View Full Version : Is slavery essential ?


AnyKeyz
Jun 01, 2007, 04:53 PM
Since I started playing Civilisation 4, I never used slavery once. In every topic here, people says to whip. whipping decrease the population number by one, wouldn't it hurts ?

Why use slavery ?

SnowlyWhite
Jun 01, 2007, 04:57 PM
The math is 30 hammers for 1 pop. From there on, it's your common sense to use it or not... If the building/unit is needed fast, whip, if not, don't...

Strong points of the civ.:

- in war, where the captured cities are starving; whip some buildings, because those ppl. will die anyway...
- when you need units fast; declared or somethin' like that...
- when you want to make sure you get that wonder(rarely, since the conversion rate is worse).

I use it alot, but... depends on the situation, as anything in this game...

futurehermit
Jun 01, 2007, 05:10 PM
Once you understand how whipping works you can probably move up to at least prince level if you are not there already.

It's very powerful when used correctly.

Good idea to whip settlers and workers early on as they stunt city growth. Whip and regrow quickly working food specials.

Always a good idea to whip away unhappy citizens. They're not doing anything for you anyways except gripe :lol:

Rancid Sushi
Jun 01, 2007, 05:14 PM
Slavery is awesome. Especially if you find copper or iron very early. Just whip away and you can have 10 units ready to go destroy the nearest civ before 700 BC. Be sure to have a granary in the city first so the population regrows faster. The early game is all about expansion, not growth. conqering neighbors is more important than having big cities in the classical era. The ability to crank out units and buildings fast in the early game helps you in the long-run, so Slavery doesn't actually hurt in this stage. Later you can switch to Caste System or Emancipation depending on what type of economy you have.

DaveMcW
Jun 01, 2007, 05:15 PM
Let's say you have a size 2 city. It already has a Granary. You want to build a Barracks.

Method 1:
Work 2 mined grassland hills (0 net food, 6 net hammers) for 10 turns.

Method 2:
Work 2 farmed flooplains (6 net food, 0 net hammers) for 5 turns.
Grow to size 4.
Whip the barracks and shrink to size 2 again.

AnyKeyz
Jun 01, 2007, 05:21 PM
I am currently playing Noble, winning maybe 20% of the time.

I'll try to get familiar with slavery in tonight's game

I love the 'useless anyway unhappy people' point :P

obsolete
Jun 01, 2007, 05:34 PM
Well, even if you don't use the whip (often I didn't when going industrial), I used to switch to it anyway, because it was the cheapest civic to run. I honestly haven't checked the prices as of the latest version though. I know they often change one patch to the next....

BTW, whipping also comes with its penalities too. Have to balance it out of course.

GoodGame
Jun 01, 2007, 05:35 PM
Since I started playing Civilisation 4, I never used slavery once. In every topic here, people says to whip. whipping decrease the population number by one, wouldn't it hurts ?

Why use slavery ?

1. When you have ridiculously high food, and a horrible capacity to fight :mad:.

2. To ensure that you don't lose out in a critical wonder race.

3. When you just have way too much :mad: and are building a :D building (e.g. temple)

4. You are maintaining an arbitrary, low pop level per city (e.g. so low as to avoid needing happiness buildings), usually for like a Domination type win. Or in the case of Rome in the Rhye's scenario.

5. You're building something more crucial in the near term than the potential loss of a tile or two of production over the next 10 turns (your bet). (If it's a huge army that you're whipping you have to balance it out versus the tile commerce you're losing though, or risk a Strike).

manu-fan
Jun 01, 2007, 05:42 PM
I am currently playing Noble, winning maybe 20% of the time.

I'll try to get familiar with slavery in tonight's game

I love the 'useless anyway unhappy people' point :P

Especially after capturing a city. If you have Drama, as soon as it comes out of revolt, whip a Temple. It will give culture, happiness and going down by 2 pop is no big deal. Getting the city happy and generating culture is much more important.

Cheers.

InvisibleStalke
Jun 01, 2007, 05:56 PM
Especially after capturing a city. If you have Drama, as soon as it comes out of revolt, whip a Temple. It will give culture, happiness and going down by 2 pop is no big deal. Getting the city happy and generating culture is much more important.

Cheers.

I would whip a theatre instead - more culture and potentially more happiness.

But if you are running caste system (which is the most realistic alternative for the first half of the game) then you can pop your borders by running artists. You can even generate a lot of cash/science by starving your population and running every population point you can as a specialist. Its like whipping - the pop will go down - but you get a short boost in science or gold instead of production. Since you only starve one point a turn there is no point in any of your citizens working food tiles until the city can support itself.

Either way it works out. I'm appreciating caste system as an alternative to slavery more and more - and I absolutely love spiritual where I can use both.

SnowlyWhite
Jun 01, 2007, 06:28 PM
guess he was refferin' to theatre... drama = theatre, not temple

manu-fan
Jun 01, 2007, 07:00 PM
guess he was refferin' to theatre... drama = theatre, not temple

D'OH!! Yes - Theatre.

Cheers.

CapnKill
Jun 01, 2007, 07:23 PM
I love it .. it has saved my ass on a couple of occasions, when the Germans attacked me.. and that was fine but then then two more neighboring Civs attacked me also... without slavery, I would've been screwed.

And its just too funny to see the little unhappy person there... Arrghh!! we shall not forget the injustice you ha.. WHIP!!! .. everyone happy now :)

Bradlius
Jun 01, 2007, 07:32 PM
And its just too funny to see the little unhappy person there... Arrghh!! we shall not forget the injustice you ha.. WHIP!!! .. everyone happy now :)

Yeah, I wonder if they're really happy, or if they just stop complaining and get back to work so it doesn't happen to them!

Nacht
Jun 01, 2007, 10:06 PM
If you have Drama, as soon as it comes out of revolt...
You can whip immediately. It will come into effect directly when it comes out of revolt, you can even queue whips when still in revolt.

Dan Quale
Jun 01, 2007, 10:48 PM
Slavery can make a resource such as pigs,cow,corn,fish or wheat, and a settler into a millitary powerhouse, early game. I noticed that 30 hammers was stated as the value of one pop- not entirely true. Slavery works in multiples of 30 hammers, so in some instances 1 pop=60 hammers. This the case for drafting an axemen/swordsman/cat from said 2 pop city utilizing one of these resources, which then immediately regrows. In fact a single tiny food resource city can fuel your entire early axe rush, while the rest of your empire is better utilized for infastructure/wonders/expansion.

DaviddesJ
Jun 01, 2007, 10:58 PM
Not "essential" --- see RB27 which is immortal win with no civic changes.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=192576

ainwood
Jun 01, 2007, 11:05 PM
Yeah - I agree. Its not essential - I rarely use slavery, and can beat immortal. Doubt I could with no civics changes though!

futurehermit
Jun 02, 2007, 09:11 AM
Definitely not essential, but once you master bronzeworking:

1) Chop-rushing

2) Pop-rushing

3) Axe-rushing

You should definitely be better off than 20% wins at noble level :)

Morgrad
Jun 02, 2007, 01:06 PM
Even if you aren't going to use it much, having the *option* to whip out needed defensive units can be very nice. Even if you're going for as big a city as you can support early on - eventually it will grow to unhappiness - and that grumpy citizen is just hammers wasted if you don't whip him into something useful.

Regardless of what victory condition you're going for, the whip is very effective short-term losses for long-term gains. Whip a library in a city that would take 30 turns to build it, to make the math easy, let's say it's producing 10 beakers - position the citizens so you're still getting 10 beakers base, +2.5 per turn for 30 turns - the whip just gained you 75 beakers you otherwise wouldn't have *and* 29 turns of building something else with that city!

As with *everything* in Civ, it's a trade-off - but slavery (which as a game mechanic is simply a mechanism to convert food into hammers) is often a very useful tool.

UncleJJ
Jun 02, 2007, 03:34 PM
All the reasons given above and the fact it can make a "fishing village" into a production powerhouse in the early game. In many games I get at least one city (often in the arctic or on an island) that has say 2 good seafood tiles but no hammers apart from the 1 from the city tile and no useful land tiles for cottages either. Getting +8 food and 1 hammer with a size 3 city is great with slavery as soon as the granary and lighthouse are built. You could use the food surplus to run specialists (but the GP farm will outproduce any GPPs) so I usually turn it into a whipping / drafting city.

futurehermit
Jun 02, 2007, 04:23 PM
^^It can probably produce 1 GS before being turned into a whipping factory though...

Soneji
Jun 02, 2007, 04:52 PM
Slavery is awesome. Especially if you find copper or iron very early. Just whip away and you can have 10 units ready to go destroy the nearest civ before 700 BC. Be sure to have a granary in the city first so the population regrows faster. The early game is all about expansion, not growth. conqering neighbors is more important than having big cities in the classical era. The ability to crank out units and buildings fast in the early game helps you in the long-run, so Slavery doesn't actually hurt in this stage. Later you can switch to Caste System or Emancipation depending on what type of economy you have.


Thanks that makes sense. I've seen the AI in that era with a Capital populous of 3, while I had 9. Was laughing my ass off until 1000 years later... :cry:

rabidveggie
Jun 02, 2007, 05:17 PM
No its not essential in most cases. I've only had really one or two instances where I've had to whip to survive. One when my city had no hills, but a lot of resources, I believe it was 5 fish and crabs. Iron later appeared in the limit so it lost some of its potency. The only other time I can think of was to get some production out of a angry city. I still use it when I'm in a pinch and its a nice thing to have but you can still do well without it.

Tonifranz
Jun 02, 2007, 07:31 PM
Not essential.

But extremely convenient to have.

AnyKeyz
Jun 02, 2007, 09:38 PM
Many thanks
Despite all these good reasons, can't whip. It's against my nature :D
I will try it soon ;)

Bradlius
Jun 04, 2007, 05:47 PM
Many thanks
Despite all these good reasons, can't whip. It's against my nature :D
I will try it soon ;)

If it helps, play as a despotic leader -- it just feels better. Whipping when you're Ghandi just feels wrong.

CapnKill
Jun 04, 2007, 06:02 PM
If it helps, play as a despotic leader -- it just feels better. Whipping when you're Ghandi just feels wrong.

So does Ghandi's quote .. . something like "Woo Hoo I have Artillery now!" :D

I think Slavery is kinda addictive... I mean.. the whole I want it now thing really is nice :) Question is, when do you stop using it?

JackOfClubs
Jun 04, 2007, 07:04 PM
Question is, when do you stop using it?
Several possible milestones:

1. When you get Caste System if running SE.

2. When you have enough control over happiness that you no longer need to whip non-working citizens. (Usually after you get Drama, have enough cities that you have an abundance of luxuries and/or have multiple happiness buildings.)

3. When someone beats you to Emancipation and you don't have 1 or 2 available as options.

VoiceOfUnreason
Jun 04, 2007, 10:31 PM
Question is, when do you stop using it?

When they finally nerf it by excluding whip hammers from production bonuses.

obsolete
Jun 05, 2007, 05:26 AM
when do you stop using it?

When your builds become too expensive...

futurehermit
Jun 05, 2007, 08:28 AM
When growing your cities to work tiles provides greater benefit than whipped hammers.

xanadux
Jun 05, 2007, 10:02 AM
The whip is extremely powerful when developing a high food/low production city such as many commerce cities. I've had cities before with only a couple of hammers, but lots of food and either cottages or specialists. With a big enough food surplus, even whipping 4 or 5 pop for a university doesn't slow you down much.

Florian
Jun 05, 2007, 01:18 PM
Capnkill,

Ghandi's quote .. . something like "Woo Hoo I have Artillery now!"

"Now I have an Artillery, ho ho ho!"

All the leaders say that. It's a reference to the first Diehard movie. When Bruce Willis kills the first terrorist with his service revolver, and loots the guy's submachine gun, he sends the body down to the other terrorists in the elevator, dressed in a Santa suit, with a sign on its chest that reads, "Now I have a machine gun, ho ho ho!"

"I studied on killin' you" is also a movie reference. It's from Slingblade. Billy Bob Thornton says it to his abusive father. "I studied on killin' you, mmmhmm. Studied on it quite a bit. But I reckon there ain't no need for it if all you're gonna do is sit there in that chair. You'll be dead soon enough and the world'll be shut of ya."

This is horribly off-topic of course, but has anyone else identified any movie quotes in the game?

ParadigmShifter
Jun 05, 2007, 06:25 PM
Brennus said "May you live long and prosper" once to me but that's from a TV show some bloke called Leonard was in I think.

PimpyMicPimp
Jun 06, 2007, 04:32 AM
I just used it today...I love it! It may go against my values, but damn slavery is fun!

Florian
Jun 06, 2007, 10:56 AM
Ah yes, "Live long and prosper" is another one.

As to the actual subject of this thread, it surprises me that some people are saying Slavery is _not_ essential. I'm not challenging these people, because I'm sure they're better than I am, but I just got over my moral scruples and started using it, and it's made a HUGE difference to my game. At the moment, I can't imagine trying to play up a level (or even win consistently at my current level, which is only Prince) without using it. And happiness caps only get more restrictive as you go up, right? Mysterious.

GoodGame
Jun 06, 2007, 11:29 AM
Figure that slavery is a gamble. If you whip a large army that you use to take enemy cities whose value offsets the anger in your original cities, then the gamble paid well.

The anti-slavery idea is that the anger reduces growth, and growth is good. To a farm economy / specialist economy, growth is very good. Some would rather live with the anger of overpopulation, solve it, and then reap the 'instant' pop growth.

It's something to weigh. Can you solve the unhappiness quickly without whipping, or is it that something that you can whip is a better solution.

Ah yes, "Live long and prosper" is another one.

As to the actual subject of this thread, it surprises me that some people are saying Slavery is _not_ essential. I'm not challenging these people, because I'm sure they're better than I am, but I just got over my moral scruples and started using it, and it's made a HUGE difference to my game. At the moment, I can't imagine trying to play up a level (or even win consistently at my current level, which is only Prince) without using it. And happiness caps only get more restrictive as you go up, right? Mysterious.

Florian
Jun 06, 2007, 01:20 PM
Some would rather live with the anger of overpopulation, solve it, and then reap the 'instant' pop growth

Okay, but you aren't growing in the mean time. If you're faced with a choice between 10 more turns of near-zero growth to build a happiness structure, and 10 turns to grow _back_ the people (at a fast rate) you just whipped away to _build_ that happiness structure (during which time you can be slowly building another one), it seems an easy choice to me.

SilverTab
Jun 06, 2007, 02:08 PM
2) Pop-rushing

3) Axe-rushing


What's pop-rushing and axe-rushing?

Florian
Jun 06, 2007, 04:58 PM
SilverTab,

Pop Rushing is spending population to rush production, by employing slavery.

Axe Rushing is getting a bunch of Axemen as quickly as you can and attacking someone with them early.

Michelangelo
Jun 07, 2007, 06:37 AM
It also works best when your whipped city is still small. Takes less time to regrow. My rule of thumb is: whip when size 6 at maximum.

madscientist
Jun 07, 2007, 07:41 AM
I play Marathon/huge maps on Prince in Warlords. Monty is the king of the whip providing you can get Code of laws very early (If I have marble within the border of my first 3 cities I'll shoot for the oracle). Only 15 turns of unhappiness once you have a sacrificial alter built at this point it is great to start warmongering as much as you want. Take cities, whip an alter in them, proceed to whip theaters, graneries, lighthouses (barracks are fast production so I do not whip them). He is the fastest at getting conquered cities quickly productive with minimal unhappiness. Even better if you followup conquered cities with a missionary for your founded state religion (Buddhism, Hinduism, or confusionism with a shrine).