Well, I'm a SE addicted, and now I'm trying to play CE. Yes, I know most people start with CE and then try SE, but I've tried SE too early and thus never played a decent game with CE.
"We demand Emancipation" is driving me crazy... :mad:
I'm still on noble, I always win but I think victory is coming too late (earliest victory was domination in 1892). I've already read some tips on speeding up, but when it comes to CE, I cant find anything useful to me.

So... main problems:

- Should I emphasize early growth? Or 2 food surplus is enough and more than that is just a SE-addicted-habit?
- Will my GP Farm be the only GP source? (I'm almost sure it will, except for maybe one GP from Stonehenge.)
- How am I supposed to have a decent GP Farm if it wont have good production sources?
- Any tips for balancing Military cities vs. Commerce cities? In my SE games I usually have 2 military cities until gunpowder shows up, but I think I should have more...
- Any tips for balancing Science cities vs. Money cities?
- What techs should I priorize??? :confused: (I think this is my biggest question, especially on Medieval and later eras)
- Should I start working cottages as soon (and as much) as possible?

Well, thanks in advice :)

Well, I'm a SE addicted, and now I'm trying to play CE. Yes, I know most people start with CE and then try SE, but I've tried SE too early and thus never played a decent game with CE.
"We demand Emancipation" is driving me crazy... :mad:
I'm still on noble, I always win but I think victory is coming too late (earliest victory was domination in 1892). I've already read some tips on speeding up, but when it comes to CE, I cant find anything useful to me.

So... main problems:


- Should I emphasize early growth? Or 2 food surplus is enough and more than that is just a SE-addicted-habit?


Definitely yes - +2 food isn't enough for a cottage economy - try for +4 minimum. +5 is sweet.


- Will my GP Farm be the only GP source? (I'm almost sure it will, except for maybe one GP from Stonehenge.)


Yes it will - I've played SE games where my GP farm was my only GP source too - it simply pulled ahead too fast for other cities to keep up.


- How am I supposed to have a decent GP Farm if it wont have good production sources?


If you are industrious, have a GP farm based on wonders. You don't need to feed them and you can alternate between building wonders quickly and running specialists when there are none to build.

If not, you can run a GP farm either in your capital (not ideal for a cottage economy, but sometimes your capital just demands to be a GP farm) which will usually have good production tiles too - you just have to periodically shut down the farm and work some mines.

Or you can run it later in a captured enemy capital. You will have to use whipping for production and go for periods where you work mines and don't get GPs. But that isn't much different from how you would run a specialist city anyway. The key is that you want your one GP farm to have some good food and some good production tiles.

Late game this city will get some of its production from hiring engineers and priests.


- Any tips for balancing Military cities vs. Commerce cities? In my SE games I usually have 2 military cities until gunpowder shows up, but I think I should have more...


If you have only 2 military cities you aren't really playing an SE game. Essentially every city is a military city just before a war and every city is a research city after one. You may have some specialized hammer cities that can only produce units, but these may be rare - maybe two - one for ironworks and wonders and another for Heroic Epic.

With a CE you are going to need at least two very good production cities, but probably more. Note that a high food city might also be considered a production city until fairly late in the game since you probably won't ever run caste system. I would probably have something like:

1 super science city
1 heroic epic production city
1 other production city aiming for ironworks
1 gp farm

From there I really let the terrain dictate what will be optimal for cities. A lot will be hybrid because they have only a certain number of cottagable tiles and its best to work the special tiles anyway.


- Any tips for balancing Science cities vs. Money cities?


Don't. When you run a CE your slider is how you balance the research/cash.


- What techs should I priorize??? :confused: (I think this is my biggest question, especially on Medieval and later eras)


A CE benefits hugely through:
- Pottery - obviously
- Civil Service
- Education
- Liberalism
- Democracy
- Printing press
- Monarchy - helps you grow big cities that work lots of cottages early


- Should I start working cottages as soon (and as much) as possible?


Not necessarily - grow and work special tiles first. If you have a lot of floodplains early cottages are good as you still grow.

1. You should build all your early cities near a food bonus, so 2 food is a non-issue. But if you do have a patch of grassland with no food or hills around, covering it in cottages is a great choice.

2. Yes

3. Whipping

4. Two is a good number. I usually build the iron works in the one with the best long-term potential, and the heroic epic in the other.

5. Not really. Cottages are so good that you don't need multipliers at all. Once you see it's cost-effective to add buildings, build whatever gives the best benefit for its cost.
You should have at least one academy in your highest commerce city, maybe more if you're blessed with lots of fertile grassland.

6. All worker techs, Construction, Printing Press, Democracy.

7. Bonus resources are more important. But then work on cottages.

- remember that 2 more cottages are better then 1 library; obviously library is good, but don't whip like a maniac...
- caste in ce is underrated;
- 3, better 4 food; depends on lvl. obviously... later on, 4 food will be tops you'll get;
- why wouldn't you have any decent production sources if you make a gp farm? anyway, what you need there is gl and nat. epic; eventually globe theatre, though it's arguable due to ga pollution...
- 2 cities should be more then enough;3-4 post communism, if it's still the case
- there ain't no sci. cities and money cities; the slider is what matters... way less microin'
- later... liberalism, democracy, printing press; basically, what enhances your cottages - free speech, emancipation. Other than that... normal play... Communism and so on...
- work them when you can... it's good to have as many as possible, that's why it's a ce. But ain't vital to work them asap...

I always emphasize commerce with city governor after I begin building cottages because it will work those cottages and make them grow faster. i only take my city off of emphasize commerce if i really need the hammers for war or a wonder/building I really need, but then I put it right back on.

It is also very critical to Prioritize printing press tech, and Democracy tech for universal sufferage and Emancipation Civics, Liberalism tech for Free Speech Civic. Being Financial is a nice boost too.

Grass land/chopped jungle tiles/rivers are your friends when selecting great commerce cities. If you can build 8-12 cottages and still produce a few hammers and enough food, then you are on your way.

Thanks a lot, I'm trying these right now.
I think I was overrating markets, libraries and the like for commerce cities.

I am not fun of CE, but my advice to people who running CE is to go to extrime specialisation.

General SE city can do everyhting depends on current configuration.

If I do not have marble I useally do not even bother to build HE. In CE your general city can not rpoduce mach for a long time.
So, you need military production city, wanders production city, missionaries (if apply) production city. Do not do anything else whith your cities except what they are specialise for.

I am not fun of CE, but my advice to people who running CE is to go to extrime specialisation.

General SE city can do everyhting depends on current configuration.

If I do not have marble I useally do not even bother to build HE. In CE your general city can not rpoduce mach for a long time.
So, you need military production city, wanders production city, missionaries (if apply) production city. Do not do anything else whith your cities except what they are specialise for.

I don't think you have to go to that much extreme to play a good CE. It may seem like it to someone used to a SE, because it is so radically different from a SE. I'm very used to running a CE, and i tried SE several times (not enough to get good at it) but it wasn't for me. I wasn't enjoying that style (not just because I sucked..well maybe just a little bit ;) ) I suppose both will work just fine, but whichever one you like, you will perfect and get better and better with. That's what's good about Civ4, you can choose different routes to arrive at the same destination.

I've just finished a game with Huayna following these tips and it was pretty good.
Well, at least when compared to my former ones... I won a Space Race around 1920, think it could have been earlier if I tried domination, but I was not in the mood for moving troops to another continent.

I wanted you guys to tell me if 300 beakers is good for you top science city (in fact, mine was 296). Until a few years from the end, I had 2 other cities producing around 240 beakers (these were the ones with academies, of course), and the rest below 200.

Here's a typical late-game science city for me.

I think 200 is great amount of science for one city (if it´s another than oxford city). DaveMcw´s one looks good :)...In that game what is your total amount of brakers empire wide?

I´m HE player and like you Bode404, have never really played "just cottages" game.
If I remeber right, I have achieved something up to 500 science in my capital oxford. This mixed with goldmines, riverside cottages, specialist and super specialist.
I´m not that fundamental, you know...If it´s time for cottage then I build it...

I think 200 is great amount of science for one city (if it´s another than oxford city). DaveMcw´s one looks good ...In that game what is your total amount of brakers empire wide?

It was enough for researching Future Tech in 4 turns, at 90% science(without beaker overflow, because I researched up to FT 3).
13000 / 4 = 3250
It should be around that.

Well, I think my cities still need to get better, but 440 or 500 science seems ridiculously high :eek:
You were running bureaucracy? Anyway, my Oxford city wasnt my capital.
I'm gonna give another try on it.

Free speech, not bureaucracy. +8:commerce: from the palace helped a bit.

another advice: don't set as a goal to have slider at "x%".

It's too often illusive; doesn't matter where you have the slider, what matters is how many beakers you're producing. Keep checking how much beakers you're getting, and if you have to expand abit, don't drop the idea only because your slider would go down.

For instance, founding another city would drop your slider 10%; but, if you get currency in that time, the ammount of beakers might be the same even with 10% less.

So, drop the slider and found/capture that city...

if u build all cottages u lose. if you build all SE u lose. learn to mix it up and try to maximize expansion/science/production.

I've seen you in three different threads say this with no explaination and without adding anything to the topic at hand. HE's are good; they just require a large amount of skill to handle properly. When people do these homogenous economies, what they're trying to do is experiment and find their style of play, and they come here looking for advice to improve their game play. sometimes the situation will call for massive cottage spam; I don't think one would try to run a SE with a financial civ!:lol: sometimes the situation calls for a SE; i.e. lots of nearby food resources. The way most of my games flow is a SE/CE that transitions into a hybrid economy, but still, let the thread run its course

A cottage economy isn't all that different from a specialist economy when it's all said and done.

SEs will get a lot more GPs (which is mitigated significantly by a GP farm), and CEs with late-game civics are just plain awesome, which is somewhat mitigated by easier land-grabs earlier in the game for SEs.

One population = 1 specialist or 1 cottage being worked. If the cottage tile provides extra goodies (a hammer or two, bonus commerce from a resource, extra food), then assigning that one population to a cottage is often a much better choice then making him a specialist.

If it's a river-side cottage in the late game, it's a no-brainer. 7-8 commerce and at least one hammer from just one tile - and that commerce being usable in any way you want - is better than any single scientist, ever. Of course, artists and engineers have their own uses, but that's another topic.

But, back to my original point, they're not all that different. You need science, you need income, and either economy uses one population point to give you some of either (or both). Pyramids + SE + lots of food sources + CoL for caste system certainly dramatically out-performs cottages when they are measely 1-2 commerce tiles in the early game. Free Speech/Emancipation/Printing Press with a boat-load of cottages dramatically out-performs specialists in the late game.

I don't think any economy ends up being "pure" SE or CE except in rare circumstances - the game should dictate how far down which road you go on the CE-SE slider, and it's not going to be often that it's 100% pegged on one or the other.

What good CE doesn't have a GP farm?
What good SE doesn't have an uber-money cottage city?

The answer? Some. But not many. =)

Well, I thought that a pure CE or SE would be viable in most of times, based on what I read from these forums. Now I'm not sure about what you said.

I don't think any economy ends up being "pure" SE or CE except in rare circumstances - the game should dictate how far down which road you go on the CE-SE slider, and it's not going to be often that it's 100% pegged on one or the other.

What good CE doesn't have a GP farm?
What good SE doesn't have an uber-money cottage city?

You mean that having a GP farm in CE or a cottage-oriented city in SE makes your economy hybrid? For me it was the usual, and the simplest HE would be way further than this.
In fact, I think I'd be completely lost on running an efficient HE :confused:

I'm basically a hardcore Monarch level CE player myself and haven't tried out the SE for real until recently.

With a SE (last game with Alexander, Prince) I'm having problems cathing up with the opposition - especially mid-game and onwards while I wage war. I think it's a question of my playing style and not having enough experience with the SE to maximize it's potentials and going for the right techs. But I will keep trying... :p

There's less micromanagement with the CE - no doubt about that. It's my experience that a CE is generally better suited to the late game than a SE, but I might be wrong about that one. The Inca's traits (fin+ind) are tailormade to a CE - Elizabeth and Ragnar are some of my favorites as well. The financial trait is key.

if u build all cottages u lose. if you build all SE u lose. learn to mix it up and try to maximize expansion/science/production.

That is just not true. Especially in the case of the CE. Cottages, only get stronger and stronger over time, and managing a pure CE economy is far easier than running specialists.
The SE while not becoming any stronger after philosophy, and while it will actually decline in its ability to produce GP will also work by itself.
Hybriding an economy has its bennefits, but there is no reason while any well set up economy can not succeed.
Certain leaders/terrain lend themselves to being very successful using only a SE/CE, With only one leader maximizing the effects of both systems (Elizabeth).
Having a single GP farm doesn't really make an economy hybrid nor is it entirely necessary.
Asside from this, It is quite possible, although somewhat difficult to set up, to attain victory on high levels without building a single cottage, or running a single specialist.

When playing Elizabeth, the only farms I build are on tiles with food-resources or in the GP farm, which pretty much only get farms.

What I've learned so far playing Alexander with a SE is:

- you need pure production powerhouses (2 or more) too keep building military units during the whole game.
- the specialist cities/GP farms pretty much suck at production - especially from mid-game (and pre-factory) and onwards when units get really expensive.
- I usually need a merchant-specialist city with bank, market etc. to be able to keep it up economically while waging war. That means caste system throughout the game when first available.

So - the key is very specialized cities.

With a CE the cities are more flexible. With the right civics you can make a cottagespammed city with a forge and perhaps a couple of hills, into a decent production facility pre-factory.

But as I've said before - I'm no expert SE player, so I might be missing something there... :)

So - the key is very specialized cities.

With a CE the cities are more flexible. With the right civics you can make a cottagespammed city with a forge and perhaps a couple of hills, into a decent production facility pre-factory.

But as I've said before - I'm no expert SE player, so I might be missing something there... :)

Many people would disagree with your bold statement above, including myself. In a CE, you need to really specialize each city: GP farm, military, commerce. Most of the time, you would depend on your production cities to pump out units for war.

In a SE, like many have mentioned before, everyone of your cities are military cities before the war and production(buildings) and specialist cities after one. Because there's nothing but farm around your cities, you could fire the scientists and work the mine or any hammer producing tiles with those surplus food from farms. In the late game, you can replace those farms with workshops and boost the hammer outputs. You can't do that in a CE without destroying those matured cottages, although you get some hammers from Universal Suffrage.

Many people would disagree with your bold statement above, including myself. In a CE, you need to really specialize each city: GP farm, military, commerce. Most of the time, you would depend on your production cities to pump out units for war.

In a SE, like many have mentioned before, everyone of your cities are military cities before the war and production(buildings) and specialist cities after one. Because there's nothing but farm around your cities, you could fire the scientists and work the mine or any hammer producing tiles with those surplus food from farms. In the late game, you can replace those farms with workshops and boost the hammer outputs. You can't do that in a CE without destroying those matured cottages, although you get some hammers from Universal Suffrage.

Thx for the reply. :)

Well, my experience is (please observe that I'm not a veteran SE player by any means) that you are in war a lot while playing a SE strategy, which means you need production powerhouses to spit out military units like crazy. If you turn your specialist cities into production cities by 'firing' the specialists to aid military production, your research rate and economy will dive bigtime - and thats when I usually get in trouble while playing the SE. That's a lot of beakers and commerce wasted if you are in almost constant war in the midgame or so.

A lot of the cities I build in a CE, can produce military units without sacrificing most of the beaker+commerce income. Universal Suffrage and just a couple of watermills/hills/workshops combined with a forge is usually enough to keep a respectable hammer output without the need to re-structure the city/specialists while in war.

Btw - I didnt try to imply that cities are specialized in a SE and not in a CE. However, I feel that I need to specialize them more with a SE than with a CE to survive the mid-game and afterwards. :)

Thx for the reply. :)

Well, my experience is (please observe that I'm not a veteran SE player by any means) that you are in war a lot while playing a SE strategy, which means you need production powerhouses to spit out military units like crazy. If you turn your specialist cities into production cities by 'firing' the specialists to aid military production, your research rate and economy will dive bigtime - and thats when I usually get in trouble while playing the SE. That's a lot of beakers and commerce wasted if you are in almost constant war in the midgame or so.

A lot of the cities I build in a CE, can produce military units without sacrificing most of the beaker+commerce income. Universal Suffrage and just a couple of watermills/hills/workshops combined with a forge is usually enough to keep a respectable hammer output without the need to re-structure the city/specialists while in war.

Btw - I didnt try to imply that cities are specialized in a SE and not in a CE. However, I feel that I need to specialize them more with a SE than with a CE to survive the mid-game and afterwards. :)

Mid game is easiest with SE, I do not undestand where you problem is.

You probably do not use Slavery/Draft eanoght and too mach afraid of firing specialists.

If you draft or whipe the best units in overwelming amount your wars will be short and decisive. Main idea of SE consist of
1) Getting technological advantage early using ligtbulbing.
2) Convert technological advantage to military advantage BY slavery/draft.
3) Convert military advantage to technological from empire 2-3 times bigger then your rivals.

You actially wasting beakers you allready got by not leveragin yourt temporal techonlogical advantage in full by mass producing best units.

^^^You should listen to this guy, he knows what he's talking about :)

probably a silly question from a mediocre player, at least by the standard of this thread, struggling to get the better of Monarch, and still ending up without a particularly specialist SE or CE strategy as usually try for domination or the wipe out, and have only really just started experimenting with such specialisation.

What victory condition are all these threads talking about, is this about victory by space race or is this a flawed conclusion. is the aim of SE to get so far advanced you have a modern unit miles before everyone else then mass produce it to kick ass, or again is this a warmongerers thinking again.

CE = spacerace
SE = domination

imho

edit: an example of an exception to the rule: you play random civ and draw a financial leader. you play random map and draw pangaea. you have a number of builder AIs close to you. domination victory looks quite plausible, however the map has a number of nice snaky rivers. you going to go for SE just because you're going domination? no. you go CE because with financial and a lot of river tiles, you get the most bang for you buck.

CE is great for domination if you can't steamroll your opponents with cavalry.

Doesn't have to be cavalry. Whip/drafted rifles or any unit pretty much works just fine. The advantage is the fast regrowth after whipping and drafting EMPIRE-WIDE that the FE can do whereas you're not going to repeatedly whip a large commerce city with a bunch of mature towns, are you???

you're not going to repeatedly whip a large commerce city with a bunch of mature towns, are you???

Sure I will, if I need the units and it can regrow fast enough.