What good fortune. I think the BABEs will be good allies. Here is their message:

Hello Gong of the Pyramid Gongs,

Fancy meeting you guys. We've decided to take our sea expedition to view this wonderful, wonderous, wonder you've built. Rumors around Babe the pyramid is made of beer. Our ladies like beer so maybe we should schedule a time for some discussion.

Looking forward to our future together.

xxoo
Babe envoy Charlize Theron

Here's a picture of me so you recognize me.

Im thinking we should hold off on playing the save fast until we talk to them. Diplomatic messages sent to their email and a pm to Wotan.

It looks like we may have 24 hrs. before we get the turn, which gives us ~48 to get the next turn in. I think we should go ahead and talk to them. These threads for each team are certainly good ideas. Somebody should send a nice reply with pictures as RF suggested and schedule talks. I also think we should have much to offer Team Babe. Rock stars like babes.:)

EXCELLENT NEWS
I think it will be easy for me and Bugsy to ease into the Babes...camp. That is not to say we should have monopoly on Babe contact. I can write a Hello guys-draft and post later today.

Oh, I couldn't wait that long. Here goes (not sent but open for comments from you guys):

Hail Babe keepers

We are so thrilled to meet you we promptly decided to set up a temporary suit for diplomacy/chit chat/beer guzzling. To honor your mode of transportation we've placed it on a boat. For those of you familiar with Admiral K's floating device experiments this is one of his remaining gems. Luckily enough this one didn't get smouldered by the light greens. Please fill her up with Babes and we'll come sing & dance!

:beer:
Daghie of the Gongers

http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p265/dagisfroken/babeinterimembassy.jpg

The save has just been passed to Team Free. If CommandoBob stays to his usual schedule we can expect to get the save ~2 AM EST (GMT-5), but we don't know that for sure.

I've not been checking googlemail until Turn Tracker notifies us we have the save and only checked yesterday since the site was down. I think we have already sent a reply to the Babes as the following reply is in the inbox posted ~7 hours ago:

Charlize,

Dont know why you are sending me an email so soon after last night. Arent you supposed to wait 2 days? Anyways, we are always ready for a chat. Contact any of our members tonight/tomorrow so we can go about some "exchanges".


Kool and the GONG

It is a good idea, I think, for those handling Diplo to start looking in googlemail regularly as other teams might also hail us, especially after a turn is passed. Also, I suggest any communications we send to a team should be copied and posted in the respective Team Diplo threads as they are sent to keep the team informed and also not duplicate any efforts.

I'm still just a little hazy on how this works exactly, so any instructions a TP might need should also be posted in Dept. of Turnplay. I've definitely looking forward to seeing how this part of the game works.:)

Edit: I see I didn't notice that killercane already informed us that a message had bee sent.

On diplo, the Council seems to be on an alienating trip with this note in the UN:
in any case, we have issued a warning to all travelers to stay far away until the outbreak is fully controlled… we don't want to risk infection spreading overseas…
This is basically saying "Keep off of our Island because we're farming and if you show hostility we will land a bunch of A-Cav's on your buttocks"

This is a very good observation Daghie! It does seem to signal that they are at least survivalists, if not wholly isolationist. We simply don't know if this policy is a pre-determined plan or if there plans have changed in light of recent developments. With both us and the Babes having writing it might be possible to get contact with the Council soon, although I don't think they are under any obligation to reveal any contacts they may have. Imo, caution should is greatly advised when dealing with such a team as it could be disruptive to our "honor" which I think is a valuable asset to retain.

I think Gong is looking to win, but may I offer the suggestion we seek to only win with our honor intact. It is possible to mislead others about what we know, but imo it is better to just leave out what we are not ready to reveal. If asked directly, we should say something to the effect "Gong is not ready to discuss this atm" with all the style Gong can muster. These thoughts are merely suggestions and I give them only in the hopes they might be helpful to the team.:)

I think Gong is looking to win, but may I offer the suggestion we seek to only win with our honor intact. It is possible to mislead others about what we know, but imo it is better to just leave out what we are not ready to reveal. If asked directly, we should say something to the effect "Gong is not ready to discuss this atm" with all the style Gong can muster. These thoughts are merely suggestions and I give them only in the hopes they might be helpful to the team.
I agree fully! Keeping an intact honour is essential and makes it possible to go down singin' and dancin' if it comes to that. My take on the first round of negotiations w Babes is this:
1. Have fun and keep the banter personal, i.e not too much roleplaying. I know Tubby and Whomper at least prefer it that way.
2. Find out if we are the first contact they have made. In mtdg1 it was very useful to make an early alliance with a longlasting peace treaty in it. KISS and MIA arranged a colaboration that was big picture-like (peace/techs/booze) and it served us well. I suggest we aim at something similar. We should find out if Babes share this view or not. What they do know is that early wars are usually bad.
3. Sharing info is all about trust and that is a tricky thing. You have, to some extent, make a leap of faith when called for. Otherweise you will be seen as greedy/paranoid/dull and that is a bad position. Haggling is fun and recomended if done tounge in cheek.

I would assume the BABES sent galleys/curraghs out in all 4 directions, with the Lighthouse they should have all contacts rather quickly. I think they will be pretty forthcoming and good allies. Our major tradebait is the religious branch of the tech tree, it will be interesting to see how far BABE is. If we can trade everything up to Monarchy (incl. CB, myst, poly, and monarchy for their GA), 1) do we want to and 2) what do we want? I would guess they have CoL, Republic, and we know they have MM.

We might work on a deal where we give them more than they give us, and we get consideration when they tech broker to other people since they will have a lot of contacts. Such as we research Construction, in addition to the other things, and try to get them to work out a free tech deal with a scientific civ that we would get. Unlikely that that works but who knows!

Dags' message is excellent, lets send it on if it hasnt been already.

I've just sent the message, so you might expect a reply soon. I think others should handle sending and recieving messages since I'm a little technically challenged and misunderstood that it had not been sent. I can post notices that such communications are there, if that would be helpful.

If any of the ideas about Team Babes plans I've been speculating about are true, offering them a means to enable their GA should be an excellent way to form a long-lasting alliance.

It seems to me it is in the interests of both non-scientific teams for one of us to get the Library, but more discussion and consideration of this is needed. I also think it will be good to continue to seek contacts for ourselves, even though they will have the lead on this. If they are a Republic, we should definitely seek that in exchange for Monarchy, as we don't know where other teams might be on the Library. Giving Monarchy when we most likely have the means to build the HG at Sugar Mtn. is, imo, a most gracious concession. It will be even more clear how to proceed as we get more information.

I really must keep my hands off communications and will sit back to watch developments as it now appears two messages have been sent. I'll wait to see what develops before posting any more thoughts as well.

This is all very good news as this is the part of the game that I enjoy the most.

Who is our diplomatic leader?

I really must keep my hands off communications and will sit back to watch developments as it now appears two messages have been sent. I'll wait to see what develops before posting any more thoughts as well.
That is all OK in anarchy. Such things happen and not to be too sorry for. Having said that I agree we should start thinking about how to arrange the diplo work. I think it's fun and will take part, but I cannot guaratee I will be able to do it on a day to day basis.

I had a talk with Whomp tonight (well still talking). Highlights soon! A disclaimer though, I would rather not be the diplomat on a regular basis (doing it for the Civ 4 game). Who wants to do it?

Well, I do have time, but I'm pretty sure I'm not the best the team has for this. I could pick up the ball whenever daghie or others can't find time, though. I think I would like to see some examples of how communications go and a bit of advice on how it works, before I try. Looking forward to the update.

Well crap. Does anyone know how to copy an MSN conversation to clipboard from your saved conversations? I closed the window too fast.

Highlights
- BABE has Philo, CoL, Republic, MM, wheel and HBR on us (and IW). They got the free tech with philo, with which they took MM.
- We have Poly and Monarchy on them.
- They are against speeding up the scientific civs to get more use out of their UU. They are looking for a long term partner. Might be BS, might not be.
- They are in anarchy, 6 turns left out of 7.
- They are currently finishing Masonry with scientists in anarchy.
- They have horses on the island off their coast, no iron. The assumption is that we will have iron there, and no horses.
- They have 1 hut left to pop.
- They are located right south of where our curragh is, and I gave them directions to us and the second safe landing west.
-Prince Myshkin is the man in their opinion
-Wotan is really into the human vs human aspect of the game (its his first PBEM)
-We agreed on 20 turn peace and will work to come up with a satisfactory agreement.

I proposed to them that we trade techs across. This is WAY in our favor by like 500 beakers or more. However, it will allow us both 3 chances at popping a tech from the remaining huts (us-2, them-1), and if we dont get a tech, we can pay them gold in return (probably discounted I think, negotiable). We could both then be medieval by turn 100.

Do we want to do something like this? What strings do we want attached? No trade clauses without the others consent? What other deals can we broker?

Does anyone know how to copy an MSN conversation to clipboard from your saved conversations?

It took me 2 hrs. to figure out photobucket.:lol: But, I'm sure you'll get some help there.

Very nice, killercane.:goodjob: We've recently received the save and have until about ~12:00 PM EST (GMT-5) to send on the save. There is quite a bit to think about here, but a deal is certain to be made. I need to get some sleep, atm, and suggest the team post all their opinions and ideas about this proposal. I'll check back in around 4-5 PM EST to see what the team makes of this and offer any thoughts I have, before taking the next turn. There really is no "man" on team Gong, I only have more time.:)

The tech deal would be tooooo good. I haven't seen Ironhorse Island (thanks Lemmy) but striking a long term deal w Babes (no BS) would be super. The map may be set up just like that with built-in conflicts. If we and Babes can deflate ours and others don't, then we're in the drivers seat w babes which is usually a nice position.

Don't expect too much from me on the diplo front, hey I'm only just working out how to take advantage of the AI on deals. Real people like Wotan - hey I'm out of my league.

For those of you who know game theory remember Iterated prisoners dilemma. Play nice, retaliate if necessary, forgive isolated infringements, and when the time horizon is short all bets are off.

(see Robert Axelrod's "The Evolution of Cooperation" for more information)

Sorry, I do not understand the tech deal. Forgive me I am just a bloody German and my English is limited. Does "trading across" mean we get all their techs for all of ours ?

Yes, yrading techs across does mean that we would swap all available techs to each other. This would be in our favor by quite a lot so we would have to come up with a way to make the deal more even. Gold is the best way to do that.

Whomper is on the Babe team correct? I'll hang out on MSN Messanger this evening and say hello. I was a late addition to the Idiots last go around.

I'm not familiar w/ Wotan.

That deal would be really sweet then. I cross my fingers that our diplo-gongers will conclude it.:deal:

Is it really so good? - how much is republic worth to us given that we have monarchy? In my view at best half value. (I dont think we would have researched it if we hadn't found them - if we wern't religeous I would say it had no value as the chance of us switching to it would be very small).

Monarchy is still worth more to them if they want the wonder and we agree to let them have it. That makes the beaker values much closer.

I think the deal looks fair, perhaps a slight up for us, but nowhere near as much as some of you think. Securing the rights to any Iron uncontested is far more important.

Securing the rights to any Iron uncontested is far more important.

I share this opinion and giving up HG's is a good bait too. All in all it's rather win/win-ish in my :crazyeye: opinion.

Well I think of it like this:

Republic- 840, everyone will have this, incl. Sumeria. They have to trade it now to us for monarchy for HG. Really a no brainer, at least make Sumeria research it.

Poly- makes sense to try to pop this from a hut. Since we have it, its similar in cost value to MM (360).

So Monarchy/Poly for rep/MM. Even so far.

Math (240) from us for HBR and Wheel (270 total) is about even.

That leaves Philo and CoL (480 collectively) as the good faith techs, both of which would take us an easy 4 turns to research. We can offer currency for these or gold value, something like 60%-70% of the cost is what I would shoot for, like 275-300 gold. If one of us pops a good tech (construction/currency), all the better. RF is right I think its a pretty solid deal for them as well as us.

Edit: Resource distribution (if true), keeping the scientifics backward, a long term peace deal, and the map also make the 100K even more attractive!

I favour droping republic from the deal rather than paying gold. Even if that is not the decision, we can use that arguement in negotiation.

Well which deal would you prefer


Deal A
All their techs except republic for Math, Monarchy,Poly

Deal B
All their techs for Math, Monarchy,Poly plus 300 gold

Deal C
All their techs for Math, Monarchy,Poly plus currency

I prefer deal A over the other two - we can pick Republic up later if we need it, everyone will have it - 300 gold is enough gold to upgrade 3 warriors to GS's, or cash rush a library, lots of useful stuff. currency will be traded for construction if they pop one and we don't

Just to chip in a random thought: How would we approach this if we were "sure" to get the Mama Library (12 turns from now)? Having both the Pyramids and the GLib would make us an obviuos target for all teams except the one/s we're allied with. If we're shooting that way, MM would be nice for contacts but other techs maybe not so urget to get.

I've just caught up in reading the excellent discussion so far and see a lot of good points. The timing is right for a deal with Babe and we all agree one is desirable. I've just taken a look at the tech situation of both teams so far.

Beakers for Team Gong vs. Team Babe circa 710BC Turn 93

Leaving off our common techs

Team Gong: masonry(<120)+poly(360) + Monarchy(720) = <1200 beakers over Babe

Team Babe: IW(61) + the Wheel(120) + HBR(150) + CoL(300) + Philo(180) + Republic(840) + MM(Free-360value) = 1651 beakers (2011 total value) over Gong.

Despite our lead in pop. and gpt most of the game and our better gov't. and some turns of GA with the same amount of turns spent in anarchy, they have >451 more beakers than Team Gong. Since they only have one hut left, but not math, they might have popped one more tech from a hut than us for no more than 180(IW) + 30(HBR) leaving them with still >241 in total research thus far. They had potential to put galleys in the water no later than turn 53 when demographics showed a drop in literacy. Possible conclusions: they already have contacts and might have already had a shared research deal with a science team they aren't telling us about or early exploration allowed them to pop more huts. Does any of this change the teams opinions?

They mention they want to extend the life of their UU. Are they then planning war? If so, how great is this value of giving Monarchy to enable GA with GA to them? Does a partnership with them mean we must necessarily go to war as well?

Conditions on this map are favorable for a 100K just as killercane suggests, especially since these plans are sure to remain hidden for some time. The map appears to be one designed to create competition for off-shore resources, which should frustrate teams with an isolationist strategy.

But Daghie has just raised the point about GL making us a target. Somebody will/should get the GL, and the Babes should be easy to convince it is better for us to have it than a science team. Also, the GL should give us the means to alleviate tensions with any teams and help promote trade by doing more gracious deals. We will take steps for our security, but war is just too costly for the aggressor as oppesed to defense and doesn't seem a sound strategy to me.

RF raises a good point about how Republic is devalued for us now, but we really must not let the possible need for this in the future raise its cost for us. Imo, we have to have the Republic. I like this idea of Iterated prisoners dilemma and look forward to reading the article you suggest.

markh is right that we should conclude the deal and highlights how important thoughts from all team members really are. This game is sure to take much real life time and we can't always be sure when we will have the time to participate. Asking questions about your understanding of the language of discussions is helpful and we all should ask them if we are not clear, as responses from other team members like jb's help us see how clear things are to the team. This team approach is going to be our advantage I think since this is not just a human vs. human game, but a game with a large human dimension, imo.

We can resume discussions about what this new information at any time, so I've just mentioned a few thoughts to help the team to consider the different possible deals summarized by RF and look to conclude a deal soon. We still have about 6hrs to take the turn, so any instructions or advice should be posted by 11:00 PM EST (GMT-5).:)

I fixed it/figured out what I needed to do.

5/30/2007 8:58:50 PM Whomp casey j Hey Case
5/30/2007 8:59:37 PM casey j Whomp whats up buddy
5/30/2007 8:59:50 PM Whomp casey j one sec
5/30/2007 9:01:11 PM Whomp casey j What's happening?
5/30/2007 9:01:28 PM casey j Whomp fixing a bite to eat, one sec
5/30/2007 9:01:33 PM Whomp casey j ok
5/30/2007 9:04:37 PM casey j Whomp back
5/30/2007 9:04:42 PM casey j Whomp whats going on
5/30/2007 9:07:14 PM Whomp casey j brb too
5/30/2007 9:07:32 PM casey j Whomp k
5/30/2007 9:14:10 PM Whomp casey j back
5/30/2007 9:14:11 PM Whomp casey j did you like the picture i sent you guys?
5/30/2007 9:14:12 PM Whomp casey j :D
5/30/2007 9:14:28 PM casey j Whomp of course, always welcome :)
5/30/2007 9:14:38 PM casey j Whomp the BABES have an endless supply of material i surmise
5/30/2007 9:14:46 PM Whomp casey j that's for sure
5/30/2007 9:14:54 PM Whomp casey j good name for us whackos
5/30/2007 9:15:11 PM casey j Whomp well the GONGers were sure happy to see you
5/30/2007 9:15:23 PM casey j Whomp me- man i hope we meet BABE soon
5/30/2007 9:15:24 PM Whomp casey j us with you too
5/30/2007 9:15:31 PM casey j Whomp JB- lets find BABES
5/30/2007 9:15:36 PM Whomp casey j hehe
5/30/2007 9:15:39 PM Whomp casey j that's hilarious
5/30/2007 9:15:42 PM casey j Whomp Bugsy- i want the BABES
5/30/2007 9:15:46 PM casey j Whomp and then bam you appear
5/30/2007 9:15:57 PM casey j Whomp like some kinda spooky magic
5/30/2007 9:16:04 PM Whomp casey j that's so funny
5/30/2007 9:16:40 PM Whomp casey j ok AK self banned himself
5/30/2007 9:17:07 PM casey j Whomp heh
5/30/2007 9:17:09 PM Whomp casey j he doesn't want to go off on Dinsog
5/30/2007 9:17:38 PM Whomp casey j didn't his team pull another wonder blunder?
5/30/2007 9:17:39 PM casey j Whomp yeah makes sense!
5/30/2007 9:17:47 PM casey j Whomp is he on the council?
5/30/2007 9:17:50 PM Whomp casey j yep
5/30/2007 9:18:11 PM casey j Whomp i dont knwo SOZ isnt too bad, the thing is they better get Colossus soon!
5/30/2007 9:18:36 PM Whomp casey j SoZ on this map makes me wonder
5/30/2007 9:18:50 PM Whomp casey j they better manage their unit counts
5/30/2007 9:19:36 PM casey j Whomp yes ours would be bad in Republic, we were going to offer you monarchy for Rep, and trying to calculate when we should change
5/30/2007 9:19:51 PM casey j Whomp if you wanted to do a deal along those lines
5/30/2007 9:20:08 PM Whomp casey j I'll check
5/30/2007 9:20:22 PM Whomp casey j You guys could use republic i'd think
5/30/2007 9:20:37 PM Whomp casey j and the anarchy was likely pretty minimal
5/30/2007 9:21:21 PM casey j Whomp well its an improvement of like 50 gpt, but more than half of that would be eaten up by unit cost
5/30/2007 9:21:36 PM casey j Whomp so maybe after the Golden Age
5/30/2007 9:21:46 PM Whomp casey j are you fighting already?
5/30/2007 9:21:46 PM casey j Whomp what all techs do you guys have?
5/30/2007 9:21:59 PM casey j Whomp no Pyramids=instant golden age for Celts
5/30/2007 9:22:04 PM Whomp casey j ahah
5/30/2007 9:24:29 PM Whomp casey j let's see
5/30/2007 9:29:31 PM casey j Whomp we have up to monarchy, philo, lit, and are getting IW this turn I think, no math, CoL or MM.
5/30/2007 9:30:29 PM Whomp casey j we have philo, lit, CoL, MM
5/30/2007 9:30:48 PM Whomp casey j just got myst
5/30/2007 9:30:52 PM casey j Whomp wait i dont think we have philo
5/30/2007 9:30:58 PM Whomp casey j missing poly
5/30/2007 9:31:07 PM casey j Whomp you have math?
5/30/2007 9:31:14 PM Whomp casey j Nope
5/30/2007 9:31:27 PM casey j Whomp do you have any huts left to pop?
5/30/2007 9:31:33 PM Whomp casey j one this turn
5/30/2007 9:31:52 PM Whomp casey j hold on we may have maths...
5/30/2007 9:31:56 PM Whomp casey j eek
5/30/2007 9:32:10 PM Whomp casey j maths would come before poly right?
5/30/2007 9:32:15 PM Whomp casey j with a hut
5/30/2007 9:32:19 PM casey j Whomp yeah its cheaper
5/30/2007 9:32:25 PM Whomp casey j that's what I thought
5/30/2007 9:32:33 PM casey j Whomp we have 2 huts left
5/30/2007 9:33:00 PM Whomp casey j settle popping is fun
5/30/2007 9:33:03 PM Whomp casey j :D
5/30/2007 9:33:28 PM casey j Whomp my idea was we could trade across, and pop the huts and share the wealth in tech. if we dont pop a tech to make it more even, we could give you gold
5/30/2007 9:33:39 PM casey j Whomp only if we had math though
5/30/2007 9:34:00 PM Whomp casey j ok i'll have to find out
5/30/2007 9:34:02 PM casey j Whomp you have republic?
5/30/2007 9:34:22 PM Whomp casey j we do
5/30/2007 9:34:26 PM Whomp casey j we have IW
5/30/2007 9:36:17 PM casey j Whomp ah we are 2 turns from IW
5/30/2007 9:36:27 PM casey j Whomp did you get the philo free tech?
5/30/2007 9:36:33 PM Whomp casey j we did
5/30/2007 9:36:47 PM casey j Whomp nice, you took CoL?
5/30/2007 9:36:55 PM Whomp casey j we took MM
5/30/2007 9:37:20 PM casey j Whomp ah you probably have some more contacts then, or will soon with the Lighthosue
5/30/2007 9:37:36 PM Whomp casey j I think so. Have you met anyone?
5/30/2007 9:37:51 PM Whomp casey j I'll show if you show. :D
5/30/2007 9:38:00 PM casey j Whomp nope, we sent curraghs out in 4 directions, hopefully 2 will make it :)
5/30/2007 9:38:27 PM Whomp casey j Well our galley is in your way this turn
5/30/2007 9:39:50 PM casey j Whomp there looks to be a similar safe spot west of our respective positions, we can send you directions if you like
5/30/2007 9:40:24 PM Whomp casey j it looks like sea from the pic
5/30/2007 9:41:00 PM casey j Whomp where is your galley in respect to the 2 coast tiles?
5/30/2007 9:41:35 PM Whomp casey j you have a curragh on coastal and there's a coastal 1SE that we landed on
5/30/2007 9:41:49 PM casey j Whomp ah ok
5/30/2007 9:41:53 PM Whomp casey j and it's surrounded by sea tiles
5/30/2007 9:42:06 PM casey j Whomp yep theres a similar spot west that i think you can just make
5/30/2007 9:42:17 PM casey j Whomp which will probably lead to contact with someone else
5/30/2007 9:42:23 PM Whomp casey j ok
5/30/2007 9:42:25 PM Whomp casey j thanks
5/30/2007 9:42:42 PM Whomp casey j you have the coastal we're on
5/30/2007 9:42:51 PM Whomp casey j sea, ocean sea
5/30/2007 9:43:29 PM casey j Whomp ok like ours, we are north
5/30/2007 9:43:35 PM Whomp casey j then coastal
5/30/2007 9:43:56 PM Whomp casey j interesting map
5/30/2007 9:44:05 PM casey j Whomp yep rik did a good job with the surprises
5/30/2007 9:44:23 PM Whomp casey j for sure
5/30/2007 9:44:42 PM casey j Whomp so what do you guys want as far as long term?
5/30/2007 9:45:24 PM Whomp casey j I think we're looking for a long term partner
5/30/2007 9:45:46 PM casey j Whomp same here
5/30/2007 9:46:18 PM Whomp casey j We're not looking towards helping scientifics
5/30/2007 9:46:24 PM Whomp casey j we learned that lesson last game
5/30/2007 9:46:34 PM Whomp casey j keep their pace down
5/30/2007 9:46:53 PM casey j Whomp we figured sending monarchy on over so you could have a wonder for the golden age, rather than sumeria getting it (or at least they would have to research it)
5/30/2007 9:47:25 PM Whomp casey j OK well that might be useful
5/30/2007 9:47:30 PM Whomp casey j we're in anarchy now
5/30/2007 9:47:44 PM casey j Whomp ah how long?
5/30/2007 9:47:57 PM Whomp casey j it was 7 iirc
5/30/2007 9:48:05 PM casey j Whomp from last turn?
5/30/2007 9:48:10 PM Whomp casey j yep
5/30/2007 9:48:34 PM casey j Whomp that might work pretty all right if we traded
5/30/2007 9:49:03 PM casey j Whomp we have 2 turns left on IW (or 1 after this turn), and we could then do math in 4
5/30/2007 9:49:23 PM Whomp casey j I think we're on it too
5/30/2007 9:49:50 PM casey j Whomp on math? going to complete in anarchy?
5/30/2007 9:50:07 PM Whomp casey j i think so
5/30/2007 9:50:30 PM Whomp casey j it was like two turn iirc
5/30/2007 9:51:00 PM casey j Whomp ah well that throws a wrench in the even tech trade then
5/30/2007 9:51:23 PM Whomp casey j well let's see if i can work something with our peoples
5/30/2007 9:51:42 PM Whomp casey j ladies I should say :D
5/30/2007 9:51:46 PM casey j Whomp :)
5/30/2007 9:53:32 PM casey j Whomp see what you can come up with. we probably want to at least trade poly and monarchy straight across for CoL and Republic. It would be nice to have several shots at popping Construction and Currency
5/30/2007 9:54:11 PM Whomp casey j so true
5/30/2007 9:54:17 PM casey j Whomp if you wanted to avoid popping poly we could send it over this turn
5/30/2007 9:54:50 PM casey j Whomp but then i guess you would get HBR or monarchy since you are still on math
5/30/2007 9:55:03 PM casey j Whomp i dont know, we ould have to work out logistics
5/30/2007 9:55:47 PM Whomp casey j we have HBR
5/30/2007 9:56:14 PM Whomp casey j we're finishing masonry not maths
5/30/2007 9:56:21 PM Whomp casey j so we don't have maths yet
5/30/2007 9:58:24 PM Whomp casey j i had to look at a picture to figure out our tech path hehe
5/30/2007 9:59:57 PM casey j Whomp ah ok
5/30/2007 10:00:24 PM casey j Whomp were you shooting for the pyramids or just straight to the Lighthouse
5/30/2007 10:00:34 PM Whomp casey j lighthouse
5/30/2007 10:01:01 PM Whomp casey j We kind of felt this was an arch pretty early
5/30/2007 10:01:26 PM casey j Whomp I dont remember when we first thought that
5/30/2007 10:01:41 PM casey j Whomp we didnt send out a curragh for a long while
5/30/2007 10:02:58 PM Whomp casey j when we kept walking into coast and didn't meet anyone we kinda knew
5/30/2007 10:03:07 PM casey j Whomp :)
5/30/2007 10:03:27 PM Whomp casey j it will be quite a bit different than last game
5/30/2007 10:03:43 PM Whomp casey j though trading luxs and resources is going to be a problem
5/30/2007 10:03:45 PM casey j Whomp so do you want to sign a peace deal while we talk to our teams?
5/30/2007 10:03:50 PM casey j Whomp indeed, very different
5/30/2007 10:04:02 PM Whomp casey j I think we can do that
5/30/2007 10:04:07 PM casey j Whomp how long?
5/30/2007 10:04:25 PM Whomp casey j I'd say let's do 20 turns and hammer out a plan
5/30/2007 10:05:09 PM Whomp casey j I know we'd prefer not to accelerate the scientifics
5/30/2007 10:05:10 PM casey j Whomp alright, im sure we will be fine with that.
5/30/2007 10:05:39 PM casey j Whomp i thought you guys might trade one of them up for the free tech
5/30/2007 10:06:07 PM Whomp casey j well we'll see but i'm not sure either or our UU's benefit from a fast pace
5/30/2007 10:06:45 PM casey j Whomp yeah, i would hate to creat a scientific bloc against us though
5/30/2007 10:06:54 PM Whomp casey j that's true
5/30/2007 10:07:10 PM casey j Whomp we have furs and silks btw, not that it helps anyone much!
5/30/2007 10:07:10 PM Whomp casey j we saw that play out last game
5/30/2007 10:07:30 PM Whomp casey j i'm trying to think what our two luxs are
5/30/2007 10:08:53 PM Whomp casey j incense
5/30/2007 10:09:48 PM Whomp casey j dyes
5/30/2007 10:09:57 PM casey j Whomp ah
5/30/2007 10:11:25 PM casey j Whomp well if we did math next, and we swapped:
5/30/2007 10:11:48 PM casey j Whomp US- give math, poly, monarchy
5/30/2007 10:12:13 PM casey j Whomp you- give CoL, MM, Republic, philo and HBR
5/30/2007 10:12:23 PM casey j Whomp we benefit by something like 400-500 beakers
5/30/2007 10:12:52 PM casey j Whomp but we have 3 huts between us to pop, if we dont get tech to share, we can make it up with gold
5/30/2007 10:12:58 PM Whomp casey j you have wheel?
5/30/2007 10:13:06 PM casey j Whomp so we can at least buy what we dont have
5/30/2007 10:13:14 PM casey j Whomp hmm let me check
5/30/2007 10:13:30 PM casey j Whomp why no, we dont
5/30/2007 10:14:03 PM casey j Whomp its only a 1 turn tech though :)
5/30/2007 10:14:38 PM Whomp casey j ok
5/30/2007 10:15:15 PM casey j Whomp currency would be a 4 turner i guess, with any luck we could be Medieval by turn 100
5/30/2007 10:16:31 PM Whomp casey j did you get iron and horses on the island?
5/30/2007 10:16:52 PM casey j Whomp getting iron after this turn, dont have the wheel
5/30/2007 10:16:58 PM Whomp casey j ah right
5/30/2007 10:17:00 PM casey j Whomp no iron/horses?
5/30/2007 10:17:11 PM casey j Whomp or on the islands off our shore
5/30/2007 10:17:23 PM Whomp casey j horses are there so I'm thinking he gave you iron
5/30/2007 10:17:35 PM casey j Whomp hmm interesting
5/30/2007 10:17:55 PM Whomp casey j my guess is he made these things unbalanced
5/30/2007 10:18:11 PM casey j Whomp what does a hwacha need
5/30/2007 10:18:18 PM casey j Whomp iron and saltpeter?
5/30/2007 10:18:23 PM Whomp casey j i think so
5/30/2007 10:18:29 PM Whomp casey j cannon
5/30/2007 10:18:59 PM casey j Whomp brb
5/30/2007 10:19:24 PM Whomp casey j salt only
5/30/2007 10:19:28 PM Whomp casey j k

5/30/2007 10:25:56 PM casey j Whomp hows the mod status treating you
5/30/2007 10:26:25 PM Whomp casey j it's funny
5/30/2007 10:26:37 PM Whomp casey j some of the young guys don't get it
5/30/2007 10:26:56 PM Whomp casey j they haven't learned you attack the idea rather than the person
5/30/2007 10:28:12 PM Whomp casey j PrinceMyshkin is like brand new to CFC
5/30/2007 10:28:23 PM Whomp casey j He must know what the heck he's doing
5/30/2007 10:28:53 PM casey j Whomp yeah he is pretty good actually, has a good grasp on new things
5/30/2007 10:29:09 PM Whomp casey j i'm sure it's all layed out too
5/30/2007 10:29:25 PM casey j Whomp he showed up in the HOF forums a while back so I knew he was pretty decent.
5/30/2007 10:29:39 PM Whomp casey j gotcha
5/30/2007 10:29:45 PM Whomp casey j Wotan is having fun with this
5/30/2007 10:29:46 PM casey j Whomp we tried to get JB to take some turns but he hasnt yet
5/30/2007 10:29:56 PM casey j Whomp it looks like it, he cracks me up
5/30/2007 10:29:57 PM Whomp casey j JB's so funny
5/30/2007 10:30:07 PM casey j Whomp wotan cracks me up i mean
5/30/2007 10:30:12 PM Whomp casey j Me too
5/30/2007 10:30:22 PM casey j Whomp i mean, he is ON it
5/30/2007 10:30:27 PM casey j Whomp soon as the turn hits the inbox
5/30/2007 10:30:37 PM Whomp casey j He is into it
5/30/2007 10:30:51 PM Whomp casey j the whole human aspect of this has him intrigued
5/30/2007 10:30:53 PM casey j Whomp which i really like, two of the other teams are slow as christmas
5/30/2007 10:31:23 PM Whomp casey j well that's what he's saying is he hates when a meeting is slowed down because someone is late
5/30/2007 10:31:23 PM casey j Whomp well he is in for a treat, as the fun diplo part is just beginning
5/30/2007 10:31:34 PM Whomp casey j that's what we've been telling him
5/30/2007 10:31:55 PM Whomp casey j we're pretty lucky with BCLG and Robi D with us
5/30/2007 10:33:08 PM casey j Whomp tim bentley hasnt been around in a while
5/30/2007 10:34:03 PM Whomp casey j Tim usually is gone when school is out
5/30/2007 10:34:22 PM Whomp casey j he has access at school
5/30/2007 10:34:44 PM casey j Whomp ah
5/30/2007 10:35:05 PM casey j Whomp RFHolloway is pretty active, and the regulars that you know
5/30/2007 10:35:18 PM casey j Whomp i think more people will join in now that the real game is afoot
5/30/2007 10:35:20 PM Whomp casey j He seems like a good guy
5/30/2007 10:35:42 PM Whomp casey j i tried to recruit the SGOTM guys
5/30/2007 10:35:52 PM Whomp casey j a few joined
5/30/2007 10:36:08 PM Whomp casey j you guys were amazing again
5/30/2007 10:36:46 PM casey j Whomp thanks man, i thought we made too many mistakes
5/30/2007 10:37:23 PM Whomp casey j Wacken's a trip
5/30/2007 10:37:43 PM casey j Whomp yeah he is on one of his retirement binges, i tried to get him to play this MTDG
5/30/2007 10:37:59 PM Whomp casey j he must be better than Klarius
5/30/2007 10:38:27 PM casey j Whomp i dont know, he takes the time to really think, Klarius just strikes me as simply a brilliant guy
5/30/2007 10:38:36 PM casey j Whomp its hard to say
5/30/2007 10:38:40 PM Whomp casey j they're both amazing
5/30/2007 10:38:45 PM casey j Whomp indeed
5/30/2007 10:38:47 PM Whomp casey j i'd like to see them play
5/30/2007 10:39:36 PM casey j Whomp if they both wrote good reports, it would be a legendary game
5/30/2007 10:39:58 PM Whomp casey j no doubt
(Some blah blah about Civ 4)
5/30/2007 10:50:04 PM casey j Whomp let us know if you guys want us to do maths, we will be done with IW one turn after this
5/30/2007 10:50:11 PM Whomp casey j will do
5/30/2007 10:50:15 PM casey j Whomp see ya man
5/30/2007 10:50:27 PM Whomp casey j bye

We have a lot of ideas to discuss w/ BABE that have been presented:

- G Library to slow pace?
- Whether they have contacts? I thought Whomp said they didnt but careful inspection shows he deflected the question like he does.
- Military alliance with them?
- Middle age tech pace and direction?
- How to handle the other civs? (I think we want a piece of the action if they can trade say Monarchy/Poly for something). They are kings of contact anyway, maybe we can just stay in the loop.

Thx, kc, that's just what I wanted to see. Everybody should look at that if they haven't done diplo before.

I'm going to take a closer look, so everbody jump in with answers to kc's questions. Those look difficult, so I guess we aren't in too much of a hurry. When should we proceed w/ the turn?

Probably we can play it right away. Nothing probably can be done this turn.

Allright. I think we should just keep watching for developments and be ready to make an offer when we get math 5-turns from now. I didn't join "with everything laid out", just volunteered to take the turns and do my best. I think I can keep coming up with some ideas and plans, but everybody on the team should do the same. I guess I should at least check foreign adsvisor and look for embassies, right?


Edit: Where should we send the Irish Rover?

I was thinking it could go west to that other spot to try and make contact with someone else since we dont really need to see BABE lands very bad.

Probably we should check the military advisor for them too but we can do that any old time.

Whomper didn't answer the question about contacts...

5/30/2007 9:37:20 PM casey j Whomp ah you probably have some more contacts then, or will soon with the Lighthosue
5/30/2007 9:37:36 PM Whomp casey j I think so. Have you met anyone?
5/30/2007 9:37:51 PM Whomp casey j I'll show if you show.
5/30/2007 9:38:00 PM casey j Whomp nope, we sent curraghs out in 4 directions, hopefully 2 will make it
5/30/2007 9:38:27 PM Whomp casey j Well our galley is in your way this turn

He changed direction on the last line and never came back around to sharing who the Babe's were in contact with.

It would seem Prince's number crunching does add up to the fact that the Babes are in contact with others.

Does this change the deal for us? As long as it includes a long term peace agreement then I think it does not.

See if we can get a contract for first right of refusal to trade luxes when the time comes.

If resources are spread out then a space shot is going to be next to impossible. Going 100k we control our destiny. And has been pointed out, the team that throws the first punch is likely to get taken out second.

Thanks for suggestion kc, expect turn to be passed soon.

Good points, jb. It shouldn't worry us or prevent a deal, it is good to see if we can gain info not shared. We don't want to reveal all plans, all the time, either. I think it may be a good idea to put diplo discussions in spoilers to let the team provide input, but that's up for debate. Expect turn update in 2-3 hrs.:)

I just looked in foreign advisor and have a question that needs an answer. Do I need to "accept offer" or not? Is that the 20-turn peace deal?

If theres nothing in the window, its probably just where they were checking our techs and didnt close out the window first. Its a harmless bug, nothing to worry about.

Thx, I do see the peace treaty in active deals. Ending turn now.

If theres nothing in the window, its probably just where they were checking our techs and didnt close out the window first.

Cute.

Here's a chat I had w/ Whomper this evening while Killer whispered in my ear. Editted for clarity, emphasis and humor.


jb1964 says:
I think Prince is holding out to the last minute to play the Gong set in hopes of inking a deal w/ the babes
Whomp says:
I don't think we'll be able to come back with a tech deal this turn
Whomp says:
we're struggling with the monarchy thing
jb1964 says:
What's the struggle?
Whomp says:
I don't think we want monarchy just to get a wonder
jb1964 says:
Take the crown, build the gardens and enjoy your GA
Whomp says:
we don't have the capability to switch like you guys (jb - this is BS, no need to switch anything)
Whomp says:
We're working on something else though
jb1964 says:
Galleys full of babes?
Whomp says:
hehe
jb1964 says:
BTW, Casey is a Braves fan. I'm sick to my stomach.
Whomp says:
what happened? How does this type of thing happen? is it legal?
jb1964 says:
Dunno, one day they're your little boy and the next they're snorting draino and rooting for the f987ing braves
Whomp says:
kids these days
jb1964 says:
Hey, just because we send you Monarchy doesn't mean you need to switch governments... just use the tech for your wonder. That is if you want to go that way. (jb - this is the point it hit me that the earlier comment was goofy)
jb1964 says:
Hey, I know Casey told you that the Babes are our only contact to date... Have you met any of the others?
jb1964 says:
Maybe those nutty Koreans building SoZ?
Whomp says:
We're about to meet our third contact - Council, and we've met Saber
jb1964 says:
Speak well of us
Whomp says:
Of course
Whomp says:
It will be interesting to see what develops
jb1964 says:
This map is a kick...
Whomp says:
no doubt
Whomp says:
i like the idea of a naval game (jb - a hint at his mindset?)
Whomp says:
this one could go on for awhile (Misdirection!)
Whomp says:
past cavs and rails like last game
jb1964 says:
Well, after the last game I think the theory is, strike first, die second (Whomper did not respond to that comment)
jb1964 says:
Just looking over our Babe Diplo thread... you guys are thought well of...
jb1964 says:
What is your take on a trade for poly & monarchy for Wheel, HBR, MM, and philo (and maybe CoL)? That way we could pop our huts and get Const/Currency and share the bounty?
Whomp says:
I think we'll have to talk about it further because most of the guys didn't like the idea of monarchy
jb1964 says:
As in you have no need for it?
Whomp says:
i understand what you guys are trying to do so i'll bring it up again
Whomp says:
i don't think hanging gardens was a consideration tbh
Whomp says:
you guys are beloved by us too btw
jb1964 says:
I'm not keen on all the nuances of C3C still, but I thought the idea was to take techs off the table to increase the chances of popping const and other
Whomp says:
idiots don't change their spots or sumpin like that
jb1964 says:
true that
Whomp says:
it makes sense what the thinking is
Whomp says:
if you guys pop huts and get currency or construction it would be a pretty sweet gig
jb1964 says:
it's so funny, I would have popped them by turn 20
Whomp says:
monarchy is dead end...they only benefit would be Hanging Gardens
jb1964 says:
Are we going to get a counter offer of sorts? What is the general gist of what the Babes are thinking. That is, the non-blondes.
Whomp says:
Definitely
Whomp says:
I think what we're hoping is tech prices drop when we meet council
jb1964 says:
kewl
Whomp says:
we're a little afraid of the scientifics and tech pace
Whomp says:
i mentioned that to Cane last night
jb1964 says:
I read it in the thread
Whomp says:
if they meet and share techs we'll be left in the duts
Whomp says:
dust
Whomp says:
so how to handle them is a concern
Whomp says:
saber wants to accelerate the pace and we've been reluctant
jb1964 says:
agreed, that was brought up. We certainly could work to keep the tech pace sane but they could go off the charts w/o us.
Whomp says:
I think the west move by us will give us Free btw
jb1964 says:
Well, you guys hold the contact edge, that's for sure. In all your wheeling and dealing we would like a seat at the table and a long term partner.
Whomp says:
i think if we can figure out how to get you the techs
Whomp says:
but get compensated without monarchy would be great
Whomp says:
you guys need to fight someone! You're kings with red headed swordsmen
Whomp says:
and a beer pyramid
jb1964 says:
The GS is a fun unit. Get us Maps and point us in a direction and maybe we can scuttle some of the designs of the Scientifics.
(jb-I lost my link at this point and nothing more of real interest was said.)


And after all the talk of tech swapping, are we still set on bagging the GLib?

jb, this has me laughing out loud.:lol: If the world thinks going to war with galleys full of one 1 or 2 defense units making landings on islands is going to work, this game just might be in the bag. Really surprising. Even just a glance at the last MTDG, I kept thinking 20-shield horsemen = 30-shield MW in the open field, what is up with those pikes. It was the tech lead and being prepared to take advantage of it that was most impressive on MIA. I thought anybody could ride horses on rails followed by bombers. Maybe I'm missing something, but...idk.:)

And after all the talk of tech swapping, are we still set on bagging the GLib?

This really is a good question. Maybe the world would do just as well without it. How can we know some other team will not build it? And if a science team builds it, wouldn't that make even more of problem?

I apologize for commenting so hastily above, small conflicts with limited goals might be good ideas. But the costs of all-out aggression this early would only lead to falling even further behind in tech. What is the Babes explanation for not wanting a peaceful means to enable their GA, then?

Very nice work as well, jb.:goodjob:

Building on Babes concern about sci civs leaving us in the "duts" is a good thing. We're in on that, right? IMHO a treaty would focus on:
1. Long term peace
2. Guaratees of sharing vital rescources (iron/horses)
3. How to keep up with the tech pace
4. Beer for babes

I still think it's agood idea for us to go for the GLib, get MM and squirt out suicidals. If we get the contacts having the Glib we could invite Babes on the benefits. We're the only on in GA? so I think we will get it....

It is something that could use more discussion, Daghie. So here's some questions I have.

1. How can we trade vital resources if we are putting off the time to Navigation?

2. Also, if as I suspect the Pyramids will ensure we have higher pop. indefinitely, I wouldn't expect too much trouble in keeping up in tech pace. I think the only concern is losing out on some of the science team's free tech and having to research known techs for ourselves, right?

3. Is long term peace really team Babes goal?

4. How much time can we expect to have to gain a lead in the MA? Will we just finish one or two techs only to have the science teams get them for free?

Well concern with science teams is BS imo, MIA won last time because they received AN ENTIRE FREAKING CONTINENT AND HUNDREDS OF CITIZENS with minimal losses.

That being said, BABE is making me paranoid. I told JB last night they need to come up with a better deal soon. I think they are trying to downplay Monarchy; its a good deal for them, esp. without Republic. Since they know Korea, they can get math from them and we can then buy math off of them, which is a big win for them and good for us.

If they wont agree to a long term peace deal soon then we better start building some units. If we can leave curraghs on the various mid ocean docking points that would give us quite a bit of early warning of a fleet.

I think I agree that concern about science teams free tech isn't really a problem, especially since we want peaceful relations with all teams really. Its been something I've been talking about, and apologize if focus was put into what's really of minor importance, if any. And thanks for the reminder that its always population that leads to power.

I do find it surprising that they don't think much of what we have to offer. Besides a sentinel net of curraghs, how many should we send to seek contacts for ourselves?

Units shouldn't be a problem. But, we should minimize disruption from our plans for growth, I think. Can peace deals be broken?

We do want some deal, I think, but not at the cost of commiting us to aggression, right?

Also, thanks again RF for bringing "The Evolution of Cooperation" by Robert Axelrod to the teams attention. I found an article on wikipedia about it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Evolution_of_Cooperation. The team should find it interesting.

What is the Babes explanation for not wanting a peaceful means to enable their GA, then?
An excellent point and we should put that question to Whomper.
I should have said, "OK, so you're getting Monarchy from some other source or when should we expect the MW landing?"

Can peace deals be broken?
I have not read the rules but I don't think even the most dastardly among us would break a peace deal in this game. Some things need to be sacred.
[Edit: From the Rules thread - "Most importantly: allow breaking of in-game treaties. It's your reputation. The admins don't care what happens to it." So, if one team wants to backstab another they can certainly do that. Once. :shifty: :nono: ]

We do want some deal, I think, but not at the cost of commiting us to aggression, right?
I wasn't serious about attacking anyone at the end of my thread w/ Whomp. He made the suggestion (GS landings) just to see my reaction and I took the conversation up a notch to see his. Unfortunately I lost my IM connection, again, at that point and don't know if he ever saw that comment. It might be wise to build on his thought of our using GS's... maybe give him the impression that, although few in number, we have enough to make another team miserable. That is, once we discover if we have iron. :p If they think we have GS's running about they will never land MW's on our shore.

Given our city density on the coasts it wouldn't be too difficult to simply deny the Babes the ability to land.

Prince, it's not that I think Babe is going to drop off 20 MW's to destroy us it's that at this point I think 2 or 4 swords dropped off anywhere on our lands could be a real pain in the butt.

Let me put it this way, if you could land 4 swords (or MW's) on our shores at this point, when your military advisor tells you that we're weak, would you do it?

Babe's upside: they could get just about anything out of us they wanted or wreck a couple of cities before we rushed and gathered enough archers to deal with the problem. The long lasting setback to us, at first thought, would not be small but also not unrecoverable.

Downside, at most you'll cause some havok and have earned yourself an enemy for the rest of the game. Albeit, a weak, culture crazed enemy.

They downplay monarchy because that's their job haggling for a good deal. That doesn't mean we have to accept that downplay.
Sentinel boats, as well as explorers, are well adviced methinks. This is a wet game by the looks of it.
Babes BS'ing to get the best out of a deal shouldn't make us paranoid. On the other hand, a decent stack of units is always good to have just in case.
We have expanded nicely and the pyramids will add to that. Maybe it's time train some mean guys.

Babe had better come back w/ a deal this evening or I'll pester Whomp relentlessly on IM. :D

And I agree w/ Daghie, a few mean guys about the shoreline would help towards reducing our stress level.

First, let me apologize very much to any team members I've offended with hasty comment above. I regretted it the second I posted. I simply have no business making comments on a game with so little information to go on. I don't know if I even should be forgiven for that, but I hope so.

Let me put it this way, if you could land 4 swords (or MW's) on our shores at this point, when your military advisor tells you that we're weak, would you do it?

Not a chance. I would never declare war for any gain or advantage of oppurtunity in a game dealing with humans. For ai's I make exceptions. If war is to come it will be defensive or none at all. If you haven't taken a look at the link I provided summarizing the article RF brought up, I recommend it. It summarizes pretty well how I approach these games.

I have not read the rules but I don't think even the most dastardly among us would break a peace deal in this game. Some things need to be sacred.
[Edit: From the Rules thread - "Most importantly: allow breaking of in-game treaties. It's your reputation. The admins don't care what happens to it." So, if one team wants to backstab another they can certainly do that. Once. ]

If there is no chance peace will be broken, then we have more than enough time to prepare for any "pain in the butt" even a stack of 20 MW's. If they do want to backstab us and ruin their reputation, imo, it is they who will pay more than us in the long run. If that galley makes a move to our shores on the next turn it's their best oppurtunity to hurt us, so we'll have to see what we can do about that just in case they might see an opportunity. But, in anarchy? Or are they just total liars?

I already mentioned a plan for one turn vet-warriors at Paradise City some turns ago. I think we can proceed with that and see if we get iron in two turns and decide then on builds and troop placement. With a sentinel net of curraghs and the dense build we have we should be able to rush at least archers ready to strike any landing on the island. If we get lucky we might even sink one of their galleys.

I think the main thing these guys might be interested in is causing fear and paranoia to disrupt a teams plans, as we may already have seen in the case of the Council, so any defense plans should be made with the idea of causing minimal disruption. We are about to build our last settlers and some cities can turn production to defense, but I recommend we not go overboard.

We may be weak in military, atm, but they would be underestimating our power if they really want to declare war. I did like the way our power graph looked, didn't you? We should still seek a deal with the Babes, but I suggest we do not sign agreements that will lead to us becoming aggressors.

Babe's upside: they could get just about anything out of us they wanted or wreck a couple of cities before we rushed and gathered enough archers to deal with the problem. The long lasting setback to us, at first thought, would not be small but also not unrecoverable

They already don't seem to want what we have, so....:confused:

EDIT: sorry, crosspost, and I see we pretty much agree:)

No offense taken. If what I say sounds goofy it's because I shoot from the hip and it probably is. But like any discussion I have w/ my wife, I can usually find a deeper, if obscure, meaning that makes me sound less impulsive. And after 20 years I'm pretty good at backtracking. :D

Challenging the ideas is why we have this forum. Keep it coming.

Back to the Babes...
I don't think we want them circumnavigating our lands. We'll see what the did w/ the galley shortly and if it moved towards our shores then we need to ask them to return to thier own poluted, uncultured waters.

However, before we insult them I would like a response from Whomp as to the opportunity for a deal.

I love goofy!:cool: And can definitely relate to that.:)

I don't think we want them circumnavigating our lands. We'll see what the did w/ the galley shortly and if it moved towards our shores then we need to ask them to return to thier own poluted, uncultured waters.

I agree with this. Looking at the map I posted in the log, it appears they can't quite reach our borders next turn, but could certainly take a look. I would think they would want to go west to bag another contact, so if they go north....

Thanks for reminding me of the rules thread, I'm going to read that again. Can we ask them to turn around when they aren't in our borders? We could probably ask why they don't meet someone else?

If they did approach we might need to get at least a couple warriors ready to take a swing if they're crazy enough to land, don't you think? We've already got one due at Paradise City next turn.

However, before we insult them I would like a response from Whomp as to the opportunity for a deal.

We don't want to insult anyone, so keep us informed. I noticed in the diplo communications kc mentioned IW in one. If he hasn't already corrected that, it's a good idea to tell them it's in two, we don't want them to think we were misleading them, just an honest mistake.

We don't want to insult anyone, so keep us informed. I noticed in the diplo communications kc mentioned IW in one. If he hasn't already corrected that, it's a good idea to tell them it's in two, we don't want them to think we were misleading them, just an honest mistake.

Normally we wouldn't want to insult anyone but w/ Whomp I make an exception. You see, I'm a Cubs fan and he likes the Chicago White Sox. I started our conversation off last night pointing out that my Cubs have a 0.1% better winning percentage than his Sox. He liked it. The bottom line is Whomp's a pal and I'm not sure I could bring myself to truely insult him or his dog. But his baseball team is fair game.

Don't worry, I'm obnoxious but not stupid. :p (No comments please.)

Time to see if the Babes have sent us a letter....

I'm sure they will seek permission before entering our waters. Question is, how do we respond? Access to our shores is a piece in working out a deal.

If it could help in working out a deal we might want to think about it.

No news from diplo must mean the Babes are working out a deal for math from the Council. I think they might be including us on the list of teams (everybody?) to keep down the tech pace. I think we should play the turn when it arrives and see where they sent their galley. I'll look to increase security and seek contacts. We really need a deal before next turn, since we have to set our research and they probably don't want us to do math. Maybe the world could use a good Library.

(Man, my brain turns to french fry salad without sleep.)

We've just gotten the save and I don't think we want to wait too long to pass it along. I'll wait until ~11 AM EST (GMT-5) for news of any developments and any ideas when and how to proceed.

(And get a bit more sleep to be at my best.)

Reviewing this again.
1. We can have currency in 5-turns if they get math from Korea giving both teams 3-chances at huts.
2. If none of us pop construction in 5-turns, we can have it in 9-turns.
3. In my opinion any team starting war first will lose the game despite any gains, as will any team tied to such a policy.

4. Also possible, but perhaps left off table is we can have any MA tech in 13-turns and/or good chances at completing GLibrary if either team can pop construction.

Hope some of this might help move diplo forward in near future.:) Please advise if delaying the turn is desirable. We have until ~12:00PM EST (GMT-5) to start taking the turn.

Alright, I think it's time to see what happened. Expect a turn report in a couple of hours. This will help give a clearer picture of what we might expect. I'll post no more opinions after the report to allow the diplo team and the rest of the Gongers to decide what the best course of actions are. I will respond to any questions posted to me directly. I will always advise well in advance if I feel I am not capable of doing my best for the team. Events have turned out much differently than we expected, but things are not as bad as they seem.

BABE popped poly from a hut (according to them, they may have traded). Im talking to Whomp and Robi D now. It is a possibility that they have known another team for a while. Ill try to get that out of him.

Thx, kc. Initial report is no sight of Babe galley. Turn expected to take some time.

Would be nice to trade some techs, sounds like the only tech we have a monopoly on is monarchy. I fear we are going to be behind in techs, unless we can get another contact. I think it is pretty obvious that we weren't the first contact Babes had, I wonder if they have 2 others.

Just a thought, given that the map wraps in both directions is it worth sailing in the direction away from the Babes and seeing if we come into contact with someone else thay way.

We have a lot of new information. JB and I talked to Whomp the BABE Information Minister today. I dont have time to dissect yet but there is a lot to digest. Free and Council are in the middle ages, BABE want an alliance, sell techs for 75% cost, and we work out something on the hut attempts (try to get Construction and currency in other words). BABES have poly from a hut (allegedly...). It seems they are willing to jump in bed with us if we want to do it.

jb1964 says:
So, where are we on putting together a tech deal and inking some long term mutual affection pact?
Whomp says:
brb
Simon says:
what game are we talking about now?
casey j says:
the civ 3 one
casey j says:
we are kind of schizo
jb1964 says:
Whomper and I were talking baseball but I'm switching gears to Civ
Simon says:
your gong right?
jb1964 says:
Yes, former KISS and now Gong
Rob says:
i'm here... finally
Simon says:
how come you lot are so technologically retarded?
Rob says:
casey brought up an 80 turn deal if i remember correctly
Rob says:
earlier that is
jb1964 says:
We've been isolated and still have huts to pop
jb1964 says:
And we did focus on the beer pyramid
jb1964 says:
life's good
Rob says:
lol
Rob says:
we were jelous so we are building one out of hot babes
jb1964 says:
Please let it fall on me
Rob says:
maybe we can work out a swap at some stage?
jb1964 says:
Ow, the wife just whacked me
Simon says:
brb food
Whomp says:
holly was on a mission today too
Whomp says:
and here i have diplo to discuss
casey j says:
heh technologically retarded
Whomp says:
she just left to take her national boards

jb1964 has left the conversation.

jb1964 has been added to the conversation.

casey j says:
how are you guys going to start your golden age
Whomp says:
not sure
Whomp says:
what wonders other than hanging gardens? I forget
Whomp says:
we have the commercial one
casey j says:
HG is the only one for agricultural
Whomp says:
hmm
Whomp says:
so maths
Whomp says:
you need maths
Whomp says:
how quickly do you need to pop the huts?
Whomp says:
is it imminent?
casey j says:
within 10 turns probably I would guess
jb1964 says:
We're running outta AA and would like to get whatever's valuable to both of us
Whomp says:
ok here's the dilemma
Whomp says:
if we trade with saber for maths it accelerates a scientific
casey j says:
yeah
casey j says:
what do they want for it
Whomp says:
they want hbr and myst
Whomp says:
which leaves 30 beakers
Whomp says:
they want to give 14 g
jb1964 says:
minor detail
Whomp says:
right but do we want to advance them to the MA's?
jb1964 says:
I would rather you not
Whomp says:
not sure about that since we know what happened with the two scientifics last game
Rob says:
but there is another issue tied to all this
Whomp says:
Council and Free
Rob says:
who have traded with each other extensively
casey j says:
what are their tech situations
Whomp says:
attached at the hip it seems
jb1964 says:
OK, we form the other aliance and leave Sabre in the dark ages
Whomp says:
ok so if we research maths you'll be fine to wait on your huts?
casey j says:
we can research math while you are in anarchy
Whomp says:
that would alleviate a huge problem
jb1964 says:
WE're only here to help
Whomp says:
we know what cham can do so there's no reason to help him
jb1964 says:
*choke*
Whomp says:
they're not going to look to kindly on us but what can they do LOL!!!
casey j says:
brb, what are the other two's tech situations
Rob says:
well they have managed to get to MA
Whomp says:

Whomp says:
unreal
jb1964 says:
Then they have been swapping big time

jb1964 has left the conversation.

Whomp says:
poor jb
Rob says:
he'll never know the answer lol

jb1964 has been added to the conversation.

Whomp says:
here you go jb
jb1964 says:
thanks
Whomp says:
that was a big thud jb
jb1964 says:
I go down hard
Whomp says:
like michael barrett or AJ
jb1964 says:
OK, the others are in the MA
Rob says:
afraid so
jb1964 says:

Whomp says:
we assume free
Rob says:
can't be anyone else
Whomp says:
we should know for sure very soon
jb1964 says:
Neither of us are interested in cranking up Council
Whomp says:
nor free
Whomp says:
nor saber for that matter
jb1964 says:
OK, we research Math
Rob says:
the only thing i wish to crank up the council is 50 MW's
jb1964 says:
haha
jb1964 says:
sill laughing
jb1964 says:
Well, toss in some GS's and we might survive
Rob says:
well donsig is a strong motivating factor for me
jb1964 says:
OK, techs and peace
Rob says:
80 turns
jb1964 says:
Sure
Simon says:
back
casey j says:
im back
casey j says:
had contact lens problems
Rob says:
lol so you didn't read our response yet
jb1964 says:
oh, one moment
Rob says:
i'm waiting for the thud
Whomp says:

jb1964 says:
Ya lost me guys
Whomp says:
MA's
Rob says:
casey was away for that part
casey j says:
im caught up
Whomp says:
eek
casey j says:
so free and saber are in the MA, with at least 2 techs probably
Whomp says:
no council
Whomp says:
free
Whomp says:
all the more reason not to trade with saber
casey j says:
do they have government techs? ok council and free (kuningas right?)
Whomp says:
yep
Simon says:
yeah
Whomp says:
republics
Rob says:
but they are still in despot right now
Whomp says:
anarchy maybe or haven't revolted iirc
Whomp says:
they wouldn't go feud i'd think
Rob says:
coucil hadn't yet
Whomp says:
ok
jb1964 says:
So you're in anarchy then
Whomp says:
we are
jb1964 says:
Ihave never used feud
casey j says:
well we can certainly deny council their golden age
Rob says:
another 4 or 5 turns to go
Whomp says:
night.mare!
Simon says:
i used fued onece
Simon says:
*once- wanted to see if it did anything it didnt say on the tin
Whomp says:
twice here per variant
Simon says:
it didnt...
casey j says:
you can build a massive army quick in feudie
Whomp says:
brutal unless you're going for culture or small ics
Whomp says:
small size cities
Whomp says:
WW was brutal with the pop rushing on culture
Whomp says:
so there it is
casey j says:
do you guys have any plans to build the colossus to deny korea their golden age?
jb1964 says:
So Council would need collossus for their GA
Whomp says:
i see
Whomp says:
I'd presume 80 peace is a done deal
Whomp says:
so now it's teching
jb1964 says:
yep
casey j says:
well to keep the other two in place we could build the HG (no GA for free) and Colossus (no GA for Korea)
jb1964 says:
We should move each other down the line, pop the huts, share the techs and find a way to make up any disparity
Whomp says:
yep
Whomp says:
so we need to cross our fingers...i think it's 40%?
casey j says:
i think you guys are going to have to build the gardens for a GA, not to try to sell you a quasi useless tech but i dont see how else you are going to do it
casey j says:
if you are going to attack someone to initiate the GA, the earliest i figure is with pikes protection but you have no iron. no iron=no rails so IA is out. the only thing left is with salpeter, which each of us might or might not have
casey j says:
and then the others could have salt and render MWs kind of harmless
casey j says:
we would rather give it to you for free than have sumeria who is in the MAs get a GA
casey j says:
and increase their lead
Whomp says:
yeah....man that's expensive
Whomp says:
makes me wonder whether we should hit one of them with our MWs
Whomp says:
huge risk
Whomp says:
but versus building a wonder...
jb1964 says:
Yes it is
Whomp says:
they can't hit us back though
jb1964 says:
Have you figured out that the waters are only safe for you?
Whomp says:
so is it worthwhile to use 30 shields to kick it off or build HG
Rob says:
not completely just for us
casey j says:
well it depends, are they weak to you? with a golden age you could build a bazillion MWs and ships to carry them. its a tough question.
jb1964 says:
There are passages, but then you can see someone coming down that road and be ready for it.
Rob says:
anyone can cross the waters but it would be part suicide
Rob says:
and they would lose some boats
Rob says:
around 50% i think
jb1964 says:
That's what I mean, nobody is going to put a loaded ship in suicide waters
Whomp says:
the question is whether they'd continue war for the rest of the game
Rob says:
well if we start one we would have to plan on finishing it too
jb1964 says:
Well, if you want the HG's then we have Monarchy and a promise not to build it.
Simon says:
what does HG do?
Simon says:
other than give us a ga?
Whomp says:
3 content
Whomp says:
on the island
jb1964 says:
It gives you your GA, and some happy feet
Simon says:
oh well thats useless, id prefer to just whack some council
casey j says:
3 content in the city that builds it, 1 content in all other cities
Whomp says:
ok
Whomp says:
i thought it was each city
jb1964 says:
it's 10% on the happy gas slider
jb1964 says:
no, only 1 per city
jb1964 says:
Bach's is 2
Whomp says:
300 shields
casey j says:
well a ship invasion has the advantage of dealing more hurt to them. it will be a lot of ship building though, and how are you going to cover your landing?
Whomp says:
we'd have to have spears or swords
casey j says:
i thought you had no iron
jb1964 says:
Iron
Rob says:
that would also depend on if they were expecting us
Whomp says:
remember they don't have map knowledge of us
Whomp says:
in fact i don't think anyone does
Rob says:
or my devious mind
Whomp says:
HG expires at steam
casey j says:
no one has iron?
Simon says:
saber do
Rob says:
yep
Whomp says:
can't remember if council does
jb1964 says:
OK, you don't want Monarchy to be part of the tech swap?
Whomp says:
i'm leaning no
casey j says:
this is like my pbem with wacken, what to do on an island map
Whomp says:
if we did we'd be inclined to wait towards unis
Whomp says:
he had a great plan Casy
Whomp says:
Casey
Whomp says:
i should dig it up
jb1964 says:
Wait towards Unis?
Whomp says:
it was in your forum right?
Whomp says:
to build HG
Whomp says:
at least the 300 shields aren't a back breaker as we develop
jb1964 says:
Universal Suferage?
Whomp says:
and then can focus on doing it for building unis
Whomp says:
do you follow?
jb1964 says:
Actually, no
jb1964 says:
sorry
jb1964 says:
Acronyms are thowing me off
Whomp says:
universities
Whomp says:
300 shields in the MA is not nearly as painful as AAs
jb1964 says:
OK, what about them
Whomp says:
so kicking off a GA in the MA's wouldn't be so brutal
jb1964 says:
I understand
Whomp says:
so the question is if council has to research monarchy then build it is it worth it?
casey j says:
sorry i was away for a sec
casey j says:
yeah he had a good plan, with iro too
casey j says:
free you mean
casey j says:
council needs colossus
Whomp says:
gotcha
Whomp says:
ok
Whomp says:
so free then
casey j says:
free needs HG, and MOM, or GL
Whomp says:
h'wachas will be near impossible to kick off a GA
Simon says:
pity you got MOM huh?
Whomp says:
so free may have to derail the tech pace
jb1964 says:
MoM rocks!
Whomp says:
tough call but i sense we're focused on a farmer's gambit still
Whomp says:
another wonder is 10 MWs
Rob says:
i like that wonder
casey j says:
indeed. but you need ships to send them, which will be 300 shields
casey j says:
but are more useful long term
casey j says:
its a dilemma
Whomp says:
it is
casey j says:
plus unit support for all your units
Whomp says:
while trying to farmer at the same time
Simon says:
why do we need 300 shields for ships?
Whomp says:
300 for HG
Simon says:
casey j says:
indeed. but you need ships to send them, which will be 300 shields
Whomp says:
5 MWs and 5 galleys
Whomp says:
= 300
Rob says:
how much shieds is one ship
casey j says:
30 shields
Whomp says:
30
Simon says:
i think the amount we have already saved on not having to suicide all our ships is already quite good
Rob says:
well 2 MW fit on one ship
casey j says:
yeah
casey j says:
i was thinking 10 galleys, 20 units
Whomp says:
i'd think
Simon says:
i dunno
Rob says:
ok i'm with you
Simon says:
kiss attacked with like 8
Simon says:
still scared the . .. .. .. . outa us
Whomp says:
it was in the MA's too
casey j says:
but it took them a while, and they were at war
Rob says:
nuts hit tnt with 4
Rob says:
took out there capital too
Whomp says:
there's no chance to retaliate though
Simon says:
after kiss did the hard part
Rob says:
no the war before kiss
Rob says:
when i ran donsig in circle
Whomp says:
that war was silly
Simon says:
that wasnt our capital....
Whomp says:
it was on your terms
Rob says:
it was orginally
Whomp says:
this wouldn't be on anyone but our terms
Simon says:
yeah but then through our genius we palace jumped
Rob says:
until provo moved it lol
Whomp says:
well...we should see what the smart guys think about building HG
Rob says:
did like the sea breeze at night lol
Rob says:
*didn't
Simon says:
makes so much more sense now
Rob says:

jb1964 says:
OK, we can get you Math while you're in Anarchy
jb1964 says:
We'll get CoL, MM, Wheel and HBR
jb1964 says:
Pop the huts
jb1964 says:
and see what techs we can send your way
casey j says:
are free or Council weak to you?
Whomp says:
we don't know on free
jb1964 says:
You're down to zero huts now, correct
Whomp says:
i think we are or 1 left
jb1964 says:
I thought you poppoed your last w/ poly
jb1964 says:
but no matter
Rob says:
Council is average to us atm
jb1964 says:
if you have one then kewl
Whomp says:
i can't remember
Whomp says:
let me look
Rob says:
i think that popped a couple of turns ago didn't it
Whomp says:
poly was last turn iirc and it looks like the last one
Rob says:
yes thats it
jb1964 says:
OK, we have two..
Rob says:
no problems
Rob says:
does that wrap it all up or is there something else to discuss
Whomp says:
i think we're good
jb1964 says:
Who writes up the deal?
Whomp says:
i have no creativity
casey j says:
what is the deal
casey j says:
80 turn peace, help in wars?
jb1964 says:
80 peace
Whomp says:
wars?
Whomp says:
how?
Simon says:
just how would you help?
jb1964 says:
techs, and compensation
Rob says:
just who would attack you
jb1964 says:
at this point I don't know that wec an
Rob says:
i think we established only we could and we are giving you 80 turns of peace
jb1964 says:
I'll wriet up a deal for the peace, techs and compensation
Whomp says:
'Cane where was WOA's spoiler?
jb1964 says:
Casey, are we ready to pop huts now or in short order?
casey j says:
hold on let me ask him
casey j says:
grahamiams forum
Simon says:
is wacken going to wacken this year?
Simon says:
some of my mates are going
Whomp says:
got it
Whomp says:
graham's
jb1964 says:
Hey i need to run out in short order...
Rob says:
ok guys i'm off to bed
jb1964 says:
I'll send a deal your way for the techs and peas
caseys there
Whomp says:
i see him
casey j says:
yeah but i have to run
casey j says:
see ya guys
Simon says:
cyas later
Simon says:
oh poo me too
Simon says:
dr who is on now!
Simon says:
catch you in a bit bernie
Whomp says:
ok bye simon
Whomp says:
don't nuke me ok?
Simon says:
lol#
Whomp says:


Simon has left the conversation.

Whomp says:
that wasn't very encouraging
Whomp says:
Case
Whomp says:
you there?
Whomp says:
You there?
casey j says:
hey man i had to go earlier
casey j says:
wedding cookout shower event kind of thing
Whomp says:
hey
casey j says:
hey hey
Whomp says:
I didn't mean to bug you at your party
casey j says:
nah we are back
casey j says:
yeah buddy
casey j says:
whats not encouraging
casey j says:
somebody is way behind in world population
Whomp says:
i wanted to let you know we can get maths in 4 even in anarchy
Whomp says:
if you want to give us cash in lieu of that might work better
Whomp says:
since we're in anarchy so there's not a lot of cash we can generate
Whomp says:
that seems insane to me but it's true
casey j says:
how much cash do you want
casey j says:
thats cheaper for us
Whomp says:
it's because of our contacts i'm sure
casey j says:
we are playing a standard map on emperor right?
Whomp says:
it's another reason we may consider having you give us gold through the balance of the AA's since we can get currency in ~six too
Whomp says:
i don't know if that's possible but I know some of the reduced prices will be an issue on exchanging techs
Whomp says:
But we want to be fair without getting screwed
Whomp says:
does that make sense?
casey j says:
tech cost is 157 with knowing 3 rivals who have math on emperor/standard size, so thats only 14 scientists
Whomp says:
but same with currency and construction
Whomp says:
we'll know 3 w/currency and 2 w/construction
casey j says:
yeah, well it makes sense that we buy things, since you have the contacts, its win win for both of us
Whomp says:
so the quaestion is what happens if we give techs and no techs pop from huts?
casey j says:
we will have to pay you
casey j says:
if we give you gpt, can you get currency in 4?
Whomp says:
dunno
casey j says:
we can get currency in 4 turns at the higher cost (480), but that makes less sense than buying it from you
casey j says:
it conserves more of our collective gold
Whomp says:
ok wotan thinks currency will be around ~300 beakers
casey j says:
is wotan on? you can invite him and still have a private window to talk in
casey j says:
brb
Whomp says:
he went to be about 2 hours ago
Whomp says:
k
casey j says:
back
Whomp says:
k
Whomp says:
would 180g work for maths?
casey j says:
thats 75%, i was thinking 65-75% so probably
Whomp says:
that would be a discount from ~210 beakers
Whomp says:
ok
casey j says:
we probably only need wheel, HBR, MM, philo, and math
Whomp says:
k
casey j says:
we can put it on CoL and pop the huts
casey j says:
math is showing 157 for knowing 3 people knowing the tech, we are fine with paying you 23 gold extra, i dont even know if that is right or not. im using tech calc
Whomp says:
ok we'll work on that
casey j says:
of course i have to consult the team but im sure they will go for it, since it benefits us both
Whomp says:
right it's amazing we can run that fast
Whomp says:
4 turner can't ask for much more than that
casey j says:
yeah, and even if you want to buy it from sabre, thats fine. math i mean.
Whomp says:
i'm inclined to leave them in the dust
Whomp says:
we don't want all three scientifics on fire
casey j says:
what about no trade clauses without the others consent?
Whomp says:
we should do that but honestly i don't think we have any interest in trading with saber and the other two are really far ahead
casey j says:
you think one of us should build the great library? how long have the other two been in the MAs?
Whomp says:
hard to say since we just met Council
Whomp says:
weird thing is they haven't revolted
Whomp says:
so they may have a wonder working
casey j says:
nothing has been gleaned from convo? how is your military rank against both?
casey j says:
im sure council is building the colossus
Whomp says:
i thought we were average but i think we're strong acutally
Whomp says:
we have a lot of boats out there
Whomp says:
i tried Gen W today and he was not very talkative
Whomp says:
had a lan party but honestly there's not much to talk about
casey j says:
they probably are dead set with each other, working towards astronomy to land a stack or 10
Whomp says:
exactly
casey j says:
nothing much to offer
Whomp says:
that's why we need to keep saber in the dark
casey j says:
yeah
casey j says:
well we can do 80 turn peace, formalize the no trade clause for insurance and keep each other in the loop, do the math deal (gpt or lump sum?) and trade the rest, pop the huts, and then we can see what tech costs are and what we owe you. eta 5-6 turns. then we have to sort out MA deals and tech path
casey j says:
is all that correct? you are jumping in bed with us?
Whomp says:
yep
casey j says:
one civ is way behind in pop, since together we have 47% of world population
Whomp says:
wow
Whomp says:
that's huge
casey j says:
yeah, it should improve too when you are out of anarchy and we continue to grow
Whomp says:
river bonuses!
casey j says:
I would assume sumeria has 20 something percent of pop, the other two only have about 15% apiece
casey j says:
thats not enough for them to leave us in the dust
casey j says:
we should catch up to them in short order
Whomp says:
i was shocked when we met them
casey j says:
i bet
Whomp says:
they must've sent a suicide really, really early
Whomp says:
to be that well coordinated
casey j says:
yes and got really lucky
Whomp says:
i think the resources are going to be funky too
casey j says:
to have a curragh survive 3 turns isnt high percentage
Whomp says:
rik has something up his sleeve there
Whomp says:
i know
Whomp says:
we had a few sink pre TGL
casey j says:
cool, well i hate to run but im getting yelled at, im sure they team will be interested in the deal, and the sooner we get to the MAs the sooner we can get Feudalism and Engineering. if we can plan for it we can get those in very short order (5-6 turns).
casey j says:
oh what about Leos
Whomp says:
no probs i have to go too in a sec
Whomp says:
haven't thought about leo's yet
Whomp says:
it's a big one though isn't it
casey j says:
indeed
Whomp says:
let's work out that detail as we go
Whomp says:
in the meantime figure out the math as we will
casey j says:
alright. do you have any wonder builds going?
Whomp says:
no
Whomp says:
anarchy baby
casey j says:
Forbidden Palace?
Whomp says:
finished
Whomp says:
are you there yet?
casey j says:
good deal. to give you some info, we have it due in 2 turns, but can switch it to Colossus. We were wondering how far along Korea was
casey j says:
since it is the only other commercial wonder until the end of MAs, and its cheap, and they will not get a GA with hwachas
Whomp says:
hmm dunno know. i'll try and get it out of Gen W
Whomp says:
h'wachas have to kill to get one too
casey j says:
yeah the defender must be redlined already really. if they have no plans to build it, then good deal
casey j says:
how are you going to build rails with no iron?
casey j says:
gotta capture some?
Whomp says:
i think we have some on a island
Whomp says:
just need harbors now
Whomp says:
that's why i think rik is up to something
casey j says:
ah, yes definitely an interesting map
casey j says:
well i will file a report with the team

That's a great deal. Good job guys.

Here's a thought:
If we stay WLTKD we can have Library at turn 104.

Would they be interested in giving Republic and 2 contacts in the MA
With assurances of course on deals allowed w/contacts-lowers tech cost for us with shared research path in MA. Automatic trade of tech at a big discount(thanks for getting us out of a pickle), defensive pact only? Possible war against aggressors if they need the help.

This adds 4 more turns (>1 week RL?) to work other details.

We are ready to pop huts by turn 98 or later on command.

I guess Colossus on turn 97 is okay if they prefer, but the above idea might work better for both of us.

Gotta love the farmer's gambits:)

We could also do MoM on turn 104 as well at Sugar Mtn.

I have worked out the deal to a small degree and then was booted from the comp by the family. I have a whole bunch of RL until late when I'll be able to put up our offer to the Babes.

The short of it is, we're swapping techs, 80 turns of peace, compensation for the imballance from whatever tech(s) we pop.

Thanks for the ideas Prince, I'll see if we can incorporate them but I don't think we need Republic. After we switch to Feud, which isn't terribly far away we're done w/ government changes.

Comments/Feedback/etc. welcome and needed.

I'll see if we can incorporate them but I don't think we need Republic. After we switch to Feud, which isn't terribly far away we're done w/ government changes.

I've not gotten too far with Feudal whip 100K, but I can see it works great. But aren't we limited in our expansion ability? How many more cities than 55 can we get? RF summed up build priorities pretty well I think and we need more of his opinion on this.

I think it as easy as growth then culture. Build priority (not order) is settler worker library temple when playing. Eventually there comes a point in the expansion where you have a core producing settlers, some cities near food bonuses churning workers, but the rest can't really produce a settler or a worker because they can't grow fast enough. Those start with a library, grow a bit, then a settler.

This does all change though when I get to feudalism. Then I am pop rushing culture. That seems far more effective than rep parts. (any city that has completed all the culture just builds workers to join to any city that hasn't)

On this map we just can't keep building settlers. I put his suggestion "growth then culture" together with his other idea about the rare condition of burning through to replaceable parts. I also used the same strategy kc used for the #1 spaceship but also put growth as priority. Growth equals tech I realized. Why was I slowing expansion to build libraries? Result: 850AD 100K on standard chieftain even though with seven science ai's none got monotheism, medicine, or computers on the age changes. And plenty on this team could use the strategy faster than me, since I'm just learning studying these games.

I'm not even questioning that Feudal rush isn't the best strategy for the fastest time. RF has 3-turns faster on the table above chieftain and #1 isn't even C3C. But do we need the fastest? Can we do it fast enough to avoid carriers full of bombers, and ship chains of marines? I agree getting Republic isn't of the utmost urgency, but we'll need it if we need to keep up in tech. We need some good estimates on when teams are going to get flight and amphibious war and when we can expect to reach 100K without getting many more cities than the 54-55 we see now. If we can beat the fast tech teams going for these then, I agree, let's whip and sing and dance to victory. If not, maybe we want to keep the lead in tech and use later tools to really crank the culture. We need Republic for that even if we change governments twice to at least whip temples, libraries, and a few universities, then back to Republic for fast tech. You don't just get replaceable parts, there is also rails(more pop and specialists), electricity(waterless islands), and nationalism(draft disband). Great for defense as well as acclerating what would be a slower start on 100K masking our plan longer. I'm going to go along with whatever the team thinks is best, so I'm not trying to be argumentative, only helpful.

The deal is great and I've now got no concerns about the Babes right now. I thought they might be building barracks and galley chains. The rest of the team seemed concerned as well. But they're doing farmer's gambit, just gained +2 in score in anarchy, and most of their strength probably is boats. It's a great partnership, so whatever deal we get is fine. We do need a decision whether to change DSOTM to Colossus on the next turn though. So, I'm done talking so others can give their thoughts. Just tell me when its fine to take the turn and what to build at DSOTM and don't just leave me hanging on what the team wants to do. Team Gong's wish is my command.:D

Edit: Team Free got the turn at 6:49AM EST (GMT-5) and CommandoBob usually posts turns around 2:00AM EST (GMT-5) about 15 hrs from now.

Here's a thought:
If we stay WLTKD we can have Library at turn 104.

Would they be interested in giving Republic and 2 contacts in the MA
With assurances of course on deals allowed w/contacts-lowers tech cost for us with shared research path in MA. Automatic trade of tech at a big discount(thanks for getting us out of a pickle), defensive pact only? Possible war against aggressors if they need the help.

This adds 4 more turns (>1 week RL?) to work other details.

We are ready to pop huts by turn 98 or later on command.

I guess Colossus on turn 97 is okay if they prefer, but the above idea might work better for both of us.

Gotta love the farmer's gambits:)
All good ideas. When Sabre feels they are being left out of the picture they will surely go for the Great Library. I wonder if Babes will/can attack them by then? Im sure that will be their target. I dont think Free or Council have any desire for the library since they are ahead.

I am pretty sure the Feudie rush is the way to go, the problem is the maintenance. I think we can have workers and growth in place to buy ten shields or 20 into a temple/library, switch to Feudie, whip the building, and then switch back to Republic then. Or whip, wait a turn, and whip again, but that takes a lot of worker add ins. We would then have 275 culture per turn in short order (probably closer to 300 with the other culture stuff). The problem is this is 100 gold of maintenance and growth in the outlying towns will be slowed with taxmen/scientists. But we can build more workers in the core while the other cities make bombard units and troops to handle a landing. Our research will eventually peter out though, and we will have to then just build culture (by 600 AD, when our culture doubles we will have 600 culture). If we can attain Rep Parts by then, that would be fantastic, and we can build the other 7 cpt buildings (uni, cath), taking us to right at 1000 cpt.

This makes RF's idea of ToA a great one, but only if it lasts a while. 55 gold per turn maintenance times 30 turns even would be pretty decent. I dont know if we should build Colossus or not, but it will certainly help the maintenance.

The good thing is BABE is not even considering us to go for culture, I think JB remarked how oblivious they were. We probably should even try to get a longer peace deal extension before we rush all the culture.

I think JB remarked how oblivious they were. We probably should even try to get a longer peace deal extension before we rush all the culture.

Babes once offhandedly remarked about somebody going 100k culture, but all their conversation was firmly entrenced in this turning into a naval war game.

They also seem a bit bent on settling a few lingering beefs from last game. We should certainly encourage the violence.

At what point do you think these guys are going to say, "Umm, the Gongers are going 100k!?" And if they come to the conclusion that it's a serious threat then the cooperation is going to end abruptly. We should get peace and any other kind of agreements that we can, for as long as we can. However, if our victory is pending you can bet all deals are off/broken and there will be mass cooperation to drop a real big hurt on us.

This is going to be fun. :D

OK, we do want Republic and we can have them toss that into the deal for our future use.

If the Babes don't want Monarchy, because they have not planned for an HG wornder Golden Age, then who's the next best customer for that tech and a shot at the HG's?

Would be nice to trade some techs, sounds like the only tech we have a monopoly on is monarchy. I fear we are going to be behind in techs, unless we can get another contact. I think it is pretty obvious that we weren't the first contact Babes had, I wonder if they have 2 others.

Just a thought, given that the map wraps in both directions is it worth sailing in the direction away from the Babes and seeing if we come into contact with someone else thay way.

You've probably seen the diplo conversation, but you had the same concern I did. If all teams had been dark, The Babes could've left everbody in the dust charging us for the dribbles to keep up. They do have 2 contacts, probably 3 soon. The Council and Free have a tech deal and are in MA, so the Babes are definitely needing some help. They know Sabre who is behind like us, but want to leave them behind(something about revenge). JB even offered a military alliance, and they said, "Uh..thx, but how can you help with that."(chopped quote) That leaves us free to to proceed with our 100K, help them out, play nice, and get a defense ready down the road when "all bets are off." Even keeps us in the loop with tech without carrying the load. Perfect for us, I think. We can even give assurances (do we get more Babes for that) on any deals they don't want us to do when we contact others. I want to meet FREE and probe the possibility of getting them out of the Councils grip. It was Korea's early curragh that got them to the MA. They didn't have any choice not to agree to advance. And the plan is to send boats in directions away from the Babes, I think. Babes + Gong = 47%pop 25% land now. Free is close to our size, I think.

We're definitely going to get a deal and with the Babes doing math our slider is free. The big choice for the next turn is Colossus or proceed with Library at DSOTM. Saber's industrious, and really could throw that down any turn, if they get construction all they need is Great Wall and they're Golden.

Here's my opinion, subject to the GONG (I loved that show growing up). Colossus is nice and prevents an early GA from Korea, but they need a science wonder as well. I've worked out if we stay WLTKD we can put up the Library and MoM(we don't need this, but it shuts the door on science GA) on turn 104. If Saber gets the Library, we simply continue to the next build on the priority list, ToA on turn 108 near 100% of getting. Other teams think, "yay we beat them to the Library and they took that to not eat shields". MoM just sows more confusion--"they just don't have a clue, do they"- "harmless beer guzzlers(lol)", or we foiled their plan to prevent GA. Saber with Library is dangerous(especially since the Babes don't want to deal with them), but the Babes might be able to prevent contacts or at least use their navy to contain them. Besides the savings cost there is one other security advantage of getting that wonder. Our borders pop out to sea giving us more sight in 19 turns. We probably won't be set up to switch to Feudal and whip temples and/or libraries before switching back to Republic. ToA frees maintenence and runs until Theology. If we can go the lower MA path while the Babes go the upper path, we can work the timing of tech swaps into the deal to get more use(some of this is hazy and fuzzy of course).


If the Babes don't want Monarchy, because they have not planned for an HG wornder Golden Age, then who's the next best customer for that tech and a shot at the HG's?

Team Free is the only customer and we can get that before the end of the GA at Sugar Mtn. as well, so Babe owes us something for guaranteeing not to trade that with them.

Babes once offhandedly remarked about somebody going 100k culture, but all their conversation was firmly entrenced in this turning into a naval war game.

I believe in strong navy as well. Better to sink loaded transports than deal with all the stacks that are going to land at the final countdown.

That's just a summary of what I see everybody saying and still plenty of time to work out plans, details and changes. Sorry if it isn't all laid out to the last detail.

Advice on where to spend to gold for a rushed unit appreciated and fleet directions. I'll switch the pre-build to palace next turn unless the Babes would really rather us build the Colossus or the team says no to Library with ToA fallback. All replies appreciated.:)

I vote The Great Lib as i already did on the play turn thread, we have only one contact and are behind on tech.

Although The Colossus could help on the maintenance since it seems we are going diplo.

We need to start making non-agression/border pacts with the The Babes and others to keeps us from future wars.

OK Gang, this is really so simple I'm sorry it took so long to post but I've quite a bit of RL this weekend.



The CubSox accord. (This would be an inside joke between Whomper and myself. Anybody got a better name than that?)

Peaceful Coexistence:
This treaty assures both teams Babe and Gong peace from the turn it is ratified without change by both teams for the subsequent 80 turns.

Clause spelling out termination of contract via written notification?

Technology Trading and Sharing
Team Gong will provide Mathematics and subsequent technologies popped from their remaining two huts to team Babe in return for CoL, Maps, Wheel and HBR. Base value of all techs will be the same for a Standard size map playing at Emperor level difficulty. The team receiving technologies of a higher base value (likely Gong) will compensate the other (likely Babe) 75% of the difference in base value. All fractional values are dropped from the calculation.

See appendix A for technology values/exchange rates and future compensation for the aforementioned popped huts.

Appendix A

Assuming a standard map at Emperor level technologies are assigned a base value

Math – 240
CoL – 300
MM – 360
Wheel – 120
HBR – 150
Currency – 480
Construction – 600

For example, if Gong provides Math and Currency, 720 base value, in exchange for the Babe techs, 930 base value, Gong would be obligated to provide Babe 75%* 210 = 157g.

These are simply placeholders for food for thought and unless we put some meat on these bones will not be part of the final document.
Future Technology trading: No provision
Resource trading: No provision
Luxury trading: No provision
Mutual protection: No provision


Remember this... we could shape the compensation for techs here to benefit us greatly if we were to build the TGLib. Or we could use it to endear ourselves to team Babe by making them our benefactor/protectors.

I have not made Republic part of this agreement because we'll wind up paying the Babes 75% of 840 (630g). There is no need for this if we can get the GLib on turn 104 and at the writing of this note are on turn 95.

Just got a note from Whomper and they're not going to need Math but will still just swap all the techs plus 150g from us. That seems pretty fair.

Notes...
jb1964 says:
Hey, I finaly typed up our rather simple agreement and posted it on Gong for review.
Whomp says:
ok cool
Whomp says:
did cane tell you we can do maths in 4 even in anarchy?
jb1964 says:
I thought I read that and was impressed
jb1964 says:
That's a lot of food and peeps
Whomp says:
much better for us the use the cash from you then try to hire taxmen
jb1964 says:
OK, so math isn't going to be part of what we send your way then?
Whomp says:
correct
jb1964 says:
Did you discuss w/ Cane the goingn rate on techs?
Whomp says:
you'll give us some cash while you go zero science
Whomp says:
i think 150g was what we talked about
Whomp says:
it's 180 beakers at our rate because of contacts
jb1964 says:
OK, that works
Whomp says:
another thought on how you can help us by getting you caught up...
Whomp says:
how about you do the Glib?
jb1964 says:
There's great debate over that currently
jb1964 says:
different factions want to go other routes
jb1964 says:
How would you suggest we sahre the GLib if we can get it?
Whomp says:
well council and free will be way ahead
Whomp says:
obviously we'd need you to meet them
jb1964 says:
Hey, i have to change comps....

OK, when did they want us to accept that, jb?








EDIT: Ignore post, stupid question.

OK, here's more thread than you want to read... I'll sumarize below.

I hope you guys are OK w/ goodwill and a handshake but here's the deal... Babe's ready to be our long time buddies regarding techs, luxes, resources, etc.
They're going to send us all remaining required techs minus construction and curr. On the next turn we're sending them a 150g downpayment on these techs or whatever downpayment we're willing to muster.
We're going to pop the huts and send them whatever we get.
Whoever gets the better of the deal will compensate the other in gold based on discounted beakers.
Whomper and I will be working a bit of the numbers tomorrow while we should be earning a paycheck. :p

On the intell side...
Whomper tells me that Free is in very close proximity to us and Council has their back.
Whomp confirms that they, Free, don't have a safe navigable route at the moment but are probably close to making knights. We need a reaction force to deny access to our beaches. GS's would do nicely thank you very much.
Free may not know we're close to each other but it's certainly nice for us to know.


b1964 says:
jb1964 says:
So if we were able to build the Lib we should work out an agreement to swap techs for some time to come...
Whomp says:
yep and i think we're giving a pretty good head start
Whomp says:
we've been pretty lucky with philo free tech and huts popped
jb1964 says:
I hope we get the same w/ currency and contruction
Whomp says:
i think we should begin construction regardless don't you?
jb1964 says:
Before you do check in w/ us re: the Great Lib
Whomp says:
ok
Whomp says:
we need to understand what happens if construction and currency come through if we're giving all these techs. fair enough?
jb1964 says:
durring the KISS golden age we built units...
jb1964 says:
these guys are pretty expert and milking production
Whomp says:
i think the play level has been raised a bit in this game
Whomp says:
so pretty big turnplayers
jb1964 says:
these guys were looking to me to take some turns
jb1964 says:
not going to happen
Whomp says:
hehe
Whomp says:
that's the way i feel with wotan and therat
jb1964 says:
So when talking w/ Cane the 150g was based on Math for your techs?
Whomp says:
we can get maths in 4 in anarchy
Whomp says:
while you can run 0% science
Whomp says:
and give us cash instead
jb1964 says:
right, I'm trying to figure out what your expectations are so we can work it out when we get const and/or curr
Whomp says:
here's the way i see it
jb1964 says:
talk to me brother
Whomp says:
first on maths
Whomp says:
we can do it in 4 in anarchy so rather than having you do it when you're able to get cash (we can't in anarchy) we both win
Whomp says:
hence why we should do maths
Whomp says:
that's first
Whomp says:
2nd though we want you as a partner we'd like to get a fair deal in return on the techs we give.
Whomp says:
does that make sense?
jb1964 says:
totally
jb1964 says:
couldn't agree more
Whomp says:
that's one of the reasons i was thinking Glib could be done by you
Whomp says:
of course if both construction and currency comes through we can manuever on techs
Whomp says:
we would not be adverse to receiving cash too btw
Whomp says:
which again if you're running zero science until we give you math and then while you pop huts then that should alleviate it too
Whomp says:
[ ZoneAlarm Security alert: Session not encrypted because bawhomp@yahoo.com is not protected by IM Security ]
Whomp says:
oops
jb1964 says:
any idea why I keep blinking out?
Whomp says:
no
jb1964 says:
you send us the tehcs
Whomp says:
right
jb1964 says:
after we have math and other we pop huts
jb1964 says:
you get what we get
Whomp says:
and then we figure out what happens based on the huts
Whomp says:
we just want fair value for the techs
jb1964 says:
base values, discounted, how would you figure that?
Whomp says:
even a discount for our friends but we just want to be rewarded for our knowledge
Whomp says:
i wouldn't think base values since you'll meet others
jb1964 says:
The base of your techs was about 930
jb1964 says:
math is 240 and we may already be researching it, I hope not
Whomp says:
i told him last night so i dunno if prince already set it our not
Whomp says:
maths cost us about 180 i think
jb1964 says:
Nope, we're one turn from hitting it and I'll make sure we don't
Whomp says:
good
Whomp says:
much better if you run cash than us
jb1964 says:
I'm just going off of base Standard/Emperor values, I'm really not that clued into the Tech Calcs and have been using the utility heaviliy the last few hours
jb1964 says:
Yes, us in GA and all
Whomp says:
wotan ran the numbers
Whomp says:
want me to tell you what he came up with?
jb1964 says:
The numbers I looked at were at about a 55-60% discount given that we're last in line
jb1964 says:
sorry, 55-60% of base value, not discount
jb1964 says:
But if we give you both Currency and construction wont you wind up owing us?
Whomp says:
i think he was looking at COL, wheel, philo, HBR, MM and IW...
Whomp says:
so really IW shouldn't have been in his total
Whomp says:
cuz you're finishing that next, correct?
jb1964 says:
right, we have that next turn, yes, you're up to date
Whomp says:
ok then his #'s are off
Whomp says:
he was including IW
jb1964 says:
Well, if he's up on the numbers then give them to me and I'll plug them into the agreement. Obviously we're going to get there anyway and we should bypass my ignorance if possible
jb1964 says:
Well, if he's up on the numbers then give them to me and I'll plug them into the agreement. Obviously we're going to get there anyway and we should bypass my ignorance if possible
Whomp says:
[ ZoneAlarm Security alert: Session not encrypted because bawhomp@yahoo.com is not protected by IM Security ]
Whomp says:
1,161 beakers (w/IW) and 840 beakers for currency and construct
jb1964 says:
drop IW and make sure to include math
Whomp says:
maths cost us 180 instead of 210
jb1964 says:
I don't have tech calc on this comp
Whomp says:
i don't eihter
jb1964 says:
well, base on Math was 240
jb1964 says:
what's base on IW?

Whomp says:

jb1964 says:
No matter, we'll get you both Curr and Construction
jb1964 says:
just let me know the delta
Whomp says:
well the big question is whether we should research construc
Whomp says:
just in case that's 40% chance doesn't happen
jb1964 says:
seems like there have been a lot of techs popped, I think they fiddled w/ the odds
Whomp says:
you think?
jb1964 says:
We're probably not going to get both so we need to stay abreast of wht's happening
Whomp says:
well it could be because we got 4 i think
jb1964 says:
*cough*
Whomp says:
right
jb1964 says:
So to make this easier should we simply make an agreement on mutual research?
jb1964 says:
Tech sharing and the like?
Whomp says:
yes
Whomp says:
absolutely
jb1964 says:
Anything for simplification
Whomp says:
we need to catch free/council
Whomp says:
and leave saber in the dust
Whomp says:
the only thing i ask is fair
Whomp says:
we all know each other well enough to be fair
jb1964 says:
If we get Great Lib the powers that be are going to want you to send more that Charlise our way
Whomp says:

Whomp says:
twins ok?
jb1964 says:
18, sweedish
Whomp says:
[ ZoneAlarm Security alert: Session not encrypted because bawhomp@yahoo.com is not protected by IM Security ]
Whomp says:
http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/8977/058272747s001122452lozm5.jpg
Whomp says:
teacher?
jb1964 says:
OK, If we get the Lib... one moment...
jb1964 says:
OK, Suzy and Dr. Bambi will suffice
Whomp says:

jb1964 says:
Charlise is still great eye candy
Whomp says:
we have more
jb1964 says:
OH man, you should have Harriet watching over your shoulder
Whomp says:
she is
jb1964 says:
Haha
jb1964 says:
Back to the Lob
Whomp says:
ok so we'll do math
jb1964 says:

Great friggin' Library
Whomp says:
i think that's negotiable and assumes you get zero huts
jb1964 says:
We're going to sop up a buttload of techs
Whomp says:
are you going to have any barb issues?
jb1964 says:
That's been quelled
Whomp says:
actually it would've already happened, right?
Whomp says:
because the other two are in the MA's
jb1964 says:
We've had our run in w/ the barbs but that's history
Whomp says:
so you've got the area covered where the huts are
jb1964 says:
Wait, you mean if we get the Lib prior to popping the huts
Whomp says:
no the glib if you don't pop huts
jb1964 says:
yes, then if we go to MA the huts get nasty
Whomp says:
if you don't get anything from the huts
jb1964 says:
They'll be popped prior to any run at the Lib
Whomp says:
then you do Glib
Whomp says:
right
Whomp says:
you have to in the AAs
jb1964 says:
Yep, I'm up on that nuance
Whomp says:
but what i'm saying is let's assume you get nothing from both huts
jb1964 says:
OK, gentleman's handshake
Whomp says:
does that make sense?
jb1964 says:
Yes, I think I understand your meaning
Whomp says:
ok
Whomp says:
cool
jb1964 says:
We'll formalize this sometime quickly
Whomp says:
i want to be fair and if the feeling is Glib is too much then we can figure other stuff out
jb1964 says:
but you will not walk away from this deal in a foul mood, I'll see to that, I'm looking to stay on good terms w/ everyone
Whomp says:
yes i'll have the #'s guys give me the beaker count and we'll match #'s tomorrow
Whomp says:
cool

[Off topic/record conversation]

Oh, another topic...
jb1964 says:
resources and luxes
Whomp says:
yes
jb1964 says:
if we're in this deep we might as well look to swap everything up to bodily fluids
Whomp says:
yep
Whomp says:
you guys need to be very aware of Free
Whomp says:
Kuningas is on that team and he is mighty good
Whomp says:
and they are closest to you
Whomp says:
that's on record btw
jb1964 says:
OK, when possible, when we can trade available resources we'll be giving you rights of first refusal
Whomp says:
cool
Whomp says:
that's fair
jb1964 says:
It only makes sence
Whomp says:
absolutely and i think rik has surprises on the resource front
jb1964 says:
no doubt that
jb1964 says:
So Free's in our backyard, but DO NOT have a safe navigable route to our shores?
Whomp says:
it's still something to be aware of though
Whomp says:
it won't be long before they have knights
jb1964 says:
Agreed, and just clarifying
Whomp says:
another reason to keep saber in the dark...sipahis
jb1964 says:
We'll make sure a landing is impossible and/or very costly
jb1964 says:
Ya, they can go down that path by their lonesome
Whomp says:
well they may not know what we know but it's worth knowing they're closest to you
Whomp says:
and have Council to their back
jb1964 says:
most kewl
jb1964 says:
I would say we have a lot to digest but I think we're pretty clear about everything
Whomp says:
ok so i think we just need to hammer out the beaker values and contigencies if currency and construction don't hit
Whomp says:
xpost
jb1964 says:

Whomp says:
idiot minds think alike
jb1964 says:
The Gongers will rejoice
Whomp says:
tell them....I love you, man :cry:

Whomp says:
do you have wheel?
jb1964 says:
nope

jb1964 says:
I should put it on this comp as well but I've been trying to keep it clean
jb1964 says:
So, we're going to get the save next before you...
jb1964 says:
We'll send the 150g downpayment
Whomp says:
if installments are better let us know
jb1964 says:
I think we've got the cash but if not we'll send the first payment
Whomp says:
cool it will be nice to short rush in republic soon

Im pretty sure its

GONG ISLAND

FREE BABE

Beyond that its hard to say. Council has Free's back and their early contact indicates they are adjacent to them somehow, hard to say where. It hardly matters if FREE has Knights, they need Astronomy to get them somewhere!

It seems as if BABE is intent on taking on Sabre asap and initiating their golden age.

If we build the GLibrary, I think we should finish the FP there first and take the extra gpt generated. I think we should have a good shot as long as BABE acts like they are going to trade with Sabre. If we lose out, we still have a prebuild for Leos. If the others shoot for Astro, then good deal, we will get that too by delaying contact. Assuming Free is SW, we can block them and make them land somewhere nice and non hilly should they come.

If we build the GLibrary, I think we should finish the FP there first and take the extra gpt generated. I think we should have a good shot as long as BABE acts like they are going to trade with Sabre. If we lose out, we still have a prebuild for Leos. If the others shoot for Astro, then good deal, we will get that too by delaying contact. Assuming Free is SW, we can block them and make them land somewhere nice and non hilly should they come.

OK, I'll see if I can get Babe to bait Sabre into thinking the tech deals are coming. If nothing else to just drag their feet on communication. If Sabre thinks they're out in the cold they're going to scamper for GLib fast.

The odds of the other tech trading block going for GLib are slim to none.

Following note sent to Babe per Killercane's thots....

Hey Whomper, I'll be on later this evening but wanted to prime the pump, so to speak, before that.

Prince started sending you gold. He didn't have 150g laying around so it's going to come in installments.

We're prepped to pop the huts the turn we get the Techs.

I know you're interested in stuffing Sabre but is there a way we can use them to counter the other block? Making a 3v2 alliance for the time being and saving the Sabre bloodshed for a later date?

Big picture, 3 kills 2, we kill Sabre, we shake hands and wish each other the best.

Whether or not we work out a 3v2 deal with them we need you to string them along w/ discussions, and maybe even a deal or two, to keep them from going after GLib w/ a pre-build. Can you spell out their current techs for us and any assessment you may have as to pre-builds?

We'll make a run at the GLib but we don't have anything pre built that would make it a sure thing. We had a run at pumping out units to cover our shores that took the focus off bigger infrasturcture builds. We think we can still get it but the risk being Sabre might leverage a pre-build and the upside is we'll both be getting more from the Free/Council techs machine if delayed.

Now for the real good news. We have two sources of iron.

I didn't want to tell him we're going FP first in a gambit to pull down more gold and I wanted to leave him the impression we had enough units running about to stuff a landing should that be lurking in the back's of their collective Blonde Bombshell Babe head.

If I laid out the FP to GLib idea that's just too much info.

Dont say anything about what wonders we building, what we hoping to kill or unite or whatever, just talk about the weather ;), better yet, just pretend we lost the ability to speak at all until things get a bit clear.

Our atitude should be - we dont know nothing, we dont plan nothing, we just make it up as we go along, now lets trade some more techs pls?

Whomper's response to the suggested 3v2 schenario was a cold one. Babe is absolutely not interested in helping Sabre in any way shape or form. So a 3v2 (Gong/Babe/Sabre vs. Council/Free) scenario is out.

Looks like we're in w/ Babe for the time being.

Although Babe's not interested in the 3v2 scenario it would be good if we could find Sabre and yank their chain ourselves w/ enough tech sharing and cooperation to keep them off our scent. Or at the very least keep them guessing.

We need to find the others so we don't have to broker through Babe.

Jb1964 i need you to get us World Map from Babe, we can offer Monarchy and money in return, go ask what they want for it pls. Thks.

We cant trade maps, unless that has been moved to Mapmaking by Rik.

2.4 - Map Trading
Screenshots and visual maps cannot be traded between teams until Map Making is researched. After that, teams are free to trade screenshots as a normal trade item. Verbal maps (descriptions of the terrain, however detailed, as long as no images are involved) are allowed without any prerequisite.

I will ask for it when I get a chance but I'm going to out of the loop until Sunday evening.

Tomorrow's my daughter's birthday and Friday I'm off for the weekend to fish in Lake Erie.

BTW Whomp's currently not available. I'll hit him w/ a PM.

Appreciation for the techs has been sent and a request for the timing of Math and willingness & cost of world Map.

Be prepared for a reciprocal request for our map. Is there anything to our country and city layout that you would not want to divulge?

The tight spacing might make it obvious we are going for 100k? The potential passage to the south?

Damn RF is right. I think we should hold off on giving up our map. We really dont need their map too badly.

I dont agree, Babe as to be the most clear on the world map by know, they havve galleys and Lighthouse for ages, we profite a lot more the we lose.

If we have world map at this time we can plan the future much better, we are too closed in our shelf.

As for the passages i alreay lost 1 curragh trying it, so i estimate the lose of many galleys trying that passages, meaning the loss of production shields that could be making other things.

Lets just ask their map and what they want for it, we dont lose nothing for trying, then we argue, the price they ask will also give us an idea of what they know by now ;)

Lets quit sending suicide curraghs/galleys, we are losing too much in trying to get them out and about. Let the others find us.

The tight spacing might make it obvious we are going for 100k? The potential passage to the south?

Thank you for getting my point. I'm going to suggest to the Babes that we purchase their world map minus the details of their lands. Let 'em blot it out but provide us some details as to routes and proximity to the others.

I got this in a PM from whomper in response to my questions about the other three:

We haven't traded with Saber since we're afraid of accelerating their tech pace. They're still a few techs behind in the AA and we'd prefer to keep it that way. We've offered to trade for their MA free tech which they haven't responded to. Our contact with Council and Free has been sparse. With the lack of trading opportunities there's not much to say.

We'll consider maps after we get confirmation that you're on board with a long term plan. We could consider some verbal suggestions.

A conversation w/ the Whomper this evening.

jb1964 says:
hey, diving running long and I'm here for about another 20 minutes
jb1964 says:
Us Mono, you Feud, sounds good
Whomp says:
yeah that way you can still build GS
Whomp says:
and then let us know if you want feud
jb1964 says:
Sabre should be running for the GLib and so are we
Whomp says:
they're way behind in techs
Whomp says:
so they may have to
jb1964 says:
That's why they'll likely be building it
Whomp says:
maybe we should whack them
jb1964 says:
Whacking is good
jb1964 says:
Seriously, if you have the capacity to give them a spanking then I would be all for it to assure us the GLib and the spoils
Whomp says:
We may have to think about that
Whomp says:
do you have an approximate timeframe on Glib?
jb1964 says:
Once Council/Free get to galleons your Lighthouse advantage is gone
jb1964 says:
turn 111
Whomp says:
yes so we figure they're beelining there
Whomp says:
i'd think caravels instead of galleons though...i think
jb1964 says:
Double checked, prior to passing to you we're 10 turns away.
Whomp says:
ok that's huge
Whomp says:
here's the thing
Whomp says:
if we wait to give you contact with council and free we may get more techs
Whomp says:
so once it's finished we can give you contact instead of now
jb1964 says:
yes, that's the reward part of that gamble that I was for and now am totally sweating
jb1964 says:
total agreement
Whomp says:
well maybe we need to rattle saber to get them off that gig
jb1964 says:
And if they bump into us we'll let you know
Whomp says:
OK on maps
jb1964 says:
If you do pelase take pictures of the carnage.
jb1964 says:
OK? or talk about maps?
Whomp says:
I think the concern was whether we were getting duped
jb1964 says:
pfft
jb1964 says:
Sorry, but I think we're all a bit one-dimensional here
Whomp says:
I think people will be appeased by this conversation
jb1964 says:
I would love to set something down that's elaborate and clever, and maybe we could pull it off if needed, but at the moment we're very much tied to your success.
jb1964 says:
And by we I mean you and us
Whomp says:
We've had a good plan so far
jb1964 says:
Ya, no reason to friggin' tank it
Whomp says:
We should decide whether we're willing to partner till the other three are gone
jb1964 says:
So what did you think of Daghie's 25g's
Whomp says:
or 2 or 1?
Whomp says:
that was very nice
jb1964 says:
If you want a partnership that's solid through the ages I'm willing to bet the team are open to that
Whomp says:
ok
Whomp says:
I'm not adverse to saying a certain time or number of teams left or whatever. The key is we need to at least beeline to galleons and cavs
Whomp says:
maybe even steam
jb1964 says:
I wish daghie was on...
Whomp says:
He gets up early in the morning
jb1964 says:
he and others are much better w/ long term strat
Whomp says:
it's ok think about where we would terminate
Whomp says:
my objective would be mano a mano
Whomp says:
that may not work for you though
jb1964 says:
No, that would be just fine
Whomp says:
table it
jb1964 says:
And we should collaborate until it's just us
jb1964 says:
Let me "talk" my way thru this
jb1964 says:
OK, Sabre is only a minor distraction and can be a pain in the ass if they get to GLib first
jb1964 says:
the real power is the Free/Counci alliance
Whomp says:
Yep
jb1964 says:
If we're not united, and armed, they'll find a way to crack us one at a time
Whomp says:
We're agreed on that
jb1964 says:
Resources are going to play a major role
Whomp says:
Rik has not made it easy
Whomp says:
My guess is we will be gifting resources to each other
Whomp says:
salt or coal may be scarce...just a thought
jb1964 says:
certainly, I would like to find that the Council/Free alliance has an f'ed up resource mix
jb1964 says:
however, we can't count on that and actually should plan for the opposite
Whomp says:
No doubt
jb1964 says:
Well, fate brouhgt the Babes and Gongesr together and let's take it to the tribes to last until it's just us two.
Whomp says:
:)
jb1964 says:
It's going to be hard as hell later on to actually make a landing
Whomp says:
you'd think
Whomp says:
marines may be more important than we think
jb1964 says:
Ok, that must have been a sign because now I do need to leave for the meet. It's going to be a late night.

OK, here's the way I see it....
Saber is screwed and likely to be attacked by the Babes.
The Free/Council team is a beast and seems likey to be cranking on techs for a military beating on the rest of us until it's just them.
The GLib will set us free!
If we don't partner w/ the Babes militarily I think the F/C axis will beat on us one at a time until it's just them.

Now here's the hard part for me...
If we really do need to join w/ the Babes to put down the F/C axis it's going to be their 2 military forces vs. our 1.5 because we'll be pumping culture and not the huge numbers of units that we could.

Anyway, I've opened the robe for the Babes as to some of our plans and now they're willing to sign up for a deal to last until it's just us. Then we would be in a race to see if they could get to Domination before we could get to 100k. I say that we agree to the mono-a-mono pact and we can let them have minor advantages in land ownership while we keep our ICS cultural bomb hidded from sight.

It was funny, in another part of the conversation Whomper said his team thought we were asking for their map under false friendship and had intentions of turnig on them. They thought we were playing them. In a sense, we are playing them in that we're running the 100k factory under their noses but we're not aiming to have them killed ever.

Then again, we could tell them to pound it and sit back until the F/C axis came to crack our heads.

It would be fun if we could find a way to get the other axis to turn on each other. Long shot, but worth a daydream or two.

Excellent jb. I think that was a constructive chat. Marines will be the key if we play it right and the big Q is if we can be close or even over the 100K limit by the. It has been on the table before but I cannot remember any of the bean counters coming up with a definate answer. I could try to make a draft on a mano a mano treaty including tech/rescource swapping. IF we're able to get a 100K before marines we may not need that many troops to aid Babes in their Sabre campaign since we can build an island fortress blocking the coasts with a shield of, say, 20 units. A lot of other, unpredictable, factors come in play of course so the important thing for the moment is not the details, but inking a big pic treaty on mano a mano.

There is one downfall with 100k - someone only needs to get to 60K to move the goal posts. Wouldn't it be funny if they could keep us at bay culturally and we could keep them at bay from domination (Holding 35% of the land would do it!) and it ended up being a space race!

Come to think of it there's another Marine in the deck. The Council will have Hwachas instead of cannons and they have sea bombardment IIRC (correct me if I'm wrong here).

EDIT: I just pm'd Wotan to see if he is interested in discussing our plans in the language of heroes and glory, i.e. swedish.

FREE is NW of us and Wotan is thinking Kuningas might be planning a galley ship chain attack w knights. That would be to our N coast.
Babes will be sending Currency any turn and will then start Feud while we go Mono. He is all in for a long term agreement btw.

Whomper is staying off of MSN and has not given feedback regarding research. I'm off to another swim meet that will likely go late so I'm not sure we're going to get feedback from the Babes prior to our need to pass the save along.

If anything comes in I'll broadcast it to the Gonger world.

OK, the Babes are going to try and bait Sabre into giving them data on the status of their wonder builds. Best of luck with that. See note in the spoiler.
After they finish Currency they're going to take a peak at whether or not the axis of dirtbags has built Engineering. If they have not they'll research that next.
We'll be getting Currency and an idea of if the Axis of Dirt is going balls out to Astro.

Whomp says:
want to see the letter i'm proposing to send saber?
jb1964 says:
I'll give you beer for it
Whomp says:
Hi Dutch,
I wanted to drop you a line because we've recognized that the Free/Council partnership is becoming a research juggernaut. We've been building a prebuild for our GA but have considered shifting it to the Glib instead. We think it's in all of our best interests that we contend with these two and are willing to share if you'd consider paying us gpt for the techs you're missing (ex your free tech of course). What do you guys think of this idea?
Whomp says:
all bs
jb1964 says:
you're friggin' evil
Whomp says:
anything i should add?
jb1964 says:
let me ponder....
jb1964 says:
I would toss in a note that Gong is in dis-array
Whomp says:
nah let them ask
jb1964 says:
ok
jb1964 says:
much better
Whomp says:
les info to the others the better
jb1964 says:
the best lie has the fewest details
Whomp says:
it's not a lie
Whomp says:
we're prebulding....
jb1964 says:
OK, scam
Whomp says:
mounted warriors :evil:
jb1964 says:
have they asked you for peace?
Whomp says:
no
jb1964 says:
interesting
Whomp says:
we have 20 with council
Whomp says:
and free finally found us
Whomp says:
suicide galley
jb1964 says:
hmmm, well they have not found us
Whomp says:
fully suicide btw so they don't know how the map is laid out
jb1964 says:
I just don't think there's much of a chance that we're going to see a suicide galley/knight landing
Whomp says:
until they figure out the landing zones they're not a threat
jb1964 says:
I trust wotan but there are better targets than us.
jb1964 says:
Hey, who the hell want's to deal w/ Sapahis... tell 'em to say hello to sabre
Whomp says:
and they didn't get to us by landing zone
Whomp says:
zactly
Whomp says:
enkidus and those weird cannons won't do much against sipaphis
jb1964 says:
Well, we're going to pass along the save in the morning....
Whomp says:
daghie's a morning person
Whomp says:
he gets up sometimes when i'm going to bed
jb1964 says:
Daghie and others are of the mind to shut down research and wait out the Fabulous Lib.
jb1964 says:
He's in Norway (I think).
Whomp says:
ok well i think the only thing is engineering
Whomp says:
assuming they haven't researched it
jb1964 says:
Ya, talk to me about that, I didn't quite get the gist of your PM
Whomp says:
well my presumption is they're beelining to nav
Whomp says:
so they'll skip engineering unless they got it for free
jb1964 says:
Ah, you think the axis of dirtbags in going to astro w/o hitting engineering
jb1964 says:
once you enter the MA can't you determine if they have Engineering to trade?
Whomp says:
yes
jb1964 says:
kewl
Whomp says:
i think civassist II tells us
Whomp says:
I think the view is having you short rush some libs would make sense
jb1964 says:
boosting our research potential would be good.
jb1964 says:
we'll need it
Whomp says:
well with pyramids it should be quite a combo
Whomp says:
along with some specialist farms
jb1964 says:
Alright then, we have more to talk about after you get a peek at the techs the axis of dirtbags does or does not have
jb1964 says:
Have fun baiting Sabre

Whomp says:
and free finally found us
Without saying anything else, would it be possible to get Whomp's definition of "finally"? I understood Wotan as Babes meeting Free right after they met us and that was some time ago. Don't know if it's important but if one of them is BS'ing we might find ourselves between a rock and a Motorhead gig.

Without saying anything else, would it be possible to get Whomp's definition of "finally"? I understood Wotan as Babes meeting Free right after they met us and that was some time ago. Don't know if it's important but if one of them is BS'ing we might find ourselves between a rock and a Motorhead gig.

In context it sounds like they had contact previously (and for a long time) but Free finally knows where Babe Island is (although not the passages off it).

From this I infer that babes were the ones doing the exploration.

In context it sounds like they had contact previously (and for a long time) but Free finally knows where Babe Island is (although not the passages off it).

From this I infer that babes were the ones doing the exploration.

I think that's exactly what it means but I will get clarification from Whomp the next time I see him. And if any of you want to strike a chat with him and post the resulting conversation please do so.

A PM from Wotan and my reply....

We are now in MA. Looking at research costs for the three first tier techs give us info FREE/Council have Feudalism and Engineering but not Mono? So I guess that more or less decides it for us. We probably need to go for Mono on our own. We will start on Feudalism now so I guess you start on Mono next turn?

This is very interesting. The FC axis is not as far as I would have thought. If they had been clever enough to get Mono also it would have blinded us from seeing into their technology stack. Whatever.

IIRC, it's Mono, Theo, Education, Astro... Well, they're making a dash to Military Tradition. If they come back to the top tier then they'll be trying to land cavalry to take on muskets, bombardment and withering counter attacks. And that's assuming they can even land. No railroading into anyone's territory this time. Sorry guys, I'm not impressed. Dashing for Astro and sending knights would have been better.

Babes, you rule the oceans for the time being, and for longer than I thought the Axis of Dirt would allow, so how do we take advantage of this?

Babes, you rule the oceans for the time being, and for longer than I thought the Axis of Dirt would allow, so how do we take advantage of this?

OK with an ocean map (provided by Babe) we know where they will be coming from and what routes they will take. Can we do better than a sentry net, and block all the coastal routes forcing them to ship chain longer (and sink more often). Galley to galley combat is an even match so by attacking the boats when we see them we could disrupt the process.

I like RF's idea here. Some blocks will force them to spend some time in sea or ocean tiles.

Problem solved I believe. Sorry to rock the boat needlessly (especially when the BABEs will be pretty pissed to see our culture skyrocket in a few turns :mischief:).

Whomp says:
haha
Whomp says:
ok we're all here
jb1964 says:
Hola my friends
Casey says:
cool hang on just one sec
Whomp says:
Wotan's playing the save
Whomp says:
it seems he and Daghie talked in their native tongue
jb1964 says:
What, "Drummer"?
Whomp says:
Yep
Whomp says:
cubs swept today....anything you want to say?
Casey says:
k back
jb1964 says:
SWwept who?
Whomp says:
white sox
Whomp says:

jb1964 says:
I regret I had to hear that from you..
jb1964 says:
I would have much rather been totally obnoxious about it
Whomp says:
i nipped it in the bud
jb1964 says:
but it really doesn't matter, theey still suckj
Whomp says:
OK can we summarize?
Casey says:
yes lets do for slow me
Whomp says:
mono hasn't been researched
Whomp says:
by anyone
Casey says:
indeed
Whomp says:
feud and engineering have
jb1964 says:
The FC axis of dirtbags is goign lower teir
Whomp says:
right
Whomp says:
so after you finish mono and we finish feud
Whomp says:
you turn off research
jb1964 says:
OK
Whomp says:
we run hot on chiv
Whomp says:
Now I know it doesn't benefit you now
Whomp says:
but you're running cash
Casey says:
well that was my question, why we were going to mono, as i thought you said we should do mono, chivalry, and then theology. since we were probably going to get mono 2 turns later with the GLibrary, I was wondering. seems i confused everyone
Whomp says:
no
Casey says:
but it fits in with your timetable better right?
Whomp says:
i think feud and mono should be good in 5
Whomp says:
we can then run chiv ~5-6 right?
Whomp says:
in that timeframe Glib comes in
Casey says:
i dont know what your science capacity is, but probably sure
Whomp says:
ok so three techs in 10-11 turns
Whomp says:
then Glib pops
Casey says:
i didnt know you guys wanted knights so badly
Whomp says:
it would be nice to upgrade MWs
Whomp says:
We need to find some horses for you guys
Casey says:
indeed. ok so what turn do you want monotheism sent over?
Whomp says:
when you finish
Whomp says:
i think we're timed exactly
jb1964 says:
when we finish is variable
jb1964 says:
give us a turn and we'll put it into the plan
Casey says:
right but when will you get Feudalism so we can orchestrate scientists or taxmen better
Whomp says:
well it seems we need to turn down feud then...
Whomp says:
we could have it in 5
Casey says:
no i started mono this past turn
Whomp says:
full speed?
Casey says:
it showed 6 turns
Whomp says:
ok
jb1964 says:
but that can be accelerate?
jb1964 says:
d
Casey says:
yes it can
Whomp says:
I think the faster we roll the better we'll both be
jb1964 says:
brb, got to talk w/ the better half....
Casey says:
this is why i waited until the nth hour to play the turn, trying to get on the same page and i seemed to have rocked the boat needlessly
Casey says:
but no one had impressed the need for chivalry on me
Whomp says:
Sorry I may not have been clear
Whomp says:
there's no need for you I found out today
Whomp says:
i didn't realize you didn't have horses
Whomp says:
so we'll do it alone
Whomp says:
worst case is you can do KT if you want
Casey says:
no one had mentioned that we didnt have them so i looked (had the save open while i did all this post wedding stuff)
Whomp says:
if Glib fell through
Casey says:
well i dont think it will, if you guys string sabre along well enough
Whomp says:
they still haven't responded and don't have lit still
Casey says:
that sounds good
Whomp says:
they're missing contacts too iirc
Whomp says:
I think they've met Council and us
Casey says:
ah
jb1964 says:
But they're worthless to Council
Whomp says:
Zactly
Whomp says:
they made a big mistake going Ottos
Casey says:
well i wanted to apologize, dags seemed to be mad and everyone else, i only saw where wotan said research mono and wanted to know why in an effort to coordinate better
Casey says:
sabre's capital is size 7 with no growth
Whomp says:
that tells me they must be either at happy max or prebuilding?
Casey says:
well you would see their prebuild, i really dont know why
Whomp says:
happy max
Whomp says:
iirc there's two luxs per island?
Casey says:
yep
Whomp says:
maybe they're building a market with it
Casey says:
maybe
Casey says:
so you will have feudalism on turn 109?
Whomp says:
i think wotan said 5 turns
Casey says:
from last turn right?
Casey says:
not the current one he is playing?
Whomp says:
let me look real quick
jb1964 says:
Just check and let us know by next turn, we'll adjust
Whomp says:
just a fyi SABER still down MM, Constr., HBR, Lit and Mysticism
Whomp says:
We have 6 turns to Feudalism
Whomp says:
on last turn so 5 more
jb1964 says:
They are so frigging screwed it's not funny
Whomp says:
If we get the best and fastest boats first they sure are
jb1964 says:
So if you're 5 turns from now we can drop Mono on you 5 turns from now and that shold work just fine.
Whomp says:
that would be coordinated
Whomp says:
i will have wotan pm you speeds
Whomp says:
Case--what I mentioned to JB is Free or Council is going to have to run top half at some point
Whomp says:
they'll both be researching
Casey says:
yep
Whomp says:
we'll only need one of us to research
Casey says:
so mono on turn 110
Casey says:
or 109 so we can give it to you a turn early and you can still take off i guess
Whomp says:
The sooner you finish the sooner you go max cash
jb1964 says:
Hey Cane, when do we want Feud?
Casey says:
anytime is fine, it obsoletes the gallics
Whomp says:
we can wait if you'd prefer
Casey says:
i dont think it matters
Casey says:
MDI are pretty good as well
Whomp says:
Pikes too
Casey says:
so send over mono on turn 109? or 108?
Casey says:
just to be clear
jb1964 says:
The GS's are nice but they're not the critical unit here...
Whomp says:
Wotan just asked for a ETA. If we get it 108 then we can start chiv on 109
Casey says:
so you are doing feudalism in 4 turns
Whomp says:
from 104 it's 6 turns
Whomp says:
so 104, 5, 6, 7, 8, and 9
Whomp says:
i'm struggling to even count
Casey says:
ok i guess that is feudalism in 5 turns
Casey says:
we do mono in 4 to send it on across
Whomp says:
ok then that sounds well timed
Whomp says:
then run cash
Casey says:
yes i think, quote think, we can do that schedule, we jsut have to turn a lot of scientists over to take it from 6 to 4 (and we lose our golden age in 4, which will be difficult to figure out)
Whomp says:
right
Casey says:
do you know when our golden age ends in pbem?
Whomp says:
20 turns
Whomp says:
same
Casey says:
yes but there is a bug
Whomp says:
on the IT?
Whomp says:
i can't remember how that happends
Casey says:
we end on turn 108 so does it calculate it before and we lose a turn?
Whomp says:
Eeesh

jb1964 has left the conversation.

Whomp says:
i tried searching it
Casey says:
well i will work it out, if we have to run a bazillion more scientists then so be it
Casey says:
to make sure
Casey says:
cause it also affects our lux slider
Whomp says:
Sorry for the confusion
Casey says:
did you invite jb back?

jb1964 has been added to the conversation.

jb1964 has left the conversation.

Casey says:
alright well i think we are on the same page now, if feudalism is coming in on turn 110 let me know so we can MM like crazy
Whomp says:
ok

We need to make SABER stronger. Three teams against two is much better odds.

We should contact Bernie (Whomper) and tell him so. Blame it on Bugs and he'll understand.

We need to make SABER stronger. Three teams against two is much better odds.

We should contact Bernie (Whomper) and tell him so. Blame it on Bugs and he'll understand.

I pushed for this long ago. I tired to sell the Babes on going 3v2 and then bending Sabre over but the Babes just don't want any part of propping them up.

I'll mention it again but I'll lay down $10 and 2:1 odds that it's not going to happen.

I need to think more about how things will evolve is the Babes can take for Sabre lands.

Oh, and I'll still blame it on Bugs. :p

dags seemed to be mad Mad Dags and Englishmen, wasn't that a Joe Cocker album :D
Seems like the clouds of confusion has been parted :goodjob:
I wasn't really mad either I'm just pickish about being fair in partnership to keep your allies. Obviously killers ideas wasn't about jerking the Babes legs, but a case of missing info.
Babes will never hook up with Sabre. I'm not sure why but they are dying to whack them pronto. I think that's where the knights come in play.
Side note: Chip in a buck or to on us too be big in saltpeter. We rely on Babes to send us a critical rescourse (horses), so probably we'll sit on another.

Heres the earlier log where I asked Whomp about what we were doing. I still dont know where they got we werent building GL, the only place I suppose is where he asked what we would build instead (dont want to tell them we have two prebuilds) and when I said it made no sense to research to Theology with TGL.

6/24/2007 11:35:25 AM casey j Whomp hey can we trade contacts in the MTDG (civ 3) with Mapmaking?
6/24/2007 11:35:39 AM casey j Whomp yeah its gonna be spend spend spend i told her
6/24/2007 11:35:40 AM Whomp casey j we can give you contacts yes
6/24/2007 11:36:05 AM casey j Whomp ah ok, so the only consideration is beating the other two to the Library
6/24/2007 11:36:22 AM casey j Whomp other 3 i guess
6/24/2007 11:36:38 AM Whomp casey j Saber hasn't returned a message on my offer
6/24/2007 11:36:56 AM Whomp casey j I don't think the other two are looking at Glib
6/24/2007 11:37:02 AM casey j Whomp i wouldnt think so
6/24/2007 11:37:15 AM Whomp casey j I think they're trying to get Leo's though
6/24/2007 11:37:26 AM casey j Whomp well the catch is this
6/24/2007 11:37:45 AM casey j Whomp if we build the library before they get Gunpowder, they wont trade across
6/24/2007 11:38:33 AM Whomp casey j don't they need to know where the salt is?
6/24/2007 11:38:45 AM casey j Whomp they could trade maps to the other team
6/24/2007 11:39:03 AM Whomp casey j true
6/24/2007 11:39:37 AM Whomp casey j i'm thinking they must have invention and should be closing in on powder don't you?
6/24/2007 11:39:53 AM Whomp casey j they've had ~10 turns in the MA's
6/24/2007 11:39:57 AM Whomp casey j or more
6/24/2007 11:40:33 AM casey j Whomp i sent a pm to Wotan saying something similar but you are more familiar with their timeline. they got Feud and Engineering free or they got the same tech for both? I think one is researching and the other is financing them
6/24/2007 11:40:48 AM Whomp casey j i agree
6/24/2007 11:41:05 AM Whomp casey j my guess is they got the same tech
6/24/2007 11:41:13 AM Whomp casey j or they'd be further ahead
6/24/2007 11:41:42 AM casey j Whomp they are on invention now then, or close to gunpowder. one is republic or they both are now?
6/24/2007 11:41:56 AM Whomp casey j hmm
6/24/2007 11:41:59 AM Whomp casey j i think both
6/24/2007 11:42:46 AM Whomp casey j Out of curiousity if you didn't do Glib what would you do?
6/24/2007 11:42:53 AM Whomp casey j you have FP
6/24/2007 11:42:53 AM casey j Whomp Leos
6/24/2007 11:42:56 AM Whomp casey j ok
6/24/2007 11:43:13 AM Whomp casey j through ToA?
6/24/2007 11:43:24 AM casey j Whomp no just with palace
6/24/2007 11:43:27 AM Whomp casey j k
6/24/2007 11:43:48 AM casey j Whomp you have a leos build as well? i asked that a while back i think
6/24/2007 11:43:55 AM Whomp casey j nope
6/24/2007 11:44:17 AM Whomp casey j I'm gathering steam on pounding Saber while they're down
6/24/2007 11:44:23 AM Whomp casey j between me and you
6/24/2007 11:44:33 AM Whomp casey j and they're way down
6/24/2007 11:45:11 AM casey j Whomp well thats good. wotan was saying we had agreed to do mono but i dont see the point if we build TGL
6/24/2007 11:46:18 AM Whomp casey j 3 techs would be the benefit and that assumes they don't continue along the lower half
6/24/2007 11:46:39 AM Whomp casey j I think we'd be able to get quite a tech lead if it's done
6/24/2007 11:46:47 AM Whomp casey j and denying Saber too
6/24/2007 11:47:18 AM casey j Whomp how since we cant tech past education?
6/24/2007 11:48:34 AM Whomp casey j chivalry and theo first
6/24/2007 11:49:06 AM casey j Whomp yes but why would we need those? MWs> knights and we have no horses
6/24/2007 11:49:28 AM Whomp casey j ahh
6/24/2007 11:49:54 AM Whomp casey j how soon would you need to switch?
6/24/2007 11:49:56 AM Whomp casey j 114?
6/24/2007 11:50:08 AM casey j Whomp switch what, governments?
6/24/2007 11:50:18 AM Whomp casey j no prebuilds
6/24/2007 11:50:36 AM casey j Whomp prebuilds to Leos or Great Libe?
6/24/2007 11:50:40 AM Whomp casey j yep
6/24/2007 11:51:57 AM casey j Whomp TGL is due in like 10 turns yeah
6/24/2007 11:52:39 AM casey j Whomp so that is enough time for the others to get gunpowder i think
6/24/2007 11:53:36 AM Whomp casey j one second holly's on the phone
6/24/2007 11:53:42 AM casey j Whomp no prob
6/24/2007 11:55:28 AM Whomp casey j back
6/24/2007 11:55:35 AM Whomp casey j OK so a few things
6/24/2007 11:55:55 AM Whomp casey j 1. is denying Saber and keeping them ancient
6/24/2007 11:56:10 AM Whomp casey j 2. eng., invention and powder
6/24/2007 11:56:20 AM Whomp casey j you could run cash at that point
6/24/2007 11:56:26 AM Whomp casey j and we could get chiv
6/24/2007 11:56:34 AM Whomp casey j then theo
6/24/2007 11:56:58 AM Whomp casey j if they keep rolling towards chem that could be possible
6/24/2007 11:57:20 AM Whomp casey j it still seems worth it to me
6/24/2007 11:57:25 AM casey j Whomp 1 is good and grand
6/24/2007 11:58:03 AM casey j Whomp but 2 would be hopefully get eng, invention and powder free, and then follow them to MT dont you think?
6/24/2007 11:58:09 AM casey j Whomp we finance you that way?
6/24/2007 11:58:36 AM Whomp casey j if they continue on that path it would be huge
6/24/2007 11:59:27 AM Whomp casey j it wouldn't be long before we'd have astro and MT
6/24/2007 11:59:28 AM casey j Whomp if they dont we will just get mono->edu free, and hedge our bets by researching up to MT
6/24/2007 12:00:23 PM Whomp casey j another reason we have to deny Saber is if they get MT look out
6/24/2007 12:00:23 PM casey j Whomp now conversely if we researched full blast to astro, the libe is useless, but we would have a short term advantage to exploit
6/24/2007 12:01:05 PM Whomp casey j i'm surprised they didn't split research already
6/24/2007 12:02:01 PM Whomp casey j the other benefit of getting astro is trading resources which i think will be sparse
6/24/2007 12:02:18 PM casey j Whomp yeah we will need ocean travel for that though
6/24/2007 12:03:19 PM casey j Whomp oh gotta run, we have the save, i will try to be back on later. do you guys really really really want us to do mono or do you just want to wait?
6/24/2007 12:03:24 PM Whomp casey j ok
6/24/2007 12:03:31 PM Whomp casey j i think it makes sense
6/24/2007 12:03:52 PM Whomp casey j if they're going lower half it plays into our hands

And here is a sidebar with JB in the second conversation.
6/24/2007 6:30:43 PM Casey jb1964 sorry i think i got it fixed now, had to upgrade to the new messenger
6/24/2007 6:31:21 PM jb1964 Casey I've been getting disconnected on a rather regular basis also, but seem to be stable at the moment
6/24/2007 6:31:35 PM Casey jb1964 there was some confusion
6/24/2007 6:31:59 PM jb1964 Casey So is Mono in 5 a possibility or are we now looking at 6?
6/24/2007 6:32:15 PM Casey jb1964 with whomp since i had to go and the last thing i alluded to was a run to astro but said that made no sense since we are building the GLibrary
6/24/2007 6:32:25 PM Casey jb1964 i think that is where they got we arent building the library
6/24/2007 6:32:49 PM jb1964 Casey But we are buliding the Lib aren't we?
6/24/2007 6:32:57 PM Casey jb1964 damn straight, twice over
6/24/2007 6:33:03 PM jb1964 Casey hahaha
6/24/2007 6:33:14 PM Casey jb1964 both now show it in 7 turns
6/24/2007 6:33:19 PM Casey jb1964 well 6 now
6/24/2007 6:33:56 PM jb1964 Casey But Mono is in 5 or 6?
6/24/2007 6:37:37 PM Casey jb1964 mono is in 5 if we want, maybe 4
6/24/2007 6:37:54 PM Casey jb1964 depends on how many scientists we want to run and how it fits with their time table
6/24/2007 6:38:36 PM jb1964 Casey Very kewl to have that flexibility
6/24/2007 6:38:41 PM jb1964 Casey very kewl
6/24/2007 6:59:06 PM Casey jb1964 we can have mono in 4 turns
6/24/2007 6:59:09 PM Casey jb1964 i just checked
6/24/2007 6:59:59 PM jb1964 Casey But if they're not going to get Feud until 5 then we can match that pace
6/24/2007 7:01:17 PM Casey jb1964 well that is 4 turns from the turn i just played, so 4 turner straight up, means we could have it on turn 108, but i think they need it on turn 109
6/24/2007 7:03:04 PM jb1964 Casey Then we go at that pace and ship it thier way and score some brownie points.
6/24/2007 7:05:47 PM jb1964 Casey Hey, does Feudalism have war werriness problems?
6/24/2007 7:05:56 PM Casey jb1964 yep
6/24/2007 7:06:23 PM jb1964 Casey Wow, big army, just don't use it too much
6/24/2007 7:06:55 PM Casey jb1964 heh yeah
6/24/2007 7:08:18 PM jb1964 Casey OK, so we ask for Feud 'cause we need to take advantage of the benefits it offer. Switching governments isn't a big deal for us. So we pop rush and then switch out if we get into some combat.
6/24/2007 7:09:17 PM Casey jb1964 yep
6/24/2007 7:09:53 PM jb1964 Casey We just don't say, we need Feud so we can pop rush temples and libs for our 100k run
6/24/2007 7:11:29 PM Casey jb1964 yep
6/24/2007 7:11:51 PM Casey jb1964 i think we can get all the libes and temples rushed by 1 AD, and some cathedrals too
6/24/2007 7:12:09 PM Casey jb1964 boy BABE will be pissed if they notice, thats why i didnt mean to rock the boat and have them up in arms
6/24/2007 7:13:36 PM jb1964 Casey you there?
6/24/2007 7:13:42 PM Casey jb1964 yeah
6/24/2007 7:13:52 PM jb1964 Casey iok, got booted from the other converstaion
6/24/2007 7:13:59 PM jb1964 Casey hey, I need to bug out
6/24/2007 7:14:09 PM Casey jb1964 no problem
6/24/2007 7:14:26 PM jb1964 Casey good conversation, welcome back, congrats, etc...
6/24/2007 7:15:13 PM Casey jb1964 thanks man
6/24/2007 7:15:22 PM Casey jb1964 well i dont want to keep you, ill post the whomp chat

Babes will be annoyed when the cult bomb goes Ka-Boom, therefore it would be grand to have a written treaty before that happens. Prefably one that ties 'em to us way into the IA's. Long term peace a la mano-a-mano is prio 1 IMIO.

Babes will be annoyed when the cult bomb goes Ka-Boom, therefore it would be grand to have a written treaty before that happens. Prefably one that ties 'em to us way into the IA's. Long term peace a la mano-a-mano is prio 1 IMIO.

Agreed - the cult bomb will be obvious when we either
do a rush build of libs and cats beyond what would be normal infrastructure
build the ToA
let someone see our ICS spacing.

Can they tell our number of cities from CAII or other means because that might be giving a clue anyway.

our research speed is probably helped by our ICS style allowing us to use scientists well if we need to.

This is a first attempt to a written treaty w Babes. Please read through and comment. Corrections on bad grammar/syntax are welcomed if spotted.

THE GONG BABES TREATY

Military:
-Teams Gong and Babes will live in peace and not take any miltary action towards each other, nor will they in any other way support a third party in conflict with the other part in this treaty.
-Entering each others territory is prohibited unless the other part accepts the visit. Visitors are required to announce type and number of units before entering.

Techs:
-Teams Gong and Babes will collaborate in research of new technologies. No third team is to be part of this collaboration unless teams Gong and Babes both agree on that.
-Negotiations on details will take place whenever the situation calls for it. If teams cannot agree in negotiations, the tech part of the treaty may be nullified in all, alternatively put on hold until an agreement can be reached.

Rescourses:
-When possible, teams Gong and Babes will share rescourses needed for optimal development of our civs. No luxury/rescourse is to be denied the other part as long as an agreed payment for it can be carried out.
-Trading luxes/rescourses with third party is only allowed if both teams agree.

This treaty is valid from the date that both teams have sealed it.
It will last until both teams are the last ones standing.
This treaty can otherwise only be canceled if (1) both teams agree on doing so, or (2) if one side delibriatly violates it.

our research speed is probably helped by our ICS style allowing us to use scientists well if we need to.

If the ICS spacing is noted then it's to help prevent landings w/ a settler for a beachhead and it's for greater science. It is not for 100k!

We'll only be able to get away w/ that for a short time.

This is a first attempt to a written treaty w Babes. Please read through and comment. Corrections on bad grammar/syntax are welcomed if spotted.



Looks good - need to flavour it up a bit at least with some sub headings

THE GONG BABES TREATY

Rules of the House

Military:

No Fighting
-Teams Gong and Babes will live in peace and not take any miltary action towards each other, nor will they in any other way support a third party in conflict with the other part in this treaty.

No Gatecrashing
-Entering each others territory is prohibited unless the other part accepts the visit. Visitors are required to announce type and number of units before entering.

Techs:


Spead the gossip
-Teams Gong and Babes will collaborate in research of new technologies. No third team is to be part of this collaboration unless teams Gong and Babes both agree on that.

There's a tab set up behind the bar

-Negotiations on details will take place whenever the situation calls for it. If teams cannot agree in negotiations, the tech part of the treaty may be nullified in all, alternatively put on hold until an agreement can be reached.

Rescourses:

Share and share alike
-When possible, teams Gong and Babes will share rescourses needed for optimal development of our civs. No luxury/rescourse is to be denied the other part as long as an agreed payment for it can be carried out.
-Trading luxes/rescourses with third party is only allowed if both teams agree.

Duration:

Lock in lasts till dawn

This treaty is valid from the date that both teams have sealed it.
It will last until both teams are the last ones standing.
This treaty can otherwise only be canceled if (1) both teams agree on doing so, or (2) if one side delibriatly violates it.

Eeeeexcellent *rubbing hands*. Is there anything in this that will make it harder to get a 100K? Anything that makes only slight sense? Outright :crazyeye: ? It is very big pic style, but then again details can't be decided long term. The way I see it we are on home base w/ theology. Then we can get zonked in splendid isolation "just" guarding our shores and :dance: in our temples. It would be good though to hide that from Babes and agree on research colaboration past Theology.
Agreeing on a treaty can be a time consuming process and this is just a start so please chip in whatever you're opinion so we can nail 'em before they discover our strategy. According to 'cane it's not long before the cult cracker goes pop and Babes will reconsider.

The treaty really is perfect.

Locks in the peace and resource sharing.

Agree to tech swapping and work out the details as we go.

Form is not critical and this certainly functions. Make it pretty in whatever manner suits and ship it over to the Babes.

Oh, and if the Babes want to visit our island they must be accompanied by Charlise.

Treaty looks good, didnt we originally have something like 100 turn peace? Whatever turn that is could be added, thats the only thing I can think of.

Treaty looks good, didnt we originally have something like 100 turn peace? Whatever turn that is could be added, thats the only thing I can think of.

I think as we tried to craft our original treaty, which didn't make it onto parchment, we agreed upon 80 turns. We could reference that if you want as being superceeded by this agreement.

Oh this treaty will last for all time and they already agreed to it or we are doing negotiations?

Oh this treaty will last for all time and they already agreed to it or we are doing negotiations?

No negotiations. All time is what we want. Just giving feedback on history in case Daghie wanted to reference the former agreement. No biggie.

I received a pm from Whomp that they would be finished with Feudalism on turn 110. So that gives us yet another turn.

The

i forgot to post that in the turnplay thread
Whomp says:
i got a message from saber
Whomp says:
they want to know how much cash we want
Whomp says:
haha
jb1964 says:
cute
Whomp says:
but didn't mention building it
Whomp says:
they said you realize all the techs are cheaper
jb1964 says:
ah yes, the GLib ploy
Whomp says:
well no duh
Whomp says:
right
jb1964 says:
we'll keep playing with them and see what comes of it
Whomp says:
they're easy 40 turns behind in research

They're going to keep an eye on Sabre's techs and give fair warning if they suddenly get GLib.

I would like for the Babes to be paying a personal visit to Sabre next turn, however, they will, at bext arrive at Sabre island one turn before we finish the GLib.

Draft has been mailed to Babes, RF's twist 'n all Here It Is (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=5601172&postcount=112). Hopefully we'll have it sealed before we get Feudie and start the cultural war.

Could you diplomats find out from BABEs what the relative strengths of the armies are for each of the others and what they historically have been since they have met? There is one civ that has a 5th rated military service record, and I think we can learn a lot about the others intentions by identifying who that is.

We are 4th in military strength (Per war academy article: Military Service: 10 years * # of military units / # of citizens. Military units are units with an attack and defense value, so workers, scouts and princesses don't count. Kings do. So at the start of a mass regicide game you will have a military service of 70 years because of the 7 military units *10 years divided by just your 1 citizen. 0 years if you have no army or you have just a few units, but thousands of population points.).

We are #1 in population and only have 18 warriors and a few ships, so it would stand that we should be last in military strength. At the start of the golden age we were 5th in military service (post by JB on like page 5 of Dept. of Turnplay) so that should serve as a jumping off point. BABES should be strong against most civs, but hopefully there is one that they are average to. I would especially like to know if they are average to FREE, who would be points leader and most likely to be last due to high pop. If they are last then I dont think we would face a military invasion anytime soon (the galley-knight thing); if not, then the last place team has to be Saber or Council which would bode well for BABEs in a military advance and mean those two or one are building up their pop base while doing military. Its still kinda guesswork but does that make sense?

Pm to Whomp:

Hi Whompie, I was wondering if you guys would be willing to share some info about the relative strenght of our mutual opponents and how that has developed since you met them? Living on the dark side of the Meleet makes it hard to plan future military actions and you could maybe enlighten us a bit.

All Best
//N


...and the answer
Hi Whompie, I was wondering if you guys would be willing to share some info about the relative strenght of our mutual opponents and how that has developed since you met them? Living on the dark side of the Meleet makes it hard to plan future military actions and you could maybe enlighten us a bit.

All Best
//N
Hi Daghie Boy,
I'm not sure how much this will help but we're strong compared to everyone.

We received your agreement and one thing I mentioned is coordinating tech speeds. One thing I remember happening last game is it didn't seem like we were able to coordinate exact times for finishes. Maybe we should stipulate something where we announce our speed to finish so each team can adjust speeds accordingly. I'd prefer we do this on the honor system but what do you think?
W
Salute and such, the mechanics of coordination is of course hard to put to print but nevertheless important. I think maybe that has to be discussed/negotiated in bits and pieces within the general agreement of cooperation? Didn't we consider some sort of agreement where the team lagging in delivery had to pay a ticket for each turn late? We're open for any suggestions on this but, as you, I'd prefer not to tangle up too much in details that has to be altered anyway when the context shifts, making it hard to live up to the treaty even with the best will in the world. Announcing ETA of techs should be be done in advance and as accurately as possible, that could maybe be stated in the treaty?
Regarding the relative strength, we have observed some shifts on F11 that made us curious. I take it you've been strong vs others since first meeting them, and still are.
Looking fwd to your re-working of the draft.

Best
//N

Quote:
Originally Posted by killercane
Sorry about the save I just assumed it was gonna be there! 2 things real quick: 1) Just to confirm delivery of Mono, you need it on your 110 or 111? and 2) What is the word on our treaty and were there still some sticking points? How goes things with the Sabre invasion?

KC

From Whomp:
Oops. Forgot to send it back. I'll bump it tonight.

If you can get mono on 110 that would be great. Saber is asking how much we want for techs from Glib so I sent it back saying we're conflicted on how much considering it would be equivalent to 40 turns if they had to research.


From Wotan
No prob, the culprits are FREE. They seem to have some serious issues lately with sloppy turn handling.

We need Mono when we open the save on turn 110. So you need to gift it to us on turn 109.

Saber is a bit tricky. Not only do we need to produce a good pile of units, they also need to be shipped to SABER so it is still some time before we can seriously do any harm to them.

On SABER please be advised they are still down a lot of techs, none added to their known techs for ages. that would suggest they to go for GLib. They have also joined workers at an alarming rate to the coastal town south of the starting position. It is now size 12, that cost a lot of happiness so they pay a lot of gold to keep it running at that size. Still lacking Literacy but that can change rapidly with a quick switch from Palace pre build to finish the GLib. When is the GLib due at your end? Any chance of boosting that build through worker joining? Or is the town already at size 12?

Wotan

Any chance of boosting that build through worker joining? Or is the town already at size 12?

Ehhhh....., oh right: :sheep: :rotfl: :shake: :pat:

We can do a couple of things RE: GL. Sugar Mountain is at 326 shields next turn, and should produce 20+ after golden age @ size 10, 20 sh. next turn, 2 workers addable, but two hills not mined yet to use them. 9 workers cant begin work on the second hill until turn 3 from now. So probably 5 more turns including next one. This city will be much faster to Leos/Sun Tsus if we want to risk a 1 turn delay.

DSOTM will make 18 shields/turn and is already at size 12. It has 319 in the box IIRC. I dont think we can get it to 20 spt since it will starve. So there is probably a 1 turn difference there. Which place should we put it? It would be nice to run WLTKD again, but our Mono research wont be on time; BABEs cant have it both ways!

If we came back to the Babes and asked, "Mono on time and GL one turn later, or GL one turn earlier and Mono delayed one turn" I'm willing to bet they would elect to get the GL one turn earlier.

I PM'ed Whomper and asked how the treaty was looking in the Babe congress. We shall see.

BTW, in our treaty I doubt we've covered the topic of land division. We don't really care to extend our empire but it would seem logical that everyone else does if Conquest/Domination is the victory of choice.

If the Babes bring up the topic of land division what should be our response? Since holding lands on distant shores would be very difficult there's obvious pro's and con's for trying to keep gains.

The first and most likely scenario is for the Babes to visit Sabre. We would really not play a direct part in that and therefore it would be up to the Babes as to what to do with those spoils and how to maintain/defend them.

I'm rambling so I'll stop there.... Just food for thought.

If they bring division up we'll pretend to bother a day, then we'll say "no part should have more than 50% until the other are all gone, then it's up for grabs".

A conversation w/ Whomper where he tells me that the Babes settled the one tile jungle island off of the Sabre coast! I'm totally amused.

Whomp says:
and i'm not sure i want them having sipaphis
jb1964 says:
what resources do those require?
Whomp says:
horses and salt
jb1964 says:
well, horses and iron are split up....
jb1964 says:
probably a 50% chance they're deprived of one of those resources
Whomp says:
well we settled their 1 tile island :lol: :lol: :lol:
jb1964 says:
you bastard
Whomp says:
i know
jb1964 says:
dude, seriously....
jb1964 says:
I would be so damn pissed
Whomp says:
lol
jb1964 says:
hahahaha
jb1964 says:
I'm totally lmao
jb1964 says:
When, if I might ask, did you do that?
Whomp says:
it was a long time ago
jb1964 says:
OK....
jb1964 says:
Thanks for not visiting the same upon the poor gongers
Whomp says:
however it was an aggressive placement you could say
jb1964 says:
ya think?
Whomp says:
it's already feeling culture pressure
jb1964 says:
Are they pumping up culture?
Whomp says:
they can't
Whomp says:
don't have to tech

If the map is true to the game then that tile could have been home to what resource other than Rubber?

The Babes are going to consider investigating Sabre's wonder city(s), that they know of, and I've offered to split the cost w/ them.

In conjunction with that Whomp was considering some ploy to make Sabre feel as if they've committed some major breach of faith if they're found to be building the GLib. But if they're going to beat us to it then there's nothing that could be done to stop them.

I'd love to have Babes peek into that lil village of theirs. I wonder what have made them pick up the speed by joining workers? Newly accuired luxes? Panic?

That is a good investment. Ask Whomper to do it.

PM to Whomp and Wotan....

Hey guys, we'll be glad to help w/ the bill to investigate the Sabre city.

It was another turn w/o any notification that the GLib was gone so that's good. We have 4 turns of building left. It will pop on turn 112.

Prior to the GLib coming in the Gong Gang would like to settle on the treaty.

On the treaty, we didn't specify what to do w/ the load of techs we'll get from GLib. We've sent Babes Construction and they have sent us a bunch. Should we share the whole darn bunch (Eng/Ino/Guns/?) or get some payment? I guess some poor b-tard will have to count beaker cost here....

Oh, bopsie daisy, time flies. Gotta go guys.

On the treaty, we didn't specify what to do w/ the load of techs we'll get from GLib. We've sent Babes Construction and they have sent us a bunch. Should we share the whole darn bunch (Eng/Ino/Guns/?) or get some payment? I guess some poor b-tard will have to count beaker cost here....

Oh, bopsie daisy, time flies. Gotta go guys.

Ya, Whomper and I were pretty confidant that with these two teams we could come up w/ a fair solution whether it be shared techs, gold, or any combination of the two.

PM's and responses from Whomp and Wotan.

How would Whomp's suggested tech delivery penalty affect us if we decided we had evolved as far was we needed? Frankly, I think we're going to need to keep up the tech pace w/ the Babes through Astro and Steam. But that's just my opinion.


I got denied on the investigation thing. Everyone felt it's either done or it's not since it wouldn't change anything.

I'll get the treaty done. I forgot to mention it. :blush: Would you be adverse to a discussing a gpt penalty for each turn over what's discussed for research? 20gpt or something to keep everyone honest?

I understand about the investigation. We were just looking for some instant gratification. Besides, my hypothesis is that that's not their GLib city.

Put the penalty into writing and send it back. I'll grease the skids over here to start debate.


No Lit yet for SABER. We get Feudalism next turn as planned, do you want it right away or continue building GS? Maybe if SABER beat you to the GLib you need it for a cascade to SunTzus?
We have 15 or so pairs of fingers crossed nere you do win this race and are able to wait for Feudalism until a later date.

Hold Feud until requested.

Dont we want Feudalism right away? Lets get the treaty signed asap. Whomp might be stalling. The investigation would help us a lot to see if we can put GL in DSOTM a turn or two later. Can we offer to pay for that totally (the investigation)?

Babes stalling on the treaty? Yes, maybe. If so, what's their gain? The penalty will be an issue when we discuss ETA for techs we research. We might say
"Yup, we'll do Chemistry. It'll take 15 turns"
"No Way! At 100% that should take 6 at the most"
"Correct, but we're in no hurry so we go 30%"
"But you have to go 100%"
"Nothing in treaty says 100%. Just that we pay 20gpt for each turn
more than 15"
"We connot accept that"
"Oh well, then the tech part is on hold. Bye then"
My point is we can choose research pace as we wish even w/ a fine, as long as we honestly state our ETA.

From my warmongering and cheeky part of the brain it could be they might be stalling everything because the minute we get the GLib a fleet of galleys of MW-babes arrive at our coast. With Pyramids and GLib and almost no military we are a juicy target.
Not very likely, but that would come to my mind why they could be delaying the treaty. Just a thought.

From my warmongering and cheeky part of the brain it could be they might be stalling everything because the minute we get the GLib a fleet of galleys of MW-babes arrive at our coast. With Pyramids and GLib and almost no military we are a juicy target.
Not very likely, but that would come to my mind why they could be delaying the treaty. Just a thought.

I would raze both cities and gift every tech we have to Sabre before I would let them benefit from either wonder.

From my warmongering and cheeky part of the brain it could be they might be stalling everything because the minute we get the GLib a fleet of galleys of MW-babes arrive at our coast. With Pyramids and GLib and almost no military we are a juicy target.
Not very likely, but that would come to my mind why they could be delaying the treaty. Just a thought.
Very clever indeed. That would make it possible to whack us w/o violating anything. The more I think of it, the more likely it sounds. It's been a week since I mailed the draft and we haven't gotten any response besides "Sorry, we're looking into it". It's time to demand a written reply. If we don't get one within, say 24hrs, we will take that as a "no thanks" and act accordingly. We might have been blinded by the "Us against the rest"-thing. We have no horsies and Babes will get Mono before they sends us Feud. They will deny us Feud and get Knights and hit us before we have time to build up. The Sabre war is just smoke and will happen after they have steamrolled us. Having us build the GLib for them, and denying their next sitting duck, is excellent strategy.
I will write a mail to Babes asap :scan:

If you tell them we're pulling our MP's to cover the open coast to prevent Babe landings and that both research and prodcution will suffer accordingly you should get a quick reply.

I have not been looking at the builds but I hope we've been making some warriors.

Hey Cane, have the Babes been sailing ships close enough to our shores to keep an eye on openings?

OK, this goes to Babes mailbox:

Hi there Babes
Some of us Gongers are beginning to make up stories about your apperently vague interest in inking a deal with us. Some even say there is a hidden agenda behind that, an agenda that in no way plays in Gongers favour. Very much not so, some say. In fact we're about to send a lot of Gongers to the south coast just look out over the ocean to see if you've fallen asleep. This is not good because they would be of better use as MP's (The Beer Pyramid effect. People are zonked y'know).
To put an end to thees fantasies we require a written response to our suggested treaty. You've had 1 week to put something together and have produced zip and nothing besides "Ooops, sorry". The quality of team Babes players is far beyond that.
From our point of view, the treaty must be signed and sealed by both teams before further trading take place (first stop Mono for Feud) or we will concider your silence a "No Thanks" from Babes.

Best
Daghie, Behind the Beer Kit

I would raze both cities and gift every tech we have to Sabre before I would let them benefit from either wonder.

Of course, but that would take the fun out of our show. It would be too cool if we can pull off the 100k. :D

I'm thinking we should start sending scouting boats and definitely put a sentry in the water btw us and Babes.

OK guys... Knowing that Daghie was sending a note to the Babes I took advantage of the situation and used it as an opportunity to figuratively put my arm around our pals and tell them that we needed action, RIGHT NOW! :mad:

Daghdha, your note the them was perfect and we got the response we were looking for.

Here's what I sent and received...


Hello gentlemen. The fact that treaty amendment and/or ratification appears to be dragging out is starting to bring the more paranoid amongst us to the surface.

To counter a real or imagined threat will slow down everything. Popping more units to cover all gaps will add to our overhead, which in turn will slow research.

I know it sounds silly but that’s the situation that’s begun to take root over the past couple of days.

Daghie posted that he would send you a note. I’m not posting any info to team Gong on this PM so that you might be more confidant that what I’m saying here is in fact becoming a problem. I’m curious as to how Daghie’s post will read.

jb
Whomp's response...

I asked for someone to add 20gpt and our seal. It should be to you today.

Without a research partner the Babes are going to get clubbed like baby seals and they have no interest in playing nice w/ Sabre (this is not confirmed but seems correct). The FC axis has no need for the Babes unless they are all part of the 3 and we are part of the 2, or more corectly, 1 + 1. A Babe plan to take us and then Sabre before the FC axis could respond does sound sexy but it would spell doom for the Babes. That is, unless they were going to hold the outlying islands as a diversion while turning the homeland into a cultural monster.

Even though I personally think a Babe invasion is not in the cards for us I think momentum towards shore protection is completely in order.

Alright, nice move, quick response. Let's see about "today".

A conversation w/ Whomper where he tells me that the Babes settled the one tile jungle island off of the Sabre coast! I'm totally amused.

If the map is true to the game then that tile could have been home to what resource other than Rubber?

Could be coal don't forget!

Just got this from Whomper....

We have a treaty....

Here's the treaty. I don't have email access so pm was best.
I put noparse so you could post it.

[noparse]THE GONG BABES TREATY

Rules of the House

Military:

No Fighting
-Teams Gong and Babes will live in peace and not take any miltary action towards each other, nor will they in any other way support a third party in conflict with the other part in this treaty.

No Gatecrashing
-Entering each others territory is prohibited unless the other part accepts the visit. Visitors are required to announce type and number of units before entering.

Techs:


Spead the gossip
-Teams Gong and Babes will collaborate in research of new technologies. No third team is to be part of this collaboration unless teams Gong and Babes both agree on that. There will be a discussion regarding tech speed going into each tech. Any delay per the discussion will equal to lump sum 20g per turn of delay.

There's a tab set up behind the bar

-Negotiations on details will take place whenever the situation calls for it. If teams cannot agree in negotiations, the tech part of the treaty may be nullified in all, alternatively put on hold until an agreement can be reached.

Rescourses:

Share and share alike
-When possible, teams Gong and Babes will share rescourses needed for optimal development of our civs. No luxury/rescourse is to be denied the other part as long as an agreed payment for it can be carried out.
-Trading luxes/rescourses with third party is only allowed if both teams agree.

Duration:

Lock in lasts till dawn

This treaty is valid from the date that both teams have sealed it.
It will last until both teams are the last ones standing.
This treaty can otherwise only be canceled if (1) both teams agree on doing so, or (2) if one side delibriatly violates it.
The Babes and our stamp of approval.

[noparse]

My response to Whomp and the Babes....

Heya Whomp.....

The 20gpt penalty was already talked over and agreed to in the Gong camp so consider this a sealed deal.

Nice doing business w/ you.

BTW, the GLib is still out there and we're now 3 turns away. We should assume that we're going to bag this thing and start planning near term events.

Beer Regards,

jb

Wotan pm'ed me to say Saber still lacks Lit. I suggested Saber might approach the Dirtbags to form a 3/2 if/when our GLib pop-up appears and that we have 3 turns left.

Here's my reply to Whomper. When would we like contact? At this point Saber and the FC-Axis will know we have the GLib so whether or not they stop trading is already a done deal.

Thoughts?


Expect a most obnoxious post from Daghie w/ a graphic of the Gong Library.

It's finally complete. Please provide what update you can on the technological accomlishments of the FC Axis. My assumption is that once they have Mono that that's a good sign that the lower tier is complete.

However, once the find that we have the Lib they'll likely stop trading techs for as long as they can hold out.

I'm looking forward to discussing the next moves...
1) Timing on trading contacts
2) Settling up our tech/gold account
3) To wait, or not, on researching to Education and on to Astro...
4) Order of battle and what we can do to help in the pre-Astro time period..
Awe.SOME! This game has just turned in Gong/Babe favor.
When do you want contact? I don't see any reason to delay since Free/Council can't stop research on something and start on another.

I think it's best to wait and see what techs pop up and determine when it's best to start towards astro.
In the meantime, keep collecting cash and rush/short rush to build the science and commerce juggernaut.

We should get online this weekend because now the fun begins.

Heya Whomp,

The call for contact is past my paygrade so I'll cc: the senior members of the staff and post in the Diplo thread.

Nobody has responded to Daghie's posting thus far so I'm thinking they haven't figured it out or they're pissed.

I'll be around this weekend so we'll talk.

We should build up military. The moment we push culture it will become obvious to the Babes that we will go for 100k. No other team than the Babes will be able to stop us, so they will discuss whether breaking the contract is an option. If I were them I would seriously consider to break the treaty as otherwise the whole game is lost for all other teams. We cannot be that naive. :rolleyes:

Mark is correct. Even if they are just warriors to stand on the shoreline.

our leverage over the Babes is the techs we will collect. As long as they are still in need of those they cannot attack. The moment the do techs and the lib would go up in smoke.

That would leave the Babes behind in techs to the FC axis and forced to try and make nice w/ Saber. From all that I've been able to gather there is no interest on the Babes part to prop up, or align w/ Saber at all.

I agree we need the military but we still hold the keys as far as the Babes are concerned.

I agree with that. They depend on us for some time. I am just saying we should get prepared. :) The time will come when the world will pay us a visit.

When we get the GongLib techs, how should we share them w/ Babes. I've kept no score, but my guess is we owe them some from AA's so some should then be freebies. Can anyone do the basic math to figure out how far our generosity ought to reach?

The big question is the contacts. When do we want them? I think sooner rather than later because now that they know we have the Lib having, or not having contact isn't going to change their behavior.

So here's a somewhat uneducated vote for having the Babes send the contacts next turn.

I think sure lets have the contacts, but maybe in like 5 turns. It will make Mono cheaper for the others, but they will probably shoot towards Education. So we can get that, have all the culture done, work on select unis since they are so expensive, and build military (not necessarily in that order). Contacts will show our population count to the others though; this will be lower after we whip stuff, and may prevent an invasion with Astro.

Im kind of thinking we should continue to stay in Feudalism, but later Republic will come in handy with Navigation and ocean trade. 4 mps and cathedrals should allow us to run 0 lux. We would need some lux in Republic not to mention unit costs. But I really dont know. We need some 50 units to coastal block most squares to direct a landing to where we want it, then at least another 50 units to be able to destroy invaders.

With say 10 cities in Republic, and 40 towns we can support maybe 90 units (cities 3 support, towns 1.5). 10 workers +10 units is a bit of gold to pay. 1 starting content+temple+cathedral+Sistines+2 luxs= 10 content, is that enough to keep everyone happy with no lux slider? We can trade 2 luxes from BABEs with Navigation for everyone happy but if we whip stuff we will still have some unhappy and require markets.

The problem dealing w/ Babes is the juggernaut of science and commerce that they wanna build. Our juggernaut is a cult one and we already have what we need for it (almost). That said, we should be able to come up with some sort of understanding

Taking Daghdha's note here under advisement, I'm trying to understand how we work w/ the Babes from this point forward.

There was a consensus, chatter at least, that we would take a modified isolationist stance but do what we can to encourage war.

The assumption is that Free and Councel have a most wonderful relationship that's mutually bent on world domination.

Over here we have the Babes apparently bent on military conquest and their #1 military supports that. We, however, are currently not much of a military conquest partner at the moment.

Since the Babes, and the rest of the world will come to see us as a cultural threat I would like to come to some sort of understanding w/ the Babes that we go for the Culture win, they go for domination, and we do this in some sort of bizzare, equitable manner.

If anyone has an idea as to how to accomplish that let me know.

I think sure lets have the contacts, but maybe in like 5 turns. It will make Mono cheaper for the others, but they will probably shoot towards Education.

Free already has Mono. Has had it for two turns at a minimum and has not shared it w/ Counsel. If they're going to stop tech trading until we get Education then they've already done it.

I would like to know sooner, rather than later, what the tech payout is going to be in addition to denying the GLib to Saber.

If the FC Axis has kept all the lower tier techs in one camp anticipating somebody getting the GLib then all I can do is tip my hat and mumble obscenities under my breath.

I don't think they have that big a tech lead.

Conversation w/ Whomp.
I told him to send the contacts but I know there's differing opinions on that so we can always hold that off.

Whomp says:
sup dere kid
jb1964 says:
heya, just typing in the gong thread
Whomp says:
i sent a funny message to saber
jb1964 says:
funny? that's probably in the eye of the beholder
Whomp says:
Dear Saber,
We are willing to adjust the price per tech. We need to understand what Council is offering and we'll lower our price. However, if you are building Glib we need to know immediately since we'd find that a serious breach in our relationship. We can adjust our build to Leo's (potentially) or Hanging Gardens (to start our GA). Please let us know your intentions so we can plan accordingly.
Whomp says:
keeping them on their toes hehe
Whomp says:
everyone says i'm evil...
Whomp says:
actually that's the last one
jb1964 says:
Yes, you are evil, but in a nice way'
Whomp says:
Hi Dutchfire,

We haven't heard from you lately so I thought we thought we'd try you at this address. It seems we lost out on our bid for the Glib and were caught by surprise since we thought you were building it too. We're talking to Gong about selling our contacts for techs to help keep pace.

We thought it might be an interesting proposal to gift you up and have you research (and your free IA) while we run cash so we can rush buildings for the rush into the IA.

Just thought we'd throw it out there and see if you'd be interested in some type of deal.

Regards,
The Babes
Whomp says:
:E
jb1964 says:
sweet
Whomp says:
we'll see if they respond
jb1964 says:
OK, where do we go from here?
Whomp says:
i think we should give contact
Whomp says:
i'm not sure what the downside is
jb1964 says:
If we get contact w/ the others does it make Mono less expensive for them or does the cost drop even w/o the contacts
Whomp says:
it does make mono less valuable
jb1964 says:
OK, we're somewhat landlocked until Astro... but you are not...
jb1964 says:
I think it comes down to when you need the lower tier techs...
Whomp says:
Right so we can either wait till we finish chiv
Whomp says:
knowing salt would be huge
jb1964 says:
You're about 5 turns from Chiv, correct
Whomp says:
and if they're going MT they may not stop
jb1964 says:
We'll, if the GLib is going to deter them from researching then there's nothing we can do to change that.
Whomp says:
they can't stop researching
Whomp says:
or else it forces the other team to research if they've been saving cash
Whomp says:
if they've researched to chem we're in really good shape
jb1964 says:
Do either of the Axis have Mono?
Whomp says:
i don't think so but let me look at the thread
Whomp says:
or save might be better
jb1964 says:
sorry, missed the disconnect
Whomp says:
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Whomp says:
hehe
Whomp says:
i'm opening the save
Whomp says:
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Whomp says:
interesting
Whomp says:
free has it and council does not
Whomp says:
so it doesn't matter if we give contact
Whomp says:
saber is down construction, myst, HBR, MM, lit and poly
Whomp says:
hehe
jb1964 says:
If Free has it then I would take that as a sign that the lower teir is done
jb1964 says:
I'll make a snap Gong call here and tell you to send the contacts....
Whomp says:
only one of them could research
Whomp says:
the lower
Whomp says:
so council may have researched and shared cash
jb1964 says:
Why would they not do that together?
Whomp says:
can't
jb1964 says:
I'm not following
Whomp says:
it's invention, powder, chem, metal, MT
Whomp says:
it's a straight line no offshoots
jb1964 says:
I figured they would go along together alternately researching.... sharing as they go
Whomp says:
you need mono, educ, physics to open up the path
Whomp says:
astro then physics
jb1964 says:
You don't ned mono to get to MT
Whomp says:
nope
Whomp says:
it's a straight line after engineering and feud
jb1964 says:
Right, however, we here are expecting to get a nice return on the investment in the GLib.... In the form of techs from the Axis....
Whomp says:
i'm sure we will
jb1964 says:
If I'm beind dense please point it out
Whomp says:
engineering, invention, gunpowder and possibly chem, metal and maybe even MT
Whomp says:
doubt they've gone that far
jb1964 says:
OK, nevermind, I'm obviously mis-reading an earlier post...
Whomp says:
and we're giving chiv which they won't have which tells me they went straight to MT
jb1964 says:
Well, I'm sure we'll sit on our butts in our Library until we get a payout....
jb1964 says:
Then start making runs at the next key techs, etc...
Whomp says:
yep turn off research and wait
jb1964 says:
back
Whomp says:
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Whomp says:
my question is whether we should start on theo in earnest or wait
jb1964 says:
I take it that Free has Mono but not Theo...
Whomp says:
i presume they just got it cuz council doesn't have it
jb1964 says:
OK...
Whomp says:
want me to look at a previous save?
jb1964 says:
BTW, how concerned are you that the Axis will find any utility in bringing in Saber to try and make things 3v2?
Whomp says:
not sure that's why i'm trying to keep saber in the loop
jb1964 says:
Lookint at the earier save could confirm so ya, please do that
jb1964 says:
OK, good job on toying w/ Saber BWT
Whomp says:
i think we're going to hit them
Whomp says:
shhh
Whomp says:
loose lips and all
jb1964 says:
It's been the theme about here so it's no big shocker
jb1964 says:
But I will keep it quiet
Whomp says:
they're kind of screwed with spears and swords
Whomp says:
it's ok i just don't want it to get to free/council/saber
jb1964 says:
That will not come via the Gongers...
Whomp says:
ok opening the other save
Whomp says:
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Whomp says:
Council did not have mono
jb1964 says:
I thought free had it...
Whomp says:
free had it the turn before
Whomp says:
so they didn't give it to council
Whomp says:
hmm
jb1964 says:
yes, interesting
Whomp says:
i wonder if Council saw what we saw on Saber
jb1964 says:
And easy target?
jb1964 says:
Or a Wonder build?
Whomp says:
yep because remember how saber added workers
jb1964 says:
yes
Whomp says:
they went from 8 to 10 to 12
Whomp says:
and starvation in the capital
jb1964 says:
we thought it was too late, but were not sure how close we were to getting to the flame
Whomp says:
still starving
jb1964 says:
starving, man they were pushing it...
Whomp says:
Saber's capital has been starving for awhile
Whomp says:
and the city next to it is size 12
jb1964 says:
Expect them to get Colossus soon
Whomp says:
including a mined desert
jb1964 says:
is the size 12 city a coastal city?
Whomp says:
yep
jb1964 says:
OK, good for them, otherwise it would be a real big firggin' loss
Whomp says:
huge because they're freakin ancient
Whomp says:
i'm a little concerned that council and free haven't been trading techs lately though
jb1964 says:
They have got to be just going nuts over there
Whomp says:
they'll need to cover every coastal tile there is
jb1964 says:
ye[
Whomp says:
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Whomp says:
we have extra horses btw so getting them to you is big
jb1964 says:
And we have the iron
Whomp says:
ok good
Whomp says:
now let's both get salt
jb1964 says:
I'm gonna be pissed if the Axis has all the lower tier techs in one camp and are going to get education to us prior to sharing...
Whomp says:
that would blow
Whomp says:
i'm thinking their recognition of saber would be recent
jb1964 says:
Send us the contacts so we can know sooner rather than later
Whomp says:
ok will do
Whomp says:
engineering is done
Whomp says:
now it's how far through the lower they gifted
jb1964 says:
Well, they're smart, I just don't want them to be mind-readers
Whomp says:
i know
Whomp says:
you've worked hard at this some it's time to get paid!
Whomp says:
*so not some
jb1964 says:
I'm very pleased w/ how this has gone, despite the drama, and would like a payout other than denial for Sabre
Whomp says:
no freakin' doubt
Whomp says:
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Whomp says:
here's the upshot
jb1964 says:
good, I need this...
Whomp says:
free may not have shared mono because council and us know free but not saber
Whomp says:
we don't have engineering so Saber would only know 1 other
Whomp says:
so their thinking might be the lower was fine to share
Whomp says:
and then race to education so saber wouldn't beat them
Whomp says:
meaning council and babe are sabers contacts
jb1964 says:
yes
Whomp says:
upon recognition of that they may already have researched past powder
Whomp says:
and pray they've shared to that point
jb1964 says:
Sorry, thinking hard, head hurting...
Whomp says:
me too
jb1964 says:
Short of invading Counsel I don't know how we force the sharing of the techs in the lower tier, assuning that they may be banked
Whomp says:
there's no way
Whomp says:
it would have to be researched
Whomp says:
which would just suck
jb1964 says:
True, still plan on sending the contacts, I might get vetoed by the team but I doubt it...
Whomp says:
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Whomp says:
i'm not sure why we wouldn't at this point
Whomp says:
we're not fooling anyone
jb1964 says:
ya
jb1964 says:
FYI, I'm just looking back on the earlier messages re: techs given to the Gongers, gold paid, etc...

I'd like to sit down and enjoy the view from the porch a few more turns, like canes suggested 5.

We're not sure why but the concensus is that we would like to hold off on the contacts for now.

I think we're thinking the same thing. They eventually have to gift techs to each other so maybe waiting until they get education or until they make contact might be an option. -Whomp

OK, the Babes are content w/ us sitting nice and quiet. They also have made no mention of our anarchy.

BTW, if prior to contacts we would like Republic I'm willing to bet the Babes would provide it free of charge.

My reply....


I think we're thinking the same thing. They eventually have to gift techs to each other so maybe waiting until they get education or until they make contact might be an option.

Kewl, please keep an eye on the Dirtbag's tech situation and advise as needed.

We're sitting tight reading comics and sucking down cold ones. However, we have to take the books over to the pyramids 'cause the librarian won't let us drink in the stacks.

Should you pay a visit to anyone while we Gongers sit about please take pictures and share so we may enjoy the sights.

Good thing they're not in a hurry. This could turn out to a real waiting game. If dirt's have anticipated a GLib they may have refrained from sharing too much, but that won't hold forever. Somewhere along the line one part (or both) insist on sharing because they need whatever it is to move on. Money in the bank won't buy you anything, right? By holding the techs from each other for too long they will lose a lot of their potential effect.
I predict that we, within 5 turns, will get some piece of intel that will guide us in how to proceed. Let's be cool dudes, sit back and watch 'cane swingin' the whip.

We want full value for the GLib and then some. We should be very, very patient even if it means we sit here until Free and Counsel have to go all the way to Astro and pay us a visit to put an end to the GLib.

The Babes would be fools not to take advantage of a very, very weak Saber in the next 10 turns or so to double their holdings. The slower the Dirtbags move towards Astro the longer the Babes will have to consolidate their hold on Saber's lands.

And now I just had a horrible thought. The Babes take double the landmass and settle Saber Isle in ICS fashion and start whipping culture of their own.

A PM between myself and Whomper.....


I'm just toiling away at my desk contemplating the end of the day and it struck me that burning slowly through Chiv isn't going to do you guys much good unless you have a source of iron.

I could run the save through CAII, and I will , but thought I would toss you two hotties a note.

I guess if you have a landing party that includes a settler and foreknowledge of an iron site then that makes sense.

Anything to pass along regarding the tech status of the FC Axis or anything else of note?

We're sitting on our butts waiting for the GLib payout. Ya know, if the FC-axis is dead set on not sharing techs until we're at Education then they're going to have to run suicide galleys in our direction or have one of 'em research to Astro. Either way it's going to slow down the tech pace and allow you continued ownership of the waters for an even bigger stretch.

Hey Whomp, the Cubbies are up for sale. They might go for ~$1billion. I've got $500mil laying around. Do you want to go in halves w/ me?

jb
I think we do have iron now from one of the islands.

We've sent correspondence to both Free and Council.

We asked Council to trade for engineering for mono to get a sense of what they're thinking. Council requested we research theo since they have no interest in trading engineering for mono (they said they're researching it).

Free got all bent out of shape because our two boats are blocking their coastal access on our lands. We diffused that by not talking about it and asked if they wanted to trade for engineering. They told us they don't want to trade engineering because of GONG having the Glib and they want access to our maps. This tells me they are not sharing techs with each other until they find you.
Their request for maps is laughable.
W

PS Cubs suck and they deserve Mark Cuban.

Another back and forth w/ the Whomper...

PS Cubs suck and they deserve Mark Cuban.
First off, that's damn funny.

Secondly, I almost simultaneously choked on a ham sandwich and blew caffeine free Pepsi out my nose. The obstructed airway staved off the Pepsi through the nose.

Third, that's still damn funny.

Hey, if you send Free your world map can we have it too? We'll send you 10g for it. Now that's a deal.

Well, we've stifled the tech pace! That's cool. Need to figure out how to best leverage that.

Well I think we've stifled it more than you think since Saber seems to have units on every tile along their coast. At least it's going to cost them an arm and a leg in unit support.

It might be time for plan B and hit one of the other teams and then we'll give them a map!

I'm not sure what we can do about those two sharing their techs but it requires them to research separately for sure.

Whomp

Another Babe related post....

Dutchfire made an interesting comment in the "Saber's Story" thread in reference to what they could see from the vantage point of the colossus.

Free and Council should take it as a big red flag.

Are that girls on the boats we constantly see? (They looked like horses to us, maybe we should ask Emp Killyouall for some new binoculars) :p

We need to have a pow wow with the BABEs. Their actions make no sense to me, and it would nice if they could tell their allies if they are planning on attacking Free or Council. We are way out of the information loop.

We need to have a pow wow with the BABEs. Their actions make no sense to me, and it would nice if they could tell their allies if they are planning on attacking Free or Council. We are way out of the information loop.

Well, lets talk about this here before we talk to them. what actions don't make sense? What kinds of questions are there that we would like to have answers?

They built up a big army to attack Saber and now Saber's shores are closed off. Plan B = ?

Ya, I don't like operating in the dark either but it's sorta what we're stuck with until the others make it over the pond. I agree that we could be getting more info outta the Babes when it comes to the rest of the world but I've been sorta of the mind to leave them be while their gaze has been over the sea.

What's everyone's thinking in terms of a confab w/ the Babes?

Someone suggested that Saber might be going for 100K as well. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but doesn't 100k have two conditions that have to be met:
1) 100K
2) double the size of the next biggest civ

If Saber is going for 100K as well, neither of us will be able to win that way. :hmm:

Someone suggested that Saber might be going for 100K as well. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but doesn't 100k have two conditions that have to be met:
1) 100K
2) double the size of the next biggest civ

If Saber is going for 100K as well, neither of us will be able to win that way. :hmm:

Unless we do it way better than them!

Someone suggested that Saber might be going for 100K as well. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but doesn't 100k have two conditions that have to be met:
1) 100K
2) double the size of the next biggest civ

If Saber is going for 100K as well, neither of us will be able to win that way. :hmm:

Well then, Saber must die. And the only way to crack that nut is going to be w/ Marines.

Do we have to double the culture of a dead civilization or does their removal from the game lower the bar, assuming that they get past 50k for it to matter?

Also, we might be able to do it far more better :),Saber's only cultural building as of turn 112 were temples. They still lacked Literature and will have to self research to Theo. Now, assuming they're going culture, they can get 5cpt/city out of temples and libs. We can add in caths, & unis far earlier.

Hey, I had a brief talk w/ Whomp and the entire Babe team is so frustrated with the discovery that Sabre has lined their shores w/ units that they've asked the powers that be (PTB's) for a ruling about this tactic.

They've not gotten an answer as of yet.

I'm surprised they haven't even considered meeting an island fortress on this map.

I'm surprised they haven't even considered meeting an island fortress on this map.

I'm not sure if they didn't think it was possible to pull this off or they thought of it as dishonorable, and therefore unlikely to be put into practice.

These guys have held up the save again. Is it because of the shore incident with Sabre or what? Lets get them on the horn and talk about it.

So what do you guys think of this?

So far the only response was not positive......

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=5762381&postcount=646

To the other teams:
Team Babe has put it to a vote and as of right now we're are planning to resign the game. If you can give us another day I'd appreciate it so we can discuss all the options. -The Whomper

What gives?

Whomp sounded really grim in the thread so I think they mean business. Even if Saber has bottled up their invasion plans, that shouldn't be enough to cause a resignation. I mean, why else does the concept of a plan B exist?

This could really jolt us if the Babes are gone. No ally to fight wars for us, and what would be the effect on the GLib? I think that would reduce us to "one contact" status, but I'm not sure.

It might be a little early to speculate on what the game would be like without them, but I suppose we should also be on top of the planning-ahead game.

I still wonder what has caused them to come to within a whisker's length of tossing in the towel. Perhaps all three of their horse resources disappeared on the inter-turn and reappeared on the Saber island? :crazyeye:

I suppose the thought of pressing end turn until marines might just take the fun out of the game, if you had 100 MW's the GL and a safe galley route. However in that case I would have suspected that they just send all those MW's in our direction.

Edit - looks like I called it. they don't want to hang around until marines.

What was the decision on Howcha's? did they have lethal bombadment or not? could they be used from the back of a Galley?

I find it hard to believe that Sabre has their ENTIRE island surrounded with warriors, if so the BABEs should have realized this forever ago. And why not attack FREE???? These jokers are building settlers and are like only a couple galley moves away. Why doesnt BABE discuss with us the situation? There are many solutions to this problem.

Or indeed backstab us (not that I am suggesting it!) - you guys want to call a council of war with Whomp, and chat it over. If they are giving up anyway they may spill some beans over their strategy, and we could offer suggestions. They are in a good place re contacts and have a pretty good idea of the world map, so offering to coordinate the exploration of the dark bits of the map - Riks comments hinted to me of some further surprises. They have GL so they would be at an advantage for the exploration in any case. Any undiscovered land will be chock full of barbs by now, so you'd need som MW's to settle it anyway.

W/o having read the whole thread in UN, I'm very surprised/disappointed they haven't discussed this with us in any way. They know they put us in a bad spot by abandoning and don't even bother to give us a call. Pathetic IMIO!

I spoke w/ Whomp at length and he was trying to argue that they should continue on and attack Council but it sounded like the rest of the team felt as if their element of surprise was gone and that they would be cut down at the shore.

Also, they had boats in place for a one turn re-supply and going to an alternate spot would screw that over as well.

Whomp seems like a voice of reason but he seems to have been shouted down.

I talked to Whomp as well. Only BCLG and Kickbooti want to continue. I think this is silly however. I think their fear is that everyone else has blocked off their shores as well. Shouldnt they journey on down to find that out? According to Whomp, Council is 3 turns away and Free is 8 turns. They signed a peace agreement with Council til turn 129.

I would at least backstab Council or go over to Free; I sent them the Free screenshot and told them Free's military strength (nil). I hate to say it, but what are they complaining about?? There seem to be simple, fun, and destructive options for them.

If everyone is blocked, then yes that would suck badly, but they havent even confirmed that.

Cane, I completely agree w/ you. I don't understand this attitude where they're number one target is blocked out and therefore they're ready to bag it.

And I also tried to toss some blood in the water by telling them that Free's a target ripe to be picked but I didn't seem to be getting through.

I think it was insane to make all this public. Let those that want to quit do so and let those that are willing to continue pick up the gauntlet and make the best of it by bloodying the hell out of somebody... anybody.

Well I can guarantee a 100k is impossible...

Oh really? Hmmph. :sad: I guess that means we should just sell off all the culture stuff and get back to making units or some'in.

Let's prove him wrong, 'k? :D

Whomp posted that gem in the Coastal Fort/No Fort thread just a few minutes ago...

Anywhooo, I agree with you jb. Having the Babes rant about their frustrations in such a public way was quite ridiculous. They left a bitter taste in a lot of people 's mouth about this game, it seems. I almost want to see the Babes win just to see them have to eat some crow...almost.

I can only agree w what has being said. I never thought Babes to be so one track minded. And the element of surprise, if there ever was one, is blewn by themselves by now. If what has been said in UN by others, Babes choose an obvious strategy and Saber adjusted to that waaay back. It was bad planning, full stop. Cane has it right that there's a lot of evil, fun and creative ways to tackle the situation. What about trading blockades, cool diplo moves, creative handling of rescourses and a nerve wrecking race towards Astro. How can that be boring? They have a die-hard ally with both Pyramids and GongLib. How can they consider themselves dead meat? I just don't giddit.
I'm very excited about Whompers comment on 100K and that alone is fuel enough for me to fight for this game to continue.

Edit: how should we handle the situation w Babes. We have been low key and somewhat tounge in cheek in the UN which is perfect IMIO. We are going for the "impossible" 100K and Babes will soon find that out. How will they react? My vote goes to suggesting Babes gift us all cities but 1, sign a permanent RoP and then play as one team going for a 100K, blocking all the coast tiles. Stupid? Yes! But the proposal could make for fun reading if jb wrote it :D

Edit 2: Just sent a pm to Wotan saying we would be grateful if they didn't resign leaving us w/o an ally and a half strategy left. I also suggested the above with a ;) . Gift us all Babes cities, let Hefner's Palace be conquered, then choose to either leave the mtdg for good or join the Gongers.

Seems I wasn't too far out because this is exactly what's being discussed in the Babe forum (according to wotan). Babes are building infra that will stand through gifting, preparing to give us their island in one sweep. But, and this is a big one, first of all they wanna try for a cult-flip of one Saber city that's located near a one tiler Babes got just outside the Saber coast. They're packin it with culture right now and that's their plan A.2. Plan B is the gifting. They will, if A.2 failes, land whatever units they have on Dirtbags and wreck as much havoc as possible just before gifting us the lot :lol:
I said they could write an official proposal up if they wanted but not demanding it of course. Hopefully they will stand by this even when they see our cult-o-meter go boom. Funnily enough they're, by the looks of it, not anticipating our 100K and asking them to build culture insted of markets might be pushing it too far.
Anyways, this might turn out to be a very strange mtdg indeed. :crazyeye:

Whomp stated that 100k is 100% out in their opinion, so I think they won't give attention the moment they notice our culture goes kaboom.

I doubt the admins would let BABE give us all their cities, but you never know! It would be quite hard to lose in that instance with appropriate defense.

Whomp stated that 100k is 100% out in their opinion, so I think they won't give attention the moment they notice our culture goes kaboom.
I do wonder if the other teams have even bothered to notice our culture...

Maybe they think we're going for 20k?

Conversation w/ Whomp....

BTW, did you send our Babe pals Engineering?


jb1964, Lord Regent of Dork Chester says:
heya...
Whomp says:
Hi Dudeness
jb1964 says:
well, we know everyone now
Whomp says:
ok
jb1964 says:
only got engineering
Whomp says:
no surprise there i suppose
Whomp says:
. .. .. .. .
Whomp says:
i kinda had a feeling
Whomp says:
i think we need to land on council to force it
jb1964 says:
we're weak to both saber and council, average to free
jb1964 says:
free is upper path and council is lower
Whomp says:
are you sure?
jb1964 says:
that's the world according to killer
Whomp says:
ok
jb1964 says:
if free is really upper and average to us then they are certainly the weaker target.
Whomp says:
i could've sworn council researched mono
jb1964 says:
hey, killer might be going off of gut
Whomp says:
logistic nightmare though
jb1964 says:
the upper tier researcher is certainly the best target
Whomp says:
right
jb1964 says:
I see that killer sent you the screen caps of both saber and council's capitol
Whomp says:
[ ZoneAlarm Security alert: Session not encrypted because bawhomp@yahoo.com is not protected by IM Security ]
Whomp says:
ok cool
Whomp says:
i suggested a plan
Whomp says:
land on council to set precedent
Whomp says:
when they scream we'll move
Whomp says:
publicly for instance
jb1964 says:
why would they scream?
Whomp says:
because we're on their land
jb1964 says:
ya, that's the piont of an attack
Whomp says:
well they'll scream in the UN right?
Whomp says:
BABE is not fair yada yada
jb1964 says:
sure, they'll go nuts
Whomp says:
perfect
Whomp says:
because
Whomp says:
we're rushing a lib, temple, cath and colloseum on the saber island
Whomp says:
guess who'll be on our lands unwanted?
jb1964 says:
interesting tactic
Whomp says:
let them dig their own hole
Whomp says:
everyone hates us anyhow
jb1964 says:
well, hate's a strong work
jb1964 says:
word
Whomp says:
pft
jb1964 says:
but ya, they hate you....
Whomp says:
there's was plenty of hatred being dished
jb1964 says:
hahaha
Whomp says:
Tubby thinks we should bring Saber on board
Whomp says:
i'm really reluctant on that
jb1964 says:
Well, Johnny's taxi needs to take off for about 20 minutes to get one of my boys
Whomp says:
get rewarded for sucking?
Whomp says:
ok
jb1964 says:
Na, get rewarded for being left out in the freaking cold
jb1964 says:
I'm still a fan of 3v2
Whomp says:
he thinks the other two will do it if we don't
jb1964 says:
well, somebody has invention because the cost is down to 1161'ish from a CAII value of 1320.
jb1964 says:
hmm, it appears as if nobody has theology....
jb1964 says:
it still has a cost of ~1080
Whomp says:
i could've sworn Free did
jb1964 says:
hey, I'm a rook w/ some of this tea-leaf reading....
Whomp says:
i'm going to look at the save real quick
jb1964 says:
but if we want to get Theo CA II is saying that it's 1080...
jb1964 says:
And if I move the slider around the costs are real close to the 1080 number
Whomp says:
brb i'll check
Whomp says:
hbr, mm and poly to saber
Whomp says:
up mono on council
Whomp says:
seems free is upper
jb1964 says:
to bad the logistic's didn't favor a visi to FREE
Whomp says:
it takes 10 ish turns to get full force to free
Whomp says:
or council i mean
jb1964 says:
is that knights or MW's?
jb1964 says:
I'm hoping knights
Whomp says:
MW's
Whomp says:
pikes and MIs
Whomp says:
i think we head fake council
Whomp says:
no one's listening to me though
jb1964 says:
Is Wotan still playing?
Whomp says:
he is
Whomp says:
pretty discombobulated
Whomp says:
he had a small town go into disorder...very unWotan like

Originally Posted by killercane
Crap I just realized that we forgot to send Engineering again. I will put a reminder to myself in the forum. Sorry about that, wasnt intentional and I hope you didnt need it this turn.

No problem with it, we have yet to find a way to get onto SABER island. Not sure we will go the distance, the debacle after SABER beachdefenses of sticks and stones we have lost most of our interest in this game. Building infrastructure now that will stay if we gift/sell you our cities. Planning to use our units to wreck as much havoc as possible prior to it though.
-Wotang Clan

Building infrastructure now that will stay if we gift/sell you our cities.
-Wotang Clan

I don't know if anyone is serious on this--I really hope and suspect not--but if so, that's royally cheap. I'd hate that if I was on a third-party team and would have great reason to cry foul.

It would screw the game up royally, and I wouldnt think we would vote to accept regardless. I cant believe they are still on this woe is us thing, they really are sitting in the best position to win the game right now! Our culture is a gamble, but their military keeps them in good position regardless, and they are not in a tech hole so ?

I bent Whomp's ear over the Babe galley and asked for an explanation. He seemed to not know what Wotan was up to so I suggested they send the Galley about to keep an eye out for us.

I'll contact the Babes via gmail tomorrow and see what we get.

Just a thought - are the Babes metagaming us? OK I am prepared to believe that Wotan threw a strop when his plans went astray - he has form for that. I do not believe that the calibre of the rest of the team just let him. What if this whole "we're going to give up" was some form of elaborate ploy.

Proceeding on this assumption we then have that the invasion would be a fake invasion, which would mean that they would actually be allied with the ones they are trying to invade.

I think the guys on Babe have the calibre to pull off a heavy deception like this, but I can't see what they would gain by it.

If it's a ploy and the pull it off I'll :salute: . Nevertheless I think that what we see is what we get here. I just cannot see Whomper and co backstabbing in that manner and I'd be :mad: if they did. What I would like to know is why they're sailing in our part of the pond w/o notifying us (because they haven't, right?). That is breaking the treaty:
No Gatecrashing
-Entering each others territory is prohibited unless the other part accepts the visit. Visitors are required to announce type and number of units before entering.

A lightbulb moment reveals the possible reason for doing this. Babes wants us to react in rage and declare the treaty void. That would open up for them to attack us "honorably". We might ask them politely if they believe our mutual agreement is in any way interfering with their current plans.
Edit: Looking at the treaty I get even more suspicious when reading this:
This treaty is valid from the date that both teams have sealed it.
It will last until both teams are the last ones standing.
This treaty can otherwise only be canceled if (1) both teams agree on doing so, or (2) if one side delibriatly violates it.

Number 2 can be what we're facing if Babes answers "Yes, we're by this canceling the treaty. That is correct".
I'd say block all the possible landing tiles immediately :run:

Number 2 can be what we're facing if Babes answers "Yes, we're by this canceling the treaty. That is correct".
I'd say block all the possible landing tiles immediately
Good discussion. This is where it sucks to not have horses. To get units to the far coast from the core we have to have them built 6-8 turns ahead of time. Whipping them in the swamps sucks bc the troops will have to stay in cities to combat unhappiness and cant be deployed coastally.

The answer from Wotan says: Sorry absolut inte en tanke på något sådant, den är påväg hemåt efter att ha snurrat runt först Council och sedan FREE. Jag har totalt förbisett avtalet. Kan vi komma runt er ö i "seatiles" utan att gå in i ert territorium?, which means : Sorry, completely forgot about the treaty. We're on our way home after circling Council then Free. Can I pass your island on seatiles w/o crossing your territory?.
So by the looks of it, it's not intentional but a mistake. That would mean Babes cannot attack and then point to #2 and say they did it to end the treaty. To be sure I'd like GA/RM have their interpretation. If one of you read this, please have your say.

sure - given that respose we just back date the invite - 1 galley in our territory to the extent that there are no suitable sea tiles for turns 120 to 125 (or whatever)

Then they certainly can't break the treaty under deliberate violation.

I spoke to Whomp last night, Simon joined in also, and pointed out the infraction. He honestly had no idea what Wotan was up to and chalked it up to a mistake that he would follow up on.

Given the nature of our relationship I don't have a problem w/ the Babes skirting our territory.

I just don't see a big Whompian conspiracy here. If the Babes were aligned w/ F&C then we would already be dead. F&C are both looking to pull us in as protection against the Babes. And Saber knows that they're the +1 that makes the game 2+1 vs 2.

Another pm from Wotan stresses the fact that he himself, and not the team, is responsible for the mishap so I guess we're clear on that for now.
On diplomacy in general I think that now is the time to sit back and enjoy the view, have a nice chat with everyone, offer som Pyramid Beer and wait for someone to make an offer worth considering. If Babes are all good we're fine for now. If RF is right on "hidden" islands we might consider picking up the pace towards Astro. Can we start a pre-build for another cool wonder somewhere? Cop's?

Why dont we send some galleys along with the BABE galleys, loaded or not to spur tech trade? We can try to send 4, a couple should make it.

Why dont we send some galleys along with the BABE galleys, loaded or not to spur tech trade? We can try to send 4, a couple should make it.

The Babes are landing on Council. Sending a few units isn't going to spur trade because it's Council, I think, that's the holder of the Free/Council brain trust in the lower tier.

However, asking to tag along would be interesting because we could ask for some nice maps to follow. And whatever units made it over there would give us a first hand accounting of the battle. Since we couldn't stack w/ the Babes I would send pikes to wander the mountains.

Yes Council holds the lower techs, Free the upper, hence they would need to trade to Free if Free feels threatened. Council if threatened they just go along with their plan.

talk w/ Whomp...

We got a map showing the route to FREE and some interesting naval advice.

jb1964 says:
The Axis of dirtbags just provided us w/ Theology... Education will be next unless we give them a reason to trade either by deception or force.
Whomp says:
wow, how?
jb1964 says:
well, the force would have to come from you....
jb1964 says:
deception would have to amount to signing some sort of treaty w/ them w/ every intention of breaking it.
jb1964 says:
Most of our guys wouldn't advocate deception
jb1964 says:
But it would be cool
Whomp says:
did you get it from GLib?
jb1964 says:
yes, GLib
Whomp says:
hmm
jb1964 says:
we're sitting on our lazy asses at the moment waiting for the big Babe shoe to drop
Whomp says:
hehe
Whomp says:
well it's coming soon
jb1964 says:
hey, killer's talking about sending some ships to join up w/ you. We'll lose 50% of what we send, or more, but he thinks it'll add to the idea that they need to swap techs.
Whomp says:
ok
Whomp says:
i like the idea of sending some stuff to Free
jb1964 says:
Gawd I would love to bang them like there was no tomorrow
jb1964 says:
Can you give any advice on best routs?
Whomp says:
sure
Whomp says:
Let me send a map
jb1964 says:
That would suffice...
Whomp says:
I wonder if our boat is nearby...let me look
jb1964 says:
Hey, just for your info... Saber doesn't know Free and Council won't give them the contact. We're thinking of giving it to them to generate a little goodwill. Any objections?
Whomp says:
Why won't council give contact?
Whomp says:
weird
jb1964 says:
I think council is trying to sell the contact and split the proceeds w/ free
Whomp says:
give it
jb1964 says:
They don't give a rat's butt about Saber
Whomp says:
give it
Whomp says:
loading
Whomp says:
here?
jb1964 says:
yes... tequila taking hold though
Whomp sends: (see Hall of Records for the map)
Whomp says:
right where our galley is
Whomp says:
i don't think it matters whether you end in ocean versus sea
Whomp says:
so the move from Stone Pony to ocean
jb1964 says:
sweet.... this could be fun
Whomp says:
survives to coast
Whomp says:
you need two turns to survive
jb1964 says:
we would have two turns in sea tiles. I'll post this in the Hall of Documents
Whomp says:
one getting to the coastal bridge
Whomp says:
and another from the bridge to Free
Whomp says:
i wish we could gift units
Whomp says:
There's an island they've taken to the NW of Numenor
Whomp says:
bigger
Whomp says:
could fit two-three cities
Whomp says:
they have one there now
jb1964 says:
man, you're really sitting pretty with those islands
jb1964 says:
I'm totally expecting those to be absolutely critical to the game
Whomp says:
i think so too
Whomp says:
we'll share believe me
Whomp says:
it's going to be a naval onslaught in this game
jb1964 says:
And to reiterate... you guys are total bastards for grabbing those lands! And I think it's fall down funny.
Whomp says:
carriers and bombers will be big
Whomp says:
Glight was THE wonder
jb1964 says:
It really was... we had an eye on it but you got there first
Whomp says:
it literally destroyed Saber's game
Whomp says:
seems they and everyone else knew we'd use it
Whomp says:
and will
Whomp says:
they need astro fast
jb1964 says:
that's the card we're trying to play w/ the others to spook them....
Whomp says:
you could also ship chain
Whomp says:
most important in my opinion
you could also ship chain
Whomp says:
most important in my opinion
Whomp says:
block the 3 sea tiles in front of the coastal bridge
Whomp says:
caravels are useless there
Whomp says:
they can't reach you if those are blocked
Whomp says:
caravels only attack with one so you can keep sending units if those are blocked

This is worth a read....

I noticed this mail and though I do not speak for the team now i think it is safe to say that this will not go down nicely among BABEs. We only stayed in the game so as to possibly act as Kingmakers and sort of make sure you had a better than average chance at winning, We are going to wreak havok among Council in a few turns (hopefully) and have asked for an extension to talk things over about how to speed this up. One idea woudl be to ask you to build Galleys and GS/MI and send to FREE. In time for you to take the leap across from the resource island north to FREE we would transfer possession of The GLH so you can do it risk free. later, when our forces on Council islnad has expired to be a force to use we would sell our total assets for 1 gold or any price you find to be more reasonable.

But should SABER now enter the picture that sole purpose we percive will disappear so everything is put in a very awkward position I guess. We do not wish to have anything to do with them that is absolutely positively something i am sure about and feel I can say swithout any need to confer with the team. But should they be invited into teh warmth again it sure require a lot of discussions and please be advised the outcome might not be positive.

Wotan

EDIT: Please be advised SABER has recently traded with Council but they are a bunch of no-good-for-nothing's so why shouldn't they play dishonourably in this case????

Wotan

I got a similar PM from Whomp.

What? I'm losing track of who hates who the most.

Babes hate saber and the council but like us

council and free don't seem to trust each other

this must be the reason I stay out of all the diplomacy stuff.

Council and Free are allies. Babe hates Saber, but cant land them so they must be thinking Free now...

Saber is becoming friends to Council, so in general:

Council does lower tech tree, Free does upper and Saber gets them the cash.

GONG & BABE vs COUNCIL & FREE & SABER in trades affairs.

Hmm BABE giving us TGL for some turns will work per the rules. We cant spare any scientists to build ships atm (or troops for that matter) but we can in a few turns. FREE land would be very nice. I dont think we can get a huge force together before Astro though, so gifting of TGL might not be that advantageous at this point.

Does a change to Republic, go zero research, after Invention of course, and start buying an army make any sense whatsoever?

And it does make more sense to go after FREE but logistically it's easier for them to attack The Council.

If the Babes do gift us the GLight it does appear to be w/i the rules but I bet it won't be next time.

Let's get a countdown from the Babes and see what we can send to FREE and when. Even a pack of pikes running around the mountains and hills might be enough to keep them from helping The Council.

Gifting Leos to BABES might be most advantageous. We could then ask the BABErs to leave troops up here on our land and take up MP cost. Then republic would look much much better.

Gifting Leos to BABES might be most advantageous. We could then ask the BABErs to leave troops up here on our land and take up MP cost. Then republic would look much much better.

That's the coolest idea. Hell, since it seems the Babes are thinking of bagging this wholesale and are interested in being kingmakers why don't we ask them to stay around for the duration. Keep a core of cities that will pump units and we'll take the rest of the lands and pump out culture at an alarming rate. I almost wish there was a way we could cross th finish line together.

Im a bit noob in this gifting Wonders stuff, you´re talking about giving possession of our level 12 city Dark Side of the Moon to BABE yes? for a couple turns or 1 turn so they can upgrade all units at once to cavalry.

I think the latter is what we're talking about here, then a RoP and some other (smaller) city which they could rax and have as home away from home.

Is it possible to get to know from our babe friends what is going on ? Is gifting them LEOs still our plan ?

I second Mark. From the looks of it, the BABEs are sucking; why bring *one* defense unit to invade?

What are the BABE´s researching?

From Wotan...

"Gunpowder in 4 turns"

That message was earlier today so it's attributable to Turn 128 so we should expect Gunpowder on turn 132 barring any new developments.

OK, the back and forth w/ Wotan....

Here's the abstract....
Wotan: Damn! We got our butts kicked and lost about all our units on Council! Some of the battles look fishy and I smell a rat!
jb: Ya, that looks goofy but I can almost understand why you would attack w/ a 1 hp unit against a MW w/ a defense rating of 1.
Wotan: HUH!?!
jb: Dude, don't tell me about it... talk to the powers-that-be and provide facts.
The End

From Wotan...

"Gunpowder in 4 turns"

That message was earlier today so it's attributable to Turn 128 so we should expect Gunpowder on turn 132 barring any new developments.

Thats really good news, we can stay idle then till we get Education and go straight to Astro.

Exchange w/ Wotan:

Originally Posted by killercane
How about an update from the war front? Also, I figure when we get education, we dont give it to you, but wait until we have ascertained that teh other two have traded over Chemistry/Astro and give you TGL. That way we get it all for free. Only problem being if they dont trade for a turn or two, and dont look like they will, we would have to get started on researching again.

We have cleared out their "resource island". We have lost 20 units they are down 13. They unfortunatley managed to get enough reinforcements in to secure the town we threatened on the mainland last turn at least the report suggest that. No more 1HP attacks.

We will now change and go for hit and run tactics. With so few units they are bound to leave huge gaps everywhere. We are now in GA and producing enough Knights for a big finale with a new landing around 25 turns from now. Sure will be interesting to see what they can put up at to counter our second big landing.

Wotan should be counting on Cavalry avaiable for Council to counter their Knights in 25 turns! Thats just bad planning from BABES. They are gonna get themselves killed, they should block off the resource island and concentrate on build up infrastructure since they are in golden age + chop some forests would be enough for a few libraries/marketplaces....

The hit and run tactics in the north sounds nice

Finally some useful maps from BABE.

Those 2 FREE islands sure look tasty, i wonder how would they look like in a green suit :D

Per our treaty w/ the Babes we're not supposed to trade w/ Saber, or anyone else for that matter, w/o running it past them for their blessings.

That's why I say it's nice to get them (Babes) on our side but this relationship is a bit smothering now.

If we deal w/ Saber we need approval or some cover.

That was a really stupid invasion plan. No defense to speak of. You have to figure you are going to lose a bunch of units.

Well they where planning to hit SABER, so they lost all the surprise element against Council :P

OK, lets sell the techs to Saber...

From the Babes...

I think we're in agreement. If we can stop the other two from spending Saber's goldI don't see a problem with it. Let us know what you need.



Originally Posted by jb1964
Good news. Sorry, I've been out of the loop as of late. Let's see if I can start making a difference.

Hey, Saber's buying techs from council left and right. I think it's time for us to do the selling and pull in the gold. At the very least we keep Saber neutral.

Thoughts?

Originally Posted by Whomp
JB,

Just to give you an update. We've razed or Council has abandoned 5 cities. Three on a island and two in their SW. We plan to continue to harrass their coast but have put our units back on boats and plan a vareity of different landings.

I think our plan should be interesting as it develops.
Let us know if you need any further help on Free.

W

Originally Posted by killercane
Saber has approached us about buying tech from us rather than Council. Council is offering 33% of monopoly tech value for Education. We can probably sell for 25% of value and split the gold with you. What is your take on this? They also say they can provide Banking in exchange for something.

No discussion on this topic in our forum, I'm afraid. Activities are extremely low. I am pretty sure it is just a question of how many more turns we will be around. Gifting all to you is becoming a rather obvious solution now.

Gunpowder next turn. FREE has, with almost certainty, Astronomy now. Two Galleys in sea tiles.
Wotan

Originally Posted by killercane
Saber has approached us about buying tech from us rather than Council. Council is offering 33% of monopoly tech value for Education. We can probably sell for 25% of value and split the gold with you. What is your take on this? They also say they can provide Banking in exchange for something.

No discussion on this topic in our forum, I'm afraid. Activities are extremely low. I am pretty sure it is just a question of how many more turns we will be around. Gifting all to you is becoming a rather obvious solution now.

Gunpowder next turn. FREE has, with almost certainty, Astronomy now. Two Galleys in sea tiles.
Wotan

Hmmmm, I missed this one earlier.

Will comment more later.

OK, this makes no sense.

The Babes are busy kicking up dirt in Council-land and they're talking about retiring?!?

I would rather they not gift us their cities and then walk away. The others will scream "rat!" and make us target numero uno. It's just waaaay outside the spirit of the game.

Sounds like at least someone on Babe is having fun going on the rampage. Whether it is a coherent strategy, some one just using up all the MW's they have and when they get bored they will quit, or whether they have been playing a VERY cleaver diplo game and have another alliance. In any case I wouldn't accept a mass gift of cities from Babe (although if they offered them all I would take DSOTM back as a special case)

Conversation w/ Whomper....

Originally Posted by jb1964
The total came out to 1400g,

As we get payments we'll send you the 50% cut.

I would like to put a peace treaty in place w/ Saber for the next 40 turns or so to concentrate on FREE. Any objections?

jb
JB,

I can't remember but do we have a defense pact? If we do can you make Saber aware that they shouldn't monkey around with our plans and attack us.

If we don't we should have one. Do you think we should sign a peace deal with them?

W

We Don't have a defense pact. How would that look? We agree to help each other out if landed upon? I would still like to maintain as much of the good cop/bad cop appearance that we can to take advantage at a letter date.

I was just toying w/ the idea of signing up Saber to a peace deal for 40 or so turns.

Getting Saber to leave you alone shouldn't be a problem because we're openly tech partners and if they want us to continue to undercut Council/Free then they need to not screw us over.

BTW, we got 1400g coming our way for the tech sale so you'll be getting your cut as we go.

Anyway, let's keep this thread going and come up w/ something.

jb

From Wotan... We're going to get a city should Saber get violent.

Hey guys,

Any more updates on the campaign?

And did Saber declare war or are they trying to provoke you into doing that?

I Bcc'ed you guys on my second note to them. I'm telling the troops not to send any more techs until they do us the courtesy of responding to my notes.

jb
I have a little twist up my sleave. But will wait until they have landed a horde. Then we gift you the town and they don't have a target of ours to go after.

Another note from Wotan....

Don't plan for a Leo swap, it is not worth it. We are building 4-5 Knights a turn now during our GA.

The GLib OTOH would be a nice twist, FREE tried to gift us Education this turn. I guess they have considered you giving us access to it if they would swap techs with Council. The longer we can keep them from swapping the better I guess. FREE with open sealanes but no units.

We will have chemistry next turn. The main event this turn is that Council has a Caravel! Seems they have swapped techs with FREE after all. So shoudl we enact the GLib swap to gain whatever they have now? We will postpone until we have sorted this I guess.

If we gift now we will only get Astro, and we already have 3 turns of research lost on it...i dont know...maybe wait till they have Metallurgy, Mil Trad and Magnetism? We promissed to sell Astro to SABER soon on the other hand and we need some 6/5 turns more to get Astro in the normal way.

Yeah I would like to get more value out of it as well. But we can then research nav or physics with BABE getting Chemistry so not all that bad.

Case,

Our team has completely lost interest and disappeared. What would you think about the Glib trick and then afterwards we gift all our cities to you and then retire our capital.

We don't want to leave you guys in a lurch.
B

Posted in turn tracker by Wotan:

Energy added for a few turns this turn. If you all can convince Council to sacrifice a unit or two each turn to BABE attacks I am sure my energy will keep flowing...

Guys, when will we get the GLib? Council is talking about having Frigates soon so maybe in a few turns time? Or do we wait for them to show for a fact they have frigates? Now would give us Physics and Astronomy while a short wait will probably add another tech.

___________________________
Maybe we should go ahead and gift it to em?

i say short wait....what will be the cost of gifting sugar mountain again? Losing double cultural, temple, cathedral, 2-3 turns of production, we will have Astro in 2 turns....

I say wait for another tech.