Ok People, here I am again pushing for the Forbidden Palace to be built in PDX. Just look at this beautiful city. Primed for growth and production. The city has a temple, library, and a cathedral. It has irrigated land and mountains to be mined. The FP will promote tremendous growth in the area. It can be built right here in 11 turns with no further upgrades or monies spent. Plus with the FP located here, PDX will recapture the THIRD of the many shields it produces that it loses to corruption. And all those shields are produced without the mountains being mined yet. Seriously, do you see a better city for the immediate building of the Forbidden Palace? Poll time is coming up fast people. If you like PDX as the FP site, make a reply right here.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads/PDX680ad.jpg

This would only be a benefit of 25% in this city. Located a city rank further from the capital it would have nearly the same effect on PDX while extending our functional reach.

How long would that take Shaitain?

Cyc: does building the FP in PDX mean we will move the palace from Fox Nest?

Yeh we should place the forbidden palace in PDX it can fast build up it. And it would take much time to build it somewere else. And if we build it in PDX it will become a production powerhouse.

Originally posted by donsig
How long would that take Shaitain?
Can't look at the moment as i'm at work. A rough estimate of the next rank corruption level would be 35-45% (as PDX is a bit under 25%). A very rough estimate for FP construction would be half again to double the construction time in PDX.

The short term benefits of building the FP in PDX are definately many, but in the long term, we will be sacrificing production in our cities to the south and east. We should decide where to build the FP, and if it is other than PDX, we should begin preparing the city to build it. It will need a courthouse, a marketplace and a pop of 6. Once we get a WLTK day and a courthouse, it should have good production, and can then build the FP.

Originally posted by eyrei
The short term benefits of building the FP in PDX are definately many, but in the long term, we will be sacrificing production in our cities to the south and east. We should decide where to build the FP, and if it is other than PDX, we should begin preparing the city to build it. It will need a courthouse, a marketplace and a pop of 6. Once we get a WLTK day and a courthouse, it should have good production, and can then build the FP.
I still say we should build the FP in PDX and move the palace from Fox Nest (which has no cities to the south west of it, and so isn't really central enough to be a good palace site IMO) to somwhere in the south eastern area of the empire. It would perhaps be at greater risk of being in the midst of enemy attack should one occur, but better the "indestructible" palace than the FP which as far as I know would be lost forever if captured.

I think you can rebuild the forbidden palace if you lose it. (Yes, I lost one once.:( )

Build times (taking into account current shields accumulated):

PDX - 15 turns (not sure. city is in WLTP, but has 2 entertainers, if the entertainers work, 12 turns, but lose WLTP)
Philly - 47 turns
NY - 40 turns
Civanatoria - 44

All of these numbers don't take into account growth potential of the cities.

While I agree with Shaitan, the reach could be more optimal if it was placed elsewhere than PDX, we will save 20-30 turns by placing it in PDX. Question of short run vs. long run here.

Another alternative is raising the luxury tax to 10% (to 19gpt currently). That would shorten build times (because of entertainers going back to work):
PDX - 12.
Philly - 38.
NY - 32.
Civanatoria - 44 (no change)

There are some workers around Philly now. In any case, I propose we send some workers to the city that builds it so as to maximize the build time.

I disagree with Eyrei's development proposal though. It would take Philly (for example) perhaps 30-35 turns to complete a courthouse & marketplace, by which time the paint on the FP would be almost dry. All buildings in the FP city will be very quick to build afterwards. Furthermore, a courthouse will not be necessary in the FP's city once the FP is built.

Originally posted by chiefpaco

I disagree with Eyrei's development proposal though. It would take Philly (for example) perhaps 30-35 turns to complete a courthouse & marketplace, by which time the paint on the FP would be almost dry. All buildings in the FP city will be very quick to build afterwards. Furthermore, a courthouse will not be necessary in the FP's city once the FP is built.

Keep in mind that those requisite buildings could be rushed in about 4 turns. The luxury rate has already been adjusted to 10%.

I would think the benefits would be both short term and long term as with the surge in prodution, growth in the area would maximize and allow the subsidizing of the poorer areas. Normandy and Province #2 could send the current military units quickly to the outer reaches and with the population growth (meaning more culture points) we would have more money to float the needed buildings in those outer reaches.

Shaitan - PDX was just at 5 of 15 shields lost to corruption, I believe. I re- arranged the production to show max shields. And if the next two shields are lost to corruption in this arrangement, corruption will be 30%.

And I agree with Eklektikos, also. No matter how much political BS our politicians spout now, they could re-located the Palace in a heart beat. (Not to mention the idea looks appealing at this point)

And Eyrei, why would you want to spend all our money on rushing those buildings, when PDX already has it covered. The cathedral will cover the happiness issues. The marketplace could be built in a couple of turns after the FP...

Originally posted by Cyc
And Eyrei, why would you want to spend all our money on rushing those buildings, when PDX already has it covered. The cathedral will cover the happiness issues. The marketplace could be built in a couple of turns after the FP...

Because I do not want the FP in PDX, as it will leave the area formally known as Egypt as an unproductive region. I think it needs to be further SE.

Eyrei, I think your current proposal is for Philly, the next town over. Please.

Originally posted by Cyc
Eyrei, I think your current proposal is for Philly, the next town over. Please.

Given our recent annexation of Egypt, Civanator may actually be the better location. My point is basically that we need to choose a city based on it's location, and then figure out a way to build the FP there, rather than building the FP in a city because it will be easier to build. Long term vs. short term, and I honestly do not know which will benefit us more. The boost that a quicky forbidden palace in PDX would give us may be worth more because of it's timing. We will probably pull away from the rest of the pack in the industrial age anyway. However, if another massive world power emerges around that time, we may need more of our cities to be minimally corrupt.

Originally posted by Cyc
Shaitan - PDX was just at 5 of 15 shields lost to corruption, I believe. I re- arranged the production to show max shields. And if the next two shields are lost to corruption in this arrangement, corruption will be 30%.
Thanks for pointing out the production discrepancy.
And I agree with Eklektikos, also. No matter how much political BS our politicians spout now, they could re-located the Palace in a heart beat. (Not to mention the idea looks appealing at this point)

I hate to say never because it's such a final term but I'm going to anyway.

I will never support moving the capital under and circumstances whatsoever. Never.

I've done it before in my own games and will likely do it again in my own games. This is different. This is more than a game, it's a roll playing experience. I believe that Fox Nest is the figurative heart and soul of Phoenatica and I will always work to preserve that. And that's no BS.

Originally posted by Shaitan

Thanks for pointing out the production discrepancy.

I hate to say never because it's such a final term but I'm going to anyway.

I will never support moving the capital under and circumstances whatsoever. Never.

I've done it before in my own games and will likely do it again in my own games. This is different. This is more than a game, it's a roll playing experience. I believe that Fox Nest is the figurative heart and soul of Phoenatica and I will always work to preserve that. And that's no BS.

As I have said before, the only way I would support moving the palace would be if we set out to conquer the world militarily. Basically, you don't have to worry about me voting to move it unless you all vote to attempt to conquer the world.

Originally posted by Shaitan

Thanks for pointing out the production discrepancy.

I hate to say never because it's such a final term but I'm going to anyway.

I will never support moving the capital under and circumstances whatsoever. Never.

I've done it before in my own games and will likely do it again in my own games. This is different. This is more than a game, it's a roll playing experience. I believe that Fox Nest is the figurative heart and soul of Phoenatica and I will always work to preserve that. And that's no BS.

Heart and soul of the empire? maybe.

Good site for the palace? no.

Whatever the sentimental value of Fox Nest as the seat of government, its geographical position is too peripheral to make it a great site for the palace. From a role playing point of view, the moving of political power to a more advantageous physical position is hardly unprecedented in real-life history.

Originally posted by eyrei


Keep in mind that those requisite buildings could be rushed in about 4 turns. The luxury rate has already been adjusted to 10%.

I hadn't considered that. Would this be a case for a national interest so that we could override a governors' build queue?

I should also add a note to my above build times. Civanatoria has about half the growth potential as Philly & NY, which can likely grow up to 12.

It does my heart good to hear that there are those who would not move our capitol. As mayor of Fox Nest I thank all those who have taken this stand.:goodjob:

This may come as a shock to some but I do agree with eyrei that we should decide where to build the FP then decide how we will get it built there. I also agree with eyrei that the FP should be built to enhance the production of our recently acquired Egyptian cities.:egypt:

Would this be a case for a national interest so that we could override a governors' build queue?

I think we should ultimately decide the location of the FP via a citizen poll. I don't think over riding a governor's build queue will be neccessary. What governor would not want the Forbidden Palace in his or her province? I think the governor of the chosen city will gladly sign off on the project especially as federal funds may be pumped into the city before hand.

Originally posted by eyrei


Given our recent annexation of Egypt, Civanator may actually be the better location. My point is basically that we need to choose a city based on it's location, and then figure out a way to build the FP there, rather than building the FP in a city because it will be easier to build. Long term vs. short term, and I honestly do not know which will benefit us more. The boost that a quicky forbidden palace in PDX would give us may be worth more because of it's timing. We will probably pull away from the rest of the pack in the industrial age anyway. However, if another massive world power emerges around that time, we may need more of our cities to be minimally corrupt.

Civanator, New York, Philly. Anywhere in Ameri would be benificial due to it's centrality to our current lands and future ones. (ie. Egypt, Rome, China, Azteca)

We should do it in the region that would have the most potential for the future i. e., somewhere distant from the capital in the midst of other places.

I will never support moving the capital under and circumstances whatsoever. Never.

As Culture Minister, and a proud citizen of Fox Nest, I also would never support moving the capital. Fox Nest is home to our cultural heritage, and even though it is toward the western edge of our empire, it is still closest to our largest and most productive cities.

As for the FP, I agree that we need to decide where to build it first, then how. I would agree to rushing the improvements that we need to make the city productive, I have used that method before, and it can be effective. So I say we decide on the best location due to geography, then build up the city to what we want it to be.

Perhaps some nominations are in order so a poll can be initiated?

I nominate Thebes for the site of our forbidden palace. It is on a river with many flood plains and can grow to size 12 quickly. It also has a hill and two plains that can be mined as well as three forest tiles for shields once it reaches size 12. Right now it makes only one 'good' shield per turn. Would rushing some improvements and getting Thebes up top size 12 make it productive enough to build the FP?

With such reassuring words from 3 prominent Leaders about the finality of our Great Palace location, I feel I can confidently second Donsig's nomination of Thebes as a proposed Forbidden Palace site. It is good to see our Leaders put words such as these down on paper. It renews ones hopes for our nations stability and integrity.

The area that Donsig has chosen is choice. It will allow us to extend our borders freely and perhaps cities from other nations will join us in our growth. Although I second Donsig's proposal, I might also suggest Elephantine if Thebes is not well accepted.

Originally posted by Cyc
With such reassuring words from 3 prominent Leaders about the finality of our Great Palace location, I feel I can confidently second Donsig's nomination of Thebes as a proposed Forbidden Palace site. It is good to see our Leaders put words such as these down on paper. It renews ones hopes for our nations stability and integrity.

The area that Donsig has chosen is choice. It will allow us to extend our borders freely and perhaps cities from other nations will join us in our growth. Although I second Donsig's proposal, I might also suggest Elephantine if Thebes is not well accepted.
While my opinion is still that the FP should go in PDX and the Great Palace somewhere in Asphinxia it seems that the majority of our citizens, including the bulk of the council, are against this. In view of this I lend my support to the placement of the FP in Thebes or one of the other nearby Asphinxian cities. I'm sure the passing chinese riders will find it an impressive sight, and hopefully take back tales of its glory to their cities on our borders :D

I have several concerns about building the FP in Thebes.

1. It is not central, and would leave what was formally America, a rich land, very corrupt and wasteful.

2. Even with a courthouse and WLTK day, Thebes would probably only produce 2 or 3 shields, making the construction process very,very long.

3. It is vulnerable to attack, particularly once cavalry come into play.

I would like to see the FP built in Philadelphia, as it would make the rich lands of our Northeastern territory very productive, and would help the lands in the East. Philadelphia also has excellent growth potential, is easily defended, and, with a courthouse and WLTK day, could build the FP in a reasonable amount of time.

Originally posted by eyrei
I have several concerns about building the FP in Thebes.

1. It is not central, and would leave what was formally America, a rich land, very corrupt and wasteful.

2. Even with a courthouse and WLTK day, Thebes would probably only produce 2 or 3 shields, making the construction process very,very long.

3. It is vulnerable to attack, particularly once cavalry come into play.

I would like to see the FP built in Philadelphia, as it would make the rich lands of our Northeastern territory very productive, and would help the lands in the East. Philadelphia also has excellent growth potential, is easily defended, and, with a courthouse and WLTK day, could build the FP in a reasonable amount of time.
1 & 3 were my reasons for wanting the FP in PDX and the Great Palace in Thebes or another asphinxian city... Fox Nest is hardly central either. Also, in my view, the fact that a courthouse would be this effective in philadelphia means it's too close to the Capital to be a good FP site - given that you've no intention of having the palace moved. If building the FP in Thebes would leave Ameri corrupt and wasteful, then building it in Philadelphia would do the same for Asphinxia - making it much easier for someone to take that province from us. Corruption in Asphinxia is horrific, either the FP or Great Palace is needed nearby to make it reasonably productive.

Originally posted by Eklektikos

1 & 3 were my reasons for wanting the FP in PDX and the Great Palace in Thebes or another asphinxian city... Fox Nest is hardly central either. Also, in my view, the fact that a courthouse would be this effective in philadelphia means it's too close to the Capital to be a good FP site - given that you've no intention of having the palace moved. If building the FP in Thebes would leave Ameri corrupt and wasteful, then building it in Philadelphia would do the same for Asphinxia - making it much easier for someone to take that province from us. Corruption in Asphinxia is horrific, either the FP or Great Palace is needed nearby to make it reasonably productive.

Philadelphia is about 4 tiles SE of PDX, so would have more effect on Asphinxia than one in PDX. It would also significantly reduce corruption in Ameri. Without a leader, it will take a very long time to build the FP in Asphinxia, and since we are actually not at war, a leader is highly unlikely arise anytime soon.

Originally posted by donsig
I think you can rebuild the forbidden palace if you lose it. (Yes, I lost one once.:( )

I tried that too in a test game (no computer players), and I could still build it after disbanding that city.

Eyrei, first you say you want it in Philly, then you change to Civanatoria. Now you're back to Philly.

First you say you want less corruption in the South and SE, now you say you want less corruption in the North.

What are you, a politician? Do you owe Plexus a favor? We try to help accomadate your concerns for the nation, but then you flip back on the issues.

Putting the FP in PDX without moving the GP would put the "power base" of the two Palaces just West of Khatovar. Putting the FP in Thebes would put it in Lake Phoenatica, Elephantine would place the power base in Macao. Philly would put the same power base right in Khatovar.

So really, what's your point? I tried to go with the flow of developing the South and SE, like you asked for, and you flip.

Originally posted by Cyc
Eyrei, first you say you want it in Philly, then you change to Civanatoria. Now you're back to Philly.

First you say you want less corruption in the South and SE, now you say you want less corruption in the North.

What are you, a politician? Do you owe Plexus a favor? We try to help accomadate your concerns for the nation, but then you flip back on the issues.

Putting the FP in PDX without moving the GP would put the "power base" of the two Palaces just West of Khatovar. Putting the FP in Thebes would put it in Lake Phoenatica, Elephantine would place the power base in Macao. Philly would put the same power base right in Khatovar.

So really, what's your point? I tried to go with the flow of developing the South and SE, like you asked for, and you flip.

Am I not allowed to change my mind? I would prefer Civanatoria for pure location, but it's potential to grow and become productive is stifled by its location. Plus, much of what I have posted here is simply my opinion on how certain sites would effect us. Philadelphia is my official opinion.

Fine. If its all political rhetoric, then you'll probably change your mind on the Great Palace location. I'll have to go back with the PDX proposition if we can count on what is posted.