Many people by now have read the news that in BTS, the Space Race Victory is going back to the old CivII style game, as opposed to the CivIII and IV w/o BTS style that has been prevelent for a while. Go ahead and vote first, then post your opinions.

I personally support the change. CivII made it interesting-you could launch with a very incomplete spaceship first, but you were likely to lose-likewise, you could spend too much time building your ship and not launch quick enough to ensure victory. Of course, I still know people who win with Space Race in 2049, which would become impossible with the new system. However, the strategy changes would be well worth it, and may make the space race interesting again.

I've got no problem with the reversion, Space race isn't my favourite victory type anyway. But in my Civ 2 days (when I could actually beat the hardest difficulty) I always built the meanest space ship around, if the AI got around to building one they always built the bare minimum and would take (from memory) 50 years to get there, my badass Millenium Falcon-esque Rocket would get there in 19.2.

if the AI got around to building one they always built the bare minimum and would take (from memory) 50 years to get there, my badass Millenium Falcon-esque Rocket would get there in 19.2.

Yeah. Hope they make the AIs a little bit better at that, especially considering space race is the only victory they jump at. ;)

I support this 100%

I'm a Civ noobie, Civ 4 and Warlords are my first experiance with the series, but I think this is really quite neat and much more fun than just building parts with workshopped cities.

Yeah. Hope they make the AIs a little bit better at that, especially considering space race is the only victory they jump at. ;)

Not anymore. Haven't you read the announcement? ;)

I LOVE the reversion to the old way. I'll never forget the first game I played, when I built my spaceship and it arrived on Alpha Centauri... the theme from 2001: A Space Odyssey played, much to my surprise, and it was a good moment.

I support the change, alot of fun to launch a smaller ship then go and stop the AI's launching

I can remmber switching to fanaticism and going howizter/tank happy on all my neighbours

Makes the space race sound like a much more fun victory than it is now. Could there be any chance of the ship crashing into something or getting destroyed, or just not making it to Alpha Centauri.

I hope they increase the hammers required for the space ship parts, that will make the new (old) way more meaningful.

I also hope they even allow some ways to destroy the spaceship or its parts.

good change imo, that's just how the space race should be. not just build every component around but also actually land on alpha centauri. it's been that way in older civs, never fully understand why they changed that in the first place.

I also hope they change the apollo program to a space program, which to me makes much more sense.

good change imo, that's just how the space race should be. not just build every component around but also actually land on alpha centauri. it's been that way in older civs, never fully understand why they changed that in the first place.

Exactly.
Is my spaceship engine faster than yours? we both developed Fusion but how do you know, after all mine could have a sequential turbo on it.

Hopefully they will have it that taking an opponents capital will destroy a spaceship in mid-flight, just like in Civ 2.

Certainly going to love this! Thanks for the responses. I agree, it is a race to colonize, not just to build.

When CivIII removed it, I got used to it, but missed the old ways. Having to decide whether I needed another thruster or not was awesome.

For the few who are undecided and unfamiliar with the old format, see this screenshot. This is a spaceship from Civ 2.
http://www.civfanatics.com/gallery/showimage.php?i=410&catid=16

What is not shown is the "chance of success," a percentage shown before you launch which is kind of like what Da V Man was saying about it crashing before it gets there. If you didn't build it "to code" it might not make it!

I'm undercided. I'm glad that the Space Race is getting improved, but I would have prefered something a bit more inventive, perhaps like having to try and make your peole survive on Alpha Centauri for a set amount of time.

The new way certainly sounds more fun to me. Makes sense as well.

But I don't agree with Virulent that destroying the space base on the home planet should destroy the ship, unless perhaps it was really poorly made. Any good ship would be able to complete its mission to Alpha Centauri without direction from back home.

I'm undercided. I'm glad that the Space Race is getting improved, but I would have prefered something a bit more inventive, perhaps like having to try and make your peole survive on Alpha Centauri for a set amount of time.

That's covered by all the Life Support stuff you build. And the Etertainment Module, too.

Unless, of course, you're talking about your citizens fending off Mind Worms and rival factions as they attempt to connect to the soul of the planet and achieve Transcendence, but that's a different game. One that I hope gets a remake.

I like that it is going back.

However, with the new random events this could result in some seriously ticked off threads come July.

I don't think I will ever have the random event generator turned on.

I'm glad they put this feature back in. It's not a very important feature in my book (hence I could live with Civ3 removing it), and many of my games are decided before a space race could even emerge, but it's nice to have the option. I have very fond memories of the couple of games where space ship design and speed actually *did* matter.

I really like the make up of Space Race. I just hope that AI is really capable to achieve a Space Race which should require a lot more micromanagement.

I have to play first.

I'm undercided. I'm glad that the Space Race is getting improved, but I would have prefered something a bit more inventive, perhaps like having to try and make your peole survive on Alpha Centauri for a set amount of time.

True but then it would be a game that doesn't end in a way. Although if you spaceship just landed as your empire on Earth crumbles have you really won? I'd rather rule Earth than be the leader of a few thousand ex-Pat Earthlings.

A couple of thoughts on "Trade offs" for the space Race
1. Time to get there
2. Time to build
3. Chance of Success
4. Point bonus (so that you could build one Colony module and get X points, or build 2 Colony modules and get 3 X points, or 3 and get 6 X points, etc....allowing a Space Race to compete with Domination for Point Value.)

I'm guessing the 16 people who voted No or Undecided as of right now have never played the previous Civ games. All I can tell you is that when you finally see how it works in BtS, you'll agree the new (old) way is infinitely better. Trust me. ;)

Heh yeah, I too was a bit dissapointed when they simplified it in Civ 3. I remember in Civ 1 an opponent launching first and me beating it with a corellian corvette style ship with small payload and huge bank of thrusters.

I'm glad for the change, though I'll still probably turn space race off if they don't bring back the ability to destroy a ship by taking the capital. Right now the race is BROKEN. It's the only "victory" I know where you get huge benefits right down the line, build your wonders AFTER everything else is done, and then get an instant, nearly unstoppable, win. If it wasn't so cheap I'd go for it every time. ROFL

Lets Compare it to the cultural win . . .

In a cultural win you spend a ton of time early on building wonders in your three best production/growth cities. You invest your great artists on them, and in the process you don't spread out your culture efficiently around your empire . . . And you tend to concentrate wonders there making them great targets for conquest while stopping them from producing other things for long periods of time. Plus you have to spend the whole game guarding them. If one is taken for any significant length of time you might as well throw in the towel because the culture resets to zero for you.

In the Space Race however . . .

You spend the whole game concentrating on Science which allows you to grab religions, get extra benefits (extra tech, great artist, etc . . . ) for discovering things first, and get a head start on wonders. Not to mention that a large tech lead means that your small (for efficiency) civilization can beat off larger less advanced enemies and can easilly take over some other civilization later (once you've pulled out a few great scientists and built a few nice wonders).

Then you have to build some wonders at the end of the game. Since you expanded outward in the middle ages with tanks you've got some nice industrialized cities to do this, with great production, and a decent culture. In fact since you spread out your wonders and great people you've probably got more OVERALL culture than the guy going for a cultural win too. Plus these are all "Minor Wonders" so you don't have to worry about someone beating you to the best "Space ship engine", though if your far in the lead tech-wise you've probably got plenty of time anyhow.

And in Vanilla civ IV . . . there is no way to destroy or steal the pieces you've built. We can raze your high production cities if we catch up with you, but we can't set you back to zero by taking one of your cities. We just have to hope you don't get that last piece before we destroy you. Once you do . . . intant win.

It's no wonder the computer loves it. There are no serious drawbacks. The only difference between going for a "Space win" and just trying to rack up all the best stuff before your opponent does is that you expand much slower in the early game, and build some extra "wonders" in the late game.

Of course most human players prefer war, but you don't even HAVE to stop your wars, after all if you really are doing the best in science your war machine is pretty hard to handle as well so mid-game you can conquer at will from a position of strength. Once your great scientists, scientists, and academies have freed up enough loot to pay for massive troop mobilization anyhow.

It's a no brainer. Your could call it "The Lame Duck Win".

It's the only "victory" I know where you get huge benefits right down the line, build your wonders AFTER everything else is done, and then get an instant, nearly unstoppable, win. If it wasn't so cheap I'd go for it every time. ROFL

Yeah, you certainly don't get any benefits while going for a domination win, from conquering all of your neighbors. :lol: :lol:

Yeah, you certainly don't get any benefits while going for a domination win, from conquering all of your neighbors. :lol: :lol:

Personally I'm not a warmonger, but when you honestly think about it once you have a decent amount of resources and cities you really DON'T get a ton of real benefits from conquering. Though it's certainly fun sometimes.

You gain a lot of useless people who are annoyed that your at war with their "mother country" a lot of cities you have to pay maintanence cost on, a lot of territory to manage and defend, and often as not lousy relations with the other players.

Are there benefits? Sure are. Conquering the cities closest to you and managing them well gives you a larger base to generate a good economy and science rating, and they can be set to build money or science. But getting those benefits without the penalties takes a lot more skill than the space race. You've got to manage a lot more cities and gain a lot more problems to go with your benefits.

In the end your better off if you play a balanced game. Yes you can go to state property (eventually) and start rolling over everything, but it sounds like SP is going to be nerfed by corporations in BTS.

Compared to the science victory there are no real benefits at all. In science you MAY conquer your closest neighbors if you want, but you'll still be able to run whatever civic seems best at the time, and now you'll now be able to use corporations to slingshot your economy ahead to boot.

Plus domination is really pathetically easy on a small map, but gets almost impossible on the largest maps. Have you ever tried for it on Ghengis Kai's huge world map? I did once. LOL.

Like I said it can be a lot of fun, but I'm not sure it's worth the effort. Which is probably why the biggest maps aren't supported by firaxis. Even on huge it's often more of a pain than it's worth to get domination, might as well just raze the cities and go for conquest.

Science is king, which is one reason I'm glad it's getting changed to be harder. I'm also expecting espionage to be REALLY good, since it lowers your science rate.

Its definately back to the way it should be. I mean if someone is being stupid and making a big metal flying statue, I think my war elephants should have something to say about that. And no matter what you may think war elephants are never obsolete.

I think in the end, a close space race vs. the AI will be more interesting by making the ship components variable, but overall this is one of the cheapest selling points of BTS. A true space-race should include multiple possible progressions into space---Sputnik, Apollo, Shuttle, La Grange, Moon, in my opinion.

Point taken but even fortified muskeman backed by pikeman pretty much make elephants obsolete. Nuking spaceship component cities should ensure all the other civs get to stay behind with you on a martian-like planet called Earth :scan:

I really like the make up of Space Race. I just hope that AI is really capable to achieve a Space Race which should require a lot more micromanagement.

Its definately back to the way it should be. I mean if someone is being stupid and making a big metal flying statue, I think my war elephants should have something to say about that. And no matter what you may think war elephants are never obsolete.

I think in the end, a close space race vs. the AI will be more interesting by making the ship components variable, but overall this is one of the cheapest selling points of BTS. A true space-race should include multiple possible progressions into space---Sputnik, Apollo, Shuttle, La Grange, Moon, in my opinion.

A while back I saw new concept art for several space-launch base type buildings, which look like they might be in the epic game (not just a scenario). You could still get your wish.

The BtS one gives it more challenge so the tech loser could win!

.... But in my Civ 2 days (when I could actually beat the hardest difficulty)

Well, those were the days, when it was fun to play deity level. ;)

Going back to the good old Civ II style game can only be good. Even more fun if it's possilbe to sabotage the other Civs space ships.

Personally I'm not a warmonger, but when you honestly think about it once you have a decent amount of resources and cities you really DON'T get a ton of real benefits from conquering.

I have honestly thought about it and I honestly think that you are honestly wrong.

Did I mention that I'm being honest?

You gain a lot of useless people who are annoyed that your at war with their "mother country",

Convert them into new troops, with slavery. They also stop caring that you are at war with their mother country after their mother country is dead (generally, not long after they come out of resistance in the first place).

a lot of cities you have to pay maintanence cost on, a lot of territory to manage and defend,

Neither of these is a big deal, if you're going for domination or conquest anyway.

and often as not lousy relations with the other players.

If you do it right, warfare generally improves your relations with selected other players (you get positive diplomatic points for "common struggle").

Wtf is up with the Space Race winning movie ?

spoiler !!!










































It looks like the rocket is stalled out in space and then you hear heart beats. Its pretty lame if you ask me.