First off, let me say that this mod is amazing. I finally bought Civ4 a week or two ago, after wanting it since it came out (between saving money for a house, and having other games to play it just kept getting pushed back), and I liked it a lot. But then I started looking at the Warlords expansion and was thinking it didn't look like all that much improvement, and BTS looks like it could be good, but hardly earth-shattering.

Then I found this forum on here and downloaded FfH. It's incredible how much this mod adds to the game - paid expansions completely pale beside it. Not only is the theme excellent, but there are so many things added to the game, lots of civs that all play totally different, and it seems to be fairly well balanced. I feel like I should be paying for this. Is there a donation link, or would that be considered a conflict of interest since you guys are essentially building off of Firaxis' work and intellectual property?

Anyway, I digress.

The first race I started playing was Grigori - they looked to be easy enough to handle, and also seemed to have an interesting unique unit. I can't remember now if I started at Noble or Warlord (wanted to start slow, since diving into FfH requires learning an entirely new system, plus I was getting frustrated in vanilla with the frequency of barbarian attacks when I was trying to play a Phi/Ind society and just wanted to be left in peace to build wonders). But it seemed very easy. I don't know if this is because Grigori are overpowered, or if it was just the quality of competition, and maybe the AI doesn't really know how to play FfH that well...

So the first thing I did was do a search on here for Grigori, and there seems to be very little discussion of them. It seems like few people play them, maybe because a) they are Agnostic and so lose some of the flavor of the game (aside: I must admit I love the music when Octopus Overlords spreads to one of my cities), or b) because they are overpowered and everyone knows it.

First thing in the game that I played, I was attacked by Clan of Embers. I had intended on staying peaceful for a while, learning my civ and the system, and I also figured that Adventurers probably started out weak and got more powerful in the late game when they'd had a chance to promote a bunch and then upgrade while keeping the promotions intact. Boy was I wrong. I easily repelled the attack and captured two Clan cities before suing for peace. After founding a few cities, I found myself wanting some of theirs, so I declared war and wiped them off the map in a matter of about 10-20 turns, using only 2 of my Adventurers (I think I had about 5 at that point, but couldn't be bothered to move them all across the map, and I think I was saving 2 until I could get spell-casting units). A little bit later, I Water Walked across the ocean and took out Doviello, then finally researched some ships and brought a full army to bear on Malakim. Next to fall under my axe will be Khazad and Amurite. Now, I repeat, this might be because Grigori is so strong, or it might just be the level of competition and I should probably up the difficulty level. But no one seems to have units that can stand up to Combat 5, Commando heroes with +3 base strength (two from promotions, one from bronze), and some other random promotions. Not as early in the game as the Grigori have access to them.

Anyway, like I said, I was unable to find any discussion of them on the board, and was looking for some other people's opinions and strategies on Grigori. I will post some of my own later, if there's any interest at all in this thread - for right now, this is already pretty long and rambling...

And again, thanks to the author(s?) - this mod rocks, can't wait to try out everything else it has to offer. And I'm already eagerly awaiting the other 3 parts of the mod (expansions?).

Daladinn posted some really good strategies for the Grigori on the FFH Wiki.

I find, when I'm playing the Grigori, that it's simply too easy to get lost in all the options you have available. The Adaptive trait, along with adventurers, makes the Grigori one of the most versatile civs in the game. You could take an arcane path, a mercantile path, or a melee path VERY easily.

I feel like I should be paying for this. Is there a donation link, or would that be considered a conflict of interest since you guys are essentially building off of Firaxis' work and intellectual property?

Read the F.A.Q. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=190988) for Kael's standing on donations. ;)

Ah yes, I did just read that FAQ. Donating to Unicef is so unsatisfying, though... :lol:

Anyway, yeah, I read the strategy suggestions in the wiki, and they're useful, but I just didn't think they were a substitute for a discussion thread where everyone can contribute (and on the other hand, a discussion thread isn't a substitute for a good wiki article).

Anyway, re-reading my original post, I think I had two questions in amongst the static... Are Grigori overpowered? If not (or even if so), what are some of the strategies that some people use. And specifically wondering about specific strategies or specific tactics not mentioned in the wiki.

Frex, what do people tend to promote their Adventurers with? Particularly the ones that they *don't* upgrade to Adepts (i.e. the melee troops that you use Adventurers for in the beginning of the game, and then eventually promote further, say to Luonnatar (sp?), and perhaps beyond - but I haven't played beyond that point yet with Grigoli). I think I went with Mobility I, Commando, Heroic Strength I & II, Combat V. Besides that, they were varied a little. Woodsman, Medic, City Raider... ? I think? Anyway, is there an optimal strategy for those? Although, honestly, at least for Warrior-level troops, it's fairly cut and dried.

Should one promote their Adventurers right away or wait until higher-level troops are available. When your empire is starting to settle down, do you move your palace to a "clean" city and only build Adventurer GPP buildings?

What traits are most advantageous for your Adaptive slot? I saw the write-up on using Financial, but it doesn't really fit with my style. I like using Creative for the first 100 or so turns, and then I think I was switching to Arcane, but I'm not sure if I'm satisfied that Creative was really worth it. Organized might be nice, since you need gold for upgrading (and all Civs do in FfH, but I think Grigori in particular to upgrade adventurers). Aggressive wouldn't hurt if you've got nothing else, but I'm not sure it applies to adventurers - haven't tried it yet.

Anyway, any other discussion welcome... :D

I just got bombarded to dust by Grigori Mage heroes from a pirate ship. :p - in MP.

delected by me

Aggressive wouldn't hurt if you've got nothing else, but I'm not sure it applies to adventurers - haven't tried it yet.Agressive won't apply to adventurers--they don't get free promotions from any source when first built. I think it has to do with not being combat units?
So those trait might be useful if you need to raise a large army, but fin. or arcane would probably be better.

My first adventurer is usually promoted to Axeman as quick as I can, and he can sometimes get another civs capital with a little back up. My second will usually be a hunter, with the third and fourth saved for mages/conjurers. After that I'll replace ones that I've lost, or just do whatever seems good at the moment, like knights. Unless things have changed, they cannot be upgraded to their unique hard to spell inquisitors. ;)
Are Grigori overpowered?They are one of many candidates for that title. So I guess not, but certainly powerful. I find them really fun to play.
Ah yes, I did just read that FAQ. Donating to Unicef is so unsatisfying, though... We're making a game we love and having a blast doing it. Since none of us are starving, go ahead and help someone who is if we end up saving you tons in entertainment dollars. :)
Although at the rate Kael codes, perhaps we should start a fund for marriage counseling? ;)j/k

Unless things have changed, they cannot be upgraded to their unique hard to spell inquisitors. ;)

Things changed all right. Now you have to upgrade someone to Luonnotar. Think of how unbalanced it would have been if you could still build Luonnotar to build up the alter.

One thing I've been playing around with recently are flurries. A drill IV flurry with stoneskin and cover II seems to really wreck the AI (at least 7 hits to even hurt the flurry!). Never tried this with the Grigori yet but I would guess that this may be an option to be aware of when upgrading adventurers. Upgrade to warrior, take promotions that archery units cannot normally get (woodsman, march, city raider:eek:), then upgrade up the archer line until you get flurries.

Things changed all right. Now you have to upgrade someone to Luonnotar. Think of how unbalanced it would have been if you could still build Luonnotar to build up the alter.

ohh ya , now all you need to do is keep resurecting the one you already have .... soo much harder ... lol

I just got bombarded to dust by Grigori Mage heroes from a pirate ship. :p - in MP.That's so cheap! :mad:

Things changed all right. Now you have to upgrade someone to Luonnotar. Think of how unbalanced it would have been if you could still build Luonnotar to build up the alter.

ohh ya , now all you need to do is keep resurecting the one you already have .... soo much harder ... lol
@ Gamestation--Oh yeah, I forgot about that, recent change.
@ daladinn--How much life mana do you have? Each ressurection costs a life node doesn't it?

I believe that it cost a node, but not the resource. Nodes can be rebuilt.

One thing I've been playing around with recently are flurries. A drill IV flurry with stoneskin and cover II seems to really wreck the AI (at least 7 hits to even hurt the flurry!). Never tried this with the Grigori yet but I would guess that this may be an option to be aware of when upgrading adventurers.

In cIVRPG which I'm working on, I got Accuracy and Evasion, which makes first strikes less good in a way. Cause you can miss a first strike, and the enemy can evade the first strikes. Although, I dont think accuracy and evasion is fitting for an empire spanning civgame. I use it cause each battle is more important and should be more interesting in my game.

And I must say that I loved the idea of first strikes since before Civ4 was released, when they first talked about the promotion system. And powerful units with first strikes are just awesome.

That's so cheap!
Comming from the guy who did it :p

ohh ya , now all you need to do is keep resurecting the one you already have .... soo much harder ... lol

Impossible. You cannot use resurrection a Grigori hero. It only works on civ unique heroes (like Gilden Silveric). Also, when casted, resurrection completely removes the mana resource.

they change that? i have resurrected brandig in the past

Apparently. Go ahead and try it yourself. Start a game as the Grigori. Found your capital. Go into worldbuilder to get a life node, life III archmage, and adventurer. Disband the adventurer. Look at the greyed out resurrection spell.

I believe that I heard that a disbanded unit does not count as a killed one. Perhaps you can resurrect them, but only if they actually die in combat.

I believe that I heard that a disbanded unit does not count as a killed one. Perhaps you can resurrect them, but only if they actually die in combat.

It counted when I resurrected Gilden.

I think going with creative for the first 100 turns to push borders then switching to financial is the strongest setup for building economy. Financial is even better in FFH than vanilla civ because it works with agriculture+aristocracy farms. Arcane isn't really needed as Adventurer Adepts level up fast enough without it anyway.

Strength of Will is the key endgame tech for Grigori as it enables both Archmages and Luonnatar. You probably want the first one or two adventurers promoted immediately as fighters to defend or attack against other civs (the promotion line warrior -> axeman -> dragonslayer -> luonnatar works well) and the next 3 as adepts. Once you get strength of will it's easy to just run around with your Twincast Archmage adventurers and kill everyone.

Overpowered? Not really, lack of access to religion and the powerful temples and priests is a major drawback, and the adventurers do come with the opportunity cost of denying other GPs.

I love the concept of the Grigori, but micromanaging my GPP every turn so the AI doesn't pollute my pool with specialists makes me want to throw my PC through the window.

If you set the city governor to maximize all three of food/production/commerce, it won't assign specialists.

If you set the city governor to maximize all three of food/production/commerce, it won't assign specialists.


Good tip! :)

If you set the city governor to maximize all three of food/production/commerce, it won't assign specialists.

Ah, that's clever.

Except if there are no tiles left for the new pop to be distributed to.

If you set the city governor to maximize all three of food/production/commerce, it won't assign specialists.
Neat! Thanks for the tip! Perhaps I can enjoy playing Cassiel after all! :)

It will sometimes assign a specialist over a field tile, IIRC, but only, say, an engineer (2 hammers) over a riverside desert (1 commerce). I don't know if it'd choose the engineer over a plain plain (1 food, 1 hammer), though.

Question: how would you counter Eurabatres in late-game with Grigori?

Question: how would you counter Eurabatres in late-game with Grigori?

Plenty of dragonslayers (some of them heroes?) or better units perhaps?

So essentially massing? Dragonslayers don't get any bonus against dragons, do they? (the obvious courage aside)

as their name implies, they get the Dragon Slayer promotion >.<

(+40% against dragons)

How could I miss that? I thought I'd checked. o.O

First time with Grigori, I can't figure out how to make my Adventurer into a Warrior. The action is there but 'grayed out'. I notice it appears only in a city. But what else do I need to do? He's got 50EP and I need him on the front.

do you have enough gold?

Suppose a Grigori Mage was to gain control of a Priest using Domination. Could that Priest then build a Temple in a Grigori city?

That's a really interesting idea. I wonder if you could upgrade them to Luonnotar and keep or improve their divine promotions, as well? Twincasting Flesh-Golem Summoner/Sorcerers... *shudder*

That's a really interesting idea. I wonder if you could upgrade them to Luonnotar and keep or improve their divine promotions, as well? Twincasting Flesh-Golem Summoner/Sorcerers... *shudder*

It works. The Temple was not particularly useful since the Grigori could still not build any of the Divine units. However, the Luonnotar upgrade did work and allowed the unit to gain levels in Body, Mind, and Chaos. (There were several Mana types I did not have, so there might be others.)

Use your first hero to destroy the first civ you come across. I took my continent by destroying the Illians with a str 5 warrior.

Archmages! 18 meteors per turn hooray (36 if you're awesome enough to get death)

I found that Charismatic was my flavor of choice trait. Cheaper exp requirements for level = more upgrades by 100 exp on the heroes.

Most all o fmy heroes went adept, but I am still getting used to magic, so that is probably mainly due to playing with things. First was a warrior, and wiped out the poor neighbor kids in the first 50 turns or so.

They are one of many candidates for that title. So I guess not, but certainly powerful. I find them really fun to play.


They are not overpowered. Religion limitation is really strong handycap.
Especially in later game, when cites grows, temples are very handful to cloud minds of your people (the think which Cassiel fight with).

Grigori have a hard time in the mid-game because they cannot declare a state religion. You need hapiness resources, but unfortunately, a city usually has either hapiness resources or hills for production, not both, and since they cannot adapt a religion, they can never use slavery or sacrifice the weak either in those hapiness-resource cities.

What I usually do with all of Cassiel's traits is to play like a normal non-slavery civ game (quite a bit of my private games actually), rush a couple great persons, build up to a tech advantage and go aggressive domination. When in doubt, win by conquest (that's just me though).

Magic on a ship: what's new? You built a coastal city in MP, without naval defense, and you don't expect a human player to (ab)use that? "Un"possible. You're lucky they used fireballs and not summons - the latter can actually take and raze your cities without a land force.

Gambling houses are great for grigori, up to +10 happiness and helps with the gold needed for upgrading adventurers. Or if you don't need gold and want a lot of happiness and culture, go Theatres.

Later on a Law3 Archmage for unyielding order and you're set.

They are not overpowered. Religion limitation is really strong handycap.
Especially in later game, when cites grows, temples are very handful to cloud minds of your people (the think which Cassiel fight with).It's also a function of map types. Playing Gigori on pangea... who needs later game? :lol:

I don't think anyone mentioned that to maximize the production of Adventurers you need to be careful about the wonders you build and where you build them.

I could have sworn that I saw that the next .25 patch would allow the Grigori to upgrade their other GPs to Adventurers for a little gold, but it isn't there anymore. That would have removed the need to be careful about polluting the GPP pool.

ya i saw that too.. that wouldve been nice, without it that Ind trait is a waste (adaptive to change it is nice, but why give them that to start?)

wouldve been too easy to get adventurers that way likely, but im sure theres some compromise that would work

Well, for the first non-adventurer GP, start a golden age, which gives +100% GPP.

Might be neat if settled GP gave +1 adventurer point as well. But a system that allows you to trade in others 1 for 1 means you can take gambles like building oblisk, market, & elder council in every city, assigning max specialists, and have many 100 xp heroes much quicker, too much imo.

I still wish there was a way to make Gregori citizen specialist generate an adventurer point or two (or possibly to make each gregori unique building add 1 gp per citizen specialist).

It's also a function of map types. Playing Gigori on pangea... who needs later game? :lol:

Yep, but I like builder stile games.
Early warmongering is to easy to my mind. :(

Perhaps the Grigori should have a special specialist that gives adventure points.

So, what do you think of non-agnostic Grigori strategies? Kael just said that the next patch will change it so that it is the agnostic trait, not the civ, that makes religious techs unresearchable (and presumably temples/disciples unbuildable), so unrestricted leaders will probably allow adventurer priests.

my fav hero for non-agnostic is warrior>drown>stygian>eidolon

I played and won with gregori once, but cannot say I was overimpressed.
Then again, I lost my only neighbour quite soon :mischief:.

On the other hand, I played hippus on a pangea (with the raider leader), and was quite impressed...
super early high retreat horsemen were just unstoppable.
And I got more horsemen than you can get grigori adventures :p.

Anyway, on topic again, grigori's lack of religion made for an intersting, different game, where I really had to get all possible happiness boosting resources.

Has anyone achieved an Altar victory for the Grigori? I would imagine that it would not be too difficult to develop six Luonnotar, and that the techs leading up to Omniscience would be useful in their own right.