I have been playing OCC games as the Byzantines, exploiting the scientific trait to its fullest to achieve ever-earlier launch dates.

In a recent game, it seems everything went right. I've been to lazy for a full write-up, so this summary will have to do.

First, I got an SGL with the discovery of Writing. Rushing the Pyramids in 2630 BC provides a very nice economic boost from tourism in late Ancient Times and early Middle Ages.

Next, my carefully-selected scientific rivals pulled each of the first three middle-age techs, for which I traded before getting my own free tech, Theology. This is important because I head straight for Astronomy to get Cop's as soon as possible. The AI also did well enough to research Gunpowder by the time I researched through Free Artistry, allowing me to go straight into Chemistry.

When I reached the Industrial Age, my free tech was Steam Power. This time, the AI are left in the dark. I use the middle branch of IA techs to extend my lead. As the AI reached the IA on their own, none pulled Medicine as their freebie. Since the AI concentrates on the government techs, this keeps Scientific Method out of their reach as I research all the way through Motorized Transportation.

Enter the Modern Times. My free tech was Computers. The AI pull each of the other three techs, for which I am able to trade. Completion of ToE grants me Space Flight and Miniaturization, and I'm on my way to Robotics. Two more SGLs (from Democracy and Replaceable Parts) rush SETI and the UN.

The AI managed to get Synthetic Fibers and Satellites for me. I was also able to trade for Superconductor after researching about half of it on my own.

This launch date will be nearly impossible to beat, but I'm still gonna keep on pressing. My goal is to clip it by 4 or 5 turns, at which point I will be satisfied.

I have some questions for occ:
Where is the ideal starting location? (located near other civs, on an island, etc.)
What government is recommended?
How do you prevent the AI from attacking you since your military is so weak?

Color me interested too. Could you post some screenshots, especially since you didn't say the difficulty or version you played on?

Just checked out the save. 858 beakers from a single city--impressive! I see you've got a lot of tourism income from those early wonders as well. How many SGLs did you get, anyway? Looks like you had to build the spaceship fast enough to avoid winning by 20k, too--you were only 8 turns away when you won.

@drakdan: It's Conquests on monarch.

Ideal starting location depends on desired victory condition. In any case, you'll want freshwater, preferably a river.

For space race victory, you'll want to be on the coast so that you can build the Colossus. You'll want cattle and hills for growth early on and higher production once you reach population limits. The ideal location might be two cattle on grasslands with 6 hills and a couple of bonus grasses, all that on the coast with a nice river. You can probably guess how often you get something like that. I launched in 1675 with the start pictured here.
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a190/DMathias/IdealStart.jpg

Government: Republic (Monarchy for conquest victory - half the unit costs)

Be nice to the AI, and the AI will be nice to you. Well, most of them, that is.

I could post some screenshots. In fact, I could post a detailed write-up of the entire game, as every turn was archived with CivAssist II. I might still do that, if there's much interest.

I had a total of 3 SGLs. Generally, if I get the first one early enough, I'll rush the Pyramids, otherwise I save them for SETI and UN, although I may rush Newton's if prebuilding isn't an option. The modern wonders are just that important. I rarely get more leaders, although in one game as the non-scientific Netherlands, I had seven.

Avoiding cultural victory is often an issue with the space race. After rushing the Pyramids, building the Oracle was a bit of a gamble, esp since the Great Wall and Great Lighthouse are a clinch during golden age. That's all part of the game, though. If I want to launch in 1595, I'll need all the tourism (not to mention luck) that I can get.

I've done better then that. One time as Rome I got SGL rushed pyramids, got a settler from goody hut, managed to research code of laws and then philosophy which allowed me to get republic as my free tech (was able to do this because the massive population bonus pyramids gave me).

I then spent the rest of the game up until I quit in the industrial era fighting every single civ on my continent in a non stop war, so I kinda wasted my good start, but it was worth it. And ever since then I've been a war mongler lol:))) it was huge map btw so I had no chance of winning against the other civs, I just kept a huge military lead over them and razed half their cities.

In that case, you have not done better. Huge maps have higher tech costs, making OCC space race excedingly difficult, if at all possible.

You managed a Republic slingshot on a huge map with only one city? What difficulty level was that?

Huge military lead? Not with only a single city, at least not before you've razed most of their cities.

Take a look at the save to see what I'm talking about, then tell me if you've even come close.

No I meant I had more lucky things happen to me (free republic and free city), and I had a ton of cities, not one. And emperor difficulty level, only one I play.

What's OCC btw?

Oh, and I get scientific victories all the time on huge maps, or atleast I would if I didn't quit playing so soon:P

OCC = One City Challenge. If it isn't obvious, that means you only have one city for the entire length of the game.

This thread isn't so much about being lucky, because it isn't really luck. If you play enough games, you'll eventually get the results you want. This thread is about that game, except what I wanted was to launch four turns earlier.

I think you can have a faster finish date if you would have gifted your scientific buddies into each age and drew the right techs as your freebie. You don't want Communism or Fascism for sure, you probably want Industralization since you don't want Electricity cheaper too soon. In the modern age, you'll need quite a bit of luck to have the other scientific tribes pull all 4 first-level techs with your tribe hopefully getting Space Flight. I pulled all 3 industrial ones on the first 3 tribes in my recent OCC Monarch space game and drew Industrialization. Irregardless of all this, 1675 makes an extremely impressive OCC launch date even if it relies on a lot of luck.

I dunno about the gifting into the IA and modern times - the worry there is that he'd lose a space race to a larger AI.

Larger does NOT imply a faster researcher necessarily. Check here http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=281179 especially the screenshots in posts 7 and 11 to show you that I've already done this (on Monarch... on Emperor it of course comes out more risky), and some of the screenies in 18. Germany had the most territory basically from start to finish... I think they even founded their second city first. Korea struggled with research most of the game. They ended up 3rd in territory, and before the Babylonians and Greeks got exterminated, I think they sat at 5th in territory. Even before they had The Internet, Korea had become my closest competition in the modern age. The first line of post 16 reads "In 1782 I notice Miniturization has dropped to 1 turn. Korea has it." I still beat Korea to Miniturization, but even if I hadn't, I could have just swapped my pre-build on the last part and/or micromanage for production to finish before they do. The AI doesn't pre-build a spaceship part, so you have a little window to finish off the spaceship if they beat you to the last tech. Also, remember that the longer the game goes on, the more they develop and you don't develop more in an OCC game. So, if you don't gift them in and get their techs ASAP, you'll give them more time to develop.

Gifting the AI into the MT is absolutely necessary for an early launch. Self-researching all of the required modern techs is possible, but takes a considerable amount of time.

Gifting the AI into the IA, however, is not a good idea. By letting them lag behind, I was able to get two modern techs from ToE. This is due in part to the AI not pulling Medicine as a scientific freebie (I chose 4 scientific and 3 non-scientific rivals, making this more likely). Also during this age, I stifle their economy by selling techs at exorbitant gpt prices.

By the way, if you think 1675 is impressive (it is), you should note that the save attached to the first post has a phenominal 1615 launch date.

OCC = One City Challenge. If it isn't obvious, that means you only have one city for the entire length of the game.

This thread isn't so much about being lucky, because it isn't really luck. If you play enough games, you'll eventually get the results you want. This thread is about that game, except what I wanted was to launch four turns earlier.

I can't win holding to only 5 cities. You are amazing. On Civ 1 I once won with 2 cities plus a third city off and on depending on if I needed a port but I haven't come close on Civ III.

I think I need to try it on regent level and see if that works.

Did you use Mapfinder to get your start position, generate your own map, or was the resource RNG extremely gracious to you?

I can see how not gifting them into the industrial age might help in principle... I certainly haven't gotten that late of a build on Theory of Evolution in any game I've played under any conditions though, so I'll have to take your word for it. If you can get Theory of Evolution one turn after you enter the modern age, and if you gift enough AIs into the modern age and with quite a bit of now rather improbable luck I'd think, you'll jump 7 techs into the modern age 1 turn after you enter it. If you have enough production to really crank those parts out that fast, that could imply a fairly fast launch date. However, with that much luck involved one can easily start to say that such a thing like fastest launch date depends quite a bit on luck instead of skill... and skill I think comes as more the point.

Winning requires skill. Winning early requires skill and luck. No amount of skill will increase the likelyhood of getting an SGL with Writing or pulling the right techs as scientific freebies. The earliest launch does indeed depend quite a bit on luck, but skill is still needed to take full advantage of such good fortune.

As for getting modern techs from ToE, you don't have to take my word for it. I have attached saves from this game (1415 AD) and from my emperor game (1455 AD). In both cases, this was only possible due to the AI not having Medicine. The emperor game had random rivals, three of them scientific. The results from that game lead to my eventual selection of four scientific rivals.

To answer timerover51's question, I created my own program to automate the Quick Start process, as I was having trouble with Mapfinder.

Thanks for the saves. I have trouble with mapfinder also. Do you still have that program around?

It seems everyone agrees The Byzantines as "the" best tribe for an OCC space game. It's not just their traits... it's that you can use the Museum of Mausollos to trigger the golden age soon enough after you do The Republic slingshot. This also makes me think of them as possibly "the" best tribe for a 20k game, OCC or otherwise. Although, I think Persia has the best 20k games in the hall of fame, I think. Any thoughts on that?

The program was a hack. All it did was save a screenshot of the start and copy the autosave. It worked well enough the first time I ran it, but changes to the code have caused it not to work at all. I haven't bothered to fix it.

Babylon is generally considered best for 20K. Having built the Oracle first, the Mausoleom of Mausollos will also trigger their golden age.

What does SGL mean?

Thanks

Welcome to CFC. :banana:

The abbreviation SGL is for Scientific Great Leader. In C3C you have a small chance to get one each time you are the first civ to discover a tech. It's the only way you can rush-build a Great Wonder (in Vanilla/PTW a Military Leader could do that, but in Conquests they changed it).

Mathias,

Any chance you have the 4000 BC save for this or the seed number?

Here are the 4000 BC saves for the game summarized in post #1 and for the start location pictured in post #5.

Thanks Mathias!

I think a 1500 launch date may well come as theoretically possible on Monarch. Unfortuantely, you'll almost surely need an improbable set of events to occur for this to place. Actually, I wonder if an OCC game on Chieftain would go faster. You might enter the middle ages a little slower (then again tech costs less, so maybe not) and you can't trade for Invention, but everything comes cheaper. So, I'd suspect a Chieftain OCC space game could go a lot quicker. Then again, getting first level techs in the modern age might work out as much harder, since you won't have cash to buy anything.

I just finished the game below. I didn't have any barbies around. I did have *mass regicide* on so that I could make early contacts and so I could delay using the luxury slider and concentrate on research. Writing started at 43 turns, I got in 30 some turns. Atlantis went wealth-worker-The Colossus. I *reloaded* a few times (random seed off) until I popped an SGL on Writing. 6 to 9 turns later I finished The Colossus and SGL rushed the Pyramids. I also ended up SGL rushing the Temple of Artemis and ended up building (I think I also SGL rushed The Great Lighthouse and bulit every other one) every ancient wonder except the Statue of Zeus and The Great Library. Someone got Invention for me one turn before I learned Free Artistry. I forgot about the commercial dock and didn't build it until I had Atomic Theory, so maybe I could have shaved a turn off that way. I also didn't have coal until very, very near the end, so I couldn't build the spaceship parts as fast I might have. I also messed up the TOE build, so that I built it like 4 turns after I entered the modern era. I got all first level techs in all three eras getting Theology, Industrialization, and Space Flight as my free techs. I've played 3 or 4 other OCC space games (where I've hand-bulit ancient wonder) where I've gifted the AIs into the industrial era and the AIs never seem to even start TOE before I get very close to the modern era. Things might go faster if I had Japan instead of Korea or Greece or Persia or The Ottomans.

I played one game where I modded the game so I could build The Colossus anywhere and tried the "parade of cattle" start. The only problem there, though, comes as that the AIs seemed to barely research any ancient level techs, so after going Writing-CoL-Philosophy-The Republic-Literature, I had to research all four of Construction, Currency, Map Making, AND Polytheism as I recall.

Playing with huts on at Cheiftain level might enable things to go faster. Oh... in the below game I timed Museum of Mausollos to finish a few turns after I entered the middle ages so I had my GA while researching Education and Astronomy.

do you get great library in occ spaceship challenge?

No. The Great Library gives you a good deal of culture for how much it costs to build. No doubt you can build it and still launch, but it's better to build more wonders with less culture which also don't cost as many shields (The Great Lighthouse and The Great Wall come to my mind). I build the wonders for tourist commerce and for happiness and my golden age (the Museum of Mausollos gives you both happiness and your golden age with the Alterans... I mean Byzantines).