View Full Version : Something I don't get about this game


Archbob
Apr 08, 2001, 10:55 PM
When your under a communism, there is no corruption. This doesn't add up. Now explain to me how a communism can not have any corruption.

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Smash
Apr 08, 2001, 11:48 PM
The same way money loving Democracies can't be bribed.

BlueMonday
Apr 09, 2001, 01:14 AM
The theory is that because the state controls the economy then there can't be any corruption. However in real life...

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[This message has been edited by BlueMonday (edited April 09, 2001).]

FearlessLeader2
Apr 09, 2001, 02:13 AM
The governments in Civilization are idealistic versions of government forms from the real world. Doubtless, in a true Democracy, it would be impossible to 'bribe' a city or unit, because everyone would get a vote, and you'd need a 2-3rds majority, and it would be just a royal pain. And only in a computer-generated fantasy could Communism be anything but a vile instrument of oppression. You have to keep in mind that the people in a game can be perfect, and actually live up to their cultural ideals and mores. In the real world, people are fallible, and governments are run by people. In a perfect Commune, all of the people would share equally in the task of building and preserving the community, and no one would be 'in charge'. Like most advanced governments, communism requires people who live under it to willingly live for the group rather than for themselves, and nowhere in the world do people exist like that. Enough of this ranting.

VanillaCube
Apr 09, 2001, 02:28 AM
by that definition the Borg are communist!

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Marko Polo
Apr 09, 2001, 04:54 AM
I think that no-corruption communism in Civ2 is the most unrealistic concept. In real communism you simply can't get anything done if you are not willing to pay bribes to the officials.

In Civ1 there was the same corruption level in each city undependable of the capital location. This was far more realistic and should have been implemented in Civ2 as well.

GenghisK
Apr 09, 2001, 05:52 AM
Sure, communism cannot have bribes since under communism government nobody has enough money to bribe http://forums.civfanatics.com/ubb/biggrin.gifhttp://forums.civfanatics.com/ubb/biggrin.gif
More seriously, the communism described in Civ looks really like the "ideal" Marx communism, which has no link with the real life communism (but the name?). Ok, don't shout to me you've not read the Marx theory but, I tell you, that's my humble point of view...
So at least, you can learn something useful from Civ: a piece of Marx' theory http://forums.civfanatics.com/ubb/smile.gif

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stormerne
Apr 09, 2001, 06:23 AM
Bribes for officials? Nah... just "incidental expenses" or "sundries". It all goes into the party machinery and goes round and round.

There's no corruption in Communism because no one dare say that there is. Therefore there isn't. No one can point to it - at least no one still living - so it doesn't exist.

And what government in the world is living up to its name and its representation in Civ? None at all.

Anyway, on a practical note. I'm glad that the Civ2 version of Communism exists in the game of Civ.

And there's an odd thing. Democratic units and cities are immune to bribing (hah!) but only stacked units from other government types are immune. OK so it's a good ploy, but why IMMUNE? Why not just more expensive? Trying to stack my cities just makes them bigger http://forums.civfanatics.com/ubb/wink.gif

Quick. Disengage rant mode. Disengage waffle mode.

GenghisK
Apr 09, 2001, 08:03 AM
I think it's more a clever game design from Sid Meier to balance the game. It would help players prevent their units from being lost due to the fact that other players are wealthier and can afford buying evrything... So I find that quite great, even though it's not really realistic, as you said. Anything else?

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SlowwHand
Apr 09, 2001, 08:21 AM
The "not quite" aspects of each government is not really the biggest "flaw" that exists.
The concepts of each are pretty accurate.

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Hell-Raiser
Apr 09, 2001, 09:36 AM
I wonder what would happened if Russia Could be Able to have the Ideal Marx Communism!

IT would be more powerful than USA!
Image That! Russia Owns The world than!

Thunderfall
Apr 09, 2001, 11:47 AM
Originally posted by Fallen Angel Lord:
When your under a communism, there is no corruption. This doesn't add up. Now explain to me how a communism can not have any corruption.



China had little or no corruption when Mao was in charge.

GenghisK
Apr 10, 2001, 12:16 AM
China had little or no corruption when Mao was in charge.

Well I'd rather say that few people know that there is corruption, because generally these people don't live or survive long to tell you about ithttp://forums.civfanatics.com/ubb/smile.gif. And who would dare say the truth? Who?

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vladmir_illych_lenin
Apr 13, 2001, 10:02 PM
It's because the tyrants rule with an iron fist, not allowing any freedom to the citizens, so they shrink smaller and smaller into the pitiful lives they're not living!

Simon Darkshade
Apr 16, 2001, 09:15 AM
Corruption?
No, sorry Comrade Secretary, I do not know what this means.It must be a not word. I learn very very good from my 30 years reeducation in the peoples labour camp.
What corrupt magistrate do you speak of? He never existed, even though there was someone exactly like him in the hut next to me until they Penkovskied him...There is no corruption in our glorious socialist republic, LONG LIVE OUR SOVIET MOTHERLAND! (sorry the electo shock therapy does that to me sometime.. By the by, I heard our neighbours dog say some unpatriotic words yesterday....

This is why there is no corruption: The entire thought and life process is different in the brave new society of civ communism.
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Pedro
Apr 16, 2001, 09:26 AM
Rulers generally think the rules of the government type do not apply to them as they are *above* the system. So a communist leader actually doesn't behave like a good communist, but as a despot, pretending to fit in the communist system. It's exactly what's described in the book 'Animal Farm' written by George '1984' Orwell: First the animals in the book start their own government, without the tyranny of the farmer. Everyone is happy until the pigs start to take over. To keep everyone satisfied they compose the eleven (i think) commandments, but those commandments gradually change into multi-interpretable sentences like: All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.
It's a prefect metaphor of the communist system in Russia 70-60 years ago.

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SlowwHand
Apr 16, 2001, 10:32 AM
Originally posted by BlueMonday:
The theory is that because the state controls the economy then there can't be any corruption. However in real life...



The theory is that all of the population gets the same things, with no social classes to speak of.
Good in theory.



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Vrylakas
Apr 16, 2001, 01:14 PM
Originally posted by Simon Darkshade:
Corruption?
No, sorry Comrade Secretary, I do not know what this means.It must be a not word. I learn very very good from my 30 years reeducation in the peoples labour camp.
What corrupt magistrate do you speak of? He never existed, even though there was someone exactly like him in the hut next to me until they Penkovskied him...There is no corruption in our glorious socialist republic, LONG LIVE OUR SOVIET MOTHERLAND! (sorry the electo shock therapy does that to me sometime.. By the by, I heard our neighbours dog say some unpatriotic words yesterday....


I can't recall the author's full name just now, but in the 1960s somebody named Marek [...] in Gomulka's communist paradise of Poland wrote a great satirical short story about what the police and UB (secret police) did to fill their time since communism had eradicated crime... http://forums.civfanatics.com/ubb/lol.gif

First of all, I think Sid was dealing with political ideals rather than real representations of what exists in the real world.

Secondly, it really depends how you define corruption, bribe and crime. That was the farce of communist society (at least in Europe), that while petty crime did indeed plummet - street muggings, etc. - just getting through life with the basics required that you break the law and form illegal trading networks to get basic food, gas, etc. In this way everyone was constantly vulnerable to being arrested. The system had perverted the concept of crime and corruption so badly that these terms became meaningless.

However - ideological fervor was real among military personnel, especially in the heady 1950s. There were some defections, but how many for money? I recall a North Korean defector flying his Mig-15 to Japan after the Americans offered an award for just such a deal, but that was extremely rare. How many Soviet or Chinese communist units would willingly have switched sides for money? Czeslaw Milosz writes about the power communist ideology can have on young minds, especially in its early years. Perhaps to be more realistic, there could be a diminishing effect in Civ of this non-bribary stance for communist units?



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HIEROPHANT
Apr 16, 2001, 09:38 PM
communism in the game is what pure communism is but in real humans have greed for power so communism is bad in real life.

Archbob
Apr 16, 2001, 10:25 PM
I think in Civ3, sid should implant more realistic goverenments.

Az
Apr 17, 2001, 06:08 PM
ABSOLUTELY!

Actually, I think the most reallistic Govrnment is despotism!

Alcibiaties of Athenae
Apr 17, 2001, 10:09 PM
It should be changed to reflect lower production in Communism. There is no reason for people to work harder if there is no material reward.

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