Hey, if you capitulate a civilization, can that civ build and win the spaceship and other types of victories?

yes, it can. What other reason it capitulated, what do you think?

At least they can win the space race ( happened to me once :blush: ) and you don't win with them.... ( it's really annoying to see a Gandhi going to a space race and not being able to nuke or invade the bastard :mad: )

You should be able to prevent your vassal from building the spaceship by directing their research to non-SS techs.

If you force an opponent into capitulation, the price you pay for it is that they are now protected and can basically do what they want, so you have to think carefully before doing it. You get credit for 1/2 their land and open borders and all that, but I think it's a fair deal that they could still win by space race. Otherwise like Mutineer said, why would anyone agree to become a vassal?

I recently won a conquest game where I kicked Saladin's ass then asked him to capitulate. I should have kept conquering for at least one more city, because after that I was stuck on 62.5% of the land and needed 63% to win, and it took me another 50-100 turns after declaring on Caesar all the way on another continent! It was a fun game but an instructive lesson on the vassal states feature.

Why would anyone agree to be capitulated? That's because it doesn't want to be annihilated!;) If you destroyed and took over their cities, leaving them with only 3-4 cities left and then capitulate, I don't know how they can research those techs so fast, unless they got uber super science city.

So, capitulation isn't permanent between the AI's but it is between AI and human player.

Can you pillage your vassals cottages? I know you can pillage your own (you don't get any cash though, unfortunately).

What I want to know is whether I can demand a technology from my vassal.

I should be able to... If I'm the one doing the protecting here, I'm going to need those cannons.

What I want to know is whether I can demand a technology from my vassal.

I should be able to... If I'm the one doing the protecting here, I'm going to need those cannons.

lol not if they feel annoyed or furious towards you after what you've done to them. When i capitulate other civ's, im not the one providing them protection. In fact, when i declare war on another party, they will be forced to go to war along with me:D. the more vassals you got, the more fun it'll get. Sometimes, your vassals even position their troops in your border cities, which is kind of good. When that happens, i like to look at my diplomacy window and see all those red lines criss-crossing all over the screens :lol:

Having vassels also gets very expensive.

I never get them, I perfer to just finish them off. Once you vassal them, they are a problem that you'll never be able to remove except the odd time in a thousand.

Having vassels also gets very expensive.

I never get them, I perfer to just finish them off. Once you vassal them, they are a problem that you'll never be able to remove except the odd time in a thousand.

Yes, but most of the time, they usually submit themselves to become a vassal of another civ right before you can finish them off. Then by the time you realize it, the strongest civ declares war on you on the very next turn:mad:

Yes, but most of the time, they usually submit themselves to become a vassal of another civ right before you can finish them off. Then by the time you realize it, the strongest civ declares war on you on the very next turn:mad:

Amen to that.

You have to check constantly to see if they will capitulate. Every turn. Twice.

I check once during the turn and once again right before I end it.
The worst thing in the world is when I'm warring someone and making headway, then they capitulate to the lead civ and I'm suddenly at war with both of them.

Stupid, now I'm losing ground where I was gaining moments ago.
Personally, though I think the situation sucks, I think it's a nice touch to the game that makes you a little more discretionary with your wars and diplomacy, so I leave vassals enabled.

Sometimes you can get an enemy to capitulate without doing that much damage to them at all.

Once, while playing as Ghandi on Prince, I was in the point and power lead. I declared war on Brennus and his little vassal Fredrick (whom I had crushed but failed to get his capitulation, ironically). Brennus was in the third spot.

I set my cavalry on auto-pillage (explore) and let them go to work since I had more than plenty of them to spare for a while. About five turns later more than half of his empire was completely devoid of improvements, but I had not taken any cities or destroyed more than five or six units, and he offered to capitulate, with 1000+ gold and a map.

I was bigger than he was anyway, so I wasn't worried about him growing out of my protection, so the vassalage was pretty much permanent and he himself was nearly at full strength!

It was awesome. From that point on I would declare on everyone and watch Brennus take them out for me. I would move my cavalry in behind his forces to take cities (and make sure he didn't "grow free").

Vassal states have their uses, so long as you allow them to have a little breathing room.

Thats great about the pillaging, personally I never piillage, because I incorporate new lands immediately. Usually I only vassalize people to defend the north and south poles for me. Going for a domination victory, the happiness is nice, and the support costs.. well I have never noticed. If pillaging is all it takes to capitulate I will have to try that in overseas wars.

How can u go for domination victory well, when you can't dominate over your vassels. You are locked into peace with them till doomsday.

They are a bigger problem than worth.

If you get everyone to be your vassal, you win.

Vassals land and population count 50% for domination too. If you are close to the limit you can vassalize a civ and win sooner than by eliminating said civ.

The only thing I like about vassals is that they help with domination victories. Other than that they are more annoying than anything else. I for one don't like the vassal system at all :), but oh well.

When ever I'm at the point that the AI wants to be my vassel. It is much superior that I finish them off and I STILL get to keep the cities, 100% the votes, and without paying the stupid penalties, etc!

Add a dozen other benefits...

the main reason for vassalizing rival civs comes from the vassal system itself :D ever been to war with a weak civ and all of a sudden your biggest rival vassalizes the civ you're at war with? as long as your civ is the strongest civ of them all this won't happen. but if there's threatening rivals you should consider letting a civ capitulate if this option is available before another civ does it.

Only thing I like Vassal is when you can ask 12 gold per turn from every spare resource you have...
In Latest game I made a mistake thought...I left two vassals cities inside my territory, and because those are capitals I´m having serious problems with cultural pressure...
But anyway both vassals are giving me lots of gold from resources...Inca giving me 120 gold/turn and france 90...That one I like,

and also their military is handy ...at least france has, even thought one city, about 15 units and they actually follow my instructions about what to research and where to attack...
But Inca was mistake to capitulate...thier culture was/is too strong, but their military weak and cause I take 120gold/turn from them is takes 400turns for them to research compass (I already have chemistry)...

IS there any way to cancel deal with vassal...I can´t even give them a cities to get them big again...****.

This also burned me. I took a vassel to see what all the hoopla was about. Protected him from Zulu. Then after taking Zulu cities, and trying to gift them to my vassel, it wouldn't give me the option!!!

What a waste and a useless feature.

The fact that one can not gift cities to vassal bags me too.

The fact that there ex cities revolt, but can not rejoing there homeland bugs. Why revolt then?

But otherwize vassals have there pluses.

Oh yes, they have their pluses like the last game...
Me and Mansu are best buddies. I have super high relations with him. Same religion, etc. Not even one negative point. We have defensive pact. Huyan attacks Mansu, so I have to fight him as well. Few rounds later, mansu becomes a vassel, and in the same turn now my blood-brother is forced to declare war on me...

WTF????

I was forced to join the war because of our pacts, and now I am forced into fighting the one I was forced to protect?

I don't see that as any sort of plus... I see that as a broken game.

Oh yes, they have their pluses like the last game...
Me and Mansu are best buddies. I have super high relations with him. Same religion, etc. Not even one negative point. We have defensive pact. Huyan attacks Mansu, so I have to fight him as well. Few rounds later, mansu becomes a vassel, and in the same turn now my blood-brother is forced to declare war on me...

WTF????

I was forced to join the war because of our pacts, and now I am forced into fighting the one I was forced to protect?

I don't see that as any sort of plus... I see that as a broken game.

you should have asked him to be your peacetime vassal ;).

A vassal can indeed win by space or cultural (or even time AFAIK, although it seems hardly possible). But if you deny him the opportunity to win by space, he just won't. It's pretty easy to check what your vassal(s) research and ask them to change to non space part technologies.
In fact I hate it when my vassals have rocketry, because they use those gunships to pillage everything around.

Another good point for vassals, is they give you +1 happiness.
It doesn't seem much but when you have 3, it's pretty good :lol:.

obsolete have you checked the list of fixes in the 2.08 patch? reading some of those it seems like your situation would have been remedied. doesn't this fix address your situation:

Can no longer ask someone to make peace with a vassal. Talk to the master directly.

You do have to be careful about an enemy civ vassalizing (is that a word?) to a powerful civ and causing you to go to war with them - but if they're willing to capitulate, they're also willing to give you basically anything for peace.

If I really want to make nice-nice with the civs I'm not pounding on, I'll often declare peace (with extortion) instead of gaining the vassal as soon as capitulation becomes available. One must weigh the demerit of -1 for all civs vs. the +1 happy for all cities.

Also, I really, really, really like the ability to squash the aformentioned civ like a bug if they become a pain in the butt later. =)

You do have to be careful about an enemy civ vassalizing (is that a word?) to a powerful civ and causing you to go to war with them - but if they're willing to capitulate, they're also willing to give you basically anything for peace.

If I really want to make nice-nice with the civs I'm not pounding on, I'll often declare peace (with extortion) instead of gaining the vassal as soon as capitulation becomes available. One must weigh the demerit of -1 for all civs vs. the +1 happy for all cities.

Also, I really, really, really like the ability to squash the aformentioned civ like a bug if they become a pain in the butt later. =)

totally right.
In a diplomatic game, having one vassal is a pain.
Then again having 5 is a win (they vote for you!).

Geeze, I simply can't get the AI to vassel to me unless there is practicaly nothing left. Actually, I had Cyrus down to just ONE city, and he STILL wouldn't vassal to me, despite I had a gigantic waltzing right towards his only city and I had obliterated every other unit on the map.

O_o

Geeze, I simply can't get the AI to vassel to me unless there is practicaly nothing left. Actually, I had Cyrus down to just ONE city, and he STILL wouldn't vassal to me, despite I had a gigantic waltzing right towards his only city and I had obliterated every other unit on the map.

O_o
are you playing agressive AIs?

Vassals are annoying to say the least. I usually just wipe the buggers off the map since their culture annoys me. Its irksome to control a continent with a nice purple spread all along the landmass and to have a blue or yellow blotch in the middle of the land. Also the computers have a tendency to vassilize each other making my foreign policy of working to no longer need one a nightmare.

Alright, just went through some more vassal BULLSH!T!

I beat the crap out of Peter. I honestly took city after city after city. Yet he REFUSED to be my vassel. Yet, he has NOOOOO problem asking to be Monty's Vassal and poof, I am now overswarmed in the rear door and have to give up.

Which reminds me, Isabella was down to her last city, and Monty was stompping on her, I kept asking again if she could be my vassal so I could save her..... Nooooo she refuses?

I ask again, wtf? It seems this is just another thing this screws the human player over, unless he can find some way to EXPLOIT around it.

There is nothing I really can do about it?

^^play better?

I never faced situations like these, there must be some reason.

I have faught an enemy down the less than three remaining cities, from 15+ and still wouldn't capitulate and instead turned elsewhere.

I think this is down to how agressive you have been against them as well..

Anyway obviously more often the AI will get it.

It's all about their graphs versus yours.

If they only have one little town out on an iceberg, but they have 45 infantry and a stack of panzers, they will not capitulate because their power rating is still very high.

However, I have gained a vassal without taking a single city. It was Brennus, I declared on him and waited for the endless storms of his units, then leveled them with cavalry that were in my borders. After his offensive sluffed off, I sent the cavalry into his land to pillage like crazy. After most of his tile improvements were down, I started attacking cities without taking them. The idea was to destroy his army without destroying him.
He actually came to ME asking to capitulate. After his tile improvements were rebuilt, I had a vassal that was nearly full strength.


He was quite useful in the wars to come.

I think the main point everybody who is complaining that they can't get a civ to capitulate is missing is the leader personalities.

Mansa and Gahndi will capitulate just like that. This is what makes them good vassals - They maintain a large portion of their empire minus what ever strategic sites you need (Wonder, Shrine, etc) and maintain their huge research power. You then use them to research for you. Crazy pit pull warmongers like Cyrus or Toku will fight to their last breath and then hate you forever after you vassalize them anyway, so they are almost never worth the trouble.

Also, on the 'Big civ takes your enemy as a vassal and the DoW' problem - I love these issues, because they are so historically accurate. A people can only be pushed so far unto the brink of extinction until they will do anything and everything to remain alive. Some people can be pushed further than others. On the same note a neutral third party can only stand back for so long until the potential gains (A peacetime vassal - better than one you just attacked, who will offer anything) outweigh the potential drawbacks (War with you, presumably a weaker or weakened from war nation).

I love the Vassal feature, I only wish it were more flexible and more wide ranging its options.

Another thing I noticed is the vassal problem is lessened on Fractal vs Two continents maps. It seems to vassal like mad on the seperate continents making perm-warmongering there almost impossible for the human player.

IIRC, Warlords has Fractal on by default, while the vanilla had Two continents.