European Middle Ages Mod Resurrection
Version 0.74 for Civ4 Vanilla 1.61 Not recommended for Macintosh computers

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/61289/0.4_Foot_vs_Horse_done2.JPG

The European Middle Ages team proudly presents our mod focusing on the European Middle Ages, from approximately 500 to 1500 AD. Most aspects of the game have been changed or redone, including a new tech tree, a new civic system, new units, new promotions, new traits, new buildings, new wonders, new nations and leaders, and several new resources. There is also a highly recommended medieval music add-on, which definitely adds to the medieval feel.

This mod, along with being playable on random maps, is very usable as a kind of "umbrella" mod serving as the base for a whole range of historical scenarios. Currently included with the mod is a standard scenario with a map of Europe and the Near East (55 by 45) and another map of the same area, but larger, (80 by 64). Several scenario makers also have made scenarios for use with the mod, including Craig_Sutter's The Viking Age (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=177950) and The Age of Kings (http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=4179) and my own The Dark Ages (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=208734).

For this mod we have made available enough assets such as flags, civ leaders, and civilizations, so that every possible medieval scenario can be made.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/61289/Map_Large_0.45.JPG

Thanks to Craig_Sutter for extensive testing, the new GameSpeedInfos.XML, the entire naval unit system, his ideas, many city lists, the townhall fix. and many other things.
Thanks to Drtad for extensive testing, city lists, historical research, help with Armenian Great People, hosting in the past, finding new leaderheads, and a lot of general brainstorming among many other things.
Thanks to lshockley for putting together comprehensive lists for all of the Great People, along with advice on how to get the great people to be more logical in-game, and for doing basically the entire building and wonder system, and a lot of the buttons, along with help in other things.
Thanks to Broken_Hawk for many city lists, some leaderhead civilopedia entries, and many other things.
Thanks to Gordon Farrel for his buttons and many other things.
Thanks to Lecapenus dk for his unit art fixes.
Thank you to hr_oskar for working so hard on this mod.

And thanks to everyone who provided city lists and other forms of support.
If I forgot your name just send me a PM and I'll include you on the list.

0.4 removed after 1528 downloads.
0.45 removed after 962 downloads, or 2492 total.
0.5 removed after 1763 downloads, or 4255 total.
0.56 removed after 1627 downloads, or 5882 total.
0.65 removed after 868 downloads, or 6750 total.

Here is the list of civilizations on the Small and Large Europe maps:

England
France
Spain
Germany
Italy
Moors
Hungary
Poland
Vikings
Byzantines
Russia
Turkey
Egypt
Armenia
Tatars
Lithuania (Large map only)
Arabia (Large map only)


Many more civilizations are included in the mod for Play Now! games and scenarios.

Here is the tech tree as of version 0.74, along with an example of a leader.

Good to see the new dedicated threads. I've been pretty busy lately, and not contributing too much (I've yet to update my scenarios :( )... hopefully, this will spur me on.

:clap: :clap: :clap: Me too! Don't forget your map.

Hum. Why you miss Bulgaria. It was a great counterpart of Byzantine from 680 to 1400 AD. Their territory were on the bolkans, today's Romania and Serbia. Even one of the Budapest part - the Buda town(it was castle) were bulgarian.
They had great military for their time and captured Constantinopol around 750 AD. In the early middle ages their army defeat the Latin Empire knight Armies which made possible for the Byzantinians to recapture Constantinopol from the 4th Crusaide forces. And so on.

Bulgaria is included for scenarios, just not in the main scenario. As we are limited to 18 civs with vanilla Civ, certain choices were made. When/If we use Warlords or Beyond the Sword expansions (which allow for more than 18 Civs), others may be included in the main scenario.

I'm certain some of the scenarios that will be produced for this mod will include Bulgaria (I've made one that does, although it hasn't yet been updated to the new version of the mod).

The Bulgars led by Krum will be available to scenario makers. Look at the pedia entries. It is still in development.

Oh yea, what Craig said. :blush:

I'll make a note in the first post about additional civilizations.

I think the game may run smoother with more civs and bigger maps in BtS, if so I hope you consider expanding the scenario slightly.

I think the game may run smoother with more civs and bigger maps in BtS, if so I hope you consider expanding the scenario slightly.
Hopefully, there are so many great civs that have been overlooked. Must haves for a BTS version would be:

Shahdom of Khwarezm
Republic of Novgorod
Kingdom of Georgia
Zirid Emirate
Abbasid Caliphate

If they were to be added I have tons of pictures of what their UU's would be from Medieval 2 Total War. (especially Khwarezm)

Hopefully, there are so many great civs that have been overlooked. Must haves for a BTS version would be:

Shahdom of Khwarezm
Republic of Novgorod
Kingdom of Georgia
Zirid Emirate
Abbasid Caliphate

If they were to be added I have tons of pictures of what their UU's would be from Medieval 2 Total War. (especially Khwarezm)

:) :)

I have some suggestions but they may be over the top. I would suggest splitting up Italy, adding portugal, splitting up scandinavia into sweden and denmark, and replace arabia with the abbasids.

I love your suggestions Drtad but are you sure you would like to move that far east into transoxiana? You would have to add a persian civ between the abbasids and khwarezm probably the buwayhids or tahirids.

:) :)

I have some suggestions but they may be over the top. I would suggest splitting up Italy, adding portugal, splitting up scandinavia into sweden and denmark, and replace arabia with the abbasids.

I love your suggestions Drtad but are you sure you would like to move that far east into transoxiana? You would have to add a persian civ between the abbasids and khwarezm probably the buwayhids or tahirids.
Ahh, that's right. Maybe the Sassanids could be the Persian civ, and the Abbassids could be scrapped and just the Arabs put in Arabia (Mecca). I just think the Khwarezmians would be a very cool faction to add. As for Italy and Spain...

Italian factions:
Kingdom of Italy
Norman Kingdom of Sicily
Papacy?

Iberian factions:
Kingdom of Asturias OR Castile y Leon
Crown of Aragon OR Kingdom of Aragon OR County of Barcelona
Kingdom OR County of Portugal

I have been thinking that maybe the actual names of the factions could be done the way MTW (the original) has it, by ethnicity. For example, instead of "Byzantine Empire" or "Kingdom of Armenia", you would have "The Byzantines" and "The Armenians". This would be better since throughout the period each civ changed titles a lot. (County of Portugal turned into Kingdom, etc.)

For italy: the italian city states and sicily would be nice.

For iberia you can choose between: portugal, cordoba, castile, leon, or aragon. I won't include navarre because they were too small and weak.

I agree that moving the map to include khwarazm would be interesting, you would be splitting focus and leave less open spots for more european civs and plus my mod wil be doing that...

Another suggestion I would like to add would be to change the arab UU to something other than the daylami. The daylamis were esoteric mercenaries not widely used and in fact I think they're use ended with the sassanids. The arabs in this area more widely used ghulams, bedouins, mamluks of various backgrounds. Ansar warriors are also a good choice.

Adding the sassanids would not be a good idea because they were finished by the 7th century and do not paint an accurate picture of "medieval" persia. There wasn't really a persian civ to my liking during this time because either they were turks whose capitals were outside persia or muslims of some kind who ruled from baghdad. The next persian civ after the sassanids would be the safavids who actually originated out of azerbaijan and they didn't arrive until the late 1500's.:sad: To my knowledge the saffarids of sistan would make the best persian civ or even the ilkhans who ruled all of greater persia from their assorted capitals by tabriz.

The Daylami is and has always been the (Sassanid) Persian UU. I personally think that it would be difficult to add any new civs and keep the map balanced. Dividing Italy between the states and Sicily would leave both very weak (Sicily is not anywhere near large enough to hold a civilization). Dividing Spain would provide a similar problem.

Although Khwarezm would be an interesting addition, I don't know if the map should expand that far eastwards. Novgorod could be another interesting choice that might be more possible.

The Daylami is and has always been the (Sassanid) Persian UU. I personally think that it would be difficult to add any new civs and keep the map balanced. Dividing Italy between the states and Sicily would leave both very weak (Sicily is not anywhere near large enough to hold a civilization). Dividing Spain would provide a similar problem.

Although Khwarezm would be an interesting addition, I don't know if the map should expand that far eastwards. Novgorod could be another interesting choice that might be more possible.
The Kingdom of Sicily held much more than just Sicily. They held all of Southern Italy and North African trade cities after they conquered them from the Zirids. What could be done is that regions such as Italy couldbe made more fertile and resource rich but divided between the Siculo-Normans in the South and the Kingdom of Italy in the North. Spain could also be increased in richness to alleviate the problem of having smaller civs.

On the other hand, something that could be done is all tech costs could be reduced and more civs added to split the ahistorical conglomerations that are present (Spain, Italy, France, Germany...). France (huge and overlypowerful currently already) could be split between the Kingdom of France based in Paris, the County of Toulouse based at Toulouse, and Aquitane based in Bordeaux (I think). The British Isles could be split between Ireland based at Dubh Lin, Scotland at Edinburgh and England at London (Wales maybe, but they are kinda way too small). Spain likewise could be divided with the County/Kingdom of Portugal, the Kingdom of Asturias (or Castile y Leon), and the Catalans (Aragon, Barcelona). Germany could remain as is. They might be at an advantage in that they are united, but they are put at a disadvantage by the fact that they are right in the center of Europe and could get ganged up on pretty easily.

About Khwarezm, they were very important to the politics of the Caucasus as well as Anatolia and that Eastern pressure should be represented to some degree. And they would be better for Persia than the Sassanids, but all you would need to do is extend the map to the other side of the Caspian. The far Eastern frontiers of Khwarezm aren't imperative to the mod.

I would suggest changing spain to the kingdom of castile as they were the most powerful medieval kingdom of iberia and the moors to the berbers because the moors also represents the muslims of al-andalus which I think moors are more representative of. Berbers would be a better catch all civ for north africa as they were the actual people who lived in north africa and most the north african dynaties were berber or another african including the almoravids, almohads, marinids, hafsids, zirids,zayyanids, and others.

i would suggest more than one period in a post. your sentences are longer than tolkiens in the Silmarillion.

Are we discussing the scenario that comes with the mod, here, or the 18 civilizations basic to the mod? All these civs that are being mentioned in this series of posts seem fine in any one particular scenario, but there's no way they can all be accommodated in the prime 18, in my humble opinion.

For scenarios, if for instance, one wants to include Denmark and Norway instead of the Viking civ, this is easily done by including 2 viking civs in the mod, and using WBS file editing to change to appropriate leader and Civ names. They would have the same UU, but even the leader head and traits could differ with creative juggling within the WBS. Similarly, multiple Arab/Islamic/Moorish/Rus/ etc civs could be created.

Anyhow, I just want to note that there are very many civs included in the mod that do not come out in the basic included scenario, but provide very valuable resources for scenario construction, and that may likely provide the basis for adding many of the civs being mentioned in the latest posts in this thread.

The full list of civilizations is:

1. England
2. Saxony (Anglo-Saxony)
3. Welsh
4. Normans
5. Scottish
6. Ireland
7. France (Franks)
8. Germany (German Kingdoms)
9. Goths
10. Crusaders (Teutonic Knights, Templars, Hospitallers)
11. Spain
12. Portugal
13. Italian States (General Italian Kingdoms)
14. Venice
15. Papal States
16. Vikings (Scandinavian Kingdoms)
17. Lithuania
18. Poland
19. Russia (Kievan Rus)
20. Hungary
21. Byzantines (East Roman Empire)
22. Roman Empire
23. Slavs
24. Armenia
25. Arabia
26. Egypt
27. Turks
28. Moors (Berbers)
29. Persia
30. Tatars
31. Mongols
32. Bulgars
33. Khazars

Are we discussing the scenario that comes with the mod, here, or the 18 civilizations basic to the mod? All these civs that are being mentioned in this series of posts seem fine in any one particular scenario, but there's no way they can all be accommodated in the prime 18, in my humble opinion.
Yes, but I am talking about BTS. It will allow us to break up those ahistorical conglomerations like "Italians", "France" and "Spanish Kingdoms" and would make the scenario a bit more historical.

The full list of civilizations is:

1. England
2. Saxony (Anglo-Saxony)
3. Welsh
4. Normans
5. Scottish
6. Ireland
7. France (Franks)
8. Germany (German Kingdoms)
9. Goths
10. Crusaders (Teutonic Knights, Templars, Hospitallers)
11. Spain
12. Portugal
13. Italian States (General Italian Kingdoms)
14. Venice
15. Papal States
16. Vikings (Scandinavian Kingdoms)
17. Lithuania
18. Poland
19. Russia (Kievan Rus)
20. Hungary
21. Byzantines (East Roman Empire)
22. Roman Empire
23. Slavs
24. Armenia
25. Arabia
26. Egypt
27. Turks
28. Moors (Berbers)
29. Persia
30. Tatars
31. Mongols
32. Bulgars
33. Khazars

My processor just passed out when it saw the number of civs. Can we shave the list down by 7-10 civs?

A lot of those civilizations aren't currently included in any scenarios. Only 17 are included in the main scenario. The rest are for scenario makers. Speaking of scenarios, Craig_Sutter, do you plan on updating The Viking Age?

Yes, I am... sorry but I've been quite busy lately. It will, however, get done. Likely not for a couple of weeks though.

those are the civs provided for the game! ony some of the civs are in the main scenerio. the rest enable you to make you own scenerio. eg: norman conquest of england.

Craig_Sutter, I'd like to release the new version Friday (I'll have to see how that goes...) so you might want to just wait until then.

That's well within my timeline :).

I've renamed my Europe (112x96) map to the much more grandiose "The Age of Kings" if you are updating the first thread at some time.

I dont know if anyone relizes this but it very hard to make an medieval map because alot of civilizations cant exist at the same time im still trying to make one.you need to deside what era in middle ages to use.

Head Serf used civs that were around for most of the scenerio timeline. Yes, france didnt exist in the year 500, but could you make a midievel scenerio without them? Islam was founded in I belive 620 AD, but it is founded here at 500 AD so that arabia would be islam. if you dont like the choices than dont play.

We have to understand that the european middle ages are the hardest point in time to accurately depict in a mod.

If you are making a map/scenario you choose which of those civs you want to include. For example, when I made my Viking Scenario, I used the civs appropriate to the place and time... Normans, Germans, Vikings (4 different ones), Saxons/Anglo-Saxons (about 4 different ones), various Welsh/British, Irish, etc. The mod gives some 30 different civs to choose from, but you choose the ones specific to your scenario.

If you are playing the basic mod with generated maps, then there are 18 civs which are not optional in that case... the first post, I believe, cites them. However, for scenarios there are a wide range of possibilities.

That being said, there is some suspension of believe that is necessary in many cases. In my Viking Scenario, which is just based in Western Europe, many of the wonders are not appropriate... with BTS's mod component ability, I may be able to address this at some point. Similarly for the religions... I use Orthodoxy to represent Celtic Catholicism, for instance, and have put a little island in the NE corner of my map in the Atlantic that is a peak surrounded barb city into which I placed an Islamic/Jewish Holy City (the generation of Holy Cities is Hard-coded so I needed this work around to do it.)

Anyhow, if you are making a scenario/map, there are many ways the map/scenarion file can be manipulated to let you simulate almost any period during the middle ages. Your question leads me to believe that you may be unfamiliar with how scenarios and maps relate to the XML files so that the tools this mod provides for scenario creation can be best used.

If you give us information on the scenario you wish to create, perhaps we could advise you on how this might be done using the tools the mod provides.

I'd advise a seperate thread for this, though.

Prime 900... just to clarify.

The Civilizationinfo.XML file allows for up to 18 civilizations to be basic to a mod. These will be the ones generated by a random map, for instance. These are listed in the first thread in this post.

However, the file also allows for the addition of any number of other civilizations. These will not generate on random maps but can be accessed by scenario maps so any of these civs can be playable in such scenarios. The EMA mod has included about 30 others. I thought they were listed somewhere in this thread, but perhaps they are listed in the FAQ thread... if you wish to know which ones are included in particular, you can open the CivilizationInfo.xml file and scroll down to look at each... the first 18 are the mod basic civs, and the others are for scenario makers. They include quite a diversity of civs including goths/west romans/mongols/franks/venice/irish/scotland and many others.

Almost any scenario you can envision in this age can be simulated in some way using these civs in this file.

All of these civilizations are available to scenario makers, and all except the Crusaders, Papal States, and Rome can be played in random maps.

1. England
2. Saxony
3. Welsh
4. Normans
5. Scottish
6. Ireland
7. France
8. Germany
9. Goths
10. Crusaders
11. Spain
12. Portugal
13. Italian States
14. Venice
15. Papal States
16. Vikings
17. Lithuania
18. Poland
19. Russia
20. Hungary
21. Byzantines
22. Roman Empire
23. Slavs
24. Armenia
25. Arabia
26. Egypt
27. Turks
28. Moors
29. Persia
30. Tatars
31. Mongols
32. Bulgars
33. Khazars

I haven't played this mod with random maps... are you saying that almost any of the above civs may come out in a randomly generated game. I had always thought that a particular 18 were available, and the others needed to be placed in scenarios. Or are the others merely selectable opponents if the person playing the map wishes to choose them in a random map game?

I'll have to start up a few generated games and see how that works.

I haven't played this mod with random maps... are you saying that almost any of the above civs may come out in a randomly generated game. I had always thought that a particular 18 were available, and the others needed to be placed in scenarios. Or are the others merely selectable opponents if the person playing the map wishes to choose them in a random map game?

I'll have to start up a few generated games and see how that works.

If the civs have 0 in the ai playable and playable tags than no they will not show up in a random game those tags have to be overidden in the wbs file to be playable.

The new version is up, 0.74.

Cool. what are the changes?

Hey guys - just want to say, I love this mod! The new .74 runs better than ever! Just one thing - on the small map, it'd probably be advisable to give the area where modern day Georgia is a wine resource or two. Historically, that valley has been a major producer of wine, and iirc has been so for many thousands of years.

I must protest! what kind of European Medieval Mod, doesn't include a Serbia! thats just playing wrong! at one point Serbia was the Strongest state at the balkans! under the rule of Car Dusan.

I request for Serbia to be included :(

How long was their reign of power? the map is plenty crowded there and hungary will probaly take them over. and if you dont like it, make a scenrio with serbia.

The empire was a reasonable sized power only 25 years, at which point it was eaten up by the Turks.

Sorry.

Sorry for not replying I've been on short holiday.

Well first of all, Serbia was only an empire for 25 years. But she existed even in 9th century trough Serbian States of Raska, Zeta, Travunia, Pagania and Zahumlje. England didn't exist too for a long time, but you probably made it exist as it existed trough a smaller states!

And I thought the fun of scenarios like this one is to play with smaller Civs against bigger Civs, as in a challenge??? cause where is the point if you pick a Germany for example and you have all those towns. It ruins to fun. And Balkan wouldn't be fun the play if it only has Bulgaria, Hungary, Byzantium and later Ottomans. It needs to be messed up as it really was! and still is!

Well maybe thats just me...

Sorry for not replying I've been on short holiday.

Well first of all, Serbia was only an empire for 25 years. But she existed even in 9th century trough Serbian States of Raska, Zeta, Travunia, Pagania and Zahumlje. England didn't exist too for a long time, but you probably made it exist as it existed trough a smaller states!

And I thought the fun of scenarios like this one is to play with smaller Civs against bigger Civs, as in a challenge??? cause where is the point if you pick a Germany for example and you have all those towns. It ruins to fun. And Balkan wouldn't be fun the play if it only has Bulgaria, Hungary, Byzantium and later Ottomans. It needs to be messed up as it really was! and still is!

Well maybe thats just me...

Shqype is doing a eastern european battles mod so...

I know bosnia and serbia are included, maybe if you bother him he will finish it faster.:p

Okay, you are as bad as THElastone36 bothering people about poland. to start with, in the scenrio that comes with the game, you start out with no cities. second, i know of many battles with england, i dont know a single battle involving serbia except mabye one against the ottomans near or after the mods time limit. so sorry, no serbia, they will be taken over by the hungarians, and you really dont want to face a monty with horse archer that become 12 strenght against mele.

That's a little harsh... he only made two posts.

I would argue against Serbia as well, for much the same reasons. However, that being said, it would be relatively easy to make a scenario with them, should you wish. For example, one could take the Slav civ, which is included, rename them Serbian Empire in a scenario WBS file, and alter other aspects of the WBS file to conform to leader and national names. It may not be an exact match, but may well do for game purposes. There are over 30 civs included in the mod, and at least one should be close enough to a Serbian civ to make a good standin.

Yeah, I would understand if I was a newbie...
well I can understand the stress... :) but still!

And @danrell will do an 11 Serbian (medieval) Units when he finishes his middle-eastern ones. That covers the unit lines!

I'm Civ3 veteran, and in Civ3 MEM2 (Medieval European Mod 2) that has 31 Civs has Serbia. Without any of my interference! :)

I apoligize Partizanac, it is just that i am really annoyed at the people who post here saying that a certiant civ should be included and gives a reason for it being in even though the mod leader says no. Sorry if you got insulted, i was trying to stave off an argument.

I said I understand the stress :D no worries man! ;)

And now that the "Slavs" are mentioned, I think that "Slav" state didn't exist in Middle Ages, Slavs are the people like Germans, Latins etc.

So where did you put that "Slav" state?

It isn't anywhere in a current scenario... it's optional for those who are doing scenarios. The way it works is that there are some 30 or so civs in the modpack, and scenario makers pick and choose those they wish to use. So a the Slav civ could be used by a scenario maker who, for instance, wants to have Serbs in his scenario and finds that a Serb civ has not been added to the mod. Or one may wish to use a generic Slav civ rather than a particular one if one is creating a scenario where cultures clash rather than particular nation states... for instance, in a dark age Britain scenario, one could use the included Saxon Civ to represent each of the Anglo-saxon kingdoms seperately, juggling leaderheads from other civs in the mod to individualize the kingdoms... similarly for the native Britons and Welsh. In the first case, they are all Anglo-Saxons and use that overarching civ for its artwork and its UUs, but they've been tailored individually in the WBS. The Slav civ can do likewise for any number of non-included civs. In my Viking Age scenario, I've 4 viking civs... they share the same UU, however, I've adjusted the leaders to reflect individual differences amongst the kingdoms. Like the Slavs, there was never a Viking kingdom, but it is useful for scenario design to have an overarching civ characteristic of its type for flexibility.

The real problem is the 18 civ limit, and going over that makes the game unbelievably slow for many. Otherwise I say cram as many civs into the game sas you can. :)

MEM is awesome,the most detailed and accurate mod I have seen only its on civ III and that means that it loses some benefits from being on civ IV but instead you gain a larger civ number.

I'd really love to go to 24 once we get into BTS. In my map scenarios I'm always that crucial 2 or 3 available civs short of what I really want.

I'll definitely jump to an either 24 or 32 dll when we go to BTS, however, as long as we use vanilla, we're going to have the civ limit.

Head serf, is better AI useable here or not because some things have been changed?

I'll definitely jump to an either 24 or 32 dll when we go to BTS, however, as long as we use vanilla, we're going to have the civ limit.

I've created a 26 civ dll if you want to use that. Don't leave me out of the new civ addition debate.:p

okay, what civs to add? i have no clue.

okay, what civs to add? i have no clue.
I am still in favor of making Italy divided between the Kingdom of Italy in the north and the Kingdom of Sicily (which also should have control of Mezzogiorno) in the south. Also, Iberia should be further divided with the additions of either Aragon or Portugal. Another addition which could hurt French and German power and thus balance out those areas would be Bohemia, Flanders, or Burgundy. I think that to weaken Poland a Lithuania, the Republic of Novgorod could be a good choice. Just brainstorming.;)

nah, maybe a civ between russia and tatars to keep russia from being to big but i cant think of any else.

HELLO! :D Serbia!!? shesh!

I would say 2-3 in spain, 2 in france, 2-3 in italy,1 germany, poland, hungary, serbia, bulgaria, byzantines, turks, abbasids, fatimids, 1 in ifriqiya, england, denmark, kiev, tatar, lithuania, some others...

Thats what about 25?

I would say like this:

1. Spain
2. Cordova
3. France
4. Burgundy
5. Italy
6. Naples
7. Germany
8. Poland
9. Hungary
10. Serbia
11. Bulgaria
12. Byzantium
13. Ottomans
14. Abbasids
15. Fatmids
16. England
17. Ireland
18. Denmark
19. Kiev
20. Tatars
21. Lithuania
22. Bohemia
23. Novgorod
24. Berbers
25. Sweden
26. Moscovy

Head Serf only has 17 in the included scenario as is. I don't think the number of civs available to the scenario is the problem, but the fact that the mod included map is not large enough for so many civs. I'm not saying we need a bigger map, either... I think it should be up to scenario makers to use the mod provided materials in a creative manner to make the scenarios they wish. I'll likely add some of these civs to my Age of Kings scenario if we go to a 24 or 32 civ mod... I'm stuck at 18 right now.

I think that if we go to BTS someone can definitely create a scenario with the above mentioned civilizations, but it does not necessarily have to be the one included with the mod. For one, the map would likely need to be increased in size.

As well, we would not need to add any new civs to the mod to do this... some civs could use the same Civ UUs and Leaders. Sweden and Denmark could both use the UU and Civ characteristics of the Viking Kingdoms Civ (an additional Viking leaderhead added to the mod would help vary that aspect).Kiev, Moscovy and Novgorod could share the Rus UUs in a similar way. Others could be done similarly as well.

I think adding a second leaderhead to each civ would be helpful, actually. Because the current traits were selected, in part, to make certain every combination was available in at least one leader, some odd choices came about... a Seafarer Otto, for instance. A second leaderhead for each civ would allow a more historical redistribution of leader traits to civilizations, and allow a better choice of leaders in scenarios. For instance, in my scenario I wanted Olaf of Norway to be Pious Seafarer... unfortunately, the only one with that trait was Theodora, so I had to select a different leader to lead my Norwegians. I think it ended up being the Italian leaderhead... Financial Seafarer.

As I've repeatedly said, don't get the mod and the scenario mixed up. The mod has over 30 civs that can simulate almost any civilization in the middle ages... someone mentioned the Kingdom of Sicily/Naples. Weren't those just the Normans? Well, if so, I would use that Civ and rename the leader Robert (or Roger... don't remember) and the civ, the Kingdom of Sicily and Naples, in the WBS, and use it as is. It doesn't even matter if the are two Norman Civs in the scenario... simply pick a different Leaderhead if you wish, or live with using the same one.

Anyhow, this all started when I mentioned I wanted more civ slots if we went to BTS. I don't need more civs, just the slots... I'd like another Viking in my BTS mod, and to add a couple of Irish Civs and perhaps the Picts and Visigoths. Note, none of this will require new civs be added to the basic mod... I'll use the Scots for the Picts. And have multiple occurances of their father Civs for the various Viking and Irish kingdoms.

Finally, since this all hinges on the mod being adapted for BTS, it should be noted that BTS has the ability to combine mods... some sort of modularity. I'm uncertain how it works, but if there is the ability to combine mods, then people could, on their own initiative, make modules that would combine with the EMA mod to tailor it to their specific needs. For instance, when I get BTS and we move to it, I intend to develop a mod component for my Viking age scenario... largely to make the Wonders and Religions conform to the geographical location of the mod (that being NW Europe). Others could do likewise, if for instance, there is a civ they figure ought to have been included in EMA but wasn't. A mini-module to go with EMA containing the altered files and added graphics for a particular civ ought not to be too difficult with BTS's modularity.

There... a bit long-winded, but so it goes.

Hello everyone,


this looks like a great mode! I have always liked the middle ages and this looks good!

Question: Is there an accompaning scenario to play for control of Britain and Ireland between 500 and 1000 on a British Isles map?

Civs of corse would be the various Brythonic (Welsh) kingdoms, Irish (Scots), Saxon, Angle, Pictish, ect ect.

An additional scenario could be a King Arthur scenario.

I am not much of a moder at all, all I can offer is some historical research and encouragement :)

OHH! Another great scenario would be a close up map of the Middle East to play a scenarios based on the various crusades (I, II, III, IV).


David Llewellyn

Drachenfyre, Craig Sutter has a Viking Age Scenario, Head Serf has a Dark Ages Scenario, and is coming out with a Early High Middle Ages Scenario. But I dont know of and scenerio exactly like what you are looking for. But if you can really want to see one, make it, and that may prompt other people to finish or make scenerios. I was working on a scenario about France, but it is on hold while I am trying to figure out XML.

Head Serf, should there be a thread for ideas and suggestions? I have this one idea. Dissalow certiant nations from building vassals and other nations from building horse archer? for example, i dont remember france or germany using horse archers. likewise, i dont really know of tatars using vassals. i figured out how to do this in civinfos file. Should i go ahead with thsi?

This was discussed briefly a while ago... I think the idea was to replace the horse archers and vassals with alternative UUs. There's a thread on 2nd UUs I believe. I think the debate is still out on exactly how to handle this, and Head Serf's not put in his 2 cents worth.

I'm all for adding a 2nd UU to each civ, but not for the purpose of solving this perceived problem. I'd rather we follow your suggestion of totally disallowing certain units from being build by certain civs, and the UUs be handled as a seperate issue.

Anyhow, I think our previous discussion came to no definite conclusion on what to do... I'm curious as to what Head Serf thinks as he's the gatekeeper on this as far as I'm concerned.

@Drachenfyre : The Viking Age would be perfect for the time period you want.

@Ajidica : If you have an idea, feel free to make a new topic about it. It's much easier to discuss an idea when it's not mixed in with others (hence why I don't really want a ideas discussion thread).

About your idea, I liked someone's idea (don't remember who) of giving the nations like Germany and France Irregular Cavalry, basically a slightly weaker or more expensive horse archer, and doing vice-versa with the countries with horse archers, giving them a weaker or more expensive vassal. I think both the vassal and horse archer units hold important strategic parts and shouldn't be removed in their entirety for historical accuracy, but should be changed to work as a compromise between playability and realism.

okay, ill try and start implemanting that. any ideas for stats?

I'd give the European Horse Archer -1 strength and the Asian Vassal +25% cost.

Thanks, ill implement that. Name for Asian vassal?

I think that was my idea. You'd have to change the horse archer graphic so it represented a fast moving Irregular Cavalry unit as opposed to one armed with distance weapons. The vassal unit could be named Noble Cavalry or Noble Horse for those civs that are deemed not to have Vassal units. I'd have to go back to the other thread... the second UU one I believe, to look at the names I'd selected... anyhow, the graphics for this would be less armoured than the vassal.

I'm going to be away on vacation back home to Canada for 3 weeks. Coming back with BTS, though.

Anyhow, will be watching this site, but I'll likely not contribute much in the next while.