Dear Citizens of the World…

On behalf of The Council, I am pleased to present
this world’s first International Newspaper…

The RoundTable


We hope you enjoy!

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/GeneralW/EditionOne_draft2c.jpg


disclaimer:

Disclaimer:
"The RoundTable is published at the sole discretion of advisor to the council, General_W. All opinions are his alone, and do not necessarily reflect the opinion or positions of The Council government. Heck, even the 'facts' in this paper are viewed through his personal lens and may or may not accurately reflect the real or perceived actual state of world and/or game affairs. This paper may frequently contain what is known as 'sarcasm' and should be taken as it is intended – in fun. Hate mail may be sent to General_W via PM if you wish. General_W reserves the right to laugh uproariously at any hate mail he receives. This paper is not designed to provide up-to-date news, cure any diseases, provide well balanced opinion, or relieve inflammation of the foot. The Council hereby absolves itself from any responsibility from any actions the reader does or does not take based on this 'news' paper."

Nice job on building the SoZ. :goodjob: Have you noticed a change in the frequency of lightning in The Council? Like the paper. You have a natural talent for these things.

What a wonderful media you guys have, is it because all of your reporters report directly to the mysterious Council? Nicely done.

I can't see the edition at work due to work blocking photobucket. But imageshack isn't block :hmm: Our IT dept, does some strange things

So when are you going to be knighted for this edition of the paper? ;)

Glad you're all enjoying it :)

@Classical Hero – well, they tell me that my knighthood papers are in the mail… pity they don't plan to invent a post office for another thousand years or so…


@Tubby – here's a link to the RoundTable on imageshack for your viewing pleasure! :salute:
http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/6396/editiononedraft2cmt3.th.jpg (http://img408.imageshack.us/my.php?image=editiononedraft2cmt3.jpg)


@Killercane – I could tell you, but it's all very mysterious…. :mischief:


@Empiremaker – Well, people's hair does seem to be standing up on end more often… but I'm not sure if that's due to increased electrical activity in the skies, or due to the Clay Aiken craze that's currently sweeping our cities…


SoZ side effect? Or Idol craze gone horribly, horribly wrong? You decide.
http://img70.imageshack.us/img70/7278/electrichair2nm0.th.gif (http://img70.imageshack.us/my.php?image=electrichair2nm0.gif) http://img70.imageshack.us/img70/600/clayaikenphotographc121wm6.th.jpg (http://img70.imageshack.us/my.php?image=clayaikenphotographc121wm6.jpg)

in any case, we have issued a warning to all travelers to stay far away until the outbreak is fully controlled… we don't want to risk infection spreading overseas… :mischief:

excellent work. Our Sirens are hot (or should that be hawt) though ;)

I LOVE the disclaimer. They are words I live by.

Very nice, General W. :goodjob: You're highly talented, and I'll be looking forward to future editions.

Very nice Gen W. You truly have a gift.

So how come your back to a newspaper:confused:

Oh wait, there is no mass media in civ3 ;)

Nice job once again GW

Dear Citizens of the World…

On behalf of The Council, I am pleased to present
The Second Edition
of this world’s first International Newspaper…

The RoundTable


We hope you enjoy!

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/GeneralW/EditionTwo_Draft2.jpg


disclaimer:

Disclaimer:
"The RoundTable is published at the sole discretion of advisor to the council, General_W. All opinions are his alone, and do not necessarily reflect the opinion or positions of The Council government. Heck, even the 'facts' in this paper are viewed through his personal lens and may or may not accurately reflect the real or perceived actual state of world and/or game affairs. This paper may frequently contain what is known as 'sarcasm' and should be taken as it is intended – in fun. Hate mail may be sent to General_W via PM if you wish. General_W reserves the right to laugh uproariously at any hate mail he receives. This paper is not designed to provide up-to-date news, cure any diseases, provide well balanced opinion, or relieve inflammation of the foot. The Council hereby absolves itself from any responsibility from any actions the reader does or does not take based on this 'news' paper."


P.S. – and the ImageShack version for Tubby. :love:
http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/9515/editiontwodraft2ig3.th.jpg (http://img211.imageshack.us/my.php?image=editiontwodraft2ig3.jpg)

thanks Gen_W.

I love the new troops. I hear team FREE would like to see them up close. Maybe you could send a few their way. I could give you directions :devil:

Very nice General W :goodjob:

I love the new troops. I hear team FREE would like to see them up close. Maybe you could send a few their way. I could give you directions :devil:
hmm.... directions...

General_W: <whispers> ok, so tell me how to find these FREE people…
Tubby: Well, first you sail up… or down really. Either way. Then you take a Left, or a right... it doesn't really seem to matter on this planet..."

:lol:

that's about it.. but you forgot about that dog-leg to the sideways in the directions. ;)

Dear Citizens of the World…

On behalf of The Council, I am pleased to present
The Third Edition
of this world’s first International Newspaper…

The RoundTable


We hope you enjoy!

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/GeneralW/EditionThree_Draft1.jpg

and the ImageShack version…
http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/838/editionthreedraft1fq1.th.jpg (http://img207.imageshack.us/my.php?image=editionthreedraft1fq1.jpg)


disclaimer:

Disclaimer:
"The RoundTable is published at the sole discretion of advisor to the council, General_W. All opinions are his alone, and do not necessarily reflect the opinion or positions of The Council government. Heck, even the 'facts' in this paper are viewed through his personal lens and may or may not accurately reflect the real or perceived state of world and/or game affairs. This paper may frequently contain what is known as 'sarcasm' and should be taken as it is intended – in fun. Hate mail may be sent to General_W via PM if you wish. General_W reserves the right to laugh uproariously at any hate mail he receives. This paper is not designed to provide up-to-date news, cure any diseases, provide well balanced opinion, or relieve inflammation of the foot. The Council hereby absolves itself from any responsibility from any actions the reader does or does not take based on this 'news' paper."

Nice General W, i hope this means everything has improved at home?

and i still love how tubby gets his own version!

As always a great read. This is one of the special touches that makes this game so enjoyable. :thanx:

Funny as always, great read and we didn't think we were getting properly paid anyway :cheers:

I'm just relieved to hear that nobody knows what comes after the Middle Ages yet :ack:. And, what the heck, if even bellbottoms can make a comeback, maybe you all will eventually realize that the Ancient Age is in fact the :cool: place to be.

Middle Ages: when your age is greater than your waist size but less than your IQ.

I'm just relieved to hear that nobody knows what comes after the Middle Ages yet :ack:. And, what the heck, if even bellbottoms can make a comeback, maybe you all will eventually realize that the Ancient Age is in fact the :cool: place to be.

What are you talking about ancient age for? it can't be ancient if your still there! ;)

edit- put in smilie

Glad you all are enjoying it! :)

@Chamnix, I had actually intended to mention in the story that the Ancient Age is the New Middle Age … but ran out of room! :lol:

(and thanks BCLG for asking about my daughter… things are better for sure, but there's still a long road ahead of us. Well wishes and prayers are always appreciated.)

(and thanks BCLG for asking about my daughter… things are better for sure, but there's still a long road ahead of us. Well wishes and prayers are always appreciated.)

No worries, didnt mean to pry but just felt i should let you know that mine, as im sure everyone elses, best wishes are behind you and your family :)

For immediate release:

WAR HAS COME TO THE GREAT ISLAND WORLD!!!

Fast-moving purple galleys able to safely stay on deep sea tiles have landed dangerous Mounted Warriors on the peace-loving land of The Council. This unprovoked Act of Aggression is made all the more perfidious by the fact that Babe broke a Peace Treaty in order to land the troops. The Peace had lasted hundreds of years and had 40 years left to go before expiring naturally.

Let it be known across all the twisted oceans: A Treaty with Babe is not worth the paper it is written on!

For immediate release:

WAR HAS COME TO THE GREAT ISLAND WORLD!!!

Let it be known across all the twisted oceans: A Treaty with Babe is not worth the paper it is written on!

Uh-oh...

It sounds like another Whompian conspiracy.

I was about to check out for a week or so but this will keep me coming back.

Hehe. That's funny since as far as I know we haven't declared anything and haven't broke any treaties. Unless you can prove we had some agreement on units?

Oh dear Whomp, we knew you were going to try to split hairs over this matter. But it matters little - your actions speak for themselves, and none of the other teams (which is the ones that truly matter) are going to believe for a second that your motives were not of aggression. Call it what you like - the fact that you landed without formally declaring war first is even worse than formally declaring while a treaty is still running. A rose by any other name...

And if you wanted to land with purely peaceful intentions, to join our contemplative walks along the beaches, you could have bothered to ask our permission first - or at least answer the messages we sent you over the matter. :p

Good to get both sides of the story. ;)

Believe what you will Niklas but like Saber we've done nothing outside of the rules of this game and have no reason to ask your permission. We have no reason to talk to your team either since you've offered no reason for our cooperation on multiple fronts.

Believe what you will Niklas but like Saber we've done nothing outside of the rules of this game and have no reason to ask your permission.
Oh, I haven't said you have broken the rules of this game, I'm not crying foul play, certainly not. I've only said you've broken our treaty, which is perfectly allowed by the rules. That doesn't mean it won't carry diplomatic consequences. That's the whole point of treaties after all. ;)

We have no reason to talk to your team either since you've offered no reason for our cooperation on multiple fronts.
This sentence I simply don't understand. What is it we should have offered a reason for? Whose cooperation on what fronts? :confused:

YOu can split hairs all you want. Or lie to yourself about wether or not this is treaty breaking. The other teams who this is really for will see it for what it is. You can sign treaty's in game and break them that isn't against the rules either. It is a strategy (albiet a rather dishonorable one.) I do think other teams should deal with you rather cautiosly though because of this. Since this doesn't seam to be the strategy most other teams are adhering to.

We have no reason to talk to your team either since you've offered no reason for our cooperation on multiple fronts.

What? Like Niklas, I just do not understand this sentence. But you know what? It doesn't matter as long as your team fulfills its contractual obligations. Oops, too late for that isn't it! :lol:

Oh, I haven't said you have broken the rules of this game, I'm not crying foul play, certainly not. I've only said you've broken our treaty, which is perfectly allowed by the rules. That doesn't mean it won't carry diplomatic consequences. That's the whole point of treaties after all. ;)
We've broken no treaties. We had no agreement on units. If you can show me where we did then we've broken a treaty. At this point, we've broken nothing. If any other team wants to add that to their treaties then they should ask now but it will be expensive.

This sentence I simply don't understand. What is it we should have offered a reason for? Whose cooperation on what fronts? :confused:
You've offered nothing is the point and the lines have been drawn. Pretty sad when you trade a team up the way you did.
YOu can split hairs all you want. Or lie to yourself about wether or not this is treaty breaking. The other teams who this is really for will see it for what it is. You can sign treaty's in game and break them that isn't against the rules either. It is a strategy (albiet a rather dishonorable one.) I do think other teams should deal with you rather cautiosly though because of this. Since this doesn't seam to be the strategy most other teams are adhering to.See above. Other teams can do what they wish. It's not as if it matters in this game how others perceive us that is clear.

What? Like Niklas, I just do not understand this sentence. But you know what? It doesn't matter as long as your team fulfills its contractual obligations. Oops, too late for that isn't it! :lol: What contract? Maybe you can produce it.

Babe broke a Peace Treaty in order to land the troops.

I thought you needed to declare war for a peace treaty to be broken...

Of course we can produce it!

http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/7880/damnyougwca2.jpg

The treaty says that peace shall reign between our nations. You have landed military units on our shores, which is an act of aggression, and thus an act of war. Thus you have broken the treaty.

The treaty does not say that our two teams have agreed to not declare war on each other. If it had, you would not have broken it, since you haven't declared war. No, the treaty says that we shall live in peace, deliberatly worded in a way that encompasses peace in its purest form. There is no room for hair splitting, no room for claiming that an aggressive act does not mean breaking the peace just because no formal declaration was made. The treaty says we shall live in peace, and your invasion does certainly not mean to live in peace. No, the treaty did not say "both teams agree not to land military units next to the other team's towns", that is definitely implicit in the term "live in peace".

Though I don't see why I argue this really, you can claim whatever you like. It's the other teams that ultimately judge what the consequences of this are. If you felt that your credibility was already rock bottom with the other teams, then I can see why you didn't bother about breaking a treaty. I don't begrudge you the landing, you haven't broken any game rules, just a treaty. That you're trying to be sneaky about it, maybe even gain some war happiness, that changes nothing. You want war, you get war, and your credibility is even lower than what it was. That's all there is to it really.

I thought you needed to declare war for a peace treaty to be broken...
Of course you don't. In that case, history would have been full of non-wars ending with countless casualties. Of course, it is the honorable thing to do to declare war before you conduct any hostile acts. But war begins either when war is declared, or, in the cases where honor is set aside, when the first hostile act is conducted.

I see nowhere where the treaty discusses units.
Every other treaty I've seen always discusses units but it was not part of our treaty so as you say let the other teams decide. Implicit is just like saying Saber should not block their coast but we'll help them anyhow. Not that it matters at this point.

As long as Babe withdraws it's forces from Council's lands before declaring war, this (IMHO) is not really a treaty violation. If on the other hand they prefer the path of ROP Rape, then let the buyer beware on future dealings.

I see nowhere where the treaty discusses units.
Every other treaty I've seen always discusses those items...
No, it doesn't mention units, it doesn't need to. If you and I agree not to fight, and then you kick me in the groin, does that mean you did not break the agreement because it did not specifically mention kicking in the groin?

As long as Babe withdraws it's forces from Council's lands before declaring war, this (IMHO) is not really a treaty violation. If on the other hand they prefer the path of ROP Rape, then let the buyer beware on future dealings.Hi Denyd. :D
There was no ROP so our view is it's implied that where units are stationed doesn't matter.

No, it doesn't mention units, it doesn't need to. If you and I agree not to fight, and then you kick me in the groin, does that mean you did not break the agreement because it did not specifically mention kicking in the groin?Of course it has to mention units. Why wouldn't it mention units? All other MTDG I and II treaties we've had discussed them. Believe what you will. Like I said it's not like it will matter how we play it the way things have developed.

Man, the groin reference is rally making me.... :vomit:

OK, now I feel better.

As long as Babe withdraws it's forces from Council's lands before declaring war, this (IMHO) is not really a treaty violation. If on the other hand they prefer the path of ROP Rape, then let the buyer beware on future dealings.
Leave the beachhead be and let them land the rest of their units waiting just off-shore? Now that would be a foolish action indeed. They will certainly not be given the chance to withdraw, since the chances of that happening are infinitesimal. We would rather fight off two landing mounted warriors than the 28 units that can fit into the 14 galleys parked off our coast, waiting for a place to unload.

They broke the treaty by conduction an aggressive landing, clearly against our wishes, and not at all within the spirit of peace, which is what the treaty entails. We have done what they were not honorable enough to do, and declared war formally. They may get war happiness for it through their sneakiness, but so be it.

Of course it has to mention units. Why wouldn't it mention units? All other MTDG I and II treaties we've had discussed them.
Of course it doesn't have to mention units! By the wording, the treaty is all-encompassing when it comes to hostile acts. You have agreed to live in peace with us, and yet you land military forces next to our lands. That is a violation to the peace treaty, and that's all there is to it. I could drag up the groin analogy again, which you so deftly eluded, but for jb's sake I won't.

I think you should have General W read the MIA/KISS peace treaty then. It specifically stated units, type, how and where. We specifically left it out with Council. Imply all you want but there was no hostility intended just an anti-Saber landing.

I don't hold a grudge against BABE for the resignation business. It seems that to an independent observer, landing units in a team's homeland is an aggressive act. I am not sure why the teams are so concerned about their reputations. The alliances are pretty much set until some teams are eliminated. Let each team decide what they think of the landing and DoW.

EDIT: Imply all you want but there was no hostility intended just an anti-Saber landing. :lol: No hostility? If you don't want war, then why are you so concerned about a SABER style blockade?

EDIT: :lol: No hostility? If you don't want war, then why are you so concerned about a SABER style blockade?
You may want to be careful of the same thing. Beachheads galore is our motto.

I think you should have General W read the MIA/KISS peace treaty then. It specifically stated units, type, how and where. We implicitly left it out with Council.
It matters not at all what other, older treaties have looked like. Just because our treaty was worded in a different, simpler way doesn't mean it isn't valid. But if you want specifics, I'm pretty sure that the specifically stated units and hows and wheres concerned a mutually shared landmass, with neutral land in between, no? I highly doubt that either side allowed even one unit inside their own borders, and such a thing clearly shouldn't need to be in a treaty since it's implicit.

Your argument here reminds me of someone waving their hands near someone else's face claiming "the air is free, I can do what I want in it". Well, clearly that's not quite true, thats a pretty aggressive thing to do, and it certainly doesn't mean you're letting the other part be in peace. The treaty says you agree to let us live in peace. You haven't let us live in peace, and thus you have broken the treaty. There really isn't any more to it.

(jb, was that better than a groin kick? ;))

Imply all you want but there was no hostility intended just an anti-Saber landing.
If there was no hostility intended, you could easily have contacted us to ask our permission to land your units on our shores. We would of course have said no, but to land even without asking is certainly not to let us live in peace - which again is what the treaty said you should do. It doesn't matter if you didn't intend to attack with those units alone, since your main stack certainly wouldn't have hesitated to attack. And if you try to claim that the main stack wouldn't attack either, then why would you need a beachhead in the first place?

Also, we are not SABER, so why would landing in our lands be anti-SABER in any way?

It seems that to an independent observer, landing units in a team's homeland is an aggressive act. I am not sure why the teams are so concerned about their reputations. The alliances are pretty much set until some teams are eliminated. Let each team decide what they think of the landing and DoW.
And leave out all the fun of arguing the validity of the treaty? Spoilsport... :gripe:

Seriously though, every letter of what you say is absolutely true. I'm just arguing for the sake of the treaty, no one is going to "win" the discussion and it will not change anything in how we play from here on. But we certainly wouldn't consider signing any more treaties with the well-coiffed people again.

There's precedence with old treaties (or no treaties) and you should read the treaty between MIA/KISS. Movement was discussed including moving on each other's lands which occurred. At this point I'm done discussing it since we'll agree to disagree on the semantics.

Right, we agree that we disagree. Now come get some. :evil:

The treaty doesnt mention units, so its fair game. A groin kick is a fight, but preparing yourself for a groin kick by lining it up in your sights/putting on some steel toed boots is a better analogy!

I think we should settle this whole misunderstanding the old-fashioned way: Niklas and Whomp in personal combat.

I think we should settle this whole misunderstanding the old-fashioned way: Niklas and Whomp in personal combat.
Groin kicking contest?

with or without cup?

:D how come I walk away with this huge :D after reading this thread. I do recall that Babes were called whiners/losers/unsporting etc.. when talking about the blockade of Saber.
Hairsplittingly we were told that saber was correct.

Turn the tables and we landed units on Councils land not breaking any treaty. Now, it is us again that is unsporting/traitors etc. Hmm, seems to me that some people are sore losers here :lol:

At least, this way we got more fun than millenia of boring builder style games. Finally we have a war here and it was Council who broke the peace treaty :p

I don't think that The Council is saying that you broke a rule by landing units. They are saying that BABE is being dishonorable, and that other teams should not trust BABE. This is a purely in-game matter.

The SABER blockade was supposedly a rule violation, which caused BABE to make an out of game complaint. There is no rule violation in breaking a treaty.

There wasn't a treaty broken until Council attacked us.

No treaty was broken by our side, if anyone is being dishonourable its the Council by killing our two explorers during a time where we had peace.

All this hubub is over TWO MW's!?!

Looks like somebody got some cheap war jollies.

All this hubub is over TWO MW's!?!

Looks like somebody got some cheap war jollies.

True. I don't think that this debate will change anyone's opinion about the honor of the two acts.

I think we should settle this whole misunderstanding the old-fashioned way: Niklas and Whomp in personal combat.

I want in to.

Hmmm ... 2v2?

Hmmm ... 2v2?
I'm in...no islands. Pangea to the death.:D

I really don't understand why Whomp is trying to paint BABE's invasion of the Council as anything other than an invasion. Sure, maybe BABE wasn't intending to attack...yet...having a stack on the shore to prevent a SABER-style blockade while they bring in a BIG attack stack would certainly suit their purposes.

It's rather dishonest to claim that such a landing isn't an invasion. We can get away with that kind of "uh, oops, sorry" responses when the AI boots our explorers, but that's not how diplomacy works against thinking opponents.

Boo, Whomp. Go ahead and sucker-punch the other teams, but don't try to claim that they started a fight when you're the one who started something.

I really don't understand why Whomp is trying to paint BABE's invasion of the Council as anything other than an invasion. Sure, maybe BABE wasn't intending to attack...yet...having a stack on the shore to prevent a SABER-style blockade while they bring in a BIG attack stack would certainly suit their purposes.

It's rather dishonest to claim that such a landing isn't an invasion. We can get away with that kind of "uh, oops, sorry" responses when the AI boots our explorers, but that's not how diplomacy works against thinking opponents.

Boo, Whomp. Go ahead and sucker-punch the other teams, but don't try to claim that they started a fight when you're the one who started something.

:D :clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::D

I'm in...no islands. Pangea to the death.:D

How we going to do this.

I suggest you each pick a tribe with an AA UU on a small/tiny panegea map. One of the PBEM map makers probably has one these Death-Match maps on hand for just such an occasion. I also suggest a regent or less level to get things done quicker.

I don't think that The Council is saying that you broke a rule by landing units. They are saying that BABE is being dishonorable, and that other teams should not trust BABE. This is a purely in-game matter.Yep. BABE hasn't broken any rules, just a treaty. We have no OOC complaints, just diplomatic ones.

All this hubub is over TWO MW's!?!

Looks like somebody got some cheap war jollies.
If there hadn't been the other 13 GALLEYS waiting to unload units off our shores, we certainly hadn't reacted this way. :p

I'm in...no islands. Pangea to the death.:D
So it's me and cubsfan vs Whomp and Beorn-eL-Feared? Bring it on! :D

I suggest you each pick a tribe with an AA UU on a small/tiny panegea map. One of the PBEM map makers probably has one these Death-Match maps on hand for just such an occasion. I also suggest a regent or less level to get things done quicker.
Aztecs for me then. :mischief:

If there hadn't been the other 13 GALLEYS waiting to unload units off our shores, we certainly hadn't reacted this way.

Could one humbly request for full battle logs? Sitting in the Gong Lib, burping Pyramid Beer and reading ol comics (they're really ancient y'know) is getting kinda boring. You could post the logs here and make spiteful comments on your opponents stupidities :lol: . Oh, and pics attached please!

I have just about had it with some of the comments thrown at us in Team Babe. The level of inflamatory namecallings we suffered in the SABER affair, I learned that I am a bad Civ3 player and childish for questioning some of the game mechanics in Civ3. We agreed to play on and were asked to look past some of the less than great ways Civ3 is designed. But to once again get called inflamatory things is more than I will agree is OK for a "civilized3community". ;) EDIT: Forgot to include what I took offense to being called "dishonourable". For playing according to the rules and game mechanics that is a very inflamatory thing to have thrown at you.

We are NOT deal breakers, Council is the only deal breaker in this incident. We have a peace agreement with Council that extends until the dawn of turn 129. War and peace in Civ 3 is very clear to me. War is either an attack on a unit from another faction resulting in a state of war or it can be started by a declaration of war. That is the way Civ3 deals with war and peace,.

You cannot ask us to play by the rules and game mechanics in Civ3 when it suits you and ask us to play by some implicit interpretation of what constitutes war and peace in another situation when that suits you better. The game mechanics are very clear in this case, we did not break any peace agreement. I know the situation was a test of your reactions, unfortunately you reacted in a way we sort of feared you would. Not accepting to play by the game mechanics in Civ3 but wanting to make your own interpretation of the situation. Pity, I thought we were in agreement about accepting the good and the bad parts of Civ3 game mechanics as a result of the SABER affair. You guys on Coucil also happened to be some of the most vocal back then. Already forgotten what you demanded of us?

If there hadn't been the other 13 GALLEYS waiting to unload units off our shores, we certainly hadn't reacted this way. :p



More explorers, Magellan didn't circumnavigate the globe with one ship.

Wow i guess i'm late to this party. Don't check for a few days and a war happens:lol:

Anyway we didn't break any deals, as Whomp said nothing was agreed upon about units not going through each others territory. And as it was agrued before a game mechanic isn't an exploit, so the game allowing a team to walk around another teams land without a ROP also isn't an exploit.



If there hadn't been the other 13 GALLEYS waiting to unload units off our shores, we certainly hadn't reacted this way. :p




We wanted to explore quickly and move on to the next island to explore it too:)

Everyone should recognize that the Council's announcement and subsequent discussion is in-game propaganda. It's role-playing and part of what should make multiplayer civ fun. When a war starts, each side blames the other and vilifies the enemy.

If you don't take everything as a personal attack, you may find games can be enjoyable.

But one could assume that BABE isn't too unhappy with what happened after their "scouts" landed...

And - just hypothetically naturally - they maybe intended such a reaction?

The last few pages of this thread are really...interesting.

These are just my personal thoughts and have nothing to do with what my team is thinking - naturally.

I like how your mind works Calis, or have you read our team thread? :D

, or have you read our team thread? :D

Darn, I didn't expect it to be that obvious ;)

Everyone should recognize that the Council's announcement and subsequent discussion is in-game propaganda. It's role-playing and part of what should make multiplayer civ fun. When a war starts, each side blames the other and vilifies the enemy.

If you don't take everything as a personal attack, you may find games can be enjoyable.


Propaganda? We only speak the truth ;)

More explorers, Magellan didn't circumnavigate the globe with one ship.

Yeah right... :rolleyes:
He had to fear to lose ships by pirates, storms... :shifty:
You won't tell me BABE galleys with units on board ended their turn on ocean tiles, will you? :dubious:

Anyway, don't take things personal, chamnix put in the right words. :thumbsup:

However I'm glad to see so many active BABE players here - we had already feared we were facing a two-men-show :scared: :D

So both parties feel deceived and righteous (not unfamiliar at a start of a war) and all other parties have to make up their mind whom to blame.

Anyway, The Council did not complain that BABE were cheating but were just argue why this time not the war declaring party is the aggressor but the party declared upon - an act that happened many times in history.

It's the appropriate provocation that wins this part of the war: The Question of Guilt. It's always a matter of interpretation for the other nations. They will have to make up their mind if the DoW was justified or overdrawn.

I'm sure, they will do. :)

More explorers, Magellan didn't circumnavigate the globe with one ship.

Magellan didn't really circumnavigate - only one ship made it all the way around, and Magellan wasn't even on it. He had already died in the Philippines. Out of 5 ships that left Spain, only one returned. Would that be an acceptable fate for the Babe Flotilla?

I have just about had it with some of the comments thrown at us in Team Babe.

[...]

You cannot ask us to play by the rules and game mechanics in Civ3 when it suits you and ask us to play by some implicit interpretation of what constitutes war and peace in another situation when that suits you better.
Wotan, you're mixing things up. Please read what Chamnix said, quoted below. There's a HUGE difference between breaking the rules and breaking a treaty. Breaking a treaty is perfectly allowed by the rules. It is an in-game, in-character offense, which is very much part of the game. Everything I've said on the matter in this thread has been totally in-character, with absolutely no ill intentions or hard feelings towards the players on the BABE team. It's propaganda, no more no less. If you break a treaty with an NPC in a solo game, the AI won't trade with you again (diplomatic repercussions), but it doesn't mean you're cheating. This is no different.

Breaking the rules is very much frowned upon and prohibited. We're not accusing you of breaking any rules, what you've done is perfectly legal as far as the game is concerned. We're not asking you to do anything differently (well, of course we are, get away from us! :gripe: ;)), you are playing by the rules and mechanics we've all agreed upon.

Everyone should recognize that the Council's announcement and subsequent discussion is in-game propaganda. It's role-playing and part of what should make multiplayer civ fun. When a war starts, each side blames the other and vilifies the enemy.

If you don't take everything as a personal attack, you may find games can be enjoyable.
Exactly. We are not calling you bad players or cheaters or anything of the sort. You landed a force on our continent, and we explained in-character why we thought this was a violation of our treaty. We didn't expect you to care much since you seem very set on bringing war to our continent anyway. You're the big bad enemy now, and we'll employ whatever propaganda we can. :p

I understand why you may be extra-sensitive after the last round of discussion. But please realize that this is a completely different thing. The discussion then was centered on game mechanics and possible cheating/exploiting. This is in-character diplomatic propaganda, which is very much part of the game. I truly hope you can see and appreciate that difference. :)

More explorers, Magellan didn't circumnavigate the globe with one ship.
Explorers you say? Well, if this is all one big misunderstanding on our part then we are of course duly sorry for our harsh treatment of your explorers. Of course you could have contacted us first to assure us of your honorable intentions, or deigned to answer either of our attempts at contacting you through the proper diplomatic channels. But we can overlook these things for the time being. If you truly mean us no harm, then we will of course make amends for the damages done to you. If no more units set foot on our continent, and we have sufficient assurances that your fleet has sailed elsewhere, then we will be more than happy to pay the cost of your poor lost explorers in gold or other currency.

I know I can safely make such promises without consulting my team first since we all know what the chances are of those premises ever happening. ;)

Propaganda? We only speak the truth ;)

I said the Council's announcement and subsequent discussion were propaganda. Team Saber would never doubt anything our good friends the Babes said ;).

Magellan didn't really circumnavigate - only one ship made it all the way around, and Magellan wasn't even on it. He had already died in the Philippines. Out of 5 ships that left Spain, only one returned. Would that be an acceptable fate for the Babe Flotilla?

Well, you know actually, if Team BABE were to make it into the school history textbooks ~500 years from now...required reading for every school student...that might be quite an acceptable fate. :mischief:

Speaking for myself only...not as representative of our entire team. :D

My random thoughts on this highly entertaining thread.

There wasn't a treaty broken until Council attacked us.

No treaty was broken by our side, if anyone is being dishonourable its the Council by killing our two explorers during a time where we had peace.

Didn't Hitler say that when Germany was attacked by Poland in 1939?


It's rather dishonest to claim that such a landing isn't an invasion.

Honesty isn't required by the rules.

I have just about had it with some of the comments thrown at us in Team Babe.

Wotan, I'm sorry if I insulted you, but you are certainly not a bad civ 3 player. I think the main reason no one wanted BABE to retire was because you're not bad players, you're good players, and we want to play the game with someone that knows how even though the risk is we might lose to you. My chief and only complaint was you guys giving up. No one really asked you to be nice and stay on your island, why would we?
And on the plus side for you, you don't have to worry about not having a war with your rapidly obsoleteing army before marines, isn't that what you wanted? Good luck with that.



Anyway, don't take things personal, chamnix put in the right words. :thumbsup:

I agree completely. This is a game, some one has to lose, but it doesn't mean we aren't all still friends, or at least mutual players that have respect for each other.

However I'm glad to see so many active BABE players here - we had already feared we were facing a two-men-show :scared: :D

As I said before, I never actually wanted BABE to retire. I just didn't want to end up in a BABE concentration camp/thong factory weaving thongs 18hrs a day.

One final note:

I don't know how many of you play or watch football, specifically the American football with the strange shaped ball and touchdowns, but you never go against your own team whether it's true or not. You can see your own receiver drop the ball and yell it's a good catch and the opposing receiver make a good catch and yell up and down that it was dropped. It's all part of the game.

If anyone was complaining on the SABER side about what's right and what isn't it's mostly because we don't want to lose. If the Council is complaining because of being invaded it's probably because they don't want to lose. Babe was complaining about SABER blocking their invasions because they wanted to win, aka didn't want to lose. After this is all over we can sit back and say "that was a good tactic there" or "you really outsmarted them here" but while the game is on we always will support our own teams and cry foul upon the others. It's just the way games are.

Of course you don't. In that case, history would have been full of non-wars ending with countless casualties. Of course, it is the honorable thing to do to declare war before you conduct any hostile acts. But war begins either when war is declared, or, in the cases where honor is set aside, when the first hostile act is conducted.
I thought we agreed way back Civ3 is a game and that the game mechanics rule not examples from real life. Only just found this example of non consistent argumentation. You argued game mechanics should take precendence during the SABER affair, please own up to your own opinion now. Don't hide behind "in character" arguments as you have in your later posts. You replied to Whomp et al not as "diplomat of the Council" but as Niklas. At least own up to that.

To preempt similar confusion or attempts to use such arguments to evade owning up to what you require of others I would like threads to be either "in character" or not. Not this absolutely ridiculous mix where someone can try to hide behind excuses that they are just saying things "in character".

Hey everyone, I'm back from the lake! :wavey: Did I miss anything?

… <reading> …

Ahh! :eek:

So… BABE sailed a completely peaceful fleet of ships all the way to our island, landed a group of peace-loving Mounted Warriors in a totally non-hostile action on our beaches, and then the warmongers that took over the diplomacy at The Council in my absence mercilessly attacked them in an absolutely unprovoked manner?!?

How could things have gone so wrong?!?
Looks like I'll need to do some housecleaning now that I'm back…

:)

I thought we agreed way back Civ3 is a game and that the game mechanics rule not examples from real life. Only just found this example of non consistent argumentation. You argued game mechanics should take precendence during the SABER affair, please own up to your own opinion now. Don't hide behind "in character" arguments as you have in your later posts. You replied to Whomp et al not as "diplomat of the Council" but as Niklas. At least own up to that.
:confused: Do you truly not see the difference? Yes, I argued that game mechanics should be considered during rules discussions. We're playing a game, and the rules for that game must by necessity be decided on from an out-of-character perspective. That is my opinion, and I will definitely own up to that. This is a completely different situation. No rules questions are involved, it's purely a matter of in-game diplomacy. Can you not see the difference? I really tried to explain it in my previous post, I really don't know what else to say to make you understand. But I'm going to try anyway.

We think you broke a treaty and we act accordingly, but we aren't accusing you of breaking any rules. There is absolutely no reason to feel slighted, from an OOC perspective we don't think you did anything wrong. Of course we don't like to be invaded, but that's the game. We do think you broke the treaty, both IC and OOC, but there's nothing wrong with that beyond the diplomatic repercussions. It's no worse than breaking a treaty with an AI in a solo game. You're not bad players for doing it, and obviously you have a different view on what happened. That's just to be expected. Why are you making it personal?

Yes, I did reply to Whomp as a diplomat of the Council, just as I believe he answered me as a diplomat of the BABEs when he refuted our news bulletin. You don't have to use a flowery voice or sign your messages with a funny title for it to be an in-game issue, the topic itself determines that. Most people reading this thread seem to have no problem separating the two, in all honesty I didn't think it was possible to misunderstand this. That kind of diplomatic mangling is exactly the kind of discussion that should be part of a game like this, just like Chamnix said, for the fun of everyone involved. Where's a good game without some diplomatic maneuvering? I'm mostly just sad, and quite a bit surprised, that you can't appreciate that.

Please Wotan, take a step back, try to relax, and then re-read this thread from the perspective that I'm actually telling the truth. Because I am. Truly, honestly.

Honesty isn't required by the rules.


So...BABE is a team of liars, and the other teams in the game should not believe any promises or treaties they make. Gotcha :)

No Niklas, I do not agree with you about this issue. We were told in a not very nice way to stop arguing thing not in the game mechanics during the SABER affair. War and peace is part of the Civ3 game mechanics, we signed a "PEACE TREATY" with you guys, so until war is declared we have not broken any "PEACE TREATY". I just object to be slandered by members of Council and called liers and dishonourable persons when we actually do as told, play the game according to the rules and game mechanics of Civ3. Now you tell us we should play according to your interpretation of what is war and peace? Sorry but I am really confused now.

You argue interpretations of the word peace while advocating playing by how Civ3 works in another case. Your words: "The treaty says that peace shall reign between our nations. You have landed military units on our shores, which is an act of aggression, and thus an act of war" and "deliberatly worded in a way that encompasses peace in its purest form."

I argue Civ3 only make a distiction between WAR and PEACE. So if not at war we are at peace, right? Or we are to abandon the argument we should take the good and the bad in Civ3 and be happy with it? Just because you are now less than happy about it?

In hindsight, this was the very reaction we hoped for.... When you were "suffering" from Civ3 mechanics it was OK to argue outside of them. In real life bla bla bla "The treaty says that peace shall reign between our nations. You have landed military units on our shores, which is an act of aggression, and thus an act of war" :lol: Well, not according to the Civ3 mechanics you are so fond of telling us we should stick to. ;)

Welcome back General_W! We've left you a little work to do.. :salute:

I really don't understand what the BABE players are all upset about. Whomp, Wotan, do you really expect anyone to believe that your invasion of the Council was anything other than an invasion?

Sure, you can try to pretend that your attack units were "peaceful explorers", but I think your intentions are crystal clear.

I just object to be slandered by members of Council and called liers and dishonourable persons when we actually do as told

Don't personalize it, Wotan. Nobody is calling you anything of the sort. Team The Council is calling Team Babe treaty-breakers in the MTDG II for in-game political reasons.

To quote what the wise General_W said so well last game:

Anyone ever played the board game “Diplomacy” ?
It’s very fun.

Anyway – when playing that game, nothing makes me more upset than when someone stabs me in the back right before I was planning on stabbing them in the back. Especially if they beat me to it by 1 turn!

So I make them pay by complaining loud and long about how dishonorable they are. (Knowing full well that we’d both be in the reverse position [me being the backstabber and them being the complainer] if they had just waited a turn!)

Then when it’s all over, we have a good laugh about the game.

If the Council had the Great Lighthouse and a strong military, they might have landed troops on Babe's land and argued just as vehemently that it was not an act of aggression then. As Marsden mentioned, whatever team you're on is always in the right. Last game MIA even tried to argue (somewhat unsuccessfully unfortunately :sad:) that simply establishing an embassy was an "act of war" but formally declaring war in-game without actually landing troops was not :crazyeye:.

You have done absolutely nothing wrong, and nobody is questioning your integrity. Team The Council is looking to gain in-game advantage by convincing people not to trust Team Babe this game. We are all just playing a game.

I just woke up from a nap; this is what I see so far:

Babe
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/MTDG2/BabeAtWar.jpg


The Council
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/MTDG2/CouncilAtWar.jpg

Rest of the World
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/MTDG2/WorldAtWave.jpg

Very well said Chamnix. :clap:


Just for the record… The Council loves peace, baby rabbits, and rainbows. We would never have invaded BABE. We make love, not war. :)


@CommandoBob… :lol:

Chamnix (or actually General_W) said it much better than I could, and has a better chance of getting across the infested borders I think. It's a game, and our wild accusations are in-game politics, nothing else. Please don't make it personal.

We don't feel that we're suffering from any game mechanics at all. You're fully in your right, by the rules, to land your troops without declaring war. We're going to complain loudly about it, but that doesn't mean we think you've done anything wrong... except we'd rather have peace of course, but that's a whole different matter. ;)

@CB: :rotfl:

CB : How did you manage to make a pic of the situation in the Gonger's pub ? :confused:

:cheers:

In game or not calling people liars and dishonourable is not fun. Games should be about having fun. So this game has just gone from a very low to extreme subzero. Real life is full of opportunities for people to live out their dark urges to be abusive so why do it in a game where we are supposed to be sharing an interest in one of the great games of our time? If nothing else this has taught me never to play multiplayer games on CivFanatics again.

(I actually would break a RL friendship if someone called me dishonourable and a liar without being able to show for a fact I was. Your reputation is everything, if someone call you a liar and dishonourable for whatever reason it risk sticking and eventually none can separate truth from fiction. That is why I object so strongly even if it is "only a game".)

Sigh, no one is calling you dishonorable on a liar Wotan. It's not even about it being "only a game". It's about it being about something inside the game, and not directed at you personally.

Have you ever played diplomacy or any similar game? Backstabbing is very much part of the game, as is in the extension lying. If you tried to be completely honest with everything you say and do in that game, you wouldn't last far. There are countless other games with the same property. I love those kinds of games. Nothing is more satisfactory than seeing your opponents surprised reaction to your backstab (hi PG! ;)). Does that make me a liar? Absolutely not, I would never lie about RL things. But I know to separate one from the other. If one of my adversaries in such a game would loudly proclaim me as a liar (which is likely to happen), I would laugh heartily and tell him he's a fool. I know he doesn't mean that I'm a liar in RL, he's talking about the game. Like General_W, he wishes he had done the same to me. And in the game, that's even a compliment!

This is not a game of diplomacy. It is not a game where lying and backstabbing are core features. But there is a definite element of diplomacy involved, and in that an element of roleplaying. We are not calling you a liar or dishonest. We are posturing and insulting your imaginary government! Games should indeed be about having fun, and roleplaying and posturing is very much part of what makes this game fun!

If you don't see or understand the difference, I'm sorry. Sorry that you've felt offended by things I've said, it was definitely never my intention. And sorry for you because of the fun you're missing out on.

Friends? :)

Real life is full of opportunities for people to live out their dark urges to be abusive so why do it in a game where we are supposed to be sharing an interest in one of the great games of our time?

Interesting position. :hmm:
I see it completely different: Real Life does not allow me to behave in a bad way (well most of the time - I've got children :evil: ).
In games I get the opportunity to be mean and treacherous, to fight and kill - maybe my life is too boring? :crazyeye:

Niklas and Cubsfan you're on. It will be especially fun to crush a cubs fan though there's nothing new with that.

On topic: Since I'm sure Council will pull a Saber all we can do is thank you for the war happiness for declaring war on us. Diplomacy in this game was pathetic so see you at bombers.

Niklas and Cubsfan you're on. It will be especially fun to crush a cubs fan though there's nothing new with that.
Alright, so how do we set this up? Who has the map, and how do we administer the game?

We could either request a handmade map or use one of the maps denyd is talking about. I'm ok with anyone willing to adminster the game and Beorn and I already have access to a private forum for spoilers so I would suggest you consider the same.

I'm for a standard kind of hub from a third party - surely someone from another team has a tiny pangea deathmatch PBEM map lying around.

We'll be right back with civ details and such.

Aye, we'll use our private forum for spoilers. I'm also ok with any setup, and a specialized tiny pangea deathmatch map sounds great.

Name: Beorn
Formal: Babes with big ...
Noun: Romans
Adjective: Roman
Title: Bear

Name: Whomp
Formal: Babes with less ...
Noun: Iroquois
Adjective: Iroquois
Title: Panda

Edited for the Admiral's suggestions, I'll let you guess where.

Hmm, you get first picks eh? Well fine, we'll take you anyway ;). Haven't heard back from cubsfan yet, but I will follow your set standard and use

Name: Niklas
Formal: Council
Noun: Aztecs
Adjective: Aztec
Title: Lambda

Aztecs for me then. :mischief:
Well we went in as (a short form of) 1-2-2-2-1, I actually thought you picked a single civ on purpose for that.

Heh, at the point I said that I still wasn't sure whether this was serious or not. But yeah, it's fine either way, no worries. In a way I did get first pick, so I'm happy. :D

Hmm, maybe we should start a separate thread for this, so as to not spam up our fine newspaper?

Quite true. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=5915689#post5915689)

Magellan didn't really circumnavigate - only one ship made it all the way around, and Magellan wasn't even on it. He had already died in the Philippines. Out of 5 ships that left Spain, only one returned. Would that be an acceptable fate for the Babe Flotilla?

Well he only had 5 didn't he, we sent out bigger numbers to make sure they all got back.

Niklas and Cubsfan you're on. It will be especially fun to crush a cubs fan though there's nothing new with that.

Since I'm sure Council will pull a Saber all we can do is thank you for the war happiness for declaring war on us. Diplomacy in this game was pathetic so see you at bombers.

Listen up Whomper... As head pathetic Gong negotiator and #1 Cubs fan I'm officially taking offense. It's gonna happen! :p :p

Our units were removed but only by aggressive acts of the Council. MIA got out it's lawyers in the last round and it seems as though we have a few in BABE this round. So Council has violated the peace agreement in technical terms and in principle. There is no way to prove that we (BABE) had any aggressive intentions. Honestly .. who invades with 2 Mounted warriors? :rolleyes:

The Council is so paranoid that their actions have started a war.

who invades with 2 Mounted warriors?

:agree: In all my years of playing CIV3, I have NEVER seen Mounted Warriors sailed across the ocean and moved into a rival's territory without a right of passage for anything other than totally peaceful exploration.

I must continue to apologize for the paranoid over-reaction of my team.


:)

Boy ... go away for a few days and look what happens. I love it. It looks like BABE is the only team having any fun. Get it on Whomp & Beorn-eL-Feared

Honestly .. who invades with 2 Mounted warriors? :rolleyes:

I might, if they were named

Geronimo
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/MTDG2/Geronimo.jpg

or

Sitting Bull.
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/MTDG2/Sitting_Bull.jpg

Data at Wiki:
Geronimo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geronimo)
Sitting Bull (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sitting_Bull)

Quoting from the local paper:
COUNCIL & BABE AT WAR

War came to our peaceful planet after a hunting accident on a remote beach resulted in a declaration of war from Council to Babe. According to local observers, the two Babe riders were killed by a couple of hunters when they were mistaken for wild goats. A spokesman for the hunters stated that they had just left a wedding reception where they might have had a couple of beers and shot at what appeared to them to be a couple of very ugly goats standing on the ridgeline at the edge of the hunting preserve.

General W, speaking for the government stated that he was very sorry that this unfortunate incident had taken place and was working to end the war quickly. The possibility of reparations was mentioned by an unnamed government source.

According to a source from the Babe government, the two horsemen were on a survey expedition and were caught unaware at the time of the attack. The other members of there party declined to come ashore until their safety could be assured. The leadership of Babe was quite upset at unexpected attack and promised an official reply later today.

Local officials are still investigating and no charges have been filed at the moment against the two.


All we know here in Saber is what we read in the newspaper :)

Didn't you know this was one elaborate ruse then to get saber to move their blockade out of the way???

Doh! And we already sent them astronomy so they could bring their blockade over here. :(

We're still building the caravels.

Dear Citizens of the World…

On behalf of The Council, I am pleased to present
The Fourth Edition
of this world’s first International Newspaper…

The RoundTable


We hope you enjoy!

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/GeneralW/EditionFour_Draft2.jpg


and the ImageShack/TubbyRower version…
http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/2655/editionfourdraft2nk2.th.jpg (http://img508.imageshack.us/my.php?image=editionfourdraft2nk2.jpg)

disclaimer:

Disclaimer:
"The RoundTable is published at the sole discretion of advisor to the council, General_W. All opinions are his alone, and do not necessarily reflect the opinion or positions of The Council government. Heck, even the 'facts' in this paper are viewed through his personal lens and may or may not accurately reflect the real or perceived state of world and/or game affairs. This paper may frequently contain what is known as 'sarcasm' and should be taken as it is intended – in fun. Hate mail may be sent to General_W via PM if you wish. General_W reserves the right to laugh uproariously at any hate mail he receives. This paper is not designed to provide up-to-date news, cure any diseases, provide well balanced opinion, or relieve inflammation of the foot. The Council hereby absolves itself from any responsibility from any actions the reader does or does not take based on this 'news' paper."

Harbinger was unbelievably lucky, it is a true case of divine intervention. ;)

On the topic and this is a quiz for everyone on this forum. You have the following units at your disposal, 5 vet Ancient Cavalry, 1 vet Medieval Infantry, 2 vet Horsemen, 9 reg Horsemen and a redlined Ancient cavalry. The stack you are about to attack has the following units in it, 1 vet Pike, 3 vet Medieval Infantry and 16 vet Mounted Warriors. So 20 defenders and 18 attackers. How would you allocate your attacking forces, in what order would you use your units?

We on team BABE are having a very interesting discussion about this and we want everyone to have a go at it. :lol:

Heres cubsfan's 2 cents. You should disband all you're units.

Vet MDI attack Vet Pike (60% chance to win)
3 Vet AC attack 3 Vet MDI (79% chance each win)
2 Vet AC attack 2 Vet MW (96% chance each win)
2 Vet Horse attack 2 Vet MW (79% chance each win)
9 Reg Horse attack 9 Vet MW (64% chance each win)

With those odds winning the first 7 would not be surprising and winning 6 or 7 of the last nine would be normal. With bad luck for the defenders it could have easily been 17 losses.

I probably wouldn't attack with the red-lined AC (only 33% chance to win)

*** Odds compliments of the CivIII Combat Calculator ***

@Wotan… uhm, you can see The Council’s answer to your question in the Battle Logs we sent you :D

As everyone can note in our newspaper, the RNG wasn’t exactly kind to us - except for that Harbinger thing - so we’ve decided not to burn all the RNG’s holy books… for now…


Reposted for ease of reference:
----------------------------------------------------------
Dear Citizens of the World…

On behalf of The Council, I am pleased to present
The Fourth Edition
of this world’s first International Newspaper…

The RoundTable


We hope you enjoy!

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/GeneralW/EditionFour_Draft2.jpg


and the ImageShack/TubbyRower version…
http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/2655/editionfourdraft2nk2.th.jpg (http://img508.imageshack.us/my.php?image=editionfourdraft2nk2.jpg)

disclaimer:

Disclaimer:
"The RoundTable is published at the sole discretion of advisor to the council, General_W. All opinions are his alone, and do not necessarily reflect the opinion or positions of The Council government. Heck, even the 'facts' in this paper are viewed through his personal lens and may or may not accurately reflect the real or perceived state of world and/or game affairs. This paper may frequently contain what is known as 'sarcasm' and should be taken as it is intended – in fun. Hate mail may be sent to General_W via PM if you wish. General_W reserves the right to laugh uproariously at any hate mail he receives. This paper is not designed to provide up-to-date news, cure any diseases, provide well balanced opinion, or relieve inflammation of the foot. The Council hereby absolves itself from any responsibility from any actions the reader does or does not take based on this 'news' paper."

On the topic and this is a quiz for everyone on this forum. You have the following units at your disposal, 5 vet Ancient Cavalry, 1 vet Medieval Infantry, 2 vet Horsemen, 9 reg Horsemen and a redlined Ancient cavalry. The stack you are about to attack has the following units in it, 1 vet Pike, 3 vet Medieval Infantry and 16 vet Mounted Warriors. So 20 defenders and 18 attackers. How would you allocate your attacking forces, in what order would you use your units?
I can't answer fully without disclosing secret info ;), but the gist of it is this:

An AC has almost the same chances of winning against the pike as a mace, and much higher chances of survival since he can retreat. And since we only care to remove the pike from the top of the stack, use the AC first. Then use the mace and ACs to take out the maces. And once you have a MW on top, order doesn't matter any more, so take them as they come. We knew we were attacking with all of them anyway. :p

EDIT: Oh, and I didn't expect to win with that 1hp AC, but sometimes winning isn't the important thing. ;)

EDIT2:
As everyone can note in our newspaper, the RNG wasn’t exactly kind to us
I did a lot of calculations for this with Offa's brilliant simulator before playing. On average, the outcome would have been 12.5 units surviving for our side, with one of them retreating, so 11 BABE losses. So I would say we had slightly better than average luck. You can't get perfect simulations, but killing at least 13 units was ~58% chance, but then the last attackers would face damaged troops so in reality our odds of taking 13 were slightly lower than that, probably ~40%.

EDIT: Oh, and I didn't expect to win with that 1hp AC, but sometimes winning isn't the important thing. ;)
What is the important thing, if not winning? :dubious:
Creating a martyr? :D

What is the important thing, if not winning? :dubious:
Creating a martyr? :D
Well, of course winning is the important thing. But it's winning the war that matters, not winning every single battle. Sometimes you have to make sacrifices. And I can't state publically why attacking with him was a good idea, that would give the BABEs too much info. :mischief:

On the topic and this is a quiz for everyone on this forum. You have the following units at your disposal, 5 vet Ancient Cavalry, 1 vet Medieval Infantry, 2 vet Horsemen, 9 reg Horsemen and a redlined Ancient cavalry. The stack you are about to attack has the following units in it, 1 vet Pike, 3 vet Medieval Infantry and 16 vet Mounted Warriors. So 20 defenders and 18 attackers. How would you allocate your attacking forces, in what order would you use your units?

We on team BABE are having a very interesting discussion about this and we want everyone to have a go at it. :lol:

Odds courtesy of Offa’s town capture simulator:

In the order Wotan listed them (all Ancient Cavalry first, then MDI):

Mean surviving attackers: 12.9
Mean losses: 5.1
Mean surviving defenders: 7.81

In the order denyd suggested (MDI first, then all Ancient Cavalry - but I included using the redlined AC as well last):

Mean surviving attackers: 12.75
Mean losses: 5.25
Mean surviving defenders: 7.72

In the order I think Niklas said (1 Ancient Cavalry, then MDI, then back to Ancient Cavalry*):

Mean surviving attackers: 12.83
Mean losses: 5.17
Mean surviving defenders: 7.74

------------------------------------------------------------------

Actual surviving attackers: 14
Actual losses: 4
Actual surviving defenders: 7



*The Council wasn't necessarily only attacking with 1 Ancient Cavalry first - if the first one lost, but the pike was still on top, it sounds like they would have used a second AC before the mace, but that's too hard for me to do.

@Chamnix, maybe what you suggest is that it does not matter in which order you attack. I would agree to an extent.

I might also use a ACav to attack the top defender due to retreat odds.

There is one thing though, no sane mind would attack with a 1/5 ACav. Unless you got a yellow/red enemy. The only thing you achieve with this is a free chance for promotion. In case you attack and your unit dies immediately, the next attack must succeed in order to prevent promotion.

The Council wasn't necessarily only attacking with 1 Ancient Cavalry first - if the first one lost, but the pike was still on top, it sounds like they would have used a second AC before the mace, but that's too hard for me to do.
If the pike had stayed on top (3+ hp), I would likely have used a second AC yes. If he had been yellowed he would have come up after the maces but before the MWs, so likely an AC then as well (unless the fighting went really bad before that and I didn't have one left), but that wouldn't affect the order.

There is one thing though, no sane mind would attack with a 1/5 ACav. Unless you got a yellow/red enemy. The only thing you achieve with this is a free chance for promotion. In case you attack and your unit dies immediately, the next attack must succeed in order to prevent promotion.
I could tell you my reasoning, but then I'd have to silence you. :p

Seriously though, dying immediately was a 25% risk. I'm not sure of the exact odds for promotions, but even if promotions were assured, there was still a ~56% chance of taking at least 2 hp, and then the promotion wouldn't matter, you'd still be better off than you started (in terms of hp taken that is). I was expecting to lose the AC, but as I said, it's the war that counts.

As for sane mind... well, let's just say sanity wasn't even 50% assured. :mischief: You can read about that particular aspect in our forum after it's been declassified...

Seriously though, dying immediately was a 25% risk. I'm not sure of the exact odds for promotions, but even if promotions were assured, there was still a ~56% chance of taking at least 2 hp, and then the promotion wouldn't matter, you'd still be better off than you started (in terms of hp taken that is). I was expecting to lose the AC, but as I said, it's the war that counts.One would use such a desperate move only when the situation is really desperate. I can think of a situation where there is one attacker left and this one attacker could wreak havoc.
I would certainly never expect someone to use that unit in the midst of a series of attacks. So, there is something creepy about this. As I said, nobody would use the unit in such a situation unless he had some psychic powers to know the outcome...and that might just leave a bad taste...

I would certainly never expect someone to use that unit in the midst of a series of attacks. So, there is something creepy about this.

It will all be clear when you can read our forum. There is indeed a rational explanation, but you'd have to know quite a lot about our situation over the last three turns or so to be able to guess it ;)

I don't know the situation, but I'd take a slight chance with a 3 attacking 1 over a 2 with the same hp defending a 3. Chances are you're going to die either way, at least attacking might do some damage first.

One would use such a desperate move only when the situation is really desperate. I can think of a situation where there is one attacker left and this one attacker could wreak havoc.
I would certainly never expect someone to use that unit in the midst of a series of attacks. So, there is something creepy about this. As I said, nobody would use the unit in such a situation unless he had some psychic powers to know the outcome...and that might just leave a bad taste...
This is definitely one step too far. I'm going to try very hard to stay civil here, but quite frankly I've had quite enough of you guys. If you don't enjoy this game unless you can win easily on your own terms, go play the AI. Cause I'm going to continue doing whatever I can to see you lose, within the rules thank you very much. Bad taste? Oh yes, very much so. Your invasion force was beaten down by an ever so slightly better margin than the average outcome, and you cry cheat? That's simply ridiculous, and bad sportsmanship if I ever saw it.

I had several good reasons to do that attack. They did not involve psychic powers, however much I wish I had those. Even disregarding the context we are in, the attack was not a "desperate move" to use "only when the situation is really desperate" (see Marsden's comment). I cannot honestly say that I would have done the same thing 10 times out of 10 when placed in that same situation, as there are indeed several things that speak against the attack, but I'm quite positive I would have done it more than half of those 10 times.

I would have countered your claim by saying only a bad player wouldn't consider losing a unit for the greater good (referencing the fact that newbies often try to preserve every single unit all the time) but I don't want to be accused of bad manners again. So I'll leave those to others.

:cry: Drat, Niklas!

You spoiled my attempt to send their imaginations running. :mischief:

However, I'm not sure the those comments were intended to imply what Niklas read into them. Were they? :nono:

Oh please peter. "Nobody would", "something creepy", "psychic powers" and "bad taste". What else could he possibly be talking about? No he didn't say it straight out, but the innuendo wasn't even thinly veiled. :rolleyes:

Since I'm not privy to the layout, I can't be sure how I'd have played this, but if I had a town range of the MW stack with the 1/5 AC in it and there was a chance that the AC would be forced to defend against a MW, then he'd be heading off to battle. I'm guessing (no access to combat calculator at work) that attacking with a 1/5 AC against a 4/4 MW has better odds of success than defending.

Mounted warriors were extremely lucky in the last MTDG against TNT's immortals. There have been too few battles here to start wondering who luck is favoring this time around. Whichever way it goes, luck is part of this game. I would hasten to point out that there are games that don't involve luck - like Diplomacy.

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x80/cubsfan6506/untitled-8.jpg

Exactly. Thanks again for the confirmation cubsfan.

Is their some sort of rule that the most likely outcome has to occur that I'm un aware of? As Niklas said he was no attacking expecting to win. Just hoping to do damage. This would put you're precious mounted warrior out of submission for a while. The odds were slim that you're mounted warrior would walk away undamaged from it's confrontation. . .. .. .. . happens.

If Team Babe really thinks there has been foul play (I admit I don't know everything Babe knows, but as of now I definitely don't think there has been) then Babe should ask RegentMan/GingerAle to make a ruling. They have access to all the information (including Counsel's discussions and the save itself).

If the admins rule there has not been anything untoward, then Babe should accept that and move on. If I may quote the wise Wotan:

I actually would break a RL friendship if someone called me dishonourable and a liar without being able to show for a fact I was. Your reputation is everything, if someone call you a liar and dishonourable for whatever reason it risk sticking and eventually none can separate truth from fiction. That is why I object so strongly even if it is "only a game".

You better be damn sure about yourselves before you start throwing around accusations like that in a public forum.

We've already asked the admins to look at the save but there's no way to prove a reload.

Is there some Admin feature like they use on the SGOTM or GOTM to find out the number of reloads?

Disclaimer: I have not played in either the SGOTM and GOTM

Whomp: :thumbsup: on saying "reload".

I am not sure exactly how to go about finding the number of reloads. I think it involves the use of a hex editor or something (which I know nothing about).

Let's face it - we've all played games where the luck has been against us. It's human nature to call it unfair when we lose battles we should win, but when those same battles go our way, we don't call for a more equal RNG. Seeing as this hasn't been occurring in a pattern that cannot be explained by the RNG alone, I don't see it as much of a problem yet. If it grows, regardless of team, sure, we can investigate.

For now, there's no reason to accuse other teams of foul play.

I am not sure exactly how to go about finding the number of reloads. I think it involves the use of a hex editor or something (which I know nothing about).
Maybe you don't understand the hex editor but would you be adverse if I asked two people who might?

There is no way to prove a reload, but there are enough quotes like these

And I can't state publically why attacking with him was a good idea, that would give the BABEs too much info. :mischief:

I could tell you my reasoning, but then I'd have to silence you. :p

It will all be clear when you can read our forum. There is indeed a rational explanation, but you'd have to know quite a lot about our situation over the last three turns or so to be able to guess it ;)

that a neutral party looking at the Council's forums should have a much better idea of the truth than anyone outside their forums.

You've asked an admin to review, he has, and he determined that there isn't a problem. I suggest Team Babe stop slinging mud unless they know something Ginger_Ale doesn't.

Maybe you don't understand the hex editor but would you be adverse if I asked two people who might?
What else could be found out from hex editing?

now i need 10 letters...

Unbelievable.
I, for one, would welcome the hex edit checks.
I will also welcome the repentant apology that would no doubt follow.

But what do I know? I’m not accustomed to calling people cheaters when a couple die rolls don’t go my way.
First it’s cheating to block your coast, now it’s apparently also cheating to win a 27% odds battle. I shudder to think what nefarious means the eventually winning team will use to acquire their ill-gotten victory. A cheater cultural victory? Or that old cheater standby, the space ship?

Maybe you don't understand the hex editor but would you be adverse if I asked two people who might?


*sigh*

What is it with people on Internet forums using "adverse (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=adverse+&x=37&y=16)" where "averse (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=averse+&x=37&y=16)" is clearly the right word for the situation? :gripe:

I would like the council to talk to the people doing the hex edit checks first. I would also like to be assured no other info can be gootne out of hex editing.

Unbelievable.
I, for one, would welcome the hex edit checks.
I will also welcome the repentant apology that would no doubt follow.

But what do I know? I’m not accustomed to calling people cheaters when a couple die rolls don’t go my way.

Aww, don't be so hard on the BABEs. They're understandably :confused: and :cry: that they took such a harsh blow immediately upon landing, and they want to make sure that everything is on the up-and-up, I'm sure :scan:


Everyone, please repeat after me: "It's only a game. It's only a game. It's only a game."

Got it? :goodjob: Now keep repeating after me:

"Learn the difference between lose and loose, between to and too, and between averse and adverse. These things are far more important than the results of a Civ3 battle."

:cool:

Its only the most important thing ever. Its only the most important thing ever. Its only the most important thing ever.

*sigh*

I guess I couldn't expect anything more from a Cubs fan :p

they want to make sure that everything is on the up-and-up, I'm sure

And a PM to the admins to check our forum would have been a perfectly acceptable, if still paranoid and mistrustful, way of checking into it.
Not that I'm even sure I know what "it" is.

Precisely because this IS “just a game” it’s upsetting to me when people resort to accusations of cheating over a bad RNG roll.

I mean, why do these BABEers think there’s a :spear: smiley on CivFantaics??? It's because that happens sometimes.
Sure it’s upsetting to be on the tank end, but it’s certainly not sufficient grounds to start slinging accusations of “cheater” around in a friendly game.

Anyway... [ :deadhorse: /]

Just out of curiosity, General_W, is that horse from one of your A-Cavs or from a BABE MW? :p

It's dead... so that'd make it a former BABE Mounted Warrior :D

To paraphrase from one of my favorite movies:

Vizzini(Babe): WE LOST A UNIT? INCONCEIVABLE
Inigo (everyone else): You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means

Hey, I've got an idea. Why don't we post about something other than how useless this tired conversation is. When you people get your panties bunched up, you like to keep 'em like that, huh? Just walk away. No one has to prove anything.

@Denyd: What movie is that? I love to use odd quotes from films whnever possible. ;)

On to business in an attempt to cool things off. The SABER incident (our label, please don't get into a rage over using it now) was not about winning at all cost. We found the situation very frustrating, postponing every attempt at warfare on land until marines was a bit annoying to say the least. Asking for a change in the current setup was a bit difficult so what we actually advocated was to drop this game, start a new game with at least one unit in each era capable of amphib landings. our suggestion Archer and LBman. Starting all over again would also give everyone a second chance at the GLH we have in this game. How that ever turned into the "wanting to win at any price" is really beyond me. It was very uncomfortable being at the recieving end of some of the lowest remarks thrown at us. And we did transform into a team of stubborn "rules lawyers" as a result, only willing to discuss game mechanics as the arbitator in any conflict of opinions, just as that was used against us in the heat of battle during the incident.

In this incident there was one thing and one thing only that triggered the chain of events and that was the 1/5 attacking as the 13th unit in a series of attacks. one of two attacks that would let him kill his adversary and survive. there has never been a complaint as to the statistics of the battle series, which unfortunately is used as an argument we are bad losers complaining about. I'm not sure where that came from?

I had a long discussion with Niklas yesteday eveing and feel much happier now. I just wish that 1/5 had not attacked when it did or we would not have had yet another bitter discussion about the BABEs being such bad players and sore losers. We'll continue to do as told, play according to the game mechanics of Civ3. ;) I also told Niklas we do any battles in our turn in a predetermined sequence to avoid discussions about why we did them in that specific order. To paraphrase Niklas "We could tell you our reasoning, but then we'd have to silence you. " There are several sites for potential battles so this is to avoid any questions about sequence.

This is definitely one step too far. I'm going to try very hard to stay civil here, but quite frankly I've had quite enough of you guys. If you don't enjoy this game unless you can win easily on your own terms, go play the AI. Cause I'm going to continue doing whatever I can to see you lose, within the rules thank you very much. Bad taste? Oh yes, very much so. Your invasion force was beaten down by an ever so slightly better margin than the average outcome, and you cry cheat? That's simply ridiculous, and bad sportsmanship if I ever saw it.Seems like there has been some clearing up going on between parties. I do not want to imply you are a cheater, this is only a game anyway and people should take it that way.
Babe's have been getting a beating many a times already. Now the RnG added insult to injury. Next time it better makes sure we also get some luck here.

So, Niklas, don't take my comment as a accusation of being a cheater, thanks.

Wotan: Check out Princess Bride - It's a great movie, with a great cast (including Andre the Giant & Billy Crystal) and a great script. There are dozens of great quotes on the IMDB you can check out.

My favorite scene is a battle between two great swordsmen with this dialogue:

Inigo Montoya: You are wonderful.
Man in Black: Thank you; I've worked hard to become so.
Inigo Montoya: I admit it, you are better than I am.
Man in Black: Then why are you smiling?
Inigo Montoya: Because I know something you don't know.
Man in Black: And what is that?
Inigo Montoya: I... am not left-handed.
[Moves his sword to his right hand and gains an advantage]
Man in Black: You are amazing.
Inigo Montoya: I ought to be, after 20 years.
Man in Black: Oh, there's something I ought to tell you.
Inigo Montoya: Tell me.
Man in Black: I'm not left-handed either.
[Moves his sword to his right hand and regains his advantage]

Whomp, I'm not saying you can ask them. Go ahead if you want to.

I think the whole situation is sorted now and put to rest. Niklas and I had a very good discussion yesterday evening. One thing led to another and the whole thing escalated to a level that was "un-fun". In hindsight I just wish they had not used the 1/5. that was the trigger that started this whole business. Just a small caveat regarding this. I am not trying to reignite anything with thsi atatement.

I've received an apology from Wotan, and from my point of view the whole thing is over. I'm glad I was asleep when the last rounds of the discussion were raging. I'm sorry this ever happened, but like Wotan I feel a lot better after our conversation. Now I'm going back to playing the game and killing MWs with damaged units. Wotan didn't leave me with much choice. ;)

Whomp: tell me the names of the 2 people you'd like to ask.

And the rest of you: Stay polite. And publicaly calling a team cheaters without rocksolid evidence (something that you as players of a participating team never have without outside intervention) is against (my interpretation of) the forum-rules.
PM the game-admins -or me- if you have doubts of in-game happenings and those will be investigated.

*sigh*

What is it with people on Internet forums using "adverse (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=adverse+&x=37&y=16)" where "averse (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=averse+&x=37&y=16)" is clearly the right word for the situation? :gripe:

Thank you, I did not know that. :thumbsup:

To paraphrase from one of my favorite movies:

Vizzini(Babe): WE LOST A UNIT? INCONCEIVABLE
Inigo (everyone else): You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means

That was a great movie. I like this part:
Andre knocks on Billy Crystal's door: "Open up, I'm on the Brute Squad."
Billy Crystal opens the door: "On the Brute Squad? You are the Brute Squad!"

So if Wotan and Niklas made up does that mean the war is over? :confused:

BTW, I really thought BABE would be happy if we let them land. Still :confused:

Whomp, I'm not saying you can ask them. Go ahead if you want to.

Whomp: tell me the names of the 2 people you'd like to ask.

And the rest of you: Stay polite. And publicaly calling a team cheaters without rocksolid evidence (something that you as players of a participating team never have without outside intervention) is against (my interpretation of) the forum-rules.
PM the game-admins -or me- if you have doubts of in-game happenings and those will be investigated.
Don't worry about it. I've completely lost interest in this game and have too much happening over the next three months to spend any energy on this anymore.

Professor Elephantium--thanks for pointing out my poor syntax.

Whew – does this mean that our newspaper thread will go back to being just a friendly (if more boring) propaganda news dispensing thread?

Hope so!
On with the fun!
:D

And now… reposted, for those wondering why this thread is called "The RoundTable" !
----------------------------------------------------------
Dear Citizens of the World…

On behalf of The Council, I am pleased to present
The Fourth Edition
of this world’s first International Newspaper…

The RoundTable


We hope you enjoy!

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/GeneralW/EditionFour_Draft2.jpg


and the ImageShack/TubbyRower version…
http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/2655/editionfourdraft2nk2.th.jpg (http://img508.imageshack.us/my.php?image=editionfourdraft2nk2.jpg)

disclaimer:

Disclaimer:
"The RoundTable is published at the sole discretion of advisor to the council, General_W. All opinions are his alone, and do not necessarily reflect the opinion or positions of The Council government. Heck, even the 'facts' in this paper are viewed through his personal lens and may or may not accurately reflect the real or perceived state of world and/or game affairs. This paper may frequently contain what is known as 'sarcasm' and should be taken as it is intended – in fun. Hate mail may be sent to General_W via PM if you wish. General_W reserves the right to laugh uproariously at any hate mail he receives. This paper is not designed to provide up-to-date news, cure any diseases, provide well balanced opinion, or relieve inflammation of the foot. The Council hereby absolves itself from any responsibility from any actions the reader does or does not take based on this 'news' paper."

Dear Citizens of the World…

On behalf of The Council, I am pleased to present
The Fifth Edition
of this world’s first International Newspaper…

The RoundTable


We hope you enjoy!

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/GeneralW/EditionFive_Draft2.jpg




disclaimer:

Disclaimer:
"The RoundTable is published at the sole discretion of advisor to the council, General_W. All opinions are his alone, and do not necessarily reflect the opinion or positions of The Council government. Heck, even the 'facts' in this paper are viewed through his personal lens and may or may not accurately reflect the real or perceived state of world and/or game affairs. This paper may frequently contain what is known as 'sarcasm' and should be taken as it is intended – in fun. Hate mail may be sent to General_W via PM if you wish. General_W reserves the right to laugh uproariously at any hate mail he receives. This paper is not designed to provide up-to-date news, cure any diseases, provide well balanced opinion, or relieve inflammation of the foot. The Council hereby absolves itself from any responsibility from any actions the reader does or does not take based on this 'news' paper."

Well done on the Chapel :clap:

I'd like to renew my subscription to the only newspaper in the world please.

I had expected you to build the MoM :D

By the way, does anyone else think the civ designers did a rather poor job on the Sistine Chapel wonder screenshot?

(compare (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ee/Sixtina.jpg))

I had expected you to build the MoM :D

By the way, does anyone else think the civ designers did a rather poor job on the Sistine Chapel wonder screenshot?

(compare (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ee/Sixtina.jpg))

Frankly? The original doesn't look very impressive either...

Frankly? The original doesn't look very impressive either...

True, but I find in game it looks like a rather nice looking (marble) building, standing in a square or something, while in reality, it's just a brick building in the middle of a group of buildings. IMO the game makes it look to good.

The ceiling is definitely nice though ;)

@Marsden – no problem! You can expect to receive our bill very soon :)

@Dutchfire – I know! I was actually kind of amazed when I visited the Vatican and went to see the Sistine Chapel… not what I was expecting at all. I guess I was expecting a Sistine Cathedral! Anyway – the paintings inside are the amazing part. :)

Will you accept a two party out of state bad check?

All payments must be in Quattaloos, I'm afraid
:)

How about if I send a cashiers check for 1.2 Million Quattaloos and you send my the change in US Dollars (though they're not worth much more than a Quattaloo at the moment). I can be reached at the Nigeran Embassy where I'm busy trying to find homes for the millions of dollars left behind by victims of numerous plane, boat and car accidents.

@Dutchfire – I know! I was actually kind of amazed when I visited the Vatican and went to see the Sistine Chapel… not what I was expecting at all. I guess I was expecting a Sistine Cathedral! Anyway – the paintings inside are the amazing part. :)

I'm actually rather amazed that the Sistine Chapel (under various names) featured in every incarnation of civ (as far as I know), while other, more beautful, Roman landmarks are underrepresented. The Saint Peter (1 appearance), the Pantheon (0 appearances) and the Saint John in Lateran (0 appearances) all beat the Sistine Chapel in my opinion.

Dear Citizens of the World…

On behalf of The Council, I am pleased to present
The Sixth Edition
of this world’s first International Newspaper…

The RoundTable


We hope you enjoy!

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/GeneralW/EditionSix_Draft1.jpg




disclaimer:

Disclaimer:
"The RoundTable is published at the sole discretion of advisor to the council, General_W. All opinions are his alone, and do not necessarily reflect the opinion or positions of The Council government. Heck, even the 'facts' in this paper are viewed through his personal lens and may or may not accurately reflect the real or perceived state of world and/or game affairs. This paper may frequently contain what is known as 'sarcasm' and should be taken as it is intended – in fun. Hate mail may be sent to General_W via PM if you wish. General_W reserves the right to laugh uproariously at any hate mail he receives. This paper is not designed to provide up-to-date news, cure any diseases, provide well balanced opinion, or relieve inflammation of the foot. The Council hereby absolves itself from any responsibility from any actions the reader does or does not take based on this 'news' paper."

What do you say about rumours that inside the telescope, there really is a gigantic cannon aimed at SubCommittee island?

Dutchfire: LOL, well played. I wouldn't be surprised if that was the "telescope"'s real purpose :D

Please, people!

There is absolutely NO masked device concealed within The Council's scientific apparatus. We wish only to see what the world(s) are like without Babes, for they have stood in the way of our progress in scientific matter for too many years. ;)

This way, we can see beyond them! :D

Peter, nice work on the denials in the UN! :thumbsup:

Here are those plans you requested for the row of “observatories” we’re building on Councilor’s Hill.


http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/GeneralW/totala_bertha_large.jpg

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/GeneralW/_totala_ta_large.jpg


Just make sure these don’t slip out somehow!

Dear Citizens of the World…

On behalf of The Council, I am pleased to present
The Seventh Edition
of this world’s first International Newspaper…

The RoundTable


We hope you enjoy!

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/GeneralW/EditionSeven_Draft1.jpg




disclaimer:

Disclaimer:
"The RoundTable is published at the sole discretion of advisor to the council, General_W. All opinions are his alone, and do not necessarily reflect the opinion or positions of The Council government. Heck, even the 'facts' in this paper are viewed through his personal lens and may or may not accurately reflect the real or perceived state of world and/or game affairs. This paper may frequently contain what is known as 'sarcasm' and should be taken as it is intended – in fun. Hate mail may be sent to General_W via PM if you wish. General_W reserves the right to laugh uproariously at any hate mail he receives. This paper is not designed to provide up-to-date news, cure any diseases, provide well balanced opinion, or relieve inflammation of the foot. The Council hereby absolves itself from any responsibility from any actions the reader does or does not take based on this 'news' paper."

Nice one :thumbsup:

Hey paperboy! Where's my new edition?

I bet a falling apple knocked out the paper boy.

er… ahem… :blush:

Dear Citizens of the World…

On behalf of The Council, I am pleased to present
The Eighth Edition
of this world’s first International Newspaper…

The RoundTable


We hope you enjoy!

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/GeneralW/EditionEight_Draft1.jpg



disclaimer:

Disclaimer:
"The RoundTable is published at the sole discretion of advisor to the council, General_W. All opinions are his alone, and do not necessarily reflect the opinion or positions of The Council government. Heck, even the 'facts' in this paper are viewed through his personal lens and may or may not accurately reflect the real or perceived state of world and/or game affairs. This paper may frequently contain what is known as 'sarcasm' and should be taken as it is intended – in fun. Hate mail may be sent to General_W via PM if you wish. General_W reserves the right to laugh uproariously at any hate mail he receives. This paper is not designed to provide up-to-date news, cure any diseases, provide well balanced opinion, or relieve inflammation of the foot. The Council hereby absolves itself from any responsibility from any actions the reader does or does not take based on this 'news' paper."

:lol: Very good on the paper Gen_W and :thumbsup: to The Council on completing another wonder.

Thank you. The tip is under the brick on the front porch.

Nice paper :thumbsup:

Nedsram Erifhctud sounds like a real expert :)

Another great edition! Keep 'm coming!

Might there be another edition out soon? Things are a doin'! :lol:

Hey Marsden! :wavey:

Sorry about the long pause in news... I've been really busy lately.
Maybe I can distract you with a picture of my daughter on her first birthday?

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/GeneralW/IMG_0843.jpg


Isn't she cute?
Now what was your question again? :mischief:

Wow. She is sooo cute.

Wait, I can't say that, people will know I'm a big softie. :(

Honestly, I'm not sure if my daughter, who's 3, would appreciate me posting her face on the internet or I'd answer you back with a pic.

I just know your full of creativity, and I like your work so I'm looking forward to more. :goodjob:

Great picture General! :salute: And :bday: to the little one!

Well… what can I say? I has just enough time to throw together a random video about a topic on my mind lately… :mischief: …


The RoundTable:
Editor's Special Video Edition
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/GeneralW/Council_Avatar_Med.jpg

Ladies and Gentlemen of the World,
NOT on behalf of The Council, I now present, a glimpse into the twisted mind of General_W

Hope you enjoy!


Click HERE to watch! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xMWyBQkkZA)
(link to youtube)






.

:lol: hilarious! :thumbsup:

:rotfl: :lol: :lol: :rotfl: *sniff* :goodjob:

I understand, even though its out team holding up the save at the moment. Not all of us can play the save at a given time.

Another Monty Python fan :clap:

Also checked out the family at Christmas & Evangeline's 1st 3 months post - both very nice

Here is a video posted by my wife that will feature my son & I in the second half, we appear about 2:07 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fy82T6ECHY)

denyd - tried your link, but there is an extra "http." in the link.

Thanks, I fixed the link

Glad people are getting a kick out of it :D

Not all of us can play the save at a given time.
Yeah... the video was actually meant to make more fun of the "bump" people than of the slow players.
I can assure you - no offense was intended! I’m just trying to keep things fun :D

@ DenyD – very cool! :thumbsup: Thanks for sharing! Looks like it was a fun trip (and your son is very cute :) … er, Handsome? )

:lol:

That's great, G_W.

I think it's important for the civ4 people to realize that General_W even bumps his teammate in the civ3 cagematch :run:

We don't discriminate in our bumping ;)

Dear Citizens of the World…

On behalf of The Council, I am pleased to present
The Ninth Edition
of this world’s first International Newspaper…

The RoundTable


We hope you enjoy!

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/GeneralW/EditionNine_Draft1.jpg




disclaimer:

Disclaimer:
"The RoundTable is published at the sole discretion of advisor to the council, General_W. All opinions are his alone, and do not necessarily reflect the opinion or positions of The Council government. Heck, even the 'facts' in this paper are viewed through his personal lens and may or may not accurately reflect the real or perceived state of world and/or game affairs. This paper may frequently contain what is known as 'sarcasm' and should be taken as it is intended – in fun. Hate mail may be sent to General_W via PM if you wish. General_W reserves the right to laugh uproariously at any hate mail he receives. This paper is not designed to provide up-to-date news, cure any diseases, provide well balanced opinion, or relieve inflammation of the foot. The Council hereby absolves itself from any responsibility from any actions the reader does or does not take based on this 'news' paper."

"Continued on page A-51"

OMG IT'S A CONSPIRACY!

Nice work, General.

:lol: The pic of the day is hilarious.

Great work :thumbsup:

Thanks Gentlemen :D Glad you enjoyed it.

Dear Citizens of the World…

On behalf of The Council, I am pleased to present
The Tenth Edition
of this world’s first International Newspaper…

The RoundTable


We hope you enjoy!

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/GeneralW/EditionTen_Draft1.jpg




disclaimer:

Disclaimer:
"The RoundTable is published at the sole discretion of advisor to the council, General_W. All opinions are his alone, and do not necessarily reflect the opinion or positions of The Council government. Heck, even the 'facts' in this paper are viewed through his personal lens and may or may not accurately reflect the real or perceived state of world and/or game affairs. This paper may frequently contain what is known as 'sarcasm' and should be taken as it is intended – in fun. Hate mail may be sent to General_W via PM if you wish. General_W reserves the right to laugh uproariously at any hate mail he receives. This paper is not designed to provide up-to-date news, cure any diseases, provide well balanced opinion, or relieve inflammation of the foot. The Council hereby absolves itself from any responsibility from any actions the reader does or does not take based on this 'news' paper."

Sorry this is two weeks late, but great paper! I look forward to the next one.

Dear Citizens of the World
Remaing International Reader: Marsden

On behalf of The Council, I am pleased to present
The Eleventh Edition
of this world’s first International Newspaper…

The RoundTable


We hope you enjoy!

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/GeneralW/EditionEleven_Draft2.jpg




disclaimer:

Disclaimer:
"The RoundTable is published internationally (apparently) purley for the enjoyment of Marsden – and is printed at the sole discretion of advisor to the council, General_W. All opinions are his alone, and do not necessarily reflect the opinion or positions of The Council government. Heck, even the 'facts' in this paper are viewed through his personal lens and may or may not accurately reflect the real or perceived state of world and/or game affairs. This paper may frequently contain what is known as 'sarcasm' and should be taken as it is intended – in fun. Hate mail may be sent to General_W via PM if you wish. General_W reserves the right to laugh uproariously at any hate mail he receives. This paper is not designed to provide up-to-date news, cure any diseases, provide well balanced opinion, or relieve inflammation of the foot. The Council hereby absolves itself from any responsibility from any actions the reader does or does not take based on this 'news' paper."

That Rellet Detamotua fella is visionary.

And now the big question: those 45 years old out of shape men, they are topologically equivalent to donuts of how many holes? And could that possibly make a viable planet geography? Could these men explode into super-huge planets, if they keep away from the gym for long, long enough? Are 'gas giants' some large ones among those 45 year olds with farting disorders?

I believe there is much to be unveiled in this field of research.

Very well done, General. Marsden left his copy in the john, so I was able to scan it. Although I didn't really want to pick it up, I could tell you did some quality work. Bravo.

Cyc, you went in there after me? You're braver than I thought.


Dear letters to the editor,
Thank you. I enjoy the only newspaper the world has to offer. I plan on contuining my subscription, but I am still waiting for the toaster I was promised upon subscribing. Please have it delivered to my new beach resort c/o Mr Rourke.

Please have it delivered to my new beach resort c/o Mr Rourke.


Which one? :p

Cyc, you went in there after me? You're braver than I thought.
:lol: It wasn't a matter of being brave, Marsden. I had had my fill of fruits and vegetables and when ya gotta go....
;)

Paper boy?!? There seems to be news happening.

We have not seen anything yet... :confused:

Paul - Check out the newest thread in this forum. You'll see more when you open the turn.

EDIT: You've seen the other thread, since you posted there. Anyway, you setill se what happened when you open the turn.

I know. And suspense is killing me. :)

But I have the strange feeling that GONG's and BABE's turns will take some time this turn... :mischief:

The council invites you into its war room – for a glimpse of behind the scenes conversation.
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/GeneralW/CouncilWarRoom.jpg

We join the conversation as Council military strategists are trying frantically to explain themselves to an outraged Civilian leadership…


http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/GeneralW/Paul42a.jpg Chairman Paul the 42nd: "I demand answers! I wake up this morning to suddenly find out we're at war with FREE and there are robotic, fully automated machines in control of our entire airforce!?! How on Meleet's Blue Earth could this have happened?!?"

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/GeneralW/General_W.jpg General_W: "Well, Mr. Chairman, what we've done is to take our new H-class fully automated and computerized bombers and program them with combat plan "Doomsday thorium G," - when they encounter any foreign transports – they will produce, in effect, a doomsday shield. A lethal cloud of Aerial bombardment which will encircle the Council waterways within a 6 tile range! This war with FREE was a bit of glitch in the system. A really minor bug that I assure you we've since corrected."

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/GeneralW/Paul42a.jpg Chairman Paul the 42nd: "I'm afraid I don't understand something. Are you telling me that it was OUR military that started this war with FREE?!? And now you're talking about ordering the destruction of *any* foreign transports that get within range of our territory?"

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/GeneralW/General_W.jpg General_W: "No sir. It is not a thing a sane man would order. The doomsday bombers are designed to launch themselves into action automatically if any foreign transports come in-range. They'll trigger automatically."

*stunned silence*

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/GeneralW/Niklas.jpg Niklas: "But surely we can disarm it somehow?"

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/GeneralW/General_W.jpg General_W: "No. It is designed to go into attack mode if any attempt is ever made to un-trigger it."

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/GeneralW/PeterGrimes_real.jpg Peter Grimes: "But this is absolute madness! Why would we *build* such a thing?"

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/GeneralW/Donsig.jpg Air Captain Donsig: "There were those of us who fought against it, but in the end we could not keep up with the expense involved in the island race, the space race, and the culture race. At the same time our people grumbled for more temples and Coliseums. Our doomsday scheme cost us just a small fraction of what we had been spending on defense in a single year. "

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/GeneralW/Paul42a.jpg Chairman Paul the 42nd: "This is preposterous. I've never approved of anything like this."

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/GeneralW/General_W.jpg General_W: "Not according to The Domestic RoundTable… they've already reported that this plan will be going into effect unless the Civilian Leadership directly contacted the military to stop it. The paper made it quite clear that if no response was received within one week – that this silence would be assumed as an approval of the project."

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/GeneralW/Paul42a.jpg Chairman Paul the 42nd: "You know I don't read that rag of a newspaper! When was this published?"

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/GeneralW/Aigburth.jpg Admiral Aigburth: "Two weeks ago. The system is now fully operational. We assumed that your silence was not only an approval – but was appreciated for the sake of 'plausible deniability'… you know."

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/GeneralW/AutomatedTeller.jpg Automated Teller: "Then you mean, we've already built such a thing?! We have the technology for that?"

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/GeneralW/General_W.jpg General_W: "The technology required is easily within the means of our brilliant scientists. It required only the will to implement it."

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/GeneralW/Paul42a.jpg Chairman Paul the 42nd: "But… how is it possible for this thing to be triggered automatically and at the same time impossible to untrigger?"

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/GeneralW/General_W.jpg General_W: "Mr. Chairman, it is not only possible, it is essential. That is the whole idea of this plan, you know. Deterrence is the art of producing in the mind of the enemy... the FEAR to attack. And so, because of the automated and irrevocable decision-making process which rules out human meddling, the Doomsday Defense Network is terrifying and simple to understand... and completely credible and convincing."


Attention Foreign Powers:
You've been warned! The Doomsday Defense Network is now in place to guard all Council waterways.

Not shamelessly ripped off from here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BldWP-V2ve8


-----

Excellent!

:salute:

Oh no! With all of that production diverted to war materiel, I don't think I'm going to get my toaster. :eek:

Did your military men have the foresight to equip Council's transports with self-destruct devices that activate if they sail within a 6 tile range of non-Council land :mischief:? For Council's own protection, of course ;).

No, but we can sell you our software at a bargain price. :groucho:

Wonderful work as usual General_W.:goodjob:

Thought it was time I subscribed to your paper as I've stolen my copies long enough.

It's been a long while since the paper has come. I do hope nothing has happened. :mischief:

why do you ask? is something going on in the world of meleet?

I'm so confused and stuck in the industrial age...:crazyeye:

I'm so confused and stuck in the industrial age...

Just get over it and beat Beam.:lol: OH ... that's a different game.

why do you ask? is something going on in the world of meleet?

Well, that's exactly whyI ask. Without my paper, I lack the news that I need to get through my day informed. If something was going on, which there may or may not be, then how would I, a poor, newsless individual, know of it?

BTW, there's been a new sentiment that The Meleet doesn't actually exist and the world was just randomly generated. I'm not sure if I believe it myself but some do. I think it started with that Darwin guy that lives in Free.

:) Glad to see I've been missed!

Sadly, I have to report that the offices and printing presses of The Roundtable have been seized voluntarily turned over to the Ministry of Wartime Budgeting. I think they're using my presses to print money to fund all the new war spending :shifty:

- I've tried to warn them about the dangers of abandoning the gold standard for this new fiat currency and predicted that it'll lead to eventual financial turmoil… but apparently talking about the intrinsic value of specie currency and the importance of rule-based regimes to stabilize business expectations – is really not very popular when there's a war on. :mischief:

Anyway – I, and all my former RoundTable staff, have been "recruited" to work in the new Ministry of Wartime Information.


Maybe you news-hungry folks would like a peek at the work we've been busy with recently?

Here you go…


The Ministry of Wartime Information
[Formerly: The RoundTable:]

Proudly Presents this mandatory viewing for all Council Citizens…


http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/GeneralW/CouncilAtWarVideo.jpg
Click HERE to watch! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7IIEz_ml1o)
(link to youtube)





Hope you enjoy!





.

That's a great piece of work General :thumbsup:

I think you are just misinterpreting some things :mischief:, but still it's a good job

<reposted for ease of reference>


:) Glad to see I've been missed!

Sadly, I have to report that the offices and printing presses of The Roundtable have been seized voluntarily turned over to the Ministry of Wartime Budgeting. I think they're using my presses to print money to fund all the new war spending :shifty:

- I've tried to warn them about the dangers of abandoning the gold standard for this new fiat currency and predicted that it'll lead to eventual financial turmoil… but apparently talking about the intrinsic value of specie currency and the importance of rule-based regimes to stabilize business expectations – is really not very popular when there's a war on. :mischief:

Anyway – I, and all my former RoundTable staff, have been "recruited" to work in the new Ministry of Wartime Information.


Maybe you news-hungry folks would like a peek at the work we've been busy with recently?

Here you go…


The Ministry of Wartime Information
[Formerly: The RoundTable:]

Proudly Presents this mandatory viewing for all Council Citizens…


http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/GeneralW/CouncilAtWarVideo.jpg
Click HERE to watch! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7IIEz_ml1o)
(link to youtube)





Hope you enjoy!





.

I wish I could play with pictures like that, but all I got for Christmas was a lousy word processor. :cry:

:lol: I'll take that as a compliment.

But if you really want to play with pretty pictures, CommandoBob - I'll give you my secret... I do all my graphics work with paint.net (http://www.getpaint.net/)

It's a totally simple program, I taught myself to use it without any art skills to speak of. If I could learn it, I'm totally sure you could also. I mean, I'm an MBA... which means you have to use very small words when explaining things to me. ;)

:thumbsup: Nothing like propaganda...

Hopefully, this will be one of the last editions of your silly propaganda :devil:

Nice work :thumbsup:

Did I ever mention I can't see YouTube? :cry:

Really? Wow - I'm sorry Marsden.
Time for a trip to the library... or do they not have those in Thulcandra? :mischief:

Really? Wow - I'm sorry Marsden.
Time for a trip to the library... or do they not have those in Thulcandra? :mischief:

Wow, what a way to treat your only paying subscriber!

Did I ever mention I can't see YouTube? :cry:

Can download it here :cool: