want too... It's probably just a preference of mine, although I wouldn't mind with the discover of the espionage slider that we can allocate Commerce in 5% intervals.

They completely dropped the ball with the Souix.

Totem poles are made by cultures of the Pacific Northwest, not the Plains or Great Lakes. The Souix have never made totem poles.

They should have used Lakota which is how the Lakota prefer to be known & what they call themselves. Souix was originally a derogatory name given to them by the French.

If they are going to make a game based on culture & history, they should at least read an ecyclopedia entry or something. It's sad to see they have resorted to stereoptypes. The most basic research would have corrected this.

They completely dropped the ball with the Souix.

Totem poles are made by cultures of the Pacific Northwest, not the Plains or Great Lakes. The Souix have never made totem poles.

They should have used Lakota which is how the Lakota prefer to be known & what they call themselves. Souix was originally a derogatory name given to them by the French.

If they are going to make a game based on culture & history, they should at least read an ecyclopedia entry or something. It's sad to see they have resorted to stereoptypes. The most basic research would have corrected this.


It is not yet confirmed that Sitting Bull is leading the Souix. As of now any information shows that the civ is going to be called Native Americans. This would be lumping all NA tribes into one civ.

I would also prefer that they are called Lakota, but so far it seems as if it will be Sitting Bull of the Native Americans.

A lot of people look unhappy with the espionage development, so I just had to quote DrewBledsoe:
Even so, it's impossible to theorise accuractely over something we have no idea how it works, so until we know more infom we're just completely guessing.........
_____

I bet they're going to call them the Native Americans, but I would have preferred it if they named them Indians instead. Sitting Bull of the Indian Empire, with a flag that had a big, bold "©" on it. :D

I bet they're going to call them the Native Americans, but I would have preferred it if they named them Indians instead. Sitting Bull of the Indian Empire, with a flag that had a big, bold "©" on it. :D

Asoka and Gandhi might object :mischief:

Yeah, I suppose you're right. Whatever PC (political correctness, not personal computer!) crap they always put in the game, like the civilopedia entry on liberalism, in this case it makes sense. It's too easy to get India and the American tribes confused.

Is Portugal's UU the only naval one in the game now? Perhaps it will let you take settlers across early! (That is, it replaces a caravel but allows settlers onboard.) If so, I'd definitely want to play as that civ. They were perhaps the most underrated civilization of Civ 3.

Asoka and Gandhi might object :mischief:Doubt it - they're dead! :)

mrbee (if you're reading), can you answer something that has been bugging quite a few people for a little while now?

Is it "Sitting Bull of the American Indian empire" or "Sitting Bull of the Sioux empire"?

I dare say the answer to that will either end the discussion or start 10 more...

Looks awesome. I'm looking forward to trying the Civ in Space scenario.

Any guesses as to how long it'll take spaceships to reach Alpha Centauri? According to Wikipedia it's 4.37 light-years away, so that could take quite a few years by spaceship.At Warp 5 that's only 12 days. :)

Is Portugal's UU the only naval one in the game now? Perhaps it will let you take settlers across early! (That is, it replaces a caravel but allows settlers onboard.) If so, I'd definitely want to play as that civ. They were perhaps the most underrated civilization of Civ 3.
What if Civs finally get two UU's each? Oh, speculation!

What if Civs finally get two UU's each? Oh, speculation!

You mean 1 Land UU and 1 Sea UU per Civ? Maybe but only if they renovate the Navel Units by adding more of them and counters like the current land unit have. Currently at sea it generally the Unit with the most strength wins. Who knows...

You mean 1 Land UU and 1 Sea UU per Civ? Maybe but only if they renovate the Navel Units by adding more of them and counters like the current land unit have. Currently at sea it generally the Unit with the most strength wins. Who knows...
Actually, thinking about it, giving all Civs 2 UU's sounds boring. The game will become over-saturated with Unique Units, the player won't feel their uniqueness anymore.

1 Ground 1 Naval doesn't sound good either, even if the sea had the same combat complexity as land. There's no terrain advantage to speak of, and it will all boil down to the same thing: each side has counters for everything, the one with more ships win.

Actually, thinking about it, giving all Civs 2 UU's sounds boring. The game will become over-saturated with Unique Units, the player won't feel their uniqueness anymore.
I disagree, it gives more uniqueness to a particular civ... at the moment all civs fell the samey.

Is Portugal's UU the only naval one in the game now? Perhaps it will let you take settlers across early! (That is, it replaces a caravel but allows settlers onboard.) If so, I'd definitely want to play as that civ. They were perhaps the most underrated civilization of Civ 3.

Yes, they were.... Bad leader choice, confliting traits and a UU that became obsolete with the next tech :confused: ....

But Civ IV Portugal UU is going to be the only naval UU, I better hope it is a damn good one ( add bombard to your list, for an example). If not, Civ III spectra again...

What about one land and one other for that sake? (like settler, worker, missionary, sea, air or whatever) but Generally, I'd much rather see a Unique national wonder for each civ, quite easy to find for every civ, you can give them much diverse effects and it would be an addition, not a doubling. Or else, they could add a unique ability, make it flanking III promotion for the Mongols, thermae unique building for the Romans, Super Caste-Civic for india, the Sphinx for Egypt, etc. you know something unique for every civ that doesn't have to fall in the same category. That way you can add second uniques but you don't have to invent one for some civs (2uu for inca? you'd be hardpressed, but you can easily give them a bonus to roads, mountains or whatever...)

But I will not mourn if they add neither (which is probable).

mick

Unique National Wonders would be cool. The Incans could have something that allows them to make use of the mountains or surviving in hostile territory. For the Mongols, I'd go for extra first strikes for mounted units (or have Withdrawl III give a first strike bonus). The Aztecs could have an enslave type of ability, etc. Nice :)

Hey! I've been working on this idea since January! (Unique NW's)

About two UU's per civ: it will be very hard to find a good naval and land UU for each civ. What in the world would be the Mongol or Zulu ship?!

Hey! I've been working on this idea since January! (Unique NW's)

About two UU's per civ: it will be very hard to find a good naval and land UU for each civ. What in the world would be the Mongol or Zulu ship?!

ive had that for ages

yes molgols used ships but aren't famous for it

yes molgols used ships but aren't famous for it

The only great mongol sea acheivement I can recall is the ( ill-fated )Invasions of Japan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_invasions_of_Japan)... Not a good part of Mongol History, methinks :lol:

Mongol ship could be a Caravel that has 50% chance of sinking every turn ;).

or a 100% chance of finding a typhoon when Kublai's leader...

Asoka and Gandhi might object
I rather think indian people refer to their country as Baratha.

Sioux comes from Nadowessioux which mean snakes. It is the name given by rival tribes for this tribal confederation to french explorers when they were introduced. that said you can allways consider Hunkpapas or Lakotas be a civilization on its own but ...

I mean, if we had to break down a country's total spending into only four categories for which three of them are things as broad and generalized as gold, culture and science, the fourth category is not going to be espionage.


I totally agree. Its a bit much. Surely other things are more important to a national budget then freaking espionage. And can you imagine a government releasing its future budget and saying "Well, we're raising our espionage spending to 30% of our total budget. That means you'll be paying higher taxes, and we're cutting education spending by 10%."

Seriously?

But, I am also willing to bet that they thought about other sliders and thought that it wouldnt be fun. A health slider would make sense, but would that be fun? Not really.

I think they should have just beefed up spy options in both the unit (or add new spy units) and in a building.

And Great spies...what a joke. Great diplomats, great politicans, great explorers...those would have been better served I think. Can the average person REALLY name off names of "great" spies in history? I really dont think so.

All the spy stuff is WAY over the top. There is just no way I believe that someone classified as a great spy comes close to equaling the influence of a great scientist, general, musician, or prophet.

I rather think indian people refer to their country as Baratha.


All my Indian (Barathan?) co-workers refer to it as 'India' ... maybe they're just being polite?

But Civ IV Portugal UU is going to be the only naval UU, I better hope it is a damn good one ( add bombard to your list, for an example). If not, Civ III spectra again...

You seem pretty confident that none of the other BtS expansion civs will have a naval UU. My thought is that if the Byzantines are added they may have the Dromon again.

Glitch... forgot the "if"... But until now the Carrack is the only naval UU

Maybe holland will get a ship too.

And Great spies...what a joke. Great diplomats, great politicans, great explorers...those would have been better served I think. Can the average person REALLY name off names of "great" spies in history?

Maybe you never heard of them because they were so great at spying. :lol: :lol:

Mr. Civtastic:
I totally agree. Its a bit much. Surely other things are more important to a national budget then freaking espionage. And can you imagine a government releasing its future budget and saying "Well, we're raising our espionage spending to 30% of our total budget. That means you'll be paying higher taxes, and we're cutting education spending by 10%."

Seriously?

Yes, seriously. Devoting commerce to espionage is very probably equivalent to devoting commerce to foreign policy.

Great ninjas would be better :ninja:

We ARE forgetting something... this IS Beyond the Sword. Perhaps espionage and its slider don't come until later in the game, when it historically began to play a much greater role in wars. (Not to say it didn't before.)

BtS refers to both the post gunpowder era and increased non-military options so there's no reason why you would have to wait for an industrial era technology to unlock the espionage slider.

But I do agree that a tech will probably be needed to unlock the espionage slider. If it didn't already unlock significant game elements, I'd go for civil service.

Makes sense to me. Drama unlocks the culture slider, so why wouldn't a later tech unlock the espionage slider?

I agreed that a technology would probably unlock the espionage slider. And the technology I mentioned appears later than (that is; to the right of) drama in the technology tree.

I bet when your spy stirs and creates dissent in a enemy nation, he creates barbarians. Also the paratroopers should add a great new perspective to the game. Instead of amphibious assaults...full airborne operations.

Great ninjas would be better :ninja:

I wouldn't be surprised if one of the Great Spy names happened to be Hazno Hattori.

A ninja smiley, why did no one inform me of this earlier???? :ninja:

I do agree that it seems a little odd to spend 10% of your budget just on spying, seeing as that often equals 1 more turn spent researching a tech. it is true that a health care slider would be more accurate, but how often would you use it? It would just be a weaker, more pathetic version of the culture slider.

I've just had a completely OT idea. How about remove the happiness bonus from the culture slider and replace it with a GPP bonus. Then have a new slider called "Social" (or something like that) which gives +1 happy for each 10%, and +1 health for every xxx gold that the city generates as 'social' commerce.

The rest of the additions to the expansion all seem really good, but the espionage side sounds like it might be comletely overdone.

Theres no doubt that spying needed massive improvements. It is so boring and unimaginitive in it's present form that using spies often just doesn't seem worth it. But now it seems that Firaxis has listened to our concerns over spying, looked at improving the aspect, and taken it too far. I know I can't jusge it properly until I've used the feature, but, IMO, having an espionage slider and a Great Spy GP seems to be taking it OTT. Great Explorers, Great Admirals or something like that I could understand, but not a Great Spy. What spying needs most of all is better missions and to come earlier, as well as the ability to build an intelligence network. On the surface, what is being added all seems a bit tacky.

Great Explorers

What's the point of these units? It's widely acknowledged that, for its ability to explore, the explorer unit is almost useless (though there are creative uses for it). How can a great explorer be justified in CivIV without an overhaul of the game so large it goes way beyond what can be expected of an expansion pack.

Great Admirals

Great Generals can give all of their bonuses to ships as well as land units. Naval combat isn't well defined enough to justify seperating the military great people into two (and I don't believe that the act of creating a great admiral would provide the required definition).

I understand that that Great Explorers and Great Admirals would need need an overhaul of the game, but surely you can agree that they are more deserving of a spot then a Great Spy. As many have already stated, who will these people be? A truly great spy is unkown, because thats what makes a great spy.

Just call spying national security then. Isn't it how politicians in reality sugar-coat it?

I do think they should put a cap on certain sliders. I don't think any people in any country will accept the fact that 100% of their income tax has gone to "national security" expenditure. Maybe cap it at 30%.

I think the Great Spy is downright ridiculous, and when it was first announced I was very worried about corporations, too. Just sounds like a religion clone in the late game--nothing interesting there, and arguably repetitive.

An intelligence overhaul is badly needed, but I don't think this was the way to go. I'd have preferred a more Civ-3ish way of doing things, with a centralized control instead of more units to move around. And I don't like having to sacrifice money and research for better spying. But I'll hold off judgment, for now...

I understand that that Great Explorers and Great Admirals would need need an overhaul of the game, but surely you can agree that they are more deserving of a spot then a Great Spy. As many have already stated, who will these people be? A truly great spy is unkown, because thats what makes a great spy.

I don't agree. Introducing a great explorer or a great admiral would add nothing new to the game - would serve no point. There are many uses that a great spy can be put to;
1) settled in a city; reduces 'it's too crowded' unhappiness by 10% - 20%
2) has better odds of completing spying missions.
3) can create a center of espionage operations in other civs (reduces risk of missions in that civ)
4) can create an espionage center in one of your own cities which provides bonuses to the amount of espionage points generated by that city.
I'm not saying that all of these can or should be implemented. I'm just saying that there is lots of room for improvement in espionage and a great spy unit can provide a game mechanic to unlock some espionage features.

I also consider whatever acts the great spy unit performs to be of greater significance to the game than what the spy happens to be called. I do hope that the whole world doesn't recieve the message 'John Smith (great spy) has been born in London' but that's because the presence of spies should be secret.

Spying does need an overhaul. I'm glad that the espionage slider is being introduced for two reasons:
1) in CivIV terms, an espionage slider is essentially a foreign policy slider.
2) I'd much rather see more advanced espionage conducted through a new game mechanic than solely through spy units.
The espionage slider may prove to be a poor addition to the game but there's no reason so far to dismiss it.

An intelligence overhaul is badly needed, but I don't think this was the way to go. I'd have preferred a more Civ-3ish way of doing things, with a centralized control instead of more units to move around. And I don't like having to sacrifice money and research for better spying. But I'll hold off judgment, for now...

I prefered CivIII's espionage as well (about the only mechanic I prefered in that game). But you did have to sacrifice money and research for better spying in CivIII. An espionage slider that acrues 'espionage points' isn't much different to from paying for espionage with gold.

I know one of the Great spies. His name is Bond. James Bond.;)

It was mentioned that Great Spies are generated like other Great People e.g. Great Scientists, Great Prophets etc. Is it going to be independent like Great Generals or mixed in with the other GP pool? EDIT: now I think about it, it has to be independent really.

http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/1372/attachmentxb6.th.jpg (http://img527.imageshack.us/my.php?image=attachmentxb6.jpg)
Can't you build roads in BtS anymore?

I'd like the espionage element to help with diplo victories. In some way influence civs to vote for you or open up channels that let you get more diplo modifiers.

Can't you build roads in BtS anymore?

There's something else that's interesting about that picture... what the heck is there that's new in it?

I've looked at it carefully and I can find no new features in it. There's a carrier, destroyer, and several other exisiting naval units, a jet fighter flying overhead, and infantries running around. In fact, what's interesting is what's NOT in it--cruisers! I saw the Pentagon, Spiral Minaret and a few other wonders, but nothing's new! What's the deal?

Maybe it was an old pic IGN had and they needed one more to space the article? Anyway, I don't see anything new there either.

Honestly, I think the spy bar would be great as long as it is in the diplomacy screen and you can adjust it for each civ rather than it being as important and in the same place as the research bar etc. I just hope we can cause wars between other nations.
Ex: Say Nation X is very strong and so is Nation Y and both are in your way so you decide to great havok in each nation and somehow blame the damage in Nation Y on Nation X and vice versa so they eventually attack each other and grind each other down to a point where you can cleanly take over the continent.

There's something else that's interesting about that picture... what the heck is there that's new in it?

I've looked at it carefully and I can find no new features in it. There's a carrier, destroyer, and several other exisiting naval units, a jet fighter flying overhead, and infantries running around. In fact, what's interesting is what's NOT in it--cruisers! I saw the Pentagon, Spiral Minaret and a few other wonders, but nothing's new! What's the deal?

I also noticed that nothing appeared to be new, that is until the lack of roads made me think that hovercraft technology had been discovered, or everybody flew around in flying cars, or off-road segways, or those floating skateboards like in Back to the Future.

Hah. This is funny. In regard to BtS, I once said a while back:


Either way, how far ahead are we going? Put it this way: Where we're going, we don't need...roads.

I thought at first that this screenshot is from a scenario, but that seems less likely now. In any case, we don't know, we'll see.

mick