Who would you prefer over Holy Roman Empire?

Israel, no contest. That's assuming Ethiopia and a SE Asian civ will be in (we already know the latter will).

If Ethiopia and a South-Asian civ are included, I don't need to replace the Holy Roman Empire with anything.
If you really want me to name something, I think another North-East Afican civ would be nice. The Berbers or the Moors. Otherwise maybe a 'Polynesian Civ' (I don't know which though).

I said which one would you prefer instead of the Holy Roman Empire. Just curious to see what were the ones which people wanted instead of the HRE.

I'm not too bothered that HRE are in, although I will be bitterly dissapointed if Ethiopia are snubbed.

Assuming that Ethiopia are included, I would prefer to see either Kongo, Brazil, Dacia or Poland, with Kongo being my first choice. But like I said, I'm not really too bothered, aslong as Ethiopia is in.

I'm happy to see The Holy Roman Empire in the expansion, if it wasn't I'd have said Israel.

I'm not bothered about it either, and I'm basically assuming that Ethiopia is a given. All other things being equal, if it came down to a choice between Israel and HRE, I'd pick Israel.

HRE wouldn't have been my first choice, personally i find Hittites, Ethiopia or Israel to be a better choice.What i find more wrong is Charlemagne as leader, Barbarossa would have been a lot better leader.
BTW i don't understand all this whining about HRE it's just a civ, there are things a lot more important like features.

Stay with Holy Roman Empire.

but if i really have to replace it... then maybe austria or israel

I don't know about hittites. With Sumeria and Babylon in the expansion, Ottoman has a new leader and persia is likely to get a new leader, Hittites don't seem like the best option to me.

Hittites were the first to forge Iron weapons and in their age were really a powerful civ.
If they are not in BtS they will be the only MUST BE IN civ which hasn't made an appearance.

Hittites were the first to forge Iron weapons and in their age were really a powerful civ.
If they are not in BtS they will be the only MUST BE IN civ which hasn't made an appearance.

then take Sumeria out.

I don't care much about the Hittites. We already have so many civs from that region. If they really want to be in the game, they shouldn't have wasted their time forging iron weapons, but started a petition.

I would rather have Ethiopia and a South-Asian civ than the Hittites.

WOOT! let's show some support for Venezuela and Simon Bolivar!

Simon Bolivar was in another Sid Meier game... Colonization. :D

Austrians or Hebrews

Yay poland's winning. Well i thought that Austria would win.

I think, it was long time overdue to implement the HRE.

Now there still are Prussia and Austria-Hungary missing, then the important European nations are in the game.

then take Sumeria out.

Sumer was the FIRST civilization. They contributed more to advance the cause of civilization than any other, except perhaps the Greeks. I offer the following for consideration (from Wikipedia admittedly, but these statements are easily verified):


"Examples of Sumerian technology include: the wheel, cuneiform, arithmetic and geometry, irrigation systems, sumerian boats, lunisolar calendar, bronze, leather, saws, chisels, hammers, braces, bits, nails, pins, rings, hoes, axes, knives, lancepoints, arrowheads, swords, glue, daggers, waterskins, bags, harnesses, armor, quivers, scabbards, boots, sandal (footwear), harpoons, and beer."

"Sumerians invented picture-hieroglyphs that developed into later cuneiform, and their language vies with Ancient Egyptian for credit as the oldest known written human language."

"Most authorities credit the Sumerians with the invention of the wheel, initially in the form of the potter's wheel. The new concept quickly led to wheeled vehicles and mill wheels. The Sumerians' cuneiform writing system is the oldest there is evidence of (with the possible exception of the highly controversial Old European Script), pre-dating Egyptian hieroglyphics by at least seventy-five years. The Sumerians were among the first astronomers, mapping the stars into sets of constellations, many of which constellations survived in the zodiac and in the constellations known to the ancient Greeks."

"They invented and developed arithmetic using several different number systems including a Mixed radix system with an alternating base 10 and base 6. This sexagesimal system became the standard number system in Sumer and Babylonia. Using this sexagesimal system they invented the clock with its 60 seconds, 60 minutes, and 12 hours, and the 12 month calendar which is still in use. They may have invented military formations and introduced the basic divisions between infantry, cavalry and archers. They developed the first known codified legal and administrative systems, complete with courts, jails, and government records. The first true city states arose in Sumer, roughly contemporaneously with similar entities in what is now Syria and Israel."

"Finally, the Sumerians ushered in the age of intensive agriculture and irrigation."


In other words, Sumer "deserves" to be in more than any other civ. If anything, Babylon should be taken out and Sumer left in! But I prefer both, as they're sufficiently distinguishable and both left indelible marks on history.

Sumer was the FIRST civilization. They contributed more to advance the cause of civilization than any other, except perhaps the Greeks. I offer the following for consideration (from Wikipedia admittedly, but these statements are easily verified):


"Examples of Sumerian technology include: the wheel, cuneiform, arithmetic and geometry, irrigation systems, sumerian boats, lunisolar calendar, bronze, leather, saws, chisels, hammers, braces, bits, nails, pins, rings, hoes, axes, knives, lancepoints, arrowheads, swords, glue, daggers, waterskins, bags, harnesses, armor, quivers, scabbards, boots, sandal (footwear), harpoons, and beer."

"Sumerians invented picture-hieroglyphs that developed into later cuneiform, and their language vies with Ancient Egyptian for credit as the oldest known written human language."

"Most authorities credit the Sumerians with the invention of the wheel, initially in the form of the potter's wheel. The new concept quickly led to wheeled vehicles and mill wheels. The Sumerians' cuneiform writing system is the oldest there is evidence of (with the possible exception of the highly controversial Old European Script), pre-dating Egyptian hieroglyphics by at least seventy-five years. The Sumerians were among the first astronomers, mapping the stars into sets of constellations, many of which constellations survived in the zodiac and in the constellations known to the ancient Greeks."

"They invented and developed arithmetic using several different number systems including a Mixed radix system with an alternating base 10 and base 6. This sexagesimal system became the standard number system in Sumer and Babylonia. Using this sexagesimal system they invented the clock with its 60 seconds, 60 minutes, and 12 hours, and the 12 month calendar which is still in use. They may have invented military formations and introduced the basic divisions between infantry, cavalry and archers. They developed the first known codified legal and administrative systems, complete with courts, jails, and government records. The first true city states arose in Sumer, roughly contemporaneously with similar entities in what is now Syria and Israel."

"Finally, the Sumerians ushered in the age of intensive agriculture and irrigation."


In other words, Sumer "deserves" to be in more than any other civ. If anything, Babylon should be taken out and Sumer left in! But I prefer both, as they're sufficiently distinguishable and both left indelible marks on history.


I didn't read ur post i just skipped it to say that having 1 or another is enough having both is to much. (for 1 expansion)

Germany also represents Prussia.

Babylon also represents Sumer.

Holy Roman Empire represents Western Europe before the rise of nations like France and Germanic kingdoms.

I don't mind HRE being in the game, but not Sumer and Prussia.

Austria should be in the game because it played a MAJOR part in European politics from 17th - early 20th centuries.

I didn't read ur post i just skipped it
Well, you'll have to learn to live with that. ;)

I say "other". I would have voted for Israel if and only if the civ is designed to start as Ancient Israel with all the wonderful flavour of that kingdom from ancient times.

My second would be a civ from Africa or the Iroquois (changing Sitting Bull to be LH of just the Sioux).

My third choice in lieu of HRE would be Austria.

While I am surprised by the choice of HRE added to the main game, I can live with it as I can always ignore it.

contributed more to advance the cause of civilization than any other, except perhaps the Greeks.

only western civilization, remember... China, India perhaps (there is evidence that Sumer had *some* influence on India), and especially China is at the very least as important as they are...

but the game is "Westerno-centric", so... yea, Sumer is important.

cybrxkhan, everything you've said only strengthens my argument.

Oh i said is that Sumeria Babylon Hittites An Ottoman leader and a likely Persian leader. That would be to much arabia for one expansion.

cybrxkhan, everything you've said only strengthens my argument.

to civilization in general, i think China is equal to Sumer. to Western Civilization, i think China is equal to Sumer.

but, of course, China is still alive. and Sumer didn't really contribute much of Eastern Civilziation, now did it... *shrugs*

China is already in the game. :D ;)
How would you feel if somebody said, "Japan and China are redundant. Let's get rid of China." That's just like Babylon and Sumeria; one grew out of the other, but they're distinct.

As for the Israel/Hittites/Austria issue...

Israel > Austria > Hittites > Poland

:D

How would you feel if somebody said, "Japan and China are redundant. Let's get rid of China." That's just like Babylon and Sumeria; one grew out of the other, but they're distinct.

yea, i see what you mean. you can keep Japan out, but if you take out China, you might as well put in no European or Greco-Roman or Egyptian civs.

you guys know they were actually originally going to put Sumer in the vanilla Civ4? then they screwed the idea... for an expansion!

I would like to have Sweden in.

SUMERIA yes! But, Babylon does it fine for me :) Personally i dont like a lot of the leader per civs. But i accept them, the ones i hate, i just put in as enemies. I dont want to start the ol' israeli-arab debate, but... i wont even say it, you know what i will say, just like having Babylon, Sumer, Assyria, and the Hittites in one game would be a bit much.

Austria - Was the 32nd Civ for Civ 3, so Firaxis knows they exist. Would've been better than HRE.

Hittites - Another Civ used in Civ 3, which would've been better than the HRE.

Another African Civ - Already Carthage, Mali and Zulu, do we need another for a relatively minor continent?

Polynesia - Considering Native Americans is a civ, a possibilty. Maybe a different civ would be better.

Musings on other civs - Australia or Canada maybe, considering the new colonies feature; splitting Native Americans into Sioux and Iroquois wouldve been better... don't like Poland or Israel as civs, overall I guess stay with Holy Roman Empire.

Another African Civ - Already Carthage, Mali and Zulu, do we need another for a relatively minor continent?

Carthage doesn't count. they were more Middle-Eastern-Medditeranean, descended from the Phoenicians.

and the game is "Westerno-centric", so the addition of something else besides another European or Middle Eastern civ is good. Africa wasn't that minor, some of its civilizations were no more minor than the Khmer, Vietnam, the Hittites...

pretty much most of the choices in the poll are much better than the HRE, anyways.

however, we already know that Firaxis hinted an African civ, likely Ethiopia (though I am hoping for Nubia), so i guess we don't need another African civ.

Africa wasn't minor. it had great empires etc. Same as any other continent well sorta.

I would NOT prefer these over the HRE

Austria
Italy
Prussia
Sweden/Denmark
Brazil
Venezuela/Gran Colombia

Any other in the list is fine by me.

Poland
Judea
Austria-Hungary
**

The HRE is a terrible choice as a civ, since it is redundant with Germany, France, and the Netherlands.

the question should be: which nation would you NOT prefer over HRE ;)
.
.
.
not to many i can think of actually :mischief:

Whats the big deal about having more from one region than another. The Middle East is the birthplace of civilization and also the crossraods between the East and West. I completely much agree with all of Gaius Octavius's arguements.

The HRE is in? You're kidding! They're not a civilization. Thats like including the third republic.

Any of them...meaning any other civilization in the history of the world. No matter how small and meaningless. I'm thinking even Micronesia, Zanzibar, and Andorra. Yep, even Canada meaningless.

If the HRE was a dude, I'd punch him in the throat....maybe even the groin. I hate the HRE, I wish it would stop taunting us. If Firaxis includes a satisfaction survey, they'd better get ready for a strongly worded letter. I won't stay silent on this....they owe us now. Big time.

vlade - i like your attidue :)

ps. i always loved that player, especially after he moved to lakers!

I guess Israel or Austria.

Obviously Israel. I don't really have a problem with HRE, but the game needs Israel, Ethiopia, and a southeast asian civ

Any reason Itays in italics?

Haha

It could be because I voted for them.

Nevermind. Gotta have Ittalian Pride.

Canada :P

No, I'm going to beat that horse until it resserects and comes after me.

[Edit] If Italy is added, would Italy and Rome both have the same capital city name? I don't know if that's a good enough reason not to include a civ, but I wonder how they would manage that. Maybe, Old Rome and New Rome?

Canada :P

No, I'm going to beat that horse until it resserects and comes after me.

[Edit] If Italy is added, would Italy and Rome both have the same capital city name? I don't know if that's a good enough reason not to include a civ, but I wonder how they would manage that. Maybe, Old Rome and New Rome?
Venice?
Dunno.
Still, its very annoying that the Italians have never been included.

Where's Australia? Also what I don't is that Rome is already in the game so wouldn't they have been better making Italy or something that is "Beyond the Sword" rather than the Holy Roman Empire?

Get ready for a big read... I'm going to offer my opinion on every poll choice.

I wish I could withdraw/change my vote now...
I picked "stay with HRE", but I didn't really think about it when I did it. Now, I realize it's a pretty weak choice, but some of your alternatives would have me put HRE over them anyway! :eek:

Charlemagne is a really cool leader and all, but the HRE was never much of an "empire" or even a "country". It was pretty much a confederacy. But then again, everyone seems to think Ancient Greece was a "country" or "empire" when every city was independent and had its own laws and rulers.

Out of the other 12 or whatnot choices you picked, I only feel like three of them are warranted, and I'm not trying to be western-centric (although I am admittedly about 1000x more interested in European history, if only to figure out how it became the dominant continent).

Austria Very important country back in the day. While admittedly, the Austrian populace is very similar to the Germans (hell, I don't even consider them to be different peoples), their empires (or the German's lack of) were different. It's worth arguing on whether or not you would include -Hungary as that was more important and made A-H a world power pre-WW1, but the Hungarians were of slavic descent and a very different people, complete with their own monarch. Do you represent them in unity at the height of their power and glory? Or do you represent them seperately?

Hitties. First people to wield iron weapons. Honestly, I don't even know anything else about them, but that's pretty important in and of itself. I'm pretty sure they went out and conquered a good piece of Earth though.

Israel. Sure the country is modern (would actually be the most recently founded country in the game, correct?) but the people have been around influencing history forever.

My attempts at hating your other choices? ...
Poland. Okay, honestly, there must be something I don't know about this country if everyone really wants it in but... It has seemed so unimportant to me when you compare it to some other civs in the game. No offense meant...

Italy. Rome? What you want Mussolini to have his own country? Italy before that was all small sovereignties...

Prussia. Sure, let's get every Reich in there! Deutschland uber alles! You know with this choice with Otto and Freddy both getting moved here, this just paves the way for Hitler... Which is a second reason this would never happen.

Sweden/Denmark. Umm, this is the same ethnic identity as the Vikings. Personally, I'd rather see "The Vikings" renamed to Scandinavia, because then maybe you could have the appearance of a king from after the renaissance when Sweden was a world power again, but eh. Curious on why you didn't list Norway? Did you think they were more Viking-y?

Random African Civ. With the exception of Ethiopia, which I'm pretty sure is going to be included, I feel Mali, Ethiopia, and the Zulu represent Africa well enough compared to how much it has influenced the world so far. They are all pretty distinct cultures. You could maybe get Songhai in there, but correct me if I'm wrong (Africa is the continent I'm least familiar with) that would be a little redundant with Mali.

Polynesia. While that section of the globe is admittedly a little blank currently, has any of those islands enhanced your life?

Brazil Big country, has a distinct national identity, but how much has it influenced history outside of Brazil? Coffee exports? Sure, I would like to include another South American civ, and this is DEFINITELY the one I would pick (I don't know much about native tribes from the continent) but I think there are others that could be included first.

Venezuela. Pretty much summed it up with Brazil.

A Slavic Nation. I don't any Slavic region is large enough to be uniformly identified (hell, they are still killing each other now... Kosovo?) and historically relevant other than Hungary. Which I noted earlier, could be realistically included jointly with Austria as that entity became very powerful up until 1914.


Phew, that was long. If there one country that went unlisted I would maybe -- but definitely not before some others -- include Vietnam. they have a distinct culture and are the fourth largest identity in that region next to China, Japan, and Korea. But they are still recent and have minor (but still significant) effects on history. I'd really rather see Siam or an older kingdom from that region. I have a strong feeling a country from this region will be appearing in BtS however.

Once again, I am admittedly not very knowledable on history outside of Western Europe and the Mediterranean, so take my opinions with a grain of salt (which should of everyone's, regardless).

HRE is still in the lead. Its seems that the problem isn't that people hate it, but that people want their home country/region included and refuse to admit that anything else should be in its place.

HRE is still in the lead. Its seems that the problem isn't that people hate it, but that people want their home country/region included and refuse to admit that anything else should be in its place.


I assume you are talking about me? I also assume you know nothing about Australia.

the Hungarians were of slavic descent

What a lie! :crazyeye:
The Hungarians or even called Magyars were a nomadic tribe coming from asia. They speak a very unique language, which is very different to the slavic languages around it (like croatian, serbian or ukrainian). ;)
The only languages I know, which are relatives of the hungarian are estonian and finish (suomi) ;)

No Chugginator I wasn't talking about you personaly, but about 76.47% of the people here.

No Chugginator I wasn't talking about you personaly, but about 76.47% of the people here.

How can you possibly know that 76.47% of people here voted for their own country? I'm the only one on this page as far as I can see.

A Slavic Nation. I don't any Slavic region is large enough to be uniformly identified (hell, they are still killing each other now... Kosovo?) and historically relevant other than Hungary. Which I noted earlier, could be realistically included jointly with Austria as that entity became very powerful up until 1914.


Again Hungary isn't Slavic, It's a Magyar country.

And also Serbia is fighting the Albanians in Kosovo and Albanians aren't Slavic either.

And i take insult at your post stating that we're still killing each other. I don't see myself sniping some russians on the streets of poland.

I'd love to see some choices that arn't in most other historic games. Mainly, Poland, Australia, and (of course), Canada! Those nations have never been done before, to my knowlege and if they have the game must not have been very big. I think it would be fun.

I'd love to see some choices that arn't in most other historic games. Mainly, Poland, Australia, and (of course), Canada! Those nations have never been done before, to my knowlege and if they have the game must not have been very big. I think it would be fun.

They had the perfect opportunity too, with Beyond the Sword. Alas, it was not to be... :(

They had the perfect opportunity too, with Beyond the Sword. Alas, it was not to be... :(

Because of the damned HRE.

Yes an odd choice indeed the Holy Roman Empire. I still wonder why not Assryia, a great war civ , or maybe start thinking a little more over the top like in the movie the 300- stretch the visual a bit and take one of those eastern european civs and have some kind of Vlad the Impaler imagery,
(gothic?) maybe a good gothic HRE will work. But still no Assryia? They could have had a Siege Engine UU with a giant bull head or something.
But i voted "another Slavic nation" on the poll.

HRE is still in the lead. Its seems that the problem isn't that people hate it, but that people want their home country/region included and refuse to admit that anything else should be in its place.

you hit the nail on the head! It's like watching the European Song Contest, where everyone is favoring it's neighbours (because there they cannot vote for themselves!) :lol:
You've got my sympathy, LastOne36, but if you're not looking from a biast point of view, Poland surely doesn't deserve to be in the game more than some other nations stated in your poll or the HRE... ;)

I think the problem isn't that the Holy Roman Empire wasn't important, of course it was, it lasted for a thousand years and introduced important political and logical reforms, the real problem is that most people just aren't exited about it. They rather have an exotic civ that is located in an underrepresented part of the world or a civ that is more related to their own culture.

Personally I can agree with those reason, but objectively looking HRE was fairy important, but what set it apart from civs like Poland or Austria is Charlemagne. He certainly should be in the game and he doesn't fit Germany or France.

HRE is still in the lead. Its seems that the problem isn't that people hate it, but that people want their home country/region included and refuse to admit that anything else should be in its place.

I won't lie, I'd love Canada as a civ :P But I'd be (almost) as happy with a choice like Poland or Austrailia, because it's just so different. I don't mind HRE, for that reason, but I'd rather have one of the three I've already said.

I think it'd be funny to have a Pimp civilization, run by PimpyMicPimp.... if for no other reason than it'd be really funny to hover the mouse over a city tile and see "100% Pimp."

:joke:

I think it'd be funny to have a Pimp civilization, run by PimpyMicPimp.... if for no other reason than it'd be really funny to hover the mouse over a city tile and see "100% Pimp."

:joke:

That is also an acceptable compromise. If only I could use XML/Python/WhateveritisIneedtomod...

but what set it apart from civs like Poland or Austria is Charlemagne. He certainly should be in the game and he doesn't fit Germany or France.

Then Venezuela would be in because of Simon Bolivar!

Then Venezuela would be in because of Simon Bolivar!

While Simon Bolivar is an interesting leader did he ever succeed in actually creating a nation or leading one for a reasonable amount of time? Didn't he only lead several independence movements, but not one specific nation? I'm not an expert in South-American history or politics so please enlighten me if I am wrong. :)

EDIT: Also it seems hard to pinpoint him to one specific nation. I mean William of Orange obviously never lead The Netherlands, but at least his family did and his work did lead to a nation. But, Bolivar, can be linked to various nations can he not?

[snip]

Austria Very important country back in the day. While admittedly, the Austrian populace is very similar to the Germans (hell, I don't even consider them to be different peoples), their empires (or the German's lack of) were different. It's worth arguing on whether or not you would include -Hungary as that was more important and made A-H a world power pre-WW1, but the Hungarians were of slavic descent and a very different people, complete with their own monarch. Do you represent them in unity at the height of their power and glory? Or do you represent them seperately?

Just a nitpick: the Hungarians are not Slavs. They speak a Fenno-Ugric language.

Holy Roman Empire? So, in one game there'll be Germany AND Rome. The Roman people and Holy Roman people? Oh dear...

Let's have the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. No no no, you see, the civ in the game is ENGLAND. That hasn't been a country for hundreds of years. There is no British or UK civilization in the game; therefore we should add it, even though it takes the same territory as the original England civ.

We should also have the Third Reich. Also the Weimar Republic. They are not Germany. Also Prussia. We should also have the Soviet Union, since that was different from Russia.

While the Holy Roman Empire was significant, I don't think it should be in. First of all, it occupies where Germany historically is (that's why I'm like, we should have the Soviet Union, the UK etc.). Also, it has almost the exactly same name as another civ! In the game there would be Roman Empire, and Holy Roman Empire...just...gah

While Simon Bolivar is an interesting leader did he ever succeed in actually creating a nation or leading one for a reasonable amount of time? Didn't he only lead several independence movements, but not one specific nation? I'm not an expert in South-American history or politics so please enlighten me if I am wrong. :)

EDIT: Also it seems hard to pinpoint him to one specific nation. I mean William of Orange obviously never lead The Netherlands, but at least his family did and his work did lead to a nation. But, Bolivar, can be linked to various nations can he not?

He would of but he died young.

And Venezuela was were he was born, and back the Venezuela was the most powerful.

Holy Roman Empire? So, in one game there'll be Germany AND Rome. The Roman people and Holy Roman people? Oh dear...

Let's have the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. No no no, you see, the civ in the game is ENGLAND. That hasn't been a country for hundreds of years. There is no British or UK civilization in the game; therefore we should add it, even though it takes the same territory as the original England civ.

We should also have the Third Reich. Also the Weimar Republic. They are not Germany. Also Prussia. We should also have the Soviet Union, since that was different from Russia.

While the Holy Roman Empire was significant, I don't think it should be in. First of all, it occupies where Germany historically is (that's why I'm like, we should have the Soviet Union, the UK etc.). Also, it has almost the exactly same name as another civ! In the game there would be Roman Empire, and Holy Roman Empire...just...gah


I agree 100% with this guy.. having the Roman Empire and the Holy Roman Empire is stupid.. I'll have to mod one of them into Italy or something.. but even then it's still not good having Rome and Italy in the same game.

Anyway the point is that this was a bad decision by Firaxis.

33 "Stay with HRE"!

Wow, Israel's about to overtake Poland...

I'm not hot and bothered by this issue. However, reading through this thread and others, it appears as though Firaxis may have added HRE because they wanted the leader in. I'd say that is not a very good reason.

What Firaxis could have done (and what modders should be able to do) is create leaders that aren't assigned to any particular civ. Since in BtS one can play any civ with any leader, Charlemagne could be played as Germany, France or whatever civ suits your fancy. The same goes for some other leaders that don't fit exactly with the civs as they are defined in the game.

I would've preferred just about anything. Even Canada. At least Canada is a coherent identity and there are definable Canadians. There was never such a thing as a "Holy Roman"...

We now have 34 civilizations. I can easily think 11 civilizations that could still be added without being ridiculous. These are not all known or valued in west (=US/UK), but they would deserve more respect.

1. Assyria
2. Hittites
3. Maoris/polynesians (that area has no representation in the game)
4. Huns (Mongols are in the game, so why not huns. Attila would be cool leader)
5. Poland
6. Dacia
7. Kingdom of Kongo
8. Scythians / sarmatians
9. Austria
10. Mapuche/Araucanians (South America deserves more representation )
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mapuche
11. Hungarians

And yes. I think every one of them would have been better than HRE.

I don't know about Huns, The seem like there represented by Mongols to me.

And why didn't i think about Assyria?

Because Assyria's represented by Babylon.

i can see why a lot of people (like me) are angry, because they put the HRE in place of other more deserving civs. thats too bad. maybe no Pho this time, Civ. :(

Holy Roman Empire? So, in one game there'll be Germany AND Rome. The Roman people and Holy Roman people? Oh dear...

Let's have the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. No no no, you see, the civ in the game is ENGLAND. That hasn't been a country for hundreds of years. There is no British or UK civilization in the game; therefore we should add it, even though it takes the same territory as the original England civ.

We should also have the Third Reich. Also the Weimar Republic. They are not Germany. Also Prussia. We should also have the Soviet Union, since that was different from Russia.

While the Holy Roman Empire was significant, I don't think it should be in. First of all, it occupies where Germany historically is (that's why I'm like, we should have the Soviet Union, the UK etc.). Also, it has almost the exactly same name as another civ! In the game there would be Roman Empire, and Holy Roman Empire...just...gah

Well, Firaxis wants Elizabeth I in as a game leader and it wouldn't be historically correct if she led "Great Britain" or the "United Kingdom". So that's why that civilization is England and not Britain.

I think most people are interested in REGIONAL representation. That's why most people don't want HRE because they feel it is already represented by the presence of France and Germany.

I don't mind it because I know that it occupied more than France and German and included northern Italy and the Low Countries. But I can see why people will be pissed off.

Personally, I think the inclusion of Austria or Israel or another regional power would be more appropriate.

But whatever.

Considering that HRE is winning, with the next most popular choice having just over half the amount of votes as HRE has, it was obvious a popular request which is why Firaxis chose it. And since HRE is on the bottom it
is probably less noticable, so who knows maybe more people would have voted for it.

Imagine how many more people would be angry if they chose one of the other civs. Now if people would actually agree on an alternative to HRE...

Considering that HRE is winning, with the next most popular choice having just over half the amount of votes as HRE has, it was obvious a popular request which is why Firaxis chose it. And since HRE is on the bottom it
is probably less noticable, so who knows maybe more people would have voted for it.

Imagine how many more people would be angry if they chose one of the other civs. Now if people would actually agree on an alternative to HRE...
How do you figure? I see 136 votes for everything but HRE, and 44 for it. Seems to me people simple want ANYTHING else...

How do you figure? I see 136 votes for everything but HRE, and 44 for it. Seems to me people simple want ANYTHING else... I think I would almost perfer anything else.

Lance of Llanwy- I can say the same for any of the civs because they all have LESS support than HRE. The next highest choice is Poland, and I see 158 votes for anything but Poland. So your logic that was suppose to prove me wrong fails. The point is HRE still has the MOST support, almost twice as much as the next highest, despite being on the bottom of the list which makes it harder to notice and the fact that some pro-HRe might have ignored the thread because they thought HRE wouldn't be an option. As long as HRE has the most votes it IS the most popular, at least among members of civfanatics.

How do you figure? I see 136 votes for everything but HRE, and 44 for it. Seems to me people simple want ANYTHING else...

This is some terrible logic. The fact is if firaxis stumbled upon this thread they would be happy with their choice of the HRE. What i think NYHunter is saying is that people should eliminate the other possibilities: like Italy Switzerland and others and agree on one country that would be a better choice than HRE.

Africa wasn't minor. it had great empires etc. Same as any other continent well sorta.

yeah......:crazyeye:

I would rather play with the HRE than any of these other Civilizations, historical fairness be damned. :P

Lance of Llanwy- I can say the same for any of the civs because they all have LESS support than HRE. The next highest choice is Poland, and I see 158 votes for anything but Poland. So your logic that was suppose to prove me wrong fails. The point is HRE still has the MOST support, almost twice as much as the next highest, despite being on the bottom of the list which makes it harder to notice and the fact that some pro-HRe might have ignored the thread because they thought HRE wouldn't be an option. As long as HRE has the most votes it IS the most popular, at least among members of civfanatics.

Well, I'm sure there's a lot of people who'd rather have Poland or Vietnam than the Netherlands. I'm also sure there's a lot of people who'd rather have Israel or Polynesia than Portugal. But we don't see a lot of people putting up threads or polls complaining about those 2 civs. My impression isn't that people think Portugal and the Netherlands are the perfect choices, but they feel those are decent choices, even if they might have prefered a different civ.

The general tone of posts is that not only do people think HRE isn't the best choice, they think it's an inferior choice. They might have Poland as their favorite, but they might also feel Burma, Swahili, Brazil or Polynesia would make a better choice. Someone whose favorite is Brazil might feel similarly. With such a low percentage supporting the HRE in this poll, I don't see how you can take it as vindicating the choice of Firaxis..

People aren't voting HRE because they wanted it. There voting on it because there ok with it. They would prefer something else but there fine with HRE. Barely anyone wanted HRE because they love having them in the game.

And i think it became pretty clear that Fireaxis wanted to include the leader not the civ.

And i think it became pretty clear that Fireaxis wanted to include the leader not the civ.

in an attempt to satisfy everyone... but in the end satisfying no one. :)

People aren't voting HRE because they wanted it. There voting on it because there ok with it. They would prefer something else but there fine with HRE. Barely anyone wanted HRE because they love having them in the game.

Don't put words in the mouths of the people who voted for the HRE. Just because you would like to see it that way and decided to interpret the results as such doesn't make it true, champ.
There are enough people who really like the HRE and think it should be in the game. I'm getting sick of people who keep complaining about its inclusion.

Stay with Holy Roman Empire, i like it :) from games like Medieval 2: Total War and Europa Universalis III. Holy Roman Empire is a great empire for Medieval times.

In vanilla i normally play randon maps, so this idea of "overcrowed" Europe means nothing to me, i want options and exotics civs ( and for me HRE is not the same as Germany or France ). I am only missing Austria in this expansion :( too bad ( take Sumeria out and put Austria XD ).

Okay, I just want to make my self clear because I think there was a misunderstanding my point is that if HRE has 25.40% at the time of the post with the next highest struggling to get 13%, than Firaxis does not need to worry about the vocal anti-HRE, because Firaxis understands that they have already included all the major civs like China, India, France... no matter who they add in next there will be a large vocal group opposing them.

:thanx: Exactly my point. Everyone wants to complain about HRE. But there are also lots of people who say they think Israel or Poland is the dumbest (or perhaps I can use the word "inferior" as it was used above) choice possible, that it is silly to think that just because so many people hate HRE that they will all gladly accept anything else. Some will say that but that doesn't apply to everybody.

This is some terrible logic. The fact is if firaxis stumbled upon this thread they would be happy with their choice of the HRE. What i think NYHunter is saying is that people should eliminate the other possibilities: like Italy Switzerland and others and agree on one country that would be a better choice than HRE.

People aren't voting HRE because they wanted it. There voting on it because there ok with it. They would prefer something else but there fine with HRE. Barely anyone wanted HRE because they love having them in the game.Don't put words in the mouths of the people who voted for the HRE. Just because you would like to see it that way and decided to interpret the results as such doesn't make it true, champ.
There are enough people who really like the HRE and think it should be in the game. I'm getting sick of people who keep complaining about its inclusion.

I like the HRE!
It was on my wishlist for Warlords :)
I never believed they will include it but I'm very happy now, sorry. But it's not my fault, so don't blame me :cool:

I like the HER!
It was on my wishlist for Warlords :)
I never believed they will include it but I'm very happy now, sorry. But it's not my fault, so don't blame me :cool:

Lol at first i though you said I Like her.

Anyway i believe i should've said some people instead. Because there are people who are happy with HRE. But seriously if people wanted something new, HRE wasn't what they were planning for.

Oh and You can't complain about HRE having a 1000 year history. Many nations did. Poland did as well so what makes HRE so much better then Poland?

Lol at first i though you said I Like her.
[...]

hehe - lol, sorry for the typo!

Hmm. Israel is now the number one alternative Civ...

I hope Firaxis pays attention when the time comes for the next round (either expansion 3 or Civ 5). :)

Yes me to. I Hope the Petition Ldeska made will actually make fireaxis consider Poland.

But seriously if people wanted something new, HRE wasn't what they were planning for.

HRE is new in the history of the civilization games, and it is very diferent from the others civs, it is a "confederacy" of kingdoms and it has a lot of diferent culture. This is new :) . Charlemagne for itself is a good reason... and well, all your options a lot of people would hate too, if they were chosen.

( if Firaxis add Isreal a lot of people will say "WTF A SINGLE CITY CIV!? Õ_o? CIV XYZ IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN ISRAEL!!!111!" )

Poland did as well so what makes HRE so much better then Poland?

because Poland isn't in civ. yet. ;)

I think people need to stop "reinterpreting" the results. The question is, "What Civ would you prefer?" and when someone answers, all you know for certain is that they either prefer that one Civilization over HRE, or they prefer the HRE over all the other listed Civilizations. The results don't tell you much about how people generally feel about the HRE, because someone who likes a Civilization more than HRE might still like the HRE; and someone who voted for the HRE might prefer another Civ more than HRE, but votes HRE because his favorite Civ isn't in the list.

If you want to determine how people feel about the HRE, then you have to ask the right question. Try, for example, "Do you think the HRE is a good choice for a Civilization?" "Yes." "No." That would tell you if people think it is a good choice--nothing more, nothing less.

I didn't read ur post i just skipped it to say that having 1 or another is enough having both is to much. (for 1 expansion)

Yeah, because all that stuff about inventing the wheel and starting off the rise of civilization isn't important. At all.

^^
:rotfl:

Somebody had to say it. I'm glad you did.

True but it is a given that most people will say no. As it is a given that most people will say no to just about every civ since all the major ones like Rome, China, India are already in...



If you want to determine how people feel about the HRE, then you have to ask the right question. Try, for example, "Do you think the HRE is a good choice for a Civilization?" "Yes." "No." That would tell you if people think it is a good choice--nothing more, nothing less.

call it what you want but i simply can't understand why so many people are backing the inclusion of HRE.
i think the same people would cheer if firaxis add sea-people, escimoes, atlantis, elves or other historical crap to the epic game...

What about those Charlemagne was indeed the ruler of ? the Franks ?

After all, outside the Byzantines and the Arabs, there's not that many civilizations in the game representing that period of History between 500 AD and 1000 AD.

That is an unfair thing to say. The HRE was actually a state that existed for centuries throughout histroy and had a level of importance while sea people and elves are fantastic beings, atlantis regardless of whatever evidence you pull out is nothing more than legendary. So to say one will applaud the others is very poor in my mind.

call it what you want but i simply can't understand why so many people are backing the inclusion of HRE.
i think the same people would cheer if firaxis add sea-people, escimoes, atlantis, elves or other historical crap to the epic game...

That is an unfair thing to say. The HRE was actually a state that existed for centuries throughout histroy and had a level of importance while sea people and elves are fantastic beings, atlantis regardless of whatever evidence you pull out is nothing more than legendary. So to say one will applaud the others is very poor in my mind.Yeah, but the Holy Roman Empire is just medieval Germany, and Germany is already in. Cities are the same, culture is the same, religion is the same... only historical era is different.

On a side note, for the guy that said "the HRE is winning", the poll only allowed ONE selection. Had it been a multiple choice poll, "Which civs do you feel would have been better added than the HRE?", I think you'd see the HRE getting thumped.

I selected Israel, but I would have also been happy with Dai-Viet (rather than the Khmer :crazyeye: ), Poland, Austria-Hungary, Tibet, Lithuania, Scotland, Ireland, Canada, Brazil, Mexico, Switzerland, or Cuba.

The HRE was slightly less centralized than the EU. The Emperor fought a tiny, insigificant war for _30 Years_ against itself. Henry VIII was almost elected Emperor! And what will the "nationality" be for it? Holy Roman?

Yea, but that is irrelevant to the argument I was engaging in with the other poster who was claiming that supporters of HRE would gladly accept things that have little or no evidence to support their existance.


Yeah, but the Holy Roman Empire is just medieval Germany, and Germany is already in. Cities are the same, culture is the same, religion is the same... only historical era is different.

Duuk, I see where you are coming from. But, that claim can go both ways. Maybe someone who voted for another Africa civ would also like HRE as well and vote for both. In fact, I voted for Africa civ and would probably also vote for HRE if I was allowed to vote for more than one choice.

P.S. At least we both agree on Dai-Viet. :)

Err, why do people want Poland?! As far as I know, all they have done is exist for a while, get conquered by Germany, get conquered by Russia, then resume existing? :confused:


Also, Israel is a modern country. To include it over Canada or Australia wouldn't be right, as the ancient Israel is represented by Judaism.


Only Polynesia, Hittites and Austria even deserve a chance to be in out of your rather lackluster options.

I think that Poland is much better than HRE :mad:

I think that Poland is much better than HRE :mad:

Why???????

Yeah, but the Holy Roman Empire is just medieval Germany, and Germany is already in. Cities are the same, culture is the same, religion is the same... only historical era is different.

Could it be said that the Holy Roman Empire is the First Reich and the German Empire (under Bismarck) is the Second?

Could it be said that the Holy Roman Empire is the First Reich and the German Empire (under Bismarck) is the Second?

You could indeed, but ( at least in Germany, dunno how this is elsewhere ) it is quite unpopular to do so. Some PC thingy.

But the HRE is about the Germantic tribes(Franks , Saxons, ect), not the country Germany. Seeing as most of Europe durring the early middle ages were Germantic tribes fighting and trying to rule the former citizens of the Roman empire and native peoples of central and western Europe.

Yes, it is quite confusing - but the HRE is generally seen as the predecessor to the "Bismarck realm" . Not that I agree, this just seems to be the common point of view.

SIAM/THAILAND! Yes we have Khmer(the primitive prcursor to Siam actuallty) already for SEA but if Europe can have 8+ civs and you have Rome/Byzantines, Germany/HRE, Celts/France/Britan I dont think another 1 or 2 for SEA will threaten the European bias that this game has solidly built in.

But the HRE is about the Germantic tribes(Franks , Saxons, ect), not the country Germany. Seeing as most of Europe durring the early middle ages were Germantic tribes fighting and trying to rule the former citizens of the Roman empire and native peoples of central and western Europe.The Holy Roman Empire is not an Empire of the early Middle Age. It's an Empire of High Middle Age and Renaissance.

Israel is in secound. yipee!:bounce:

Not by much. 3 points only. Earlier today Poland was winning by 5 points.

I say it's a tie.

Australia.

Not by much. 3 points only. Earlier today Poland was winning by 5 points.

I say it's a tie.

No, I say that Israel is winning.;)

I am so sick of all these threads being taken over by people complaining about Poland not being in and then bashing any civ chosen over them.

At first I really didn't care if Poland got in or not but now because of all the people whining about them I am just turned off the idea of them being in at all.

No, I say that Israel is winning.;)

I am so sick of all these threads being taken over by people complaining about Poland not being in and then bashing any civ chosen over them.

At first I really didn't care if Poland got in or not but now because of all the people whining about them I am just turned off the idea of them being in at all.

And I say that the HRE is winning, big time. ;)

I agree with you about the Polish obsession, though.

which Israel is winning? the Ancient Civilization or the modern state?

from the many polls it looks like the whiners are a minority and Firaxis took the most popular decision. It's interesting noting how whiners always have the impression to be a majority because whining is generally more noisy than beying silent and satisfied with devs decisions, hence they start new polls all the time hoping to change devs' minds, but these polls only prove them wrong once more... so my tip for whiners is: just don't put the option that is against what you're whining in your polls :lol:

from the many polls it looks like the whiners are a minority and Firaxis took the most popular decision. It's interesting noting how whiners always have the impression to be a majority because whining is generally more noisy than beying silent and satisfied with devs decisions, hence they start new polls all the time hoping to change devs' minds, but these polls only prove them wrong once more... so my tip for whiners is: just don't put the option that is against what you're whining in your polls :lol:If you don't like whiners, then please stop whining yourself.

I'm really curious by the way about the reason making you so happy to have a High Middle Age's and Renaissance's Germany ruled by an Early Middle Age's Frankish king.

Isreal's been coming up and I think it's going to stick in secound.

The later part of the HRE is pretty much Austria, so i go for them. i really would like to see Poland or Serbia or some slavic nation just for some inkling of equality.

HRE is a joke, we already have a german empire

HRE is a joke, we already have a german empire

Yes, HRE is not a nation and not a civ. Austria would been better.
Karl the Great is from the Franconian Rich, not the HRE.

Aronnax, your an idiot. The Holy Roman Empire is not a German Empire, it is a catholic Germanic one. If you can't tell the difference them you have the intelligence of a piece of Camembert.

Aronnax, your an idiot.


Lol. Don't you mean you're an idiot?

ah isn't germany catholic to?

Chugginator, Hi-five. Also, where in australia do you live, please not melbourne, I hate victorians.

ah isn't germany catholic to?

it's a 50/50 thing with the Christians in Germany (the south is more Catholic; north > Protestant).
Protestants 27.1 M (32.7%)
Roman Catholics 25.905 M (31.4%)

source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Germany

hmm ok. and i'm assuming the rest are either Orthadox, or another religion like islam.

hmm ok. and i'm assuming the rest are either Orthadox, or another religion like islam.

No 29,6% is not religious. (According to wikipedia)

No 29,6% is not religious. (According to wikipedia)

jeha, the east germans ;)
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bild:Konfessionen_in_Deutschland.jpg

Heathen!

j/k

Holy Roman Empire On Bts No!!!No Holy Roman Empire In [civ4] Bts!!!

Hah it seems poland's catching up to isreal.

I say Poland...ONLY IF they have glass bottom boats in their naval units.

*rimshot*

No, I say that Israel is winning.;)

I am so sick of all these threads being taken over by people complaining about Poland not being in and then bashing any civ chosen over them.

At first I really didn't care if Poland got in or not but now because of all the people whining about them I am just turned off the idea of them being in at all.


Sadly, that is the same feeling i am getting. :(

I mcuh rather perfer new ideas to the game get added rather then getting all new civs. New civs are a plus, but I want to play BTS for the things added to the game.

Well if Poland does make it then your not gonna hear people whining ;)

I myself am tired of all the Polish threads. There perfectly fine but the racist and ignorant people that post in them is what ruins it.

Relax LastOne. PC zealots like you give me a headache.

POLAND!!

Israel would be a distant 2nd, anyone else in a far distant 3rd, so long as they don't repeat a current Civ like HRE does.

Israel, no contest. That's assuming Ethiopia and a SE Asian civ will be in (we already know the latter will).

i agree, or Austria in a very strong second

Well if Poland does make it then your not gonna hear people whining ;)

Hmm, you bring up an interesting point. People are complaining that HRE is too similar to Rome and that Poland is a logical favorite for a deserving addition instead of HRE. The whining is against HRE, the solution is Poland.

What if Poland was in it? No one would be whining about HRE, and few would probably whine about Poland (no more than people whine about their preferred Civ being omitted now).

In other words, pro-Poland members are coming off as being whiney about a lack of Poland, when the average player probably would shrug it off should they be included, all because of the cause: a second Roman Empire - which is clearly ridiculous.

Hmm, you bring up an interesting point. People are complaining that HRE is too similar to Rome and that Poland is a logical favorite for a deserving addition instead of HRE. The whining is against HRE, the solution is Poland.

What if Poland was in it? No one would be whining about HRE, and few would probably whine about Poland (no more than people whine about their preferred Civ being omitted now).

In other words, pro-Poland members are coming off as being whiney about a lack of Poland, when the average player probably would shrug it off should they be included, all because of the cause: a second Roman Empire - which is clearly ridiculous.

if u r trying to replay the HRE with a European civ, Austria would come before the bumbling poland anyday.

if u r trying to replay the HRE with a European civ, Austria would come before the bumbling poland anyday.

And what's about Kingdom Poland-Lithuania in 1500?

And what's about Kingdom Poland-Lithuania in 1500?

You answer yourself. It was not Poland alone.

It was Poland alone.
The Kingdom of Poland of the Jagiellons was the Polish state in the years between the death of Casimir III in 1370 and the Union of Lublin in 1569. Between 1370 and 1385, the Kingdom was ruled by the following Angevin kings:

* Louis I of Hungary
* Jadwiga of Poland

After the Union of Krewo, the following Jagiellons ruled:

* Wladislaus II Jagiełło
* Wladislaus III of Varna
* Casimir IV the Jagiellonian
* John I Olbracht
* Alexander the Jagiellonian
* Sigismund I the Old
* Sigismund II Augustus

In 1569 Poland became part of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth (which I thought you were referring to) and in that period Poland wasn't on its own. I've never seen a resource that Poland was officially more dominant.

And maybe I would have liked to see Poland in, but as Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth not only "Poland". Then it would certainly have been a nice addition. But we have to accept the choices that are made.

if u r trying to replay the HRE with a European civ, Austria would come before the bumbling poland anyday.
Point is, Poland, Austria, Israel, Easter Island for all I care... would be better than a 2nd version of any current Civ.

i wish they had 4 german leaders,

Bismark, Frederick, Charlemagne, and Maria Theresa to represent all of germany instead of putting in a second german empire.

Hmm, you bring up an interesting point. People are complaining that HRE is too similar to Rome and that Poland is a logical favorite for a deserving addition instead of HRE. The whining is against HRE, the solution is Poland.

If Poland had been included in Vanilla Civ IV , I would have been surprised but not cared much one way or the other. But this incessant barrage of demands that Poland be included has completely turned me against the idea. I might even abstain from buying a version of Civ that included Poland because I don't want this kind of nagging to be successful. Not that I think I'll ever have to make that decision.

i wish they had 4 german leaders,

Bismark, Frederick, Charlemagne, and Maria Theresa to represent all of germany instead of putting in a second german empire.


Maria Theresa was Austian

HRE!!!!!!!!!!! Argh!!!!!!! why couldnt they have added the polish?!!!

No but seriosly you guys i was wondering on (inevitably its gona be made) Earth 34 maps where are they going to place the HRE?...... will it be in betweem Rome and Germany, Germany and Russia or Germany and France. Any way i just dont see how it can be done with the netherlands as well, europe will literaly be chocked to death even on Genghis-Khias 24 Huge Earth map.

Thread merged with an existing HRE thread. -- TF

yea and the inca have all of South America to themselves.

The leaders are:
HRE with 76
Israel with 40
Poland with 34
Austria with 31
It looks as if Israel has pulled out of reach and is a lock for 2nd and Austria will pass up Poland in the next few days.

Why were no SE asia civs included in the poll?

Why were no SE asia civs included in the poll?

YA!!! WHY NO PHO?!?!?!?!?!?!

Why were no SE asia civs included in the poll?

Compared to this list any SE asia civ are insignificant :D


PS save five, Switzerland, Brazil, Venezuela/Gran Colombia,

Compared to this list any SE asia civ are insignificant :D

something about this guy makes me very very :mad:... :)

i wish they had 4 german leaders,

Bismark, Frederick, Charlemagne, and Maria Theresa to represent all of germany instead of putting in a second german empire.

Maria Theresa is from Austria. :mad: And for Austria as a civ Franz Josef would be better.

1st of all i'm talkign about all of the german nations.

2nd of all we get another female leader i'm hoping they make hot ;)

TheLastOne36... i'm beginning to think you have something of an infatuation with the females of this here game... :)

I chose African civ, whether it be the Moors or the Berbers or another Arabian leader.

Israel, definitely, since I'm half Jewish.

Please... (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=228634) :)

Tibet! Free Tibet from the harsh genocide of Mao and the current communo-fascist state of China! Firaxis, show your support for a free Tibet and despisement of the Communist party of China and all Communist parties worldwide!!!!!

Long live Democracy! Long live Freeedom!

Personally, I would have included Israel too. And maybe the Huns, maybe. And Poland- With all of the threads and discussions and (if CFC was a country) organized rallies on them, I can't believe Firaxis didn't put them in.

And maybe the Huns, maybe.

Thing with the Huns is, they didn't actually settle anywhere. Sure they made camps, but the way I see it, they're pretty much a defined Barbarian civ.

and with a Huns Civ who would the barbs be anyway?

leave that to us Viets. and, oh, wait, we're not even on the barbarian list! what a SHAME!!!!!!!!!!!

why is polynesia on the city list anyway? They weren't Barbs.

well, theoretically, barbs usuablly can also include "minor civs", "less developed civs", "civs no one has ever heard of", "civs we put in instead of minor nations like Poland", etc.

:)

well, theoretically, barbs usuablly can also include "minor civs", "less developed civs", "civs no one has ever heard of", "civs we put in instead of minor nations like Poland", etc.

:)

The khan of kielbasa is about to kill the khan of Pho. How dare you? :backstab:

but its true, you know. they put in the "Kassites" instead of the Polish, the "Aoigfaese" instead of the Viets. they missed the Congonese, the Axumites, the Songhainese, the Mughals... tons of important civs not in civ are being missed! its a shame.

The mughals ruled the vast majority of the indian subcontinent for centuries... of course they're just some minor tribe!

I didn't put in a SE asian civ as it's to replace HRE for the expansion. And we already have a SE Asian civ in the game.

they didn't put in the *right* SE ASIAN civ. ;)

Oh may Pho please be in the game fireaxis? PLEASE pleas, to make this Pho-freak shut up, Please !!!!

HRE wins,
but israel is on second place? :eek:

I'd vote for Israel too if Poland wasn't on the list.

Switzerland has the fewest votes - and yet everyone hides their money there! :lol: :lol: :lol:

HRE :goodjob:

Switzerland has the fewest votes - and yet everyone hides their money there! :lol: :lol: :lol:
lol

i'm glad to see this thread hasn't developed into another quote wars!

Why aren't the Franks on this list? It would be a great alternative to the HRE.

It would be a better Alternative, But not a great one. I'd rather have Prussia instead.

Prussia = Germany.

Germany is just what Prussia renamed itself after it conquered all of the German states except for Austria.

And what would Bismark be then, Germany or Prussia?

Germanic.

(10 chars)

maybe they shold have a "Germanic" civ next time... then we can have barbarian leaders, medieval crusader leaders, early modern leaders, and... no Hitler, of course.

Prussia isn't only Germanic, it's also German (not early Prussia). It's Deautschlander (sp?). Anyway, the point still stands that Germany was simply Prussia's name change from when it took over most of Germany.

Frederick and Bismarck were both Prussian but Bismarck made Germany into one nation-state. So his rule (well Wilhelm's rule technically) was the transition from Prussia to Germany.

Woah talk about a bump. :D

Hey, what about the Kurds?

And Saladin could be their leader with someoen else leading the Arabs

And Saladin could be their leader with someoen else leading the Arabs

Holy thread resurrection batman!

Twice, check out my post two up ;)

I don't understand the point of having the HRE AND Germany...the same could be said, though to a lesser extent, about Rome and Byzantium, or Babylon and Sumeria.

I mean why not have England and Great Britain (I personally would love the nation represented at it's 19th century peak...which would include scotland, wales, and at least Northern Ireland), or Russia and the Soviet Union or Persia and Media or maybe the Seljuk and Ottoman Turks?

Let's get some real diversity in the game. Poland and Israel both have better claims IMHO.