View Full Version : Get it on...Bang a Gong Diplo thread


Whomp
May 29, 2007, 10:02 AM
OK another meetup! A lot of old KISS guys on this team so we know they're idiots of the right kind. :crazyeye:

What do you think of this note?
If someone can send this via email that would be great.


Hello Gong of the Pyramid Gongs,

Fancy meeting you guys. We've decided to take our sea expedition to view this wonderful, wonderous, wonder you've built. Rumors around Babe the pyramid is made of beer. Our ladies like beer so maybe we should schedule a time for some discussion.

Looking forward to our future together.

xxoo
Babe envoy Charlize Theron

Here's a picture of me so you recognize me.
http://starophileimages.free.fr/wallpapers/charlize_theron_004.jpg

gmaharriet
May 29, 2007, 02:51 PM
OK another meetup! A lot of old KISS guys on this team so we know they're idiots of the right kind. :crazyeye:

Yeah, we've got a lot of old friends on that team. I'll find it a lot harder to be enthusiastic about wiping GONG out than with SABER.

I wonder if they can see me waving my hankie at them from the side of our boat. :mischief:

Kickbooti
May 29, 2007, 09:47 PM
Yeah, we've got a lot of old friends on that team. I'll find it a lot harder to be enthusiastic about wiping GONG out than with SABER.



The sooner we wipe out Gong, the sooner they can join us. We have to burn this village in order to save it...

Wotan
May 29, 2007, 11:10 PM
Go a PM from Killercane. He wants to talk trades. I guess we are already on top of this?

Tubby Rower
May 30, 2007, 04:20 AM
I sent the message via gmail yesterday after Whomp posted this thread. I couldn't access CFC anytime after that due to some network issues on my end :(

Robi D
May 30, 2007, 07:30 AM
Go a PM from Killercane. He wants to talk trades. I guess we are already on top of this?

Did he give any specific techs they want to trade?

Wotan
May 30, 2007, 07:44 AM
No, just said "wanna trade"? Sort of...

Whomp
May 30, 2007, 07:49 AM
I'll find 'Cane on IM tonight. He's usually on but working all day too.

We're up contact with Saber, Wheel, IW, philo, CoL, MM and republic. They're up poly and monarchy. We may be able to structure a deal for poly and turn around and pick up a tech from Saber or Council or both.:mischief:

I think we should meet Council to see what they have before we consumate any deals. It's a nice position having a big tech lead here. We could pull off some 2 or 3 fers here.

Tubby Rower
May 30, 2007, 08:06 AM
but the question is .... Do we want to??

Whomp
May 30, 2007, 08:11 AM
I think if we can "one off" techs we receive it should be considered.
IE with poly which has no real benefit. If we can turn around and trade poly for other techs to Council and Saber to accelerate our tech pace we're all good. Another thing to consider is Gong may be interested in Republic since they're religious.

Wotan
May 30, 2007, 09:06 AM
We really should consider trying to slow down the tech pace. The longer we can benefit from our UU the better. problem could be to make the others slow the tech pace too, and we do not want to fall behind either. So if we trade we trade techs we do not have monopoly on. And try to keep them separated for as long as possible, so no contacts.

ThERat
May 30, 2007, 09:29 AM
agreed with Wotan as stated elsewhere already...need to make sure tech pace is slow

Whomp
May 30, 2007, 09:49 AM
Agreed on the pace but let's not be overly cautious to believe these guys won't trade to pick up the pace.

The only techs I think we should trade are ones we pick up (or are not at monopoly) that can be traded around.

btw I received a pm from Daghdha.
We have contact :crazyeye:
I'll have to get the MSN up and running again, haha.
Still haven't the grapic power to run C4 but keeping it in my safe for future use.
Congrats on becoming Official Banner :goodjob:
Hi Daghie Boy!

Pretty cool stuff that we met. Did you like the picture I sent? Killercane sent Wotan a pm and suggested we talk. I'll try to get him on IM tonight when I get home.

B
Hi Panda Ditto
I'll be rehearsing late with the band so I might be straight to bed, but we'll hook up in the near future I'm sure.

CU soon

ps Very cool pic indeed ds

gmaharriet
May 30, 2007, 11:19 AM
Golly, I dunno why you didn't send a picture of me. After all, I'm the only one on the team who qualifies (in the VERY loosest sense of the word) as a "babe"...give or take a few decades. :rotfl:

Whomp
May 30, 2007, 09:07 PM
I had a nice conversation with Killercane tonight.

They're looking for a long term deal and some tech deals that I'm so not sure about. Since we don't anticipate war with these guys soon I offered 20 turns of peace. Cane think we'll meet someone going west but that doesn't seem to be what Tubby's crystal ball says. They haven't met anyone and he forgot to ask who we knew.
Whomp says:
Hey Case
casey j says:
whats up buddy
Whomp says:
one sec
Whomp says:
What's happening?
casey j says:
fixing a bite to eat, one sec
Whomp says:
ok
Whomp says:
brb too
casey j says:
back
casey j says:
whats going on
casey j says:
k
Whomp says:
back
Whomp says:
did you like the picture we sent you guys?

Love being lobbed around...

casey j says:
of course, always welcome
casey j says:
the BABES have an endless supply of material i surmise
Whomp says:
that's for sure
Whomp says:
good name for us whackos
casey j says:
well the GONGers were sure happy to see you
casey j says:
me- man i hope we meet BABE soon
Whomp says:
us with you too
casey j says:
JB- lets find BABES
Whomp says:
hehe
Whomp says:
that's hilarious
casey j says:
AK- i want the BABES
casey j says:
and then bam you appear
Whomp says:
is AK playing?
casey j says:
like some kinda spooky magic
Whomp says:
that's so funny
casey j says:
er bugsy i mean
Whomp says:
ok AK self banned himself
casey j says:
heh
Whomp says:
he doesn't want to go off on Dinsog
Whomp says:
didn't his team pull another wonder blunder?
casey j says:
yeah makes sense!
casey j says:
is he on the council?
Whomp says:
yep
casey j says:
i dont knwo SOZ isnt too bad, the thing is they better get Colossus soon!
Whomp says:
SoZ on this map makes me wonder
Whomp says:
they better manage their unit counts
casey j says:
yes ours would be bad in Republic, we were going to offer you monarchy for Rep, and trying to calculate when we should change
casey j says:
if you wanted to do a deal along those lines
Whomp says:
I'll check
Whomp says:
You guys could use republic i'd think
Whomp says:
and the anarchy was likely pretty minimal
casey j says:
well its an improvement of like 50 gpt, but more than half of that would be eaten up by unit cost
casey j says:
so maybe after the Golden Age
Whomp says:
are you fighting already?

casey j says:
what all techs do you guys have?

Ah that's why...
casey j says:
no Pyramids=instant golden age for Celts
Whomp says:
ahah
Whomp says:
let's see
casey j says:
we have up to monarchy, philo, lit, and are getting IW this turn I think, no math, CoL or MM.
Whomp says:
we have philo, lit, CoL, MM
Whomp says:
just got myst
casey j says:
wait i dont think we have philo
Whomp says:
missing poly
casey j says:
you have math?
Whomp says:
Nope
casey j says:
do you have any huts left to pop?
Whomp says:
one this turn
Whomp says:
hold on we may have maths...
Whomp says:
eek
Whomp says:
maths would come before poly right?
Whomp says:
with a hut
casey j says:
yeah its cheaper
Whomp says:
that's what I thought
casey j says:
we have 2 huts left
Whomp says:
settle popping is fun
Whomp says:

casey j says:
my idea was we could trade across, and pop the huts and share the wealth in tech. if we dont pop a tech to make it more even, we could give you gold
casey j says:
only if we had math though
Whomp says:
ok i'll have to find out
casey j says:
you have republic?
Whomp says:
we do
Whomp says:
we have IW
casey j says:
ah we are 2 turns from IW
casey j says:
did you get the philo free tech?
Whomp says:
we did
casey j says:
nice, you took CoL?
Whomp says:
we took MM
casey j says:
ah you probably have some more contacts then, or will soon with the Lighthosue
Whomp says:
I think so. Have you met anyone?
Whomp says:
I'll show if you show.

Map info
casey j says:
nope, we sent curraghs out in 4 directions, hopefully 2 will make it
Whomp says:
Well our galley is in your way this turn
casey j says:
there looks to be a similar safe spot west of our respective positions, we can send you directions if you like
Whomp says:
it looks like sea from the pic
casey j says:
where is your galley in respect to the 2 coast tiles?
Whomp says:
you have a curragh on coastal and there's a coastal 1SE that we landed on
casey j says:
ah ok
Whomp says:
and it's surrounded by sea tiles
casey j says:
yep theres a similar spot west that i think you can just make
casey j says:
which will probably lead to contact with someone else
Whomp says:
ok
Whomp says:
thanks
Whomp says:
you have the coastal we're on
Whomp says:
sea, ocean sea
casey j says:
ok like ours, we are north
Whomp says:
then coastal
Whomp says:
interesting map
casey j says:
yep rik did a good job with the surprises
Whomp says:
for sure

Long term plans?
casey j says:
so what do you guys want as far as long term?
Whomp says:
I think we're looking for a long term partner
casey j says:
same here
Whomp says:
We're not looking towards helping scientifics
Whomp says:
we learned that lesson last game
Whomp says:
keep their pace down
casey j says:
we figured sending monarchy on over so you could have a wonder for the golden age, rather than sumeria getting it (or at least they would have to research it)
Whomp says:
OK well that might be useful
Whomp says:
we're in anarchy now
casey j says:
ah how long?
Whomp says:
it was 7 iirc
casey j says:
from last turn?
Whomp says:
yep
casey j says:
that might work pretty all right if we traded
casey j says:
we have 2 turns left on IW (or 1 after this turn), and we could then do math in 4
Whomp says:
I think we're on it too
casey j says:
on math? going to complete in anarchy?
Whomp says:
i think so
Whomp says:
it was like two turn iirc
casey j says:
ah well that throws a wrench in the even tech trade then
Whomp says:
well let's see if i can work something with our peoples
Whomp says:
ladies I should say
casey j says:

casey j says:
see what you can come up with. we probably want to at least trade poly and monarchy straight across for CoL and Republic. It would be nice to have several shots at popping Construction and Currency
Whomp says:
so true
casey j says:
if you wanted to avoid popping poly we could send it over this turn
casey j says:
but then i guess you would get HBR or monarchy since you are still on math
casey j says:
i dont know, we ould have to work out logistics
Whomp says:
we have HBR
Whomp says:
we're finishing masonry not maths
Whomp says:
so we don't have maths yet
Whomp says:
i had to look at a picture to figure out our tech path hehe
casey j says:
ah ok
casey j says:
were you shooting for the pyramids or just straight to the Lighthouse
Whomp says:
lighthouse
Whomp says:
We kind of felt this was an arch pretty early
casey j says:
I dont remember when we first thought that
casey j says:
we didnt send out a curragh for a long while
Whomp says:
when we kept walking into coast and didn't meet anyone we kinda knew
casey j says:

Whomp says:
it will be quite a bit different than last game
Whomp says:
though trading luxs and resources is going to be a problem

Peace offer....I didn't see any downside with extending peace terms for 20.
casey j says:
so do you want to sign a peace deal while we talk to our teams?
casey j says:
indeed, very different
Whomp says:
I think we can do that
casey j says:
how long?
Whomp says:
I'd say let's do 20 turns and hammer out a planWhomp says:
I know we'd prefer not to accelerate the scientifics
casey j says:
alright, im sure we will be fine with that.
casey j says:
i thought you guys might trade one of them up for the free tech

Good point...
Whomp says:
well we'll see but i'm not sure either or our UU's benefit from a fast pace
casey j says:
yeah, i would hate to creat a scientific bloc against us though
Whomp says:
that's true
casey j says:
we have furs and silks btw, not that it helps anyone much!
Whomp says:
we saw that play out last game
Whomp says:
i'm trying to think what our two luxs are
Whomp says:
incense
Whomp says:
dyes
casey j says:
ah
casey j says:
well if we did math next, and we swapped:

He wants to deal...

casey j says:
US- give math, poly, monarchy
casey j says:
you- give CoL, MM, Republic, philo and HBR
casey j says:
we benefit by something like 400-500 beakers
casey j says:
but we have 3 huts between us to pop, if we dont get tech to share, we can make it up with goldWhomp says:
you have wheel?
casey j says:
so we can at least buy what we dont have
casey j says:
hmm let me check
casey j says:
why no, we dont
casey j says:
its only a 1 turn tech though
Whomp says:
ok
casey j says:
currency would be a 4 turner i guess, with any luck we could be Medieval by turn 100


Whomp says:
did you get iron and horses on the island?
casey j says:
getting iron after this turn, dont have the wheel
Whomp says:
ah right
casey j says:
no iron/horses?
casey j says:
or on the islands off our shore
Whomp says:
horses are there so I'm thinking he gave you iron
casey j says:
hmm interesting
Whomp says:
my guess is he made these things unbalanced
casey j says:
what does a hwacha need
casey j says:
iron and saltpeter?
Whomp says:
i think so
Whomp says:
cannon
casey j says:
brb
Whomp says:
salt only

Inquiry into their turnplayer
Whomp says:
PrinceMyshkin is like brand new to CFC
Whomp says:
He must know what the heck he's doing
casey j says:
yeah he is pretty good actually, has a good grasp on new things
Whomp says:
i'm sure it's all layed out too
casey j says:
he showed up in the HOF forums a while back so I knew he was pretty decent.
Whomp says:
gotcha

More BS...about stuff and things.

Tubby Rower
May 31, 2007, 04:06 AM
Cane's comments doesn't conflict with my own.....

if we go (north-)west along that coastal bit and then (south-)west along that other coastal bit, we should come into contact with 2 more teams' home continents. So yes if we go due west then we should meet someone indicating that to the NW is GONG.

Tubby Rower
May 31, 2007, 04:14 AM
it sounded like they had some more huts to pop. I wonder if they are talking about their resource isle or if they are talking about on their continent.

I also found it odd to be in GA this early in the game without population needed to make it pay off. They must be planning for an early war as well.

Wotan
May 31, 2007, 05:16 AM
it sounded like they had some more huts to pop. I wonder if they are talking about their resource isle or if they are talking about on their continent.

I also found it odd to be in GA this early in the game without population needed to make it pay off. They must be planning for an early war as well.

How many huts did we encounter on the starting island? 3? And we have popped another hut on the first resource island. Have they saved 2 huts on their starting island?

Their UU suggest an early war but the layout of the map should tell them it could be costly in Galleys. Both crossings need two risky passages so on average they will see one Galley lost for every two units making it across... Seafaring would have been a great trait to have on this map. ;)

Tubby Rower
May 31, 2007, 05:38 AM
Byzantines would have been the most awesome-est

Robi D
May 31, 2007, 05:46 AM
True but then no one chose seafaring and we built the GLH so sea crossings are other peoples problem and not ours;)

Whomp
May 31, 2007, 07:21 AM
Personally, it doesn't sound like they want to use their UU quite like we'd think. They are just now finishing IW so unless they're building warriors for upgrade I'd be surprised. Wotan if you can check the Military advisor for strength we should keep an eye on them. We know they have 4 curraghs out searching.

On a tech deal, they presume we'll need monarchy to kick off a GA. As I told 'Cane we are not looking to accelerate the pace. There are 3 scientifics so unless we're getting a free tech it's not in our best interest. If they gift each other into the MA's they have the potential for 3 free techs.

Let's see what Council has and see if we can manufacture a 2 or 3 fer.

Whomp
May 31, 2007, 09:32 PM
JB dialed me up (just as I was playing El J's Viet Nam scenario SG.....a little delay ThERat. :mischief: )

It would be nice to get ahead of Council by popping some huts. I'd feel a lot better trading with these guys than some of the others. What do you guys think of their construction/currency thoughts? We'd have to get some compensation and I really don't think we want or need monarchy.

I told him we'd like to see what Council has first.

Jb1964 says:
Cubs .491 > ChiSox .490 winning percentage. Welcome back to the world of diplo. Sorry to bug you when you're busy but I couldn't resist. Have a good one.
Whomp says:
doh
Whomp says:
Hi JB
Whomp says:
enjoy your lead
jb1964 says:
my nature to be a goof
Whomp says:
My guys stink but your guys spent more to stink
jb1964 says:
$200MM
Whomp says:
:muttleysnicker:
Whomp says:
how ya been?
jb1964 says:
doing well, you?/
Whomp says:
all's good.
jb1964 says:
I think prince is holding out to the last minute to play the Gong set in hopes of inking a deal w/ the babes
Whomp says:
i'm playing a new scenario El Justo developed
Whomp says:
I don't think we'll be able to come back with a tech deal this turn
Whomp says:
we're struggling with the monarchy thing
jb1964 says:
agreed, we told him to move on
Whomp says:
Yeah tell him to move on
jb1964 says:
What's the struggle?
Whomp says:
I don't think we want monarchy just to get a wonder
jb1964 says:
Take the crown, build the gardens and enjoy your GA
jb1964 says:
OK
Whomp says:
we don't have the capability to switch like you guys
jb1964 says:
Goetcha
Whomp says:
We're working on something else though
jb1964 says:
Galleys full of babes?
Whomp says:
Did you like our picture?
Whomp says:
hehe
jb1964 says:
Bambi?
Whomp says:
Bambi is Booti's picture
jb1964 says:
Which is yours, there was on w/ a pyramid of cans, that was funny
Whomp says:
Bambi might be hotter than Charlize Theron
Whomp says:
she's your envoy
Whomp says:
fyi
jb1964 says:
was that posted to the site or in an email? I have not kept up w/ the saves or recent emails
Whomp says:
email
Whomp says:
i didn't know if they posted our message in the forum
jb1964 says:
just opened it, very nice
Whomp says:
please share...our gift
jb1964 says:
BTW, Casey is a Braves fan. I'm sick to my stomach.
Whomp says:
what happened?
Whomp says:
How does this type of thing happen?
Whomp says:
is it legal?
jb1964 says:
Dunno, one day they're your little boy and the next they're snorting draino and rooting for the f987ing braves
Whomp says:
lol
Whomp says:
kids these days
jb1964 says:
Tomorrow mine are out for the summer
Whomp says:
work!
Whomp says:
no messing around
Whomp says:
summer jobs!
jb1964 says:
Hey, just because we send you Monarchy doesn't mean you need to switch governments... just use the tech for your wonder. That is if you want to go that way.Whomp says:
or mowing dad's lawn
jb1964 says:
My oldest is a lifeguard
jb1964 says:
younger bother is mowing lawns
Whomp says:
ah so he likes girls
Whomp says:
and the other works hard
jb1964 says:
Man, does he, we've had an interesting year
Whomp says:
phone bills?
jb1964 says:
No, 18 year old girl took a keen interest in my 15 year old CHILD
Whomp says:
gulp
jb1964 says:
But we played our card right and it died out
Whomp says:
phew
Whomp says:
it would have anyhow since she's out of h.s.
jb1964 says:
Just shared my "draino" comment w/ Casey, he's formulating a retort
jb1964 says:
Hey, I know Casey told you that the Babes are our only contact to date... Have you met any of the others?
jb1964 says:
Maybe those nutty Koreans building SoZ?
Whomp says:
We're about to meet our third contact
Whomp says:
Council
Whomp says:
we've met Saber
jb1964 says:
Speak well of us
Whomp says:
Of course
Whomp says:
It will be interesting to see what develops
jb1964 says:
This map is a kick...
Whomp says:
no doubt
Whomp says:
i like the idea of a naval game
Whomp says:
this one could go on for awhile
Whomp says:
past cavs and rails like last game
jb1964 says:
Well, after the last game I think the theory is, strike first, die second
jb1964 says:
Just looking over our Babe Diplo thread... you guys are thought well of...
jb1964 says:
What is your take on a trade for poly & monarchy for Wheel, HBR, MM, and philo (and maybe CoL)? That way we could pop our huts and get Const/Currency and share the bounty?
Whomp says:
I think we'll have to talk about it further because most of the guys didn't like the idea of monarchy
jb1964 says:
As in you have no need for it?
Whomp says:
i understand what you guys are trying to do so i'll bring it up again
Whomp says:
i don't think hanging gardens was a consideration tbh
Whomp says:
you guys are beloved by us too btw
jb1964 says:
I'm not keen on all the nuances of C3C still, but I thought the idea was to take techs off the table to increase the chances of popping const and other
Whomp says:
idiots don't change their spots or sumpin like that
jb1964 says:
true that
Whomp says:
it makes sense what the thinking is
Whomp says:
if you guys pop huts and get currency or construction it would be a pretty sweet gig
jb1964 says:
it's so funny, I would have popped them by turn 20
Whomp says:
monarchy is dead end...they only benefit would be Hanging Gardens
Whomp says:
i'm a big fan of settler popping
jb1964 says:
Are we going to get a counter offer of sorts? What is the general gist of what the Babes are thinking. That is, the non-blondes.
Whomp says:
Definitely
Whomp says:
I think what we're hoping is tech prices drop when we meet council
jb1964 says:
kewl
Whomp says:
we're a little afraid of the scientifics and tech pace
Whomp says:
i mentioned that to Cane last night
jb1964 says:
I read it in the thread
Whomp says:
if they meet and share techs we'll be left in the dust
Whomp says:
so how to handle them is a concern
Whomp says:
saber wants to accelerate the pace and we've been reluctant
jb1964 says:
agreed, that was brought up. We certainly could work to keep the tech pace sane but they could go off the charts w/o us.
Whomp says:
I think the west move by us will give us Free btw
jb1964 says:
Well, you guys hold the contact edge, that's for sure. In all your wheeling and dealing we would liek a seat at the table and a long term partner.
Whomp says:
I know and we're obviously most comfortable with you guys long term
Whomp says:
I'd like to get a deal done

Robi D
Jun 01, 2007, 02:22 AM
I'm very comfortable have a long term deal with Gong. Afterall its nice to have one friend and we don't have to attack them to win (at this stage anyway)

ThERat
Jun 01, 2007, 02:39 AM
I don't mind having long term commitments with them as well, now that we know that Free and Council traded with each other..we should make sure we have one ally for the time being

Kickbooti
Jun 01, 2007, 07:02 AM
Gong would be my choice. Idiocy is thicker than water.

Tubby Rower
Jun 01, 2007, 07:26 AM
shoot for some idiots, their heads are thicker than pretty near everything you could think of ;)

Whomp
Jun 01, 2007, 08:03 AM
OK well let's see what techs everyone has to see what deals we can strike.
There's got to be an opportunity to get a 2 or 3 fer done I'd think.

If we set up a long term deal with Gong should we make them aware of our intent to whack Saber?

Wotan
Jun 01, 2007, 08:13 AM
We are now missing only Maths, Construction and Currency. Not much to trade with/for...

Hut popping with units are 65% Barbs and only 10% Tech. While Settler pooping is 40% tech! So popping with units is simply a question of denying them to others... Rather than hoping for techs. Our investment would be a Settler for 360 - 480 beakers.

Robi D
Jun 01, 2007, 08:14 AM
OK well let's see what techs everyone has to see what deals we can strike.
There's got to be an opportunity to get a 2 or 3 fer done I'd think.

If we set up a long term deal with Gong should we make them aware of our intent to whack Saber?

Depends on the deal really. I wouldn't be in a rush to tell them

Whomp
Jun 01, 2007, 08:23 AM
OK let's lay low on the tech picture and war details. I will let them know we just popped poly so unless they can come up with something we're not sure what tech deal could be struck.

Robi D
Jun 01, 2007, 08:40 AM
I guess my main concern is not that they would spill the beans but that they might feel with our impending conquest of Saber that they might become a junior partner and consider not getting involved to deeply in agreements (and becoming stuck as a junior partner).

Kickbooti
Jun 01, 2007, 08:56 AM
If we set up a long term deal with Gong should we make them aware of our intent to whack Saber?

DON'T tell them. They haven't met Saber and it isn't their concern yet. We don't even have a deal inked, to leak the war plans is premature. They may be idiots, but idiots are out to WIN.

Besides, I've seen Gong's roster, as a moderator you've probably had to rough a few of them up, I'm sure there are hard feelings nursed over lots of cheap beer.

Whomp
Jun 02, 2007, 12:11 PM
OK a good discussion with GONG. They'll research maths so we don't have to trade for it with Saber. Saber will not be happy but I think we can explain our fast pace concerns. They're convinced we have to build HG's and I tried to say we can wait till we're better developed in the MA's. We also explained we could risk starting a war because of our capabilities but that might be risky. :mischief:

GONG will pop the huts so we should be able to turn off research in the process for some short rushing opportunities. Does this sound ok or should we start on construction either way?

We're looking for 80 turns of peace. Is everyone ok with this?
casey j says:
how is that
jb1964 says:
hello ladies
Whomp says:
hi JB
Whomp says:
nice fight yesterday
Whomp says:
sign of a champion
casey j says:
heh
jb1964 says:
did I know that was coming or what
jb1964 says:
hahah
casey j says:
i think zambrano would win
jb1964 says:
he did
Whomp says:
zambrano's a big dude
casey j says:
vs. the whole team
Whomp says:
busted up his lip pretty good
Whomp says:
always helps when your pitcher is fighting his catcher too
Simon says:
so we not in the other one anymore?
Whomp says:
no
jb1964 says:
So, where are we on putting together a tech deal and inking some long term mutual affection pact?
Whomp says:
brb
Simon says:
what game are we talking about now?
casey j says:
the civ 3 one
casey j says:
we are kind of schizo
jb1964 says:
Whomper and I were talking baseball but I'm switching gears to Civ
Simon says:
your gong right?
jb1964 says:
Yes, former KISS and now Gong
Rob says:
i'm here... finally
Simon says:
how come you lot are so technologically ?
Rob says:
casey brought up an 80 turn deal if i remember correctly
Rob says:
earlier that is
jb1964 says:
We've been isolated and still have huts to pop
jb1964 says:
And we did focus on the beer pyramid
jb1964 says:
life's good
Rob says:
lol
Rob says:
we were jelous so we are building one out of hot babes
jb1964 says:
Please let it fall on me
Rob says:
maybe we can work out a swap at some stage?
jb1964 says:
Ow, the wife just whacked me
Simon says:
brb food
Whomp says:
holly was on a mission today too
Whomp says:
and here i have diplo to discuss
casey j says:
heh technologically
Whomp says:
she just left to take her national boards

jb1964 has left the conversation.

jb1964 was added to this conversation. Handwriting is no longer supported because not all participants can view handwritten messages. Handwritten messages will be sent as text.

casey j says:
how are you guys going to start your golden age
Whomp says:
not sure
Whomp says:
what wonders other than hanging gardens? I forget
Whomp says:
we have the commercial one
casey j says:
HG is the only one for agricultural
Whomp says:
hmm
Whomp says:
so maths
Whomp says:
you need maths
Whomp says:
how quickly do you need to pop the huts?
Whomp says:
is it imminent?
casey j says:
within 10 turns probably I would guess
jb1964 says:
We're running outta AA and would like to get whatever's valuable to both of us
Whomp says:
ok here's the dilemma
Whomp says:
if we trade with saber for maths it accelerates a scientific
casey j says:
yeah
casey j says:
what do they want for it
Whomp says:
they want hbr and myst
Whomp says:
which leaves 30 beakers
Whomp says:
they want to give 14 g
jb1964 says:
minor detail
Whomp says:
right but do we want to advance them to the MA's?
jb1964 says:
I would rather you not
Whomp says:
not sure about that since we know what happened with the two scientifics last game
Rob says:
but there is another issue tied to all this
Whomp says:
Council and Free
Rob says:
who have traded with each other extensively
casey j says:
what are their tech situations
Whomp says:
attached at the hip it seems
jb1964 says:
OK, we form the other aliance and leave Sabre in the dark ages
Whomp says:
ok so if we research maths you'll be fine to wait on your huts?
casey j says:
we can research math while you are in anarchy
Whomp says:
that would alleviate a huge problem
jb1964 says:
WE're only here to help
Whomp says:
we know what cham can do so there's no reason to help him
jb1964 says:
*choke*
Whomp says:
they're not going to look to kindly on us but what can they do LOL!!!
casey j says:
brb, what are the other two's tech situations
Rob says:
well they have managed to get to MA
Whomp says:

Whomp says:
unreal
jb1964 says:
Then they have been swapping big time

jb1964 has left the conversation.

Whomp says:
poor jb
Rob says:
he'll never know the answer lol

jb1964 has been added to the conversation.

Whomp says:
here you go jb
jb1964 says:
thanks
Whomp says:
that was a big thud jb
jb1964 says:
I go down hard
Whomp says:
like michael barrett or AJ
jb1964 says:
OK, the others are in the MA
Rob says:
afraid so
jb1964 says:

Whomp says:
we assume free
Rob says:
can't be anyone else
Whomp says:
we should know for sure very soon
jb1964 says:
Neither of us are interested in cranking up Council
Whomp says:
nor free
Whomp says:
nor saber for that matter
jb1964 says:
OK, we research Math
Rob says:
the only thing i wish to crank up the council is 50 MW's
jb1964 says:
haha
jb1964 says:
sill laughing
jb1964 says:
Well, toss in some GS's and we might survive
Rob says:
well donsig is a strong motivating factor for me
jb1964 says:
OK, techs and peace
Rob says:
80 turns
jb1964 says:
Sure
Simon says:
back
casey j says:
im back
casey j says:
had contact lens problems
Rob says:
lol so you didn't read our response yet
jb1964 says:
oh, one moment
Rob says:
i'm waiting for the thud
Whomp says:

jb1964 says:
Ya lost me guys
Whomp says:
MA's
Rob says:
casey was away for that part
casey j says:
im caught up
Whomp says:
eek
casey j says:
so free and saber are in the MA, with at least 2 techs probably
Whomp says:
no council
Whomp says:
free
Whomp says:
all the more reason not to trade with saber
casey j says:
do they have government techs? ok council and free (kuningas right?)
Whomp says:
yep
Simon says:
yeah
Whomp says:
republics
Rob says:
but they are still in despot right now
Whomp says:
anarchy maybe or haven't revolted iirc
Whomp says:
they wouldn't go feud i'd think
Rob says:
coucil hadn't yet
Whomp says:
ok
jb1964 says:
So you're in anarchy then
Whomp says:
we are
jb1964 says:
Ihave never used feud
casey j says:
well we can certainly deny council their golden age
Rob says:
another 4 or 5 turns to go
Whomp says:
night.mare!
Simon says:
i used fued onece
Simon says:
*once- wanted to see if it did anything it didnt say on the tin
Whomp says:
twice here per variant
Simon says:
it didnt...
casey j says:
you can build a massive army quick in feudie
Whomp says:
brutal unless you're going for culture or small ics
Whomp says:
small size cities
Whomp says:
WW was brutal with the pop rushing on culture
Whomp says:
so there it is
casey j says:
do you guys have any plans to build the colossus to deny korea their golden age?
jb1964 says:
So Council would need collossus for their GA
Whomp says:
i see
Whomp says:
I'd presume 80 peace is a done deal
Whomp says:
so now it's teching
jb1964 says:
yep
casey j says:
well to keep the other two in place we could build the HG (no GA for free) and Colossus (no GA for Korea)
jb1964 says:
We should move each other down the line, pop the huts, share the techs and find a way to make up any disparity
Whomp says:
yep
Whomp says:
so we need to cross our fingers...i think it's 40%?
casey j says:
i think you guys are going to have to build the gardens for a GA, not to try to sell you a quasi useless tech but i dont see how else you are going to do it
casey j says:
if you are going to attack someone to initiate the GA, the earliest i figure is with pikes protection but you have no iron. no iron=no rails so IA is out. the only thing left is with salpeter, which each of us might or might not have
casey j says:
and then the others could have salt and render MWs kind of harmless
casey j says:
we would rather give it to you for free than have sumeria who is in the MAs get a GA
casey j says:
and increase their lead
Whomp says:
yeah....man that's expensive
Whomp says:
makes me wonder whether we should hit one of them with our MWs
Whomp says:
huge risk
Whomp says:
but versus building a wonder...
jb1964 says:
Yes it is
Whomp says:
they can't hit us back though
jb1964 says:
Have you figured out that the waters are only safe for you?
Whomp says:
so is it worthwhile to use 30 shields to kick it off or build HG
Rob says:
not completely just for us
casey j says:
well it depends, are they weak to you? with a golden age you could build a bazillion MWs and ships to carry them. its a tough question.
jb1964 says:
There are passages, but then you can see someone coming down that road and be ready for it.
Rob says:
anyone can cross the waters but it would be part suicide
Rob says:
and they would lose some boats
Rob says:
around 50% i think
jb1964 says:
That's what I mean, nobody is going to put a loaded ship in suicide waters
Whomp says:
the question is whether they'd continue war for the rest of the game
Rob says:
well if we start one we would have to plan on finishing it too
jb1964 says:
Well, if you want the HG's then we have Monarchy and a promise not to build it.
Simon says:
what does HG do?
Simon says:
other than give us a ga?
Whomp says:
3 content
Whomp says:
on the island
jb1964 says:
It gives you your GA, and some happy feet
Simon says:
oh well thats useless, id prefer to just whack some council
casey j says:
3 content in the city that builds it, 1 content in all other cities
Whomp says:
ok
Whomp says:
i thought it was each city
jb1964 says:
it's 10% on the happy gas slider
jb1964 says:
no, only 1 per city
jb1964 says:
Bach's is 2
Whomp says:
300 shields
casey j says:
well a ship invasion has the advantage of dealing more hurt to them. it will be a lot of ship building though, and how are you going to cover your landing?
Whomp says:
we'd have to have spears or swords
casey j says:
i thought you had no iron
jb1964 says:
Iron
Rob says:
that would also depend on if they were expecting us
Whomp says:
remember they don't have map knowledge of us
Whomp says:
in fact i don't think anyone does
Rob says:
or my devious mind
Whomp says:
HG expires at steam
casey j says:
no one has iron?
Simon says:
saber do
Rob says:
yep
Whomp says:
can't remember if council does
jb1964 says:
OK, you don't want Monarchy to be part of the tech swap?
Whomp says:
i'm leaning no
casey j says:
this is like my pbem with wacken, what to do on an island map
Whomp says:
if we did we'd be inclined to wait towards unis
Whomp says:
he had a great plan Casy
Whomp says:
Casey
Whomp says:
i should dig it up
jb1964 says:
Wait towards Unis?
Whomp says:
it was in your forum right?
Whomp says:
to build HG
Whomp says:
at least the 300 shields aren't a back breaker as we develop
jb1964 says:
Universal Suferage?
Whomp says:
and then can focus on doing it for building unis
Whomp says:
do you follow?
jb1964 says:
Actually, no
jb1964 says:
sorry
jb1964 says:
Acronyms are thowing me off
Whomp says:
universities
Whomp says:
300 shields in the MA is not nearly as painful as AAs
jb1964 says:
OK, what about them
Whomp says:
so kicking off a GA in the MA's wouldn't be so brutal
jb1964 says:
I understand
Whomp says:
so the question is if council has to research monarchy then build it is it worth it?
casey j says:
sorry i was away for a sec
casey j says:
yeah he had a good plan, with iro too
casey j says:
free you mean
casey j says:
council needs colossus
Whomp says:
gotcha
Whomp says:
ok
Whomp says:
so free then
casey j says:
free needs HG, and MOM, or GL
Whomp says:
h'wachas will be near impossible to kick off a GA
Simon says:
pity you got MOM huh?
Whomp says:
so free may have to derail the tech pace
jb1964 says:
MoM rocks!
Whomp says:
tough call but i sense we're focused on a farmer's gambit still
Whomp says:
another wonder is 10 MWs
Rob says:
i like that wonder
casey j says:
indeed. but you need ships to send them, which will be 300 shields
casey j says:
but are more useful long term
casey j says:
its a dilemma
Whomp says:
it is
casey j says:
plus unit support for all your units
Whomp says:
while trying to farmer at the same time
Simon says:
why do we need 300 shields for ships?
Whomp says:
300 for HG
Simon says:
casey j says:
indeed. but you need ships to send them, which will be 300 shields
Whomp says:
5 MWs and 5 galleys
Whomp says:
= 300
Rob says:
how much shieds is one ship
casey j says:
30 shields
Whomp says:
30
Simon says:
i think the amount we have already saved on not having to suicide all our ships is already quite good
Rob says:
well 2 MW fit on one ship
casey j says:
yeah
casey j says:
i was thinking 10 galleys, 20 units
Whomp says:
i'd think
Simon says:
i dunno
Rob says:
ok i'm with you
Simon says:
kiss attacked with like 8
Whomp says:
it was in the MA's too
Simon says:
still scared the . .. .. .. . outa us
casey j says:
but it took them a while, and they were at war
Rob says:
nuts hit tnt with 4
Rob says:
took out there capital too
Whomp says:
there's no chance to retaliate though
Simon says:
after kiss did the hard part
Rob says:
no the war before kiss
Rob says:
when i ran donsig in circle
Whomp says:
that war was silly
Simon says:
that wasnt our capital....
Whomp says:
it was on your terms
Rob says:
it was orginally
Whomp says:
this wouldn't be on anyone but our terms
Simon says:
yeah but then through our genius we palace jumped
Rob says:
until provo moved it lol
Whomp says:
well...we should see what the smart guys think about building HG
Rob says:
did like the sea breeze at night lol
Rob says:
*didn't
Simon says:
makes so much more sense now
Rob says:

jb1964 says:
OK, we can get you Math while you're in Anarchy
jb1964 says:
We'll get CoL, MM, Wheel and HBR
jb1964 says:
Pop the huts
jb1964 says:
and see what techs we can send your way
casey j says:
are free or Council weak to you?
Whomp says:
we don't know on free
jb1964 says:
You're down to zero huts now, correct
Whomp says:
i think we are or 1 left
jb1964 says:
I thought you poppoed your last w/ poly
jb1964 says:
but no matter
Rob says:
Council is average to us atm
jb1964 says:
if you have one then kewl
Whomp says:
i can't remember
Whomp says:
let me look
Rob says:
i think that popped a couple of turns ago didn't it
Whomp says:
poly was last turn iirc and it looks like the last one
Rob says:
yes thats it
jb1964 says:
OK, we have two..
Rob says:
no problems
Rob says:
does that wrap it all up or is there something else to discuss
Whomp says:
i think we're good
jb1964 says:
Who writes up the deal?
Whomp says:
i have no creativity
casey j says:
what is the deal
casey j says:
80 turn peace, help in wars?
jb1964 says:
80 peace
Whomp says:
wars?
Whomp says:
how?
Simon says:
just how would you help?
jb1964 says:
techs, and compensation
Rob says:
just who would attack you
jb1964 says:
at this point I don't know that wec an
Rob says:
i think we established only we could and we are giving you 80 turns of peace
jb1964 says:
I'll wriet up a deal for the peace, techs and compensation
Whomp says:
'Cane where was WOA's spoiler?
jb1964 says:
Casey, are we ready to pop huts now or in short order?
casey j says:
hold on let me ask him
casey j says:
grahamiams forum
Simon says:
is wacken going to wacken this year?
Simon says:
some of my mates are going
Whomp says:
got it
Whomp says:
graham's
jb1964 says:
Hey i need to run out in short order...

Arjen has been added to the conversation.

Rob says:
ok guys i'm off to bed
jb1964 says:
I'll send a deal your way for the techs and peas
Arjen says:
oh hi everyone
casey j says:
theres wacken
Rob says:
have a good night or day
Arjen says:
im wacken

Rob has left the conversation.

jb1964 has left the conversation.

Arjen has left the conversation.

Whomp says:
where'd everone go?
Simon says:
hello?
Whomp says:
hi
casey j says:
i dunno mass exodus
Whomp says:
casey invited Wacken and he's gone now
Simon says:
caseys there
Whomp says:
i see him
casey j says:
yeah but i have to run
casey j says:
see ya guys
Simon says:
cyas later
Simon says:
oh poo me too
Simon says:
dr who is on now!

Tubby Rower
Jun 02, 2007, 12:42 PM
I'm ok with 80 turns of peace with Gong. How about propose that we partner with them tech wise and go after the other 3 teams militarily and the first person to get to 66% wins?

Whomp
Jun 02, 2007, 12:48 PM
They really can't compete with us in that regard since we're the only ones with a reasonable chance to attack till galleons. I think GONG realizes this and could be the reason they requested 80 turns (closer to galleons/caravels). Many things would be sorted out at that point and we should be aware they could switch sides. We should proceed with our planned attacks and if they're in the way we'll just have to run them over too.

Wotan
Jun 02, 2007, 01:02 PM
I like that too. We would have GONG to cover our backs while we move off into the east.

EDIT: Do we go for gold after Masonry?

Wotan
Jun 02, 2007, 05:04 PM
I am now absolutely sure any deal to help GONG have a shot at the GH pop Currency/Construction in the near future to be bad for us in the long run. Please read my rather long discussion on this in the turns thread.

Whomp
Jun 02, 2007, 06:55 PM
Yep I'm inclined to think we may have to go this alone for awhile.

ThERat
Jun 02, 2007, 07:42 PM
so we decided not to give them maths so we could pop in parrallel with us trying construction and them currency?

Whomp
Jun 02, 2007, 07:52 PM
OK talking to 'Cane and they seem amenable to giving us cash for the techs. Let's figure out what's equitable and this wouldn't hurt our rushing/short rushing capabilities.
Whomp says:
You there?
casey j says:
hey man i had to go earlier
casey j says:
wedding cookout shower event kind of thing
Whomp says:
hey
casey j says:
hey hey
Whomp says:
I didn't mean to bug you at your party
casey j says:
nah we are back
casey j says:
we just had to drive to BFE
casey j says:
and i had to get the dogs ready, food ready,. etc etc
Whomp says:
Egypt's far
casey j says:
yeah buddy
casey j says:
whats not encouraging
casey j says:
somebody is way behind in world population
Whomp says:
i wanted to let you know we can get maths in 4 even in anarchy
Whomp says:
if you want to give us cash in lieu of that might work better
Whomp says:
since we're in anarchy so there's not a lot of cash we can generate
Whomp says:
that seems insane to me but it's true
casey j says:
how much cash do you want
casey j says:
thats cheaper for us
Whomp says:
it's because of our contacts i'm sure
casey j says:
we are playing a standard map on emperor right?
Whomp says:
it's another reason we may consider having you give us gold through the balance of the AA's since we can get currency in ~six too
Whomp says:
i don't know if that's possible but I know some of the reduced prices will be an issue on exchanging techs
Whomp says:
But we want to be fair without getting screwed
Whomp says:
does that make sense?
casey j says:
tech cost is 157 with knowing 3 rivals who have math on emperor/standard size, so thats only 14 scientists
Whomp says:
but same with currency and construction
Whomp says:
we'll know 3 w/currency and 2 w/construction
casey j says:
yeah, well it makes sense that we buy things, since you have the contacts, its win win for both of us
Whomp says:
so the quaestion is what happens if we give techs and no techs pop from huts?
casey j says:
we will have to pay you
casey j says:
if we give you gpt, can you get currency in 4?
Whomp says:
dunno
casey j says:
we can get currency in 4 turns at the higher cost (480), but that makes less sense than buying it from you
casey j says:
it conserves more of our collective gold
Whomp says:
ok wotan thinks currency will be around ~300 beakers
casey j says:
is wotan on? you can invite him and still have a private window to talk in
casey j says:
brb
Whomp says:
he went to be about 2 hours ago
Whomp says:
k
casey j says:
back
Whomp says:
k
Whomp says:
would 180g work for maths?
Whomp says:
that would be a discount from ~210 beakers
casey j says:
thats 75%, i was thinking 65-75% so probably
Whomp says:
ok
casey j says:
we probably only need wheel, HBR, MM, philo, and math
Whomp says:
k
casey j says:
we can put it on CoL and pop the huts
casey j says:
math is showing 157 for knowing 3 people knowing the tech, we are fine with paying you 23 gold extra, i dont even know if that is right or not. im using tech calc
Whomp says:
ok we'll work on that
casey j says:
of course i have to consult the team but im sure they will go for it, since it benefits us both
Whomp says:
right it's amazing we can run that fast
Whomp says:
4 turner can't ask for much more than that
casey j says:
yeah, and even if you want to buy it from sabre, thats fine. math i mean.
Whomp says:
we should do that but honestly i don't think we have any interest in trading with saber and the other two are really far ahead
casey j says:
you think one of us should build the great library? how long have the other two been in the MAs?
Whomp says:
hard to say since we just met Council
Whomp says:
weird thing is they haven't revolted
Whomp says:
so they may have a wonder working
casey j says:
nothing has been gleaned from convo? how is your military rank against both?
casey j says:
im sure council is building the colossus
Whomp says:
i thought we were average but i think we're strong acutally
Whomp says:
we have a lot of boats out there
Whomp says:
i tried Gen W today and he was not very talkative
Whomp says:
had a lan party but honestly there's not much to talk about
casey j says:
they probably are dead set with each other, working towards astronomy to land a stack or 10
Whomp says:
exactly
casey j says:
nothing much to offer
Whomp says:
that's why we need to keep saber in the dark
casey j says:
yeah
casey j says:
well we can do 80 turn peace, formalize the no trade clause for insurance and keep each other in the loop, do the math deal (gpt or lump sum?) and trade the rest, pop the huts, and then we can see what tech costs are and what we owe you. eta 5-6 turns. then we have to sort out MA deals and tech path
casey j says:
is all that correct? you are jumping in bed with us?
Whomp says:
yep
casey j says:
one civ is way behind in pop, since together we have 47% of world population
Whomp says:
wow
Whomp says:
that's huge
asey j says:
yeah, it should improve too when you are out of anarchy and we continue to grow

Wotan
Jun 03, 2007, 12:30 AM
Math is 180 for us ATM. 15 Scientists.

There is the question of us needing a friend too. GONG is the only candidate so if we want a friend they are what is offered. They will also give us better protection if we get them up in Tech though I am a bit puzzled about the slow tech pace they have managed so far. OTOH we have managed to get the philo free tech and popped 4 techs from GHs so that is basically the difference between us.

Question is do we join at the hip? That is basically what we want if we are to supply them with 24+ turns of research and we want a moratorium on hostilities until we are sole survivors on the map. 80 turns is (as was said by someone earlier) a "safe" period for them to make sure they are not threatened by our GLH.

We need them to deal with FREE. I know Kuningas abilities and he is the player I fear the most in this game. He is also not too concerned about the fact they risk Galleys crossing to GONG. Their designated target I would think? With Council on their other side they too have a natural direction of attack. They will soon be able to send Knights and with 2 70 shield Knights losing a Galley for every 2 knights is just a 20% increase in the price of a Knight on GONGs shore. A very different price to the 50% increase for a HM or Sword. I am pretty sure he has presented such a plan to his team. Maybe we should make GONG aware of the rather imminent risk they are facing? This is also why I would advocate a deal with GONG even if we are not 100% winners in such a deal. Let them pay us gold so we can rush units or keep tech research high in MA.

Another issue is GHs. I am pretty sure they are unaware of the (probable) GH on their resource island. That would add a third GH to the chances of getting both remaining techs. Or we could research Currency and wait with huts until only Construction remains? With 3 GHs the chance of getting one tech is ~80%.

Decisions, decisions... I guess it all comes down to our need of a friend and of a shield against FREE. We need to make them aware of the threat they face in their west. And our targets must be SABER -> Council. Reducing the Scientifics are absolutely crucial. So from that view GONG is also safe from us. ;) Our good start should hopefully be enough for us to take out SABER and leave BABE/GONG vs. FREE/Council. And if Council is as weak as you say then we should have a good shot at getting FREE into a defensive position with a steep uphill battle to get to Domination with BABE/GONG controlling a majority of the map.

GLib is not a bad idea. But I would advocate GONG build it. then keep them in the dark until such time as we want as many techs as possible from it. If we build it I fear FREE/Council is soon at Education, beelining for Navigation? While we could give GONG a good shot at a whole heap of techs by waiting to introduce Council.

Tubby Rower
Jun 03, 2007, 05:06 AM
those guys are honorable and I'd be willing to gift them with "future favors" to be determined later. be it techs, cash or military help

Whomp
Jun 03, 2007, 10:06 PM
I think we hammered it out pretty good. One thing I suggested is we get compensated somehow for our techs. Either building the Glib or future considerations. I also put the bug in their ear about FREE being their closest neighbor and to be careful. It's very close to the time when knights are in.
Let's get a beaker count so I can send it to JB tomorrow. They will finish IW this turn so we're talking CoL, MM, HBR, philo, ?wheel? and maths for cash. They'll try to get construction and currency from the huts.

jb1964 says:
Hey, I finaly typed up our rather simple agreement and posted it on Gong for review.
Whomp says:
ok cool
Whomp says:
did cane tell you we can do maths in 4 even in anarchy?
jb1964 says:
I thought I read that and was impressed
jb1964 says:
That's a lot of food and peeps
Whomp says:
much better for us the use the cash from you then try to hire taxmen
jb1964 says:
OK, so math isn't going to be part of what we send your way then?
Whomp says:
correct
jb1964 says:
Did you discuss w/ Cane the goingn rate on techs?
Whomp says:
you'll give us some cash while you go zero science
Whomp says:
i think 150g was what we talked about
Whomp says:
it's 180 beakers at our rate because of contacts
jb1964 says:
OK, that works
Whomp says:
another thought on how you can help us by getting you caught up...
Whomp says:
how about you do the Glib?
jb1964 says:
There's great debate over that currently
jb1964 says:
different factions want to go other routes
jb1964 says:
How would you suggest we sahre the GLib if we can get it?
Whomp says:
well council and free will be way ahead
Whomp says:
obviously we'd need you to meet them
jb1964 says:
So if we were able to build the Lib we should work out an agreement to swap techs for some time to come...
Whomp says:
yep and i think we're giving a pretty good head start
Whomp says:
we've been pretty lucky with philo free tech and huts popped
jb1964 says:
I hope we get the same w/ currency and contruction
Whomp says:
i think we should begin construction regardless don't you?
jb1964 says:
Before you do check in w/ us re: the Great Lib
Whomp says:
ok
Whomp says:
we need to understand what happens if construction and currency come through if we're giving all these techs. fair enough?
jb1964 says:
durring the KISS golden age we built units...
jb1964 says:
these guys are pretty expert and milking production
jb1964 says:
So when talking w/ Cane the 150g was based on Math for your techs?
jb1964 says:
but now you don't want math
Whomp says:
we can get maths in 4 in anarchy
Whomp says:
while you can run 0% science
Whomp says:
and give us cash instead
jb1964 says:
right, I'm trying to figure out what your expectations are so we can work it out when we get const and/or curr
jb1964 says:
OK, I'm not sure where we're currently at in research
jb1964 says:
will check
jb1964 says:
but no scense in us both getting it
Whomp says:
right
Whomp says:
here's the way i see it
jb1964 says:
talk to me brother
Whomp says:
first on maths
Whomp says:
we can do it in 4 in anarchy so rather than having you do it when you're able to get cash (we can't in anarchy) we both win
Whomp says:
hence why we should do maths
Whomp says:
that's first
Whomp says:
2nd though we want you as a partner we'd like to get a fair deal in return on the techs we give.
Whomp says:
does that make sense?
jb1964 says:
totally
jb1964 says:
couldn't agree more
Whomp says:
that's one of the reasons i was thinking Glib could be done by you
Whomp says:
of course if both construction and currency comes through we can manuever on techs
Whomp says:
we would not be adverse to receiving cash too btw
Whomp says:
which again if you're running zero science until we give you math and then while you pop huts then that should alleviate it too
Whomp says:
Ok
jb1964 says:
you send us the tehcs
Whomp says:
right
jb1964 says:
after we have math and other we pop huts
jb1964 says:
you get what we get
Whomp says:
and then we figure out what happens based on the huts
Whomp says:
we just want fair value for the techs
jb1964 says:
base values, discounted, how would you figure that?
Whomp says:
even a discount for our friends but we just want to be rewarded for our knowledge
Whomp says:
i wouldn't think base values since you'll meet others
jb1964 says:
The base of your techs was about 930
jb1964 says:
math is 240 and we may already be researching it, I hope not
Whomp says:
i told him last night so i dunno if prince already set it our not
Whomp says:
maths cost us about 180 i think
jb1964 says:
Nope, we're one turn from hitting it and I'll make sure we don't
Whomp says:
good
Whomp says:
much better if you run cash than us
jb1964 says:
I'm just going off of base Standard/Emperor values, I'm really not that clued into the Tech Calcs and have been using the utility heaviliy the last few hours
jb1964 says:
Yes, us in GA and all
Whomp says:
wotan ran the numbers
Whomp says:
want me to tell you what he came up with?
jb1964 says:
The numbers I looked at were at about a 55-60% discount given that we're last in line
jb1964 says:
sorry, 55-60% of base value, not discount
jb1964 says:
But if we give you both Currency and construction wont you wind up owing us?
Whomp says:
i think he was looking at COL, wheel, philo, HBR, MM and IW...
Whomp says:
so really IW shouldn't have been in his total
Whomp says:
cuz you're finishing that next, correct?
jb1964 says:
right, we have that next turn, yes, you're up to date
Whomp says:
ok then his #'s are off
Whomp says:
he was including IW
jb1964 says:
Well, if he's up on the numbers then give them to me and I'll plug them into the agreement. Obviously we're going to get there anyway and we should bypass my ignorance if possible
jb1964 says:
Well, if he's up on the numbers then give them to me and I'll plug them into the agreement. Obviously we're going to get there anyway and we should bypass my ignorance if possible
Whomp says:
1,161 beakers (w/IW) and 840 beakers for currency and construct
jb1964 says:
drop IW and make sure to include math
Whomp says:
maths cost us 180 instead of 210
jb1964 says:
I don't have tech calc on this comp
Whomp says:
i don't eihter
jb1964 says:
well, base on Math was 240
jb1964 says:
what's base on IW?
jb1964 says:
No matter, we'll get you both Curr and Construction
jb1964 says:
just let me know the delta
Whomp says:
well the big question is whether we should research construc
Whomp says:
just in case that's 40% chance doesn't happen
jb1964 says:
seems like there have been a lot of techs popped, I think they fiddled w/ the odds
Whomp says:
you think?
jb1964 says:
We're probably not going to get both so we need to stay abreast of wht's happening
Whomp says:
well it could be because we got 4 i think
jb1964 says:
*cough*
Whomp says:
right
jb1964 says:
So to make this easier should we simply make an agreement on mutual research?
jb1964 says:
Tech sharing and the like?
Whomp says:
yes
Whomp says:
absolutely
jb1964 says:
Anything for simplification
Whomp says:
we need to catch free/council
Whomp says:
and leave saber in the dust
Whomp says:
the only thing i ask is fair
Whomp says:
we all know each other well enough to be fair
jb1964 says:
If we get Great Lib the powers that be are going to want you to send more that Charlise our way
Whomp says:

Whomp says:
twins ok?
jb1964 says:
18, sweedish
Whomp says:
http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/8977/058272747s001122452lozm5.jpg
Whomp says:
teacher?
jb1964 says:
OK, If we get the Lib... one moment...
jb1964 says:
OK, Suzy and Dr. Bambi will suffice
Whomp says:

jb1964 says:
Charlise is still great eye candy
Whomp says:
we have more
jb1964 says:
OH man, you should have Harriet watching over your shoulder
Whomp says:
she is
jb1964 says:
Haha
jb1964 says:
Back to the Lob
Whomp says:
ok so we'll do math
jb1964 says:

Great friggin' Library
Whomp says:
i think that's negotiable and assumes you get zero huts
jb1964 says:
We're going to sop up a buttload of techs
Whomp says:
are you going to have any barb issues?
jb1964 says:
That's been quelled
Whomp says:
actually it would've already happened, right?
Whomp says:
because the other two are in the MA's
jb1964 says:
We've had our run in w/ the barbs but that's history
Whomp says:
so you've got the area covered where the huts are
jb1964 says:
Wait, you mean if we get the Lib prior to popping the huts
Whomp says:
no the glib if you don't pop huts
jb1964 says:
yes, then if we go to MA the huts get nasty
Whomp says:
if you don't get anything from the huts
jb1964 says:
They'll be popped prior to any run at the Lib
Whomp says:
then you do Glib
Whomp says:
right
Whomp says:
you have to in the AAs
jb1964 says:
Yep, I'm up on that nuance
Whomp says:
but what i'm saying is let's assume you get nothing from both huts
jb1964 says:
OK, gentleman's handshake
Whomp says:
does that make sense?
jb1964 says:
Yes, I think I understand your meaning
Whomp says:
ok
Whomp says:
cool
jb1964 says:
We'll formalize this sometime quickly
Whomp says:
i want to be fair and if the feeling is Glib is too much then we can figure other stuff out
jb1964 says:
but you will not walk away from this deal in a foul mood, I'll see to that, I'm looking to stay on good terms w/ everyone
Whomp says:
yes i'll have the #'s guys give me the beaker count and we'll match #'s tomorrow
Whomp says:
cool
jb1964 says:
what do you think the other alliance is up to?
Whomp says:
free and council are in deep
jb1964 says:
they're all teched up...
Whomp says:
saber wants us to be their partner to catch up
jb1964 says:
I'm not so sure that SoZ was a mistake...
Whomp says:
and we're going to shut them out like no one's b'ness

The following message could not be delivered to all recipients:
and we're going to shut them out like no one's b'ness

Whomp says:
and we're going to shut them out like no one's b'ness

jb1964 says:
getting better at noticing when I get booted
jb1964 says:
We'll take your word on that
jb1964 says:
but I'm spooked that council and free are going after bloodshed
Whomp says:
it will cost them
Whomp says:
50% chance of sinking with units aboard?
jb1964 says:
I honestly don't know what the designs for war are going to be in this game
jb1964 says:
Well, feel free to visit them first
jb1964 says:
Oh, another topic...
jb1964 says:
resources and luxes
Whomp says:
yes
jb1964 says:
if we're in this deep we might as well look to swap everything up to bodily fluids
Whomp says:
yep
Whomp says:
you guys need to be very aware of Free
Whomp says:
Kuningas is on that team and he is mighty good
Whomp says:
and they are closest to you
Whomp says:
that's on record btw
jb1964 says:
shite
jb1964 says:
OK, when possible, when we can trade available resources we'll be giving you rights of first refusal
Whomp says:
cool
Whomp says:
that's fair
jb1964 says:
It only makes sence
Whomp says:
absolutely and i think rik has surprises on the resource front
jb1964 says:
no doubt that
jb1964 says:
So Free's in our backyard, but DO NOT have a safe navigable route to our shores?
Whomp says:
it's still something to be aware of though
Whomp says:
it won't be long before they have knights
jb1964 says:
Agreed, and just clarifying
Whomp says:
another reason to keep saber in the dark...sipahis
jb1964 says:
We'll make sure a landing is impossible and or very costly
jb1964 says:
Ya, they can go down that path by their lonesome
Whomp says:
well they may not know what we know but it's worth knowing they're closest to you
Whomp says:
and have Council to their back
jb1964 says:
most kewl
jb1964 says:
I would say we have a lot to digest but I think we're pretty clear about everything
Whomp says:
ok so i think we just need to hammer out the beaker values and contigencies if currency and construction don't hit
Whomp says:
xpost
jb1964 says:

Whomp says:
idiot minds think alike
jb1964 says:
The Gongers will rejoice
Whomp says:
tell them....I love you, man :cry:
Whomp says:
do you have wheel?
jb1964 says:
nope
jb1964 says:
hahahaha
Whomp says:
ok i'm just posting what beakers the techs are
Whomp says:
asking someone cuz I'm old school...mapstat and all
Whomp says:
i should get civassist shouldn't I
jb1964 says:

jb1964 says:
I should put it on this comp as well but I've been trying to keep it clean
jb1964 says:
So, we're going to get the save next before you...
jb1964 says:
We'll send the 150g downpayment
Whomp says:
if installments are better let us know

Wotan
Jun 03, 2007, 11:47 PM
OK, we send all techs we are up next turn?

BTW, in the discussion you talked about Galleys full of units sinking. That is not something likely to happen. You shipchain over hazardous waters. So empty Galleys will be left in the ocean/sea tiles. It leads to a slightly higher loss rate since they need to survive the turn prior to recieving the transported units but you never risk any land units sinking with a "drowning" ship.

ThERat
Jun 04, 2007, 12:33 AM
can someone summarize what is going to happen...I am a little confused

we send them all know techs (CoL etc) and they give us cash for that while they now switch off research until we got maths in 4...then they pop huts and hope to get construction and currency (don't they need a remaining tech to set on to pop another tech, like monarchy or so?)

How about the next layer of techs? Are we going to split research? They most likely won't be that fast...

Whomp
Jun 04, 2007, 08:35 AM
Thanks for the clarification Wotan. That makes sense.


Here's what I suggested to GONG...if they miss on currency and construction then they should build Glib (for compensation) so we can both catch up to Free and Council.

If they hit one or both then we'll recalibrate based on the beakers received and renegotiate the Glib (or whether it's built at all). What I need to send him is what the beaker values are for:
Math (though they'll give cash), CoL, MM, wheel, HBR and philo. These are the techs they're missing. Then we need to know the value of currency and construction. Having the base value and the discounted value would be helpful. Can someone post these numbers, please.

I also suggested we start on constuction just in case they miss on the huts. I think the chances are pretty good they'll miss one although I wonder if the stats have been adjusted because we've popped four techs.

Wotan
Jun 04, 2007, 09:12 AM
BASE COSTS: Math: 240, CoL 300, MM 360, Wheel 120, HBR 150, Philo 180

Current costs (according to CA2): Math 192, CoL 270, MM 324, Wheel 108, HBR 135, Philo 162

But the CA2 costs are apparently higher than the in game costs... Math is 180 in game. So maybe we should use base costs as a basis for calculations? Why would all costs for researched techs be 10% lower but Math that we are currently pursuing 20%??? More contacts have eg. The Wheel or CoL? We also know SABER is back MM while Council have it and both of them have The Wheel so diffeneces are odd in CA2?

EDIT: Must have something to do with CA2 not showing who has what? So it only take one team (us) into account when showing values of researched techs. No idea why Math is so miscalculated though...

ThERat
Jun 04, 2007, 10:05 AM
during the last SGOTM, I found that tech costs according to CA2 are always a little off from the real game, though CA2 always indicated lower costs

Whomp
Jun 04, 2007, 11:52 AM
Here's a pm from JB.
'll be on later this evening but wanted to prime the pump, so to speak, before that.

Prince started sending you gold. He didn't have 150g laying around so it's going to come in installments.

We're prepped to pop the huts the turn we get the Techs.

I know you're interested in stuffing Sabre but is there a way we can use them to counter the other block? Making a 3v2 alliance for the time being and saving the Sabre bloodshed for a later date?

Big picture, 3 kills 2, we kill Sabre, we shake hands and wish each other the best.

Whether or not we work out a 3v2 deal with them we need you to string them along w/ discussions, and maybe even a deal or two, to keep them from going after GLib w/ a pre-build. Can you spell out their current techs for us and any assessment you may have as to pre-builds?

We'll make a run at the GLib but we don't have anything pre built that would make it a sure thing. We had a run at pumping out units to cover our shores that took the focus off bigger infrasturcture builds. We think we can still get it but the risk being Sabre might leverage a pre-build and the upside is we'll both be getting more from the Free/Council techs machine if delayed.

Now for the real good news. We have two sources of iron.

Wotan
Jun 04, 2007, 12:01 PM
OK, I will send the techs next turn. If "PrinceM" goes online again and spot he forgot to include the save. ;)

Why do they want to save SABER??? Strange? And two sources of Iron, so what? It is not helping nayone until Navigation or Magnetism. And when oceans are safe landing can happen anywhere so we really need to fight as many as possible before that happens. Not really sure how they think ATM???

Since we are in contact with everyone in a turn or two and GONG is not we can pretty much decide when to "activate" GLib. It is justa question of us withholding the crucial contact until the right moment. Unless Free is devious enough to supply it to limit the effect of GLib, I know I would... ;)

Whomp
Jun 04, 2007, 12:55 PM
I think they're feeling a 3v2 makes sense and getting Saber's free tech. I don't even want sipaphis to see knighthood! :p We may have to come clean at some point.

Just a reminder click "Accept" when sending the techs.
This means we are not sending a proposal, but accepting to just pass the techs over. Then you click Send.

Wotan
Jun 04, 2007, 01:00 PM
OK, thanks for the reminder on trade. That is if I ever get a save to play? Prince forgot to attach it... :(

Tubby Rower
Jun 04, 2007, 01:39 PM
we should tell them when our ships set sail imo. That would show some trust that they wouldn't tell Saber but at the same time we need to give them enough so that they don't promise anything that would unknowingly be false.

Whomp
Jun 04, 2007, 04:50 PM
I tried to deflect the Saber talk as much as possible.
We need to start thinking of excuses on why we're not dealing with Saber. My thoughts are we simply had a better offer but are open to acquiring their MA tech.
jb1964 says:
Well, we're trying to track down the save for you guys but Prince, for the first time in a long time, is MIA from all things internet...
Whomp says:
cool
Whomp says:
btw remind him how to accept a deal
Whomp says:
hit "accept"
jb1964 says:
youstill have an offer hangin' out there?
Whomp says:
no no
Whomp says:
pbems are weird that way
Whomp says:
we have to send it "accept" and "send"
jb1964 says:
I ought to pull up an old turn and just play a round to get the feel fro it.
Whomp says:
the diplo screen is a little strange
Whomp says:
here's what we posted
Whomp says:
click "Accept" when sending the techs.
This means we are not sending a proposal, but accepting to just pass the techs over. Then you click Send.
Whomp says:
btw
Whomp says:
BASE COSTS: Math: 240, CoL 300, MM 360, Wheel 120, HBR 150, Philo 180


jb1964 says:
Hmm, will have to experience this for myself
Whomp says:
CAII costs
Whomp says:
Current costs (according to CA2): Math 192, CoL 270, MM 324, Wheel 108, HBR 135, Philo 162

Whomp says:
those are our costs because of contacts and that will go down since we'll meet free in 1 or 2 turns
jb1964 says:
OK, I'm taking note
jb1964 says:
Did you get my PM?
Whomp says:
i did
Whomp says:
honestly we really don't want to help saber
jb1964 says:
hehe
Whomp says:
sipaphis are not our idea of fun
jb1964 says:
OK, I see that
Whomp says:
the others don't have a killer UU
jb1964 says:
We'll I was hoping we could coax Sabre into sending his Siplopis over towards Free and Concil
jb1964 says:
And then maybe ream him a new one
jb1964 says:
It's cold but it would be interesting
Whomp says:
sipaphis are a game breaker
Whomp says:
i think we can tandem and make a go of it
jb1964 says:
Well, if we leave Sabre helpless will they become the target do jour for the other alliance?
jb1964 says:
Or will they be pulled over to the dark side to deal w/ us?
Whomp says:
Well the others would have to ship chain to do it
Whomp says:
possible for sure
jb1964 says:
3v2 makes me giddy but if Sabre's not part of the equation then we have to deal w/ it... We want to be on the same page here.
jb1964 says:
So please screw w/ their mind so we gan come into some serious techs
Whomp says:

jb1964 says:
Tell 'em you're building the GLib and are just turns away... Anything to set them back a few and I think we'll wrap it up..
Whomp says:
i think they're aware what we have at this point
jb1964 says:
hmmm, then deception is not going to work w/o some selling...
Whomp says:
i think we need to tell them we accepted another deal but would be willing to negotiate their free tech only
jb1964 says:
So, do you have idea, and I doubt you do, if they're inclined to go for the Lib?
Whomp says:
they'll be too far behind
Whomp says:
they still have a lot of research left in the AA
jb1964 says:
they're going to be backwards and screwed
jb1964 says:
they're working on a pre-build now if they're lucky
Whomp says:
well that's why i'd rather string them along
Whomp says:
they're not very generous when i talked to them about their free tech
jb1964 says:
Yes, do whatever you need to drag them out
jb1964 says:
My sister lives in Buffalo Grove, I'll give her to add to the Babe's collection
Whomp says:
You can't add your sister...it's illegal because we can't gawk at sisters...
jb1964 says:
OK, man code thingy
jb1964 says:
she's cute but she's a royal pain in everyone's ass
Whomp says:
hehe
jb1964 says:
hay, I have to run to a soccer try-out
Whomp says:
ok me too

Whomp
Jun 08, 2007, 11:07 AM
From JB...We'll finish maths on turn 100, correct?
Eeesh on the map....
So, are ya'll willing to provide the map?

If so, what's the price?

Lastly, what turn are you going to finish Math?

Wotan
Jun 08, 2007, 11:14 AM
That post also showed up in the turn tracker!!!!!!!!!

This is really bad... Not only does it reveal our position in the tech race it shows we are quite cosy with GONG. Sorry but unbelievable screwup I guess. And with absolutely no way of recovering from it.... even you edit it fast it will have been sent as a notification to everyone subscribing to the thread. And tell GONG we are not really keen on giving them the map, I guess. Sigh..... How was this possible, it must be a bug in CFC forum for sure. You cannot have posted it in two threads??????

Whomp
Jun 08, 2007, 11:36 AM
I had two windows open trying to see what turn we were on. I'm really sorry everyone. :(
It's deleted...

Wotan
Jun 08, 2007, 11:44 AM
Human error, that is probably more OK. Would have been absolutely disastrous if it was a bug.

But on second thought, am i correct in assuming that a post goes into every thread you are actively looking at (in different windows). That is still a bug in my book.

BCLG100
Jun 08, 2007, 11:48 AM
From memory not all the post shows up just the first line or so, if so it could just be a normal diplo talk, an error yes but hopefully shouldnt be too costly.

edit= i dont know what browser whomp is using but what i assume he meant was he just read one thread and went to the quick reply of another thread without noticing what it was, not that one post gets posted in every browser.

Whomp
Jun 08, 2007, 12:15 PM
I spoke with xyzy and Gen W and they have agreed to not share the info in the thread. Sorry everyone.

As BC said I posted in the wrong thread because I had too many open including the turntracker.

gmaharriet
Jun 08, 2007, 03:52 PM
As BC said I posted in the wrong thread because I had too many open including the turntracker.

I wonder if that's what happened to Provo in the last MTDG? :mischief: Let's hope xyzy and Gen W have as much integrity as you did in that game.

Lova ya, Whomper! :pat:

Wotan
Jun 09, 2007, 06:38 AM
I would really like it if someone in the diplo crew could make some enquiries into the current situation in GONG, are there differing opinion on the situation and ppl not happy with "allying" with us? Else I have little understanding why they cannot move the game ahead. The plan is perfectly clear and easy to implement at least for the next few turns. either they get us Construction/Currency or they don't. In which case we might have to discuss how to go about getting to MA. BTW, I sue hope they set research to Currency when starting to pop the first GH, so the first tech will be Construction since it is the most expensive. maybe give them a hint about thsi since they seem to have problems understanding the game... :P

Whomp
Jun 10, 2007, 07:46 PM
The latest from the Gong.
Hello again,

Read our thread and the thought came to me that what these fellows want is an idea of where the other shores lie and about zero interest in your island.

Ask your team about the chances, and value, of your world map w/o any Babe teritory or boarders. And if there are islands you would like to populate before we do just make your blot a bit bigger and oddly shaped or make the ownership of those islands "off limits" as a condition of any deal you're seeking.

I put out some questions re: the popping of techs to the team and will chack back later as to their ideas.

Re: The Great Lib... someone suggested that it wasn't that important that we now have a good trading partner. And also commented that the only likely competition for TGL was Sabre, and furthermore, if Sabre did get it that you guys could take it by force. I'm about 1000% certain that Sabre would burn it to the ground before allowing you to take it.

I'm still advocating a stronger run to TGL but the debate rages on.

BCLG100
Jun 10, 2007, 08:01 PM
Well they could always not trade with us and then we could leave them to get battered by either us or free+council.

Wotan
Jun 10, 2007, 10:52 PM
I would say it is a bit late to start putting questions about the popping of GHs now. We have already delivered 20 turns of research to them, 5 techs. Math has sort of been covered by the gold shipments so that could be left out of the equations.

Make sure to drive home the importance of the GlLib if we are to have any chance of catching up with FREE/Council. Them investing in it is also a good bargain for them to make up for the 12 turns of tech research we give them (if they get both Constr/Currency)

We could maybe give them general directions in text. We have already said FREE is on their other side. What is needed is to add Council further west and Saber on our other side. Then add that is how they are reachable through sea/coastal tiles with some safety. And finally explain how each have the four others in a circle around you. So SABER is to their SE and Council to their NW. I am getting this right I hope? We are to their NE and FREE to their SW.

Robi D
Jun 11, 2007, 02:02 AM
I do recall Whomp and myself during talks pointing out to them that Free and Council were working together and had reached MA's.

The plan has been talked about and explained to them in other chats and messages so why are they not getting it?

BCLG100
Jun 11, 2007, 05:30 AM
Cos there being normal diplomats and trying to get more for nothing, just the difference is when we do it no-one else realises.

Wotan
Jun 11, 2007, 12:11 PM
The current turn player for GONG seems to be a real prick. He just post a "will play tomorrow" in the turn tracker. Not even a shread of a question if it is OK to get an extension. Someone try getting them to shape up please. If we are to cooperate with them I would think they work according to plans agreed upon. How on earth they need an extension now? We are both waiting for us to finish Maths, then next turn they pop the GHs. The only thing they need to do this turn is make sure the two Settlers are in position. And they need an extension. Get a reason for this from them. are they going to be obstructive now? We have already delivered our part of the deal, any attempt to back off and renegotiate is absolutely out of the question, let them know this!!!!! So this extension should be reagarded as an unfriendly action. What else than discussing teh already agreed upon deal can there be? Get talking. And we should really start taking our time too. I see no reason trying to make room to play ASAP all the time. From now on I will play when I have a slot open in my calender...

EDIT: really fuming now. The game is moving into absurd lead times now. It is 2 days since GONG last played a turn. They need an extension..... amazingly bad form considering the plans we have agreed upon should really not require anything but just playing and submitting. I would suggest we only talk to the members of their team we made to deal with and they make sure their team dfeliver what is agreed on. Igrnore their "new" management since they seem utterly incapable of following such a simple plan.
i would have had plenty of spare time to play this evening, tomorrow will require me to make adjustments in my schedule. And it is the first turn out of anarchy so a lot of things about to move on according to plans that are a bit complicated to explain should someone else play the turn. But then again why bother if it takes a day before we play our turn, no other team seem to bother about playing ASAP.

BCLG100
Jun 11, 2007, 12:35 PM
The only contact i have in gong is cane but if he comes on later i'll have a word.

Whomp
Jun 11, 2007, 12:41 PM
I sent JB a pm too.

Wotan
Jun 11, 2007, 12:46 PM
It is just a bit worrying that we are so exposed, having gifted a lot of techs and research turns to them with only promises in return so far. Now they need time to do what? Make up their mind if they are going to screw us?

Whomp
Jun 11, 2007, 12:48 PM
It seems Rick is their new turnplayer and I've noticed his posts in the past show he's not a native speaker.
JB,
What's going on with your turnplayer? It seems a little odd that he'd delay the game this way. Just curious if everything's ok.
W

I think I noticed Rick's delay message moments after he posted it. I'm having trouble concentrating the Monday after a good fishing weekend. Anyway, he's been part of the team since the beginning but has only recently become active. I don't really know him at all. He might be a good turnplayer but his comments in our threads are a bit on the "without tact" side. It's just a first impression.

Anyway, I'm interested in how Daghie, Bugs and others will react to his delay. He'll probably get a :nono: .No probs but his post was really nonchalant like whenever I get to it. We want to get out of this stupid anarchy stuff! :p

Vind2
Jun 11, 2007, 01:26 PM
Just a question, but is giving map locations in text against the rules?

BCLG100
Jun 11, 2007, 02:13 PM
No its completly fine, you can even do it in grid squares from memory

Wotan
Jun 11, 2007, 05:13 PM
What assurances do we have they intend to stick to our agreement? This new turn player seems to be a bit thick and arrogant on top of that? Will he be able to carry out the GH popping without mistakes? I am very surprised they changed turn player in the middle of executing a pretty intricate plan involving another team. It was question of three or four turns, surely an intelligent solution would be to let the players that played while setting up the deal follow it through????

We'll see when the turn arrives if we should really gift math? Or maybe wait until we have confirmation their Settlers are in position. Playing ASAP is obviously not a priority in any team but ours so why bother trying to move the game forward. We can as well take our time making sure everything is done according to the agreement.

ThERat
Jun 11, 2007, 06:38 PM
I agree I was quite irritated as well about that message. I think we should wait until they confirm to us that their settlers are in position before we gift maths to them...take your time, Wotan

Whomp
Jun 11, 2007, 08:47 PM
From JB. Sounds like they're ready.btw do you know if your settlers in place to pop right away?
Yep, and they're getting bored.
:p
Rick got the save and opened it up. I thought we were getting Math this turn but I guess it's next.
Rick didn't ask for anyone else to take the set and can't play this evening. A little strange given the very orderly playing we've been seeing. However, we'll make sure we don't have a repeat.

Nothing to report back on TGL building, the vote gathering is still going on. A few of my comrads think I'm sharing too much info, and maybe I am, however, I watched us in the last game have to deal w/ very slow, cryptic negotiations while our death was drawing near w/ the constant, steady cranking of turns.

I'm not going to dick around w/ word games in order to squeeze a lopsided deal while Rome burns.

Cubbies are 5-5 in the last 10. They still suck and have been bumped to 3rd in a rather sad division.

Wotan
Jun 11, 2007, 11:37 PM
How difficult is it to understand the "we get math next turn and gift it to you" They play before us so I would have thought it pretty obvious they would not have it before we play our "next turn"????

BTW, I am pretty annoyed with the "A few of my comrads think I'm sharing too much info". Ungrateful lot I would say. They give too much? Where are the proportions? We save them 20 turns of research and let them have a 80-90 gold discount on Maths by paying 150 or so gold for it. And they have the bizzare idea they give too much. That is up there among the most stupid arguments I have ever heard in the Civ3 community. The map is absolutely out of the question now. We have already given them way too much for what we get unless the GLib should give us a return on our investment. It is a really risky investment with big risks, such an investment need a big upside with such low odds. If they reneg on the GLib I am not sure how we should react then it is such a definite onsidedness to this deal it just is a waste of our energy to keep them in the game. Stupid lot! We are saving them 20 turns of research that is the main thing in this. there is no other trading partner for them. Does anyone on their team realise we are just throwing stuff their way to try to get them into a position where they are at least some force to be reconed with? We would have been in MA without their help in roughly 8 turns from now. Research Currency and pop "their" GH for a 40% chance at Construction. So it is still 12-14 turns of research time in their favour even if they get both the techs. They better get the GLib and our seed money investing in their current boost cover all techs they get from it. Not a question of us paying for them...

Oh well when he eventually post the turn I have no intention of adjusting my schedule anymore I'll play when I have an opportunity, might be today might be tomorrow. So much easier when there is no reason to factor in considerations for others into ones schedule.

Robi D
Jun 12, 2007, 01:28 AM
I don't see how we have given the impression of playing word games.

We have been completely upfront about everything. We gave then how many techs to catch up in return for the possibility of getting a couple back. We pointed out why TGL is nessasary yet they stall, debate and seem to be looking for something more from the deal.

Wotan's annoyed, i'm irate at this point

Wotan
Jun 12, 2007, 11:58 AM
I've had i with this Rick on GONG, I would really suggest we ask them to make sure he is nowhere near any saves as a condition for any deals. He is not only taking 40 hrs to play a straight forward turn. It is one thing if the team need an extention but not that "HE" just takes it without asking. Now he fails to send the save. there is no save on G-mail and I am not goibng to post in the Turn Tracker since I will not be my normal "Mr. Nice Guy" if I do. ;)

So could someone oplease use this incident to talk to ppl on that team about the constant mess since he started playing the turns.

EDIT: Thanks Tubby for your rather neutral post. I started writing one but feared ppl with heartconditions might be affected by my draft.

Tubby Rower
Jun 12, 2007, 12:02 PM
I did spike it up a bit after seeing your post here. Stupidity is fine, but constant dolt-ness should be looked into. :lol:

Wotan
Jun 12, 2007, 12:05 PM
I did spike it up a bit after seeing your post here. Stupidity is fine, but constant dolt-ness should be looked into. :lol:

Yes, noticed your EDIT... Much nicer than my first draft... ;)
EDIT: He is still online but obviously not noticing he has not sent the save. Any of your contacts on GONG online Tubby? If they could tell him?

Whomp
Jun 12, 2007, 12:22 PM
I sent a pm to JB earlier and he's online right now.

Kickbooti
Jun 12, 2007, 01:10 PM
Wotan and Tubby, you guys are the best. You definately but the 'B' in 'subtle.' :lol:

Remind me to keep you two away from diplomatic bags. You would be trying to fit the horse's head into it ala The Godfather.

I love you guys man :cry:

;)

Wotan
Jun 12, 2007, 02:01 PM
The turn arrived just now. HAve opened it and will look at the situation a bit and check if there is anything we need to discuss

Wotan
Jun 13, 2007, 11:04 PM
From Killercane: (We had every reason in the world to worry about Rick's ability to do it properly...)

Unfortunately, we did not have settlers by the huts to pop them this turn and the problem is compounded by the fact that only one could be put into position this turn. I apologize and take full responsibility for the problem (despite the fact that I put HAVE SETTLERS BY THE HUTS FOR WHEN WE GET MATH FROM BABE in freaking bold letters). The problem will be resolved from now on.

EDIT: This was fun news... Do we A: go for Currency ourselves? It is just 3 turns and 300+ gold or B: stop and pray? My vote at this time is to go for Currency and just pary a bit for them to get Construction.

ThERat
Jun 14, 2007, 12:56 AM
:wallbash: I find it pretty outrageous from this guy called Rick...imagine I would take over from Wotan (which I did once only) and simply ignore the instructions...I wouldn't wonder to be thrown out of the team for such an incident...stupid now for us and the rest of their team...why did they let this guy make turnsets? Someone could have checked their saves as well...

anyway, I think we should get currency in 3 and hope at least they pop construction

Wotan
Jun 14, 2007, 01:19 AM
I actually laughed out loud when reading Killercane's PM. Even startled my wife with the reaction, before 7am, sort of instantly making her (and me ) wide awake instead of the normal morning "blur".

Don't be too hard on yourself, the problem when handing over in a MTDG comparing to a SGOTM is that if you play a single turn any deviations from the plans in place are so much more obvious. In a SGOTM they are not as noticible when we look at the next save 10 or so turns later. In the MTDG they are extremely obvious since every turn is saved and uploaded. Not that hand overs are inpossible, it is just a question of giving very detailed descriptions of what is going on everywhere. And that could be a huge undertaking if only doing it for a turn. For longer periods I guess it is worth it but when a single location could be planned to use tiles in a specific pattern exchanging tiles with other locations over several turns with different usage almost each turn, it do put a strain on hand overs.

I have the benefit of being able to control the process since I have played for a long period now. So anyone else playing a turn now would be in a very disadvantaged position and probably mistakes will happen. But that is as much the previous player's responsibility as the new player's. It is simply a question of making a controlled hand over. e.g. I have looked at the save now and Hef's, FP town and a third town is going to switch usage of hills for a turn to make sure we have extra food in Hef's, FP just get 10 spt and 2 fpt, but the third town (NW of FP town) is going for 4 spt for a single turn and 2 fpt but be back at 2 spt and 4 fpt the next two turn to finish the Barracks when it grows to size 3 that turn benefiting from a citizen being placed on aforest on growth and adding the remaining shields needed. That is just one example of the MMing going on... ;)

Robi D
Jun 14, 2007, 02:49 AM
Having had experience playing with rick i can say he is a tool.
He may well be a good player but he doesn't seem to grasp the concept of TEAM play and doing things as the TEAM wants to do. He tends to go off and do his own thing regardless.

Wotan
Jun 14, 2007, 04:19 AM
Will wait another couple of hours to post so our NA friends get an opportunity to check in "this morning". But Currency in three seems like the best option.

Tubby Rower
Jun 14, 2007, 04:25 AM
meh... screw Gong go ahead and go for Currency. That was going to be the second tech that they got anyway correct.

If they do get Construction, then we could gift Currency and possible get a more expensive tech. (I think Monarchy is next). Monarchy wouldn't be too bad. we might need it if things turn sour in the field.

Wotan
Jun 14, 2007, 04:51 AM
OK, have uploaded the turn now. Nothing much to report. Two settlers finishing next turn. Time to fill the open spaces on our own island now I guess. Currency in three.

Our Diplomats; please make sure we tell GONG about this so they do not go for Currency. they are already in Monarchy so if anything else than Currency is open it would be Republic. If they pop the GH in two turns time and get Currency we could still get it and at least save one turn on the first MA tech. What annoys me now is they might cost us 3 turns (and 300+ beakers) of research on an MA tech if they get both remaining techs.

BTW, should we trade republic to them, if we want Monarchy it could be an idea?

DaveShack
Jun 14, 2007, 08:49 AM
Being slapped around about slow turns in the PBEMs got me interested in the game again, so... ;)

When I looked at the save, it looked to me like GONG got construction but didn't send it to us. Don't know if there is a technical issue with sending it on the same turn as received like there is in Civ4, or if CA2 shows the tech they will have beginning of next turn.

What about trading something with SABER, before killing them? I think I saw that they have currency and don't have several fairly innocuous techs that we do have.

Wotan
Jun 14, 2007, 09:14 AM
Can't be that they have Construction, the research cost is the same this turn as it would have been last turn; 450 beakers. It suggest three teams have it though but that would be SABER/FREE/Council. GONG recieved Math last turn so they could not be one of them.

BTW, how can you see what comeone else have? My CA2 does not show any other teams assets and it also miscalculate the tech costs.

I would not trade with SABER even if we would save 200 beakers or so on Currency. We just don't want to help them get nearer MA. It is still 15+ turns until we attack and they miss roughly 4 techs to reach it. They shoudl be able to run at 4 turns per tech so it is a close call even if we do not trade. If we do they will definitely be in MA well ahead of us landing and we simply can't afford to help them. If they reach it, let's pray they do not recieve Feudalism...

Whomp
Jun 14, 2007, 12:30 PM
Sorry I missed all the fireworks but I was out of town yesterday and part of today. I think we should go for currency since I'd rather leave Saber in the dust. I'm glad GONG came to their senses...Killercane was the right turnplayer for them from the beginning.

Whomp
Jun 14, 2007, 12:35 PM
Here's for everyone's amusement.Good new, bad news good news.

Killercane took the save to play turn 100.

He found things in disorder as well as settlers NOT IT PLACE to pop the huts. I can't tell you how clear we've made this and I have assurances in writing that explicitly told me the settlers were ready!

We still have high hopes for hut production.

Kane's message to Rick [editted]...

"All in all it looks pretty disappointing. I vote that Rick should be impeached. Sorry man, but if you cant take the time to do things right then you shouldnt be taking the turns. Its not that a city is rioting, that happens every game when you forget something, its the fact that not having settlers in place delays 2 turns for no real reason and hurts our reputation with the other team. Our ducks need to be in order. It was very clear how important this was, and the settlers were easily available to be put into place 2 turns ago."

My sincere apologies.

jb
thanks for the info jb, got a PM from Killer earlier today. Really surprised Rick was so "less than bright" moving a couple of Settlers seems to be an easy task... But I feel confident you will sort things out quickly with a player like Killer at the helm. For your info we will have currency in three turns, we were worried Rick would mess things up so fortunately made arrangemenst to be able to quickly finish it if any problems arose. So just make sure we get Construction. ;) If you get both, so much better and we will unfortunately have invested a couple of hundred bearkers into Currency but better shave the final turn or so off it anyway. I will leave it to our diplo's to sort things out, I might not be the smoothest elephant in a chinashop so...

Wotan[/QUOTE]

Vind2
Jun 14, 2007, 01:40 PM
Kinda reminds me of myself in SGs :blush:

DaveShack
Jun 14, 2007, 05:57 PM
Don't know on the CA2 question, I'll look again tonight.

Wotan
Jun 16, 2007, 03:37 PM
Getting worried there is still unrest in the GONG camp? 20 hours and ticking on a weekend with a situation the "Killer" described as straightforward.

BCLG100
Jun 16, 2007, 04:28 PM
I do find weekends are a slow time for civ, especially as killer has gone away for a week. There probably working out who can play the save.

Whomp
Jun 16, 2007, 05:23 PM
Killercane got married today and will be gone a week. JB told me that Daghdha will be taking the reins for the time being. Daghie a solid player and will get things straight.

BCLG100
Jun 16, 2007, 05:28 PM
I completly forgot he was getting married now! he even told me about it and i remembered the month but then june just crept up on me like pete townshed in a nursery!

Wotan
Jun 17, 2007, 04:28 AM
So far Daghi seems to be doing a rotten job at getting the game moving. It seems not to be as straightforward as we were given the impression it was from Killer. Or they are just bickering within the team? If so I would have hoped the mods would enter the scene and try to get them inline. I deeply regret the deal we made with them now. We should have left them on their own, sent a Settler to their resource island and hopefully enter the MA on our own in a few turns time. By setting up ships we should have been able to pop the hut in three turns time or so. And not give away so much for only stupidity in return.

Wotan
Jun 17, 2007, 06:53 AM
Have played the save. they failed to get Construction from the first GH. Got 50 gold and gave us 25. I would rather we get what comes from GLib than a measly 25 gold. talk to them and make them understand this is not sharing... ;) We are still up 20 turns of research. In a few turns we can give them Currency and add anotehr 4 turns. I guess we want as many turns of research from them in exchange not 25 gold from a GH.

Whomp
Jun 19, 2007, 07:46 AM
Just a note to catch up...

Rick quit.
Cane's on his honeymoon.
Prince is having what appear to be some serious problems in RL.

Daghie's trying to pick up the TP slack and as you've seen we popped 50g from the hut which he decided of his own accord to share half with you. We think it was a good call.

The next turnset's already around to us, I think the other are fast playing to keep the game pace faster than the diplo pace, and Daghie will play it in about 8 hours.

I would appreciate some feedback on the following topics:
Maps: I don't think it's that big of a deal but this conversation seems to have gone dead.
Sabre: I would like a status on their techs and how you view them in regards to an attampt at the GLib. Have you been able to trade with them to keep them off guard?
Council/Free: What kind of diplomacy have you been getting from them? Silence?
I guess no surprise on Rick.
On the issue of maps I'd like to counter how we get paid for the 5 techs (20 turns) worth of research? With currency it will be more like 24-25 turns. Before we give them a map I think we should hammer out how much in cash these techs are worth.

If they miss construction it's plain to me that we can get construction faster than they can. Should we tell them to run cash and give us a bigger percentage versus what they keep? I think we should also make them aware that we had a better trading opportunity with Saber than GONG but felt this was in the better interest of both teams.

I'm not sure where we're at on techs versus Saber. I think once we hammer out details on how we'll be compensated we should make them aware of our plans to whack Saber.

There's not much to discuss with Free and Council.

Wotan
Jun 19, 2007, 08:35 AM
At this point in time we have actually gotten diddlysquat from GONG, They have given us gold for Maths but at a discount compared to if they researched it alone. So even that deal in the deal was to their advantage.

As you also state the big issue is the turns of research we have given them. The only way they might even come close to even this out is if they get the GLib and we postpone their edu until we get a few extra techs from it. We have invested heavily into their catching up so a deal just looking at gold/beakers is a no-no. We need a big premium on our investment. We really need to focus on two things, early turns are more valuable than later turns from the growth in all team economies to the leverage of it is not to be comapring a MA tech at 1200 beakers or the like to all the techs we have given them. Tech value is not a good measure at this stage. they have also disrupted our game by a mile from stupid gameplay within their team. that too should be considered. And seed money investments like ours require bigger payoffs than IPO investments... Risk is higher with the uncertainty re. GLib so if we get lucky and score a lot of techs they are still up.

So the only reasonable deal at this time would be, if the get the GLib we get all techs they gain free for our gifts so far. No beaker/gold tallying in this case, it is not an acceptable solution. If they don't get it I have no idea how they are to compensate us for the turns they have saved. They have a huge population from the Pyramids so maybe they can research fast enough to keep up with us in the MA? Don't know. So a preliminary solution would be we go for Feudalism/Mono together. As soon as they get the GLib we can bet on FREE making sure they meet both FREE/Council to limit the techs gained. But hopefully we will gain a few.

Map I would suggest holding off on until they have paid us. A little carrot for them to look forward to when they have gifted us the techs from the GLib. So make sure they understand talking about maps at this point with their terrible performance is absolutely out of the question. We could maybe tell them about the four strips of coastal/sea tiles between the team islands? And that the one in SE and NE connect to us and the SW/NW connect to FREE (I think). So they are aware from which direction to prepare for an attack from FREE.

SABER, should we just tell them S. is still missing several techs in the AA?

And we have more or less been met with silence from FREE/Council.

Whomp
Jun 19, 2007, 09:20 AM
We'll need to gift them contact at the point Glib is finished. Would it also lower their tech cost on mono or feud if we gave them contact to Free and Council?

I would like to give them Free's coordinates as a teaser to a full map.

I think we should use a few things in the pm.

Hi JB,
I think the most reasonable deal at this time would be, if you get the GLib and we get all techs you gain free for our gifts so far. We'd rather not bankrupt you by requesting cash since we'll still need to put research on full steam in the MA's.

If they don't get GLib I have no idea how you'll to compensate us for the turns but it's a risk we need to take.

We will finish currency in two turns. Cross your fingers that construction comes in this turn! A preliminary MA solution would be we both go for Feudalism/Mono together.

We haven't traded with Saber since we're afraid of accelerating their tech pace. They're still a few techs behind in the AA and we'd prefer to keep it that way. We've offered to trade for their MA free tech which they haven't responded to. Our contact with Council and Free has been sparse. With the lack of trading opportunities there's not much to say.

Whomper


Thoughts?

Wotan
Jun 19, 2007, 09:41 AM
I would actually talk to them about keeping them in isolation for a while. If we gift right away they will only get what FREE/Council have at that time. By waiting we will hopefully be able to bag a few extra techs. So I cannot see why they would want to have the contacts when the GLib finish? I would rather think FREE/Council would make every effort trying to limit their gains. Why should we (GONG/BABE) help them by sharing the contacts?

FREE is the main threat to GONG, giving them an idea of how they can be reached by fFREE would be a good thing I guess.

Tubby Rower
Jun 19, 2007, 09:45 AM
well they are taking a significant risk not meeting people just as we are taking a significant risk gifting them a ton of stuff in hopes that they complete the GLib. I think that if we are upfront and explain the big picture they will be on-board.

Or we could tell them that they will be next after SABER if they don't comply. It'll either be a win-win or a win-lose... either way we'll be the ones before the hyphens. :D

Wotan
Jun 19, 2007, 09:47 AM
I think it is a good thing we are not the diplo's Tubby...

Or we could tell them that they will be next after SABER if they don't comply

:lol:

Tubby Rower
Jun 19, 2007, 10:05 AM
I'm excellent at diplo... Everyone at the table agrees after I'm finished. Mainly because everyone else left to make war plans against me :p

Whomp
Jun 19, 2007, 10:10 AM
I guess it boils down to when they'll finish GLib. If it's reasonably soon the lack of contact makes sense. If it's 20+ turns away wouldn't it lower their tech cost a fair amount by having Council/Free contact?

If we did give contact we'd need to have a stipulation that we're exclusive for a long time. No trading contacts, map knowledge and any tech trades need to be discussed.

ThERat
Jun 19, 2007, 10:18 AM
I don't have a good feeling about that team...Gong seems to be such a mess to me

I would tell them that they could very possibly the first victim of a Free/Council strike. They better get the GLib going, who knows whether that has actually been started :crazyeye:

Tubby Rower
Jun 19, 2007, 11:15 AM
well they might not have realized that anarchy still needs organization. It's just that we use the clear tape instead of the red tape :lol:

Whomp
Jun 19, 2007, 03:36 PM
Here's how I responded to JB.
Hi JB,
I think the most reasonable deal at this time would be, if you get the GLib and we get all techs you gain free for our gifts so far. We'd rather not bankrupt you by requesting cash for the techs we've given since we'll still need to put research on full steam in the MA's.

If you don't get GLib I have no idea how you'll to compensate us for the turns but it's a risk we both need to take.

We will finish currency in two turns. Cross your fingers that construction comes in this turn! If it doesn't we need to figure whether you can finish faster or us after we finish currency. A preliminary MA solution would be we both go for Feudalism/Mono together.

We haven't traded with Saber since we're afraid of accelerating their tech pace. They're still a few techs behind in the AA and we'd prefer to keep it that way. We've offered to trade for their MA free tech which they haven't responded to. Our contact with Council and Free has been sparse. With the lack of trading opportunities there's not much to say.

We'll consider maps after we get confirmation that you're on board with a long term plan. We could consider some verbal suggestions.

Whomper

Wotan
Jun 19, 2007, 03:53 PM
New turn in and played. We have Construction. And will have Currency next turn.

Whomp
Jun 19, 2007, 06:17 PM
OK here's the conversation with JB. I think they already kicked off their GA when they got pyramids btw.
jb1964 says:
jb1964 says:
hey, diving running long and I'm here for about another 20 minutes
jb1964 says:
Us Mono, you Feud, sounds good
Whomp says:
yeah that way you can still build GS
Whomp says:
and then let us know if you want feud
jb1964 says:
Sabre should be running for the GLib and so are we
Whomp says:
they're way behind in techs
Whomp says:
so they may have to
jb1964 says:
That's why they'll likely be building it

Then I throw out a trial ballon...
Whomp says:
maybe we should whack them
jb1964 says:
Whacking is good
jb1964 says:
Seriously, if you have the capacity to give them a spanking then I would be all for it to assure us the GLib and the spoils
Whomp says:
We may have to think about that

Talk about Glib
Whomp says:
do you have an approximate timeframe on Glib?
jb1964 says:
Once Council/Free get to galleons your Lighthouse advantage is gone
jb1964 says:
turn 111
Whomp says:
yes so we figure they're beelining there
Whomp says:
i'd think caravels instead of galleons though...i think
jb1964 says:
Double checked, prior to passing to you we're 10 turns away.
Whomp says:
ok that's huge

Discussion of contact...
Whomp says:
if we wait to give you contact with council and free we may get more techs
Whomp says:
so once it's finished we can give you contact instead of now
jb1964 says:
yes, that's the reward part of that gamble that I was for and now am totally sweating
jb1964 says:
total agreement

Whomp says:
well maybe we need to rattle saber to get them off that gig
jb1964 says:
And if they bump into us we'll let you know

On to maps...
Whomp says:
OK on maps
jb1964 says:
If you do pelase take pictures of teh carnage.
jb1964 says:
OK? or talk about maps?
Whomp says:
I think the concern was whether we were getting duped
jb1964 says:
pfft
Whomp says:
Mostly the Rick debacle
jb1964 says:
Sorry, I think we're all a bit one-dimensional here
Whomp says:
I think people will be appeased by this conversation
jb1964 says:
I would love to set something down that's elaborate and clever, and maybe we could pull it off if needed, but at the moment we're very much tied to your success.

jb1964 says:
And by we I mean you and us
Whomp says:
We've had a good plan so far
jb1964 says:
Ya, no reason to friggin' tank it
Whomp says:
We should decide whether we're willing to partner till the other three are gone
jb1964 says:
So what did you think of Daghie's 25g's
Whomp says:
or 2 or 1?
Whomp says:
that was very nice
jb1964 says:
He thinks like me
jb1964 says:
I felt like horseshit
Whomp says:
Don't
Whomp says:
It's hard because we both need to explain how this works to our team
Whomp says:
without people feeling like they're getting the shaft

Recommended tabling long term discussion
jb1964 says:
If you want a partnership that's solid through the ages I'm willing to bet the team, Me and Daghie at the moment, are open to that
Whomp says:
ok
Whomp says:
I'm not adverse to saying a certain time or number of teams left or whatever. The key is we need to at least beeline to galleons and cavs
Whomp says:
maybe even steam
jb1964 says:
got dumped
Whomp says:
hehe
jb1964 says:
I wish daghie was on...
Whomp says:
He gets up early in the morning
jb1964 says:
he and others are much better w/ long term strat
Whomp says:
it's ok think about where we would terminate
Whomp says:
my objective would be mano a mano
Whomp says:
that may not work for you though
jb1964 says:
No, that would be just fine
Whomp says:
table it
jb1964 says:
And I we should collaborate until it's just us

JB thinking...engineers hehe...
jb1964 says:
Let me "talk" my way thru this
jb1964 says:
OK, Sabre is only a minor distraction and can be a pain in the ass if they get to GLib first
jb1964 says:
the real power is the Free/Counci alliance
Whomp says:
Yep
jb1964 says:
If we're not united, and armed they'll find a way to crack us one at a time
Whomp says:
We're agreed on that
jb1964 says:
Resources are going to play a major role
Whomp says:
Rik has not made it easy
Whomp says:
My guess is we will be gifting resources to each other
Whomp says:
salt or coal may be scarce...just a thought
jb1964 says:
certainly, I would like to find that the Council/Free alliance has f'ed up resource mix
jb1964 says:
however, we can't count on that and actually should plan for the opposite
Whomp says:
No doubt
jb1964 says:
Well, fate brouhgt the Babes and Gonger together and let's take it to the tribes to last until it's just us two.
Whomp says:

jb1964 says:
It's going to be hard as hell later on to actually make a landing
Whomp says:
you'd think
Whomp says:
marines may be more important than we thinkjb1964 says:
Ok, that must have been a sign because now I do need to leave for the meet. It's going to be a late night.
Whomp says:
ok
Whomp says:
i'll be here if you're around
Whomp says:
bachelor for the week
Whomp says:

Whomp says:
or
Whomp says:

Whomp says:
depending on the subject
jb1964 says:
Why's the wife outta town? Or are you on the road?
Whomp says:
She's with family in Cal
Whomp says:
school's out so off she goes
jb1964 says:
My wife used to do that when the kids were yonger
jb1964 says:
Hey, in the middle of next week I'm off w/ da wife to celebrate our 20th
Whomp says:
nice!
jb1964 says:
So I'll turn the reigns over to Daghie or Bugs or whomever
jb1964 says:
alright, gone

ThERat
Jun 19, 2007, 07:35 PM
I like the sound of this conversation I have to say...but 10 turns for GLib is very long...what do we do if we capture Sabre's Glib later on?
Gift that city to Gong? For a 2 turns? Would that be possible?

Whomp
Jun 19, 2007, 08:25 PM
They'd abandon it before giving it up to anyone.

ThERat
Jun 19, 2007, 08:57 PM
well, what ifwe can take over the whole core in 1 turn? With CxxC spacing that should be possible...and do you think they would abandon the city the moment we drop troops?

Whomp
Jun 19, 2007, 09:18 PM
I think they'd abandon it the moment they knew we'd get it. The upside to all this is if Saber's building it they're not building anything else in a big city. Wotan can you check the top 5 cities next turn. I'd be interested how big their capital is.

Wotan
Jun 20, 2007, 01:27 AM
SABER capital is size 7. We will be in position to attack it on the second turn after landing. So they will be more or less ina position to give up if they raze their capital so soon after our landing.

Robi D
Jun 20, 2007, 02:30 AM
I don't see why Saber would be building the GL, because they only know council so they wouldn't get any techs from it.

gmaharriet
Jun 20, 2007, 04:55 AM
they only know council so they wouldn't get any techs from it.

But they know us too. It might not catch them up with Council, but it would sure catch them up with us.

Tubby Rower
Jun 20, 2007, 05:00 AM
well that's the blessing that is the GLib. once you meet the other teams, you get that infamous tech elevator. I've seen somewhere that someone avoided contact somehow and managed to ride a tech elevator to near modern age.

Whomp
Jun 20, 2007, 02:39 PM
Maybe we should give them a view of the map towards Free so they know where to defend (just in case)?

FREE is NW of us and Wotan is thinking Kuningas might be planning a galley ship chain attack w knights. That would be to our N coast.
Babes will be sending Currency any turn and will then start Feud while we go Mono.

:eek:

How real of threat is this.

They way I see it the C/F axis should already have Chivalry and is likely to already be sitting on a stash of knights.

I'm a bit spooked. But then again it doesn't take much to get me rattled.

BTW, the team is all for an agreement that pits the two of us against each other at the end of time. I hope that that comes to pass.

ThERat
Jun 20, 2007, 07:07 PM
They way I see it the C/F axis should already have Chivalry and is likely to already be sitting on a stash of knights.I really doubt that. knights are expensive. We struggle to get enough MW's to attack Sabre. I don't think they could be that advanced. Of course, it's better to have a good defense in the probable landing area.

Wotan
Jun 21, 2007, 12:43 AM
Have sent a map to GONG with one of the passages and a description of the other one. And that FREE is "both" NW and SW.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/28942/GONGmap1.JPG

Tubby Rower
Jun 21, 2007, 05:00 AM
hopefully it was just a text map... or does MM unlock map trading?

Wotan
Jun 21, 2007, 05:06 AM
?. I sent the picture "map" as seen in my post. Sorry if it was a bit unclear as to what had been done.

Tubby Rower
Jun 21, 2007, 05:07 AM
is map trading available in game yet? if not then we violated a rule.

Robi D
Jun 21, 2007, 06:07 AM
map trading is allowed once you can trade maps in the game. Which we have been able to since map making. So no problems there ;)

Tubby Rower
Jun 21, 2007, 06:09 AM
ok... just making sure. I couldn't remember if MM or navigation was the requirement. sorry to sound the alarm falsely.




oh look over there a wolf!!!

Whomp
Jun 21, 2007, 07:28 AM
Here's a pm from JB. I'm pretty concerned about this Glib build becauase iirc they haven't hidden it so Saber knows they're going for it. The good news is they're doing it in a GA so that should give them a little boost relative to Saber. I don't think the cash is nearly as important as turning off research for gold because we'd be doubly screwed if they don't get it. Thoughts?
Most honorable Babes,

Just an update on the GLib timing. We'll run out of GA on turn 108 and at the current build rate the lib is set to arrive on 111, IIRC. Anyway, you get the point... it's actually not going to be complete until something on the order of 114. So there's an adjustment to the amount of risk we're looking at to not miss out on it to Sabre.

BTW, since we don't have contact w/ Saber can they see that we're bulding it? I don't think so.

Anyway, if we're researching AND going after the GLib it seems a bit of a waste. If we were to go zero research the gold we're not spending now can be stockpiled and dipped into after the fact to speed up research. However, if we spend the gold and get the lib it's just lost. The obvious thing here is that we're hedging our bets by researching now and not falling behind should we miss the GLib. I'm just not sure those turns can't be made up later w/ stockpiled gold because I don't know if the techs can be completed in 4 turns w/o the assistance of a fat treasury.

Big time thanks for the map. That's almost exactly the setup we suspected was out there. Each shallow water "island" are at least 4 (my bet was 3) tiles apart making a crossing by galley a 50/50 shot. And I see how it's a race to Caravels (Astro) and not Galleons (Nav). That being said, and I don't know Kuningas, I just don't see how the FC Axis (a.k.a. Axis of Dirtbags) would attempt a galley crossing. They could not afford to do it in numbers and if they did I would advocate sending about every ounce of gold we have your way to counter what would have to be a poor and poorly defended continent. Just my $0.02.

Tubby Rower
Jun 21, 2007, 07:33 AM
I personally think that they should turn off research and rush some libraries. This would still be useful later on and if they do miss the Glib then the new libraries will help them get more research power.

I think that jb is right that if you haven't met another team, then they can't see if you are building any wonders.

Wotan
Jun 21, 2007, 07:39 AM
Well, if we turn off research we are really depending on the GLib to be built else the time table for an attack on Council is disrupted big time. So do we generate gold from now and until the GLib is hopefully owned by GONG?

Tubby Rower
Jun 21, 2007, 08:00 AM
I responded to this here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=5585988&postcount=32) since it involves more than Gong.

Whomp
Jun 21, 2007, 08:13 AM
I'm a bit concerned about doing that. We'd need to see what Saber is up to in a diplo sesssion to see if we can eek out some information. I don't like the idea of turning off research because of the possibility others are hiding Glib. Glib cost 400 shields and FP costs 300. The question is whether these teams have waited to build the FP? MoM is only 200s iirc so we'd know reasonably fast.

Whomp
Jun 21, 2007, 08:48 PM
GONG would like to turn off research so we should send the Saber letter Friday to see if we can eek out any info.
jb1964 says:
Good evening Whomper
Whomp says:
Hey Dude!
Whomp says:
i had an intern who plays football at northwestern in my office today...made a funny comment about a illini recruit
jb1964 says:
Ill kick his ass
jb1964 says:
First I need to time travel to when he was 11
Whomp says:
HAH!
Whomp says:
Well he was dogging on the guy because he told him that 1. he wanted to go to a school that was known for journalism
Whomp says:
and 2. a school close to chicago
Whomp says:
lol
Whomp says:
good kid i like him
jb1964 says:
kewl, we're trying to score a co-op tomorrow...
jb1964 says:
There's a lot of competition for them at GE
Whomp says:
NU or Uof I?
Whomp says:
or both/
Whomp says:
?
jb1964 says:
We've got co=ops from all over
jb1964 says:
Georgia Tech, Purdue, UCinn
jb1964 says:
We're getting ding-dong-ditched at the moment...
jb1964 says:
I need to go get my shotgun
Whomp says:
how nice
Whomp says:
go through the back door and scare the crap out of them
jb1964 says:
My 14 year old is taking care of it
Whomp says:
even better
Whomp says:
want to see the letter i'm proposing to send saber?
jb1964 says:
I'll give you beer for it
Whomp says:
Hi Dutch,
I wanted to drop you a line because we've recognized that the Free/Council partnership is becoming a research juggernaut. We've been building a prebuild for our GA but have considered shifting it to the Glib instead. We think it's in all of our best interests that we contend with these two and are willing to share if you'd consider paying us gpt for the techs you're missing (ex your free
Whomp says:
tech of course). What do you guys think of this idea?

Whomp says:
all bs
jb1964 says:
you're figgin' evil
Whomp says:
anything i should add?
jb1964 says:
If they give you any data I'll be waay impressed
jb1964 says:
let me ponder....
jb1964 says:
I would toss in a note that Gong is in desarray
jb1964 says:
dis-array
Whomp says:
nah let them ask
jb1964 says:
screwed up, you get the idea
jb1964 says:
ok
jb1964 says:
much better
Whomp says:
less info to the others the better
jb1964 says:
the best lie has the fewest details
Whomp says:
it's not a lie
Whomp says:
we're prebulding....
jb1964 says:
OK, scam
Whomp says:
....mounted warriors :evil:
jb1964 says:
have they asked you for peace?
Whomp says:
no
jb1964 says:
interesting
Whomp says:
we have 20 with council
Whomp says:
and free finally found us
Whomp says:
suicide galley
jb1964 says:
hmmm, well they have not found us
Whomp says:
fully suicide btw so they don't know how the map is laid out
jb1964 says:
I just don't think there's much of a chance that we're going to see a suicide galley/knight landing
Whomp says:
until they figure out the landing zones they're not a threat
jb1964 says:
I trust wotan but there are better targets than us.
jb1964 says:
Hey, who the hell want's to deal w/ Sapahis... tell 'em to say hello to sabre
Whomp says:
and they didn't get to us by landing zone
Whomp says:
zactly
Whomp says:
enkidus and those weird cannons won't do much against sipaphis
jb1964 says:
Well, we're going to pass along the save in the morning....
Whomp says:
daghie's a morning person
Whomp says:
he gets up sometimes when i'm going to bed
jb1964 says:
Daghie and others are of the mind to shut down research and wait out the Fabulous Lib.
jb1964 says:
He's in Norway
Whomp says:
ok well i think the only thing is engineering
Whomp says:
assuming they haven't researched it
jb1964 says:
Ya, talk to me about that, I didn't quite get the gist of your PM
Whomp says:
well my presumption is they're beelining to nav
Whomp says:
so they'll skip engineering unless they got it for free
jb1964 says:
Ah, you think the axis of dirtbags in going to astro w/o hitting engineering
jb1964 says:
once you enter the MA can't you determine if they have Engineering to trade?
Whomp says:
yes
jb1964 says:
kewl
Whomp says:
i think civassist II tells us
jb1964 says:
pfffft
Whomp says:
i think the view is having you short rush some libs would make sense
jb1964 says:
boosting our research potential would be good.
jb1964 says:
we'll need it
Whomp says:
well with pyramids it should be quite a combo
Whomp says:
along with some specialist farms
jb1964 says:
there's talk of going feud and pop rushing everything
Whomp says:
interesting thought
Whomp says:
just don't fight
jb1964 says:
you want us to stay in the wings?
Whomp says:
I swear WW is worse in feud
jb1964 says:
I would think we both need to participate in any offensive
jb1964 says:
I thought feud had zero WW
jb1964 says:
I've never used it
Whomp says:
i'm trying to gather steam on whacking someone
Whomp says:
feud is wicked WW
Whomp says:
republic WW with the pop rush penalty
jb1964 says:
damn, OK, it supports a huge army, just don't use it....
jb1964 says:
I don't get it.
Whomp says:
if you pop rush you get 20 turns of unhappy
Whomp says:
iirc
Whomp says:
so now add WW to that and eek
jb1964 says:
Well, parking in Monarchy is looking just fine then
Whomp says:
it could be a good short term strategy
jb1964 says:
We went for Monarchy thinking it would be a great monopoly tech
jb1964 says:
so far it's given us next to nothing
Whomp says:
map did not make that condusive
jb1964 says:
except an exit from despot
jb1964 says:
true, we were well invested into that path before we knew we were on an island
Whomp says:
i bet
Whomp says:
it was a great idea too
Whomp says:
after everyone wanted republic last time
Whomp says:
and again this time
jb1964 says:
Alright then, we have more to talk about after you get a peek at the techs the axis of dirtbags does or does not have
jb1964 says:
Have fun baiting Sabre

ThERat
Jun 21, 2007, 10:50 PM
well, what is our strategy if we have no research?

Hope Gong finishes the GL and then wait for contacts? If we decide to do that, it would be good to go for engineering in case Free/Council don't have it. I would suggest we do research while Gong goes for money.
How would they share the monetary benefits then? They still owe us some IIRC...

Tubby Rower
Jun 22, 2007, 04:57 AM
if they have ~ 13 turns left on the Glib... it does suck to be wasting gold as beakers when we'll have those techs later.

I'm torn on this. I think that we need to finish Feud and maybe start engineering to get full movement out of the roads over rivers.

Whomp
Jun 23, 2007, 04:50 PM
I tried to fill Daghie in our some of out thoughts on reseaching.

Lots of small talk then....
DaghieDrumBum says:
i'm trying to make a draft for babes/Gongers
DaghieDrumBum says:
i want a big pic-long term agreement inked soon
DaghieDrumBum says:
details later
Whomp says:
ok
Whomp says:
btw here's the scoop on techs
Whomp says:
Saber still doesn't have lit
DaghieDrumBum says:
omg
Whomp says:
nor MM, Constr and myst
DaghieDrumBum says:
GLib gamble big time
Whomp says:
so if they're prebuilding we'd eventually see it
Whomp says:
they're not showing a wonder
DaghieDrumBum says:
palace
Whomp says:
could be
DaghieDrumBum says:
must be
Whomp says:
Council is prebuilding with ToA
Whomp says:
I think they're going for Leos
DaghieDrumBum says:
good guess
Whomp says:
because they have feud and engineering as their free techs so seem to be beelining to cavs
Whomp says:
weird
DaghieDrumBum says:
saw that, yes
Whomp says:
mono is still open
DaghieDrumBum says:
jb was not impressed
Whomp says:
doesn't seem to make sense
Whomp says:
that means no knights or boats that can be a problem
Whomp says:
you may want to hide Glib with ToA
DaghieDrumBum says:
how about we gamble on getting all their lower tire techs w the mama lib and you go upper?
DaghieDrumBum says:
and you hold edu
Whomp says:
we were hoping we could both go mono and feud to get chiv
Whomp says:
but we understand your thinking on running cash
Whomp says:
we could get feud in 6
DaghieDrumBum says:
yes, but that would somehow be shared of course
Whomp says:
i just wonder if we're better off getting mono and feud so we can each have chiv
Whomp says:
while we'll get all the lower techs from Glib
Whomp says:
if we have boats and knights we could be a nightmare for these guys
DaghieDrumBum says:
but are we in a hurry for knights if the dirtbags go lower?
DaghieDrumBum says:
you wanna go whack some before they arrive?
Whomp says:
the advantage of getting knights now is we can upgrade easier and focus on getting boats out fastDaghieDrumBum says:
do you have iron?
Whomp says:
we do now
Whomp says:
island
DaghieDrumBum says:
congrats
DaghieDrumBum says:
i wouldn't want to bum you guys out by not going full speed on mono
Whomp says:
well i think it will give us a huge lead if we do get both rolling
Whomp says:
then if it's timed we can get in the other teams kitchen
DaghieDrumBum says:
we will bothe be rollin like thunder. just a matter of right now or in little while
DaghieDrumBum says:
babes seem more eager than gongers
Whomp says:
i know
Whomp says:
we can decide together but our case would be it's just one step closer to boats that the others won't have
Whomp says:
and we really don't need the boats
DaghieDrumBum says:
i cannot argue with that
Whomp says:
if they'd researched mono i'd say it was different
Whomp says:
it seems obvious they're going lower half at max speed
DaghieDrumBum says:
yes
DaghieDrumBum says:
my thinking is that trading overseas will be bigger than shipping units
Whomp says:
oh yeah
Whomp says:
no doubt
DaghieDrumBum says:
saltpeter...!
Whomp says:
i'm sure rik has major things up his sleeve
DaghieDrumBum says:
going for cavs full speed, then no powder for fuel
Whomp says:
or just one to share with two
DaghieDrumBum says:
hehe
DaghieDrumBum says:
if we can infest the saber island and agree on sharing we will be in a nice spot
DaghieDrumBum says:
i won't have cham on a stack of sip's
Whomp says:
exactly
Whomp says:
the other two don't have a UU that should be feared
DaghieDrumBum says:
agree
DaghieDrumBum says:
just for triggering a GA
Whomp says:
if they can
Whomp says:
have you ever used those cannons for a GA?
DaghieDrumBum says:
they're playing they strenghts
DaghieDrumBum says:
nope
Whomp says:
you need to kill something to generate a GA
DaghieDrumBum says:
never played koreans
Whomp says:
bizarre UU
DaghieDrumBum says:
just hide one in a Sod
Whomp says:
it needs to do the killing
DaghieDrumBum says:
or 5
Whomp says:
it has lethal bombard but still...
DaghieDrumBum says:
it has strong bombardment 12 insted of 8 IIRC
Whomp says:
right
DaghieDrumBum says:
i will ponder the mono thing once again
Whomp says:
ok
DaghieDrumBum says:
we will be earnest in which way we choose
Whomp says:
is Cane back now? I haven't seen him in Civ4 forum yet
DaghieDrumBum says:
still cuddeling methinks
Whomp says:
of course
Whomp says:
turns already to you i see lol
DaghieDrumBum says:
would be nice to have himas tp again
DaghieDrumBum says:
i'll do somedirty work til he comes back
DaghieDrumBum says:
dirtbags wanna speed up
DaghieDrumBum says:
i think they want turns to go faster than diplo
Whomp says:
i still haven't heard back from saber on my note
Whomp says:
they must be panicked by it
Whomp says:
did jb show you?
DaghieDrumBum says:
free/counsil have a solid long termer and just wanna play it out
DaghieDrumBum says:
i'veseen it
Whomp says:
lose the connection?
Whomp says:
JB's here
DaghieDrumBum says:
back
DaghieDrumBum says:
bring him in
Whomp says:
hmm
DaghieDrumBum says:
hi jb (JB never appeared)
Whomp says:
seems he's away
DaghieDrumBum says:
yeah...hmm
DaghieDrumBum says:
hows tubby?
Whomp says:
Great
DaghieDrumBum says:
any tantrums
Whomp says:
he bought a new aquarium he's into
DaghieDrumBum says:
oh cool
Whomp says:
he moved his home
Whomp says:
and the kids are getting big fast
DaghieDrumBum says:
tell me about it
Whomp says:
no tantrums other than when council said we couldn't use their waterways even outside their borders
DaghieDrumBum says:
send him my best
Whomp says:
i will
DaghieDrumBum says:
they said that???
Whomp says:
initially
DaghieDrumBum says:
that si making an explicit point
DaghieDrumBum says:
as in "we have AC"
Whomp says:
we told them that we felt it was quite provocative
Whomp says:
and it was sent by Babe Ruth instead of one of our Babes
DaghieDrumBum says:
LOL
Whomp says:
he's not the most attractive babe in the world and he carries a big stick
DaghieDrumBum says:
have ty cobb send the next one
Whomp says:

Whomp says:
he's even uglier and definitely meaner
DaghieDrumBum says:
i've been told, yes
DaghieDrumBum says:
have him sit on a horse when delivering
Whomp says:
hah
Whomp says:
that would be funny
DaghieDrumBum says:
saw currency popped up. thanks a bunch

Priming him for our thoughts on war. Eventually we should make them aware of our intentions. Timing?
DaghieDrumBum says:
do we have anyone counting beans in reference to our affairs?
Whomp says:
well not so much
Whomp says:
i know wotan knows
DaghieDrumBum says:
not my arena that one
DaghieDrumBum says:
so we both fell like win/win
Whomp says:
thing is our view is if we smash through the MA's it's a huge win for us
Whomp says:
together
DaghieDrumBum says:
smashing and whacking don't always go hand in hand
DaghieDrumBum says:
starting a sabre campaign will slow that down
DaghieDrumBum says:
*thinking of the tnt campaign*
Whomp says:
i think massive force would be the key
Whomp says:
like MIA to us
DaghieDrumBum says:
massive is key
Whomp says:
I'd like to do it soon personally
Whomp says:
but that's my inner warmonger talking
DaghieDrumBum says:
the astro dash?
Whomp says:
well we don't need it to fight
Whomp says:
that's a big advantage i'm trying to convince our team about
Whomp says:
we have Glight so they can't return fire except on our terms
DaghieDrumBum says:
one step ahead of us there
DaghieDrumBum says:
we couldn't helpmuch
Whomp says:
you would though
Whomp says:
not militarily maybe but helping each of us to have the same capability goes a long long way
DaghieDrumBum says:
that we could do
jb1964 has left the conversation.

Whomp says:
eventually galleys won't offer what caravels or galleons would
DaghieDrumBum says:
so true
DaghieDrumBum says:
when can you get us in contact w dirtbags? PP?
Whomp says:
with Free?
DaghieDrumBum says:
yes
Whomp says:
i think it makes sense once Glib is finished
DaghieDrumBum says:
i'd say just before we get edu
Whomp says:
you know i think that was the reason why we waited
Whomp says:
we felt they'd already blow through edu by now
Whomp says:
but now i'm not sure it will matter as much other than tipping them off to your build
DaghieDrumBum says:
wouldn't we increase our chanses of more techs if we waited some?
Whomp says:
that's the thinking
Whomp says:
especially if they got education
Whomp says:
i have to walk the dogs be back in 10
DaghieDrumBum says:
well I've gotta go shut eye. i'llhold on playing the save and see what has happende during the evening when I wake up.
DaghieDrumBum says:
maybe we can get a treaty on peace/rescourses soon and do something more detailed on science asap? we will do Mono if you've already started on Feud. I'll get back on our science speed soon. CYA soon Bernie

He was gone when I returned.

Kickbooti
Jun 23, 2007, 05:01 PM
Boy it is nice having Dag, Cane and jb running things. I don't know if they voted Rick off the island or just pried the wheel away, but this is much, much nicer.

ThERat
Jun 23, 2007, 10:39 PM
ok, this looks good and promising. I hope they will really go for mono then

Wotan
Jun 24, 2007, 12:31 AM
They say they will go for mono if we have started on Feudalism. And since we have the decision seems to be made already. Just get info on their ETA, we want to get Feudalsim to coincide with this so we get max use of Scientists.

Wotan
Jun 24, 2007, 08:31 AM
From Killercane:
We can have Feudalism in 4-5 turns, and Mono in 5. We probably wont want to build the GLibrary if we do Mono. Do you guys want us to do Feudalism and you Engineering? How much gold do we still owe you guys?

He does not seem to have read up on the discussions. We have already started on Feudalism and we have talked about mono/feudalism to open up Chivalry, right? Also not going for the GLib seems a bit late now... That is definitely part of the agreement they try to build it. And it is due in 10 turns or so.

Whomp
Jun 24, 2007, 08:39 AM
I'm not sure he realizes these guys are likely beelining the lower half. One of them may be doing a slow burn on mono but the other is looking running hot on invention and beyond at this point.

Pm sent to Daghie.
Hey Daghie,

We got a message from 'Cane saying you may not want to finish Glib. The thing about Free/Council research is they are likely running max on the lower half and cash for the other. My guess is they've already got invention and are continuing along that path. Do you think it's worth giving up on Glib still? It would likely mean engineering, invention and gunpowder at the min.

We're on feud if you go mono and it will be timed perfectly so we can continue on.

Let us know.
W

Whomp
Jun 24, 2007, 10:08 AM
Here's my conversation with Killercane. I think I've tried to show them the light. They were thinking Leo's instead of Glib but by denying Saber and having the other two go full speed towards MT benefits us both. They could run cash and we could get chiv (they don't have horses btw).

casey j says:

Guy talk stuff....Gram H you can skip this stuff. :D
Bernie!
Whomp says:
HEY what's up old married guy
casey j says:
nothing, kicking this ball and chain attached to my ankle around
Whomp says:
i have a couple rules for you
casey j says:
yeah?
Whomp says:
1. always make the call. If you think you'll be home at 10 say 11
casey j says:
ha
Whomp says:
always better to give yourself some room to manuever
Whomp says:
you'll be a hero if you're home at 10
casey j says:
yep thats a good one
Whomp says:
2. don't let her throw all your junk out even if she says it's so 90's
Whomp says:
keep you junk and make a stand
Whomp says:
you'll get that comment i swear
casey j says:
i think ive successfully fought off that one already
casey j says:
already got it!
Whomp says:
attaboy
casey j says:
wanting to throw all my 80s baseball cards away
Whomp says:
that doesn't work
casey j says:
hey thats my childhood memories!
Whomp says:
zactly
casey j says:
thats some good advice but i need some more
Whomp says:
ok have a small slush fund
Whomp says:
it's always useful in cases when you're playing poker or going to the boats
Whomp says:
not that you're trying to be devious but there's times when a man has to be able to do what he has to do
Whomp says:
poker is one of those times
Whomp says:
she's already allocated the whole budget for the house, stuff, window treatments, nick knacks....stuff
casey j says:
heh yeah, i got "lets remodel the bathroom" yesterday
Whomp says:
seeeeee....
Whomp says:
and it probably needs to be done
Whomp says:
however...
casey j says:
however?
Whomp says:
she's not allowed to spend like a drunkin' sailor

To business...
casey j says:
hey can we trade contacts in the MTDG (civ 3) with Mapmaking?
casey j says:
yeah its gonna be spend spend spend i told her
Whomp says:
we can give you contacts yes
casey j says:
ah ok, so the only consideration is beating the other two to the Library
casey j says:
other 3 i guess
Whomp says:
Saber hasn't returned a message on my offer
Whomp says:
I don't think the other two are looking at Glib
casey j says:
i wouldnt think so
Whomp says:
I think they're trying to get Leo's though
casey j says:
well the catch is this
casey j says:
if we build the library before they get Gunpowder, they wont trade across
Whomp says:
don't they need to know where the salt is?
casey j says:
they could trade maps to the other team
Whomp says:
true
Whomp says:
i'm thinking they must have invention and should be closing in on powder don't you?
Whomp says:
they've had ~10 turns in the MA's
Whomp says:
or more
casey j says:
i sent a pm to Wotan saying something similar but you are more familiar with their timeline. they got Feud and Engineering free or they got the same tech for both? I think one is researching and the other is financing them
Whomp says:
i agree
Whomp says:
my guess is they got the same tech
Whomp says:
or they'd be further ahead
casey j says:
they are on invention now then, or close to gunpowder. one is republic or they both are now?
Whomp says:
hmm
Whomp says:
i think both

Prebuild talk...
Whomp says:
Out of curiousity if you didn't do Glib what would you do?
Whomp says:
you have FP
casey j says:
Leos
Whomp says:
ok
Whomp says:
through ToA?
casey j says:
no just with palace
Whomp says:
k
casey j says:
you have a leos build as well? i asked that a while back i think
Whomp says:
nope

Feed a little war propaganda...
Whomp says:
I'm gathering steam on pounding Saber while they're down
Whomp says:
between me and you
Whomp says:
and they're way down
casey j says:
well thats good. wotan was saying we had agreed to do mono but i dont see the point if we build TGL
Whomp says:
3 techs would be the benefit and that assumes they don't continue along the lower half
Whomp says:
I think we'd be able to get quite a tech lead if it's done
Whomp says:
and denying Saber too
casey j says:
how since we cant tech past education?
Whomp says:
chivalry and theo first
casey j says:
yes but why would we need those? MWs> knights and we have no horses
Whomp says:
ahh

Whomp says:
how soon would you need to switch?
Whomp says:
114?
casey j says:
switch what, governments?
Whomp says:
no prebuilds
casey j says:
prebuilds to Leos or Great Libe?
Whomp says:
yep
]b]casey j says:
TGL is due in like 10 turns yeah
casey j says:
so that is enough time for the others to get gunpowder i think[/b]
Whomp says:
one second holly's on the phone
casey j says:
no prob
Whomp says:
back
Whomp says:
OK so a few things

Summarize....
Whomp says:
1. is denying Saber and keeping them ancient
Whomp says:
2. eng., invention and powder
Whomp says:
you could run cash at that point
Whomp says:
and we could get chiv
Whomp says:
then theo
Whomp says:
if they keep rolling towards chem that could be possible
Whomp says:
it still seems worth it to me
casey j says:
1 is good and grand
casey j says:
but 2 would be hopefully get eng, invention and powder free, and then follow them to MT dont you think?
casey j says:
we finance you that way?
Whomp says:
if they continue on that path it would be huge
Whomp says:
it wouldn't be long before we'd have astro and MT
casey j says:
if they dont we will just get mono->edu free, and hedge our bets by researching up to MT
Whomp says:
another reason we have to deny Saber is if they get MT look out
casey j says:
now conversely if we researched full blast to astro, the libe is useless, but we would have a short term advantage to exploit
Whomp says:
i'm surprised they didn't split research already
Whomp says:
the other benefit of getting astro is trading resources which i think will be sparse
casey j says:
yeah we will need ocean travel for that though
casey j says:
oh gotta run, we have the save, i will try to be back on later. do you guys really really really want us to do mono or do you just want to wait?
Whomp says:
ok
Whomp says:
i think it makes sense
Whomp says:
if they're going lower half it plays into our hands

Wotan
Jun 24, 2007, 11:18 AM
casey j says:
oh gotta run, we have the save, i will try to be back on later. do you guys really really really want us to do mono or do you just want to wait?
Whomp says:
ok

Is this OK = YES WE WANT MONO? It is a bit ambiguous I guess. And we really really want them to get mono. So not really sure why this risk of misunderstanding?

Whomp
Jun 24, 2007, 11:36 AM
The "ok" was "ok good bye". I'm trying to see what they're driving at because I feel we're spinning our wheels. Stepping out of your Babe shoes does anyone understand why they're not understanding the situation? What are the other options? Is it Leo's so Saber gets Glib?

I think we're going to have to explain that we'll consider this as quite uncooperative if they're not following through and maybe we should work with Saber instead. Sheesh.

From Daghie.


Hi there Bernie, we're discussing the options vividly. I fully aware you'd prefer us to go GLib and deny Saber a catch-up + getting a head start on the lower tier. I'm advocating that too, but there are more options of course and nothing is definitely decided. I will stick to my promise to let you know which way we go as soon as decided. I know this indecision will put some Babes off so heres a :beer: to cool 'em.
I'm off to practice so won't take part of this evenings diplo.

Stay clean
//N

Wotan
Jun 24, 2007, 11:44 AM
Starting to talk about other options when we have just helped them into the MA and really given them a lot for basically nothing is a bit much.

We agreed on them going for GLib as part of the deal, that is not open for renegotiation nor is mono. Or how would they repay us for 20+ turns of research they could save?????? I'm beginning to really dislike these guys.

I sure hope they have started on Mono when they post the save and keep working on the GLib.

Whomp
Jun 24, 2007, 11:56 AM
If they don't we'll have to let them know this is not a way to be partners and we should probably forget the long term partnership.

I'm truly trying to understand their thinking for their perspective and can't come up with anything.

Message sent to Daghie.
Daghie,

We're trying to see things from your perspective but I'll be honest it's difficult. We've given you ~20 turns worth of research as a sign of good will. By not going for Glib and mono doesn't seem to make a lot of sense to us for a lot of reasons that I mentioned to 'Cane.

Please enlighten us why you're balking at this and if you're not doing Glib and mono where do we stand?

Our view is this brings us up to speed with Council/Free and leaves Saber in the dust amongst many other things like you being able to run full cash once it's finished....please tell us how we're both rewarded.

Thanks
W

Wotan
Jun 24, 2007, 01:10 PM
If there is any discontent on their team that is simply not our problem. Those that did iron out the currnet deal with us need to step up and explain to the rest of tehir team this is not something that is renegotiable. Besides this is taking a lot of energy from our game constantly having to discuss things over and over again. it is plainly stupid and given the extreme stupidity when Rick played and adding that it is beginning to just be too much for my tast. unfortunatly we have given them everything for just about nothing in return and only promises so far of techs and GLib benefits. We even gave them some mapping info and what do we get in return?

A lame, Oh, we are thinking about not doing anything we have promised to do. There are those on the team who would want to go another road.

THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO RENEGOTIATE WE HAVE DELIVERED EVERTHING THEY WANTED FROM THE DEAL AND ARE NOW WAITING FOR THEM TO FULFILL THEIR PART OF THE DEAL

As Tubby, Kickbooti and others so aptly put it:
NEVER UNDERESTIMATE THE POWER OF STUPID PEOPLE IN LARGE GROUPS

I guess GONG has reached the critical mass to be called a large group

Kickbooti
Jun 24, 2007, 02:49 PM
We agreed on them going for GLib as part of the deal, that is not open for renegotiation nor is mono. Or how would they repay us for 20+ turns of research they could save?????? I'm beginning to really dislike these guys.


Could they gift us the Leo city for a few turns for upgrades? As a worse case scenario I mean. Since Free/Council are so tight the other option is to try and cozy up to Saber/GLib, and that ship may have sailed.

Wotan
Jun 24, 2007, 03:04 PM
That scenario is not even worth discussing. We have a deal the time to discuss any deal is long since gone. And now they have roughly 30 mins to post a save. Not even that seeems to be something these jokers can manage.

considering the attitude and behavior of ppl on the GONG team I am very surprised about the developments thinking back to the early days of this "alliance" and Tubby's reassuring words:
those guys are honorable and I'd be willing to gift them with "future favors" to be determined later. be it techs, cash or military help

Seldom have I experienced less honourable actions in the past. ;)

Wotan
Jun 24, 2007, 03:58 PM
Have the save, they are researching mono. And I have recieved a PM from Daghie about him thinking they will get in line... In swedish so not a lot of value posting it I guess?

Whomp
Jun 24, 2007, 04:19 PM
Hopefully they're coming to their senses. It's like a light bulb went off talking to JB.


jb1964 says:
OK, I just read a post by Daghie that my newly energized teammates are dicking up our plans.
Whomp says:
I don't get it
jb1964 says:
Don't worry, we're not going to let that happen
Whomp says:
K
Whomp says:
It doesn't make sense to anyone on our team
jb1964 says:
We're going to go for Mono, get that to you, get Chiv in your hands and then see how the GLib shakes out
jb1964 says:
Here's the schenario...
Whomp says:
no chiv isn't necessary
Whomp says:
we'll research that so it's just mono
jb1964 says:
OK, whatever, we'll get you what you need
Whomp says:
you can turn off research after mono
jb1964 says:
I've been whipping up the membership to get involved
jb1964 says:
and some are asking ogood questions but they're not reading the history
jb1964 says:
And kane just got back from his honeymoon so he's completely screwed up
jb1964 says:

Whomp says:
Well if they don't understand that speed is an issue ten what is it?
Whomp says:
I can understand wanting Leo's however the way I see it Glib is Leo's times 10
jb1964 says:
Dunno, I'm just guessing...
jb1964 says:
Leo's sucks
jb1964 says:
Make Leo's our fallback
Whomp says:
it's ok but the reality is Glib allows you to turn off research
Whomp says:
that's huge
jb1964 says:
understood
Whomp says:
and catch up techwise
Whomp says:
that's worth who knows how many free turns burning cash
jb1964 says:
Well, the turn is onto you guys, and we're researching Mono.
Whomp says:
OK cool
Whomp says:
JB we're not trying to be difficult, are we?
Whomp says:
I mean Babe when I say this
jb1964 says:
Well, if you don't want Mono for Chivalry, I'm not sure I get it either... Other than as a risk abatement paln for not getting GLib
Whomp says:
Mono hasn't been researched
jb1964 says:
Ah yes.... we need to research it any ways
jb1964 says:
nevermind
Whomp says:
they're going lower half
Whomp says:
engineering --> invention --> likely gunpowder (for salt recognition)
jb1964 says:
OK, but you seem to want Feud prior to sailing and I can understand that
Whomp says:
we need mono to research astro
jb1964 says:
rather than wait for a GLib windfall
Whomp says:
there won't be an upper half windfall
jb1964 says:
but you're researching Feud right now correct?
Whomp says:
it will all be lower half
Whomp says:
cuz we can do it in 5 while you're doing mono in 5
Whomp says:
we can then do chiv while you sit on zero research
Whomp says:
waiting for glib to come in
jb1964 says:
OK, I understand
jb1964 says:
I'll make it painfully clear to my fellow gogners.
Whomp says:
so within 10 turns we get three techs and on turn 11 likely another 3
Whomp says:
that's huge
Whomp says:
and more if they keep running to MT!
jb1964 says:
Ya, I'm not going to research eduactation, that's for sure
Whomp says:
that's why the timing of mono/feud is so big
Whomp says:
Well there again is a huge advantage
Whomp says:
if they're burning lower half then one of them will have to go upper meaning both are researching while only one of us is researching
Whomp says:
does that make sense?
Whomp says:
Casey's online
jb1964 says:
Ya, he's online and he just pinged me...
Whomp says:
k
jb1964 says:
We're talking Mono...
jb1964 says:
Here's my post in our Department of Turnplay...
jb1964 says:
Mono is an unknown tech so somebody's going to have to research it anyways and we might even do that to make a mad dash to Astro w/ the Babes.

So point 1 is, we need Mono for a run at Astro.

The Babes are going for Feud presumably to bring some pikes with them to Sabre island.

Point 2 is, they don't need to research it but it has high value to them sooner rather then later.

After we get Mono,
jb1964 says:
we go zero research and they go for Chivalry. The sooner the get Mono the sooner they get started on Chivalry and can be pumping out knights in their Golden Age putting a big hurt on Sabre.

Point 3, if we leave them hanging they're going to be pissed. We don't want that.

The Babes own the seas and we should enable them to take high advantage of that at the expense of our neighbors.
jb1964 says:
I bit selfish and inward oriented, but that will peak to the troops
jb1964 says:
A bit selfish, that is...
Whomp says:
The way I look at it is Glib saves 15-25 turns on research
Whomp says:
maybe more
jb1964 says:
There's no way in hell that GLib build is going to turn into anything else as long as it's available...
Whomp says:
meanwhile having the capability to move caravels early is big. I think we both realize controlling the seas will be a difference maker
jb1964 says:
To swap that for Leo's is not a good move, it's frigging stupid
Whomp says:
Leo's won't happen if you don't get Glib anyhow
jb1964 says:
A point that I will also make, thanks for being my brain today
Whomp says:
that would require engineering and feud and invention
Whomp says:
feud will be done but engineering and invention may make that a slow down in proudction
jb1964 says:
And that would presume we're not going for GLiba nyhow so we should be going for Mono w/ fire in our hair anyway
jb1964 says:
Sheesh
jb1964 says:
Casey's been bouncing in and out, looks like he's having the same issue I've been having but more severe

Wotan
Jun 24, 2007, 04:55 PM
OK, Killercane seems to be left out of the loop. Got this from him and my reply:
Quote:
Originally Posted by killercane
Dags said he got some annoyed pms from you and Whomp; I was just trying to get on the same page with you guys since it is a bit unclear why we were researching Mono asap when we probably will get it two turns later upon building the Great Library. It is unclear in our forum, and it only really says Wotan said "Research mono."

Can we have a team chat or something soon?

My reply:
FREE/Council has Feudalism/Engineering but not mono. I think Whomp was involved in a chat a short while ago?

We talked about going mono/Feudalism together (while you were gone) and your team wanted to take on Mono if we started on Feudalism (UU and such was an issue I guess) When I played last turn I sent a message about us starting on Feudalism thus the "Wotan said" I guess. It was just to tell you we had begun and was interested in an ETA for your research into mono.

Whomp
Jun 24, 2007, 05:18 PM
The rest of the conversation. Killercane asked that we let him know the turn we'll finish feud. Their GA ends on turn 108 so he'd like to know if it will be turn 109 or 110. That way he can fiddle with his scientists.

Whomp says:
Casey's online
jb1964 says:
Ya, he's online and he just pinged me...
Whomp says:
k
jb1964 says:
We're talking Mono...
jb1964 says:
Here's my post in our Department of Turnplay...
jb1964 says:
Mono is an unknown tech so somebody's going to have to research it anyways and we might even do that to make a mad dash to Astro w/ the Babes.

So point 1 is, we need Mono for a run at Astro.

The Babes are going for Feud presumably to bring some pikes with them to Sabre island.

Point 2 is, they don't need to research it but it has high value to them sooner rather then later.

After we get Mono,
jb1964 says:
we go zero research and they go for Chivalry. The sooner the get Mono the sooner they get started on Chivalry and can be pumping out knights in their Golden Age putting a big hurt on Sabre.

Point 3, if we leave them hanging they're going to be pissed. We don't want that.

The Babes own the seas and we should enable them to take high advantage of that at the expense of our neighbors.
jb1964 says:
I bit selfish and inward oriented, but that will peak to the troops
jb1964 says:
A bit selfish, that is...
Whomp says:
The way I look at it is Glib saves 15-25 turns on research
Whomp says:
maybe more
jb1964 says:
There's no way in hell that GLib build is going to turn into anything else as long as it's available...
Whomp says:
meanwhile having the capability to move caravels early is big. I think we both realize controlling the seas will be a difference maker
jb1964 says:
To swap that for Leo's is not a good move, it's frigging stupid
Whomp says:
Leo's won't happen if you don't get Glib anyhow
jb1964 says:
A point that I will also make, thanks for being my brain today
Whomp says:
that would require engineering and feud and invention
Whomp says:
feud will be done but engineering and invention may make that a slow down in proudction
jb1964 says:
And that would presume we're not going for GLiba nyhow so we should be going for Mono w/ fire in our hair anyway
jb1964 says:
Sheesh
jb1964 says:
Casey's been bouncing in and out, looks like he's having the same issue I've been having but more severe

Casey has been added to the conversation.

jb1964 has left the conversation.

jb1964 has been added to the conversation.

Whomp says:
haha
Whomp says:
ok we're all here
jb1964 says:
Hola my friends
Casey says:
cool hang on just one sec
Whomp says:
Wotan's playing the save
Whomp says:
it seems he and Daghie talked in their native tongue
jb1964 says:
What, "Drummer"?
Whomp says:
Yep
Whomp says:
cubs swept today....anything you want to say?
Casey says:
k back
jb1964 says:
SWwept who?
Whomp says:
white sox
Whomp says:

jb1964 says:
I regret I had to hear that from you..
jb1964 says:
I would have much rather been totally obnoxious about it
Whomp says:
i nipped it in the bud
jb1964 says:
but it really doesn't matter, theey still suckj
Whomp says:
OK can we summarize?
Casey says:
yes lets do for slow me
Whomp says:
mono hasn't been researched
Whomp says:
by anyone
Casey says:
indeed
Whomp says:
feud and engineering have
jb1964 says:
The FC axis of dirtbags is goign lower teir
Whomp says:
right
Whomp says:
so after you finish mono and we finish feud
Whomp says:
you turn off research
jb1964 says:
OK
Whomp says:
we run hot on chiv
Whomp says:
Now I know it doesn't benefit you now
Whomp says:
but you're running cash
Casey says:
well that was my question, why we were going to mono, as i thought you said we should do mono, chivalry, and then theology. since we were probably going to get mono 2 turns later with the GLibrary, I was wondering. seems i confused everyone
Whomp says:
no
Casey says:
but it fits in with your timetable better right?
Whomp says:
i think feud and mono should be good in 5
Whomp says:
we can then run chiv ~5-6 right?
Whomp says:
in that timeframe Glib comes in
Casey says:
i dont know what your science capacity is, but probably sure
Whomp says:
ok so three techs in 10-11 turns
Whomp says:
then Glib pops
Casey says:
i didnt know you guys wanted knights so badly
Whomp says:
it would be nice to upgrade MWs
Whomp says:
We need to find some horses for you guys
Casey says:
indeed. ok so what turn do you want monotheism sent over?
Whomp says:
when you finish
Whomp says:
i think we're timed exactly
jb1964 says:
when we finish is variable
jb1964 says:
give us a turn and we'll put it into the plan
Casey says:
right but when will you get Feudalism so we can orchestrate scientists or taxmen better
Whomp says:
well it seems we need to turn down feud then...
Whomp says:
we could have it in 5
Casey says:
no i started mono this past turn
Whomp says:
full speed?
Casey says:
it showed 6 turns
Whomp says:
ok
jb1964 says:
but that can be accelerate?
jb1964 says:
d
Casey says:
yes it can
Whomp says:
I think the faster we roll the better we'll both be
jb1964 says:
brb, got to talk w/ the better half....
Casey says:
this is why i waited until the nth hour to play the turn, trying to get on the same page and i seemed to have rocked the boat needlessly
Casey says:
but no one had impressed the need for chivalry on me
Whomp says:
Sorry I may not have been clear
Whomp says:
there's no need for you I found out today
Whomp says:
i didn't realize you didn't have horses
Whomp says:
so we'll do it alone
Whomp says:
worst case is you can do KT if you want
Casey says:
no one had mentioned that we didnt have them so i looked (had the save open while i did all this post wedding stuff)
Whomp says:
if Glib fell through
Casey says:
well i dont think it will, if you guys string sabre along well enough
Whomp says:
they still haven't responded and don't have lit still
Casey says:
that sounds good
Whomp says:
they're missing contacts too iirc
Whomp says:
I think they've met Council and us
Casey says:
ah
jb1964 says:
But they're worthless to Council
Whomp says:
Zactly
Whomp says:
they made a big mistake going Ottos
Casey says:
well i wanted to apologize, dags seemed to be mad and everyone else, i only saw where wotan said research mono and wanted to know why in an effort to coordinate better
Casey says:
sabre's capital is size 7 with no growth
Whomp says:
that tells me they must be either at happy max or prebuilding?
Casey says:
well you would see their prebuild, i really dont know why
Whomp says:
happy max
Whomp says:
iirc there's two luxs per island?
Casey says:
yep
Whomp says:
maybe they're building a market with it
Casey says:
maybe
Casey says:
so you will have feudalism on turn 109?
Whomp says:
i think wotan said 5 turns
Casey says:
from last turn right?
Casey says:
not the current one he is playing?
Whomp says:
let me look real quick
jb1964 says:
Just check and let us know by next turn, we'll adjust
Whomp says:
just a fyi SABER still down MM, Constr., HBR, Lit and Mysticism
Whomp says:
We have 6 turns to Feudalism
Whomp says:
on last turn so 5 more
jb1964 says:
They are so frigging screwed it's not funny
Whomp says:
If we get the best and fastest boats first they sure are
jb1964 says:
So if you're 5 turns from now we can drop Mono on you 5 turns from now and that shold work just fine.
Whomp says:
that would be coordinated
Whomp says:
i will have wotan pm you speeds
Whomp says:
Case--what I mentioned to JB is Free or Council is going to have to run top half at some point
Whomp says:
they'll both be researching
Casey says:
yep
Whomp says:
we'll only need one of us to research
Casey says:
so mono on turn 110
Casey says:
or 109 so we can give it to you a turn early and you can still take off i guess
Whomp says:
The sooner you finish the sooner you go max cash
jb1964 says:
Hey Cane, when do we want Feud?
Casey says:
anytime is fine, it obsoletes the gallics
Whomp says:
we can wait if you'd prefer
Casey says:
i dont think it matters
Casey says:
MDI are pretty good as well
Whomp says:
Pikes too
Casey says:
so send over mono on turn 109? or 108?
Casey says:
just to be clear
jb1964 says:
The GS's are nice but they're not the critical unit here...
Whomp says:
Wotan just asked for a ETA. If we get it 108 then we can start chiv on 109
Casey says:
so you are doing feudalism in 4 turns
Whomp says:
from 104 it's 6 turns
Whomp says:
so 104, 5, 6, 7, 8, and 9
Whomp says:
i'm struggling to even count
Casey says:
ok i guess that is feudalism in 5 turns
Casey says:
we do mono in 4 to send it on across
Whomp says:
ok then that sounds well timed
Whomp says:
then run cash
Casey says:
yes i think, quote think, we can do that schedule, we jsut have to turn a lot of scientists over to take it from 6 to 4 (and we lose our golden age in 4, which will be difficult to figure out)
Whomp says:
right
Casey says:
do you know when our golden age ends in pbem?
Whomp says:
20 turns
Whomp says:
same
Casey says:
yes but there is a bug
Whomp says:
on the IT?
Whomp says:
i can't remember how that happends
Casey says:
we end on turn 108 so does it calculate it before and we lose a turn?
Whomp says:
Eeesh

jb1964 has left the conversation.

Whomp says:
i tried searching it
Casey says:
well i will work it out, if we have to run a bazillion more scientists then so be it
Casey says:
to make sure
Casey says:
cause it also affects our lux slider
Whomp says:
Sorry for the confusion
Casey says:
did you invite jb back?

Whomp
Jun 24, 2007, 06:47 PM
Hah! It's raining GONG today. Here's a pm from Bugs and my response. Should we just tell them we're whacking them?
Hey POTKISS! Oh I mean Bernie!

After reading that last conversation that you had with our guys, I think our two teams need to prop up SABER. Otherwise the axis of evil is going to wipe them out in short order putting Babe and Gong at a distinct disadvantage.

what to you think/

Tom
Hi Bugs T!

Long time no talk!

I'm a little concerned about about helping them out. First, I'm trying to gather momentum to go in and whack them ourselves. They're pretty far behind and I'd rather not face them when they have Chamnix cranking out sipaphis. As well they already have 10 coastal cities so they're preparing for a naval oriented game. I'd rather beat them down than prop them up. I'll post your pm to see how people feel about it.

Bern Dog

Tubby Rower
Jun 25, 2007, 04:20 AM
hmm.. jb is posting stuff from their Turnplay thread? sounds like they still haven't figured out that it's best to keep quiet.

I'm fine with telling them that we are planning on expanding in Saber's direction. If they screw us, they too will be screwed so I see no reasonably valid reason that they'd back-stab us.

Whomp
Jun 25, 2007, 07:21 AM
It seems Bugs agrees with you Tubs.
Oh . .. .. .. .! You didn't say they have Chamnix as their military mind. You are absolutely correct. Take them out now. If you would like, we can figure out a way to help you guys.

Wotan
Jun 26, 2007, 11:03 PM
from GONG:
Hiya, here's treaty draft. Have a peek and let us know what you think. It's kinda big pic, but believe we can settle on details as we go.

THE GONG BABES TREATY

Rules of the House

Military:

No Fighting
-Teams Gong and Babes will live in peace and not take any miltary action towards each other, nor will they in any other way support a third party in conflict with the other part in this treaty.

No Gatecrashing
-Entering each others territory is prohibited unless the other part accepts the visit. Visitors are required to announce type and number of units before entering.

Techs:


Spead the gossip
-Teams Gong and Babes will collaborate in research of new technologies. No third team is to be part of this collaboration unless teams Gong and Babes both agree on that.

There's a tab set up behind the bar

-Negotiations on details will take place whenever the situation calls for it. If teams cannot agree in negotiations, the tech part of the treaty may be nullified in all, alternatively put on hold until an agreement can be reached.

Rescourses:

Share and share alike
-When possible, teams Gong and Babes will share rescourses needed for optimal development of our civs. No luxury/rescourse is to be denied the other part as long as an agreed payment for it can be carried out.
-Trading luxes/rescourses with third party is only allowed if both teams agree.

Duration:

Lock in lasts till dawn

This treaty is valid from the date that both teams have sealed it.
It will last until both teams are the last ones standing.
This treaty can otherwise only be canceled if (1) both teams agree on doing so, or (2) if one side delibriatly violates it.

Tubby Rower
Jun 27, 2007, 04:57 AM
so basically that last sentence... #2 means we can terminate it whenever we choose?

I don't like the It will last until both teams are the last ones standing. suppose that Free and council have only their one-tilers left. we'd have to wait until marines before we could fight each other....with the delays that we have seen in turn play, that will suck (technical term)

Robi D
Jun 27, 2007, 05:59 AM
so basically that last sentence... #2 means we can terminate it whenever we choose?

I think we should suggest an earlier cancellation then that needs a 20 turn warning or some other number.

I don't like the suppose that Free and council have only their one-tilers left. we'd have to wait until marines before we could fight each other....with the delays that we have seen in turn play, that will suck (technical term)

If we have left Free or Council with a couple of one tilers only then we would have won domination so the treaty wqouldn't really matter;)

Whomp
Jun 27, 2007, 07:37 AM
I would like some stipulation on tech speeds. To coordinate better we should add time to completion so no one sandbags. If someone states they're going to finish in 6 turns they should finish in 6 turns. If they're late there should be some consideration.

Also from Daghie regarding military strengths. I see no problem sharing this with them. I think it's about time we let them know about our plans with Saber. It would be great if we could figure out a way to drain Saber's bank by having them pay GONG for techs.

Hi Whompie, I was wondering if you guys would be willing to share some info about the relative strenght of our mutual opponents and how that has developed since you met them? Living on the dark side of the Meleet makes it hard to plan future military actions and you could maybe enlighten us a bit.

All Best
N

Tubby Rower
Jun 27, 2007, 07:47 AM
yeah I agree.. give them the info on Saber and what we know about our relative strength vs FREE & Council

Wotan
Jun 27, 2007, 08:55 AM
not much value in the figures, we are strong vs. everyone else. So it would not tell SABER anything but the fact we are stronger. :lol:

Tubby Rower
Jun 27, 2007, 09:13 AM
well at one time we weren't. So that information could be useful, but we wouldn't need to share that part. Just tell them that we are an Arnold Schwarzenegger in a room full of PeeWee Hermans

Whomp
Jun 27, 2007, 09:15 AM
Here's my pm in return.
Hi Daghie Boy,
I'm not sure how much this will help but we're strong compared to everyone.

We received your agreement and one thing I mentioned is coordinating tech speeds. One thing I remember happening last game is it didn't seem like we were able to coordinate exact times for finishes. Maybe we should stipulate something where we announce our speed to finish so each team can adjust speeds accordingly. I'd prefer we do this on the honor system but what do you think?
W

Whomp
Jun 27, 2007, 03:14 PM
Anyone have a good way to keep each of us honest on research speed? A small gold penalty per turn? Not sure how to coordinate this.
Salute and such, the mechanics of coordination is of course hard to put to print but nevertheless important. I think maybe that has to be discussed/negotiated in bits and pieces within the general agreement of cooperation? Didn't we consider some sort of agreement where the team lagging in delivery had to pay a ticket for each turn late? We're open for any suggestions on this but, as you, I'd prefer not to tangle up too much in details that has to be altered anyway when the context shifts, making it hard to live up to the treaty even with the best will in the world. Announcing ETA of techs should be be done in advance and as accurately as possible, that could maybe be stated in the treaty?
Regarding the relative strength, we have observed some shifts on F11 that made us curious. I take it you've been strong vs others since first meeting them, and still are.
Looking fwd to your re-working of the draft.

Tubby Rower
Jun 28, 2007, 05:11 AM
How about disbanding a relatively modern military unit for each turn late. That wouldn't hurt research ability and could be verified by an admin. This way research ability is not hampered yet it weakens the offending team.

this should be allow to be waived if the non-offending team agrees.

Robi D
Jun 28, 2007, 06:19 AM
But if we are not going to attack them then how does it help us? If anything it would help someone like free attacked gong.

A simple 20g per turn is reasonable. A simple way to avoid it is not over promising. If we think 7 turns is possible but cutting it fine then say 8.

Whomp
Jul 01, 2007, 09:01 PM
OK let's return it with a 20gpt penalty if teams don't finish when they say they will.

Wotan
Jul 02, 2007, 12:55 AM
I guess we should ask them if there is anything they can do to speed up the GLib build, SABER sure looks like they are frantically trying to complete something in their coastal town. It is now size 12. They still lack Literacy though but that could soon change

Whomp
Jul 02, 2007, 10:06 AM
My pm to 'Cane.
Casey,

Just so you're aware Saber has been loading workers into Georgetown since it's size 12 now and the capital is starving at size 7. We're wondering if they're planning to finish the Glib reasonably soon. They still don't have lit but that may be a diversion. How close are you guys?

B
Should be 4 turns, maybe 5. There are 326 shields in the box, and I will try to put the thing on Weight Watchers and see if we can produce some extra shields. Civassist is jacked up on my comp or I would be able to tell you exactly. Saber with GL is bad for both of us!

ThERat
Jul 02, 2007, 05:13 PM
I need to ask again. Saber is using the palace as a prebuild. I always thought at this stage with this few towns, the palace will only give 300/400 shields needed. Am I missing something here?

Tubby Rower
Jul 03, 2007, 04:26 AM
this few towns? we are 3rd or 4th in land area. So almost everyone else has more than us. What is the formula for price of palace vs # of cities?

Wotan
Jul 04, 2007, 06:18 AM
From GONG:
Investigate and treaty...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hey guys, we'll be glad to help w/ the bill to investigate the Sabre city.

It was another turn w/o any notification that the GLib was gone so that's good. We have 4 turns of building left. It will pop on turn 112.

Prior to the GLib coming in the Gong Gang would like to settle on the treaty.
__________________

Whomp
Jul 04, 2007, 07:35 AM
I think the treaties ready to go with a 20gpt add on for lateness on tech research. I told JB in a pm our fate is sealed on the Glib.

Whomp
Jul 04, 2007, 12:33 PM
Are we good to go on this? Any other adjustments? I added the penalty for slow research. If we're good could someone apply the bunny seal.

THE GONG BABES TREATY

Rules of the House

Military:

No Fighting
-Teams Gong and Babes will live in peace and not take any miltary action towards each other, nor will they in any other way support a third party in conflict with the other part in this treaty.

No Gatecrashing
-Entering each others territory is prohibited unless the other part accepts the visit. Visitors are required to announce type and number of units before entering.

Techs:


Spead the gossip
-Teams Gong and Babes will collaborate in research of new technologies. No third team is to be part of this collaboration unless teams Gong and Babes both agree on that. There will be a discussion regarding tech speed going into each tech. Any delay per the discussion will equal to lump sum 20g per turn of delay.

There's a tab set up behind the bar

-Negotiations on details will take place whenever the situation calls for it. If teams cannot agree in negotiations, the tech part of the treaty may be nullified in all, alternatively put on hold until an agreement can be reached.

Rescourses:

Share and share alike
-When possible, teams Gong and Babes will share rescourses needed for optimal development of our civs. No luxury/rescourse is to be denied the other part as long as an agreed payment for it can be carried out.
-Trading luxes/rescourses with third party is only allowed if both teams agree.

Duration:

Lock in lasts till dawn

This treaty is valid from the date that both teams have sealed it.
It will last until both teams are the last ones standing.
This treaty can otherwise only be canceled if (1) both teams agree on doing so, or (2) if one side delibriatly violates it.

gmaharriet
Jul 04, 2007, 12:48 PM
Awwww, that sounds so sweet and cozy. Besides the "bunny" seal, it should also be sealed with a K.I.S.S. :p

Whomp
Jul 05, 2007, 07:41 AM
If no one has an aversion to this I'd like to send it off today.

Tubby Rower
Jul 05, 2007, 07:49 AM
yeah. I'm still not happy about the last paragraph but not enough to delay things jsut for that

The 20g per turn should read a lump sum of 20 G per turn delayed, correct?

Whomp
Jul 05, 2007, 08:05 AM
Edited. All we need is to send it off.

Kickbooti
Jul 05, 2007, 08:13 AM
yeah. I'm still not happy about the last paragraph but not enough to delay things jsut for that

The 20g per turn should read a lump sum of 20 G per turn delayed, correct?

I wouldn't worry about that too much. I think we could argue that a couple one-tile islands could not be defined as 'standing,' it would be 'lying on life support' and therefore not a violation of the treaty. ;)

Wotan
Jul 05, 2007, 03:20 PM
from GONG, they have the extremely irritating (nicest word I could find for my feelings) attitude about being in a position to once again disrupt tech transfers and carry out deals already in place. I find the "treaty" to be less important than the word we have given them. Stupid bastards!"!!!!!! No thanks, they say. When we have supplied them with a quick entry into MA. Oh, how I regret us starting this cooperation. They are simply to stupid to work with in my opinion. First the Rick chaos then this. Is there no end to their stupidity?????????
Hi there Babes
Some of us Gongers are beginning to make up stories about your apperently vague interest in inking a deal with us. Some even say there is a hidden agenda behind that, an agenda that in no way plays in Gongers favour. Very much not so, some say. In fact we're about to send a lot of Gongers to the south coast just look out over the ocean to see if you've fallen asleep. This is not good because they would be of better use as MP's (The Beer Pyramid effect. People are zonked y'know).
To put an end to thees fantasies we require a written response to our suggested treaty. You've had 1 week to put something together and have produced zip and nothing besides "Ooops, sorry". The quality of team Babes players is far beyond that.
From our point of view, the treaty must be signed and sealed by both teams before further trading take place (first stop Mono for Feud) or we will concider your silence a "No Thanks" from Babes.

Best
Daghie, Behind the Beer Kit


EDIT: They'd better give us Mono this turn, not another Rick episode please. make sure to tell this this and use simple words so they have a chance to understand it.

BCLG100
Jul 05, 2007, 04:17 PM
We have taken awhile so i can see their PoV however its quite annoying and i figure we should get that treaty off likety split.

Whomp
Jul 05, 2007, 04:38 PM
Well we either make our way with these guys or Saber because the other two are obviously deeply together. What does everyone think? I don't see any other choice.

BCLG100
Jul 05, 2007, 04:48 PM
Well we have to stick with them really, we're already too prepared against saber to go any other way. Not only that but saber seem to be the most backward+best UU. Whilst i also feel turning on Gong is flirting with the idea of Dishonour i dont really like.

ThERat
Jul 05, 2007, 05:11 PM
I think they are simply irritated why we take so long to reply. Can we send the treaty back now to get them feel at ease?
We have no choice but to stick with them and take out Saber soon. I hope we can smoothen things and they finish the GL which should be in about 2 turns, isn't it?

Tubby Rower
Jul 05, 2007, 06:59 PM
Whomp./.. smooth things over with them.. coo in their ears.. all that other stuff you do. The other option is to kill them next and take the GLib

Whomp
Jul 06, 2007, 08:05 AM
OK I can't send the treaty back by email till later. Should I just pm it without our bunny signature and tell them to look it over and send it back for signature?

Tubby Rower
Jul 06, 2007, 08:09 AM
yes.. PM (10 chars)

Whomp
Jul 08, 2007, 05:40 PM
There's a pdf with the signatures and all in the gmail.
Here's how it reads.
THE GONG BABES TREATY
Rules of the HouseMilitary:No Fighting-Teams Gong and Babes will live in peace and not take any miltary action towards each other, nor will they in any other way support a third party in conflict with the other part in this treaty.

No Gatecrashing-Entering each others territory is prohibited unless the other part accepts the visit. Visitors are required to announce type and number of units before entering.

Techs:Spead the gossip-Teams Gong and Babes will collaborate in research of new technologies. No third team is to be part of this collaboration unless teams Gong and Babes both agree on that. There will be a discussion regarding tech speed going into each tech. Any delay per the discussion will equal to lump sum 20g per turn of delay. There's a tab set up behind the bar

-Negotiations on details will take place whenever the situation calls for it. If teams cannot agree in negotiations, the tech part of the treaty may be nullified in all, alternatively put on hold until an agreement can be reached.

Rescourses:Share and share alike-When possible, teams Gong and Babes will share rescourses needed for optimal development of our civs. No luxury/rescourse is to be denied the other part as long as an agreed payment for it can be carried out. -Trading luxes/rescourses with third party is only allowed if both teams agree.Duration:Lock in lasts till dawn.

This treaty is valid from the date that both teams have sealed it. It will last until both teams are the last ones standing. This treaty can otherwise only be canceled if (1) both teams agree on doing so, or (2) if one side delibriatly violates it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Page 2
The Babes and our stamp of approval.The Gongers stamp of approval

Tubby Rower
Jul 08, 2007, 06:05 PM
so why does everyone think that we need seals on stuff. I guess MIA and their infernal Photoshopping will live forever :grrr:

Beorn-eL-Feared
Jul 17, 2007, 09:13 AM
Well it seems I am more known than knowledgeable: here's a pm I just got and the information-stripped, though actually honest, reply. I clumsily left the door open for the possibility of further communications. With some luck we could make something out of this. I'll volunteer to be an instrument of diplomatic war, but it might suck if you leave it to my good judgement. I'm open to suggestions and directives for further replies, as well as completely engineered texts.

Hiya BeF,

I saw you lurking the MTDG thread and then noted you're on the Babe team os I thought I would say hi.

I've been back and forth w/ Whomp furiously since about turn 90. I hope you're actively participating in the Babe strategy because this is an interesting map w/ some interesting dynamics.

Best Regards,

jbHeya big ogre,

It is a very interesting map indeed, with a huge lot of potential. Regrettably, I have travelled a bit earlier this summer, then moved houses July 1st and just got internet again so I'm quite a bit out of the loop - but I'm catching up.

A shame about the fury w/ Whomper, I must say I never really met the dark side of his mod'ness.

Bestester salutations,
B

Tubby Rower
Jul 17, 2007, 10:02 AM
I think that jb was meaning furiously as in "quite a lot" instead of furiously as in "I'm killin me a cow tonight!!"

Beorn-eL-Feared
Jul 17, 2007, 01:36 PM
Indeed:

Just a point of clarification... Whomp and I have been communication in a whirlwind fashion, rapidly zipping PM’s back and forth. The communication has been very good with a minimum of actual fury/upset’edness.

So I haven't seen Whomp's dark-side. Maybe just the side that's a bit shaded.

Frankly it seems most of the fury is being saved up for Saber but that’s just my assumption. I think it’s a good one, but still just an assumption.
So what manner of disinformation should follow, regarding SABER ?

Whomp
Jul 17, 2007, 01:52 PM
I think they realize we're on our way to pounding them so I don't think it matters too much. Our manifest destiny is sealed now! :dance:

Beorn-eL-Feared
Jul 17, 2007, 03:38 PM
I think they realize we're on our way to pounding them so I don't think it matters too much. Our manifest destiny is sealed now! :dance:
That's the spirit [party]

Still, if I may prod the diplomats around, this is an opportunity that would be botched if you let me have a casual hey, hi, hello talk with jb.

Whomp
Jul 20, 2007, 12:12 PM
Random thoughts by Jackjb1964Handey...I think we're on the same page here. What governments is everyone in? I forgot.
I'm just recalling that Council announced going medieval on turn 97 and here we are now just past turn 115.

Council, being Korean, is Scientific & Commercial. So, did they switch to Feud on 97 or just announced getting in the MI? Anyway, I'm not positive they switched to Feud but they did mention that worker loads had doubled so I'm assuming they did.

Team Free is Sumerian and therefore, Scientific & Agricultural. Hmmm, first time I realized that two scientifics are teamed up.

Anyway, if Council was up and running w/ Feud on 97 then they and Free have had 17 turns in the Middle ages with one or two free techs. Let's assume 2 freebies (both getting Feud or Eng is only a 22% chance) and we know that one wasn't Mono but that Council now has had it for at least 4 turns.

Therefore, starting on Eng & Feud there's 5 techs to MilTrad (inclusive). And since it's linear, at a minimum of 4 turns a pop, they're at most through Metal. If they're at a 5 turn clip then they're just past Chem. Hand-waiving analysis around here is that they're not past Chem.

Well, we think our play is to sit on our butts and let the FC axis come to us either by suicide galley or after they're on Astro or if the situation demands.

Random thoughts of a madman....

Cubbies are 6 over .500. Not bad. Maybe they'll play to the level of their payroll.

Whomp
Jul 31, 2007, 06:37 PM
Just a discussion about where our team's head is at...
jb1964 says:
Sup?
Whomp says:
Hey
Whomp says:
talking to Admiral Kutzov!
jb1964 says:
Wut team?
Whomp says:
back from the dead
Whomp says:
he says he's banned from the MTDG
Whomp says:
he was on KISS

jb1964 says:
ah, by his wife or the PTB's
jb1964 says:
?
Whomp says:
Rik
Whomp says:
i call bs
Whomp says:
hehe
jb1964 says:
bummer, musta been an interesting infraction
Whomp says:
nah
Whomp says:
he just had his moments with Donsig
Whomp says:
some pretty heated talks
jb1964 says:
was it the MoM momnet?
Whomp says:
just typical Donsig BS
jb1964 says:
k
Whomp says:
provacation in the UN threads
Whomp says:
btw...
Whomp says:
here's the story on the admins
jb1964 says:
all ears
Whomp says:
RM said it's legal
Whomp says:
maybe leaving one space open would be ok
Whomp says:
as if we're going to run through a gauntlet of death
jb1964 says:
legal to put up a 100% blockade?
Whomp says:
our team is considering retiring
jb1964 says:
What sorta death could Sabre muster?
Whomp says:
hold on one minute
Whomp says:
ok back
Whomp says:
we'll try one other thing i think
Whomp says:
attack council
Whomp says:
if they're blocking then i think we'll resign
Whomp says:
council makes sense since it might force free to share techs
jb1964 says:
Is FREE off the menu?
Whomp says:
they're researching lower
Whomp says:
that's what we both need
Whomp says:
if they haven't shared then it forces them to
Whomp says:
or council's in for a world of hurt
jb1964 says:
Well, we can see that FREE has Engineering and Theo..
Whomp says:
theo too?
jb1964 says:
ya, that's as far as we can see by playing around w/ CAII
Whomp says:
let me look at the save
Whomp says:
i have to say the balloon has burst on our team
jb1964 says:
well buddy, as I mentioned in my note, Free's average to us
Whomp says:
morale is really low
Whomp says:
we're strong to everyone for awhile
Whomp says:
I'm not sure what to tell ya buddy but our team has no interest in playing with nothing happening for 100+ turn (= at least a year)
jb1964 says:
well, if everyone's blocking then it will be pretty boring
Whomp says:
no one wants to deal with that
Whomp says:
and then you have to have marines and a massive stack of them
Whomp says:
forts
Whomp says:
blockades
Whomp says:
big cities...
jb1964 says:
forts and infantry would make it impossible
jb1964 says:
Did Wotan send us any contacts?
jb1964 says:
blinked out
Whomp says:
no probs
Whomp says:
no he didn't
Whomp says:
i presume free will send council though
jb1964 says:
ya, that would be the obvious play
Whomp says:
the problem with making this an issue is the element of surprise is gone
Whomp says:
polls up on whether to retire
jb1964 says:
so F&C has gotten the warning form Saber
Whomp says:
what's the use?
Whomp says:
one opening?
Whomp says:
give me a break that's a joke
jb1964 says:
I didn't know that Council would have the same setup
Whomp says:
not sure they do
jb1964 says:
well, let Saber wallow in backwardness and we can kill them in 100 turns
jb1964 says:
see what the other targets look like and then call it a day if needed
Whomp says:
that's what i said in the poll
Whomp says:
this sucks
Whomp says:
i love rik's maps but he kind of screwed up on this
jb1964 says:
I wonder what the thought process was here
Whomp says:
well he's experienced enough to know that a block was possible
Whomp says:
i'm positive if we knew it was an arch map we would've discussed the possibility
Whomp says:
i'm sorry for bringing this news but i'm not sure what to say
Whomp says:
if we resign should we gift contact to saber so you have a partner?
jb1964 says:
If you resign I imagine your territory figures prominately into Rik's master plan....
jb1964 says:
I can only imaging that the game could come to a screeching halt
jb1964 says:
let's cross that bridge if it come to it....
Whomp says:
i know and that sucks
Whomp says:
well the poll just went up and it's 2-1 to resign
Whomp says:
i know at least three others will say resign
jb1964 says:
Go friggin' attack F or C for kicks and then bail....
Whomp says:
that's what i said
jb1964 says:
That wouldn't go over too well
jb1964 says:
but it would still be fun
Whomp says:
the problem is with saber we had a 1 turn reinforce with a ship chain
Whomp says:
that's gone with council
jb1964 says:
I applaud your planning
Whomp says:
i'll make the case for attacking them but i want to let you guys know where our teams head is at
jb1964 says:
no prob....
jb1964 says:
I need to bolt and pick up my younger boy at soccer conditioning....
Whomp says:
ok
Whomp says:
Bye JB

Whomp says:
cubs lost last night fyi
Whomp says:
heheh
jb1964 says:
ya, Milwaukee's on a slide
jb1964 says:
that's keeping them in it
jb1964 says:
adios whomper
Whomp says:
bye buddy
Whomp says:
like you i'm out on work access so it will be at night
Whomp says:
for communications

Whomp
Aug 02, 2007, 06:10 PM
Kane says Free only has around 20 warriors based on GONG being average to Free.
Nothing but vengence here but I'd love to stick Donsig right where the sun don't shine.
Casey says:
so whats the deal on this mtdg?
Whomp says:
we'll move on
Casey says:
i was rather shocked to see that thread
Whomp says:
i just hope i can keep some of the "wood" on our team engaged
Whomp says:
in hindsight it would've been hard to retire
Whomp says:
we would've completely screwed you guys by doing it
Whomp says:
our view is one of us MUST win.
Casey says:
yeah
Whomp says:
or both but we can cross that bridge
Casey says:
so what are the options, we were a bit taken aback that you guys hadnt consulted with us
Casey says:
i have a screenie of free's capital, those jokers are still building settlers
Whomp says:
well it's just in the last couple turns
Casey says:
why not attack them?
Whomp says:
i've suggested turning it into all war
Casey says:
they are average to us which means they dont have jack but 20 warriors or so
Whomp says:
sink all their ships
Whomp says:
I'm up for that
Whomp says:
question is whether Council is the better option without lower half techs
Casey says:
well what have you guys discussed?
Casey says:
and is council weaker than FREE?
Whomp says:
we're trying to culture Saber to death
Whomp says:
lib
Whomp says:
temple, coll and cath
Whomp says:
and try for a flip
Casey says:
umm...
Whomp says:
totally random
Whomp says:
but in the meantime i checked the save
Whomp says:
we're 13 turns from us to council
Whomp says:
i should check free
Whomp says:
i want to sink all their shipping
Whomp says:
turn it into a map knowledge game
Whomp says:
we'd share with you guys of course
Casey says:
hmm Culture Plan I have serious doubts about to be honest. If free is 6-7 moves away, that has to be your best option. Sabre is to your east right?
Whomp says:
NE
Whomp says:
1 turn ship chain
Casey says:
SE is free?
Whomp says:
same turn ship chain actually
Casey says:
SW i mean
Whomp says:
let me look real quick
Whomp says:
got a minute?
Casey says:
sure
Whomp says:
i posted in the thread btw
Casey says:
do you have an updated screenshot of FREE's capital (and can we share it, Im pretty sure we can)
Whomp says:
i think we already gave a map so i'd say we can
Casey sends:


Whomp says:
i can't get pics on IM...i need to figure out my virus settings it seems
Whomp says:
can you email it?
Casey says:
yeah
Whomp says:
team.babe@gmail.com
Casey says:
its sent
Casey says:
do you not have many active people?
Whomp says:
we're a good 8 turns from free
Casey says:
thats not far
Casey says:
they are average to us, which means you will kill them off easy
Casey says:
they do have horse-iron access
Whomp says:
we know they're not blocking too
Whomp says:
what are you finding about the map?
Casey says:
yeah i mean, everyone probably has discussed the blocking and whether to do it or not. we discussed it earlier and just decided to funnel a landing somewhere convenient for slaughter
Casey says:
NOT a total block
Whomp says:
all the teams have iron and horses x you for horses
Casey says:
yes, and FREE and ourselves had/have hella jungle to remove. did you mvoe your settler at the start? we established an embassy last turn
Casey says:
why dont we send some boats up there to distract FREE from one side while you come at the other
Whomp says:
let me propose it
Whomp says:
the culture thing is completely random
Whomp says:
we're not nearly in position to hit them like council though
Casey says:
like sabre you mean?
Whomp says:
council
Whomp says:
council and saber are close to each other
Casey says:
i thought you said council was 13 moves away?
Casey says:
turns i mean
Whomp says:
council is 3 and 13
Whomp says:
we have units at saber that can get there faster because they're all by saber
Casey says:
so why not attack council if your units are there?
Whomp says:
we made peace for 12
Whomp says:
stupid in hindsight
Casey says:
12... turns?
Whomp says:
190 iirc
Casey says:
turn 190???
Whomp says:
129 sorry
Casey says:
looks like DONSIG has entered the building
Casey says:
in your thread
Whomp says:
i see that...
Whomp says:
. .. .. .. . him
Casey says:
ha he is a troll. so who wanted/wants to quit? just wotan or you too? its not just losing our allies, it will suck not having you guys around for shits and giggles. then the only ones to deal with are the donsigs of the world
Whomp says:
basically everyone
Whomp says:
bclg and kickbooti said no
Casey says:
i would at least backstab council or us before quitting
Whomp says:
i said with a contingency
Casey says:
you know ?
Whomp says:
we won't backstab you
Casey says:
well screw council, backstab em, they have donsig on their team so they deserve it
Whomp says:
that might be tough but i consider this AW now
Casey says:
well you guys want to win. i understand the hatred of saber from last time around. but switching to plan b seems easy, and whacking weak civs is always fun with mounties and knights eh?
Whomp says:
agreed
Whomp says:
we've got pikes and MI too
Casey says:
so thats why the quitting thing was VERY surprising
Whomp says:
our fear is everyone was doing the same tactic
Casey says:
if you guys get to Free or council's shores, and they have done that as well, then hell yes I would say screw this
Whomp says:
chamnix blocking comment is bs too
Whomp says:
he had bombers
Whomp says:
there's no bombers within range here
Casey says:
but, in my very humble and useless opinion, you have a HUGE army and can kill anyone right now so thats fun and will continue to get more fun the more war you make . We can help you as best we can in all departments, hell we will give you some cities if that keeps you in the game
Casey says:
yes, when they had done the same . .. .. .. . before
Casey says:
and here continents arent 2 tiles away from each other
Whomp says:
i think our team will come around
Casey says:
well good, i wouldnt really want to continue with just playing the other teams, BABE personalities are the only ones i enjoy
Whomp says:
i hear you and that wasn't discussed enough
Casey says:
well heading out to dinner bernie. i hope everything works out. its always my pleasure

You have failed to receive file "Free.jpg" from Casey.

Whomp says:
ok see ya

ThERat
Aug 02, 2007, 07:34 PM
ok, hell ya, I agree, let's screw those guys...let's attack one of them. Backstab Council would be fine with me as it is surely within the possibilities of the game. Or was backstabbing banned? I don't think so.

But, what about WW if we go into an AW sort of mode? Republic ain't that hot for AW. Communism a bit far off to the future.

Whomp
Aug 02, 2007, 07:41 PM
Backstabbing is not against the rules. It comes down to whether we'd abide by our agreements. I've always felt one should honor their agreements and I've never broken one. I'm torn on that so someone could try to convince me since I'm more of a SG guy than a HOF or GOTM guy.

On WW who said we have to declare? My theory is let them try to boot us while we build a stack on one of their lands. Regarding the other teams it would simply be sinking their boats or blocking them in deep waters. I'm not sure that would entail a lot of WW.

Beorn-eL-Feared
Aug 02, 2007, 08:28 PM
No WW whatsoever when we force block, little WW over time if we lose battles IIRC - either way non-invasive plans aren't WW intensive.

ThERat
Aug 02, 2007, 08:45 PM
I didn't know you were suggesting a passive setup..of course WW won't be a problem.

I actually would like us to drop off the stack of MW etc and then attack them and take/raze their towns as soon as we can. Let them feel the pain and sink their SS dreams

gmaharriet
Aug 03, 2007, 03:43 AM
On WW who said we have to declare? My theory is let them try to boot us while we build a stack on one of their lands.

Oh, I LOVE this idea! If they cannot boot us, it would mean they'd have to declare and we'd get the war happiness. :evil:

Robi D
Aug 03, 2007, 05:19 AM
Despite what Chams said i get the feeling the war happiness thing only works in despotism and not republic?

gmaharriet
Aug 03, 2007, 05:39 AM
Despite what Chams said i get the feeling the war happiness thing only works in despotism and not republic?

Unless there is a significant difference between single- and multi-player, war happiness should work in republic. I think it's monarchy, which has no war weariness either, that has no war happiness effect. I most often use republic in my solo games, and the happiness effect certainly works then.

Beorn-eL-Feared
Aug 03, 2007, 06:00 AM
WH is the effect of a negative WW value. No WW governments only cancel the effects of positive WW. All governments have some scaling of the amount of happy/unhappy depending on your amount of WW points, from a lot to none, but none is only for positive. They all give you WH so long as you maintain negative WW.

Whomp
Aug 03, 2007, 04:53 PM
To add to theory of a landing we could land units on Council since we have peace till turn 129. We aren't breaking any agreements by doing this.

Wotan
Aug 04, 2007, 01:41 AM
I think I would rather keep within the "normal" interpretation of a peacetreaty and landing while it is in effect is at least in my view a breach of it. We have been called some ugly things and not too many of them have been mature in their critique but i do think we can keep our heads high if we continue to play "almost" fairly. There are only 10 turns left on the treaty, next turn we play is 119, I sent Ships towards Go'Go's last turn and we could see how the community react when we get a couple of tiles on their mainland, demand they remove them and then... Should we be extra lucky with culture, SABER is lower in overall culture too, then we can play it out as originally planned. It is a question of waiting just until we are allowed by the current treaty. We continue building at home and send a stack of ships (next stack) on FREE.

Beorn-eL-Feared
Aug 04, 2007, 07:30 AM
Culture wars at Go Go is expensive, inefficient and unreliable imho. While the peace treaty is still in action, it did not include passage considerations - which it should have if they wanted their homeland to be exclusive. I'm quite for the Council landing plan.

Whomp
Aug 04, 2007, 08:29 AM
One reason we may want to do this is to set precedent. If this becomes public and everyone's against us it means when our cultural expands onto Saber then they'd be doing the same as us and they should be removed from our lands.

Wotan
Aug 15, 2007, 12:54 PM
From Killercane:
Do you want us to send some galleys up to Free with your galleys, and try to spur tech trade between FreeCouncil this way?

Whomp
Aug 15, 2007, 06:48 PM
He was also wondering what our galley was doing in their territory. I think we agreed to talk when we go into each other's territories so I don't think they see it as a big deal.

Whomp
Aug 15, 2007, 08:12 PM
I think Killercane wants to send boats to Free so Council and Free might be forced to share lower half techs. Maybe we should lead them with our galley there.

Wotan
Aug 16, 2007, 02:11 AM
Should we go via the resource island north of GONG? I sure hope they have found it BTW. I'll move the Galley towards it.

Beorn-eL-Feared
Aug 17, 2007, 02:42 PM
Sorry for crashing in with an irrelevant question (do I ever do anything else?(wait, that too was an irrelevant question)) but I opened the save and saw everyone was a republic but Gong, which are FEUDAL. What's up with Feudalism? Have they all not read AK's Feudal SG?

Wotan
Aug 20, 2007, 04:27 PM
Hot off the presses, my immediate respone prior to discussion first then their post. Not the most brilliant suggestion I guess? They should know better after what has happened to include SABER in anything that has us as part of the plan...
I noticed this mail and though I do not speak for the team now i think it is safe to say that this will not go down nicely among BABEs. We only stayed in the game so as to possibly act as Kingmakers and sort of make sure you had a better than average chance at winning, We are going to wreak havok among Council in a few turns (hopefully) and have asked for an extension to talk things over about how to speed this up. One idea woudl be to ask you to build Galleys and GS/MI and send to FREE. In time for you to take the leap across from the resource island north to FREE we would transfer possession of The GLH so you can do it risk free. later, when our forces on Council islnad has expired to be a force to use we would sell our total assets for 1 gold or any price you find to be more reasonable.

But should SABER now enter the picture that sole purpose we percive will disappear so everything is put in a very awkward position I guess. We do not wish to have anything to do with them that is absolutely positively something i am sure about and feel I can say swithout any need to confer with the team. But should they be invited into teh warmth again it sure require a lot of discussions and please be advised the outcome might not be positive.

Wotan


On 8/20/07, niklas greback <go.gongshow@gmail.com> wrote:
Hey Partners,

Although we here in Gongdom think Saber's tactic to block their shores was fairly cheap it's not deterring us from working with them however we can to counter the AoD.

Saber has asked for contact w/ Free and I think we'll be able to accommodate them the next time around.

I would like to propose that we work out a long'ish term peace treaty w/ Saber that would include the following...

Bring them up to technological parity w/ us.
Share in researching new techs equally.
Provide their free tech as we enter new ages free of charge.
Freely trade luxuries at 1 to 1 w/o markups.
Agree to join prohibition to provide AoD any material support whatsoever.
Treaty will have an end date and termination provisions and will not be a treaty until the end of days.

We could try and get them to pay a premium for sucking but I would think they would just go to the AoD w/ the proposal and ask for a better deal.

We're on the cusp of seeing a race to Astro while teams Gong and Babe have two tiers to research. We may have the better infrastructure and/or forces but I would like to reach Astro first and still have a source for the lower teir.

Nothing says ya'll can't still despise these goobs and still look to the future when the AoD is dead or wounded and the BaG (Babe and Gong) can again isolate Saber and deal with them at our leisure.

Without your consent we'll still try and utilize Saber but I think they're only utility would be as a footstool.

Last thought... should an unseen force tear into either Free or Council the AoD will look to cut Saber a deal to regain the edge. I would like to take that option out of their hands should such a catastrophe come to pass.

Thoughts?

jb, Gong's official rambling fool... :p

Wotan
Aug 20, 2007, 04:33 PM
This is from our agreement with GONG, I cannot understand how they even think we would agree to this and the "Without your concent we'll..." is bloody abusive I think. So they plan to go ahead even if we do not say yes and in breach of our agreement????
-Teams Gong and Babes will collaborate in research of new technologies. No third team is to be part of this collaboration unless teams Gong and Babes both agree on that.
I am absolutely against it so my vote is cast, NAY!

ThERat
Aug 20, 2007, 06:44 PM
I agree that we should not get into any deals with Saber. Honestly, what can they achieve with their uber-unit cost and lousy government? Let's take on Free and Council and once they suffer, Saber has nobody to support them.

Wotan
Aug 21, 2007, 07:39 PM
From Council to GONG
Hiya guys...

I've been chattting up The Council about possible treaty/trades (all bogus) and this is what I got in return...

Need to follow up w/ you re: Glight sharing later.


Quote:
Dear jb,

We appreciate the candor in your last letter. Your proposal isn't very appealing to us – but it may very well serve as a starting point for more meaningful talks.

The gold you offered us on the tech – 25% of current/trade value seems awfully stingy, especially for a Feudal government that, as you've noted, has less need of gold.

We've crafted 3 Alternate Proposals for you to consider.

In all cases, our offer is the same – We'll give the secret of Invention [indirectly, if needed], and agree to a guaranteed peace treaty for 40 turns.

In return, we'd like:
Option A:
40% of the Monopoly Beaker Cost of Invention = 528 gold
Treaty agreement to not then sell or trade Invention to anyone.
Treaty agreement to not attack or materially support anyone in an
attack on The Council or team FREE for 40 turns.

Option B:
60% of the Monopoly Beaker Cost of Invention = 792 gold
NO restrictions on selling or trading Invention to anyone.
Treaty agreement to not attack or materially support anyone in an
attack on The Council or team FREE for 40 turns.

Option C:
GONG researches Music Theory immediately after getting
Education, and then immediately upon discovery gives it to The Council
GONG agrees to forgo building of JS Bach's Cathedral
Treaty agreement to not then sell or trade Music to anyone – but
allowing trading of Invention
Treaty agreement to not attack or materially support anyone in an
attack on The Council or team FREE for 40 turns.

Any of those catch your fancy?

All the best,
General_W, speaking with the voice of The Council

Wotan
Sep 15, 2007, 09:06 AM
From GONG:
Re: MTDG

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Oh and another update: Free was strong to us, but after building a Longbow, some spears, and warriors, they are average again. So... they should be on the upper 20% end of 21 warriors, and a few spears and archery units. We can give a more exact calc if you can find time to invade.

We dont know whether we should upgrade and invade council with you or concentrate on Free. Would you prefer us poking around in weak spots too on Council?

Whomp
Sep 15, 2007, 09:42 AM
I'd think concentrating on Free would be a better option. We have the upper hand on the seas with Council so they'll have to scramble either way.

Wotan
Sep 24, 2007, 03:16 PM
From GONG:
Saber has approached us about buying tech from us rather than Council. Council is offering 33% of monopoly tech value for Education. We can probably sell for 25% of value and split the gold with you. What is your take on this? They also say they can provide Banking in exchange for something.

Whomp
Sep 24, 2007, 04:51 PM
Hmm...I'd be inclined to consider it to destabilize Council.

Beorn-eL-Feared
Sep 24, 2007, 05:14 PM
Building an internal conflict on their side would cause more damage than the good it would do saber, that is for sure.

Whomp
Sep 28, 2007, 04:56 PM
I told JB to go ahead and trade. Here's the outcome.
The total came out to 1400g,

As we get payments we'll send you the 50% cut.

I would like to put a peace treaty in place w/ Saber for the next 40 turns or so to concentrate on FREE. Any objections?

jb

Robi D
Sep 29, 2007, 01:17 AM
It all looks good to me. If gong can put pressure on free then we can just keep hammering the council

Wotan
Sep 29, 2007, 01:59 AM
Question is if a deal between GONG/SEBER is not opening up an attack on us by SABER. So if GONG/SABER has peace deal that should be dependent on peace between SABER and us. GONG cannot be allied with us and have peace with SABER if they attack us. A peace deal with SABER would require GONG to have a defense pact with us.

Whomp
Sep 29, 2007, 07:02 AM
We can let GONG know that they should communicate with Saber that any war against us would be a big problem for Saber since we have a mutual defense pact iirc.

We could also sign a peace deal with Saber, as distasteful as it sounds, too.

Robi D
Sep 29, 2007, 06:56 PM
We can let GONG know that they should communicate with Saber that any war against us would be a big problem for Saber since we have a mutual defense pact iirc.

We could also sign a peace deal with Saber, as distasteful as it sounds, too.

I guess its time to be pragmatic about it and get a deal with Saber. That way we can go and kill free and council, then we can deal with saber after that.

Beorn-eL-Feared
Sep 29, 2007, 07:22 PM
If we go with Robi's idea, which I'm far from being against, I'd take the occasion for a 6-incher (if you don't play hockey, I can explain that one later) on SABER and mention that playing as an agent swapping between either side is dangerous business. This thing is an act of good will, but we can't just let our guard down like that.

Whomp
Sep 29, 2007, 08:15 PM
My pm exchange with JB.
The total came out to 1400g,

As we get payments we'll send you the 50% cut.

I would like to put a peace treaty in place w/ Saber for the next 40 turns or so to concentrate on FREE. Any objections?

jb

JB,

I can't remember but do we have a defense pact? If we do can you make Saber aware that they shouldn't monkey around with our plans and attack us.

If we don't we should have one. Do you think we should sign a peace deal with them?

W

We Don't have a defense pact. How would that look? We agree to help each other out if landed upon? I would still like to maintain as much of the good cop/bad cop appearance that we can to take advantage at a letter date.

I was just toying w/ the idea of signing up Saber to a peace deal for 40 or so turns.

Getting Saber to leave you alone shouldn't be a problem because we're openly tech partners and if they want us to continue to undercut Council/Free then they need to not screw us over.

BTW, we got 1400g coming our way for the tech sale so you'll be getting your cut as we go.

Anyway, let's keep this thread going and come up w/ something.

jb

I'd prefer we don't have any surprises so that's my concern. Maybe I'll send them a 20 turn peace proposal.

Robi D
Sep 30, 2007, 01:43 AM
If we go with Robi's idea, which I'm far from being against, I'd take the occasion for a 6-incher (if you don't play hockey, I can explain that one later) on SABER and mention that playing as an agent swapping between either side is dangerous business. This thing is an act of good will, but we can't just let our guard down like that.

Don't play ice hockey but i think i get the meaning. We shouldn't do it on an assumption or goodwill, but put a deal in writing to keep them out of the way so we can deal with free and council.

The only thing we have to be careful of is gong teaming up with saber afterwards

Wotan
Oct 02, 2007, 09:11 AM
From jb1964:
Don't accept Education if you want to take advantage of the GLib swap....

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hey guys, I sent you Education but Cane has pointed out to me that there we were going to bestow the GLib to you to get a tech dump from Frouncil.

My question is... How long do we and CAN we wait to do this? At some point it will put us at a big disadvantage.

jb

Beorn-eL-Feared
Oct 02, 2007, 11:11 AM
I love the term Frouncil.