The Domestic Leader is the Provincial Governor of the 1st province (the Capital Province). This is done for ease in game startup. Eyrei's explanation appears a few posts down from this one and was confirmed by the Duke of Marlbrough as being correct.

Is this still necessary or desired?

This topic has been debated in this thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22492&perpage=20&pagenumber=1).

EDIT: Removed Eyrei's quote from this post.

unbelievable....

Shaitan, I do not believe any points of view should be put into the first post of the poll. Or in any of the votes. Eyrei's explanation belongs in another post further down, with the rest of the Citizens's opinions. Especially the bit about the "floundering". You may see it as the original reasoning, but many might not.

Originally posted by chiefpaco
Shaitan, I do not believe any points of view should be put into the first post of the poll. Or in any of the votes. Eyrei's explanation belongs in another post further down, with the rest of the Citizens's opinions. Especially the bit about the "floundering". You may see it as the original reasoning, but many might not.
I generally agree with that. In this case, Eyrei's quote with the Duke's confirmation is the only explanation we have for the current policy. I will edit it to clarify that Eyrei was talking about the beginning of the game and we are dealing with the current situation.

EDIT: Actually, I'll do exactly what chiefpaco suggested ;)

I think it should be an elected position, like the other provences, but the Domestic Min. should have the final say if there's any disputes. (i.e., in a turn chat, if the mil. dept.'s suggestion conflicts with, say the Province of Ameri, and there's a vote), or, if there's changing circumstances. For example, the capital provence might be building habors and libraries (in queue), but an unforseen event, such as an invasion, would have to override those plans, or maybe delay them.

Originally posted by Cyc
unbelievable....
25% of the voting populace contributed to developing this poll.

This is my summary of the reasons why we have the current system:

While the country is still small, it is quite possible and more efficient for one person to control all of the domestic department responsibilities as well as the build queues. If you had a domestic leader and a governor of all of the cities, who disagreed on everything, the expansion of the empire would flounder. It also allows the domestic leader to lead by example for the other governors as the game progresses. Further, as the domestic department is in charge of wonder building, it gives the department choice cities to build wonders.

Originally posted by Shaitan

I generally agree with that. In this case, Eyrei's quote with the Duke's confirmation is the only explanation we have for the current policy. I will edit it to clarify that Eyrei was talking about the beginning of the game and we are dealing with the current situation.

EDIT: Actually, I'll do exactly what chiefpaco suggested ;)

Fair polls with unbiased 1st posts should be standard. I propose it at least as an informal rule.

Originally posted by chiefpaco
Fair polls with unbiased 1st posts should be standard. I propose it at least as an informal rule.
I'm pretty sure that everybody who posts polls is already trying to accomplish this.

I don't think a poll should have specific quotes about the issue being voted on. They should be as impartial as possible and just contain a link to the discussion thread with some basic info.

I think the Domestic Leader should be the Governor of the first province, but I also think that the Deputy Domestic Leader should not apply to the governorship directly. IIRC, there are already proceedures in place in case a province does not have current build queues.

So, I think option 1, but with slightly clarified roles of the Deputy Domestic Leader. (Edit: Which would be the topic of the next possible poll. ;))

Argh! So much for taking the time to explore alternative options such as the one postulated by Zur (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22492&perpage=20&pagenumber=4). I'd very much hoped you'd post the other poll first, so as to clear up what the current situation is before deciding on whether we want to change it or not. I think we should have waited until discussion had produced a fairly stable set of options for voting on.

EDIT: Now I'm faced with either having to vote on something which I don't yet feel decided upon, since the details of what I saw as a potentially viable solution have not been worked out. I don't feel I can choose either of the poll's stated options, because I think a third one MIGHT be better... but since this 3rd idea has not yet been developed I don't know if I agree with it either, so voting "other" is out. And abstaining implies that I'm not concerned with this issue, which is emphatically not the case. This really was premature, Shaitan. :nono:

Originally posted by Eklektikos
Argh! So much for taking the time to explore alternative options such as the one postulated by Zur (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22492&perpage=20&pagenumber=4). I'd very much hoped you'd post the other poll first, so as to clear up what the current situation is before deciding on whether we want to change it or not. I think we should have waited until discussion had produced a fairly stable set of options for voting on.

That option is moot, as the game is well underway. If you feel that the time for that change is not yet upon us, then that can be decided at that time in the future. I had assumed that he was referring to something that should have already happened. Of course, I could be wrong.

Originally posted by Eklektikos
Argh! So much for taking the time to explore alternative options such as the one postulated by Zur (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22492&perpage=20&pagenumber=4). I'd very much hoped you'd post the other poll first, so as to clear up what the current situation is before deciding on whether we want to change it or not. I think we should have waited until discussion had produced a fairly stable set of options for voting on.
Zur's idea would affect a new Demo game, not this one. I agree that it should be adressed but it's subordinate to this one. Background: Zur suggested that the Domestic Dept govern the Capital for a certain amount of time then pass the province over for gubernatorial elections.

The other poll is to determine if the Domestic Deputy inherits gubernatorial powers along with Domestic powers when filling in for an absent Leader. As that poll would be nullified by certain results of this poll it is also subordinate and must follow.

No matter how this poll turns out both of the other issues will be addressed, if only to perfect the Constitution for the next Demo game.

Originally posted by Eklektikos
EDIT: Now I'm faced with either having to vote on something which I don't yet feel decided upon, since the details of what I saw as a potentially viable solution have not been worked out. I don't feel I can choose either of the poll's stated options, because I think a third one MIGHT be better... but since this 3rd idea has not yet been developed I don't know if I agree with it either, so voting "other" is out. And abstaining implies that I'm not concerned with this issue, which is emphatically not the case. This really was premature, Shaitan. :nono:
There's no 3rd option that I can see. Either the Domestic Department governs the Capital Province or it does not. This poll is for right here, right now. It doesn't address issues of a new game - we'll do that later.

unbelievable....

Originally posted by Cyc
unbelievable....

I believe he heard you the first time. This topic has been up for discussion for over 24 hours. There is nothing unbelievable about a poll being posted. We cannot halt the entire government process every time someone has a new idea. I apologize to Zur, as it was not a bad idea, only it would have been an excellent idea at the outset. That option and option number 2 are essentially the same. Both call for the election of another governor to take over the capital province. All the addition of another option would do is prolong this nearly washed out and inflammatory discussion and skew the poll results.

I just felt that since we had a healthy and increasingly constructive discussion of the possibilities going that it would have been possible to settle the whole issue for all time in one neat poll without the slightly dubious "other (please explain)" category being needed at all. Sure, future games are not a burning issue but it would have been nice to get it set down in stone while we were on the subject.

Zurs idea is a viable one, but if you follow the thinking through, it doesn't need to be discussed further for this poll. It is basically a 'we should have done' idea. It can't be implemented in the fashion he is saying since we have already pasted that point.

If you like the idea, then you vote option 2, if you think it should stay as it, you vote option 1. We can't go back and say that the governorship should have been split in the past, we can only change how it is handled in the future.

If you want to work out the details of it for future games, then there is still plently of time to do so before the next one starts.


Edit: I can't spell right when I'm trying to hurry (and sometimes when I'm going slow also ;)).

Eyrei: I apologize to Zur, as it was not a bad idea, only it would have been an excellent idea at the outset.

There is no need to apologize to me since Shaitan had already clarified that this would affect a new game but not the current one.

However, this confusion could have been avoided if Shaitan had mentioned something about it in the 1st post or even in the thread to which the 1st post was linked to, to avoid any further accusations of "rail-roading". If Shaitan had not clarified it above, then my first impression would have been that "rail-roading" was happening.

Originally posted by Zur


There is no need to apologize to me since Shaitan had already clarified that this would affect a new game but not the current one.

However, this confusion could have been avoided if Shaitan had mentioned something about it in the 1st post or even in the thread to which the 1st post was linked to, to avoid any further accusations of "rail-roading". If Shaitan had not clarified it above, then my first impression would have been that "rail-roading" was happening.
Sorry about that. In my own twisted little mind it was a separate issue and I didn't think of explaining why.

Shai, no need to apologize either since you have already clarified that! ;)

Just give a little bit more thought before you post a poll. :)

Originally posted by eyrei
I believe he heard you the first time. This topic has been up for discussion for over 24 hours. There is nothing unbelievable about a poll being posted. We cannot halt the entire government process every time someone has a new idea.

Eyrei I think you owe Cyc an apology. This topic has NOT been up for discussion for over 24 hours.

On May 13, 2002 at 1:36 pm (GMT - more like 7:30 am east coast USA time) we started discussing the build queue in Eyr in the Istar province thread. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=21032&perpage=20&pagenumber=1)

On May 14, 2002 at 4:04 pm GMT Eklektikos first asked why the domestic leader was the governor of the first province. the debate had moved to the poll about what a deputy should do. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22492&perpage=20&pagenumber=3)

This poll was started on May 14, 2002 at 6:40 pm GMT.

Eyrei, you made your claim on May 14, 2002 at 8:03 GMT - not even four hours after this subject was first raised.

One person asks a question and four hours later we're voting in a poll about it. Is it any wonder that Cyc talks about railroading!

I would like to point out one more thing. We had a discussion going on in the Istar thread. That discussion ended when Shaitan posted the poll about what a deputy should do. It has been 30 hours since Shaitan posted the link to the deputy poll in the Istar thread there has not been another post in the Istar thread.

The debate moved to the deputy poll thread and was transformed by the poll itself. The discussion there ended about six hours ago when Shaitan posted the link to this poll.

This rush to post polls has altered and escalted the original discussion way out of proportion. This may not be 'railroading' or a 'government conspiracy' but it is neither fair nor productive either.

You raised some good points Donsig. Polls do seem to end a thread and move the focus to the new thread. That was my intent from the Istar thread. Reread the last couple posts there and I think you'll agree that the discussion was not being constructive. I certainly didn't want to take the focus off of the deputy poll thread. As I posted there, this poll only addresses one of the 4 items we had identified there.

I don't think the polls have rushed or escalated anything. On the contrary I think they've concentrated attention and helped define the problems.

I do encourage everybody who reads this to return to the Deputy Poll to continue the discussion and debate in that thread as the issues are important and very much need resolution.

Originally posted by donsig
.... but it is neither fair nor productive either.

It does seem like these issues are being to a poll rather quickly, but regardless of that I would not go as far as to say that these threads have not been productive.

This discussion has come a long way since it started in the Istar Thread.

I can see how this poll might be valid if the thinking is that the 'discussion' was in the last poll thread. However, (after re-reading the thread) I think that entire discussion simply led to the underlying issues and needed a new discussion thread (or a continuation of the old one).

It does seem that there is a simple issue being raised and that there would be no real discussion that brings up other ideas, but we cannot by-pass the proceedures that are already in place. Even if it means opening a discussion thread and it sitting with no replies for a day before the poll is posted, that is what is required.

So, unless someone can explain to me otherwise why I shoudn't do so, I am (for the time being) closing the poll and declaring this a discussion thread, not a poll thread until I can determine if established criteria exist for poll creation. [edit: I also removed the vote counts, but have them written down] [I see nothing in the constitution that defines a set time must pass before a discussion is done and a poll is made. Am I missing it, or is this an 'unofficial' policy?]

I believe you did the right thing in closing this poll Duke. Too many things are being pushed on the people in the form of polls without the true intent or meaning of the issue being known. A prime example of of this (without the poll) would be the Constitutional Amendment. We need to slow these things down.

As far as unofficial policy goes, we have no policy. I have been trying to get standards established for polling before the elections. What is the problem with setting standards. They are not lepers, we can create them and use them and talk about them. Why must we avoid them? Can't we address this situation and resolve the problem?

Can someone start a discussion thread on this topic then? It does seem that everything else has a policy or proceedure in this game, but something as core of an element as polls does not?

I think that once standards are set for polls, we can avoid any issues of railroading and the like.

OK. Let me work on the wording...

Originally posted by Duke of Marlbrough
Can someone start a discussion thread on this topic then? It does seem that everything else has a policy or proceedure in this game, but something as core of an element as polls does not?

I think that once standards are set for polls, we can avoid any issues of railroading and the like.

We recently elected two at-large council members who are in the cabinet to see that the citizens' views are properly keep before the eyes and ears of the government. I suggest that it is with in their sphere of influence to start such a thread and/or to suggest standards for polls. Heck, it may even be their job to post opinion polls on issues.

I think that closing the poll was presumtive as there are no requirements for discussion prior to a poll. How can there be when there can be a poll about anything? No rule set can cover every circumstance. This particular poll is valid as it stands. It is simple yes/no opinion poll. Extensive discussion is not required to get feedback from the citizenry. Polls give the pulse of the nation at a speed that cannot be matched by any other method. People will vote in a poll when they would not take the trouble to write an opinion. Restricting polls is wrong. Period.

We have a 2 day time frame for making decisions. How long must a discussion last before a poll is placed? How long must a poll last? If as little as a day is required for these two criteria then polls can never be used to get citizen feedback for game events.

Back to this specific poll. Unless somebody can give a reason why this specific poll is biased or unfair to the point that it is invalid it should be reopened immediately.

Originally posted by Cyc
I believe you did the right thing in closing this poll Duke. Too many things are being pushed on the people in the form of polls without the true intent or meaning of the issue being known. A prime example of of this (without the poll) would be the Constitutional Amendment. We need to slow these things down
Quite frankly, you're beginning to sicken me.

The Constitutional Amendment is comprised of individual items that have already met with public approval through discussion and polls. It is also a PROPOSAL in a DISCUSSION THREAD for CITIZEN FEEDBACK. Exactly how is taking the extra step of compiling these changes for a final approval an example of pushing things on the people? How is offering an extra chance for citizen response rushing things?

Originally posted by Shaitan
Back to this specific poll. Unless somebody can give a reason why this specific poll is biased or unfair to the point that it is invalid it should be reopened immediately.

Agreed. We cannot have possible future change affect current happenings. It was originally closed because of a PM I received that stated that the manner in which they were being held was against the constitution. I see that is not the case and have opened the poll with its original values.

On the point of timleness of polls. I would think that either the turns need to be spaced farther apart, or people should just reside themselves with the fact that policy may not change by the next turn.

Originally posted by Duke of Marlbrough


Agreed. We cannot have possible future change affect current happenings. It was originally closed because of a PM I received that stated that the manner in which they were being held was against the constitution. I see that is not the case and have opened the poll with its original values.

On the point of timleness of polls. I would think that either the turns need to be spaced farther apart, or people should just reside themselves with the fact that policy may not change by the next turn.
Thank you for reopening the poll. I'd start a new one to see who the majority of people think sent that email but I can pretty much estimate the results already.

Originally posted by Shaitan
Thank you for reopening the poll. I'd start a new one to see who the majority of people think sent that email but I can pretty much estimate the results already.

I can tell you right now that it is no one who has actually posted in this thread. But, that's as far as its going.

BTW, if you did, I might have to close it and give you warning. ;) :nono:

Originally posted by donsig


We recently elected two at-large council members who are in the cabinet to see that the citizens' views are properly keep before the eyes and ears of the government. I suggest that it is with in their sphere of influence to start such a thread and/or to suggest standards for polls. Heck, it may even be their job to post opinion polls on issues.

Unfortunately Donsig, myself and Chiefpaco cannot be everywhere at once. I do work, I do go to school, I don't have the luxury of hearing these discussions all day. I try my best, I do what I can, if thats not good enough for you, I don't know what else to say. If I had known about this before it exploded, I probably would have done exactly what you suggested, but I didn't, this is the first I have seen about it. The conversations are resolved and polls are put up so quickly, (not that I'm knocking you for you hard work Shaitan) I often don't even see the discussion until after the poll has already been posted. I apologize if Im not working fast enough for you.

Originally posted by Immortal

Unfortunately Donsig, myself and Chiefpaco cannot be everywhere at once. I do work, I do go to school, I don't have the luxury of hearing these discussions all day. I try my best, I do what I can, if thats not good enough for you, I don't know what else to say... I apologize if Im not working fast enough for you.

When the (bleep) did I say you and Chiefpaco weren't doing a good enough job for me???
Geez, the Duke suggested someone start a thread about standards for polls I suggested that this might be within the jurisdiction of our at-large council members. Why you took my remarks as criticism I do not understand for none was intended.

I don't see the CouncilMembers purpose here for 2 reasons, but I will speak for myself here:

1) We are not compiling a show of support for the purpose of a cabinet vote.

2) We are NOT here to settle squables between cabinet officials.

To tell you the truth, I am getting sick of it. I propose a new sub-forum be placed for our cabinet to have their issues out. This is the "Citizens" forum, but I see very very few citizens post here. Do not drag me into this.

Originally posted by Duke of Marlbrough
Can someone start a discussion thread on this topic then? It does seem that everything else has a policy or proceedure in this game, but something as core of an element as polls does not?

I think that once standards are set for polls, we can avoid any issues of railroading and the like.

Chiefpaco, I replied to this post by the Duke suggesting that you and Immortal might be the appropriate ones to begin the discussion on poll standards.

I was not attempting to drag you into 'this'.

Shaitan, in response to your first remark, I really don't care if your sick or not. If you want to be sick, be sick.

Your questions were how are taking extra steps or offering extra chances for citizen approval were rushing things.

You posted that document very early in the morning (I don't have the exact time) without knowing what was in it. When I READ it I knew it was wrong and after I settled down (as you had twisted the poll results to a political gain) I went back and withdrew my support as Chat Rep for the Cultural Dept. You then came right back at quoted YOUR constitutional Amendment to me telling me that a Chat Rep had all the powers of a leader in the chat except for voting in a spot vote. So here not only have you posted an erroneous amendment to the Constitution, but came flying back to my post quoting it. You didn't know what you were doing....
If you had slowed down and read your document, maybe double checked your work, you wouldn't have made such a dumb mistake. That's just one example there have been many. This poll is one. NOW, go throw up for me.

Cyc - As I've already explained in the Amendment Proposal thread I made an editing error/omission. I even thanked you for your sarcastic and vitriolic assistance in pointing out the error. The amendment had been edited several times. I went over it for grammar, spelling, content and formatting. I missed that one item at the start and after rereading my error several times it stuck in my head. If I had not posted the thread for citizen feedback and comments on the amendment, that error would not have been found.
Originally posted by Cyc
Your questions were how are taking extra steps or offering extra chances for citizen approval were rushing things.
You have not answered this question. This is understandable as you don't have an answer for this question.
Originally posted by Cyc
NOW, go throw up for me.
:vomit:

Originally posted by Duke of Marlbrough
BTW, if you did, I might have to close it and give you warning. ;) :nono:
I know you would have Duke, and you would have been right to do it. I'm mad but not yet crazy. ;)

Originally posted by chiefpaco
This is the "Citizens" forum, but I see very very few citizens post here.
This statement got me thinking.

First, everybody is a citizen.
Second, are there any citizens without an elected or appointed position? We've got less than 25 active citizens. Between 8 council members, 6 deputies, Pres & VP, chat reps and governors and even mayors, there's not many "regular folk" left (if any).

Originally posted by Cyc
I believe you did the right thing in closing this poll Duke. Too many things are being pushed on the people in the form of polls without the true intent or meaning of the issue being known. A prime example of of this (without the poll) would be the Constitutional Amendment. We need to slow these things down.



You seem to have little faith in the reason of your fellow citizens. I am not sure how you can harm people by asking them to vote. I sometimes get the impression that you fear polls, as they rarely give you the result you want.

There was nothing confusing about the issue of this poll. The question is very simple. Let the people decide.

Originally posted by eyrei


You seem to have little faith in the reason of your fellow citizens. I am not sure how you can harm people by asking them to vote. I sometimes get the impression that you fear polls, as they rarely give you the result you want.

There was nothing confusing about the issue of this poll. The question is very simple. Let the people decide.

The confusion eyrei is how we reached the point where we needed this poll, needed it so fast and what it is that this poll is supposed to 'fix' or clarify.

What do we do once the people have decided?

Originally posted by donsig
What do we do once the people have decided?
The next step will be a poll to determine if the Domestic Deputy inherits governance of the Capital Province along with the other titles of the Domestic Leader.

Originally posted by Shaitan

The next step will be a poll to determine if the Domestic Deputy inherits governance of the Capital Province along with the other titles of the Domestic Leader.

Shaitan does this presume that the option "The Domestic Department (current system)" 'wins' this poll?

If you'll indulge me a little further, what's the next step after the next poll? Presumably that poll will be a yes/no/abstain poll (with no 'other' option) so there's really only two possible outcomes to address. Are we talking about more constitutional amendments or polls?

I'm just wondering where the end of this is...

Originally posted by donsig


Shaitan does this presume that the option "The Domestic Department (current system)" 'wins' this poll?

If you'll indulge me a little further, what's the next step after the next poll? Presumably that poll will be a yes/no/abstain poll (with no 'other' option) so there's really only two possible outcomes to address. Are we talking about more constitutional amendments or polls?

I'm just wondering where the end of this is...
I think I'll need a flow chart to show how all this comes together! :lol:

Yes, depending on poll results there would be more changes to the constitution.

A flow chart isn't a bad idea actually...I'll see if I can whip one up later today.

Should this results of this poll be that a new governor should be elected to control the capital province, it will require a constitutional change, and thus a cabinet vote. If the results are that the domestic department should continue to govern the capital province, then a poll will be held to determine if the domestic deputy is also the deputy governor of the first province.

When is this poll set to close?

Originally posted by donsig
When is this poll set to close?

In about 24 hours.

Donsig, here's what I came up with for the flow of these discussions/polls/amendments/clarifications. Pardon the uglitude as it was done in Word without the graphics pack. The first connector (circle) should be a splitter but there's no autoshape for a splitter in Word and my freehand is horrific.

EDIT: Made the splitter black.

... the people have spoken...

Now we need another poll, or do we need discussion and a then a poll?

I think we had a decent amount of discussion on the "Is the Dom Deputy also the Deputy Governor" in the Deputy Duties poll. If anyone feels differently, please start a discussion thread and put a link in this thread and in the Deputy Duties poll thread. If nobody has started a new discussion in 12 hours or so I'll go ahead and put up the next poll.

We will need a poll for the "Will the Cap Province ALWAYS be under the Domestic Department?" question. I'll take care of that tomorrow if nobody else has first. Once again, if somebody starts this poll, please put a link in this thread and in the Deputy Duties poll thread.

"Deputy Duties"...sounds like an old Warner Brothers cartoon... :D

A poll has been started regarding the gubernatorial duties of the Domestic Deputy. The poll may be found here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22708).

A poll has been started to determine if the Domestic Department will ALWAYS govern the Capital Province. LINK (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22710)

The flowchart worked and we got through it with only 1 required action - clarification on Domestic Deputy gubernatorial status.