It seems BtS expansion will feature the Standard Ethanol Company, which consumes corn and provides oil, but the best technology to obtain ethanol to fuel purposes is from sugar cane, not corn! :eek:

So the said Standard Ethanol Company should provide oil from sugar, not corn. Or, at least, provide oil from either sugar or corn... ;)

Best Regards,

Mad Hab

If so, perhaps sugar is used for some other corporations or too many corporation combos, and for the sake of balancing the game they chose corn instead for the Standard Ethanol Company. If this is the case, I support their decision.

If not, then they should be more realistically accurate and replace it with sugar.

I can see it now: with all the silly features they've added, BtS will be broken and will kill the Civ franchise. ;) Seriously, though, the idea of having ethanol in the game at all is ridiculous. What's the point? Is oil not effective enough for you? It defeats the whole point of oil so far as I can see. Now, if they had quantitative resources :mischief: I could see why, because oil would dwindle over time, but to me this just seems like a waste of good programming.

Mabe ethanol will provide +1 :health: and +1 :) with environmentalism ("You are green-friendly!"). If you build the Al Gore internet the effects are doubled, but at the cost of increased maintenance. :D

You can of course make ethanol from corn, the only reason it is easier to make it from sugar cane is because sugar is the main ingredient in making ethanol!

I think that they had chosen Ethanol to be produced by Corn (instead of sugar) because corn is an easy resource (Sugar exist only in tropical areas). In the future wars of the game (BtS theme), nations need oil to produce units, and the nations who don't have oil, can produce it from corn (easy to find).

Maybe this is good for the game balance, with this only few nations will not have Oil on their territory.

This things can avoid a war between 19XX and 2050 with "Rifflemens versus Modern Infantry" or maybe "Archers versus Modern Infantry".

NO CORN FOR OIL!
NO CORN FOR OIL!
NO CORN FOR OIL!

:stupid: :run: :nope: :agree: :salute:

This just in... a massive scandal breaks out in Babylon over the U.N. "Food for Oil" program...

I'd wager that different corporations will require different techs, with Standard Ethanol Company requiring some pretty late one. Or maybe it'll require more than just one unit of corn. Otherwise it would ruin the resource system indeed.

NO CORN FOR OIL!
NO CORN FOR OIL!
NO CORN FOR OIL!

:stupid: :run: :nope: :agree: :salute:

Maybe if you don't run environmentalism you get unhappiness if you produce corn for ethanol, or similar production. That would be an incentive to run the civic if you're very dependent on producing your oil from corn...

"You have discovered corn mash. (hiccup)"

maybe because the main market is America where corn is used more than sugar cane to make Ethanol?

I'd wager that different corporations will require different techs, with Standard Ethanol Company requiring some pretty late one. Or maybe it'll require more than just one unit of corn. Otherwise it would ruin the resource system indeed.

What details do we even have on these Corporations? For all we know, Standard Ethanol just gives an extra health bonus to any city with corn and Standard Ethanol, rather than outright replacing the oil resource with corn. Unless, of course, some new information's come to light that I've missed.

Using corn is pointless and not economically viable. Id know, i did my dissertation on Biofuels.

I have to say i'm really at a loss as to the point of corporations if they're only function is to turn surplus corn resources into surplus oil resources, and surplus pig, corn, wheat resources into extra food for certain cities.
Isn't the point of corporations (or at least the idea of corporations in civ) that they produce more concentrated and greater output, or give economic rewards?
I have to say i'm really at a loss to find the benefit in founding a corporation that turns your surplus corn into surplus oil.
Surely they'll have a big economic benefit too? (Or have i just wasted £20 buying a rubbish expansion pack that does nothing to take the game forward?)

Just thought I would link this news story about rising corn prices due to ethanol production.. :p

http://www.cbc.ca/consumer/story/2007/05/22/corn.html

We here in Hawaii are talking about growing more sugar cane to produce ethanol and other biofuels. We are even talking about converting crops like noni - especially when crop yield exceeds consumer's demand for juice.

I have to say i'm really at a loss as to the point of corporations if they're only function is to turn surplus corn resources into surplus oil resources, and surplus pig, corn, wheat resources into extra food for certain cities.
Isn't the point of corporations (or at least the idea of corporations in civ) that they produce more concentrated and greater output, or give economic rewards?
I have to say i'm really at a loss to find the benefit in founding a corporation that turns your surplus corn into surplus oil.
Surely they'll have a big economic benefit too? (Or have i just wasted £20 buying a rubbish expansion pack that does nothing to take the game forward?)

There is a commerce bonus associated with having the HQ of a corporation that has been equated to a holy shrine for religions. Perhaps 2:commerce: per branch.

Extra resources don't do anything now. Aren't corporations just being good corporate citizens by producing oil or extra food for your people?

I'm uncertain about the released details of corporate advantages. My major concern would be that the corporation generated resource will be able to all of the civ's cities. I'd rather see the new resource only be made available to the city in which the corporation is based.

I assume that, like religions, when a corporation arrives in a city it will give the option to build 2 or 3 buildings with each of those buildings providing most of the available bonuses. We only know one of the bonuses to the host city.

Severus:
I have to say i'm really at a loss as to the point of corporations if they're only function is to turn surplus corn resources into surplus oil resources, and surplus pig, corn, wheat resources into extra food for certain cities.
Isn't the point of corporations (or at least the idea of corporations in civ) that they produce more concentrated and greater output, or give economic rewards?
I have to say i'm really at a loss to find the benefit in founding a corporation that turns your surplus corn into surplus oil.
Surely they'll have a big economic benefit too? (Or have i just wasted £20 buying a rubbish expansion pack that does nothing to take the game forward?)

One point I think you might be missing is that the oil created isn't necessarily excess.

Patraig:
There is a commerce bonus associated with having the HQ of a corporation that has been equated to a holy shrine for religions. Perhaps 2 per branch.

That bonus only applies to the civ that founds the civ. Like religions, other civ require a reason to want foreign corporations in their territory.

Using corn is pointless and not economically viable. Id know, i did my dissertation on Biofuels.

Any well-educated chemical engineer can tell you that corn ethanol is barely energy positive (in many studies, it actually comes out energy-negative, meaning you put more energy into producing the fuel than you get out of the fuel produced), and thus a highly inefficient use of corn. I'm certain several other energy-related professionals could tell you that as well.

I'm waiting to see how they are actually being implemented to pass judgment on it. I'm just hoping to see something Standard Oil or Carnegie Steel, or some of the other famous corporations.

No corn for fuel. We don't want George Dubya invading Mexico, they're already invading the U.S.

What details do we even have on these Corporations? For all we know, Standard Ethanol just gives an extra health bonus to any city with corn and Standard Ethanol, rather than outright replacing the oil resource with corn. Unless, of course, some new information's come to light that I've missed.

I'm not quite sure what point you're trying to make there. I'm merely speculating as of how such simple source of oil wouldn't mess up the resource system.

I think it would be useful if people first tried to read all the information available so far about corporations (e.g. from the BtS info center) before complaining - a lot of negative comments made so far in this thread show that people are ignorant of certain corporation features that were already made public. :rolleyes:

I have to say i'm really at a loss as to the point of corporations if they're only function is to turn surplus corn resources into surplus oil resources, and surplus pig, corn, wheat resources into extra food for certain cities.
Isn't the point of corporations (or at least the idea of corporations in civ) that they produce more concentrated and greater output, or give economic rewards?
I have to say i'm really at a loss to find the benefit in founding a corporation that turns your surplus corn into surplus oil.
Surely they'll have a big economic benefit too? (Or have i just wasted £20 buying a rubbish expansion pack that does nothing to take the game forward?)


Say that you discover combustion and realise that you have no oil. In vanilla you'd go OH **** and invade the nearest country to get some. BtS lets you do that, but also gives you another option. Tech as fast as you can to ecology, to found Standard Ethanol. Now, you can spread your corporation too al of your cities. All of these cities now have one less corn resource and one oil resource and pay extra maintenance. If you managed to survive the onslaught of tanks, you can now survive. Say that you then have a great merchant and use him to found the Standard Ethanol HQ; also, your neighbour montezuma doesn't have any oil. What do you do?
1) Spread the corporation to him, giving him access to oil and giving you shrine-like benefits.
2) Think that Monty with oil is just too dangerous and so ignore him.

More intelligent desicion making is good.





I don't know that corporations are going to work like I described them is, IMHO, the best way. Basicaly, they work exactly like religions; but give bonuses from resources. Also I think then one they say "turns one corn into one oil resource", it means that a city looses access to a corn resource and gains one oil resource; not that a whole civ looses a corn resource per city the corporation is in.

Say that you then have a great merchant and use him to found the Standard Ethanol HQ; also, your neighbour montezuma doesn't have any oil. What do you do?
1) Spread the corporation to him, giving him access to oil and giving you shrine-like benefits.
2) Think that Monty with oil is just too dangerous and so ignore him.

More intelligent desicion making is good.


This raises an interesting question: will corporations spread automatically like religions, or are they completely player-dependent?

I think it would be useful if people first tried to read all the information available so far about corporations (e.g. from the BtS info center) before complaining - a lot of negative comments made so far in this thread show that people are ignorant of certain corporation features that were already made public. :rolleyes:

Sorry; that wasn't meant to be a complaint, but a serious question. I must've missed the front page update.

I'm not quite sure what point you're trying to make there. I'm merely speculating as of how such simple source of oil wouldn't mess up the resource system.

It comes far later than Oil, so people with Oil still have a huge advantage in that they can attack earlier. Additionally, it gives money to whoever owns the HQ (if that person is you, of course, it's a no-brainer). Lastly, it doesn't work under State Property, which is a fairly common end-game civic.

Here's what the latest article said:

There are a few corporations worth mentioning. Standard Ethanol, for example, consumes corn, sugar, or rice and produces oil. This corporation can be a lifesaver in the modern era, where lack of oil can doom your civilization. Similarly, if you lack aluminum but have access to coal, you can aim to found Aluminum, Inc., which will allow you to compete in the space race. Creative Constructions turns obsolete strategic resources like iron, copper, stone, or marble into extra production for your cities.

So Ethanol can come from sugar as well (for the OP ;) )

it doesn't work under State Property, which is a fairly common end-game civic.

I think this will be my favourite thing about Corporations. People might finally think twice about using State Property. Come to think of it, this should benefit the feeble peacemonger builder types like me...

Yeah, usually when I have an empire of any decent size, State Property is almost always a no-brainer choice. These Corporations will make it more interesting.

Any well-educated chemical engineer can tell you that corn ethanol is barely energy positive (in many studies, it actually comes out energy-negative, meaning you put more energy into producing the fuel than you get out of the fuel produced), and thus a highly inefficient use of corn. I'm certain several other energy-related professionals could tell you that as well.

I'm waiting to see how they are actually being implemented to pass judgment on it. I'm just hoping to see something Standard Oil or Carnegie Steel, or some of the other famous corporations.

Granted. Ethanol from corn is basically a resource conversion, rather than an energy source, but it's still a food source after the extraction process, it just concentrates the protien and lowers the calories.... sounds like a plus health to me :lol:



Seriously, a nation at war in need of energy would probably chop for methanol, but I would like to somehow be able to convert for strategic resources, not unlike converting my production to culture or research. The corps. sound like an answer.


I agree that there should be famous corps as well as famous people . I hope there's a LLoyd's, A Hudson Bay, some East India companies, perhaps a Curtis-Wright corp.

I don't mind resource converstion - but IMHO it should come at high cost - something like 2 Suggar or 4 rice/Wheat resources, that can not be used otherwise , can be converted to ethanol ...

Additional - less food for your population. I read that the amount of corn you need to power one car, could feed 32 people otherwise. So this should have an impact on your food supply. Even at that high cost it would be useful for someone without oil.

I think such high cost are nessesary, because it is more realistic and resources like oil are still very valuable this way.

I agree that there should be famous corps as well as famous people . I hope there's a LLoyd's, A Hudson Bay, some East India companies, perhaps a Curtis-Wright corp.

Sure, as long as they don't follow the "americans-only" path and let us found Nestlé, Mercedez and maybe... Nintendo! :lol:

Cheers!

Mad Hab, glad to know we will make oil from sugar as well

I don't mind resource converstion - but IMHO it should come at high cost - something like 2 Suggar or 4 rice/Wheat resources, that can not be used otherwise , can be converted to ethanol ...

Additional - less food for your population. I read that the amount of corn you need to power one car, could feed 32 people otherwise. So this should have an impact on your food supply. Even at that high cost it would be useful for someone without oil.

I think such high cost are nessesary, because it is more realistic and resources like oil are still very valuable this way.

Well, the U.S. government pays "farmers" tons of money each year not to farm and our waistlines are still bulging.

Is ethanol supposed to substitute for a lacking oil resource? If so, then how do the engines get lubricated? Synthetic oil I would guess.

If it is not a substitute for oil then what is the point? Just another corp. to make gold? I guess that would work.

rainmaker

Any Americans reading this thread:

Please call your representatives and tell them what an absolutely TERRIBLE idea it is to use our food for powering our cars.

At some point down the line when the 21st century is in the history books/interactive PDF's/holodecks... we will be seen as the FOOLS that thought it would be a good idea to use the single most important food resource we have to inefficiently create ethanol to run our cars. Please call your representatives and tell them what a tragically stupid idea this is and to shut down any legislation that might mandate ethanol's use in our fuels.

You're doing a huge favor to your children, trust me.

Can ethanol be made from corn? Yes.

Is it more feasible to make it from sugar? Probably.


Does it break the game? No.

A less-realistic option is the ability to airlift whole tank units into theaters of war. If you want more realism, get on Firaxis for this little feature and insist that armored units be sent either via land or via sea, not via air.

And can we please keep politics out of this? There is a perfectly serviceable "OFF TOPIC" forum for feckless meanderings about politics and all sorts of other topics that will no doubt keep the Americans and Canadians and Mexicans busy while they wait with baited breath for the North American release date.

It's only a "political" issue because in many cases... this one included... democracy and common sense are mutually exclusive.

Anyway... the question as to why for game balance reasons ethanol is made from corn and not sugar was already answered. It is because the sugar resources are very few and far between in the game due to the tile requirements.

If you'll note, the guy who brought up this "concern" was from Brazil. This makes sense because from his perspective he can't fathom why the rest of us fools are using corn to make our ethanol. The obvious answer is that we can't grow sugar cane like they can in his region. Most of the industrialized world falls into this category.

Standard Ethanol consumes Sugar, Rice AND Corn. And I agree that this is no place for a political discussion.