This thread is for brainstorming and sharing research.


I am unhappy with the selection of both the Byzantines and the Holy Roman Empire, as, in my personal opinion, neither is a civilization at all. I shall be removing them, and replacing them with more worthy candidates. However, I'm a modding noob, and I realize that there are certain civs people would've liked to see, so I want to make my work available as a mod comp, preferably with a version for having no Byzies or.....(see what I mean?) and a version with them, as some people will want as many choices as possible.

Civilizations I am considering...
-At least one additional South East Asian civilization
-One additional Mesopotamian civ(Hittites, perhaps)
-At least one group to represent the Polynesians
-Poland

Suggestions other than Austria are welcome, and suggestions for leaders, UUs, and UBs are welcome as well. I also plan on modding leader traits, and perhaps including additional leaders for pre-existing civs. Provide sources if possible, preferably not Wikipedia. Restrictions are:
-I will NOT include multiple UUs or UBs
-I will NOT alter the core gameplay
- I will NOT exceed 2 leaders per civ except in special circumstances. Additional leaders above the 2nd should be extremely influential. Yes, I am considering adding Hitler.

How this list?
-Europe(+1)
Poland
HRE---->Franks(funny how a little name change makes it better and more accurate)

-North America(+2)
Sioux/Lakota(already done other than the UB!)
Iroquios(did I spell that right?)
Shawnee(Tecumseh fascinates me. Correct me if I'm wrong.)

-Africa
Any suggestions? Please back them up with something to impress me with.

Middle East
-Israel(Solomon or David...and some one later. A Founding Father of modern Israel, perhaps. Remember, make a convincing case, and the candidate has to be dead and buried.)

Asia
-Vietnam
Any suggestions?

Polynesians
Anyone know much about them?

What's the scope? Are you just going to change civs and leaders or are you going to be introducing some new concepts, units, and city improvements as well?

What's the scope? Are you just going to change civs and leaders or are you going to be introducing some new concepts, units, and city improvements as well?

What he said

Well, I don't know. My modding experience is limited. I absolutely love the core game, so I'm not keen on messing with it too much....but I am thinking on an archery range...a stable for archery units. Comes at archery, obsolete at gunpowder. Speaking of archers...I've always wanted to do something to make them not suck, and I've always been annoyed that there aren't any skirmishers. Or melee cavalry until knights. And I've decided I won't remove the Byzies and I'll rename the HRE.....

If you just want new Civs then look to the CivGold project, they have done all those civs for Warlords and will certainly port them to BtS.

I'm going to be modifying my game myself anyways....which is why I'm doing this. I have my own ideas, and my own visions, and I want to enact them, though I'd prefer not to have to fumble around in the dark with it myself, as some of my UU modding has shown. But others often have excellent ideas too, and I figure I may as well share what I do, and make a proper mod of it.
So, let me make a list of things I've thought of...

-Archery Range, a stable for Archery units. They certainly need it, as archery units outside the crossbow tend to be next to useless.

-Skirmishers: Make them a threat to axes and swords, and have archers counter them, so you actually have a reason to research archery? They'd come with Hunting(and maybe something else?), 3 or 4 strength, with some sort of sizable melee bonus, with a unique promotions tree.

-Melee Cavalry: Maybe Cataphracts, or some other generic heavy cavalry? They're really the only thing I can think of that was used heavily in a lot of different places. Civs from China to the Greek Successors to the Byzies. Iron Working+Horseback Riding required

-Tanks: Since when were tanks the unit of choice for city-raiding? How many times have you heard of tanks crushing cities beneath their treads? Last I heard, the last thing you wanted a tank to do was roll around hostile city streets....

-Helicopters: We could use a transport one. I could care less about Paratroopers, why don't we remove them and make it into a promotion? Or make it a promotion and the Paratroopers start with it, a la Marines? Yeah, that sounds decent to me.

-Leaders
Spain: Philip II? He brought Spain to its greatest glory...and of course brought it all crashing down, but we can blame that partly on bad weather.

Japan: Meiji. Like Hirohito, he's just a symbol. Unlike Hirohito, he's a positive symbol...and could actually be completely Toku's opposite. Or we could forego symbols entirely and use an actual leader....

China: Kiss protective good-bye, is all I'm saying.

Korea: I have no idea.

Maya: ''

Aztec: We'll just change him to Montezuma I and no one will notice, except we'll change the civilopedia. I hate using losers when you have winners...especially a winner with the same fricking name, and no one's going to know one Monty from the other. I hear Ahuizotl...I still need to research this stuff.

Inca: Some one before Capac, as after has the Incans getting destroyed.

Carthage: Dido? Eh...

Mali: Didn't everyone's favorite tech monger rule for 80 years and encompass both Mali's rise to prominence and its age of dominance....and then after it all went to hell? I remember reading something about it, and I think that was the gist of it.

Obviously, the expansion civs will need additional leaders as well...I'm sure I missed something too...

For what it's worth, the Mali empire dominated the region for a good 200-300 years. Before that was the Ghana empire, and after that was the Songhai. They pretty much fell from grace due to repeated wars with outsiders, and economic stagnation. Musa ruled for about 25 years at one of its peaks (80 years? man, that would have to be one healthy dude).

For what it's worth, the Mali empire dominated the region for a good 200-300 years. Before that was the Ghana empire, and after that was the Songhai. They pretty much fell from grace due to repeated wars with outsiders, and economic stagnation. Musa ruled for about 25 years at one of its peaks (80 years? man, that would have to be one healthy dude).
Oh, right. He ruled until he was in his 80s or something...that's where it came from. Silly me...I know about the other two, but it's far from being my forte...

put in Veitnam. :D and another Chinese leader. :D

put in Veitnam. :D and another Chinese leader. :D
I'm unsure about another Chinese leader....but I am including Vietnam. I wanted two civs for Southeast Asia(and stand by that, if "Germany Version Alpha" and "Greeks who called themselves Roman" were the best they could come up with:rolleyes: )

actually, i myself am planning a BtS mod too. but its supposed to be top secret. :D

you probably will finish yours first though, thats okay, cause you will get the "Boos!" first and they wont care about mine. :joke: and you shuold include another Chinese leader, and probably a Roman one too.

The middle-east is still chock-full of unused civilizations.

Phoenicians?
Hittites?
Sumerians?
Etruscans? (they did get merged into the Romans)

Then there is the Swiss.

(the above list generated by looking at a list of important inventions, and listing civilizations I don't recognize from Civ4 Warlords).

A benchmark of about 10 new civilizations is good. Here are some ideas...
1. Poland (if you dont..)
2. Vietnam (Because I myself am Vietnamese, and feel as if they were immensely more significant than the Khmer)
3. A Mesopotomian civilization. The Phoenicians > Hittites, albeit I have no idea who their leader could be)
4. Israel David Ben-Gurion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Ben-Gurion), perhaps? He's pretty much the only candidate if you want to consider modern Israeli figures. I would be more inclined to go with him than the mythicized accounts of the ancient Jewish kings.
5. Iroquois and/or Shawnee If you're going to get rid of the Holy Roman tag, it would be nice to get rid of the Native American one too...good job with that Firaxis :rolleyes:
6. Siam (Mongkut)
7. Argentina, or Brazil - The Inca shouldn't be the only South American civ
8. Another African civ - The Ghana and the Songhai were both great empires, unfortunately Mali already represents that area of Africa. You could try Central Africa, Great Zimbabwe or Kingdom of the Kongo were both notable civilizations, though both are lacking in capable leaders. Or, if for post-colonial leaders, if you dont' want to use Mandela, Kwame Nkrumah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kwame_Nkrumah) was awfully influential.
9. Another European civ - A lot of choices - Austrian, Scottish, Irish, Romanian, Bulgarian, Swedish, Swiss, possibilities are endless...
10. Another Asian civ - Hmm, Sargon the Great (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sargon_the_Great) is one of the most important people in history that hasn't been in Civ yet, maybe the Akkadian empire? Don't know if it's an important enough civilization to be considered, I don't really know what else you could add...

Either way, it's just up to you. I'd strongly suggest that you add a 3rd Chinese leader if you're still on the fence about that though - they're probably the most important civilization of all time, and that they don't have three leaders while America, England, France, and Russia do is borderline ridiculous.

2. Vietnam (Because I myself am Vietnamese, and feel as if they were immensely more significant than the Khmer)

here here! im viet too!


I'd strongly suggest that you add a 3rd Chinese leader if you're still on the fence about that though - they're probably the most important civilization of all time, and that they don't have three leaders while America, England, France, and Russia do is borderline ridiculous.

here here!

Oh, I love China, personally, and am generally annoyed with Western Narcissism and tendency to lump Asia together in their minds. I'm of European descent myself, so you don't need to be Asian to appreciate Asia. It's just I don't condone the practice as long as civs like Spain are being shafted, but this is a mod and I'm going to be fixing the injustice...so what the hell? I'm tempted to offer a Han emperor or a Ming one. Probably Han though, definitely the height of China's glory, in my mind...

here are a few choices:

- Taizong (Tang emperor_
- Xuanzong (Tang emperor)
- Zhu Yongle (Ming emperor)
- Taizong/Taizu - forgot which - (Song emperor)
- Wudi (Han Emperor)
- Wu Zeitian (woman emperor :D )
- Kangxi (Qing emperor)
- Qianlong (Qing emperor)
- Huangdi (the Yellow emperor, not QSH)

tonsa choices there! and thats just the tip of the iceberg!

Korea could use Gwanggaeto of Goguryeo or Sejong the Great of Joseon as new leaders.

I am unhappy with the selection of both the Byzantines and the Holy Roman Empire, as, in my personal opinion, neither is a civilization at all.

:agree:

Civilizations I am considering...
-At least one additional South East Asian civilization
-One additional Mesopotamian civ(Hittites, perhaps)
-At least one group to represent the Polynesians
-Poland

There has been an excellent Polish civilization mod (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=144016) made for warlords that I'm sure will help. Best new civilization mod ever made, imho.

:agree:



There has been an excellent Polish civilization mod (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=144016) made for warlords that I'm sure will help. Best new civilization mod ever made, imho.
Hah! So great minds think alike. I tried it out and was quite impressed, I must admit. It's especially useful because I have zero experience using any sort of imaging program, and I'm not so driven I would learn to do so simply to mod(though XML, like I said, is easy enough to grasp...it even refers you to the exact location of your errors:) )

Hah! So great minds think alike. I tried it out and was quite impressed, I must admit. It's especially useful because I have zero experience using any sort of imaging program, and I'm not so driven I would learn to do so simply to mod(though XML, like I said, is easy enough to grasp...it even refers you to the exact location of your errors:) )

Your welcome. The Poland mod is awesome since it is probably one of the few that includes unique leader music and unit sounds.

By the way, if you want another Southeast Asian civ, could you also consider Malaysia or Indonesia? That area is still going unrepresented.

I've done some thinking....

Chinese: How could I forget Tang Taizong? He'll definitely be their third leader. I'll also be reworking the other two...both their traits and their personalities. Qin isn't psychotic enough for my liking, for example. I predict Taizong will be the easiest to get along with, but China will generally be annoying:backstab:

Buildings: An archery range or something like that, that comes with Archery...and something else, preferably. The AI starts with Archery on higher difficulties, after all, and I don't want to make axe rushes completely pointless. Maybe Mathematics?

Skirmishers: They'd be 4-strength archers with a first strike, a withdrawal chance, and an attack bonus against melee(like chariots against axes), who would be countered by archers(or horse archers, for that matter.) Mali's UU would replace this instead of the archer, or be moved into the medieval age.

Horse Archers: Would get a first strike. They're fricking archers. Might lose immunity to first strikes, for balance, and they can easily get that back from Flanking.

Praetorians: Become 7 strength legionaires with a first strike(the pila). Similarly, the Gallic Warrior would lose the innate swordsman bonus against cities, but pick up a first strike(as the Celts also threw javelins before a charge, and, in fact, this where the Romans got the idea from.)

Techs: Maybe I should add some new ones? Like, for military. Wouldn't a civilization need to learn to organize one to have anything other than archers, spearmen, and skirmishers? It seems to me that axemen and swordsmen are abstractions for more advanced infantry, and you can't have untrained charioteers.

I actually have quite a few books I'm reading about historical subjects, and may still have the text book for the class on Native Americans I took. I'd much prefer hard-copy sources to something like Wikipedia, as that can be unreliable and generally isn't as detailed as I would like. I'm a history major, so I figure I might as well practice the craft...

Yup thx for adding Poland - it's real country that lacks in europe. The've put HRE, Byzantium wich are represanted by Germany and Rome. They doubled also Babilonians adding Sumerians - they could put more variety of nations instead.

I've been debating the list of civs for bts for like ever, so take it from me that these are the civs who should be in you mod.

1. Poland
2. Austria
3. Polynesia
4. Kongo (to fill in the center of Africa in World Map)
5. Vietnam/Siam (Which ever one you would like.) (also are you getting rid of the Khemr?)
6. Venezuela or Gran Colombia
7. Brazil
8. Isreal
9. Hittites

(South America should have 3 Empires. 1 for the North, 1 for the East, and 1 for the South and West. Respectively Venezuela, Inca and Brazil)

Now your taking away the HRE are you? So what are you going to replace it with?

Here are two ideas: The Swahili and Prussia.

Now you might as well get rid of that pesky Native Americans to.

I suggest adding 2 Civs. Sioux would be good. Iroquois could be the other one. I don't know what a third would be though. 2 Are good enough.

And another idea, How about Renaming the Vikings to the Scandinavians. If not please add Sweden/Scandinavians as well.

That would bring the total up to:

1. Poland
2. Austria
3. Polynesia
4. Kongo
5. Vietnam/Siam
6. Venezuela or Gran Colombia
7. Brazil
8. Isreal
9. Hittites
10. Swahili/Prussia
11. Sioux
12. Iroquois
13. Sweden/Scandinavia (optional if you don't rename the Vikings)

With a Minimum of 12 civs and a Maximum of 16 civs. I give you my Civ list.

I'd like to pitch in on the mod as well.

just some (perhaps useless) advice. if an objective of the mod includes world representation, certain civs wil need to be put in to fill up space. this would include:

- Polynesia, for Oceania
- Another SE Asian civ - Thailand, Vietnam, or Indonesia, or maybe even two
- At least one African civ, preferbly one to take the middle of Africa, like the Swahili or Congonese or the Maasai
- Split up the NA - that should be at least two civs, three or four would be good - good choices (in my opinion) are the Sioux, Iroqouis, Cherokee, Apache/Navajo/Anaszi, Missipans (though we don't know their leader names)
- At least one extra civ for South America
- A Eastern European civ
- and maybe, some civ in Central Asia, in the area around Kazakhstan and Xinjiang (Western China) - maybe Tibet or the Turkmens

just some advice, disregard it if you see fit. anyhow, i don't think i can he im planning a BtS mod of my own, but thats better, because theyre'd be more variety for the customer.

Sticking with my list would be a pretty decent way to represent the world.

Mainly because we don't need to have a central asian civ.

And at cybrxkhan Swahili is on the coast, not in the middle.

i know Swahili are on the coast, but being pressured by Ethiopia and Zululand on both top and botton, they have no choice but to expand into the center.\

and im not going to argue whose list is better to represent the world, but ours is DEFINITELY both better than Firaxis'. ;)

That's why i said the Swahili would add more flavor to the world map. (if Congo i also put in the game)

You have Ethiopia to the north, Zulu to the south, Mali to the east, Congo to th middle and south east, and Swahili to the Southwest.

http://i13.tinypic.com/4uad0df.png

This is a map of how the game will eventually look like with those african empires.

the Congo and Swahili would take Central Africa... yes, yes, yes, but that is how i argue for the Central Asian civ. sure, Persia will take most of the southern part, but that still leaves the northern and eastern parts untaken... and then don't forget Tibet...

Was Kazakhstan and Tibet ever important enough to be in the game?

oooh... wanna start a Quote Wars??? yipee! :)


Was Kazakhstan and Tibet ever important enough to be in the game?

Turkmenistan/Timurids is what i meant not Kazakhstan.

and Turkmens/Tibetans they were as important as the Polynesians or the Khmer or the Zulus.

but Kazakhstan gave us Borat! ;)

I've decided to make the HRE into Franks, and change their UU and UB, if I find them not Frankish enough. I hate the inclusion of the HRE, but I like having Charlemagne, so I'll do it right, I figure.:)

As for other civilizations, I am planning on the Polynesians, possibly in multiple forms, if the sources hold up(which I doubt.) They're one of the most important civs missing, IMO. They were one of the most widespread and successful ethnic groups. Predictably, they'd be geared towards the sea.

Otherwise, I'm up in the air, really. I don't want to put too much on my plate before I actually start, and I don't have a clue as leaderheads...but I suppose I'll use still images until I play with it myself or get some one who has a clue on that front...

Except who else is going to represent southern Africa? Fireaxis screwed up with the Khmer. Nam and Siam are much better deserving. Polynesians were really advance. They sailed from Fiji to the Americas in canoes!

I have never even heard of the Timurids. Is that like some kind of Mongol Khanite or something? Besides we're going for fun factor. Turkmenistan will never be funner to play with then the polynesians. :D

In fact my spell check doesn't even recognize the Timurids. yes Cybrkxhan. they are very important. :lol:

I'm not here to argue on what's a better candidate. I'm here to help the mod pack.

Me and cybrxkhan will help you with the leaders and uu+ub. Take our civ list. (don't take Turkmenistan and Timurid's though. (bad choice :lol: ) )

oh, no, i won't do any work. i'm making a mod of my own. :D

anyhow, the Timurids were led by Tamerlame. look him up, you should find the Mao/Stalin of the Medieval Era (and its not Genghis Khan either)...

anyhow, im not here to argue whats better or whats not. thats up to Lance of Llwarnawery. :D

1. Poland-:goodjob:
2. Austria- No thanks. One German civ is enough!
3. Polynesia- A given...though I am unsure of what form they would take.
4. Kongo- :confused:
5. Vietnam/Siam- Maybe both.
6. Venezuela or Gran Colombia- Gran Colombia. It works better as an abstraction of most of more modern South America.
7. Brazil- Why?
8. Isreal- Yep.
9. Hittites- Hmmm.
10. Swahili/Prussia- Ehh...definitely no Prussia.
11. Sioux- Yes. They're already almost done.
12. Iroquois- IMO, the tribe they should've done.
13. Sweden/Scandinavia (optional if you don't rename the Vikings)- Hmmm.

I don't plan on adding tons of civs, and I plan on adding them in stages. I also plan on modding leader personalities. Because China keeps coming up. I lied, by the way....

Emperor Qin(Agg/Pro)- Paranoid back-stabber. Decent trade partner, but ultimately, he's out for himself, and you're deadmeat the moment he sees any advantage in getting rid of you. Despite being selfish, he is very defiant and would be at best an unruly vassal, and hard to tame. Geared towards making war. Aggressive represents his policies towards his enemies, and his aggressive campaigns in seeking their destruction, and Protective portrays his own paranoia as well as his tendencies towards lands outside his domain. Favored Civic: Vassalage

Mao Zedong(Imp/Org)- Also untrustworthy. Easy to get along with, but difficult to get along with well. Very cool, not terribly bothered by most demerits, but also not lending much weight to merits as well. Very willing to debase himself if necessary for his own survival, but recalcitrant in serving any master other than himself. I plan on Imperialist carrying espionage benefits(if it doesn't already), and it fits his chauvinistic policies towards the Nationalists(even with Japan on their doorstep) as well as the expansive and destructive moling the CCPs carried out on the Nationalists, as well Mao's brutal and far-reaching counter-intelligence methods. It also helps that Maoist China had a penchant for interfering in the affairs of neighbouring nations. Organized because the entire party and state apparatus answered to Mao, and Mao alone. Geared towards expansion and general meddling. Favored Civic: Police State. This is because the Maoist state wasn't very communist, but incredibly authoritarian.

Emperor Tang Taizong(Fin/(Exp)(Imp)- Presided over one of China's golden ages. Financial to reflect the wealth of the Chinese state during his reign. Either Expansive or Imperialist fits(I can't think of a good Chinese leader that couldn't fit Imperialist). Leaning towards Expansive, for maximal building benefit. Generally warm and easy to get along with, though certainly no push-over. Favored Civic: Beuracracy

@TheLastOne36: Nubia isn't in your map. It should be south of Egypt, encompassing present-day Sudan. Nubia was a significant local power in the region. It was a vassal of Egypt at various points in history, but was also powerful enough to conquer Egypt and establish its own dynasty there. Nubians also built the most pyramids in Africa.

that map shows how the empires would look like on a world map game. I think Nubia would be overcrowding it.

i would love Nubia too, and im putting it in MY mod. but if you're doing a world map, it may overcrowd the area between Egypt and Ethiopia

Celtia
UU: Gallic Warrior, replaces Swordsman: 6 Str, starts with Guerilla 1 promotion, can promote down Guerilla line, 1 first strike
UB: Dun, grants free Guerilla 1 promotion, increased defensive bonus vs. normal Wall

Leaders
Brennus(Spi/Chm)- He'll be a lot more reasonable. The historical Brennus appears to have attacked Rome because Roman emissaries mediating between his army and the city he was besieging openly fought on the side of the defense. Angered by their arrogance and disregard for accepted diplomatic rules, he marched upon Rome, and Rome alone....he hardly touched the other Italics. Once the city was conquered, he merely occupied it and left once Rome had paid a sizable indemnity. Though Celts were certainly spiritual people, they also appeared to have been open to other belief systems, like most Indo-European traditions, and there is certainly no evidence that Brennus was some sort of fanatic. He will be an honorable and friendly leader, but dangerous when angered. Favored Civic: Representation

Boudicca(Agg/Chm)- May be changed...I don't know. Need to see what Firaxis did with her.