View Full Version : Mage Strategy: Generalise vs Specialise


Sarkyn
Jun 15, 2007, 08:34 AM
Mage Heavy: Specialise or Generalise

I had discovered in my first two games that mages required a lot of micro-management, and you often forget what you're doing with them. So I used the rename feature to ensure that my arcane spell users fell into distinct categories. I gave these categories distinct names and thus was able to progress quickly through the game, selecting the strategically correct upgrade for them.

They were:

1. Dabbler (Starting Generalist)
"Oh! I can do that… Here, let me..."

Snapshot: By their nature, take anything with a Dabbler.

These were the adepts created first - for utilising the mana nodes primarily, but also as an early source of buffs. With a Dabbler you buy whatever you need, including spells that have limited use in the game, or are cast rarely.

Things like Water I (Spring), Enchantment I-II (+attack), Body I (Haste), Law I-II (xp and Loyalty), Spirit I-II (Fear and City buffs), Chaos I (First Strikes), Earth I (Walls). They never bother to take Combat I-V, or range increases. They become Mages and fullfil the role of enchanter in endgame, but they are never as good as enchanters built LATER in the game as they lack the free promotions, which eventually outweight the earlier start.

In endgame, they either sit in cities in order to help them progress, or they sit with stacks keeping up the renewable buffs (+xp and +first strikes mostly), or they wander your empire putting out fires and re-improving pillaged mana nodes.

They also get killed first by Assassins, but you don't mind losing one much as they are a supplement to your mundane combat forces, not part of your arsenal.

2. Battlemage (Offence Specialist)
"Do not deviate from the path to victory."

Snapshot: Battlemages take a single element and the promotions that buff it

These take Combat I-V, Range I-II and then take a single path of destruction all the way to level III. Fire I-III, Air I-III, Earth III, Death I-III, and then anything else after that is just a bonus. These are designed to quickly gravitate towards +100% damaging long range magic attacks (such as Fire III meteor swarms, or Earth III crush, or Air III maelstroms or Water III Tsunami). They specialise, don't waste a single promotion on anything "useful" - that's what you have your dabblers and enchanters for.

Once they have the core attack promotions (Fire/E/A/W/D III, Combat V, Spell Range II), you can spend the promotions on Death I-III that move them towards becoming a Lich, freeing up their chair on the panel of Archmages. Don't try to fit more than ONE attack type each, you'll just run out!

Obviously the "core promotions" is a lot before you even start on Death. 10 promotions! That's why where at all possible you take the buildings, wonders and nodes that support these types. In this game, I was able to get 3 Death Nodes and 3 Fire Nodes, meaning that as the mage becomes a Lich, he has spent 9 promotions in total. Anything after that is a bonus.

Depending on race, you might prefer something other than Fire. Something that's easy for your civ to get to 3 nodes of reasonably quickly. Because you want to start to churn out….

3. Enchanter (Combat Buff Specialist)
"Who's Buffin'? I'm Buffin!"

Snapshot: Enchanters complement forces by taking buff spells that don't require Combat I-V

These mages, created later in the game to benefit from the free promotions of multiple mana nodes, take all the combat stack buffing spells that require re-casting first. Chaos I, Law I-II, Spirit I (and II later). They (hopefully) get Death I for free, so that while they do not cast it, the presence of them in your Empire and the spell means that the specialised Summoners can have another Skeleton in their flock.

Then they choose the longer term unit buffs that hang around until dispelled.

They do not take combat strength upgrades or range upgrades. They die a lot to assassins as the weakest unit in a stack, but you just replace them.

If your attack node is upgraded to III when you create them, you probably get a level II spell for free on the newer ones anyway, which (although not upgraded with Combat I-V or Range) is still nice to have in a stack when there are no buffs that need renewing.

The enchanters that survive long enough to promote, become….

4. Magister (City Buff Specialist)
"I haven't left my tower in 100 years."

Snapshot: City-located defenders for major cities, they take city improvement spells.

These mages (and possibly archmage, lich or flesh golem later in the game) are generally grown up Enchanters and have one main purpose and that's buffing cities and the units defending cities.

Law I-III, Mind II, Earth I, Spirit II (great for cultural borders!). No combat or range buffs.

Their main goal is to get to Law III for Unyielding Law so that they can keep any city happy. Along the way they can take the other buff spells for cities that are useful. Once they have them, they can buy the normal enchanter buffs for combat to assist in defence.

If your space at the Tier III ranks is getting tight, consider using them only when absolutely necessary, or finding a way around the limitation. Effectively it's very valuable to have a massive city with no unhappiness. Worth spending a Tier III mage? Yes/no - depends on the size of the city and the stage of the game. If you can find a way around it (Lich, Graft Flesh, etc), then it's an easy "yes!".

5. Summoner (Conjurations Specialist)
"Meet my friends."

Snapshot: Single-path specialist conjurors. With one summon/turn, it better be a good one.

A lot like the Battlemage above, these units should be designed from the outset to do one thing well.

They need the Range booster for further walking Summons immediately. They need the Combat I-V promotions to buff their particular summons. Then they need to specialise in ONE type of magic and get to level III with it before they take a second.

Recommended Summon types are Law/Chaos - these introduce the "Stays until it stops fighting" summons, which are invaluable in ongoing struggles in endgame. Particularly when coupled with an enchanter (above) to provide the +1xp Valor buff. These summons can survive long enough to get promotion after promotion, automatically increasing their effectiveness and also healing them.

The important thing is not to waste a single upgrade. Get your tier 3 summon first! Then Death I (if you're not getting it for free by now for having Tower of Necromancy), so that you can add another Skeleton to the stack that moves with your army.

Skeletons? These Skeletons will be ONLY summoned by whichever Summoner has the most buffs. Combat V, and Range II ideally. If anyone else summoned one, just disband it when it's done whatever job it was neede for. They provide a nice buffer for your attacking stack, and they can also sit in a newly captured city as a token defence while you wait to Gate/Walk in a real defender, or guard a worker who would otherwise become the victim of chariots.


General Mage-Tactics

1. They never walk alone

An archmage either teleports (gate technology) or walks hasted with an entourage. They do not walk alone in war time, or near borders. They are too valuable and annoying to replace if you lose one through carelessness.

2. They never rest

It's rarely a good idea to fortify or sentry a useful Enchanter. Even if all they do is cast "Haste" on the units in their tile, that's time and efficiency saved. Don't fortify them unless you're sure you'll remember to come back to them.

3. They keep odd company

Having a Raven or Hawk in your tiles will allow you to see stealthed, and also better target your longer range spells with your Battlemages. They can't stop the Shadows from attacking, but they can show you where they are so you can target your meteor.

4. They keep secrets

Build them with hidden nationality where possible, as the amount of warfare that a summoner or battlemage can do seems to far outweigh most other units, especially if you take into account the small risk they place themselves at. But remember to never leave them alone ESPECIALLY if they are hidden nationality.

5. They move on

Before your Archmages ranks are "clogged" with 3, start thinking about how you're going to free up that chair. Move towards Death magic to get 3 Lichs, or explore other options like Graft Flesh. Or heck, if you really get an excess, give them to an ally. The top tier mages should be evolving, so that each rank is actually slightly better than the last (due to being built later in the game, with more free promotions).

Don't stagnate at Tier III, move on!




That's it for me. Based on 3 games playing mage-heavy tactics, slowing increasing the difficulty. It seems to favour playing as a builder/culture in the early to mid-game so as to have time to Nurture these game winning mages.

But there is a real joy in selecting your "attacking stack" and hitting Meteor Swarm and watching 18 meteor swarms appear! And there's very little that can stand in your way as you move a heavily guarded stack into enemy territory, firing meteors or death magic 4-5 squares in every direction...

:-)

(Feel free to flame, feel free to make suggestions on how to streamline or improve! Thanks!)

slowcar
Jun 15, 2007, 10:30 AM
the most important thing about mages for me is: fight with them.
even as a magic leader it takes a lot of time for them to level, especially in the beginning.
give your adepts combat1-5 promotions and go on barbarian killing spree. just watch out for the new (0.22) animals.

also important: disable altar and cultural victory...
if you play emperor+ (i moved up to immortal with my favorite leaders but thats not mage-heavy but rush) the AI tends to win faster then you can get archmages. unless you destroy them, but then you win before you get archmages :D

katika
Jun 15, 2007, 11:42 AM
I could be wrong, but I think that only fireballs, meteors, skeletons, and summons benefit from combat promotions. Also, it might be worth mentioning the awesomeness of the Amurites' Cave of Ancestors. +1 XP per mana is amazing for creating mage armies.

Hoerks
Jun 15, 2007, 12:34 PM
Yes i wonder if Combat promotions affect spells like contagion at all.

xanaqui42
Jun 16, 2007, 12:13 AM
Yes i wonder if Combat promotions affect spells like contagion at all.

Combat I-V presently affect all damage-dealing spells. See here for detail. (http://civ4wiki.com/wiki/index.php/FfH_Magic_%28Feature%29#Damage) The summary is that each is +5 to the base damage. So with no Combat promotions (nor Channeling III), the base damage is 20-39 Death (limit 40); with Combat V (but not Channeling III, the base damage for Contagion is 45-64 death (limit 40). Obviously, any damage over the limit is only useful for countering resistance (both explicit, and that derived from defensive strength and level).

xanaqui42
Jun 16, 2007, 12:27 AM
(Feel free to flame, feel free to make suggestions on how to streamline or improve! Thanks!)

Mind if I place some of this into the wiki?

Sarkyn
Jun 16, 2007, 04:50 AM
Mind if I place some of this into the wiki?

Feel free to steel it in it's entirity :-)

(pop my name somewhere, and I'll come back and update and expand on it at some stage. I'm currently playing a "no mages Prince level game to try to explore other aspects of the game and learn about them as thoroughly. I might be tempted to write a simple guide on that when I'm done :).

Bastian-Bux
Jun 16, 2007, 06:00 AM
The best choice for a mage heavy approach is: Cabalim with Overlords.

Create an adept (usually with at least 2 exp)
Gift him Vampirism for free
Gulp up a city from 25 to 20 -> 100 exp (more if needed and given enough pop)
Graft flesh your new archmage (10+ promotions) with a high strength unit

In the matter of 1 turn you got a specialist unit that won't be the first target of the assassins. If you used the right high strength unit (preferably with Mobility or such) then synergies will kick in. All it did cost you was producing an adept, a high strength unit, and 5 pop (which will be back in 5 turns if you play it right). Who else can mass produce specialist mages?

Bastian-Bux
Jun 16, 2007, 06:04 AM
Oh, and don't forget: you've got 5 slots for mages able to level up (which flesah golems can't). Why 5? 3 liches, plus 2 archmages. The 3rd archmage slot is keeped free for mass production. Thus you can even have non-specialists with several hundred of exp.

sidamos
Jun 16, 2007, 06:12 AM
unit needs to be level 6 to be vampirized... (Moroi level 4)

Bastian-Bux
Jun 16, 2007, 08:15 AM
You are right ^^. So you need to get that adept to lvl 6 (37 exp) first. Which slows it down, but not that much.

katika
Jun 16, 2007, 10:01 AM
Combat I-V presently affect all damage-dealing spells. See here for detail. (http://civ4wiki.com/wiki/index.php/FfH_Magic_%28Feature%29#Damage) The summary is that each is +5 to the base damage. So with no Combat promotions (nor Channeling III), the base damage is 20-39 Death (limit 40); with Combat V (but not Channeling III, the base damage for Contagion is 45-64 death (limit 40). Obviously, any damage over the limit is only useful for countering resistance (both explicit, and that derived from defensive strength and level).
Wow, either I haven't been paying attention or the magic system has been seriously changed without recording the changes. That's very good to know and will definitely change my strategies. Combat promotions are that much better for arcane units, which helps out the Amurites who get additional free promotions.

xanaqui42
Jun 16, 2007, 01:18 PM
Feel free to steel it in it's entirity :-)

(pop my name somewhere, and I'll come back and update and expand on it at some stage. I'm currently playing a "no mages Prince level game to try to explore other aspects of the game and learn about them as thoroughly. I might be tempted to write a simple guide on that when I'm done :).


See (http://civ4wiki.com/wiki/index.php/FfH_Sarkyn%27s_Mage_Strategy_%28Strategy%29#Genera l_Mage-Tactics) what you think.

xanaqui42
Jun 16, 2007, 01:20 PM
also important: disable altar and cultural victory...
if you play emperor+ (i moved up to immortal with my favorite leaders but thats not mage-heavy but rush) the AI tends to win faster then you can get archmages. unless you destroy them, but then you win before you get archmages :D
If you're having this problem, I'd suggest you try a great person strategy focusing on Great Sages (http://civ4wiki.com/wiki/index.php/FfH_Great_Sage_%28Unit%29). This will speed up the technology, at least.

xanaqui42
Jun 16, 2007, 01:38 PM
Enchanter: "take all the combat stack buffing spells that require re-casting first" - I'd think that each Enchanter would want 1 such spell - or at least a small number of such spells (so they can continually re-cast it).

I might focus more on how to get the needed technology in a reasonable period of time. I find that a Great Sage strategy can help a lot.

There are a number of details that aren't described:
The Effect of Arcane (http://civ4wiki.com/wiki/index.php/FfH_Arcane_%28Trait%29), Magic Resistant, (http://civ4wiki.com/wiki/index.php/FfH_Magic_Resistant_%28Trait%29) and Summoner (http://civ4wiki.com/wiki/index.php/FfH_Summoner_%28Trait%29).

Any hero arcane spellcasters: Corlindale (http://civ4wiki.com/wiki/index.php/FfH_Corlindale_%28Hero%29), Govannon (http://civ4wiki.com/wiki/index.php/FfH_Govannon_%28Hero%29), Hemah (http://civ4wiki.com/wiki/index.php/FfH_Hemah_%28Hero%29), Kael Coalbane (http://civ4wiki.com/wiki/index.php/FfH_Kael_Coalbane_%28Hero%29).

Unusual arcane spellcasters:
Eater of Dreams (http://civ4wiki.com/wiki/index.php/FfH_Eater_of_Dreams_%28Unit%29) (can cast Consume Soul)
Summoner (Hippus) (http://civ4wiki.com/wiki/index.php/FfH_Summoner_%28Hippus%29_%28Unit%29) - gets Air III for free.
Can cast spells in flames (http://civ4wiki.com/wiki/index.php/FfH_Flames_%28Terrain_Feature%29) without additional promotions (this can be great for defending your arcane units):
Imp (http://civ4wiki.com/wiki/index.php/FfH_Imp_%28Unit%29)
Orc Witch Doctor (http://civ4wiki.com/wiki/index.php/FfH_Orc_Witch_Doctor_%28Unit%29)
Shaman (Clan of Embers) (http://civ4wiki.com/wiki/index.php/FfH_Shaman_%28Clan_of_Embers%29_%28Unit%29)
I'd probably ignore the Wizard (http://civ4wiki.com/wiki/index.php/FfH_Wizard_%28Unit%29)(or make a minor note of it). The ability to cast 2 spells once isn't that big of a deal.

Grey Fox
Jun 16, 2007, 02:28 PM
[/URL]
I'd probably ignore the [URL="http://civ4wiki.com/wiki/index.php/FfH_Wizard_%28Unit%29"]Wizard (http://civ4wiki.com/wiki/index.php/FfH_Shaman_%28Clan_of_Embers%29_%28Unit%29)(or make a minor note of it). The ability to cast 2 spells once isn't that big of a deal.

Wizards are more than just that. They are Amurites, and Amurites got the Cave of Ancestors, which mean that you can make wizards in 2 turns.

katika
Jun 16, 2007, 02:51 PM
Also, some summons (sand lions for sure) gain the Stigmata promotion if summoned on Hell terrain. If you're playing Sheaim (or fighting them), that can be a nice bonus.

xanaqui42
Jun 17, 2007, 08:26 AM
Also, some summons (sand lions for sure) gain the Stigmata promotion if summoned on Hell terrain. If you're playing Sheaim (or fighting them), that can be a nice bonus.

Specifically, Sand Lions need to be summoned on Burning Sands for the bonus. Fire Elementals gain strength from being summoned in Flames.

xanaqui42
Jun 17, 2007, 08:35 AM
Wizards are more than just that. They are Amurites, and Amurites got the Cave of Ancestors, which mean that you can make wizards in 2 turns.

Heh- that points out a few multi-player exploits. Player 1 is Amurites; Player 2 is Calabim. The Amurites player creates the Adepts, then hands them over to the Calabim once they are LV 6. The Calabim grants them Vampirism, then levels them through the moon, and grants them to whatever player can use them the best.

Alternatively, instead of the Calabim, use any Leader with Summoning, and make it a 1-way proposition. Roughly trippling the power of each unit is pretty nice.

And, of course, lending Adept-class units to an Arcane leader can be rather useful while they're leveling up.

kenken244
Jun 17, 2007, 09:46 AM
or like grigori calabim and sheiam gets you level 65474564 twincasting eaters of dreams

CuteKills
Jun 18, 2007, 08:19 AM
The best choice for a mage heavy approach is: Cabalim with Overlords.

Graft flesh your new archmage (10+ promotions) with a high strength unit



A Kraken is a good choice....

1) Strong (Perm summons)
2) Free
3) Gives the Golem HN too!

Bastian-Bux
Jun 18, 2007, 10:13 AM
Haven't tried Kraken yet, I prefer great Werewolves for this. But aren't Kraken flesh golem water bound?

Nikis-Knight
Jun 18, 2007, 10:46 PM
No, because the flesh golem would be what determines the unit type/domain.

But it would start to stink quicker than usual, I fear...

CuteKills
Jun 19, 2007, 02:32 AM
... and you can Mutate them, too.

Being a summons, you can just delete the "damaged goods", and keep the better ones...

Vulcans
Jun 21, 2007, 04:00 AM
that's way overpowered!
something has to be done about the flesh graft spell.
it was intended as a bypass for the unit limit. but has made it possible to combine impossible combinations together.

i think the main problem comes from combining promotions from different units.

this should be removed by the developers

eg keeps promotion of only one unit.

or it changes only one unit into a flesh golem that doesn't count for the national limit, and doesn't gain experiance.

Ringtailed
Jun 21, 2007, 08:01 PM
Flesh Golems have been brought up in the past... some say they're overpowered, but IMO they are not a game winner. On their own, flesh golems are all but useless and they require a tier4 unit to create them... the only way that they're good is when you research *other* tier 4 units to graft (archmages, mostly). Usually though, if you get 3-6 archmages and send them on the offensive along with some tier3 escorts like macemen or rangers, you could have won and not needed to bother with the golems.

that's just my experience, though.

kenken244
Jun 25, 2007, 03:07 PM
maybe just give flesho golems a somewhat higher national limit

jwin
Jun 25, 2007, 04:02 PM
I think they should cause unhappiness. After all, you are taking perfectly healthy people and turning them into Frankenstein's monsters. Eventually, someone would say something and get a little upset.

Sureshot
Jun 25, 2007, 06:43 PM
either national units should be unusable for flesh golems or there should be a national limit on flesh golems.

otherwise they allow circumventing the national limit.

gifting used to allow circumventing the national limit, but now national units can't be gifted.

CuteKills
Jun 27, 2007, 07:04 AM
either national units should be unusable for flesh golems or there should be a national limit on flesh golems.

otherwise they allow circumventing the national limit.

gifting used to allow circumventing the national limit, but now national units can't be gifted.

Hmm...

If you deny national units, the Graft Flesh spell becomes pretty pointless, IMO, as you might as well just build the source units, and keep the ability to gain xp, heal faster, and so forth.

National Limit on FG's? Maybe, but I have to say that the sheer time it takes is quite a big restriction as things stand.

Grey Fox
Jun 27, 2007, 09:07 AM
I'd say that making flesh golems out of two national units like an Archmage and something else is a Double win thing. It may be overpowered, but at that stage you might already have won anyways. So it's just a thing to make you win faster.

Double wins are good, they make the suffering of the losing part go faster instead of slow and painful ;)

Sureshot
Jun 28, 2007, 08:02 AM
Hmm...

If you deny national units, the Graft Flesh spell becomes pretty pointless, IMO, as you might as well just build the source units, and keep the ability to gain xp, heal faster, and so forth.

National Limit on FG's? Maybe, but I have to say that the sheer time it takes is quite a big restriction as things stand.

They get the Golem promotion, no?
That means immunity to death and poison, and living past armageddon events and other things that only affect living units.

Making crosses of Arquebus's and Mages would be useful (6 strength casters, better than firebows heh), as would priest/mage combos to gain access to all level 2 divine spells even outside your religion.

Even without national units the whole process allows for a lot of sick combos, allowing national units in it just breaks the national limit as is.

CuteKills
Jun 29, 2007, 03:09 AM
They get the Golem promotion, no?
That means immunity to death and poison, and living past armageddon events and other things that only affect living units.

Making crosses of Arquebus's and Mages would be useful (6 strength casters, better than firebows heh), as would priest/mage combos to gain access to all level 2 divine spells even outside your religion.

Even without national units the whole process allows for a lot of sick combos, allowing national units in it just breaks the national limit as is.

Immunity to death/poison in exchange for low healing rates and no xp gain. I personally wouldn't like to try to have the bulk of my garrisons built that way!

Also expensive, as you get one unit for the cost of two.

Aq+Mage tougher than a mage, true. The "no xp" is the biggest problem - even if it wins fights, it's not going to profit much. Against shadows/assassins, it would be useful.

Giving access to other divine spheres /is/ a good option (one I'd considered, in fact, but never got round to actually trying...) Of course from a flavour point of view, you could argue that even if it does work, it probably shouldn't - why would a god start handing out power to those who aren't his?

Sureshot
Jun 29, 2007, 03:33 AM
xp gain isn't such an amazing thing once you've reached a certain point. also note that gaining promotions has diminishing results, a process which you can expedite by making a flesh golem.

it is quicker to make a fire2, death2, spell extension1 mage (level 5 - 17xp) and a combat 5 arquebus (level 6 - 26xp) and then flesh golem them, then it would to make a fire2, death2, spell extension2, combat5 mage (level 10 - 82xp).

thats 17+26=43xp versus 82xp. less xp needed, and higher strength (assassins won't be taking out effective 12 strength units easily, and even shadows would have a hard time of it, and in cities you have the definitive upper hand against them).

with 3 mana of each type used and aggressive you could even make that same thing with a 10xp mage and 17xp arquebus, having a flesh golem with access to mage spells of any of the manas for 27xp total (20 of which can be gotten for free with the right civics and buildings).

and when armageddon comes they're untouched. sheaim with hordes of flesh golem conjurers is still sick lol, after armageddon its sicker, and thats without bypassing the national limit.


about "expensive, as you get one unit for the cost of two", its actually cheaper, because maintenance is the true problem not production, and you effectively get two units for the price of one once you combine them.

xAlephx
Jun 29, 2007, 11:24 AM
Calabim / OO flesh golems are probably still a little OP for the point in the game, even given the techs required to grab Vampire Lords and Kraken. Unlimited troops with the skillsets of Level 20 Vampire Lords, base strength around 12, and the golem promotion are probably pushing it.

On the other hand, it competes with Calabim / AV, which has to be a good thing.

CuteKills
Jun 29, 2007, 04:03 PM
Firstly, thanks for the comments on all this, it's nice, as it gives some insights into the approaches others use.

Given the arquebus case, I'd have to comment I don't seem to have a huge excess of combat 5 units in most games.... :)

If you're looking for minimax type efficiency, I guess you'd use 2x mages or mage + priest. After all they gain xp as they go, and until they get to a certain point, they aren't all that useful. So give one mana spheres, and the other just combat levels... the result's physically puny, but you wouldn't be doing fisticuffs with it with it out of choice anyway, would you?

kenken244
Jul 02, 2007, 05:48 PM
i think it could be something like move all the promotions of the first unit onto the second unit but the second unit looses all those prootions.so it illiminates getting more divine spells and other promotion wierdynessessessess

CuteKills
Jul 03, 2007, 04:36 AM
A couple of things occurred to me (apart from that we should probably move this to another thread :) )

The issues really aren't just National units at all: it's inherent in the nature of the FG.

Some approaches that could be used (which hopefully don't destroy the flavour too much...)

[1] Make them hazardous.
Assuming a "Frankenstein's Monster" theme here, why not give any FG a chance of insanity each turn (need not be high), proportional to the number of promotions and/or STR it has?

You could further give the insane golem Cannibalism, amalgamating with other flesh golems, and/or spreading the "rebellion" to other FGs.

[2] Make them high-maintenance
Another possibility would be to give the Golem no healing at all, and require use of "Create Golem" with another living unit just to repair it. (it won't get promotions - it just gets health).


-

Chandrasekhar
Jul 03, 2007, 09:41 AM
Flesh golems being able to cast spells has never made much sense to me in the first place. Take away their spellcasting ability, and they become much less 'sploity.

feydras
Jul 04, 2007, 03:32 AM
I agree that Flesh Golems feel a bit wonky and require a lot of micromanagment to fully utilize. Something the AI can't manage i'm sure. I love toying with the options at times, but similar to all the Tier 4 choices at end game it usually just ends up stressing me out.

Taking away spellcasting makes the most sense to me. But I also like the idea of Flesh Golems causing unhappiness. This is pretty logical and could be an interesting balancing mechanic.

Whenever i'm about to graft an archmage to something i always picture the terrified face of the archmage as he gets the message that the High Priest of OO wants to meet with him to discuss maximizing his potential.

- feydras

MagisterCultuum
Jul 04, 2007, 09:47 AM
I don't really understand why flesh golems should be immune to disease/plague/poison. Aren't the other golems immune because they are inorganic. Flesh golems should be kept as they are, but "isLiving" should return true for them despite their golem promo (although they probably should still not be able to be grafted with other units, lest you cheaply get units that can cast every spell in the game)

Also, the Mokka's cauldron units really should be undead, not golems. If nothing else, that code should remove the flesh golem's golem promo and add undead

Grey Fox
Jul 04, 2007, 10:16 AM
What is flesh if not a material? Does the golem have to be alive just cause it is made out of the flesh of two living units? :P

MagisterCultuum
Jul 04, 2007, 10:39 AM
Not necessarily alive (although possibly), but still the flesh would be at least as vulnerable to at least some types of viruses, bacteria, and poisons as iron is to rust.

xAlephx
Jul 04, 2007, 12:27 PM
Dead flesh animated by magic would not necessarily be vulnerable to virii or poison. Virii rely on interrupting the genetic factories of the cell and making them replicate the virii - I don't see this happening in flesh golems. Poisons - well, I wouldn't see nerve toxins affecting flesh golems, but blood poisons might still damage the creature's raw materials. Bacteria... probably not the illnesses that living beings get, possibly some rotting/breakdown type bacteria (although I assume flesh golems are preserved in some way to prevent this).

Nikis-Knight
Jul 06, 2007, 03:03 PM
Oh man, just thinking of a flesh golem as a walking bacteria factory makes my stomach churn. Maybe they should give massive unhealth when inside cities...

kumquatelvis
Jul 23, 2007, 12:09 PM
The fact that three High Priests working together can churn out a size 13 flesh golem each and every turn is a bit much. Especially with Barnaxus empowering them all.

vivictius
Jul 23, 2007, 09:01 PM
IIRC Barnaxus doesnt empower flesh golems.