Team BABE has met us, somehow.
This occured after our Turn 97 and on their Turn 98.
The only ships around our land was a barbarian boat off to the NW. It is visible in the Turn 97 ZoomOut, but the Turn 97 NW images.

I have PMed aluka, and will shortly inform The Council of this event.

Hello People of Free,

Recently our house of light has opened a window to you. We would like to discuss our future together in this Meleetian water paradise. Let us know when you may have time to have a conversation either by email or IM.
Your envoy Adrianna Lima has written a song about how much she's fallen in love with your people already. Enjoy.

XXOO
The Babes

http://static.flickr.com/51/119014406_98882b87cb.jpg
Shes a good girl, loves her mama
Loves Meleet and Babes too
Shes a good girl, crazy bout elvis
Loves horses and needs a boyfriend too

Its a long day living on the beach-a
Theres a freeway runnin through the yard
And Im a bad girl cause I dont even miss them
Im a bad girl for breakin Wotan's heart

And Im want to meet Free, I'm Free fallin
Yeah Im want to meet Free, I'm Free fallin

All the vampires walkin through the valley
Move west down ventura boulevard
And all the bad boys are standing in the shadows
All the good girls are home with broken hearts

And Im want to meet Free, I'm Free fallin
Yeah Im want to meet Free, I'm Free fallin
Free fallin, now Im Free fallin, now im
Free fallin, now Im Free fallin, now im

I wanna glide down over mulholland
I wanna write their name in the sky
Gonna Free fall out into nothin
Gonna leave this world for a while

And Im want to meet Free, I'm Free fallin
Yeah Im want to meet Free, I'm Free fallin

LOL! Very appropriate re-versed song!

Whats the tune? I didn't recognize it.

Ok I'm around if anything in particular needs to be done inform me. I'll write a reply to team BABE later today. Anything in particular you want me to say?

(CommandoBob: I haven't received your PM can you send it again?)

Ok I'm around if anything in particular needs to be done inform me. I'll write a reply to team BABE later today. Anything in particular you want me to say?

(CommandoBob: I haven't received your PM can you send it again?)
I cannot find the PM in my Sent folder even though I rememer writing it. :confused: Sorry.

As for what to tell Babe/BABE, hmm. (thinks out loud and on-line) Well, Hi, Howarya, for sure. Some blustery prose about being glad to meet them and are the stories they have written about the Great Lighthouse true. Could always create a new story about it. Could re-verse Baby, Baby by Amy Grant to BAB-E, BAB-E. Need to get a feel for their intentions. (We've got most of our land claimed but need to settle the solo islands real quick). Ask them about their sailing experiences. Any sea monsters or lost ships, have they found the edge of the world and how do they plan not to fall off of it.

I would not mention our contact with The Council, not for a good while, anyway.

Could tell them that I was so besotted by their messenger that I completely ignored the message. And spice it up with a picture of man drooling. Like this:


http://www.orangeneko.com/Rik/pages/drool.jpg

or something similar.

Gotta remember that Team KISS from MTDG 1 sorta split into two teams this time, BABE and GONG.

This is a copy of Post #132 in The Council thread, where I informed them of us meeting Babe. I've put it here, too, just to be complete.


Dear Wise People of The Council,

We have come into contact with Team BABE following their Turn 98. They must have sighted us on their turn. We saw no boats on our shores (excepting barbarians) on Turn 97.

We have alerted our Ambassador to the Next, but he has not had time to respond. I've taken it upon myself to alert you of this important event, bypassing the normal channels of communication.

We received their letter of introduction between the two missives from you.

No telling what BABE is up to. Seems like about half of Team KISS from MTDG 1 went to BABE and the other half went to GONG.

But they are being clever. My first three posts in Team KISS (First (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=4198545&postcount=641), Second (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=4198551&postcount=642) and Third (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=4198559&postcount=643)) were a story and two re-versed songs from Queen (We Will Rock You and We are the Champions).

And our first contact with BABE includes a re-versed song, but I don't recognize it. :lol:

Sincerely yours,

Art Parry
aka CommandoBob

Let FREEdom ring,
Let the white dove sing...

Maybe The Council "sold" contact to BABE?

Basically, I think we are the furthest from BABE, so we need to concentrate on a navy.

Whats the tune? I didn't recognize it.

Free Falling by Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers.

I've written a message to BABE, can you please send it to them if it's deemed acceptable? I stole your line at the end because I liked it so much. Should I give them my email so that they can send email to me directly or simply use the team account?


A Communiqué to the Great People of BABE.

Your envoy's beauty radiates as brightly as the light that led you to our shores. Her beauty has resounded throughout FREE and struck at the hearts of the people of FREE. As she loves them they love her. Let this event mark the beginning of peace and friendship between our Peoples. To facilitate such a relationship between our Peoples, the Evaackkian Emperor, servant of the sovereign people of FREE, has seen fit to appoint me as the ambassador to BABE. Let us therefore work together to ensure peace reigns. I remain your humble and obedient servant.

Aluka
Ambassador of FREE to BABE

Let FREEdom ring,
Let the white dove sing...

Just sent to Team BABE:
A Communiqué to the Great People of BABE.

Your envoy's beauty radiates as brightly as the light that led you to our shores. Her beauty has resounded throughout FREE and struck at the hearts of the people of FREE. As she loves them they love her. Let this event mark the beginning of peace and friendship between our Peoples. To facilitate such a relationship between our Peoples, the Evaackkian Emperor, servant of the sovereign people of FREE, has seen fit to appoint me as the ambassador to BABE. Let us therefore work together to ensure peace reigns. I remain your humble and obedient servant.

Aluka
Ambassador of FREE to BABE

Let FREEdom ring,
Let the white dove sing...


This is your original message; I have not changed anything.

I added Team BABE to our email contact list.

Email Addresses

As to which email address to use, the team or a personal one, I'm not sure which is the best. I did use my personal Gmail account, TheCommandoBob AT Gmail DOT com, but only for a few times when talking with The Council early on. I also informed The Council of that email address before I used it.

General_W of The Council sends things from his personal account at times. But not always. So he is not much help! :D

I think that using the team account is probably the best, since that provides a central place to keep our messages. Once we meet everybody, that may not be practical, having the team saves and diplomacy both flowing through one email account. We might want to consider creating a second email address that would be devoted to passing along the save game file, and keep the current email for Inter-Team communications. (This second email address would only be a concern for the Admins and Team SABER, who plays before we do.)

But if you have need or desire to use a personal email account, please send a copy to the team account.


Preaching to the Choir
What is more important is that the communications be open to the entire team. Posting the messages that are actually sent (and not the Cliff Notes version of them) and posting the messages received from the other team are keys to keeping everyone informed of what is going on.

In addition to keeping everyone informed, it also allows for a smoother transition when people change roles in the game. The paper trail is visible, the discussions are posted and there are no hidden or forgotten items. The new person can quickly get a good grasp of the current situation.

Thanks for your help. I'll use the team email account for now, and post all messages sent and received here.

Should we talk about a longer peace treaty, maybe 30 turns like the Council?

Let's see what BABE wants to offer us, if anything.

If we ask for 30 turns of peace just after they sign a deal with The Council, that will tell them how closely we work with The Council. I would like to keep them guessing on that subject.

(I am assuming that they do not know that we and The Council are in communication. They make think we are and be very certain of it, but lack hard evidence.)

I feel we might be BABE's target. We are weak compared to BABE and The Council. So if BABE is gearing for overseas warfare we could be the next target.

I definatly think we could be a target, but by settleing SABER's islands, SABER seems more likely. Plus SABER is closer.

The only way they wouldn't think that FREE and the Council are friendly is if they were stupid. The only two civs in the Middle Ages would probably be working together.

I'm following your discussion and will send any messages required by our plan of action. The problem I see with a peace agreement with a 30 turn cancellation period is that it would hinder us acting in quick cohesion with the council in case of a crisis while maintaining compliance with said agreement. Of course compliance in such an instance may be of negligible concern, in which case such an agreement would function as a useful diversionary tactic. It would work to dissimulate our true strategic interests from the facade we present to BABE. This will however also raise the stakes in our dealing with any issue of aggression, exasperating the process of a return to normal relations between us and BABE after such an incident.

137th post for me! (1/137 is approximately the fine structure constant).

Should we send a letter to BABE about exploration if The Teal Torpedo survives?

Should we send a letter to BABE about exploration if The Teal Torpedo survives?
Yes.

If we survive and make landfall we will want to tell Babe about it. And ask if they would object to us enjoying the coastal attractions of BABE-land. They might refuse and then we would have to decide on how to proceed. We could try to stay outside their territorial waters or go back to sea.

If we survive, we need to bring a 'gift' to them. Of some sort. Similiar to the 'gift' they brought to us.

On Turn 103 we find BABE Land.

Teal Torpedo
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/MTDG2/The100s/103_TT.jpg

We need a message to BABE rather quickly, since they play after GONG.

Did we meet SABER also? Look at the borders to the south. I was focused on making landfall and moved too soon.

Let's just inform BABE that we are stopping by at Maryann but plan to be leaving rather soon. Ask if they will forgive our intrusion, but Teal Torpedo needed some fresh water. :D

A communiqué to the great people of BABE:

The primeval instinct of man to explore his surrounds and learn of the world the great Meleet created has led our explorers to your shore. They have braved the treacherous seas and are currently near the city of Maryann. Though the beauty of the women of BABE is legendary there is no landing party aboard the ship. Their mission is one of exploration of the seas only and they bring the friendship between the people of FREE and the people of BABE with them. As these are your coastal waters we wish to ask if there are areas to which you forbid them to sail? If that is the case they will respectfully adhere to your wishes. I remain your humble and obedient servant.

Aluka
Ambassador of FREE to BABE

Let FREEdom ring,
Let the white dove sing...


I'll leave you to read over it and make sure all is in order. If that is the case can you send it once you've looked over it? (I'd send it myself but want to be sure I haven't accidently declared war on them or something.)

Looks good to me. The content is fine; the only change I would suggest is just on the formatting. I think the sentence 'I remain your humble and obedient servant.' should be it's own paragraph, since it is part of the closing.

Well, it was in all the Horatio Hornblower books I read, anyway. :D

The Hornblower books were an enjoyable read.

I made the suggested change. Here, as a formality, is the text of the revised letter that was sent to BABE.


A communiqué to the great people of BABE:

The primeval instinct of man to explore his surrounds and learn of the world the great Meleet created has led our explorers to your shore. They have braved the treacherous seas and are currently near the city of Maryann. Though the beauty of the women of BABE is legendary there is no landing party aboard the ship. Their mission is one of exploration of the seas only and they bring the friendship between the people of FREE and the people of BABE with them. As these are your coastal waters we wish to ask if there are areas to which you forbid them to sail? If that is the case they will respectfully adhere to your wishes.

I remain your humble and obedient servant.

Aluka
Ambassador of FREE to BABE

Let FREEdom ring,
Let the white dove sing...

Note: BABE is in the Middle Ages

Is it me or do these coastlines look the same?

Images are from Turn 107, 430 BC.

Northwest, centered on Ninhursag-Ki

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/MTDG2/107_NW.jpg


Teal Torpedo

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/MTDG2/107_TT.jpg

Yes they're pretty much the same. If you go back to the images of where we first made land fall you'll see the difference is in the luxuries/resources.

Could this mean we all have the same basic landmass?

It almost certainly does mean that.

We need to send a letter to BABE asking them not to blockade our galley. It is quite annoying, and with a third galley, we would have to risk sinking.

Babe has not responded to our message from June 21, after Turn 103. That was 10 turns ago. I don't think they'll repsond now.

Regardless, we do need to try to talk to them. Probably pointless, but they need to be refusing us, not us ignoring them.

They have had one galley blocking our way for about the last five turns. I sorta understand that they don't want us to map their land and that is why they have made it so difficult, allowing only two moves per turn instead of three.

Do they fear an invasion from us?

I worry that their boat to our south might have troops in it, which is why I moved an EW that direction. I just hope that galley begins to map counter-clockwise.

On the other hand, our one galley is keeping two of their galleys from doing anything else.

Here is my proposal for our message to BABE. I think this will show that we aren't looking for direct confrontation but we see what is going on. We will see how they respond and decide on a diplomatic strategy to follow. If we receive an unsatisfactory reply we could ask in a sterner tone for a clarification.

We could even suggest a trade of maps between our teams to mask our current position and confuse BABE. This would be done in a way that would allow us to back away from a trade easily. Nevertheless we should inform the council of such a strategy, if we proceed, making it clear we have no actual plan for such a trade.

This is all just a suggestion of a diplomatic course we could follow depending on how BABE responds.


A communiqué to the great people of BABE:

We are again contacting you on the matter of exploration of our respective coastal waters. Not having received a reply to our previous inquiries over the matter of coastal exploration we decided that you had no concerns about our galley exploring the waters of BABE. (We hope that the previous communiqué was not lost on the way.)

The current positioning of naval units has, however, raised the potential of the possible perception of a strategy designed to slow the progress of our galley. We believe it is important that we keep our lines of communication open to decrease any chance of a misunderstanding and any distrust that could follow. Could you please voice any concerns you have over this matter?

We have also spotted naval units belonging to BABE off our west coast. Rest assured they will be allowed to proceed unimpeded for now.

I remain your humble and obedient servant.

Aluka
Ambassador of FREE to BABE

Let FREEdom ring,
Let the white dove sing...


I'll see what people think of the current message and make changes as needed before sending it.

I think that looks fine.

Looks goods; sounds right.

OK by me.

I've sent it to them. Here's the text once again as a formality.


A communiqué to the great people of BABE:

We are again contacting you on the matter of exploration of our
respective coastal waters. Not having received a reply to our previous
inquiries over the matter of coastal exploration we decided that you
had no concerns about our galley exploring the waters of BABE. (We
hope that the previous communiqué was not lost on the way.)

The current positioning of naval units has, however, raised the
potential of the possible perception of a strategy designed to slow
the progress of our galley. We believe it is important that we keep
our lines of communication open to decrease any chance of a
misunderstanding and any distrust that could follow. Could you please
voice any concerns you have over this matter?

We have also spotted naval units belonging to BABE off our west coast.
Rest assured they will be allowed to proceed unimpeded for now.

I remain your humble and obedient servant.

Aluka
Ambassador of FREE to BABE

Let FREEdom ring,
Let the white dove sing...

48 hours have now passed with no response. I for one think they're blockading us deliberately. If they don't respond in the next 24 hours I think we can say they won't respond to us on this issue at least and possibly for any issue in general.

Any thoughts on this matter?

We might want to think about sending another letter, somewhat more strongly worded, asking them to quit trying to blockade us.

I don't think we are ready for war. But we may have to send a letter because turning around won't work because BABE's galleys are faster than ours.

From BABE:


Dear Freedom Seekers,

We are waiting on some workers and settlers and hope this isn't a problem for you. Let us know what you'd like us to do. We've tried to avoid impeding your progress by moving along the sea lanes.

In the meantime, would you be interested in any trades or co research opportunities? We've noticed that you have engineering and we'd be interested in trying to structure some type of deal on this and the possibility of co research.

Let us know your thoughts.

The Babes

Maybe we can get a map trade before we get The Council's map.

Their letter stinks of deception. If they're moving units, they don't need galleys in place to block us - having them in a stack would work just as well.

As for the co-research, it sounds like a smokescreen. We could play along, though, to try and worm some information out of them.

True, I thought to myself, hm... "Why here" then I forgot about it.

I think we should get a map, then try and worm info. If we have enough info, we could try and get a tech, or sneak attack with an 'exploring galley'

BABE shouldn't need to co-research. They should be able to tell that FREE and Council are allied. Plus their ally GONG has the Glib. Maybe we have misread BABE, and they don't know GONG. Maybe we should inquire about contacts.

From BABE:We've tried to avoid impeding your progress by moving along the sea lanes.


We've had a Babe galley blocking our progress for the last 4 or 5 turns. They didn't try very hard.

Maybe we can get a map trade before we get The Council's map.

Would we trust them with knowing where our cities are located? They don't trust us even knowing the outline of their landmass.

Their letter stinks of deception. If they're moving units, they don't need galleys in place to block us - having them in a stack would work just as well.

As for the co-research, it sounds like a smokescreen. We could play along, though, to try and worm some information out of them.

Yes, these units could stack. And having their units block ours for two turns... either they are stupid or are playing stupid.

True, I thought to myself, hm... "Why here" then I forgot about it.

I think we should get a map, then try and worm info. If we have enough info, we could try and get a tech, or sneak attack with an 'exploring galley'

BABE shouldn't need to co-research. They should be able to tell that FREE and Council are allied. Plus their ally GONG has the Glib. Maybe we have misread BABE, and they don't know GONG. Maybe we should inquire about contacts.


If Babe wants to trade, they should explain why they have ignored us. They found us on Turn 98, we exchanged contacts. Later we found them and sent them a note about our intentions, which they ignored (never responded). Only after this second note did they respond.

I don't want to tease the Babes with possible trades that will never happen.

Suggested Reply to Babe

I think we need to reply along these lines:


We're flattered that you (Babe) would like to trade with us,

But, frankly, we don't know you well enough to trust you,

Because you did not respond to our earlier communication regarding the Teal Torpedo exploring your coastline.

If such a simple request on a rather minor matter was not worthy of even a one word note of reply ("Yes" or "No") why should we now be interested in a trade of any nature?

We are not trying to be nasty or pushy. We are trying to be clear and concise.

There is a risk that being this direct can be misunderstood. We hope it is not.

We are not trying to end communications between our great lands. We are trying to begin to communicate with the Wondrous Babes.

This is a bit stark and blunt as I've sketched it in the list above. But it does highlight my own frustration with Babe. We would need to smooth it out a little bit before we sent it off.

For us, this message delays any talk of trade as they are now forced to explain themselves, if they reply at all. And once we get a response, we can then tell them that we are working with The Council in our research efforts (which I am sure they know already).

By this time, BABE has a good picture of our coast. We have not discovered anything else of importance, so now would be a good time. We should inquire in noncommittal terms we we can back out if The Council objects.

Sorry about the long time taken for me to finally write our response up. Without further delay here it is. Suggestions for any changes or additions are, as always, welcome.


Your Excellency,
Under instruction from the department of exploration and cartography I am to convey to you a suggestion for a trade in maps. This is in response to your question on whether we’re interested in any trades. Would it also not be possible for your galleys to stack on the single square to allow our galley to pass?

As to the question of co-research we are not entirely decided on this matter. Team GONG has recently built the great library and we are hesitant to inadvertently gift any technology to them through the mechanism of the great wonder.

I remain your humble and obedient servant,

Aluka
Ambassador of FREE to BABE

Let FREEdom ring,
Let the white dove sing...

Sounds good. We want to confuse BABE by hinting at an alliance, which you letter does nicley.

Sounds good.

I'm not sure about the map trade but let's see how that plays out.

Good reason for declining the tech trade. Bringing up the GLib and how it affects what we trade; very good idea. I am curious to see how they respond to that.

I'm ok with sending a copy of this message to The Council, if needed.

Sent it without alteration.


Your Excellency,
Under instruction from the department of
exploration and cartography I am to convey to you a suggestion for a
trade in maps. This is in response to your question on whether we're
interested in any trades. Would it also not be possible for your
galleys to stack on the single square to allow our galley to pass?

As to the question of co-research we are not entirely decided on this
matter. Team GONG has recently built the great library and we are
hesitant to inadvertently gift any technology to them through the
mechanism of the great wonder.

I remain your humble and obedient servant,

Aluka
Ambassador of FREE to BABE

Let FREEdom ring,
Let the white dove sing...


BABE is making overtures to trade towards both us and the council. It is most likely that they are scouting out the situation. Let's see if we can get some information out of them about their relations to GONG.

I remain suspicious but a triple entente would dominate the game if BABE is being honest in looking for partners on the world stage.

BABE is attempting to invade SABER. They must have blocked our galley so that we could not see their staging grounds.

Whomp of Team BABE has posted a thread in the common forum about Team BABE resigning from the game.

Could be a great big mind game or could be the real thing. I can't see the Admins being part of an in-game scheme.

However, if Babe discussed things outside of their private forum (IM/email), then this could be an elaborate scam designed to lull Saber into a false sense of peace.

This is still a breaking new story and the facts are not all in.

What does game rules say about resigning? I have had though that no team is allowed to resign from the game. ie. in the most absurd situation they have to find a player to play all remaining BABE turns wihout any team discussions.

You may want to be careful of the same thing. Beachheads galore is our motto. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=5911844&postcount=47)

Think we're next?

Send something like this to BABE ASAP:

Do not land any units in our territory; such a landing will be considered an act of war.

Proposed text:


A Communiqué to the Great People of BABE.
Certain news regarding strategic issues from abroad has recently reached our shores. In light of this news we would like to offer a clarification. A landing of units, without our permission, on any landmass upon which one of our cities lies will be interpreted as a decleration of war. We hope that making this aspect of our policy clear will reduce the possibilty of a misunderstanding coming between our two nations.

I remain your humble and obedient servant.

Aluka
Ambassador of FREE to BABE

Let FREEdom ring,
Let the white dove sing...

Maybe we want to add the our galley will not end a turn in BABE waters if possible. Right now we must end a turn in their waters because we are blocked by their galleys.

Certain news regarding strategic issues from abroad has recently reached our shores. In light of this news we would like to offer a clarification. A landing of units, without our permission, on any landmass upon which one of our cities lies will be interpreted as a decleration of war. We hope that making this aspect of our policy clear will reduce the possibilty of a misunderstanding coming between our two nations.

A good start, but it may be too broad for the future. What if we invade someone and then Babe lands on the far side of the island. Do we declare war?

How about:
A landing of units, without our permission, on any landmass where at least half of the cities are our will be interpreted as a decleration of war.

Also, we would ourselves to this standard. That is, if we landed units without permission on a small island that only had a Babe city, we would be guilty of starting a war.

Not sure how cultural boundaries should figure into this, however. Sorry. :(

I know that I don't really know much about this game, but has anyone considered that BABE might still be gunning for FREE?

Several of their moves have been stupid:

1) Targeting the Council before us as we are weaker

2) Landing a minor force in council lands and not all their troops. (They may have wished to prevent a SABER scenario)

3) Didn't GONG suggest that FREE may be in danger and NOT the council?

Is it just me or could this not be an elabourate ruse...

Maybe i'm just new and don't really know whats going on...

I think BABE is mostly trying to land beachhead parties to prevent everyone from putting up SABER-style blockades. Though in our case they might go for an immediate war of conquest...

Also, could we put up an official team FREE position on the BABE-Council war in the main forum? I propose that our position be something to this effect:

BABE invaded the Council by landing military units inside their culture borders; the Council responded appropriately by destroying the invaders.

Tusker - I would support BABE more, and send a letter to The Council saying that we are trying to defuse the situation, don't take things at face value.

On my last turn, I dropped science to 0%, so that we could rush a couple of EW on in MLK Jr. and Sid City to set up a SABER blockade.

Eh, my posts in the main thread are uncoloured by our alliance with the Council. If someone else wants to "support" BABE more in the public forum for the sake of diplomacy, go ahead, but I stand by my remarks.

Well approaching their agreement from a purely technical viewpoint is the only way doubt as to who broke the treaty comes about. It is clear that BABE knew they were undertaking an extremely aggressive course of action that would most likely end in war againts a party they had a peace treaty with.

In light of that I don't think the international reputation of the council has been damaged at all.

Below is a revised text of my proposal for the message to BABE. I have tried to ease any concerns that the situation commandobob outlined above (that a single city on a continent will trigger a war) can come about. I'll remove the bold before sending it.

A Communiqué to the Great People of BABE.
Certain news regarding strategic issues from abroad has recently reached our shores. In light of this news we would like to offer a clarification. A landing of units, without our permission, on any landmass upon which one of our cities lies will be interpreted as a declaration of war. This statement of policy is limited in temporal scope and will be revised if future situations call for it. As such it applies only to the current geographic and territorial position of FREE. We hope that making this aspect of our policy clear will reduce the possibility of a misunderstanding coming between our two nations.

I remain your humble and obedient servant.

Aluka
Ambassador of FREE to BABE

Let FREEdom ring,
Let the white dove sing...

Looks good.

I like it.

Especially I like what Aluka bolded. What I had proposed was a good starting point, but it had issues. Making the definition changeable as time goes on is a very good idea.

I know that I don't really know much about this game, but has anyone considered that BABE might still be gunning for FREE?

Several of their moves have been stupid:

1) Targeting the Council before us as we are weaker

2) Landing a minor force in council lands and not all their troops. (They may have wished to prevent a SABER scenario)

3) Didn't GONG suggest that FREE may be in danger and NOT the council?

Is it just me or could this not be an elabourate ruse...

Maybe i'm just new and don't really know whats going on...
New or not, your points are valid and we need to keep them in mind. My gut feel is that we are not the intended target, but I can't really support that with any sound logic.


I think that Babe was just bored and they knew more about The Council than us. And so they stirred the pot a little. I'm not sure how long the Babe-Council war will last, but any war will slow down the research pace, which works to Babe's advantage.

We might be a target, but if so then Babe has warfare with us and Council, which surely they could expect and try to avoid.

And it could be that Babe just wants to be slaughtered and be out of the game.

Sent the revised text to BABE.


A Communiqué to the Great People of BABE.

Certain news regarding strategic issues from abroad has recently
reached our shores. In light of this news we would like to offer a
clarification. A landing of units, without our permission, on any
landmass upon which one of our cities lies will be interpreted as a
declaration of war. This statement of policy is limited in temporal
scope and will be revised if future situations call for it. As such it
applies only to the current geographic and territorial position of
FREE. We hope that making this aspect of our policy clear will reduce
the possibility of a misunderstanding coming between our two nations.

I remain your humble and obedient servant.

Aluka
Ambassador of FREE to BABE

Let FREEdom ring,
Let the white dove sing...

Received from BABE

Dear Free,

We're afraid precedence has already been set by Saber. We only recognize the Civ3 game mechanics as we were told to do based on this previous incident.

Our view is war is started either by attacking a unit or through an in game declaration of war. Since this is not civ4 we feel our units can move anywhere unless you propose a deal. Anything without an agreement is fair game.

It also doesn't help that we've had zero diplomacy and very early you decided to work with Council exclusively. What we find even more appalling is your partner, and indirectly your team, has helped Saber out of their rat hole.

Let us know if you have anything to propose.

The Babes

Any ideas on how we should respond, if we should respond at all?

We could just say that's our policy and we're making them aware of it. If they choose to ignore it they should not be surprised if it leads to war. Maybe say that "we're aware of the game mechanics" if we want to make it curt.

Otherwise we could once again make it clear that it has to do with our current 3 islands and we're willing to return the favour of not landing units on their islands to create beach-heads or sneaking a city in.

I'm tempted to send a response mentioning the following:

* We sent the last message as a courtesy, to avoid any confusion over acceptable troop movements.
* Goading other nations into attacking your units by landing small invasion forces, then pretending that they're the injured party is not only disingenuous, it's dishonorable and outright dishonest.
* The BABES would be better named the BABIES - "Wah, wah, SABER foiled our invasion plan so now the game sucks!" Whiners.
* Sure, we have a treaty with the Council. BABE could have had a FREE treaty, too, if they'd found us sooner or even offered once we did make contact.
* Again, BABE needs to drop the dishonesty. The way they've approached the Council war is akin to a rapist pressing charges against his victim because she sprayed him with mace before he could knock her down!

List of Babe and Free Communications

Babe to Free: T97; 6/7/07, 5:22 pm; Post #1; Hi, howrya?

Free to Babe: T98; 6/8/07, 8:17 pm; Post #10; We're fine, howaboutyou?

Free to Babe: T103; 6/21/07, 2:14 am; Post #22; Can we explore your coastline?

Free to Babe: T114; 7/16/07, 9:33 am; Post #33; Will you undo you blockade so we can explore your coast?

Babe to Free: T114; 7/18/07, 9:25 pm; Post #37; Maybe, but do you want to trade?

Free to Babe: T116; 7/23/07, 12:18 am; Post #46; We can trade maps and will you move your boats to let us pass?

Free to Babe: T127; 9/6/07, 10:04 pm; Post #63; How we (Free) interpert landing of units (right now).

Babe to Free: T127; 9/8/07, 3:45 pm; Post #64; How we (Babe) interpert landing of units (right now).

Post numbers are from this log; so is the date and time. We may have received/sent the email at a different time, but the times listed are the times on the message post.

We do need to reply to Babe's message and claims, but not right away. They seem intent on goading us into a war, which helps them.

I think we need to send our message, Babe's reply and maybe the list of Babe-Free communications to The Council.

They cannot help respond, but it should prove interesting reading.

(Yeah, like pouring gasoline on a fire to put it out!)

Hmm, I think someone should call for sanctions against BABE as a response to their unsportsmanlike, err, unsportsBABE-like conduct in the Council's thread.

Before I go poking at that particular hornet's nest in the public forum, though, I'd like to get an idea of how the rest of the team feels on this issue. I also think we should mention it privately to the Council before (possibly) moving forward.

Sanctions could include either in-game or out-of-game measures. Something like "BABE must pay 100 gold to the Council" or "BABE's turn 130 will be skipped" or "BABE must abandon 10 Galleys". Really anything would work, but I would favor something more metagamey like an enforced turn skip as a response to their metagame poor sportsmanship.

Unsportsmanlike Conduct
It looks like Wotan and Niklas got things settled out. And it appears that it was attacking and winning with a 1/5 Ancient Cavalry was the trigger to everything.

Responding to Babe
Part of me wants to ram the 'Zero Diplomacy' phrase down their throats. But an angry response will probably not work well.

Another part of me thinks a stern rebuke would be better. Something that would list our communication history and then leave the door open for more discussion.

And yet a third part of me wants to just say:
If it is Zero Diplomacy you want, then it is Zero Diplomacy you will get.

That quote feels good, but I really don't think it is in our best interest.

Babe Goals (Random Thoughts and Rambling)
Babe wants to win the game, just like we do. They expected a military game, not a geek-fest. This could become a space race, which they don't want.

I'm not sure what they want from us. They haven't made any great effort to seduce us with anything, nor has Gong. The reverse is true, too. We haven't made any great effort to seduce Babe or Gong, either. And they are jealous of our pairing with The Council.

Right now I think that Babe is just frustrated with the map and is focused on stirring the pot a bit in order to gain an advantage (any advantage). If Babe wants to leave the game, The Council is very willing to help them commit suicide.

If Babe is just playing as a spoiler (that is, a disrupter, not a whiner) then their focus is short term, not long term, and our response should be 'Leave FREE alone'. If they are in for long haul, we need something better.

The Council's Goals
Of course, if The Council takes out Babe by invasion, then they will control most of Babe's land. I'm not sure if we want that or not. We may need to help with the Babe war.

I would let The Council take BABE land, which will be a hard fight for them. Then after will make a great ICS scientist island. Look at how small our military is, and then GONG is weak to us. Plus it looks like we are doing the world a favor by taking out the 100K team. Still, we could always mooch a part of BABE's land.

The Council's Goals
Of course, if The Council takes out Babe by invasion, then they will control most of Babe's land. I'm not sure if we want that or not. We may need to help with the Babe war.

Once again a minor point from me to consider.....

Seeing as we wouldn't want The Council to have a double portion of land without anything for ourselves, what is Team Gong thinking about right now? Surely they wouldn't want the BABEs to control all of The Council's land without something for themselves?

A few options:

1) They are sending an invasion force (Against The Council) that hasn't landed yet.

2) BABE has agreed to split the spoils with GONG in return for funding.

3) They are going to attack FREE while BABE keeps The Council occupied.

4) They are going for a cultural victory and think that a world at war is good for them.

5) I don't know what i'm talking about or i'm overthinking this entire situation. (Always an option:lol: )

Pinman

GONG can't attack us right now, except for the SE island, right now because it would involve crossing sea tiles. And two, their military is weak to ours. So even if they do invade, they can't do much damage. I think they are going for option 4.

I want to invade them after we get Cavs and Magnetism.

I'd guess 2 or 4 or 6 (they have their own goals, but they're not really in position to exploit the situation right now).

Received from BABE
Dear Free,

We're afraid precedence has already been set by Saber. We only recognize the Civ3 game mechanics as we were told to do based on this previous incident.

Our view is war is started either by attacking a unit or through an in game declaration of war. Since this is not civ4 we feel our units can move anywhere unless you propose a deal. Anything without an agreement is fair game.

It also doesn't help that we've had zero diplomacy and very early you decided to work with Council exclusively. What we find even more appalling is your partner, and indirectly your team, has helped Saber out of their rat hole.

Let us know if you have anything to propose.

The Babes


Suggested reply:

Dear BABE,

Please forgive us for not responding sooner. Shortly after our last message exchange, a plague called Fantasy Football descended upon us like stink on a skunk, sucking up brain cells and draining I.Q. points. We hope that the worst of that plague is over.

While we do have differing definitions of what constitutes a delcaration of war, in time those distinctions should disappear.

If diplomacy is measured by signed treaties, then it is true our nations have had no diplomacy. If diplomacy is measured in other ways, such as messages exchanged, we (Babe and Free) have engaged in diplomacy. It may not have resulted in treaties or agreements but we have been talking.

It is possible that Babe regards Free as mere appendages of The Council. (At least, that is how parts of your last communication sound to us.) While we don't know if such a viewpoint is truly how your people view us, it seems likely that some do.

If Babe truly thinks we are puppets of The Council, and given how Babe viewed the Peace Treaty with The Council (exploring units inside cultural boundaries are OK; The Council broke the treaty by attacking Babe units), why would Babe want any treaty with Free?



Just a starting point.

Put sarcasm quotes around "exploring".

...okay, that wouldn't be productive. Still, I doubt anything productive will come out of communications with the BABIES.

Still, I doubt anything productive will come out of communications with the BABIES. :lol:

I not in favor of communication. What will we get out of it?

I don't expect anything productive to come out of this exchange.

I do think we need to keep talking to Babe (and Gong) even if we have nothing to say.

Here we have several non-issues to talk over with Babe (previous communications, us being stooges of The Council, how much we might despise Saber for turtling and probably some other items I've overlooked or haven't created yet.)

We may never agree to a trade or exchange, but I think we need to keep the lines of communication open. We may need Babe for something someday.

Do they have luxuries we want?

Do they have luxuries we want?

Yes, I know that they have Incense, and IIRC they also have dyes, but I believe that The Council also has dyes.

Last I checked, we can steal an incense from BABE by founding a city on the NW part of their island.

<sarcasm>...but good luck keeping that city given our military strength</sarcasm>

What are we going to say when BABE finds we gifted them Education?

Wouldn't they get it from team GONG anyway?

In response to Empiremaker I believe there are afew things we could do:

1) Adopt a wait and see approach while staying silent. (Will Babe accept Education without a word, Will Babe have Education next turn anyways from Gong, ect.)

2) Attempt to justify our gift in some way to Babe in the hopes of getting them to accept it.

3) Say it was an accident but we didn't want to replay.

4) Tell the Truth:lol:

5) Other

I would suggest adopting number 1 if they send us a message until we receive the turn. Then we can see if they have it anyways from Gong or not. If they do have it from Gong I would use #3. If they accept it from us I would also suggest #3. If they do not have it from Gong we have to consider our options. Number 2 is a possibility.

Pinman

Sorry guys I've been away for 10 days and forgot to inform you. I'll read up on what's been going on after uni today and write a response if I'm not too tired. Otherwise someone else can take over if anything needs to be done soon.

Is there anything I need to tell BABE in regards to the education issue?

I don't think so. At least, not now.

Proposed letter for military tradition.

Hail BABES,

We on Team FREE noticed that you have some mounted warriors with rifles. Would you make a trade for them, such as Education and Banking for Military Tradition?

Team FREE

CB, when you play this turn, could you use CAII to check the tech costs?

Sure, I'll check the tech costs.

Sent to the BABES:

Hail BABES,

We on Team FREE noticed that you have some mounted warriors with rifles. Would you make a trade for them, such as Education and Banking for Military Tradition and 600 Gold?

Team FREE

Long reply by the BABES:

nope

Proposed letter. Will send when GONG plays.

BABES,

Even though you weren't interested in a tech trade, would you be interested in a 2 luxury trade? The deal has been sent this turn for your consideration.

Team FREE

The Babes wrote an essay this time:

Nope! ;)

they did :D

At least it has a smiley at the end. Just adds a friendly touch.

Wotan retired. BCLG is the new leader of team BABE. Might be important that we suggest a luxure swap again?
6th luxure to us would benefit greatly.

From Whomp: Not much we can ask him at this time when next turn he finds his ally being attacked.

Thanks for the trade of incense for spices.
Let me know if you're interested in further discussions.
Whomp

Maybe he's afraid we'll join the dogpile on him? And wants to try to keep us friendly?

This was the first time I checked Babe to see how their war was going.

Babe Lands at Start of Turn

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/MTDG2/BabeWar/213_BabeLandsStartOfTurn.jpg


North Babe at Start of Turn

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/MTDG2/BabeWar/213_BabeLandsStartOfTurn_NDetail.jpg

From BABE in regards to the mismoved ship. No issues. You get to watch the end. :D
Sorry but Saber knocked out all of our incense


Probably too late to help them now.

We could offer to buy their world map.

So a trade of Sci Meth, AT, Electronics, Computers for a World Map?

Which would be better for them right now: techs or gold?

Maybe we ship them 100 gpt for a while, just to keep them afloat?

Unfortunately, I don't think we have gold to spare. Them getting Mechs would do a lot to slow SABER's advance.

Are we in a position to take out Babe? Or claim some of the spoils?

I think we could spare 100gpt for a bit. I'm not sure it will matter, though - SABER has them on the ropes.

I like idea of buying BABE worldmap. Can we ask how much it's worth?

I like idea of buying BABE worldmap. Can we ask how much it's worth?
Depends on how much time they have left.

We could ACCEPT (on our side) an offer for WM for 200 gold (?), then inform them of the deal, and get the ball rolling.

Proposed message to Babe:

Dear Leaders of the Mighty Purple Babes,

We know that Saber is dealing you some mighty blows and we would like to help.

We fear that Saber will soon attack either us or The Council, on their way to attempt a Domination victory. We have other plans, but we don't know if they will work out. But we would like for you to be around to see if they do. That is, we want Team Babe to be around as Team Babe, not spread around the world as what happened to Team Gong.

What we offer is this: an inland city in the land of Gong. This would prevent Saber from eliminating you without going to war with us. They would need to invade us to get to you.

We have no conflict with Babe though we do have defensive forces in Gong.

We have no way of knowing what your situation is in regards to Saber. They aren't saying and we haven't asked.

If you have made peace with Saber, then this offer probably has no appeal to you and we understand that.

Is this something worthy of further consideration?


I think we should ask for three things:
1) Babe make no peace with Saber
2) Babe's world map
3) Cooperation with our later plans, which we won't reveal right now.

Thoughts?

It seems almost Certain we are going for a Diplomatic Victory Now?

The Document seems good.

we need the Council's Vote to Seal our Victory, But I don't Think they will do that unless they are getting severely pounded and have lost their own aspirations for Space Race.

One thing- SABER won't be pleased with what we are doing (If they find out), and they will probably guess our Intentions, They might hold off their War with the Council in that case

Maybe we need to surprise SABER with building the UN and give BABE a city later. Can you vote for yourself in the UN?

You can.

that seems like a good idea, but where will we get Fission From? Can We Research it in Quick time?

Well, if everyone can vote for themselves why don't they?

Well, if everyone can vote for themselves why don't they?
In this game it would be a vote to end the game, with either us or Saber winning. If we gift Babe a city and Saber eliminates their mainland, we can tell Babe, 'Vote for us or die.'

Since Saber is at war with Babe, Babe would more inclined to vote for us, to prevent a Saber victory. The same is true of The Council.

If the choice is between 'Vote for myself and let my Conqueror win' (by Domination) or 'Vote for my ally and spit on my Conqueror', I think they'll vote for us.

Since Saber plays before us, they could take a Domination victory while the rest of us are deciding how to vote.

Ideally, this vote happens after Saber invades The Council. It does no good beforehand.

With our SGL, we can rush the UN in one turn, once we get smart enough to build the UN.

I like the idea. Vote for us or die!:bowdown:

Edit: Wait, if they "say" they are going to vote for us and the UN vote is the last turn they could vote for somebody else and we can't do anything about it.

BABE won't vote for anything else, they got into metagame fights with The Council and SABER. Yes, lets gift BABE a city.

EDIT: This will also hurt SABER because they will keep any WW.

What is a WW?

War Weariness.

Okay. Go Free :trophy:

Edit: Wait, if they "say" they are going to vote for us and the UN vote is the last turn they could vote for somebody else and we can't do anything about it.

There are only 2 candidates for an UN election. We and SABER will be the candidates because we have the most population and land area.

BABE will Certainly vote for us.
SABER will vote for themselves
The Big vote is that of the Council. We need SABER to Hit them so hard they will Vote for us.

What happens if there is a tie in the votes. We're kind of in a win-win situation with us getting two maybe three votes and SABER getting one maybe two.

Just sent to Babe, while we have the game at Turn 233 but before we have played it.

Dear Leaders of the Mighty Purple Babes,

We know that Saber is dealing you some mighty blows and we would like to help.

We fear that Saber will soon attack either us or The Council, on their way to attempt a Domination victory. We have other plans, but we don't know if they will work out. But we would like for you to be around to see if they do. That is, we want Team Babe to be around as Team Babe, not spread around the world as what happened to Team Gong.

What we offer is this: an inland city in the land of Gong. This would prevent Saber from eliminating you without going to war with us. They would need to invade us to get to you.

We have no conflict with Babe though we do have defensive forces in Gong.

We have no way of knowing what your situation is in regards to Saber. They aren't saying and we haven't asked.

If you have made peace with Saber, then this offer probably has no appeal to you and we understand that.

Is this something worthy of further consideration?

We have the turn, but have not played it.

Sincerely yours,

Art Parry
aka CommandoBob
Let FREEdom ring,
Let the white dove sing...

That's good

PM just sent to Whomp, the last turnplayer of Babe, before beginning our Turn 233.

Dear Whomp of Team Babe,

Have you checked Team Babe's email recently? We sent you something a few days back.

Sincerely yours,

Art Parry
aka CommandoBob of Team Free

Reply from Team Babe, both by email and PM, before I had a chance to get to Turn 233.


Hello Free,

No worries on the Sabers. We've already have a settler on Council so you should probably get in contact with Council with regards to fighting Saber. They have MA armies that can be transported so be aware of that problem. They're trying to root out my remaining fortifed infantry that are hiding out in Babes mountain retreat. We'll see how long they can last.

Regards,
Whomp

Hm... They could vote for The Council because if they build the UN, they would be put on the ballot. All the more reason to eliminate the Council and rely on BABE's vote.

Sent to Babe, after we played Turn 233 and before we sent the game to them.


Dear Mighty People of the Purple,

We are heartened to know that you are still in the game. That is good news.

We are still going to offer a city to you, at least for this turn. We're not sure that having a city on The Council's main landmass is good for Babe. If Saber does invade, we are fairly sure that eliminating the last Babe city will be a high priority. It could be that The Council is hoping for that to happen, which gives them a bit more time to respond. But we're not sure about that. It could just be that since you are already at war with The Council, it is easiest for both of you for Babe to build a city on their land and then make peace afterwards.

Anyway, we have offered a city to you this turn. Since we play after Saber but before you, if we see that Saber has invaded The Council, and your city has survived, we will offer a city at that time, if needed.

Keep in touch!

Sincerely yours,


Art Parry
aka CommandoBob
Let FREEdom ring,
Let the white dove sing...

Good, think they'll accept?

Hard to tell.

I think it depends on where their settler is and this new city will be built. I don't see The Council giving up good, core land for Babe. But if Babe builds on the shoreline, they could be targeted by Saber on the initial invasion turn.

We don't have enough units to really check on The Council's line of ships at sea to determine if it truly gives them advance notification of war. For that, someone would need to open the game, get some screenshots (with the griid turned on) and then use Paint or something similar to indicate what each ship could see.

I declared on Council after Saber disconnected our incense. Let me know if you'd like me to do the same.

That might be nice for the War Happiness.

I just saw that. At first I was confused and read it as a threat. Then the War Happiness aspect occurred to me. Still a confusing post; many ways to read it.

When did they make peace with The Council?

BABE and The Council are still at war, looking at the picture you posted in the turn thread.

True, but the message from Babe indicates that they were at peace at one point.

Saber invaded on Turn 213. If we went back to Turn 212 and checked the International scene, focused on Babe or The Council, we could tell if they were or were not at peace.

Then again, they may have made peace after the invasion and then once the Incense was gone, Babe declared on The Council.

They must have pretty cozy relations with The Council, after that early war. I mean, doing your former enemy such a favor as War Happiness.

Or maybe Babe is just bored.

From Whomp, after he played the turnHello Free's
Out of curiousity, how do you guys plan to win this? I wouldn't tell either team and if you're uncomfortable telling me I understand. Just curious...
W

Should we tell them?

Possible reply:

One day CommandoBob found a magic lantern. He rubbed the lamp and a genii appeared. He was a rather grumpy genii, too.

'For releasing me from the lantern, I will grant you only one wish. What would you like?'

CommandoBob had just bought a HumVee and had places he wanted to go.

'I want a bridge from California to Hawii, with cheap gas, good fast food and decent hotels along the way.'

'What?' exclaimed the genii. 'A bridge from Los Angles to Hawii? Are you nuts? Do you know how much work that would take, the amount of steel rebar and concete, how high the bridge needs to be to avoid shipping, how deep the water is along the way? Have you given any thought to such things? Man, even a genii has limits.'

'Okay, okay,' replied CommandoBob, 'I see what you mean.

'Instead of that bridge, tell me how Team FREE can win Multi Team Demo Game 2.'

The genii was silent for a bit.

'Did you want that 2-lane or 4-lane?'

:lol:. Very good, though you could hint at a diplo victory.

That was funny. :rotfl: By the way Happy Halloween

Just sent to Babe, after their Turn 235:

Dear Passionate Players of the Purple,

Its sorta like this:


One day CommandoBob found a magic lantern. He rubbed the lamp and a genii appeared. He was a rather grumpy genii, too.

'For releasing me from the lantern, I will grant you only one wish. What would you like?'

CommandoBob had just bought a HumVee and had places he wanted to go.

'I want a bridge from California to Hawii, with cheap gas, good fast food and decent hotels along the way.'

'What?' exclaimed the genii. 'A bridge from Los Angles to Hawii? Are you nuts? Do you know how much work that would take, the amount of steel rebar and concete, how high the bridge needs to be to avoid shipping, how deep the water is along the way? Have you given any thought to such things? Man, even a genii has limits.'

'Okay, okay,' replied CommandoBob, 'I see what you mean.

'Instead of that bridge, tell me how Team FREE can win Multi Team Demo Game 2.'

The genii was silent for a bit.

'Did you want that 2-lane or 4-lane?'

:dunno:

Art Parry
aka CommandoBob
Let FREEdom ring,
Let the white dove sing...

Good, but i forgot to mention that you had several misspelled words.

Proposed note:

Whomp and the BABES,

The Council is in mobilization and they haven't built Apollo. To prevent them from winning space race, we would like it if you don't make peace. If they start a war, we'll protect your city.

Sounds good.

Just received from Babe, after our Turn 237 and after their Turn 238.

Hope all is ok. It sounds like things have been thrown up for grabs.

We need a letter to Babe to thank them for the gifts of Military Tradition and 30 gold (two seperate gifts). I'll try to get something written after the turn is done.

Good courtesy is always a good thing and I just love your writing.