Welcome to our second installment of the Lonely Hearts club, where we explore the rather difficult situation of the isolated start.

For this installment, r_rolo has provided us with a save file using Shaka of the Zulu:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/95757/ShakaStart.jpg

Here is the save file:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/95757/LonelyShaka_BC-4000.CivWarlordsSave

Opening comments to follow.

Initial thoughts:

First, about our leader and civilization:

Shaka is aggressive (Free Combat I promotion of melee and gunpowder units. Double production speed of Barracks and Drydock) and expansive (+2 health per city. Double production speed of granary and harbor), and has the impi (replaces spear) and Ikhanda (a barracks that offers -20% maintenance). The Zulu start knowing agriculture and hunting.

For isolated starts, the Zulu present an intriguing mix. I imagine many people, when playing an aggressive civ, simply restart when there are no early war victims around, but there are several advantages the Zulu have in this situation.

First, the impi (should we have metal) make very good fogbusting units with their mobility, and are tough enough to deal with archers (although they need some backup against barbarian axes, we will probably want to make fogbusting a priority so we don't have to deal with many of those).

Second, the Ikhanda gives us a barracks for better troops, is cheaper to build because of the aggressive trait, and helps lower the cost of all the early expansion we will want to do.

Third, the expansive trait gives us a health bonus. One factor in an isolated start is a relative lack of bonus resources. While monarchy/hereditary rule provides a way to deal with happiness issues, there is no easy solution for health problems. The +2 health will be a big help--especially in the flood plain start we seem to be given right now.

So: what are your initial thoughts about this situation?

I'm suspicious to talk about this game, but Shaka may be good in isolated starts because of the REXing. His UB is a mini courthouse that gives XP to Units :D and, even that is a shame to put Impis in a isolated start, they do a good job as anti barb units. Nevertherless, Shaka has no economic traits, which can slow down your research. And the lack of Myst will most surely stop you of having a early religion ( religions help a lot in isolated starts)
From this I would this something like:

Research Myst while buiding warrior ( we don't know the island size and if it is from a size near of the ALC 15 , we'll be with some barb problems)

AH ( even if no horsies around, you be able to work the Pigs, suposing you'll settle on place (not a bad site at all, by the looks of it( move the scout before settling of course ), Mining, BW wheel, Pottery ( all this can be changed )

Stonehenge ( border pop + GP points )

.....

GPhophet bulbs theo and you become a christian ( I really doubt that with Shaka you manage to found Bud, Hind or Judaism)

The problem with this is if you don't have stone or marble, this will take away your chances on the Oracle ( and of the much needed Monarchy tech ).

Ouch, this one is going to be much tougher!

I think that Oracle is more useful if you want a religion. Use Oracle to grab CoL, early courthouses are useful even if you have Ikhanda. I'll probably try that on my shadow game.

How about research? We need myst-poly-priesthood-writing for sure, but what else? I think we need mining-BW to chop Oracle, and then getting AH first can just take too long. I would like to research wheel-pottery too to take advantage of all those floodplains, but I'm afraid that it is out of question if we can't find gold or silver from a fat cross.

Maybe Henge is not a bad idea after all. Getting both AH and pottery earlier could be wise, and that would be possible then. We should properly use our starting position.

Or third way could be the most ambitious. Go mining-BW-myst-poly-priesthood-writing and chop both Henge and Oracle. We could found both Confu and Christianity then, if our second city could support two priests we could get another GP for CS also.

What do you guys think?

Wasn't the goal of the series to start play once isolation became clear? We will have to be careful to not let the fact that we are isolated guide our play before we actually see it for ourselves in the game.

I agree, I liked the way in the last game the initial save was played on from when the player realised that they were isolated on their continent.

What difficulty level is this on?

Also don't forget about the Ikhanda not being counted as a barracks bug for the Nationhood civic.

Wasn't the goal of the series to start play once isolation became clear? We will have to be careful to not let the fact that we are isolated guide our play before we actually see it for ourselves in the game.

Yes--I, at least, will avoid any gambits based on the assumption of isolation.

A normal Shaka start would probably involve a warrior or scout while growing the city for later worker/settler builds, I would think. At least my first priorities are scouting and expansion (no matter who the leader is). In a game where I didn't know the situation, bronze working would be an early priority for the impis and second city location, so I'll probably go toward that first (to maintain a more normal situation).

Others may do whatever they like, of course.

I don't think it really makes a difference to how you start; buildwise you'll be doing 1-3 warriors/scouts, worker, settler. Techwise you'll go through standard mining, BW, AH, wheel, pottery, writing, maybe some religious techs. By the time you've got this lot done you'll have done your local exploring. You ain't going to change the start much knowing you're isolated, you still need to milk cows, grow crops, chop forests regardless of being isolated or surrounded by civs.

If someone wants it, I can post a later save. I gave Willpax the 4000 BC save because of some requests that were made about the Incan game.

But I agree with pigswill: Shaka has a scout, and if the RNG Gods aren't completely mad with you, you'll discover that you're isolated before you can make your first wonder ( probably even before of your first settler ). Not much of a difference for a more normal game or even of a non isolated start with a faraway civ in the other side of a snaky continent.

@ CivSetä

I like your third option. Risky, bold ... it might work.

I'll try ( for the second time ) the Henge + Oracle.

@ ParadigmShifter

Monarch, Random leader, Standart, Temperate, medium sea level, Fractal, Epic speed

Non-industrious leader? Unless there's accessible stone or marble I'd just expand and forget early wonders, but then again I rarely build early wonders.

I presume its Monarch again?

Expansive should shine really well. I'd like to see a different strategy here:

- No early wonders - Without mysticism or mining to start, it will be hard work to get Oracle - not worth it in my opinion compared to getting your cottages running.

- Very early archery - you are one tech from archery - thats enough for early defense and fogbusting. Archers are cheap for HR later.

- Delay bronzeworking, in fact everything else until you get pottery and start cottage spamming. Then go bronzeworking. So early tech is wheel, pottery, archery, mining, bronze.

- Since your capital is on floodplains, you can farm one tile, drop cottages on the remainder and still have fairly good worker/settler production once you reach your cap. Your capital can keep working 5 cottages and pump out settlers.

- Consider farming some barbarian cities if the land is big enough. Possibly you can set aside an area for them to grow in and fogbust the rest. Since you will have barracks, try and get an impi to level 3.

- After bronzeworking, shoot for AH, writing, priesthood and monarchy. Then mathematics and straight to Optics. With your UB and lots of cottages you may be able to delay COL.

The main plus of the Impi is that when you get bronze you will be able to build cover impis which can race around slaying barb archers all over the place. So one impi could do the barb protection of two normal units and hopefully get to Level 3.

I opted for a very standard opening with the Zulu: a bronzeworking beeline with an initial scout build for early exploration (Invisiblestalke, I look forward to seeing how your pottery/archery opening works in comparison). After BW and animal husbandry, my plan is to go for pottery and begin cottage spamming.

I'll give a summary rather than a turn-by-turn log: my first and second scouts mapped out the island and produced 175 gold plus the technology of fishing. I have a warrior guarding the capital, have finished the revolt into slavery, and have a worker started. The map looks pretty isolated to me:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/95757/3040Map.jpg

The southern scout whille wheel around clockwise to check out the southwest corner, which I hope will reveal a bed of crabs (:lol:).

So, pending animal husbandry and iron working, here's what we have to work with:

strategic resources: bronze, ivory
happiness resources: ivory, silver, and (later) whale
health resources: pig, sheep, deer, clam, fish

No stone, no marble. I'm not even sure we want to try for the Oracle (although it still is tempting for the tech bonus and a metal casting slingshot for Colossus--although I don't see as many promising coastal sites as last game).

Another resource: a big long winding river that will allow us to hook up the bronze without a continent-spanning road, as well as cottage or farm along as we need to, as well as another river to the south. With some farms, we should be able to get cities up to their caps fairly quickly.

I think the next builds will be finish worker, then warrior, then settler. The scouts can fogbust to the north and I will hook up bronze as soon as possible.

This looks challenging.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/95757/Lonely_Shaka_BC-3040.CivWarlordsSave

Could I request that people post reports and maps in spoiler tags :) .

For one thing it takes less scrolling to work through the thread. More importantly it allows people to discuss general strategy and tactics in the thread without spoiling their games in the process :goodjob: .

I gave it a quick try but haven't gotten off the island yet.

I got the oracle for monarchy and lightbulbled philosophy for taoism. I also built the great lighthouse. I have two great scientists in reserve and one coming up. Once machinery is done they will be used to lightbulb optics and astronomy for oceanic trade routes. I've built mostly farms and don't have a single cottage in the 800ADs. I went from a slavery civic, to a heritidary rule civic, to a caste system civic to a pacifism civic. Once i have a third scientist in reserve, i will focus on building up my cities for larger trade route revenue.

Immac.

end round 1 (http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/26373/end_round_1.CivWarlordsSave)

end round 2 (http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/26373/end_round_2.CivWarlordsSave)

Looks like a good start - lots of space and four health resources. Monarchy should be a priority - and I'd skip all the wonders and just get cottages up and running and beeline monarchy.

@ Willpax and lurkers

It's challenging indeed. The island is quite big ( perhaps we should call it small continent ) and has that long river calling for farms and cottages. There are a bunch of flooplain sites ( I can see 3/4 floodplain cities :eek: ) and some grassland in the south ( needs IW ). Either a CE or FE/SE aproach are good with this map ( and the Exp :health: bonus helps with the floodplains ), but both work well with large pop ( read HR ). On the other hand there isn't a clear GP farm site ( maybe 1N of the NE sheep or somewhere near the deer... none is a hotspot, but...) and no obvious coastal sites ( maybe Collosus isn't such a hot shot as it was in the Capac game)

In your place I would settle near the cooper ( maybe 1 W) and start doing Impis ( the island is big and fogbusting it totally may not be a option ). Oracle or not (I would try for a early HR or for the CoL tech) you should ReX the island ASAP , focusing on inner cities (more workable area) , maybe focusing on the long river ( with Shaka + Ikhandas 4 undeveloped cities allows 60% science and floating, 6 with a good cottaged floodplain site like your capitol)

Seeing far away, I would say that this start is good for a diplomatic win after Biology ( lots of places for big cities will put you surely as the #1 in pop ) and for space ( Emancipation liftoff will help you catching up the tech and I can can see some decent production sites ( some need lumbermills + railroads ),some of the near the Equator ( Space Elevator )), and not so hot for Cultural (I doubt that you can found more than 2 religions). With such a large island ( compare with Lonely Capac ) Domination is a option too.

I'm eager to see the outcomes :D ( most surely better than my own :blush: )

at least for me almost all normal games involve sevral workers before pop 3 and most likely before pop 2...

My contribution to the victory spoilers:

Space victory in 1934.

After my first offline try ( right next to Lonely Capac) that was a very tight and wierd space race loss ( by 5 turns in 1952, to ceasar ( the guy had Three gorges dam )) in a almost completely hindi world ( only the Ottoman guy remained buddist) tech trading like mad, I decided to give it another try. I decided to do a Henge + Oracle gambit ( no stone, no marble, not Ind :lol: ), to guarantee a religion ( which I failed to found in my first game, giving myself lots of headaches) and a early HR. Suprisingly, I've got the two wonders on my capitol with little chopping ( two forests ), giving me 4GPP for a GPhrophet.
Of course that doing two wonders delayed my ReXing and the fogbusting and had some barb problems. But after some work I've got half dozen of cities and even more wierd, founded Confu and Christ(with the GPhophet)( the continuous birth and death of GG gave me a clue of what the AIs were doing...), powered by my heavily cottaged capitol.
After contact with outer world (near 900) and trading of Theo for some leftovers ( all the other AI had at least 8 techs on me) and of (not suprisingly) lost both the circumnavigation and the liberalism race, I quickly filled the coastal gaps is my island and focused on economical techs ( Guilds, Banking, PP ) I beelined Democracy for the Emancipation jump ( like Aelf did in Immortal Chalenge I) and US ( in that ocasion the AI where kind enough to send missionaries to my lands, so the HR ->US transition wasn't a big bump).
In between the AI continued warring eachothers ,with Ceasar and Ragnar slowly eating Mao and Ramesses cities, while adding diplo - against me because of my continual refusal to fight other people wars ( but I cave in to every demand of tribute :scared: )
When I realized that I was the second to finish apollo ( first was the Ind (and vassalized to Ceasar) Ramesses) and that I had the monopoly in computers and was one of three civs that had aluminium, I understood that the space race was in the bag. Shift -Enter some times and launch... with the AI still killing eachothers :D ( china was swept away of the game during this phaze of the game).
Not a briliant game, but my first Augustus win on Monarch ( 15k ) :band: :beer: :cheers:

I do believe that having done a heavy cottaging of the capitol was the key of the game, much more than the Henge + Oracle gambit. And Shaka proved to be a nice leader for an isolated start if there is space for ReX . The ability of having more cities with non-sinking finances, the Exp trait ( helped a lot with those heavy :yuck: floodplains sites ) and the Impi ( that prove to be a very effective antibarb unit, only needing help for the occasional axe ), combined with a not so bad island ( has cooper, iron, elephants, coal, uranium, oil and aluminium) with a decent size gave Shaka a ocasion to shine in a role that most of the people wouldn't think he would cope. I really think that a more competent player could pull a Dom/Conquest out of this (a attack on the Ottoman guy during the gunpowder age and the other later). But I have serious doubts that Shaka would work well in a rather small island like Capac had.

The save (last turn before victory):
Ricardo_Rolo_AD-1933.CivWarlordsSave (http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/91629/Ricardo_Rolo_AD-1933.CivWarlordsSave)

P.S In spite of the diferent traits and strategies against isolation of Capac and Shaka, both have a early UU that copes well with the barb problem. If willpax wants to do a Lonely heart 3, maybe I'll suggest a leader with a less early UU (need to think on that after :sleep:; is almost 5AM in here).

For this round, the goal was some early expansion, cottage spamming, and initial research goals.

Some barbarian difficulties delayed things somewhat, but I ended up founding city #2 near the mouth of the river in 1810 BC. I had to build a few emergency warriors to deal with an early barb wave (3 warriors and one archer in two turns), but survived.

Initial research goals: pottery for cottages, writing for libraries and to unlock code of laws, and monarchy for hereditary rule. Those, along with mathematics for chopping, were finished by 40 BC. No lightbulbing, no Oracle--all of these techs were earned the old fashioned way (helped by having 5 growing cottages in the flood plains of the capital). Still, I managed to found Confucianism in 310 BC, which (after it spreads) will help some with happiness even as it complicates diplomacy at first contact.

I have founded four cities so far, with two of those cities currently producing settlers. I've managed to keep up a 70% research rate, so I think I can up the pace of expansion for the next round. I could use a few more workers as well. I've got enough impis for fog busting, and they have discovered a well-located barbarian city near the ivory, so I plan on building a few axes to take control over this next round.

I think further, and more rapid, expansion will be the order of the day for the next round. The main questions at this point concern research order. Some possible priorites:

1.Civil service for bureacracy, which would kick the commerce-heavy capital into overdrive and allow for chain irrigation to some city sites.

2. Metal casting for forges--with silver on the island, forges give us +1 happy in addition to the production bonus.

3. Currency for the +1 trade route for a more robust economy.

4. Optics for the whale and the slow path toward getting off this rock.

So: any advice on research priorities?

The current map:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/95757/ShakaMap40bc.jpg

Current save:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/95757/Lonely_Shaka_BC-0040.CivWarlordsSave

@ Willpax and lurkers



Not a bad round. Some issues:

1- About tech: IMHO CS >> currency in isolation. Metal casting is not much of a necesity and Optics.... probably the other civs will contact you before you get it. At a larger scope, don't go for liberalism race unless you lightbulb Philo ( doubtfull, because you haven't set a GP farm yet ).Research until Education and go to the bottom side of the tech tree ( guilds + banking ) and strengten your economy.

2- City placement: The barb city is a must keep ( 3 elephants + fish + sugar :eek: ) but maybe waiting for catas may be a better move than axes. Found a city 2S 1W of the horses ( grabs fish too ): a city in that site will be a cottage heaven with some production after jungle clearance ( oops, you don't have IW yet :( ) The western sheep, the NE crabs and the E fish can be places for 2 scientists cities and the other river can hold two cottage cities ( on the other hand, maybe you should let one of those cities for a riverside ironworks ( see the Silustil Intermediate Tactics and Gambits (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=4426546) )if you desire a space win ( I'm sure that almost half of your island is below the 30º ))

3- Micromanaging: Farm the last two floodplains in the capitol by now, for a quicker city growth ( now you are in HR :) is not a issue anymore ). The food count indicates that your capitol won't need farms to sustain a 20 pop, but will take a loooong time if you rely only on cottaged floodplains. After the growth, you can cottage the farms and have a fully cottage city. Nevertheless, I would keep 4 out of the 5 forests you have in the BFC of your capitol ( = 2 :health: ). Later you can lumbermill them.

Your game looks good and when your cottages cities go fully online your tech rate will be quite high. But is important to remember that you need to ReX ASAP ( at least you need to fill the island before the other civs got Astro )

Good luck then :goodjob:

I'm playing a shadow game with Pottery first, then cottage spam and REX. I'm also beelining straight for Optics - up to Compass with just Optics to go. Don't have mathematics, alphabet, currency or code of laws.

Early pottery let my early research rate run fairly high - I still claimed the bronze. Impi were fantastic for destroying barb archers. Some bad luck when a barbarian axe arrived early and took out a shock axe and an archer and just got finished off by an Impi that raced back in time.

I didn't go for any of the economic techs - I just trusted to cottages and the ikhanda to control expenses. So far the economy is running OK - around 50% on the slider with 7 cities. The barbarians built in the same location but built walls before I could take them so they are waiting until construction.

Some things I probably should have done was get an earlier great scientist. I have just got one now for the academy and two more are underway in different cities.

I won't know until I meet the AI whether this has been a better approach than going for COL + Civil Service first. I am hoping I can still trade machinery and compass for something (I'd rather hang on to Optics if I can). I'll let you know the date when I made contact and where I stood after initial trades so we can compare whether beelining Optics was a good move or not.

OK, achieved first caravals in 635 AD. Unfortunately by then about the only thing left to trade is Optics - the AIs are all fairly advanced. Not sure this was the best approach - I think earlier civil service would have been worth it.

Future plans are marked as Spoilers - in case you haven't met the AIs yet.


Its a bit of a lovefest on the main continent. I am not sure who I can line up as enemies for a diplomatic win. Ramses and Ragnar are the two most powerful AI's and share buddism. Tokugawa shares it too, but he isn't going to be much help. I could turn buddist and get enough votes for diplomacy, but Ramses would be the likely opponent unless I can help one of the other AIs pass him. He is in a war with JC at the moment, maybe I'll be lucky and JC will knock him back a bit.

I'm racing for liberalism right now. Not sure I'll get it though as both Mao and Ragnar have the prereqs. I'm last in pretty much everything except land area where I am first. Have settled the continent and will try for Astronomy next.

Now at 1600's, and pretty happy with progress. REX and cottage spam have paid off and I have the largest land area and pop and probably the fastest science rate.

Current status - researching electricity on a beeline to mass media.

Current thoughts (spoilers)

From from the earlier love fest, the AIs have warred extensively (I have stirred them up of course). Diplomatic win is very much on - allying with Ramses, Ragnar and Mao. Also may get Tokunaga's vote although his war with Ramses makes that a bit tough - I had to stop trading with him (lesson for self - if you friends start fighting amongst themselves, better to stop trading with them yourself rather than wait to be asked. Resume trading after the war.)

Opponent is looking to be Mehmed which is ideal as my allies don't like him much. Julius Caesar is hated by all after I stirred up most of the continent against him. Hopefully Ramses who has the tech lead won't surpass Mehmed in pop.

Now in 1800's and heading for space race which I will easily win, but probably not until early 1900's which isn't great for space on Monarch.


Diplomatic became near impossible when Ragnar attacked Ramses who had the stupidity to switch out of Buddism. I probably should have managed this better and bribed Ragnar to attack someone else earlier. Thats the problem with Epic speed - I get sucked into just clicking next turn because it takes so many turns for anything to happen.

I was tempted to try and nuke anyone who wouldn't vote for me down to the stone age - but decided to play for a space race instead. Its a foregone conclusion at this point so I might go back and try the nuclear option.

My goals for this segment of the game were to continue expansion while maintaining at least a 40% research rate and taking the barbarian city to the south.

Early on, I got somewhat good news from Lord McCaulay:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/95757/515ranking.jpg

Second in land! Maybe things won't be so bad!

I set one city to unit building, two to settlers and workers, and everything new got ikhandas and courthouses (in order to keep the research rate high). Along the way, I successfully snagged the Colossus in my shrine city. I built an army of three cats and three axes to take out Saxony (at 50% defense), then farmed the units out to fogbusting and happiness chores. With the ivory, I built a few war elephants, thinking that they are almost respectable against knights that might come with a quick invasion fleet.

The tech plan:
iron working (for the jungle cities that were quickly coming)
->masonry (needed for construction)
->construction (for cats)
->civil service (for bureaucracy and general usefulness)
->currency (because my research rate was hurting)

One judgment call I am already second guessing: using the scientist I generated to make an academy (better general benefit) rather than lightbulbing philosophy. My thinking was that, since I wasn't running an SE or even much of a hybrid, that pacifism wouldn't be an interesting civic choice anyway, and I think taoism had been founded (not that I necessarily wanted another religion--best to have the rest of the world disunited).

In 1160, we saw strange ships off of our eastern coast:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/95757/MaoFirstContact.jpg

So: just how far behind am I?

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/95757/Maotradescreen.jpg

Really only seven techs behind, as I am one turn away from currency. Still not very good.

So I take this moment to make an assessment: how well am I doing?

In terms of early expansion, not so well as I had hoped. My goal was to fill up the continent by first contact, and I am still somewhat short of that goal, although the best spots (aside from the spot in the northeast I call clam island) are claimed:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/95757/Shaka1160Map.jpg

And what about my demographics? Here, it's a mixed bag with reason for optimism:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/95757/Shaka_1160demographics.jpg

So, first in land, and last in people. There's only room to go up.

I had been hoping to make a break out war of aggression, although my habits are those of a builder, not a fighter. That said, I have some catching up to do before I can even think about war--astronomy and chemistry are a long way off, and I don't want to invade and face cavalry and infantry if I do. But with such a huge island and the potential for a large economy, I think space race is the most doable, with a post-liberalism diplomatic win also a possibility depending on how the population and religion issues go.

Whatever victory I eventually pursue, I will need some defenses and some trade in the near term. I need to see if a race for liberalism is possible (doubtful, but I need education anyway, and liberalism for free religion would help with research and diplomacy, so it's a worthwhile path in any event).


Here's the save file, for those who would like to go from here (or critique things so far):

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/95757/Lonely_Shaka_AD-1160.CivWarlordsSave

Quite different city locations from me. I had two cities up in the north sharing the copper - one was my GP farm and later Ironworks with copper, lots of floodplains and hills, and the other was my HE city with the whale/silver/pig.

And then one city between your two North East cities that was my second commerce city. My third commerce city was one East of your Nongoma city to share the capitals pig since the capital had so much food. Both were running a lot of cottages by then.

Looking at where you are, you made contact a lot later than I did. I probably had a similar size and number of cities at this point in the game but I was probably ahead from being able to trade earlier and I think I had a lot more cottages by then.

I think the academy was a better choice. But you probably need some great scientists soon for lightbulbing and you will probably need to lightbulb Education before you have anything the AI will want to trade for. Can you get three Great Scientists quickly? What I did was assign two scientists in each of three cities which then produced a steady flow for my first three great scientists. Then they went back to cottages.

The others should come calling soon, so I would completely forget about MetalCasting/Machinery/Optics and concentrate on your economy and getting into a position where you can trade. It is probably good to wait until they all arrive before you pick trading partners (you probably won't have anything to trade for a while anyway).

I would prioritize Alphabet and Literature, to get a mini GP farm operating somewhere as you will need some great people to catch up. Then head straight for Education. You won't get Liberalism, but the idea is to get ahead of the AI by researching deep into the tree so you can trade.

I would forget a military win at this point. You won't beat the AI's to to the renaissance military techs. Space and Diplomatic are very much on. Cultural is doable, but I think space is the best option. Once this continent is fully claimed you should be #1 in land. When it is covered in cottages you will be #1 in research. And the AI suck at attacking long distance.

@ willpax and lurkers


Well, things aren't looking so bad, aren't they? I was expecting a 8 tech gap at first contact... 7 is good. Some issues:

Techs : We almost have currency. Good :goodjob: . Now we need to strengten our economy and in the way get Optics ( Machinery, Guilds, Compass, Optics, Banking: the southern route). Too bad we don't have nothing to trade with Mao... Lets see it there is someone less advanced to appear.

Civics: As they are. We still need slavery for those Ikhandas and Courthouses.

Cities: We need to fill the island before any other civ gets astro ( the last thing that you need is a city of the games big dog in your island, giving you a close borders minus with him). We are at almost 50% :science: ( at least after next turn) and with the incoming Courthouses in the south ( maybe :whipped: could help ) you can afford some more cities. Some sugestions:

2N 1E of sugar

1W or 1N 1W of the lonely elephant

2N 1W or 3N 1W of the horses

1N of the western sheep (grabs iron too)

1S or 1S 1E of clam ( your clam island city)

1W or 1S 1W of the eastern fish ( not needed for filling, but can be useful for the pop)

Workers: 5 workers for 9 cities is not a good ratio. You need some more for the jungle clearance in the south.

Victories: Space is a possibility, specialy after the Emancipation jump. Diplo can be done too ( Biology will make you #1 in pop, must surely). Too late for cultural. Maybe Conquest or Dom can be possible ( we still need to see the rest of the world, but a late conquest war could be attainable )

In three words : ReX , cottage, economy.

EDIT : Did you ear any GG anoucements ( war between AI)? Or the Liberalism discovery ( that would be bad news... AI loves to grab Astro as the freebie) ?

Keep on the good work :goodjob: !


@ InvisibleStalke

Have you already finished your game? I would like to compare it with mine ( You followed a completely different route from mine).

Been playing along slowly, got up to 1560 ad, still trailing badly but not yet downhearted.


This was my original dotmap back in 2050bc:
http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g166/pigswill-2006/lh2a0000.jpg
Space for 15 cities according to this map (including some significant overlaps).

By 1000ad I'd got three GS. I used the first for philosophy sling in 20ad, spread taoism a bit then switched to pacifism. I'd gone for CoL earlier but missed on confu, despite this I ran slavery with pacifism which certainly helped with GS production.
I used the second GS for academy in the capital, and researched optics prereqs the hard way before lightbulbing optics in 920ad.
Started meeting other civs by 1000ad, traded for poly, monarchy, currency and alphabet in 995. (Other trades followed later). By 1000ad I'd built 8 of 15 planned cities so quite a long way to go.

@ willpax and lurkers
Now we need to strengten our economy and in the way get Optics ( Machinery, Guilds, Compass, Optics, Banking: the southern route). Too bad we don't have nothing to trade with Mao... Lets see it there is someone less advanced to appear.


I would leave the southern route alone - it doesn't get you faster to Democracy and the pressure for early Optics is gone now that the AI's have it. Go for Education, Liberalism and Democracy. (You will probably not win Liberalism - I didn't - but you still need to get some techs to trade and you need Democracy.


In three words : ReX , cottage, economy.


Yes!!


@ InvisibleStalke

Have you already finished your game? I would like to compare it with mine ( You followed a completely different route from mine).

No - its no further advanced than my last post. I am unstoppable for a spaceship win - already have most of the techs.

One interesting thing out of this game is that for the first time ever I am loving Environmentalism. The extra happy and health is very much appreciated.

R_Rolo1,

Looking at our two games, it will be interesting to compare. I'll let you know my launch date.

I think the strategy either has to be:

1) Commit yourself to early optics and push relentlessly towards it.
2) Commit yourself to your economy and let the AI's find you.

Working on your economy and then going for Optics seems a waste as you won't get there first and you could have advanced your economy further.

The main thing I wished I had done differently in the early game was get an early GS for an academy in my capital. I didn't get my academy until around Optics.

Other than that I could probably have done better by either focussing more on a Diplomatic win (including nuclear diplomacy and a better choice of friends) or not pursuing diplomatic at all which would have given me more trading options and I could have skipped mass media and UN.

I would leave the southern route alone - it doesn't get you faster to Democracy and the pressure for early Optics is gone now that the AI's have it. Go for Education, Liberalism and Democracy. (You will probably not win Liberalism - I didn't - but you still need to get some techs to trade and you need Democracy.

I suggested the southern route because of the economic buildings and of Merc ( you're already isolated...). I'm not sure that a hard beeline to Democracy would be advisable.


One interesting thing out of this game is that for the first time ever I am loving Environmentalism. The extra happy and health is very much appreciated.

Me too. That extra :health: helps a lot ( I maintained a lot of forests ( for the :health: bonus) so it was even better)

I suggested the southern route because of the economic buildings and of Merc ( you're already isolated...). I'm not sure that a hard beeline to Democracy would be advisable.


I'd like to see the effect of forgoing the Optics race. At this point in the game we have only a few turns devoted to metal casting so forgoing this race and letting the AIs find us would be a good strategy to compare with the approaches we both took.

I am not sure that grocers and mercantilism will help us as much as universities. The problem is that we are simply a long way behind in tech and need to self-research to the point we can trade.

The main reason for going in the Education direction though is that we can get there through lightbulbing scientists which is pretty efficient. Since we don't have machinery then we can lightbulb philosophy, paper, education and liberalism. Its unlikely that we will win the race, but chances are fair that both education and liberalism could be traded to someone.

Liberalism lets us run free religion for +10% research which is a great help since we have no religion. Add +25% to research for the university and I think that will help a lot.

The science slider is fairly low right now - and we need to finish REXing in a hurry so it may go lower. That may make lightbulbing the most efficient form of research we have in the short term.

R_Rolo1,
I think the strategy either has to be:

1) Commit yourself to early optics and push relentlessly towards it.
2) Commit yourself to your economy and let the AI's find you.

Working on your economy and then going for Optics seems a waste as you won't get there first and you could have advanced your economy further.


I think this will probably go into the "lessons learned" section pretty much verbatim. Especially with the slow-starting cottage economy, it seems that you need to see the isolation as a chance to lay the foundations for an economic powerhouse post-liberalism (because you won't have a chance otherwise).

Some experiments for future games might include trying a civ that could mount an effective specialist economy, which shines exactly when one is isolated (although the lack of tech trading hurts that strategy, it might be a better way to REX), as well as a smaller opening landmass. Or does isolation nearly always mean that you will have a large area to spread out into?

Usually I have had a decent sized landmass when isolated. The HC game was one of the smaller that I've seen.

Themes for this round: guess who's coming to dinner, build and expand, and teching toward liberalism.

Tech pattern: alphabet-->paper-->education-->philosophy-->liberalism

Finished by 1532.

Guess who's coming to dinner? Ragnar, that bloodthirsty Taoist, comes in 1184. Mao gets the circumnavigation bonus in 1220. In 1238, we encounter the Hindu Mehmed--three civs, three different religions (although Mao doesn't have the shrine, the other two do for their faiths).

In 1280, we find Tokugawa, who has Mao's Buddhist shrine.

In 1304, we get our next great person: a merchant (thank you, Colossus!). With no galleon, a mission won't be happening, so we can either settle for the money and food or lightbulb machinery, which would mess up scientist lightbulbing on the liberalism track. At the moment, I was almost halfway through education anyway, and saw that I was about 50 turns away from another great person--I would already have liberalism by around that time, anyway. So I took the lightbulb, although a settled merchant is a wonderful thing.

1322: Japan asks for our help against the Chinese. Just what kind of help does he think we will provide? Vigorous cheerleading from our jungle filled shores? That same year, "a distant civilization" discovers Liberalism.

In 1364, we encounter Buddhist Julius Caesar and get an open borders agreement; with three civs, the Buddhist bloc needs to be reckoned with. Rome immediately demands our map as tribute. With the map out, I seel the same map to Tokugawa and Mao for 140 gold.

In 1442, I finish philosophy and head toward liberalism, with the tech slider down to 30% for profit and a time of 18-23 turns. During this stretch, several courthouses kick in to shave some time off of that.

In 1478, we meet Ramesses II. Look upon his works, ye mighty, and despair:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/95757/RamessesTechTrade.jpg

He's Christian, he's advanced, and he's been building lots of wonders.

In 1532, I discover liberalism and convert to free speech and free religion (the only advanced religious civic I have run). I've paused during the anarchy for an assessment.

Here's the (now filled in) continent:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/95757/LonelyShaka1532map.jpg

I'm slowly cutting away the jungle with a new round of worker building, and most of my cities have some good room to grow. 14 cities puts me at the top in terms of land (although I am still last in terms of population). Here's the demographics chart:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/95757/LonelyShaka1532demographics.jpg

Up to second in GNP and crop yield--this economy should grow quite nicely, although the tech gap is somewhat large.

Diplomatically, it seems that Ramesses, Tokugawa, and Caesar get along well, so it makes sense to try to placate that group.

Current question about teching seems to be the normal one at this stage: beeline to chemistry, astronomy, or democracy? Ramesses already has astronomy, but offers only money for resources. A democracy beeline could begin with printing press, which gives a cottage economy a bit of a boost and might provide some trade fodder. Hmmm.

Here's the save file:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/95757/Lonely_Shaka_AD-1532.CivWarlordsSave

I agree with printing press to democracy. You can lightbulb it if you get a GP in time and its good trading material. Your key to victory will be emancipation - getting those cottages into towns.

You can't rush to chemistry without going through gunpowder and engineering both of which you might be able to trade printing press for anyway if all the AIs don't have it yet - leaving you open to lightbulb chemistry after printing press.

If you can trade printing press for gunpowder and engineering, then you might be wise to go chemistry next hoping to trade it for nationalism and maybe even constitution. If you are behind the AI don't bother though - just head straight for democracy.

Astronomy would be nice, but you have a lot of techs to go and you are better off trading for these techs and researching techs the AIs don't have yet. The techs on the way to Astronomy won't help you catch up - and you really need to catch up.

BTW - well done with the REX. The continent looks good and I think your science rate will be steadily climbing from here. If you are 2nd in GDP now just imagine where you will be in a few hundred years.

@ willpax and lurkers


Things are looking promissing. We filled the continent and the cottage spamming is looking promissing. When you get PP and Democracy your cottage economy will shine ( my bet is that you will pass the AI before the Apollo program, unless... ALC 15 :( ). A few regards:

Techs: Of the options you showed the Democracy beeline is IMHO the best move. We need cottage money ASAP and US helps a lot. And probably some civs are near of getting Demo and adopt Emancipation ( that can be a drag to you). But to beeline to Demo you'll need to be below the radar scope of the AI ( your move to FR was wise... you aren't the worst enemy of anyone). You can trade PP of the Ottoman guy and some more techs ( Philo + Education vs PP + Compass ( harbors) + Drama ( theaters... You'll need those when you pass to US) ) but trading with the lonely hindy guy may not be a good move.

Other civs: Two main concerns: Ragnar and Ramesses. Ragnar most surely has Rifling ( look at the power graph.. that sharp peak is unmistakeble ) and Ramesses has Sankore and Spiral Minaret ( Religion Economy) and he is Industrious; if he gets first to Apollo we may be in trouble because of the Space Elevator and of the Three Gorges Dam. We can only hope that their war could be a help to us. Just don't buddie with any of those.

Victories: Still the same as round 3: Space, Diplo ( I'm betting that Ramesses will build it), Conquest/Dom ( hard but maybe attainable ( we still need to see the world map)).

The hard part is done. We have a big empire with mature cottages, and they are starting to shine. Just don't get invaded ( in this game is easily avoidable because the outer world is quite fractured in religious terms, but not in terrain: Mao makes border with ceasar and Ramesses; Ceasar makes border with Mao, Ramesses and toku; Ramesses makes border with Mao, Ceasar, Toku and Ragnar; Ragnar makes border with Ramesses and and Toku; Toku makes border with Ceasar, Ramesses and Ragnar ( just look at the Close borders minus) Mehmed has no colse borders minus with anyone, but doesn't look to be isolated ( his tech level is too big for that); maybe he is in a nearby island or something like it. May is hard to diplo in this mess but is easy to not be the main target of the AI.

Offtopic: May I suggest traits for lonely heart 3? For me we should test one or two of this traits : Philosophical ( for the GPP bonus), Organized (for the cheap courthouses and Beaurocracy) and Charismatic (for the :) bonus ). Maybe combining two of them may be interesting : Frederick (Phi/Org) or Napoleon (Org/Cha). Both of them have another feature that we need to test: how to cope the barb problem without a good early UU ( like we had so far)

I don't really see the value of charismatic, maybe I'm missing something. Philosophical would be good, organised was tried with ALC 15 shadows (and worked well). You don't need an early UU to fogbust, warriors or even scouts can do the business. Warriors are better because you can then use them for initial garrisons. You just need units you can build and get in place quickly.

peter? or would that be too similar to this one? I would realy like to see a lightbulb to astronomy game(and maybe scientific method -> electricity -> mass media UN win). Any philosophical or even industrial leader could work too though. As long as you dont actually adopt an religion and do a bit good trading / relationmongering later you should do fine. As for this game doing anything but a space win at this point seems kinda hard...

@ pigswill

Char = extra :) = less need for "happy units" = less maitenance.

I agree with you about the warrior fog busting. But no one can deny that the fact of having a nice early UU was helpful in barb killing on this games ( at least for me ,Impis helped a lot ). Warrior can't cope easily a axeman attack, even on forest hills, and it may take a while to fogbust the whole island. On the other hand, it would be good to try a diferent thing.

P.S Imp is a weak trait IMHO, but the bonus on the settler could be useful on REXing. Thoughts?

@ oyzar

I don't believe that peter in isolation would be equal to Shaka. My first thougth on strats with an isolated peter would be a SE and lightbulb to Lib, grabing Astro ( like you said ), far diferent of the willpax and already posted games ( all cottage based ). I do believe that this Shaka game would cope a SE path (in spite of not having a stellar place for a GP farm, the land has some decent food places , including the capitol), none of the games so far has showed a SE ( it would be fun to compare).
Peter would be fine for a test on a SE aproach to the isolation problem, like Frederick ( maybe even better... that :health: bonus is a lifesaver). But willpax has the final word on this.

Astronomy beeline is fairly straightforward, simply avoid CS and theology, get optics, trade for calendar and you lightbulb astronomy next.
Its actually better to run a hybrid economy; two or three GS farms for compass, optics and astronomy; you also need beakers for IW,sailing, MC and machinery.
This is basically the strategy I employed in HC2 and this game though with the exception of diverting to CoL for philosophy slingshot and running pacifism to speed up GS production. Parthenon is also worth doing if you've got marble (like HC2); if you had a philosophical leader then you could probably miss out CoL/philosophy bypass and get to astronomy quicker.

IW,sailing, MC and machinery <-- all of those are perfectly fine lightbulbable... though your likely reaserching at least some of them... You can ofc do lib for astronomy or scientific method or something cause you need paper anyways and education helps with universeties.

RRolo,

Finished my shadow game last night. Launched in 1895 for 18785 points. Not too bad for a launch date, but a lower score than I was expecting.

My vote for a leader to try next is Elizabeth, if only because we can try several different strategies in parallel with the same start:

- Lightbulb to Astronomy
- Lightbulb to Liberalism (and let them find us)
- Cottage spam
- Specialist economy

But I have one huge plea to make. I really really don't want to play another isolated start on Epic. Normal speed would be much more fun - even quick could be considered.

@ InvisibleStalke

Not so bad ( better than me :( (mine was in 1934)). Post the save when you can, please.

About Elizabeth.... Phi/Fin may work well, and having diferent strategies tested would be educational. The only problem is the diferent levels of game finesse that the players participating here have ( I'm the worst, methinks :( ( shouldn't had started to play in warlord... got too many bad habits)).

I do believe that playing normal speed would be fine ( is out of my confort zone, but I can live with that) .Quick is just too quick for me....

I normally play Emperor and am thinking of trying Immortal, so in going down to Monarch I am well within my comfort zone. I'd be keen to try an Isolated start in Emperor too - its a pity you can't take a starting save and switch the leader and difficulty level. I'm also happy to try some more unorthodox strategies and see if they work.

The main themes of this round: expanding the economy and attempting to catch up on tech--the latter could be difficult with a runaway Ramesses in play.

As previously decided, we started with printing press. Along the way, we finally got our first trade, with Mehmed: calendar, engineering, polytheism, a world map (something I wanted) and the spare change under his couch for education. On the resource front, Mao and Ramesses were the only civs with astronomy for a long time; Mao traded cow for ivory, a deal I really liked.

The very next turn, Mehmed would give compass, feudalism, and monotheism for liberalism, and that was it for that round of trading. Interestingly, Mehmed offered nothing for Nationalism after I researched it in 1605.

The other continent seemed embroiled in almost constant warfare, which I kept out of. In 1607, Caesar adopted emancipation, and one other civ followed, creating a big happiness problem in my larger cities as I worked through constitution (finished in 1630) and democracy (fininshed in 1670, followed by an immediate revolution into universal suffrage and emancipation). Without hereditary rule, happiness problems would continue leading me to research drama (only one turn at this point) to resort to the slider for a brief period of time.

Mehmed would take democracy for guilds (more health), gunpowder, horseback riding, and 60 gold, after which I earned the anticipated WFYABTA (yes, I am now in the top half on the power graph!). My self-research path lost focus here as I addressed smaller immediate needs (drama, literature, optics for whale happiness, then chemistry to start working on defenses). I wonder if periods like this are what keep me from 19th century spaceship launches.

Some luck in 1715: we discover gems in mines our people have been working for thousands of years. Would that we could have discovered them earlier. . . but still, the whale and the gems help, as does the importation of religions into cities intentionally left without them: we gained Islam and Christianity, and began spreading them to our larger cities for the happiness bonuses under free religion.

After chemistry, I research astronomy. When researched, I gain 30 gold/turn from the overseas trade routes alone with the research slider set to 70%. Note to self: astronomy is an important part of economy building; research it earlier.

I finish off the economics focus with economics and corporation. In 1758, Ramesses offers broadway musicals for fish. I take it, muttering about how technologically backward I still am.

I go for scientific method and biology, a tech which none of the AIs seem to have. Biology nets me steel from Mao and steam power from Caesar. I follow up with replaceable parts, hoping to get a bit more out of the massive forests to the north of the capital. Then, I decided to stop and take a break. I've made some mistakes--neglecting to grow a great prophet for a Confucian shrine is probably the biggest, as that could have been an easy 10 gold/turn had I been thinking.

Despite bonehead moves like that, things are looking good--not InvisibleStalke good, but good:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/95757/LonelyShaka1798map.jpg

Here is my current city activity:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/95757/LonelyShakaCityList1798.jpg

And the rather impressive demographics screen, showing my total economic dominance even with a middle-of-the-pack population:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/95757/LonelyShakaDemograpics1798.jpg

I plan on going for a computer-first space race given that I am still 4-6 techs behind the leaders. The next round should be fairly straightforward if I can avoid an invasion--so far, no one is less than cautious toward me, so the careful diplomacy seems to be paying off.

The save file:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/95757/Lonely_Shaka_AD-1798.CivWarlordsSave

I'm leaning toward normal speed on the next one as well. The space race takes such a long time on epic. And it takes me even longer than it seems to take you--I'll have to look very closely at how you managed.

As for civs, I can see any of these three as offering an interesting change of pace:

Elizabeth (philosophical and financial) makes for the ultimate hybrid economy: three GP farms or so while cottaging the rest, and the stock exchange UB (+15% wealth from commerce) kicks things into a higher around the time an isolated start would be playing catch-up. The redcoat may not see much action, but could be a good defense post-astronomy.

Frederick (organized and philosophical) has a bonus for the SE and cheap courthouses and civic upkeep, meaning that an isolated economy shouldn't be as expensive to maintain. Both the assembly plant (+2 engineers, +50% with coal) and the panzer come after contact, so won't play a factor until the endgame.

Peter's (expansive and philosophical) health bonus will be even bigger on an isolated start, and will come into play with the bigger cities that you want to get to while isolated. The UB laboratory (+2 free scientists) allows for a decent great person production even post-liberalism.

I like all three leaders--since I play one city challenges quite often, I find myself playing Peter off line quite a bit, which might lead me to prefer one of the other two for this game. I'm happy to be swayed in one direction o the other. I'm not picky, and will probably be playing through some starts after I finish this game and the GOTM.

I've attached two savegames. The first is when I built my first caravel, the second is the turn after winning.

I think you are in a pretty good position to win from here. Try beelining Computers next. If you still feel you are behind in tech go to Fibre Optics after that and build the Internet. Remember its a tech race to win and the AI slow down a lot on the final techs.

You probably meandered quite a bit more around the tech tree than I would have - after steel I think I went scimethod, physics, electricity, radio and then mass media, trading my beelined techs for others along the way. I did reach the "You are too advanced" status too, but the beeline gets you into a new age and you can work a couple of AIs to friendly to keep trading going.

I agree with InvisibleStalke. Computers beeline is you best shot ( it will give the final push into research, that will be your bottleneck in space race (not production). On the other hand, I don't think that you'll need badly of internet but having it may be a lifesaver ( I´ve got it in my game and gave me 2 space techs ). Curiously I never got the "too advanced" status to anyone (not a lot of tech trades in the beginning ( no techs from my side to trade ) and no tech trading in the end ( AI don't trades space techs :mad: ). I was only able to trade techs in the industrial age. And because of that I needed to wander a bit in the tech tree ( for Drama, at least), and that forced me to beeline Rocketry, not Computers (another mistake of mine...).
In short words: the game is almost won ( if you manage to stay out of the diplo mess on the main continent ) if you beeline Computers ( AI normally aren't bright enough to do that; they love Mass Media and Satellites ). Go for it.

@ InvisibleStalke

Impressive game. Nice teching ( 4 turns to Future tech in 1895? I really need to learn something...). You really don't worried about getting a religion ( in my offline attempt I tried to do that, with poor results) and have less concerns about city :) than me. You had some extra luck too ( two geminated cooper mines? :eek: I only got two extra gold mines late in game (If it was early ...)) but your game is far better than mine. Maybe a hard beeline to Optics is a better move in Isolation than developing alone...

I also tried this game yesterday (didn't know before that lonely heart clubs thread meant open game with isolated start playing). I launched in 1893 for a score of 20160. I beelined for liberalism could get it around 1000 AD , then had a decision to make if i'd just take nationalism (which i use to do when i play immortal) or research Machinery, Optics so that i could take Astronomy. Since it's monarch i guessed i could make it in time and that proved to be right got lib around 1200. Met Mehmet. Ramesses and Ragnar first, they had a bunch of techs like currency, music, guilds engineering etc on me. Traded for education and liberalism so i was virtually astro ahead when i met them. Nothing really extraordinary happened , i won economics race got 4000 gold which enabled me to research at 100 % for 40 turns in which i built up a huge tech lead, beelined to computers for more research and refrigeration, genetics (!) for much needed health. At that time the others still didn't have physics.
After that space race was easy and a bit boring. I hardly traded with the other Ai's. I could have gone space sooner i think if i had gifted the AI's some tech so they could catch up and research some techs for me. As it is i only got railroad and democracy from them. Don't have saves unfortunately because i started a new game today which lost all the autosaves.

Isolated start and monarch are relaxing to play so i certainly join next game.
My favorite leader for this would be Elisabeth, Philosophical and Financial are the strongest traits IMO even more so on an isolated start. I prefer normal speed on these sort of starts unless we impose that victory should be domination.

Got up to 1730. Picked up democracy in 1655, running a mere 650 beakers/turn. Still well behind on techs:

http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g166/pigswill-2006/ls2b0000.jpg

Cities are still small and not growing very quickly:
http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g166/pigswill-2006/ls2a0000.jpg

On the other hand AIs are busy fighting. Mao and Mehmed vs Ramesses and Jules. Ragnar vs Ramesses. Tok neutral but slowly falling behind. Still a lot of teching to be done.

@ InvisibleStalke

Impressive game. Nice teching ( 4 turns to Future tech in 1895? I really need to learn something...). You really don't worried about getting a religion ( in my offline attempt I tried to do that, with poor results) and have less concerns about city :) than me. You had some extra luck too ( two geminated cooper mines? :eek: I only got two extra gold mines late in game (If it was early ...)) but your game is far better than mine. Maybe a hard beeline to Optics is a better move in Isolation than developing alone...

Dirk1302 had a great game based on developing first, so that may still be better than a hard beeline. I think the main thing is either to develop first up to Liberalism, OR do a hard beeline, but don't be halfhearted and do a mixture of both.

I could definitely have done better in my game with an early academy and not wasting time going for a diplomatic win with the situation so messy on the main continent.

I didn't worry about a religion at all - my starting techs and bonuses didn't suit it and it allowed me to shave a lot of techs off my beelines. With religions I think you either need to pursue them heavily and invest in lots of missionaries, or not bother. It seemed to work fine to just rely on HR for happiness.

I don't think the extra copper mines made much difference - I'd rather have had a gold mine or gems that could help with happiness and research.

I also tried this game yesterday (didn't know before that lonely heart clubs thread meant open game with isolated start playing). I launched in 1893 for a score of 20160. I beelined for liberalism could get it around 1000 AD , then had a decision to make if i'd just take nationalism (which i use to do when i play immortal) or research Machinery, Optics so that i could take Astronomy. Since it's monarch i guessed i could make it in time and that proved to be right got lib around 1200. Met Mehmet. Ramesses and Ragnar first, they had a bunch of techs like currency, music, guilds engineering etc on me. Traded for education and liberalism so i was virtually astro ahead when i met them. Nothing really extraordinary happened , i won economics race got 4000 gold which enabled me to research at 100 % for 40 turns in which i built up a huge tech lead, beelined to computers for more research and refrigeration, genetics (!) for much needed health. At that time the others still didn't have physics.
After that space race was easy and a bit boring. I hardly traded with the other Ai's. I could have gone space sooner i think if i had gifted the AI's some tech so they could catch up and research some techs for me. As it is i only got railroad and democracy from them. Don't have saves unfortunately because i started a new game today which lost all the autosaves.

Isolated start and monarch are relaxing to play so i certainly join next game.
My favorite leader for this would be Elisabeth, Philosophical and Financial are the strongest traits IMO even more so on an isolated start. I prefer normal speed on these sort of starts unless we impose that victory should be domination.

Impressive result. How did you play the liberalism race? Lots of lightbulbing? Cottages?

Mostly cottages which i planted extremely early and worked diligently. Also chopped GL and was pacifist (i founded confucianism) for some time so i bulbed paper and philo, researched education myself. When education was researched it was 12 turns to lib and next GS would appear in 10 turns. If i had decided there and then to go for astro i would have researched sailing, compass and calender ,bulbing most of lib with the GS, after this i could have researched machinery optics and the rest of lib, that would have been elegant .I didn't think of this at the time so i took of the scientists to work more cottages, researched lib till one turn was left then decided to to go for astro anyway because nationalism was useless.

Its not completely useless since its on the path to democracy. If you were far enough ahead, getting democracy from liberaism might have been an option too.

Yes that would have worked as the other didn't even have education when i met them but i'm not as fond of Democracy as some others are. I only build cottages at the beginning of the game to fund early research and expansion emphasising the capital and some early cities with rivers. These cottages have matured into towns long before democracy. Captured Ai cities also use to have mature towns. I think that even with emancipation growing late cottages takes too long (aside from the huge loss of slavery which i need badly mid game for whipping the infra) so i farm some squares (almost as good as a cottage after biology/constitution one grassland square supports one scientist/merchant = 6 science or 3 science/3 gold) and built workshops and watermills on the rest of the squares.This way new squares immeduately give a good profit. I always prioritize communism/electricity in research and run state property.

Universal suffrage is an interesting civic but i find i can't afford it most of the time due to happiness issues. These could be resolved by also running emancipation but i think whipping the buildings is still a lot faster than building them with the extra hammer/cottage. US would be great for the capital but it doesn't do so much for my other cities usually. Still i haven't tested it that much so i might plan for it in one of my next games (by building more cottages) see if this really gives decent production.

I found US very powerful in the late game. It takes care of the hammer requirements to build infrastructure in your cottage cities so you can work as many cottages as you can and don't have to waste citizens working other improvements. You don't even need farms once you grow to work all your tiles.

The other nice thing about US is you get maximum utility from a late game golden age - every cottage then produces 2 hammers. It makes building the cheaper spaceship parts in your cottage cities quite viable meaning you can finish a lot of parts in a hurry, esp since these cities all have labs - important to me because I usually prioritize computers over rocketry and build all my parts in a rush at the end.

Under emancipation on standard speed it takes only 35 turns for a cottage to mature - that isn't very long at all.

Happiness is a problem. Usually when I get to run US I have enough resources that the problem solves itself. However in the isolated start I did end up running 10% on the culture slider for much of the game and did go for the late game happiness wonders. Once I had the Eiffel tower it pretty much was solved.

Not sure that communism would have helped me much - I ended up with Environmentalism because I desperately needed health.

Not sure that that is any more effective than your strategy though since you had an excellent time. My time ended up being quite a bit slower than it could have been as I pursued a diplomatic win - which meant I prioritized UN and was running less optimal civics hoping that I could gather enough votes from the AIs. Then they all went to war with each other and it went to custard.

Good point about the golden age, that would be far more effective with lots of cots than with workshops. I'll try this strat cottaging everything also mid and late game running emancipation and US in the near future.

About communism and state property, you have to plan for this civic. The reduction in cost is nice but in itself probably isn't worth the loss of a trade route. If you have lots of watermills and workshops though it's huge.

Environmentalism is a nice way to deal with the health issue, i can't remember ever having chosen this civic voluntarily. It could go well with an all out cottage strat (where you don't need state prop) +6 health is a lot indeed 3 extra specialists/city if you have enough happiness.

We'll soon see the diference between SP, Enviromentalism and FM in this game. InvisibleStalke used Enviromentalism, I used FM ( but used forced Enviromentalism in my offline attempt ) and I believe that willpax is preparing to use SP (he is building Ironworks on heavy watermilled city, so he must be trying the Sisiutil Riverside Ironworks ( that works with SP )
IMHO Enviromentalism >> FM in isolation, because the main problem in isolation is :health: ,not :) and more :health: = more pop = more worked tiles or more specialists ( depends of your aproach ).

I solved the health issue with early refrigeration and genetics, i had quite a few happy problems due to the resulting big cities though and was forced into emancipation eventually.

Yeah, 7+ :mad: " we demand Emancipation" is quite a drag. I didn't had much of :) problems: The AI in my game were kind enough to send me waves of missionaries ( I believe that they were trying to drag me into their religious wars :lol: ), so when I swithed to FR I only needed to have a 10/20 % :culture: to overcome the HR -> US hiatus ( I wasn't the first to get to Democracy,but I was the third to adopt it so no big Emancipation problems ). And Rock and Roll + Eiffel Tower resolved all my :) issues until the end of the game.

We'll soon see the diference between SP, Enviromentalism and FM in this game. InvisibleStalke used Enviromentalism, I used FM ( but used forced Enviromentalism in my offline attempt ) and I believe that willpax is preparing to use SP (he is building Ironworks on heavy watermilled city, so he must be trying the Sisiutil Riverside Ironworks ( that works with SP )
IMHO Enviromentalism >> FM in isolation, because the main problem in isolation is :health: ,not :) and more :health: = more pop = more worked tiles or more specialists ( depends of your aproach ).

I've been playing out the space race, and I'm so far ahead in tech that I think I would lose more from the anarchy than I would gain from the shorter build times for the big parts from a switch to State Property. I have an unreasoning love of the "liberty" civics--Universal Suffrage, Free Speech and Religion, and (usually) Free Market--although, with isolated starts, I often have a hard time breaking into already-established resource trading networks to get the health resources I need. In this game, the flood-plain centered economy pretty much needs environmentalism (the civic allows me to grow the capital big enough to work all six lumber mills on top of the cottages while running scientists on top of that). So I agree with the benefits of environmentalism in this approach--and the water mill city still is my #2 production city, after the enivronmentally sustainable logging around the capital. Our spaceship seems to be made of wood and mud.

Yeah, 7+ :mad: " we demand Emancipation" is quite a drag. I didn't had much of :) problems: The AI in my game were kind enough to send me waves of missionaries ( I believe that they were trying to drag me into their religious wars :lol: ), so when I swithed to FR I only needed to have a 10/20 % :culture: to overcome the HR -> US hiatus ( I wasn't the first to get to Democracy,but I was the third to adopt it so no big Emancipation problems ). And Rock and Roll + Eiffel Tower resolved all my :) issues until the end of the game.I had the slider at 0% all game, may be i should have raised it a bit in the end as research was never a problem.

Our spaceship seems to be made of wood and mud.

:lol:

I used a somewhat diferent approach. My Ironworks was in a city 1W from yours, but I left almost all of forests intact ( I even let some of the squares unworked for forests to grow there :crazyeye: ). So, in spite of having forge + factory + coal powerplant + Ironworks + Lab, it never had any :yuck: problems ( maybe I should trademark this : r_rolo1 riverside lumbermill Ironworks ( patent pending ) :lol: ). My Apollo and most of my spaceship were entirely made of lugs :confused: :p
But enviromentalism is indeed much better than a +1 trade route in this kind of :yuck: heavy games. A lesson to keep in mind.

With economic, production, and (almost) population dominance established, remainder of my game was fairly textbook space race. With so many idle cities (the spaceship parts were produced fairly quickly as techs allowed), I indulged in all the wonder building I had denied myself early on, getting Rock n' Roll and the Eiffel Tower (big helps with happiness, especially after trading for the other wonder-happy techs with Ramesses) as well as 3 Gorges (health bonuses), Space Elevator, and the Internet.

The other continent was involved in constant warfare, which I avoided, while trading enough to ensure that no one had a cooler attitude than "cautious." My diversions to military techs were a sign of over-caution, I think; no one seriously threatened warfare, and by the end of the game I was close to average (with plenty of military to stymie a normal-scale AI invasion).

With no military threats to speak of, and the nearest rivals involved in warfare and several spaceship techs off the pace (the Romans were lacking 4 parts and the techs to build them when I launched), the only source of drama in the end was whether or not I would get the entire continent railroaded before the spaceship launched (the workers won by two turns).

The final save:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/95757/AutoSave_AD-1942.CivWarlordsSave

Lessons learned to follow after I read through some of the spoiler posts.

Good point about the golden age, that would be far more effective with lots of cots than with workshops. I'll try this strat cottaging everything also mid and late game running emancipation and US in the near future.

About communism and state property, you have to plan for this civic. The reduction in cost is nice but in itself probably isn't worth the loss of a trade route. If you have lots of watermills and workshops though it's huge.

Environmentalism is a nice way to deal with the health issue, i can't remember ever having chosen this civic voluntarily. It could go well with an all out cottage strat (where you don't need state prop) +6 health is a lot indeed 3 extra specialists/city if you have enough happiness.

I don't normally run Environmentalism either - but I was sick of health problems and thought I'd give it a go. I was pretty happy with the results.

SP financial bonus wouldn't be huge on this map with all the cities fairly close and the capital central. I didn't even build forbidden palace. I didn't see myself as production challenged in the late game either so I didn't bother switching for the extra tiles I could have workshopped. I still think that the late space game is usually a tech race with the win time = (time to research the last tech) + (time to build the last space part that uncovers in your best city).

I agree with tech being the ultimate bottleneck in spaceraces. It's the most expensive part that hurts the most. In my case that's almost always the docking bay from robotics since this is generally the tech that i receive from the Internet (together with plastics).

For the AI's it's often the Stasis chamber from Genetics. That's the tech they research last but one (ecology is last for them but they build life support fast).

1913 Space. Poorly planned and poorly played, not much to learn from this game except initial overexpansion is sub-optimal especially when you ain't competing for land!

Here's the save: http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/90414/Ricardo_Rolo_AD-1913.CivWarlordsSave

Pigswill: I would be interested to figure out what over-expansion looks like--troops on strike?

Looking over the lessons learned:

1. Agressive (but not over-) expansion is a key on an isolated start. One advantage isolation usually gives you is a larger area for uncontested city sites, and the luxury to plan out where to place them for (one hopes) optimal use within your strategy. By having a larger land area (unless one AI civ has tremendous success on the main land), you usually have a better base going into the industrial and modern eras.

2. Decide your path and stick to it. Either tech and build toward the goal of building your economy, or go for an optics push to start trading earlier; you won't be able to do both effectively.

3. Don't go crazy with religions; one is enough. In this game, we saw what a mainland with a lot of religious strife means; AIs slowing each other down and hating each other much more than they hate you. That kind of diplomatic breathing room allowed some to have a smaller modern army and to skip military research in favor of a space race beeline.

With Shaka, we had a civ with few economic advantages: a health bonus and a UB that cut down on maintenance. The health bonus was a big boost, as happiness under hereditary rule is manageable, while resources to alleviate health problems tend to be in short supply. But even under these conditions, the force of greater land, population, and the human ability to optimize economics better than the AI were too much.

I'll start messing around tonight with maps for Elizabeth: fractal, high water, random climate, normal (not epic) speed, monarch difficulty. Elizabeth's traits allow for many different strategies, which might allow us to see some other paths to success than the "cottage everything" approach most have used for these first two games.

Some things I've learned:

Stay small (3-4 cities) till you can afford to expand (currency, CL).

Environmentalism can solve the lack of health/happy resources so go for it early.

Don't bother too much about early religion; might be better to wait for religions to come to you and then choose religion of a dominant civ.

Leave a foggy area until you get a lvl 4 unit from barbs for HE.

Isolated starts don't lead to defeat, you just have to play differently.

May I add one lesson (learned in my offline attempt)?

Isolated starts are much easier if the other civ are in religious wars ( In my offline attempt all but Mehmed were Hindu. I adopted Hinduism as well (didn't want to be the worst enemy of everyone) and signed 3 DP (even with Toku! :eek: ). That allowed me to forget military and focus on the space race. The problem was that everyone else did that, and with massive tech trading between AI, things weren't easy. Only with the Internet I had a chance to dream about space victory, but lost by 5 turns.... I was thinking in diplo as a backside plan, but Ramesses ,the Hindu founder, build it. Result: the votes were almost equally divided between me and Ramesses....)
Elizabeth it is for Lonely 3, isn't it? I'll begin to train :D

@ pigswill

About the number of cities pre -Col : with other leader I would agree with you, but with Shaka's UB you can afford 6 cities without much financial strain. Currency is good,but not so hot as in non isolated starts ( trade routes have less value ).
Can you post the victory save ( just for comparising purposes) ?