Hi

I've been putting off starting a new vanilla SGOTM 05 for a couple of reasons ...

1. I was concerned that we would get a low sign-up if we ran it parallel with the current Warlords SGOTM 04.

2. I've been a tad busy :blush:

The question has been raised, though. So I thought I'd ask for some feedback on who would sign up for a new game - assuming the parameters were interesting - maybe to start in three weeks time.

Please vote so that we can gauge the level of interest. Constructive comments will, of course, be welcome.

Thanks for this too, Alan.
I've seen your comments to my request/question and i'm curious to see the results of this poll.

Of course i can be wrong, let's wait and see.

Thanks again, anyway :goodjob: .

I'm good to start whenever, as long as it starts after June 12th :D

Count me in if we get at least 5 other Russians.

I would like to play. I would need some understanding teammates, who would be able to stand my occasional lack of time.

How about a deity-level game? Sure, it would be hard, but if we could get some of the superstars to play, then I think the whole community would greatly benefit from the exercise. If each team had at least one deity-level player, then everyone would have a chance and everyone could learn a lot.

Who knows, we might even get some of the non-regular SGers (e.g., HOFers) to participate!!!

How about a deity-level game?

:eek: Well after this SGOTM at least the next one would be short(ish), if not sweet, for some of the teams.:lol:

Do we have any Deity level players who would be prepared to support teams of lower ability students?

I played Deity for HOF. But I think it's a bit too much for most teams.

I think most teams play less well than their best players. Only the very best and most committed teams play better than they can play individually. So I think even immortal-level SGOTM is really pushing it.

A deity game would be awesome even without the help of any deity level players. With the right map and victory conditions it can be really fun anyway.

I think most teams play less well than their best players. Only the very best and most committed teams play better than they can play individually. So I think even immortal-level SGOTM is really pushing it.

I agree.
I spend at least an hour in the mid-late game only to analyze the save before actually play my TS, but sometimes i made some mistake.
I think that Emperor is the Higher level playable in a SG, and with a favourable start.

A deity game would be awesome even without the help of any deity level players. With the right map and victory conditions it can be really fun anyway.

Same as above: a deity game with a map too (un)balanced in favour of the human it's not a true deity game, better a good start at emperor.

Anyway i think Monarch is the right level for a SG, and i'd probably like to have an esasier one for next SG.

Same as above: a deity game with a map too (un)balanced in favour of the human it's not a true deity game, better a good start at emperor.


The current Warlords succession game where the goal is to lose the space race as soon as possible is a good example of a victory condition where the difficulty level is secondary. If every team would have been allowed to select the difficulty level themselves I am sure some would have gone for deity...

There are countless variants that doesn't rely on a traditional victory to be fun. Say, "who can survive the longest against Monty, Isa, Alex on a crowded map with agressive AI turned on?" ;)

The current Warlords succession game where the goal is to lose the space race as soon as possible is a good example of a victory condition where the difficulty level is secondary. If every team would have been allowed to select the difficulty level themselves I am sure some would have gone for deity...


I think there is a very good idea here: Create an SGOTM where the teams can choose between multiple saves that are all identical except for the difficulty level! If the objective is diplomatic victory it's not a trivial task to pick the level that will allow the fastest victory. Would be interesting to see if LowtherCastle and his murky friends actually have the balls to choose Deity :D.

@jesusin: Good to see that you want to try the SGOTM :thumbsup:

Count me in if we get at least 5 other Russians.

I am in, let's rock :)

Would be interesting to see if LowtherCastle and his murky friends actually have the balls to choose Deity :D.And I wouldn't like to see the condition of your soggy pants for the 2 ensuing months after our graph has stopped moving... :cool:

EDIT: Btw, we've got 'em. Just give us the save...

I find that SGOTM takes up far less time than GOTm or HoF Gauntlets so I am happy to play another one whenever its ready. Playing Vanilla involves swapping disks, but I'm sure I can handle that.

I do like the idea that SGOTM is about innovative victory objectives and other such excitements that you don't get in a normal game.

Playing Vanilla involves swapping disks, but I'm sure I can handle that.

Game Jackal solves the disk swapping problem, for me. (Does that violate the board anti-piracy policy? I don't think so, since I still need the disk to install the game.)

... Would be interesting to see if LowtherCastle and his murky friends actually have the balls to choose Deity :D.
...

I have the balls, but I'm not sure I've got the brains! :D

I think most teams play less well than their best players. Only the very best and most committed teams play better than they can play individually. So I think even immortal-level SGOTM is really pushing it.For me the idea would be to push it--the envelope, that is. But not just that. Even more important, I think, is that many lower-level players could progress a lot faster if there were available records of how deity-level players think. An example of what I"m talking about is the CivIII QSC write-ups from SirPleb and others. Those are invaluable insights into how to approach the CivIII game at all, including the highest, difficulty levels. (In fact, for moves up to 1000BC, they're far better than SG threads...but whatever.)

The problem is, most players, top-level or otherwise, don't feel like keeping a detailed log of their decisions, and understandably so--it's drudgery. A good SGOTM thread can serve that purpose without feeling like drudgery. Whether a team plays better or worse than its best player, there will be plenty of give and take, contrasting and demonstrating more and less effective decisions.

But if pushing it is a serious concern, there could even be a special "Uncle!" rule, whereby when a team gets to a point where it feels lost, it can elect to call for help (thereby forfeiting its claim on any awards), and a rescue team of experts comes in to offer suggestions. ;) (Yeah, I know, now you're going to say that's drifting too far from the original intent of the SG...)

Just my 2 cents.

The current Warlords succession game where the goal is to lose the space race as soon as possible is a good example of a victory condition where the difficulty level is secondary. If every team would have been allowed to select the difficulty level themselves I am sure some would have gone for deity...

There are countless variants that doesn't rely on a traditional victory to be fun. Say, "who can survive the longest against Monty, Isa, Alex on a crowded map with agressive AI turned on?" ;)

Well since there's a few 2 cent pieces floating around, I'll add one.

I think in SGOTM's, the "out of the ordinary" nature of the game is a key - something that really adds a lot to the exercise and makes it really fun for me. The GOTM spoiler threads are an excellent source of tips on how to improve my personal game (if only I had the time to carefully analyse them and experiment myself!!) and one fine day when I don't have much else to do, I'm sure my own game will go forwards in leaps and bounds because I'll be able to go back over several particular GOTM's and internalise some important strategies and tips that other better-than-me players have used and written about in their spoilers.

I see SGOTM's as something else though. There are two key elements which make them attractive and fun for me. One is the turnset by turnset interaction with other team members, and learning from them. The other which I've already mentioned, is working out with them how to best succeed at a particular out-of-the ordinary goal or problem in the game. Something that makes "standard" strategies less important, and the ability to improvise and bend those strategies to a particular "freak" set of circumstances more important! Obviously the difficulty level IS important - I really don't think it becomes not important, but it's not the most important thing.

I know I wouldn't touch a deity game. I agree the SGs lower the game play level, and it is hard to keep a common game plan going.

Sign me up. Deity kicks my butt.

I'd play.

Deity is so luck dependent that it doesn't seem appropriate for (S)GOTM. Immortal gives almost all the challenge, rewards strategic thinking and still allows good comparisons between teams.

I think there is a very good idea here: Create an SGOTM where the teams can choose between multiple saves that are all identical except for the difficulty level! If the objective is diplomatic victory it's not a trivial task to pick the level that will allow the fastest victory. Looking at the HOF tables, there are a couple of VCs where this is conceivable. Probably would be advisable to consult with the HOF gurus to make sure the map layout afforded equal opportunities to all...

Personally, I think this would be a great SGOTM--a whole new conception of the "Challenger" version of GOTMs.

This discussion of a deity level SGOTM almost leads us to the issue of whether we need a "major league" and a "minor league" in the succession games. Deity seems to be inconsistent with the notion of newcomers to the SGOTM, particularly if rather new to Civ overall. On the other hand, there are top flight players who might enjoy teaming up in a deity level succession game. Not sure that we can accomodate both of these goals in a single game.

Nor am I sure how a major and minor league concept would be implemented, but let's see if the idea has traction. Maybe to enter the major league game a player must have competed in some number of SGOTM (two? three?) and have displayed an adequate level of reliable availability (who judges that, by what criteria?)? Or perhaps has some level of experience and skill in the GOTM/WOTM series? Or maybe most current players already fit that description, and these criteria are moot?

While I like playing with my established teamates on Gypsy Kings, it would also be interesting to occassionaly play on teams more randomly assembled, but from the veteran players. Just for a change of pace, and perhaps in tandem with a succession game involving the established teams.

Well, enough rambling with these unstructured thoughts ... does this resonate with anyone else?

dV

I think I would prefer to stay at Monarch and just continue with unusual and/or crazy scenarios.

It would be interesting to have entirely random teams once in awhile(although I obviously prefer to stay with my Geezer teammates).

However, I would play no matter what the level/scenario/team setup ended up being. I've never backed down from a challenge on Civ, although I often end up suffering greatly because of this lol.

Okay, if not deity, how about a game that lasts slightly less than an eternity?

what, you mean you don't like the modern ages, LowtherCastle? You know, you don't have to get into the modern ages in order to let Gandhi beat you if you really don't want to ;)

it would be interesting to occassionaly play on teams more randomly assembled, but from the veteran players.

dV
Abandoning a sinking Gyp....? :p

Abandoning a sinking Gyp....? :p Not at all, I'm going down with the Gyp if it comes to that. Just remember the full context of the quote.

It would just be nice, without one's loyalty being questioned as you just have, to have a vehicle for playing with (and learning from) other players, even including YOU! :love: :sarcasm: :lol:

dV

+1 for deity ;)

what, you mean you don't like the modern ages, LowtherCastle? You know, you don't have to get into the modern ages in order to let Gandhi beat you if you really don't want to ;)I was almost tempted to open up the Geezer thread to figure out what we were doing wrong... ;)

Well I am not yet sure, of the relative complexity of CIV4, but forever staying in monarch doesn't seem the right solution to me. I think after a while most team are quite capable of going one of the higher Diffs, while I really liked the idea of running 1 or 2 newbie teams, which could learn how to cope with the challenge. Of course that needs a players committed to teaching.

And I also think there is quite some space left between deity and Monarch which might be worthwhile to explore.

Deity is too much for most players, and monarch with the land of SG3 and SG4 (not to mention the winning conditions, especially of SG4) are raised difficulty games, so an emperor or immortal with perhaps a good land and "normal" conditions can be affordable.

As i already said, beeing a competition between teams, also a warlord difficulty can be interesting, if you have not only to win your game (easy) but win sooner or better than other teams to gain a laurel.

...
As i already said, beeing a competition between teams, also a warlord difficulty can be interesting, if you have not only to win your game (easy) but win sooner or better than other teams to gain a laurel.

Personally I don't find standard beat-the-clock games at Monarch and Emperor very rewarding, since the feedback is to weak. Immortal is less forgiving and the success/failure of my actions are more obvious. It's also easier to analyze for the team. I don't know if it's suitable for succession games though. :confused:

The number of replies here seems a bit low, but maybe it's sufficient. Has the decision been made as to whether or not to run another vanilla event?

Edit: I'll take that as a yes! :)