I was reading the BtS info thread and came across a couple of points of interest that I thought would make for some interesting discussion.

The first is that cavalry is being pushed back to require rifling! Those domination victories will be coming later now for sure :lol:

What do you think renaissance fighting will be about now? I can see grenadiers being the dominant unit of choice. The fact that cavalry are being pushed back so late, and that chem can be lightbulbed, means that there isn't going to be much that will be able to stand up to early grenadiers...

The second is that one of the new leaders is going to be the (in my opinion, all powerful) trait combo of aggressive-charismatic.

Fun...fun...

well, calvary are being pushed back, but you missed what will be in its stead, the curiasseur, a very french unit that will probably have slightly more power than a grenadier to balance that out(still waiting for a finninsh civ with Hackapell as UU, firaxis!) I imagine Renaissance fighting will be all about the tech lead, and leveraging your full-fledged economy to rush your units into the fray. I also imagine that musketmen will be far more important, because they have no natural counter. Cannons will also play a much larger role in cracking open cities and attacking maurading raiding parties of grenadiers.

The Arg/cha combo is killer, but remember that the Celts have a mediocre UU and a horrible UB, so it all balances out. now,if the Dun gave free Guerilla promotions to all units, those would be some monstrous SoD Boudinca could assemble!

It'll depend on what bonuses the curiasseur and the musket get. They stated that they intended to extend the life of the musket so thay must be thinking along the lines of boosting the musket. This could mean a bonus vs something.

Hopefully the curriasuer will have bonuses against the grenadier so it's a balanced field late renaissance

i managed to forget at least once, and i think twice :crazyeye:, while rushing to cavalry that i needed gunpowder to actually make them, not just military tradition. i'm sure i'll be pretty confused for a while when the expansion comes out, about this and other changes!

i managed to forget at least once, and i think twice :crazyeye:, while rushing to cavalry that i needed gunpowder to actually make them, not just military tradition.

I guess the Cuirassier will not need gunpowder so it may still be an early unit when combined with a Liberalism lightbulb strat. Maybe Cuirassier plus drafted maces.

well, calvary are being pushed back, but you missed what will be in its stead, the curiasseur, a very french unit that will probably have slightly more power than a grenadier to balance that out(still waiting for a finninsh civ with Hackapell as UU, firaxis!) I imagine Renaissance fighting will be all about the tech lead, and leveraging your full-fledged economy to rush your units into the fray. I also imagine that musketmen will be far more important, because they have no natural counter. Cannons will also play a much larger role in cracking open cities and attacking maurading raiding parties of grenadiers.

The Arg/cha combo is killer, but remember that the Celts have a mediocre UU and a horrible UB, so it all balances out. now,if the Dun gave free Guerilla promotions to all units, those would be some monstrous SoD Boudinca could assemble!

Well Gunpowder units can promote through the Guerilla line and the Walls/Dun don't obsolete till Rifling so She could technically build an army of Combat1 + Guerilla1 Muskets and Grenadiers or she could draft a whole lot of Muskets with Combat1 and Guerilla1.

One thing is certain. I'll be using a lot more Machine Guns once the expansion is out.

The cuirrasier will likely be weaker than cav (obviously) though so I don't think it will be the dominant unit cav currently are.

They will have to counter grens I'm thinking or else grens will simply replace cav as a slightly-less-dominant-but-still-pretty-unstoppable unit.

I wouldn't mind if they boosted muskets. As they are currently I only really use them for defending cities and drafted muscle to support my cav.

As for agg-cha, who the heck needs a uu or ub or starting techs for that matter with that trait combo :lol: Seriously, free combat one PLUS cheaper promotions...O-M-G!!!

The damage this leader is going to be able to do in the hands of a half-decent (i.e., human) warmongerer is going to be completely insane :lol:

A cuirassier *is* a gunpowder unit (very heavy cav).
French, Swedish and Russian napoleonic units.

Althought they were mostly used as charge, and so used their saber, they were also equiped with muskets.
If logic is respected they should have very high bonus charging (attaking) in the open rifles or grens.

Just a question but does that mean the Conquistador will replace the cuirassier instead of the knight in BTS???

I wouldn't know, I haven't studied history formally so yeah lol

Just a question but does that mean the Conquistador will replace the cuirassier instead of the knight in BTS???

I wouldn't know, I haven't studied history formally so yeah lol

I wouldn't know, it depends in when the curiassers appear. I would say it would still be the knight as th conquistador came about right near the end of the medieval age..

Just a question but does that mean the Conquistador will replace the cuirassier instead of the knight in BTS???

I wouldn't know, I haven't studied history formally so yeah lol

I don't think so, but they may do that. The conquistadores were the forerunner to the cuirasseur, but they didn't have as powerful muskets and relied heavily on their lances. HOwever, they were in place at about the same time, so Firaxis may do that.

I have to say, I'm not looking forward to BTS.

There's been no mention of getting rid of the ridiculous free tech with Liberalism, so unless they change the order of GP techs we're going to see the same old lightbulb your way to Liberalism strategy.

Then again, hopefully a revamped tech tree will make the difference.


Back on topic I would say that on the surface Agg/Cha seems very powerful, we'll just have to see what changes if any are made to those traits.

Well, if they made some other lightbulbing routes more attractive, then I don't think people would constantly be beelining liberalism.

For example, I'd love to lightbulb more with GMs, but the fact that they get less beakers than a GS and the mediocre techs are much harder to clear away leads to GSs being the more attractive option. Not to mention that the GL gives two free GSs.

I mean, for pete's sake, I would love to get a GM off a wonder early on in preparation for bulbing CS, but they had to go and put a stupid free priest on the ToA ruining a good option there...

Well, if they made some other lightbulbing routes more attractive, then I don't think people would constantly be beelining liberalism.

For example, I'd love to lightbulb more with GMs, but the fact that they get less beakers than a GS and the mediocre techs are much harder to clear away leads to GSs being the more attractive option. Not to mention that the GL gives two free GSs.

I mean, for pete's sake, I would love to get a GM off a wonder early on in preparation for bulbing CS, but they had to go and put a stupid free priest on the ToA ruining a good option there...


You give some good examples of what I'm talking about. Giving us some alternatives to lightbulbing towards Lib.

In vanilla civ we had the Civil Service slingshot but Warlords helped do away with that. I'm hoping that BTS can make some different, but equally effective routes through the early tech tree, giving the game some variations.

Great Merchants will now be able to start corporations so they're a little more attractive, but that won't come til later in the game though.

I too grow weary of the race to Liberalism, but I always find myself chasing it not only for the free tech but also for denial.

Looking forward to Cha/Agg though, you can get a taste of it in the Rise of Rome scenario, Hannibal is Cha/Agg/Fin. I doubt it will be too unbalanced though as it lacks any real economic benefit aside from the +1 happy face.

As for more units that will be great to though on normal speed the renaissance era sounds like you won't be building many curaissiers though if they add more gunpowder units older units will be getting obsolete fairly quickly.

I have a nasty way to prolong the lifespan of musketmen ...
Just make the research of Chemistry requires Printing Press :p


Anyway,with the current tech tree, Chemistry (Grens) is just one tech away from the Musketmen , and the difference of strength is 3 (12-9),33% increase of musketmen ...

I don't think there would be great bonuses to Musketmen to make them useful under the same tech tree...

I have a nasty way to prolong the lifespan of musketmen ...
Just make the research of Chemistry requires Printing Press :p


Anyway,with the current tech tree, Chemistry (Grens) is just one tech away from the Musketmen , and the difference of strength is 3 (12-9),33% increase of musketmen ...

I don't think there would be great bonuses to Musketmen to make them useful under the same tech tree...

Now, the musketmen are only of value because they can be drafted.
The fact that grenadiers can be built soon after them isn't really relevant, since grenadiers can't be drafted.

Great Merchants will now be able to start corporations so they're a little more attractive, but that won't come til later in the game though.

I too grow weary of the race to Liberalism, but I always find myself chasing it not only for the free tech but also for denial.

Looking forward to Cha/Agg though, you can get a taste of it in the Rise of Rome scenario, Hannibal is Cha/Agg/Fin. I doubt it will be too unbalanced though as it lacks any real economic benefit aside from the +1 happy face.

As for more units that will be great to though on normal speed the renaissance era sounds like you won't be building many curaissiers though if they add more gunpowder units older units will be getting obsolete fairly quickly.

It's actually +2 happy faces (with monument) during a crucial period of the game. And you say it like it's no big deal, but it's actually HUGE, especially at higher levels. It makes a HUGE difference! That's 2 more cottages, 2 more farms, 2 more hills, 2 more specialists (assuming sufficient food), etc. Across multiple cities early on...HUGE!

On another topic...making grens require pp wouldn't do much. I routinely get pp before chem and it doesn't really slow me down. Both can be lightbulbed easily. It's true the value of the musket is in its draftability. The problem with it is that it doesn't do much other than hold a city well and provide some mediocre stack defence. If they want it to DO something, they have to make it CAPABLE of doing something. For one thing they would have to do better against fortified longbows. If they did a bit better against longbows, I'd definitely use them more.

about muskets : maybe they're not intended to be used more ;)
Early gunpowder weapons weren't light, weren't efficient, weren't fast!

Well, supposedly the designers want muskets to be used more post-xpac...

Given when the chinese first created gunpowder (as a drug/elixer not a weapon) they could move gunpowder much earlier in the tree - I'm not saying that muskets should come very early - but they certainly could be moved up, away from grenadiers by quite a bit.

Given when the chinese first created gunpowder (as a drug/elixer not a weapon) they could move gunpowder much earlier in the tree - I'm not saying that muskets should come very early - but they certainly could be moved up, away from grenadiers by quite a bit.
that's true
maybe gunpowder after mining? ;)
to be honest, the chinese already had gunpowder and paper. education is arguable, but not impossible.
Meaning that from an historical point of view, the tech tree isn't bad.
The bad thing is this useless unit, which could be less useless if they can effectively fight the cuirassiers.

Historically speaking, musketmen fit an anti-melee role, especially against swiss infantry ( they had a hard time with cavs, needed pikes for anti-cav. And sometimes Xbows were used to reinforce them as well ( a xbow have a bigger penetrating power than early muskets and had better precision and comparable reload time ). But making muskets an anti-melee unit would be a bad move...
About cuirassers... if the rest of the game can be used as a example, they will be anti-grenadier or anti musket units... (more inclined for anti grenadier... rock, paper,scissor )

cuirs better counter grens or grens will be the new cav i think.

i don't think we need muskets to counter cuirs. i don't mind them being a kind of utility unit, but i'd like them to be more respectable against fortified longbows. I just can't help feeling like cr maces do such a better job than combat muskets...

It's actually +2 happy faces (with monument) during a crucial period of the game. And you say it like it's no big deal, but it's actually HUGE, especially at higher levels. It makes a HUGE difference! That's 2 more cottages, 2 more farms, 2 more hills, 2 more specialists (assuming sufficient food), etc. Across multiple cities early on...HUGE!



You sound like you're arguing the Charismatic alone is over powered. Take Hannibal, if you can work 2 extra Financial cottages isn't that better than working 2 extra non-finanical cottages, Or how about if they create a PHI/CHA leader that's 2 extra philosophical specialists. I still don't feel that AGG/CHA is going to be way overpowered over any other CHA/??? combo, sure you get a free promotion, but so does PRO i.e. Churchill who gets 2 free promos.

To have a go at what Boudicca will be like I modded Brennus' traits, First start i was isolated :rolleyes: 2nd was pretty fun in the war years (cool when my first battle got my Gallic up to CR3 but that can happen with any CHA leader the only thing different was the free Combat 1) But when you're not warring you're effectively only Charismatic.

But onto Muskets, perhaps the could put in a more advanced type of musket like a flint-lock or match-lock unit available with replaceable parts, jsut a thought.

The tech race used to end at CS, now liberalism; it will probably be pushed back in some manner. Random personalities, no tech trading.

I think Musketmen should have a +50% bonus versus melee units sinse swordsmanship reached a high order by that period. It would make musketmen a more attractive option to counter other civs macemen for example.

I think Musketmen should have a +50% bonus versus melee units sinse swordsmanship reached a high order by that period. It would make musketmen a more attractive option to counter other civs macemen for example.

there's no point, you can use crossbowmen their cheaper and come earlier.

The only usefulness if the musketmen had that bonus would be they don't require a resource to build and you can draft them.

Musketmen ignore walls and castles, that's about the only thing going for them I find, so you can attack before you have got rid of all the defence bonus with cats. Apart from the -1 pop and +3 unhappy you get if you draft them of course. They need to have an extended lifespan in BtS for sure.

EDIT: Of course they can't get CR promos and you can't upgrade anything to muskets so they are doubly bad.

I'm not sure that Aggressive/Charismatic will be too powerful, it is surely a strong combo, but when fighting an AI, the extra strength promotion isn't that useful to melee and gunpowder units, aggressive alone can get a shock unit with a barracks, so most of the time you may get an extra 10% strength, which amounts to perhaps one fewer catapult sac.

Also, blitz is useless and unavailable to gunpowder units, and having a few units promoted with commando doesn't help much, since the AI likes to pick off stray units. The extra combat promotions can help somewhat in the field, but catapults close the gap.

If you guys think that free combat one combined with cheaper promotions isn't absolutely insane then you aren't the warmongering type or don't play at high skill levels. I was certain that it would be a forbidden combo like ind/phi. To have cr3 units very early with combat one and then upgrade them to maces and later grens you can have an extremely powerful army that can mop the floor with anyone in no time flat.

Not to mention that heroic epic and west point are opened faster meaning an even faster route to very powerful units being pumped out of your military city...

Not to mention that heroic epic and west point are opened faster meaning an even faster route to very powerful units being pumped out of your military city...

That applies to all Charismatic leaders right?

And for the record I'm a fairly competent Emperor level player. I like to Warmonger but I also like to build too so maybe I just don't get that excited over pure warmongering traits. CHA/AGG isn't going to be useful in every game, take an isolated start or distant first opponent, Whereas IND/PHI or FIN/ORG are going to be useful in pretty much every situation.

I'd be more excited if they put in CRE/PHI.

It does apply to all charismatic leaders, of course, but not all charismatic leaders are able to pump free combat one units from that powerful early military city!

Yes, it's true that cha-agg works best with a close first opponent, but they still work later in the game. Even when isolated I'll go to war later in the game. Admittedly, it wouldn't be the best when isolated, but most games you're not isolated.

Cre/Phi would be a phenomenal combo, I agree.

I just think that cha/agg is going to be extraordinarily powerful in the hands of warmongering human players. Too powerful in my estimation, but I guess time will tell...

It does apply to all charismatic leaders, of course, but not all charismatic leaders are able to pump free combat one units from that powerful early military city!

Yes, it's true that cha-agg works best with a close first opponent, but they still work later in the game. Even when isolated I'll go to war later in the game. Admittedly, it wouldn't be the best when isolated, but most games you're not isolated.

Cre/Phi would be a phenomenal combo, I agree.

I just think that cha/agg is going to be extraordinarily powerful in the hands of warmongering human players. Too powerful in my estimation, but I guess time will tell...

is cha/agg stronger than cha/pro or agg/pro or cha/imp?
I don't think so.
You were talking about CR3 units. the combat 1 free promotion isn't doing a lot for the CR3 units.
I mean you still need to be level 4, which you won't be faster (except the cheap barracks) with agg.

On the other side, imp/cha will have earlier GG, for more settling opportunities = earlier CR3 units.
And protective gunpowder units are just as good as aggressive gunpowder units IMHO.
So is agg/cha overpowered? not in my opinion.

Cha+Agg means you have a equal or stronger army than everyone else from the stone age.

10% stronger unit will up you winning percentage from 50% to 66.7% most of the time when fighing the same unit from other civs.

If you choose to use this army early and you could win 2/3 of the early battles, which give you more GGs as Instructors which means you have a even stronger army with those cheap promos as the game progress along.

When against another aggressive civ, It lets your units reach 3-4 promotions so much faster and with that your army will dominate everyone else.

Protective does not give you much when fighting in the open fields.

Cheap promotions apply to ALL unit types which means you can have a much more powerful unit mix, land, sea or air.

If 2 players are equally competent at war in a land map, a Cha+Agg civ will win most of the time.

Against AI, that combo is a rape from the start.

I think that is the reason they are gifting this combo to a civ with the weakest UU and UB combo.

is cha/agg stronger than cha/pro or agg/pro or cha/imp?
I don't think so.
You were talking about CR3 units. the combat 1 free promotion isn't doing a lot for the CR3 units.
I mean you still need to be level 4, which you won't be faster (except the cheap barracks) with agg.

On the other side, imp/cha will have earlier GG, for more settling opportunities = earlier CR3 units.
And protective gunpowder units are just as good as aggressive gunpowder units IMHO.
So is agg/cha overpowered? not in my opinion.

agg/cha is much, much stronger than those combos imho.

Cha+Agg means you have a equal or stronger army than everyone else from the stone age.

10% stronger unit will up you winning percentage from 50% to 66.7% most of the time when fighing the same unit from other civs.

If you choose to use this army early and you could win 2/3 of the early battles, which give you more GGs as Instructors which means you have a even stronger army with those cheap promos as the game progress along.

When against another aggressive civ, It lets your units reach 3-4 promotions so much faster and with that your army will dominate everyone else.

Protective does not give you much when fighting in the open fields.

Cheap promotions apply to ALL unit types which means you can have a much more powerful unit mix, land, sea or air.

If 2 players are equally competent at war in a land map, a Cha+Agg civ will win most of the time.

Against AI, that combo is a rape from the start.

I think that is the reason they are gifting this combo to a civ with the weakest UU and UB combo.

From a purely warmongering point of view, yes of course it will be the most powerful combo. But there is more to the game than just warmongering, you still have to keep up in tech, an unpromoted mace is still better than a combat V Axe, albeit more expensive.
In the couple of times I've played as Toku who has similar traits IMO I've found it quite a challenge to keep up in techs. The plus 1 happy will help with Boudicca, though it will still be a challenge.
Is there a Creative/Protective leader planned? That would throw a spanner in the works of AGG/CHA

It's easy to keep up in tech when you have the largest empire...

From a purely warmongering point of view, yes of course it will be the most powerful combo. But there is more to the game than just warmongering, you still have to keep up in tech, an unpromoted mace is still better than a combat V Axe, albeit more expensive.
In the couple of times I've played as Toku who has similar traits IMO I've found it quite a challenge to keep up in techs. The plus 1 happy will help with Boudicca, though it will still be a challenge.
Is there a Creative/Protective leader planned? That would throw a spanner in the works of AGG/CHA

Heard of the Merchant Economy???

Here's an example in one the ALCs, http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=5187457

Makes Warring A LOT less painful to the economy when you have 1000+ gold in the treasury.

Back to the musketman discussion, in history muskets were mainly used to counter knights/swordsman/macemen (ie heavily armored) units. Their main advantage was in that they were much cheaper and easier to train than longbowmen for defence, or the knight-type units for war. I think a way to extend their life might be to make them a bit cheaper to produce and maybe a small (~15%) vs. mounted/melee units. IMHO grens are a bit overpowered, and should be changed to represent the much more specialized units that they really were. Of course, they are a great niche unit to counter rifles, but I would think they should rcv. a penalty versus most other units...or maybe lower their strength and increase their % vs. rifles (and cavs, I think!) Don't blast me too hard tho, I am more of a history buff and not a great civ player (noble is still challenging!)