Let's talk about some new BtS info that isn't HRE related:

The effect of Shwedagon Paya has been announced as giving access to all religious civcs. Personally I think Shwedagon Paya doesn't sound all that great as you usually get access to the most of the religious civcs early on. Although early Free Religion can be useful for the research/happiness bonuses and getting rid of the diplomatic penalties with other civs (might be able to keep Isabella from attacking you). As well Free Religion might possibly make you immune to the effects of the Apostolic Palace.

I much rather see a wonder that gives access to all of the economic or legal civics.

It could be very strong, but it depends on what tech is needed to be able to construct it. It would be very useful if you can build it early on so you don't need to research specific religious techs when you only need them for the civics.

Theocracy at the game beginning would be great for war times...

don't underestimate the power of a early FR or theocracy... My only fear is if the tech that enables it will be to soon or to late to be properly usable :(

Yeah I never thought about early theocracy.

Boudica + Romans + Early theocracy = scary

Virulent:
I much rather see a wonder that gives access to all of the economic or legal civics.

Of the 5 sets of civics those are the two that I would least like to see made accessible by an early-game world wonder.

Economy:

None of the advanced economy civics are unlocked until the mid game. Giving a single civ access to all of them from the early game is just too much of an advantage while every other civ is stuck in decentralisation. On the other hand if it's a later wonder - post banking, pre communisim - it would be quite good.

Legal:

By removing the CS slingshot from the game Firaxis have made it clear that they won't be allowing early bureacracy - it's a massive advantage to have. Maybe making the wonder available with civil service would be a good period to introduce it.

Labour:

I wouldn't be surprised to see such an early-game wonder introduced. 3 of the researched civics are activated relatively early. Access to early double growth cottages would be a nice compliment to the more powerful specialist economy accessed by the Pyramids.

Religion:

I'm quite happy with the Shwedagon Paya. Most of the civics are accessed in the first half of the game and the one that isn't will open up some interesting options - most of which you've highlighted. I'd add to the list that free religion's science bonus could be run concurrently with monastries' science bonus.

Yeah I never thought about early theocracy.

Boudica + Romans + Early theocracy = scary

Why does every new strategy that is suggested after a new discovery start with: Boudica + Romans + [...]
:lol:

Why does every new strategy that is suggested after a new discovery start with: Boudica + Romans + [...]
:lol:

I think people want to see a Preat vs Agg/Char smashdown :p

Because its already a bit unbalanced. Combat I PLUS Prateorians (:strength: 8 city attackers, and civ is all about cities) plus quickie promotions thru Charisma.

I am a bit disappointed, since all religious civics except for Free Religion already come early and I usually avoid Free Religion because it renders Sankore University and the Spiral Minaret useless, but I wager you will only need Buddhism to build Shwedagon Paya and it will be much cheaper than the Pyramids...

I am a bit disappointed, since all religious civics except for Free Religion already come early and I usually avoid Free Religion because it renders Sankore University and the Spiral Minaret useless, but I wager you will only need Buddhism to build Shwedagon Paya and it will be much cheaper than the Pyramids...

That'll only be right and also it will make it a powerful early wonder on par with Pyramids (for value) and Stonehenge.

That would make meditation Very nice, especially since OR +Theology are on the Polytheism line.

...I wager you will only need Buddhism to build Shwedagon Paya...
I doubt it- Firaxis have made it clear that neither the religions or wonders in the game are literal representations of their real-world versions. After all, the University of Sankore- a centre of Islamic learning- is available to all civ of all religions. It seems unlikely that they would decide to tie this particular wonder to a religion.
Unless by "Buddhism" you meant the Meditation tech, in which case I can agree.

By that logic, Sistine Chapel and Hagia Sophia could only be built in Chrtian cities

Im almost afraid its too much, To have this because if theres a wonder that gives every civic like that, it will be easy to build those wonders and have all the civs in the classical era.

To be honest, i dont like the pyramids giving everything because its just too abusive. i mean its pretty hard to beat a decent opponent with pyramids, and id like to see it scaled down some...

I just hope that this wonder don't come too early, i don't expect it to be as powerful as Pyramids but making it appear too early would make a civ which build both Shwedagon Paya and Pyramids really powerful....... imagine with Spiritual trait!

Two wonders early? Seems more like a death sentence than overpowerered IMHO

R_Rolo1:
Two wonders early? Seems more like a death sentence than overpowerered IMHO

Make them both expensive wonders and make them both available with masonry. That way you only have a realistic chance of building both if you're willing to leave your civilization chronically underdefended or underfunded (or are playing on too easy a difficulty level).

i dont think it'll be linked to buddhism but rather meditation, because if buddism is founded by the civ who discovers Divine Right(if no one else wants it) then it will be quite useless

I actually like the idea of this wonder coming with meditation, or even being available to some people right from the start. Some people wouldn't use it, but I can see a few ways that I'd exploit it right off the bat.

First if I managed to get multiple religions (luck or playing on low level) I'd be able to use FR to get a really nice bonus to my culture and head for the cultural win. I already do that sometimes if I manage to get several religions early enough and need to expand my borders quickly against a nearby oponent.

And pacifism . . . +100% GP birth rate right from the start? Use this right away to pop out my first great prophet and begin letting my civ grow outward without lowering my science rating. Combine it with an early (undervalued by the AI) stonehenge to make those city radius' grow quickly, and spam out some workers . . . and you may have the makings of a new slingshot.

Theocracy too . . . get the first religion out, cut off the AI from infecting you with his religion, and open your borders to spam him with missionaries. That could be a powerful strategy in those first few turns, depending on how they do the Apostalic Palace and early Diplomatic victory. It has potential.

It all depends on how early you can start building the wonder and how much it costs. If you can start on it in the first tier of the tech tree it could be EXTREMELY useful.

I can just picture egypt with the Stone Henge Shwedagon Paya combo . . . that's almost scary. Especially if your using a Philosophical leader in multiplayer. I'm thinking Elizebeth of the Egyptians. Philosophical financial for an early Great Prophet/Money rush, and with all those extra priests from the automatic UB in every city. . . . OUCH.

Unless by "Buddhism" you meant the Meditation tech, in which case I can agree.
Yes, I meant Meditation and not Buddhism.
Come to think of it, the wonder might be really useful. If you are the first to research Meditation you have a religion and with the wonder you get the civics and can completely ignore the Polytheism --> Monotheism --> Theology research for a long time.

I wonder if gold will speed it up. there is a lot of gold on that pagoda. Probably not.

Philo civs with early Pacifism will be powerful running scientists.

It sounds nice to me. Religious civics are the ones I most change through the game, so having them all since the beginning is great.
People say most of them are available since soon, but I often skip religious techs.

If this is indeed an early wonder, I think being able to adopt Pacifism early will be huge....

That extra unit maintenance from adopting pacifism would be a much bigger deal in the early game when your economy isn't yet fully developed.

True Thedrin, but that's providing your playing as a warmonger. In the earliest portion of the game you don't have a ton of units to maintain, and if your a peaceful builder type it could indeed be huge.

Early on no barbarians can enter your city radius, so you get one of the early religions. Rush out Pacifism and grab the first Great prophet way early, use that to build your Shrine.

Then you switch to another civic and start throwing out settler/missionary/warrior combos. Spam out a few workers, and use the added resources to build up your economy and gain a tech lead for more science production (from all those cities).

If your really lucky and get several religions you might have money coming in hand over fist by the time you need those military units. They did say BTS was going to give the peaceful builder some teeth.

The other civic I change to might be Theocracy for better war production and to keep enemy religions out, or Orgranized religion to rush out some other wonder, or it could be Free Religion for a money/science boost. There are a lot of options here for a spiritual leader who doesn't plan on going to war early.

Depending on some luck (an early goody hut, or a wonder you didn't get) you might even stay with pacifism and rush out a few more techs from great prophets, or add those GP to your capital for an early game production/money rush.

Even if your a warmonger, you might not want Pacifism, but I can see some of my friends rushing to Code of Laws, trading for a bunch of techs, and then running Theocracy without researching it first.

If the Shwedagon Paya is going to be a early wonder ( who knows... maybe it will appear with Maths :p ), I would use it to FR ( that 10% bonus on research could be game breaking) or for Theocracy ( those extra XP... You know why ;) ), not for Pacifism ( unless I have a Phi leader...)

Yup, that is the IF, providing this is early there is no doubt it could be huge. If it's late it will be mostly useless.

Right now I'm assuming early on, giving firaxis the benefit of the doubt. I don't think they would put in a wonder that opened up all the civic options for religion anytime near or after Theocracy/Code of Laws.

We'll just have to wait and see.

Oh my goodness oh my gracious!
Shwedagon Paya sounds like a veritable gamebreaker in the hands of Ramses. His traits (Spritual and Industrious) would make the Paya quick to build and quick to switch civics once built. People have already mentioned the EARLY-game Pacifism GP rush (with Stonehenge provided Obilisks and Priests) but even more frightening is the idea that his UU (The War Chariot) could be combined with Theocracy and made NIGH UNSTOPPABLE!
I am very pleased with Firaxis, I think they are adding incredible new depth to the game for players of all types. As something of a builder / religion fanatic, the Paya and the Palace will be staples of my new conquests.

Or maybe Gandhi swimming in Great People :D

True Thedrin, but that's providing your playing as a warmonger. In the earliest portion of the game you don't have a ton of units to maintain, and if your a peaceful builder type it could indeed be huge.

I get barbarians entering my territory around 2000 BC. Long before the Pyramids are built (and I'm working on the assumption that the Shwedagon Paya will have a similar build time). Even accounting for the zero upkeep of pacifism, just building city defenders and a small barbarian defence force will be very expensive. I don't deny that it's potentially powerful but the risks involved are great.

IbnKhaldun:
Oh my goodness oh my gracious!
Shwedagon Paya sounds like a veritable gamebreaker in the hands of Ramses. His traits (Spritual and Industrious) would make the Paya quick to build and quick to switch civics once built. People have already mentioned the EARLY-game Pacifism GP rush (with Stonehenge provided Obilisks and Priests) but even more frightening is the idea that his UU (The War Chariot) could be combined with Theocracy and made NIGH UNSTOPPABLE!
I am very pleased with Firaxis, I think they are adding incredible new depth to the game for players of all types. As something of a builder / religion fanatic, the Paya and the Palace will be staples of my new conquests.

Ramesses already has great synergy with the Pyramids if you want an idea of how powreful the above would be (using police state).

That's why I would like the Shwedagon Paya to have the same costs and starting technology as the Pyramids (masonry); so that it will be very difficult for one civilization to get both.

The resource that doubles the production speed could be gold or possibly gems. If they don't go down that route, then probably just stone.

Also, archaeologists believe it was built sometime between the 6th and 10th centuries, but according to Buddhist records, it was built before Sitharta Gutama died in 486 BC. It won't be much of a wonder if it doesn't become available until the middle-ages, but if they go with legend and make it a classical age wonder, it will have a lot of potential uses indeed. I would aim to found as many religions as possible, spread them to all my cities, go FR, build lots of monasteries, and also spread my religions as much as possible for uber shrine income. This could actually open up a whole new kind of economy.

I wonder how many GS I can produce with Gandhi or a Phil Leader with this wonder, especially before CS, If I can get more then 5GS I can make a Direct beeline to Liberalism.

1 for Academy
1 for Philosophy,
1 for Paper
2 for Education

How ever many for Liberalism as long as I ignore Machinery... crazy...

Early Pacifism could also be very powerful if you use it correctly:

Ofc a Philosophical leader (Alex would be good here) +100%
Mix-civ UU: Praets and Forum, then giving an additional +25%
With Pacifism ofc you will gain 225% great person birth rate in the end.

I don't know which kind of GP points the Paya will produce, but I think it would be Prophet... Fast Prophets creating Religion Wonders, inducing a lot of money, balancing the large unit upkeep cost from Pacifism a bit. Then with a good lot of Great Persons (And National Epic for 325% Great Person birth rate), amassing Golden Ages OR Super Specialists, balancing the economy in that way.

Eventually more Wonders would be build and you would receive a whole . .. .. .. .ing lot of commerce, research and eventual production with Pacifism.

And the good thing is... You got Praets. They have no actual counter except the rare War Elephant, which I think is more expensive. And with Alexander, you see, they will receive a flat 10% Strength bonus from Combat I, making them very hard to beat. They will be able to raze cities in lesser numbers, not screwing your economy too much because of Pacifism.

Early advantage, that is. Watch it. Later, if Pacifism becomes too much, you'll switch to another Civic, Free Religion fx.

I hope the SP is enhanced by stone, so if I have stone I can go for both pyramids and SP. Although that is heavy-lifting early on, having representation + pacificism earlyish without having to lightbulb philosophy is pretty sweet imo and you could easily play catch up by going PS + theocracy first to expand your territory and then switch into rep + pac.

In general though I think the SP will be cool. early theocracy will probably be its main use although if you end up with a diplomatic nightmare (multiple religions on your continent with aggressors or issy or something) then early FR could be nice.

I get barbarians entering my territory around 2000 BC. Long before the Pyramids are built (and I'm working on the assumption that the Shwedagon Paya will have a similar build time). Even accounting for the zero upkeep of pacifism, just building city defenders and a small barbarian defence force will be very expensive. I don't deny that it's potentially powerful but the risks involved are great.



Ramesses already has great synergy with the Pyramids if you want an idea of how powreful the above would be (using police state).

That's why I would like the Shwedagon Paya to have the same costs and starting technology as the Pyramids (masonry); so that it will be very difficult for one civilization to get both.

Build The pyramids with Stone and Inudstious and chops and use the Great engineer on Paya.

Reprecentation + Pacifism + War chariot's conquest ROAR...:D

That extra unit maintenance from adopting pacifism would be a much bigger deal in the early game when your economy isn't yet fully developed.

Well, I disagree with this because Pacifism requires no maintence cost, unlike Organized Religion which is high, and in the early game your military is so small that the 1 gold per turn per unit will not make that big of a deal. It won't be any more expensive than OR is in my opinion, and it will make it way easier (and earlier...) to pump out the first few great people, and as we already know, early great people are game breaking...

That's why I would like the Shwedagon Paya to have the same costs and starting technology as the Pyramids (masonry); so that it will be very difficult for one civilization to get both.

It would in fact make it easier to get both wonders if you just need one tech.
Meditation would be better because Meditation and Polytheism both give you a religion and after researching one you won't need the other any time soon.

I'm beginning to see the uses of Shwedagon Paya especially if it comes pretty early. However I can see that most people won't end up building both Shwedagon Paya and the Pyramids unless they are lucky. I'm pretty sure the AI will be gunning for one or the other.

I still want to see a Wonder that gives access to the Financial civics but it would have to come in late Renaissance or early industrial to avoid it being overpowered yet still useful.

I still want to see a Wonder that gives access to the Financial civics but it would have to come in late Renaissance or early industrial to avoid it being overpowered yet still useful.

In any case such a wonder should not come earlier than Banking or one tech before Banking because it would be way too strong in combination with the Pyramids (Representation with Mercantilism).

Good Sarmatian:
It would in fact make it easier to get both wonders if you just need one tech.
Meditation would be better because Meditation and Polytheism both give you a religion and after researching one you won't need the other any time soon.

Playing at an appropriate difficulty level, I find it hard to imagine that a civ could achieve both (if the Shwedagon Paya is suitably expensive). However I'm not rigid on it being made available with the same technology. The point behind that was to make it so that both wonders would become available at the same time - so that a civ wouldn't have a time lapse between when they could afford to start building either. But since all civs don't follow the same path down the technology tree this is unnecessary. I imagine priesthood will be the required technology.

To me, it looks like it needs Metal Working...

That would be interesting, you can get all the religious civics by ignoring the religions, so a Non religious civ can go for Free Religion, so as to avoid the diplo penalties, and still get some happiness.

Well, I disagree with this because Pacifism requires no maintence cost, unlike Organized Religion which is high, and in the early game your military is so small that the 1 gold per turn per unit will not make that big of a deal. It won't be any more expensive than OR is in my opinion

I strongly disagree. You don't spend more than a few gold on civics in the early game, and only around a fifth of that is for the religious civic. If OR is too expensive, Paganism is not an unreasonable option early on, and its base cost is barely more than that of Pacifism even *before* you take the unit cost into consideration. However, you certainly do need several military units unless you want to be overrun by barbarians. If Pacifism causes each of those units to cost you 1 gold, it's costing you several gold per turn - I doubt OR would cost more than 1 or 2 gpt early in the game, whereas Pacifism will effectively cost you 3+ (most likely much more). It is MUCH more expensive than any other religious civic, *especially* early in the game when conventional civic costs are pretty low. It also precludes any significant early war. Early Pacifism would be crippling until the arrival of the first Great Person, and you'll already have had to invest tonnes of hammers to build the wonder.

If Pacifism causes each of those units to cost you 1 gold, it's costing you several gold per turn.

Pacifism does NOT cost you 1 gpt per unit, unless you play Deity, on the lower levels the maintenance costs for units (just like those for civics) are discounted.

I wonder if gold will speed it up. there is a lot of gold on that pagoda. Probably not.

Philo civs with early Pacifism will be powerful running scientists.

"Built after the discovery of Meditation and Aesthetics, the Swedagon Paya can be constructed twice as quickly with Gold."

You called that one!:lol:

I agree. At first reading, this wonder doesn't seem that cool. But thinking about it for a moment, even with one religion an early free religion is still a +10% tech boost to all cities AND no relations penalty with the AI, meaning trading with anyone and everyone. If you grab this and Oracle you could have a massive technology lead early, especially if "AI Cheat Like Mad" ... I mean "Tech Trading" is turned off.

Pacifism does NOT cost you 1 gpt per unit, unless you play Deity, on the lower levels the maintenance costs for units (just like those for civics) are discounted.

Heh. So there's me never having used it, due to the way it's described by the manual, Civilopedia and civics screen. It makes perfect sense in gameplay turns for it not to affect unit upkeep for the first few units, but as far as I've seen, it doesn't tell you this *anywhere* in the game. Grr. No wonder people use it all the time. I was always wondering how anyone could afford to... :crazyeye:

Originally Posted by mice View Post
I wonder if gold will speed it up. there is a lot of gold on that pagoda. Probably not.

Philo civs with early Pacifism will be powerful running scientists.
"Built after the discovery of Meditation and Aesthetics, the Swedagon Paya can be constructed twice as quickly with Gold."

You called that one!

Yeha, i called it ! Good on Firaxis for making resources more interesting than they already are.

I think it's a great improvement for anyone running a SE while being Industrious, rather than Philosophical, since you will build this wonder easily most likely, and get Pacifism very early on. Probably less wonderful otherwise.